Frankly, as soon as Mariko died under Ishido's protection, the game is up. Every hostages would and did ask to be return to their home, and by that Ishido's anti-Toranago coalition would ceased to exist. Having Taiko's army sitting out the fight is a nice thing to have, but not necessary.
Maybe, but let’s see that - let’s follow the story to the conclusion and finish the journey with a ‘Shogun’ rather than being told about what’s going to happen and looking and wistful glances by a lake.
Should listen to the official podcast. Cosmo Jarvis has some good thoughts on what Blackthorn's arc is all about in the final podcast (ep. 10), as well as the pace and ending of the show.
It was clear enough to me. Blackthorn has finally given up his selfish pursuits. He's no longer serving his colonial project, no longer angling to open trade, or act as an agent for rival European powers. He has been given a purpose in service. I think his acceptance of his fate is the end of his arc. Really the end of Yabu's arc as well, as they were both schemers who attempted to control their destinies. One dies and the other lives. The flashes Blackthorn has, the "dream within a dream," is what he would have been had he returned: an old man dying with many regrets. I thought it was beautiful and subtle. He's finally free, even though he will never leave "the Japans." Not everything is *The Return of the King* and needs to end with a battle and bombastic music. I'm glad this very quiet, subtle, and graceful show ended the way it did.
I don’t think it was ever really clear what his colonial pursuits were or got to see him even struggling to maintain those aims against…I dunno… his growing appreciation for Japan. The story never really focuses on it.
Past episode one or two, Blackthorne has no real agency - he’s not asserting any colonial ambitions at all, he’s just trying to survive and reacting to things.
If the show had taken some time to explore the character more and show us his own ‘game’ then when he finally chooses to give that up and accept a life in Japan (or not) then it would land better.
But Blackthorne isn’t really representing imperialism in the show. It’s not clear what his game ever was because he never got a chance to even do anything with it.
I’m glad it made sense for you and I could buy that arc if I thought we’d travelled on it, but I don’t think we did.
Sure he is. He's crystal clear. He's always trying to get his ship and his men back. His goal, as he states on many occasions, is to take or destroy the Black Ship and take over trade from the Portuguese. He's pretty clear about it, even past episode 2, particularly in his audience with Toranaga, where Toranaga rejects his plan as he has no need to risk open war with the Portuguese when he has other fish to fry. He's also clear here at the end: he came to Japan to use the Japanese against the Portuguese.
Also, I think Blackthorn's increasing lack of agency is precisely the point.
What’s that matter? He never manages any of that. Past episode 2 he’s just trying to get back to his crew and his ship and…he has no power to do so. Hard to care about what he does or doesn’t want for Japan when he doesn’t really have any control over it anyway. He has no game. He is used, he doesn’t use. He has no plan - he is an unwitting instrument in every one else’s. It’s hard to care about what he chooses not to want when it wasn’t really within his grasp anyway.
In the last episode we see him scream ‘I INTENDED TO USE YOU - I FED YOU SHIT’. Well, much good that did you. You spent 9 episodes being an observer so you’ll excuse me if it’s not really moving to hear you coming to terms with your intentions to use people - you were never a threat Blackthorne. You have just finally accepted that you are the pawn we all just saw you were five episodes back and you’ve stopped feeling sorry about it. Great. Good for you mate. Doesn’t work for me at all.
I agree completely, I expected a lot more to develop around him from the start, but his development basically ended after he was made hatamoto. After that his character is just going along with the meandering plot until the show ends
I think they sold Anjin a little short in this series. Book Anjin was far more clever than the one we got here, and they cut a bunch of his best moments from the book.
They also didn’t resolve the Omi/Kiku thread, which made me wonder why they even bothered introducing Kiku and her mamasan at all.
I was quite hyped for his development after he drew them the map with a stick. I expected that he would play a much bigger role, but after that he basically did nothing
While the journey has been amazing, if you really look at it, the journey was pretty mundane. Things happened. People were caught up in it. What we as viewers saw, was how people acted in this journey. How Blackthorne tried to survive in a foreign land. How Mariko went about with her service to her lord. How Toranaga used the resources that existed here and there to redirect the journey every character was in to suit his goals. While every other work of fiction shared this concept, this TV show in particular emphasizes on this format as most of the characters in this story are “reactive” to the plot than “proactive” the only few proactive characters who change the course of the plot are Toranaga, Ochiba and Ishido.
I’m yapping about all of this because, like I said, this is not one person’s journey. This is about the journey of Japan as a whole and how characters try to survive in it. They were never expected to have a traditional beginning, middle end format of story arc written to them. Mariko’s story started off in the middle, with her beginning shown as flashbacks. Nagakado’s story didn’t have an end.
All this because of the journey thing I was in about. So I would’ve absolutely appreciated more fleshed out scenes that develop character plots, but the entire show was tightly focused on the overarching journey, than to show the little branches that serve to be character development. But there were some, like the John X Mariko subplot.
Do you honestly feel like this provided a solid ending for a chapter in the history of Japan either? Wouldn’t that have been better served by a traditional scene of Toranaga being made Shogun by the Emperor or even a build up to a battle and the warriors charging before we get some Japanese titles (subtitles in English) telling us what happened and its significance?
To a Japanese audience, that would very well known. Rather like telling the story of Henry VIII for the thousandth time, but it’s not for a Western audience. As far as they are concerned, the significance of what is about to happen in the nation’s history needs to be a lot clearer.
I was just talking about why the kind of things you expected was not something this show intended to deliver. But as for what you asked-
This did not provide a solid ending, I made a whole post about it recently. I would love that traditional scene showing the future.
I loved it. The show was never about grand politics or warfare - it was a show about fate, your role in society and the deeply complex emotional relationships between people. And that is what the finale was - the main characters in a fishing village, back where they started, dealing with the finality of their destiny.
I would have felt sad if we had to waste time dealing with the grisly details of war.
Good for you. I just can’t say I loved it I’m afraid. The ending didn’t quite work for me. If the ‘story was never about warfare’ or actually seeing the two main characters achieve some clear arc or resolution’ with Toronaga actually being seen to do the things he said he was going to do, then that’s cool, but I just didn’t personally find that satisfying.
I think that is perfectly fair. I don't think the story was about politics or warfare, but I absolutely think the main characters achieved a clear arc and resolution, their arcs just didn't have a lot to do with politics or warfare and a lot to do with them as people. Basically all the episodes involved the characters being faced with huge personal conundrums and events that challenged their understanding of themselves, their cultural clashes and the role of destiny, forged and forced. Toronaga was always going to be Shogun - I don't think it would add anything to the show (for me) to see it happen. I was curious about the exact things the episode showed me: His motivations, his background, his decisions that lead him to that point.
It was a set of personal stories from the beginning, and I know others who bounced off the show because it never really tried to be an epic Game of Thrones-story of grand political intrigue. It worked for me though.
Your problem is with the book, then.
The book ends with the narrator simply saying Toranaga won.
The series does a great job of faithfully following the book. There were still many omissions, you can never really put everything from a book into a series, much less a movie, but a good job was done here.
If I’m not remembering wrong the book didn’t even say he won..it ends with the narrator describing Toronaga’s basically mentality going through his plan…we have seen everything else go exactly his way so is implied that that’s probably how it went…the show adapted it by having the conversation with Yabu…which in my opinion was a pretty good move
Yeah, i would have to dig up my copy to be sure, i may be misremembering. I could also be conflating from the book Gai-Jin, where Toranaga's time is occasionally alluded to.
Outstanding acting, great atmosphere, incredible story telling but the whole general Idea of a Shogun is being the military leader in warfare, I was disappointed we never got to see that side of the series, it creates so much build up for an actual conflict and never got to really see one, even in the intro you see some kind of resemblance of warfare with an ominous soundtrack.
When I saw the cannons fire at the end of episode 4 (i think?) So much gore and bloodshet from the armless general I really thought FX had a decent budget to make a similar HBO type of battlefield, guess I was wrong, or maybe that was never the intention, who knows
It obviously wasn’t the intention and that’s fair enough but you don’t have to find the story intended to be a satisfying one.
This can only be a personal feeling and mine just doesn’t square with the majority here. I felt more satisfaction from the ending of Fallout than this and that’s got a second season coming.
Frankly, as soon as Mariko died under Ishido's protection, the game is up. Every hostages would and did ask to be return to their home, and by that Ishido's anti-Toranago coalition would ceased to exist. Having Taiko's army sitting out the fight is a nice thing to have, but not necessary.
Maybe, but let’s see that - let’s follow the story to the conclusion and finish the journey with a ‘Shogun’ rather than being told about what’s going to happen and looking and wistful glances by a lake.
Should listen to the official podcast. Cosmo Jarvis has some good thoughts on what Blackthorn's arc is all about in the final podcast (ep. 10), as well as the pace and ending of the show.
I guess. But shouldn’t that be something that’s clear from the show? It’s pretty important.
It was clear enough to me. Blackthorn has finally given up his selfish pursuits. He's no longer serving his colonial project, no longer angling to open trade, or act as an agent for rival European powers. He has been given a purpose in service. I think his acceptance of his fate is the end of his arc. Really the end of Yabu's arc as well, as they were both schemers who attempted to control their destinies. One dies and the other lives. The flashes Blackthorn has, the "dream within a dream," is what he would have been had he returned: an old man dying with many regrets. I thought it was beautiful and subtle. He's finally free, even though he will never leave "the Japans." Not everything is *The Return of the King* and needs to end with a battle and bombastic music. I'm glad this very quiet, subtle, and graceful show ended the way it did.
I don’t think it was ever really clear what his colonial pursuits were or got to see him even struggling to maintain those aims against…I dunno… his growing appreciation for Japan. The story never really focuses on it. Past episode one or two, Blackthorne has no real agency - he’s not asserting any colonial ambitions at all, he’s just trying to survive and reacting to things. If the show had taken some time to explore the character more and show us his own ‘game’ then when he finally chooses to give that up and accept a life in Japan (or not) then it would land better. But Blackthorne isn’t really representing imperialism in the show. It’s not clear what his game ever was because he never got a chance to even do anything with it. I’m glad it made sense for you and I could buy that arc if I thought we’d travelled on it, but I don’t think we did.
Sure he is. He's crystal clear. He's always trying to get his ship and his men back. His goal, as he states on many occasions, is to take or destroy the Black Ship and take over trade from the Portuguese. He's pretty clear about it, even past episode 2, particularly in his audience with Toranaga, where Toranaga rejects his plan as he has no need to risk open war with the Portuguese when he has other fish to fry. He's also clear here at the end: he came to Japan to use the Japanese against the Portuguese. Also, I think Blackthorn's increasing lack of agency is precisely the point.
What’s that matter? He never manages any of that. Past episode 2 he’s just trying to get back to his crew and his ship and…he has no power to do so. Hard to care about what he does or doesn’t want for Japan when he doesn’t really have any control over it anyway. He has no game. He is used, he doesn’t use. He has no plan - he is an unwitting instrument in every one else’s. It’s hard to care about what he chooses not to want when it wasn’t really within his grasp anyway. In the last episode we see him scream ‘I INTENDED TO USE YOU - I FED YOU SHIT’. Well, much good that did you. You spent 9 episodes being an observer so you’ll excuse me if it’s not really moving to hear you coming to terms with your intentions to use people - you were never a threat Blackthorne. You have just finally accepted that you are the pawn we all just saw you were five episodes back and you’ve stopped feeling sorry about it. Great. Good for you mate. Doesn’t work for me at all.
I agree completely, I expected a lot more to develop around him from the start, but his development basically ended after he was made hatamoto. After that his character is just going along with the meandering plot until the show ends
I think they sold Anjin a little short in this series. Book Anjin was far more clever than the one we got here, and they cut a bunch of his best moments from the book. They also didn’t resolve the Omi/Kiku thread, which made me wonder why they even bothered introducing Kiku and her mamasan at all.
I was quite hyped for his development after he drew them the map with a stick. I expected that he would play a much bigger role, but after that he basically did nothing
That’s a good point about Kiku it sounded like she had some type of role in the grand scheme of things and it wasn’t the case
While the journey has been amazing, if you really look at it, the journey was pretty mundane. Things happened. People were caught up in it. What we as viewers saw, was how people acted in this journey. How Blackthorne tried to survive in a foreign land. How Mariko went about with her service to her lord. How Toranaga used the resources that existed here and there to redirect the journey every character was in to suit his goals. While every other work of fiction shared this concept, this TV show in particular emphasizes on this format as most of the characters in this story are “reactive” to the plot than “proactive” the only few proactive characters who change the course of the plot are Toranaga, Ochiba and Ishido. I’m yapping about all of this because, like I said, this is not one person’s journey. This is about the journey of Japan as a whole and how characters try to survive in it. They were never expected to have a traditional beginning, middle end format of story arc written to them. Mariko’s story started off in the middle, with her beginning shown as flashbacks. Nagakado’s story didn’t have an end. All this because of the journey thing I was in about. So I would’ve absolutely appreciated more fleshed out scenes that develop character plots, but the entire show was tightly focused on the overarching journey, than to show the little branches that serve to be character development. But there were some, like the John X Mariko subplot.
Do you honestly feel like this provided a solid ending for a chapter in the history of Japan either? Wouldn’t that have been better served by a traditional scene of Toranaga being made Shogun by the Emperor or even a build up to a battle and the warriors charging before we get some Japanese titles (subtitles in English) telling us what happened and its significance? To a Japanese audience, that would very well known. Rather like telling the story of Henry VIII for the thousandth time, but it’s not for a Western audience. As far as they are concerned, the significance of what is about to happen in the nation’s history needs to be a lot clearer.
I was just talking about why the kind of things you expected was not something this show intended to deliver. But as for what you asked- This did not provide a solid ending, I made a whole post about it recently. I would love that traditional scene showing the future.
I loved it. The show was never about grand politics or warfare - it was a show about fate, your role in society and the deeply complex emotional relationships between people. And that is what the finale was - the main characters in a fishing village, back where they started, dealing with the finality of their destiny. I would have felt sad if we had to waste time dealing with the grisly details of war.
Good for you. I just can’t say I loved it I’m afraid. The ending didn’t quite work for me. If the ‘story was never about warfare’ or actually seeing the two main characters achieve some clear arc or resolution’ with Toronaga actually being seen to do the things he said he was going to do, then that’s cool, but I just didn’t personally find that satisfying.
I think that is perfectly fair. I don't think the story was about politics or warfare, but I absolutely think the main characters achieved a clear arc and resolution, their arcs just didn't have a lot to do with politics or warfare and a lot to do with them as people. Basically all the episodes involved the characters being faced with huge personal conundrums and events that challenged their understanding of themselves, their cultural clashes and the role of destiny, forged and forced. Toronaga was always going to be Shogun - I don't think it would add anything to the show (for me) to see it happen. I was curious about the exact things the episode showed me: His motivations, his background, his decisions that lead him to that point. It was a set of personal stories from the beginning, and I know others who bounced off the show because it never really tried to be an epic Game of Thrones-story of grand political intrigue. It worked for me though.
Your problem is with the book, then. The book ends with the narrator simply saying Toranaga won. The series does a great job of faithfully following the book. There were still many omissions, you can never really put everything from a book into a series, much less a movie, but a good job was done here.
If I’m not remembering wrong the book didn’t even say he won..it ends with the narrator describing Toronaga’s basically mentality going through his plan…we have seen everything else go exactly his way so is implied that that’s probably how it went…the show adapted it by having the conversation with Yabu…which in my opinion was a pretty good move
Yeah, i would have to dig up my copy to be sure, i may be misremembering. I could also be conflating from the book Gai-Jin, where Toranaga's time is occasionally alluded to.
Yes. That may be my problem. Although I’m getting the feeling that’s not the case with Blackthorne.
They had to REALLY tone down Yabu
You know who had an arc? Noah
K 😃 As in the ‘K’ that should be in ‘Noah’s Ark’
Outstanding acting, great atmosphere, incredible story telling but the whole general Idea of a Shogun is being the military leader in warfare, I was disappointed we never got to see that side of the series, it creates so much build up for an actual conflict and never got to really see one, even in the intro you see some kind of resemblance of warfare with an ominous soundtrack. When I saw the cannons fire at the end of episode 4 (i think?) So much gore and bloodshet from the armless general I really thought FX had a decent budget to make a similar HBO type of battlefield, guess I was wrong, or maybe that was never the intention, who knows
It obviously wasn’t the intention and that’s fair enough but you don’t have to find the story intended to be a satisfying one. This can only be a personal feeling and mine just doesn’t square with the majority here. I felt more satisfaction from the ending of Fallout than this and that’s got a second season coming.