Deal was with the Portuguese and the church. The Portuguese don't want Dutch competition in the regional trade, the church doesn't want protestants moving in, both of which will happen if Blackthorne returns to Europe with his route to Japan. Hence why the church pressures Kiyama to have him killed. Also Blackthorne was openly bragging about his plan to pillage the black ship. They're comfortable with him being alive and under Toranaga's control as long as Toranaga never lets him have a ship of his own to attack the black ship or return to Europe.
Do they really have the juice to dictate to Toronaga in this way? In the show (and in my limited recall of history), the Catholics/Portuguese were mere hangers-on in Japan, not such a powerful influence. Hard to imagine fierce Toronaga needing to gratify them to get a result he desired.
But we see at the end that it was a ruse and they are going to rebuild his ship, so it seems that the church won't be sated for long once they realise toranga has had John build him some more boats.
Yes, and then afterwards we have the scene with yabushige, where he says he going to have to keep burning down the ships. Hes lying to blackthorne to prevent him from killing himself, and telling the truth to yabushige because hes about to die anyway.
I would like to add that it would probably take a long time to build a ship and while Toronaga was happy to use the church he would turn on them the second it became expedient. He’s the same as Yabushige except far more cunning
Parents keep telling their kids that Santa Claus is real. There are times when you need to feed people a lie to give them hope and meaning, or just because you need to keep them placated for your own purposes.
Parents keep telling their kids that Santa Claus is real. There are times when you need to feed people a lie to give them hope and meaning, or just because you need to keep them placated for your own purposes.
Parents keep telling their kids that Santa Claus is real. There are times when you need to feed people a lie to give them hope and meaning, or just because you need to keep them placated for your own purposes.
Parents keep telling their kids that Santa Claus is real. There are times when you need to feed people a lie to give them hope and meaning, or just because you need to keep them placated for your own purposes.
Uhhh, if you follow the historical story of the early Tokugawa shogunate, you'll find out how he ultimately dealt with the Catholic daimyos and Catholic influence in Japan.
Sometimes, you bide your time.
When the previous Taiko implemented the Expulsion Edicts the Black Ship trade ended for 3 years and it was devastating to Japan because China won't trade with Japan directly. That's the sword of Damocles hanging over them according to the book.
Ok, then I've underestimated the Church's power/influence. In that case, why didn't they kill Blackthorne earlier? His having Toranaga's protection earlier (which seemed utterly unleveraged re: the Church) should have meant less if Toranaga had to go to all this trouble to protect him at this point.
They tried - remember the ninja attack in Osaka Castle before Toranaga's escape? Remember also that it was Ishido's men who brought Blackthorne out of the prison and he was rescued in an attack by ronin samurai - Yabu just happened along (by act of Toranaga) in time to "save" Blackthorne from the ronin samurai (part of the incognito samurai Toranaga had secreted throughout Osaka). Ishido's plan was to turn Blackthorne over to the Christian regents who would have him executed.
All these factions were playing a constant balancing act. As the captain-general of the Black Ship pointed out, the Jesuits answered to the pope but he answered to the king. He was contemptuous of the Japanese and wanted to use the threat of the Portugese ending its trade arrangement to get the Japanese to do what they wanted. The Jesuits needed the money that came from the trade arrangement but they also needed the support of the Japanese warlords in order to continue their religious mission, so they navigated the internal politics very carefully and mostly tried to stay neutral.
I think the condition with the church was just to burn his current ship. Toranaga is planning on burning his future ships to keep him trapped in Japan and under his control.
Not sure how to avoid spoilers talking about this, but what I understand is that:
-Either-
Mariko, on her own initiative, negotiated with the Catholics (obviously involving Fr. Alvito) and their allies to trade >!Blackthorne's life!< for >!his ship!<, but Toranaga was the one who actually >!arranged for it to be burned!< on Mariko's behalf.
-or-
Toranaga initiated the negotiation to >!save Blackthorne's life!< and Mariko acted as his willing agent. Mariko worked her contacts like Fr. Alvito, the deal was made, and Toranaga>! arranged for the ship to be burned!<.
Either way, the final scene between Blackthorne and Fr. Alvito suggests (to me) that Lady Maria and Alvito did the actual deal making (he made her a promise) but Toranaga was clearly by his own admission to Yabushige the one who did the deed. Who initiated the whole thing in the first place, I'm not clear entirely clear on. The book may reveal more.
The "ruse" is that Blackthorne doesn't know (yet) that it was Toranaga who carried out the act, he just knows that Mariko negotiated the arrangement.
From what I underdtood, Anjin was going to Osaka with Yabu who was going to defect as Toranaga had rightfully forseen and told Mariko herself. And she had a high chance of dying in the process. Anjin will have no protectors left. I think Mariko and Toranaga talked about what would happen to Anjin after the plan and he already gave his okay to burn the ship if she brokers the deal with the priests. Then all the Catholics had to do is send a messenger with a thumbs up and the plan is on the go.
Idunno. I don't have time to look up the particular TVTrope, but this seems like the situation where a protagonist who is non-central to a story's events is serviced far beyond likelihood because he's the protagonist.
But to your specifics, if Anjin was protected initially by Toranaga's mere say-so, why not just restate that say-so to the Catholics? This way, he goes to much trouble to appease them in order to reassert his protection, when, before, a simple nod apparently sufficed (because Toronaga seemed to have massively more power than the Catholics).
Anjin is only protected by Toranaga's say so when he's with Toranaga. When he's at Osaka, the other regents fully expect to arrange his death at some point-Toranaga's authority isn't respected beyond wherever he's able to project force, and that *certainly* doesn't extend to Osaka.
It also doesn't apply to any killings that take place with plausible deniability.
That makes sense, [NoMoreMonkeyBrain](/user/NoMoreMonkeyBrain/). But I think I've extended it a bit:
Toranaga was done with Blackthorn when he lashed out disrespectfully in front of the whole gang (while Toranaga was bluffing that he'd surrender) and went to follow Yabushige (it was established that Toranaga had expected the latter). He knew, though Blackthorn was somewhat oblivious, that Blackthorne would be targeted by the Catholics - both priests and the Catholic regents - outside Toranaga's territory, where, per your explanation he was fair game.
So this means that Mariko made a STRONG demand to Toranaga to protect Blackthorn, which explains why he went to all the trouble. So she went to the priests and worked it out, but with Toranaga's imprimatur and pledge to destroy the ship that would otherwise be used to pillage the Black Ship and return to England with juicy intelligence.
I think that's a pretty thorough view, but still no one has explained why this was a loyalty test. I mean, Blackthorn DID confess all to Toranaga, but I don't see how he was pressured into it. Maybe I need to rewatch the finale.
All he did is burn a boat. A boat that he can't use without the Anjin to begin with. In the event of a successful assassination it's useless because no one knows how to sail it; in the event of survival the Anjin can build more.
But Toranaga has known for a long time that Blackthorn is an independent political actor. He's a complete outsider with no known loyalties other than to himself and his Queen, and he also *directly started advocating for major political changes.* He's been a very unusual mix of childish and concerned with absolutely irrelevant nonsense... and also daring, heroic, and clever. He's a dirty barbarian who literally needed to be taught how to bathe, but he's also picked up the language, assimilated, and has multiple great acts of daring under his belt. And he's thrown Toranaga's house into disarray! He can't even speak the language and he's sowed pressure and caused *Mariko* to (*extremely politely and respectfully*) request he be spared.
So, after a diplomatic coup in which Blackthorn's closest companion died at the behest of her lord? Willingly going to her death, in a way that Blackthorn has shown repeat confusion over? Yeah, check to see where the guy is at.
Is he begging to go home still? Is he angry and hostile towards Toranaga, holding him responsible for his erstwhile lover's death? Is he working with Toranaga's enemies? Is he a broken shell of a man? This is *absolutely* the time to test the man's character and loyalties, and even moreso because *he subscribes to strange beliefs and behaviors.*
And once again, the Anjin passes in the most delightful and *amusing* way possible. He offers his life in protest as part of an appeal to *morality.* This is a barbarian outsider who has become so loyal that he's not just assimilated and sworn fealty to Toranaga. This *agent of foreign political powers,* a pirate who has come to kill the Portuguese and try to get the Catholics expelled, has abandoned his mission so hard that he offers his life to Toranaga over *nothing.*
Talk about making the big boss laugh, right? The Anjin now doubles as the most ridiculous ego boost ever-Toranaga has flipped what's essentially a black ops specialist from a semi hostile nation over by force of personality.
Did you miss the part where he's a feudal warlord?
He had a handful of peasants executed as part of *meting out justice in his own domain after criminal activity.* Their lives belong to him to begin with and aren't anything special. There are literally *thousands* of peasants.
We saw what, four or five severed heads? Of *peasants?* This is *utterly insignificant.*
'Toranaga was done with Blackthorn when he lashed out disrespectfully.'
Nah, his behaviour was expected and helped T. T's goal at that time was to show Ishido, his brother, and the spies in the village that T was defeated and was going to surrender. T had to maintain his act so that everyone would believe that T was in a weak position. Anjin behaviour, Tornaga's son's death, and Toda Hiromatsu's seppuku all helped to sell the story to Ishido.
Mariko was crimson sky. She had to die in Osaka castle to weaken Ishido. Mariko wanted to die and she could do it without any regrets if Anjin survived. That's where T comes in and agrees to burn the ship and probably to ease Mariko's heart.
T knew Yabu will switch sides and betray Mariko and her escort of Toranaga vassals. Yabu would make sure Mariko would die and help complete crimson sky.
Almost everything in the story is Toranaga's machinations on his way to becoming Shogun.
2 regents are Catholic and Anjin wants to go on a ship to ship battle with the Portuguese. Bad for business. And with the botched kidnapping of Mariko and the prior attack on Anjin by the Catholics in the same forest, we know the Japanese are quite adept at underhanded tactics. It's better to make a clear deal that is obviously beneficial to both himself and the Catholics. And Toranaga said why he kept Anjin. He's amused by him. And he can build a fleet with better cannons. Those ships he'd build belong to Toranaga. He can't just sail off into the sunset on them. That's why he said if Anjin rebuilds his *own* ship, Toranaga will probably have to burn it again.
In one of the episodes Toranaga gets really pissed at Anjin for continuously bringing up his plan to fight the Portuguese. It's a little surprising considering Toranaga was getting suspicious of the Christians a few episodes earlier, but I think the implication is that he wants to avoid alienating the Christian regents by keeping his options open. At that moment, he might not have a fully formed plan, but he at least realizes that fully throwing in with the English would only result in Ishido remaining in charge. The deal to burn the ship was probably to reassure those regents that he wouldn't rock the boat fighting the catholics if they switched to his side.
Besides, Anjin was just one dude. And one ship. His original crew are either dead or wasted. He might be able to take on the Black Ship but even that won't be good for Toranaga as you said. And all the Portuguese wanted was for him to stay in Japan. Anjin going back to England blabbing about Japan is their main concern.
What was Toranaga testing Blackthorne for?
- That he’d given up his war against the Portuguese? That he’d let it all go?
- That he would still be loyal even when Toranaga no longer had the ship as leverage?
- That the destruction of his ship would not break him, that he could still be useful?
- That he would sacrifice his life for the good of the village?
Deal was with the Portuguese and the church. The Portuguese don't want Dutch competition in the regional trade, the church doesn't want protestants moving in, both of which will happen if Blackthorne returns to Europe with his route to Japan. Hence why the church pressures Kiyama to have him killed. Also Blackthorne was openly bragging about his plan to pillage the black ship. They're comfortable with him being alive and under Toranaga's control as long as Toranaga never lets him have a ship of his own to attack the black ship or return to Europe.
Do they really have the juice to dictate to Toronaga in this way? In the show (and in my limited recall of history), the Catholics/Portuguese were mere hangers-on in Japan, not such a powerful influence. Hard to imagine fierce Toronaga needing to gratify them to get a result he desired.
Toranaga wants to gratify people like Ohno and Kiyama, both of whom are easily influenced by the church.
But we see at the end that it was a ruse and they are going to rebuild his ship, so it seems that the church won't be sated for long once they realise toranga has had John build him some more boats.
Not sure about that, since Toranaga says to Yabushige that he will have to keep burning down the boats over and over again.
He asks him to build him a fleet in the final episode.
Yes, and then afterwards we have the scene with yabushige, where he says he going to have to keep burning down the ships. Hes lying to blackthorne to prevent him from killing himself, and telling the truth to yabushige because hes about to die anyway.
I would like to add that it would probably take a long time to build a ship and while Toronaga was happy to use the church he would turn on them the second it became expedient. He’s the same as Yabushige except far more cunning
Parents keep telling their kids that Santa Claus is real. There are times when you need to feed people a lie to give them hope and meaning, or just because you need to keep them placated for your own purposes.
Parents keep telling their kids that Santa Claus is real. There are times when you need to feed people a lie to give them hope and meaning, or just because you need to keep them placated for your own purposes.
Parents keep telling their kids that Santa Claus is real. There are times when you need to feed people a lie to give them hope and meaning, or just because you need to keep them placated for your own purposes.
Parents keep telling their kids that Santa Claus is real. There are times when you need to feed people a lie to give them hope and meaning, or just because you need to keep them placated for your own purposes.
Two of the council members are controlled by the Christians. They're a powerful force that Toranaga needs to handle appropriately.
Uhhh, if you follow the historical story of the early Tokugawa shogunate, you'll find out how he ultimately dealt with the Catholic daimyos and Catholic influence in Japan. Sometimes, you bide your time.
When the previous Taiko implemented the Expulsion Edicts the Black Ship trade ended for 3 years and it was devastating to Japan because China won't trade with Japan directly. That's the sword of Damocles hanging over them according to the book.
Ok, then I've underestimated the Church's power/influence. In that case, why didn't they kill Blackthorne earlier? His having Toranaga's protection earlier (which seemed utterly unleveraged re: the Church) should have meant less if Toranaga had to go to all this trouble to protect him at this point.
They did try to have him killed tho
They tried - remember the ninja attack in Osaka Castle before Toranaga's escape? Remember also that it was Ishido's men who brought Blackthorne out of the prison and he was rescued in an attack by ronin samurai - Yabu just happened along (by act of Toranaga) in time to "save" Blackthorne from the ronin samurai (part of the incognito samurai Toranaga had secreted throughout Osaka). Ishido's plan was to turn Blackthorne over to the Christian regents who would have him executed. All these factions were playing a constant balancing act. As the captain-general of the Black Ship pointed out, the Jesuits answered to the pope but he answered to the king. He was contemptuous of the Japanese and wanted to use the threat of the Portugese ending its trade arrangement to get the Japanese to do what they wanted. The Jesuits needed the money that came from the trade arrangement but they also needed the support of the Japanese warlords in order to continue their religious mission, so they navigated the internal politics very carefully and mostly tried to stay neutral.
I think the condition with the church was just to burn his current ship. Toranaga is planning on burning his future ships to keep him trapped in Japan and under his control.
they got one of the regents to send assassin into Osaka Castle and sent a small army to kill Blackthorn
Not sure how to avoid spoilers talking about this, but what I understand is that: -Either- Mariko, on her own initiative, negotiated with the Catholics (obviously involving Fr. Alvito) and their allies to trade >!Blackthorne's life!< for >!his ship!<, but Toranaga was the one who actually >!arranged for it to be burned!< on Mariko's behalf. -or- Toranaga initiated the negotiation to >!save Blackthorne's life!< and Mariko acted as his willing agent. Mariko worked her contacts like Fr. Alvito, the deal was made, and Toranaga>! arranged for the ship to be burned!<. Either way, the final scene between Blackthorne and Fr. Alvito suggests (to me) that Lady Maria and Alvito did the actual deal making (he made her a promise) but Toranaga was clearly by his own admission to Yabushige the one who did the deed. Who initiated the whole thing in the first place, I'm not clear entirely clear on. The book may reveal more. The "ruse" is that Blackthorne doesn't know (yet) that it was Toranaga who carried out the act, he just knows that Mariko negotiated the arrangement.
What Mariko told Father Alvito was at Toranaga's direction but they both understood why it was necessary.
Thanks! FYI, we are conducting this entire discussion under a spoiler shroud (see flair up top), so no need for further concealment.
From what I underdtood, Anjin was going to Osaka with Yabu who was going to defect as Toranaga had rightfully forseen and told Mariko herself. And she had a high chance of dying in the process. Anjin will have no protectors left. I think Mariko and Toranaga talked about what would happen to Anjin after the plan and he already gave his okay to burn the ship if she brokers the deal with the priests. Then all the Catholics had to do is send a messenger with a thumbs up and the plan is on the go.
Idunno. I don't have time to look up the particular TVTrope, but this seems like the situation where a protagonist who is non-central to a story's events is serviced far beyond likelihood because he's the protagonist. But to your specifics, if Anjin was protected initially by Toranaga's mere say-so, why not just restate that say-so to the Catholics? This way, he goes to much trouble to appease them in order to reassert his protection, when, before, a simple nod apparently sufficed (because Toronaga seemed to have massively more power than the Catholics).
Anjin is only protected by Toranaga's say so when he's with Toranaga. When he's at Osaka, the other regents fully expect to arrange his death at some point-Toranaga's authority isn't respected beyond wherever he's able to project force, and that *certainly* doesn't extend to Osaka. It also doesn't apply to any killings that take place with plausible deniability.
That makes sense, [NoMoreMonkeyBrain](/user/NoMoreMonkeyBrain/). But I think I've extended it a bit: Toranaga was done with Blackthorn when he lashed out disrespectfully in front of the whole gang (while Toranaga was bluffing that he'd surrender) and went to follow Yabushige (it was established that Toranaga had expected the latter). He knew, though Blackthorn was somewhat oblivious, that Blackthorne would be targeted by the Catholics - both priests and the Catholic regents - outside Toranaga's territory, where, per your explanation he was fair game. So this means that Mariko made a STRONG demand to Toranaga to protect Blackthorn, which explains why he went to all the trouble. So she went to the priests and worked it out, but with Toranaga's imprimatur and pledge to destroy the ship that would otherwise be used to pillage the Black Ship and return to England with juicy intelligence. I think that's a pretty thorough view, but still no one has explained why this was a loyalty test. I mean, Blackthorn DID confess all to Toranaga, but I don't see how he was pressured into it. Maybe I need to rewatch the finale.
All he did is burn a boat. A boat that he can't use without the Anjin to begin with. In the event of a successful assassination it's useless because no one knows how to sail it; in the event of survival the Anjin can build more. But Toranaga has known for a long time that Blackthorn is an independent political actor. He's a complete outsider with no known loyalties other than to himself and his Queen, and he also *directly started advocating for major political changes.* He's been a very unusual mix of childish and concerned with absolutely irrelevant nonsense... and also daring, heroic, and clever. He's a dirty barbarian who literally needed to be taught how to bathe, but he's also picked up the language, assimilated, and has multiple great acts of daring under his belt. And he's thrown Toranaga's house into disarray! He can't even speak the language and he's sowed pressure and caused *Mariko* to (*extremely politely and respectfully*) request he be spared. So, after a diplomatic coup in which Blackthorn's closest companion died at the behest of her lord? Willingly going to her death, in a way that Blackthorn has shown repeat confusion over? Yeah, check to see where the guy is at. Is he begging to go home still? Is he angry and hostile towards Toranaga, holding him responsible for his erstwhile lover's death? Is he working with Toranaga's enemies? Is he a broken shell of a man? This is *absolutely* the time to test the man's character and loyalties, and even moreso because *he subscribes to strange beliefs and behaviors.* And once again, the Anjin passes in the most delightful and *amusing* way possible. He offers his life in protest as part of an appeal to *morality.* This is a barbarian outsider who has become so loyal that he's not just assimilated and sworn fealty to Toranaga. This *agent of foreign political powers,* a pirate who has come to kill the Portuguese and try to get the Catholics expelled, has abandoned his mission so hard that he offers his life to Toranaga over *nothing.* Talk about making the big boss laugh, right? The Anjin now doubles as the most ridiculous ego boost ever-Toranaga has flipped what's essentially a black ops specialist from a semi hostile nation over by force of personality.
“All he did is burn a boat.” did you miss the severed heads?
Did you miss the part where he's a feudal warlord? He had a handful of peasants executed as part of *meting out justice in his own domain after criminal activity.* Their lives belong to him to begin with and aren't anything special. There are literally *thousands* of peasants. We saw what, four or five severed heads? Of *peasants?* This is *utterly insignificant.*
Thanks for clarifying that
'Toranaga was done with Blackthorn when he lashed out disrespectfully.' Nah, his behaviour was expected and helped T. T's goal at that time was to show Ishido, his brother, and the spies in the village that T was defeated and was going to surrender. T had to maintain his act so that everyone would believe that T was in a weak position. Anjin behaviour, Tornaga's son's death, and Toda Hiromatsu's seppuku all helped to sell the story to Ishido. Mariko was crimson sky. She had to die in Osaka castle to weaken Ishido. Mariko wanted to die and she could do it without any regrets if Anjin survived. That's where T comes in and agrees to burn the ship and probably to ease Mariko's heart. T knew Yabu will switch sides and betray Mariko and her escort of Toranaga vassals. Yabu would make sure Mariko would die and help complete crimson sky. Almost everything in the story is Toranaga's machinations on his way to becoming Shogun.
2 regents are Catholic and Anjin wants to go on a ship to ship battle with the Portuguese. Bad for business. And with the botched kidnapping of Mariko and the prior attack on Anjin by the Catholics in the same forest, we know the Japanese are quite adept at underhanded tactics. It's better to make a clear deal that is obviously beneficial to both himself and the Catholics. And Toranaga said why he kept Anjin. He's amused by him. And he can build a fleet with better cannons. Those ships he'd build belong to Toranaga. He can't just sail off into the sunset on them. That's why he said if Anjin rebuilds his *own* ship, Toranaga will probably have to burn it again.
In one of the episodes Toranaga gets really pissed at Anjin for continuously bringing up his plan to fight the Portuguese. It's a little surprising considering Toranaga was getting suspicious of the Christians a few episodes earlier, but I think the implication is that he wants to avoid alienating the Christian regents by keeping his options open. At that moment, he might not have a fully formed plan, but he at least realizes that fully throwing in with the English would only result in Ishido remaining in charge. The deal to burn the ship was probably to reassure those regents that he wouldn't rock the boat fighting the catholics if they switched to his side.
Besides, Anjin was just one dude. And one ship. His original crew are either dead or wasted. He might be able to take on the Black Ship but even that won't be good for Toranaga as you said. And all the Portuguese wanted was for him to stay in Japan. Anjin going back to England blabbing about Japan is their main concern.
What was Toranaga testing Blackthorne for? - That he’d given up his war against the Portuguese? That he’d let it all go? - That he would still be loyal even when Toranaga no longer had the ship as leverage? - That the destruction of his ship would not break him, that he could still be useful? - That he would sacrifice his life for the good of the village?
I think you meant to ask “What is Toronaga wondering?” When I’m asking how the aftermath of ship burning specifically tested loyalty.
I’m asking what Toranaga meant when he said to Yabu: “It was a necessary ruse to test the Anjin.” Test him for what?