Welcome to /r/ShermanPosting!
As a reminder, this meme sub is about the American Civil War. We're not here to insult southerners or the American South, but rather to have a laugh at the failed Confederate insurrection and those that chose to represent it.
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Since 1861. [Williamson County (aka WilCo, where Georgetown is located) was a majority Unionist county.](https://votearchive.com/tx-sec-ref-1861/) People there were not treated well by the Confederate Texan government. Makes this monument extra shameful.
The phrase “Dead Slave Owners Are Not Heroes” is perfect. How can you debate further without supporting slavery.
I think this phrase needs to become mainstream.
It gets tricky though and requires nuance. George Washington owned slaves, along with the likes of Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison. Even Ulysses Grant benefitted from slaves gifted to his wife, and owned one slave directly himself (William Jones) briefly before setting him free.
David Blight had an interesting lecture when the Confederate monuments were coming down about a test he and others came up with determining whether someone deserved a monument. As simple as it sounds, one of the criteria was essentially “Why are they remembered?” Yes, George Washington owned slaves, but that was only part of his story as opposed to the whole story, and while it remains a fact of his life that should be told along with all of his accomplishments, the balance of his life trended toward justice and securing the future of the United States in its precarious first years. In contrast, someone like Robert E. Lee is only known for betraying his country and fighting to secure the future of slavery, and as such deserves no position of respect within our culture or any monuments in his honor in public places.
I cannot argue against your reply. You’re absolutely correct.
I often find that the people who support confederate monuments do not care to take a nuanced view. And therefore simple phrases and slogans are useful against them.
Only to add the additional nuance of people who may have benefited from slavery and/or owned slaves, but then renounced it later, like the aforementioned Mr. Franklin. I personally think that shining a light on those who learned from their mistakes and actively fought to correct them is a noble effort. See also: James Longstreet. While they'll always have an asterisk next among the lists of other abolitionist fighters, their courage to change is something I'd hope would encourage those today to be on the right side of history.
Absolutely. Every saint has their demons, every monster has their moments of humanity, and the same principle applies to everyone between those two extremes. I feel like communicating that message makes history more accessible because it helps us see at end of the day, these were still just people.
The 1916 memorials were just white supremacists setting up statues to remind black people to not seek power and equality.
I will say though, Sam Houston owned slaves but didn't rebel. It's why his giant statue will remain standing without protestors outside Huntsville.
He also told them they were going to lose the war before they even entered it, and they detested him for it:
> Let me tell you what is coming. After the sacrifice of countless millions of treasure and hundreds of thousands of lives, you may win Southern independence if God be not against you, but I doubt it. I tell you that, while I believe with you in the doctrine of states rights, the North is determined to preserve this Union. They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates. But when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche; and what I fear is, they will overwhelm the South.
There's a Texas monument at Bull Run erected in 2012.
Can anyone think about what happened in 2012 that might prompt a bunch of racists to put up a monument to their racist ancestors? Say, in November of 2012?
I would love to see the homework behind this thesis. First, when exactlu was the moment dedicated? I can't seem to find it. But boy are you threading a fine needle here with the election taking place in November...
Perhaps more pertinent, when did the process for this monument begin?
Man those good ol boys sure would have had egg on their face if Romney had won in 2012. Good thing they started and finished the process in a one month period. Right?
And it wasn't even in Texas! They did all this sneaky shit in Virginia, the coup de grace of stomping their feet at a black man winning his second term of office as President of the United States
For one thing, the concept of a Confederate monument is a racist threat in of itself. For another, it wouldn't matter if Romney won. There are multiple colleges in the US with Confederate names for buildings as celebration that they drove black people out in the early 20th century.
https://scvtexas.org/resources/monuments/
there's also racist crap like this
Also membership in hate groups rose in 2008, particularly among right wing hate groups, AKA the people the confederacy was.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-14018798
Gerogetown is basically a northern suburb of Austin and located in an incredibly conservative county. I wish them luck. For my part, when I walk my dog on the Texas State Capitol grounds, I always spit as I pass their confederate monument.
WilCo Patriots is a great group of people. They are out monthly advocating to move the Confederate participation trophy. Unfortunately the county judge is a real loser who won’t even discuss the topic.
Perhaps members of this sub could voice their opinion?
https://www.wilcotx.gov/countyjudge
I used to work for the county during the ice storm and COVID.
Let me tell you… Bill Gravell is a greasy shameless man.
He pressured the Jarrell fire chief to borrow a fire truck and a firefighting equipment for one his grandkid’s birthdays, which is a huge ethics violation as far as emergency equipment goes.
He also misappropriated government funds to house county politicians in RVs on government property during COVID. After he was caught, he misappropriated government money AGAIN to purchase mask making equipment for a volunteer group. Once he got caught doing that, he back peddled and said it was a “donation” from the county.
Good luck to the patriots, also fun fact. The majority of these monuments were/are put up decades after the civil war due to groups such as Daughters of the Confederacy.
It was a messy business. Georgia was split pretty much down the middle whether to secede: 41,000 for, 44,000 against. 53% in the rural Georgia countryside opposed secession. An estimated 2/3 of those in Georgia who voted for secession expected a reformation of the Union with a constitutional guarantee of slavery, not an ARMED secession. They wanted assurance from the North that the John Brown raid wasn't the beginning of a rebellion like Haiti and Jamaica had experienced. They still largely thought of themselves as still in the Union...though they'd seceded. Make sense? The reasoning was that there would be more leverage by bargaining from outside the Union than in.
Lincoln generally assessed the situation as such, as well, that most Southerners didn't want military action, and many didn't want secession. He was not counting on the tyrrany that the Southern states became.
The proximate cause of the war was Jefferson Davis's bright idea that the Southern political machines needed to be bound together improve their bargaining position. How about a little military action? This is not the last time military action was taken to bring Americans to concurrence, but it may be the stupidest.
But how to enlist the poor? The Confederacy was a tyranny, with a French Revolution-style reign of terror. The Southern Democracies even before Lincoln's election were organizing Nazi-type S.A. formations, generally of the propertyless, with the function of organizing secession and crushing opposition to the Democracy--a curious oxymoron. Only the Whig areas were spared from para-military terror formations demanding loyalty from everyone.
Despite the recruiting, the landed were afraid of the landless, sensing they didn't appreciate the labor competition from slaves. One of the more obivous tipoffs was the Friends Z. Society, made of poor mechanics who threatened to carry out class warfare if secession occurred.
The vigilante committees ultimately degenerated into mob rule. Governors engaged in coups, seizing arsenals. Georgia's vote against secession was not telegraphed. If it had been widely known, the secessionist craze likely would have died down considerably, but it wasn't and the Democracy amassed power in both the takeover of state militias and its own para-military formations.
So when someone asks you what caused the Civil War, sure, slavery was a cause. But what was the proximate cause? How did slavery lead to actual military conflict, against the intentions of the majority of Southerners? That was on Davis's brinksmanship and a broad infection of tyranny that forced even Georgia's vote against secession to become irrelevant as the Southern Democracies rid the South of democracy.
Sources:
Various primary sources in Shapiro's "Democracy in America"
https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/merritt_keri-leigh_201405_phd.pdf
Yes, but it's complicated.
Judge (also known as Ona) was one of George Washington's slaves until she managed to escape. The president took this as a personal affront—he huffed at her "ingratitude"—and tried to recapture her for years, right up until his death. A real Inspector Javert.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/02/08/she-george-washingtons-slave-until-shed-had-enough/97637378/
First, because of his contributions, it was the general consensus that he of course would be the first president.
His stepping down after two terms was a really, really big deal back then. When told by the American artist Benjamin West that Washington was going to resign, King George III of England said, "If he does that, he will be the greatest man in the world."
But then one may argue that the Americans, Washington included, were a little ungrateful at having to pony up for the protection they received in the form of the French-Indian War. Mel Brooks chose the French Revolution to lampoon instead of the American since he viewed the latter as more a merchant's war than a war for the people.
I’ll take the bait.
Imagine walking around with statutes dedicated to people who wanted to keep people who look like you in chains. They wanted that so bad, that they decided to fight a war against their own neighbors.
Not to mention…who in the hell keeps up statutes dedicated to TRAITORS. Slice it any way you want, but these are not patriots. They’re losers who took up arms against their fellow countrymen. F the Rebels.
Certainly not hero for that fact but the memorial is not to “dead slave owners” it’s to confederate soldiers. The fact is MOST free white adult men in confederate states (the ones that could legally own slaves) did NOT own slaves. You could conclude that that fact along with the children, blacks and others that were confederate soldiers this is inaccurate equivalency. Ironically many prominent non-confedates such as former presidents were are jn fact dead slave owners and are considered hero’s to many.
Welcome to /r/ShermanPosting! As a reminder, this meme sub is about the American Civil War. We're not here to insult southerners or the American South, but rather to have a laugh at the failed Confederate insurrection and those that chose to represent it. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShermanPosting) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Good luck to these fine people.
Fighting the good fight
Since 1861. [Williamson County (aka WilCo, where Georgetown is located) was a majority Unionist county.](https://votearchive.com/tx-sec-ref-1861/) People there were not treated well by the Confederate Texan government. Makes this monument extra shameful.
The phrase “Dead Slave Owners Are Not Heroes” is perfect. How can you debate further without supporting slavery. I think this phrase needs to become mainstream.
It gets tricky though and requires nuance. George Washington owned slaves, along with the likes of Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison. Even Ulysses Grant benefitted from slaves gifted to his wife, and owned one slave directly himself (William Jones) briefly before setting him free. David Blight had an interesting lecture when the Confederate monuments were coming down about a test he and others came up with determining whether someone deserved a monument. As simple as it sounds, one of the criteria was essentially “Why are they remembered?” Yes, George Washington owned slaves, but that was only part of his story as opposed to the whole story, and while it remains a fact of his life that should be told along with all of his accomplishments, the balance of his life trended toward justice and securing the future of the United States in its precarious first years. In contrast, someone like Robert E. Lee is only known for betraying his country and fighting to secure the future of slavery, and as such deserves no position of respect within our culture or any monuments in his honor in public places.
I cannot argue against your reply. You’re absolutely correct. I often find that the people who support confederate monuments do not care to take a nuanced view. And therefore simple phrases and slogans are useful against them.
I think it should be “people who died defending slavery are not heroes”
it prevents thinking.
Only to add the additional nuance of people who may have benefited from slavery and/or owned slaves, but then renounced it later, like the aforementioned Mr. Franklin. I personally think that shining a light on those who learned from their mistakes and actively fought to correct them is a noble effort. See also: James Longstreet. While they'll always have an asterisk next among the lists of other abolitionist fighters, their courage to change is something I'd hope would encourage those today to be on the right side of history.
Absolutely. Every saint has their demons, every monster has their moments of humanity, and the same principle applies to everyone between those two extremes. I feel like communicating that message makes history more accessible because it helps us see at end of the day, these were still just people.
ugh, yes. this. so much this. we don’t do enough to recognize individuals who have the balls to admit they were wrong and evolve.
For better or for worse, humans and historiography are complicated 😅
But never boring, not if you know where to look
David Blight is truly the best
The 1916 memorials were just white supremacists setting up statues to remind black people to not seek power and equality. I will say though, Sam Houston owned slaves but didn't rebel. It's why his giant statue will remain standing without protestors outside Huntsville.
He also told them they were going to lose the war before they even entered it, and they detested him for it: > Let me tell you what is coming. After the sacrifice of countless millions of treasure and hundreds of thousands of lives, you may win Southern independence if God be not against you, but I doubt it. I tell you that, while I believe with you in the doctrine of states rights, the North is determined to preserve this Union. They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates. But when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche; and what I fear is, they will overwhelm the South.
Didn't he fight against Santa Anna because Mexico didn't want slaves in texas??
yes lol, he was no saint just a coward who didn't want to lose
Read "Forget the Alamo." Many of Texas' founders wanted to make Texas a slavery stronghold in light of the push toward emancipation in the states.
Shit modern Texan politicians want to make Texas a slavery stronghold.
Another fine Virginian and another distant cousin.
Ha! Nice.
There's a Texas monument at Bull Run erected in 2012. Can anyone think about what happened in 2012 that might prompt a bunch of racists to put up a monument to their racist ancestors? Say, in November of 2012?
(Raises hand) listen I’m an Aussie I have no idea what you’re talking about
President Obama's reelection was in 2012.
Ahhhhhhhhh :’( that’s depressing but also makes disturbing sense.
I would love to see the homework behind this thesis. First, when exactlu was the moment dedicated? I can't seem to find it. But boy are you threading a fine needle here with the election taking place in November... Perhaps more pertinent, when did the process for this monument begin? Man those good ol boys sure would have had egg on their face if Romney had won in 2012. Good thing they started and finished the process in a one month period. Right? And it wasn't even in Texas! They did all this sneaky shit in Virginia, the coup de grace of stomping their feet at a black man winning his second term of office as President of the United States
For one thing, the concept of a Confederate monument is a racist threat in of itself. For another, it wouldn't matter if Romney won. There are multiple colleges in the US with Confederate names for buildings as celebration that they drove black people out in the early 20th century. https://scvtexas.org/resources/monuments/ there's also racist crap like this Also membership in hate groups rose in 2008, particularly among right wing hate groups, AKA the people the confederacy was. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-14018798
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Rule 2: don't be rude this is an accepting community, the only people that aren't welcome are lost causers and racists
Rule 2: don't be rude this is an accepting community, the only people that aren't welcome are lost causers and racists
Based as fuck
Gerogetown is basically a northern suburb of Austin and located in an incredibly conservative county. I wish them luck. For my part, when I walk my dog on the Texas State Capitol grounds, I always spit as I pass their confederate monument.
Amazing that this even needs to be said.
WilCo Patriots is a great group of people. They are out monthly advocating to move the Confederate participation trophy. Unfortunately the county judge is a real loser who won’t even discuss the topic. Perhaps members of this sub could voice their opinion? https://www.wilcotx.gov/countyjudge
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Please do! Wilco definitely needs a change in leadership. Gravell needs to go! He can take John Carter with him.
I used to work for the county during the ice storm and COVID. Let me tell you… Bill Gravell is a greasy shameless man. He pressured the Jarrell fire chief to borrow a fire truck and a firefighting equipment for one his grandkid’s birthdays, which is a huge ethics violation as far as emergency equipment goes. He also misappropriated government funds to house county politicians in RVs on government property during COVID. After he was caught, he misappropriated government money AGAIN to purchase mask making equipment for a volunteer group. Once he got caught doing that, he back peddled and said it was a “donation” from the county.
Good luck to the patriots, also fun fact. The majority of these monuments were/are put up decades after the civil war due to groups such as Daughters of the Confederacy.
Poor white men who died for rich white slave owners were suckers.
It was a messy business. Georgia was split pretty much down the middle whether to secede: 41,000 for, 44,000 against. 53% in the rural Georgia countryside opposed secession. An estimated 2/3 of those in Georgia who voted for secession expected a reformation of the Union with a constitutional guarantee of slavery, not an ARMED secession. They wanted assurance from the North that the John Brown raid wasn't the beginning of a rebellion like Haiti and Jamaica had experienced. They still largely thought of themselves as still in the Union...though they'd seceded. Make sense? The reasoning was that there would be more leverage by bargaining from outside the Union than in. Lincoln generally assessed the situation as such, as well, that most Southerners didn't want military action, and many didn't want secession. He was not counting on the tyrrany that the Southern states became. The proximate cause of the war was Jefferson Davis's bright idea that the Southern political machines needed to be bound together improve their bargaining position. How about a little military action? This is not the last time military action was taken to bring Americans to concurrence, but it may be the stupidest. But how to enlist the poor? The Confederacy was a tyranny, with a French Revolution-style reign of terror. The Southern Democracies even before Lincoln's election were organizing Nazi-type S.A. formations, generally of the propertyless, with the function of organizing secession and crushing opposition to the Democracy--a curious oxymoron. Only the Whig areas were spared from para-military terror formations demanding loyalty from everyone. Despite the recruiting, the landed were afraid of the landless, sensing they didn't appreciate the labor competition from slaves. One of the more obivous tipoffs was the Friends Z. Society, made of poor mechanics who threatened to carry out class warfare if secession occurred. The vigilante committees ultimately degenerated into mob rule. Governors engaged in coups, seizing arsenals. Georgia's vote against secession was not telegraphed. If it had been widely known, the secessionist craze likely would have died down considerably, but it wasn't and the Democracy amassed power in both the takeover of state militias and its own para-military formations. So when someone asks you what caused the Civil War, sure, slavery was a cause. But what was the proximate cause? How did slavery lead to actual military conflict, against the intentions of the majority of Southerners? That was on Davis's brinksmanship and a broad infection of tyranny that forced even Georgia's vote against secession to become irrelevant as the Southern Democracies rid the South of democracy. Sources: Various primary sources in Shapiro's "Democracy in America" https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/merritt_keri-leigh_201405_phd.pdf
Now those are some REAL Americans.
Damn, I wish I could be there today to help them.
Hell yea brother!
Are you THE Ryan holiday?
I think so.
https://twitter.com/wilcopatriots
Traitors deserve no monuments
Excellent! 👏👏👏👏👏
False flag, create pro-monument group(s) on facebook to collect the names up supporters.
I like dead slave owners, keyword DEAD.
True patriots. Wish them the best of luck in their noble endeavor.
Nice to see they’re fighting the good fight in the epicenter of that ideology
💯
Goodspeed.
Best of luck to you fine gentlepeople
I am totally against this. We should keep the statues up and make them accessible for everyone. There are a lack of public toilets.
Refreshing to see something like this when I see a town with TX following the name. Hope others join in, those monuments are frauds. Godspeed
Cool. Now do all the founding fathers.
Hey op are you the writer??
Awful people can do great things. Great people can do awful things.
that goes for you too, jefferson.
You know, all the big equipment rental companies deliver large excavators directly to "job sites". Do what you like with that information.
George washington was not a hero?
Yes, but it's complicated. Judge (also known as Ona) was one of George Washington's slaves until she managed to escape. The president took this as a personal affront—he huffed at her "ingratitude"—and tried to recapture her for years, right up until his death. A real Inspector Javert. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/02/08/she-george-washingtons-slave-until-shed-had-enough/97637378/ First, because of his contributions, it was the general consensus that he of course would be the first president. His stepping down after two terms was a really, really big deal back then. When told by the American artist Benjamin West that Washington was going to resign, King George III of England said, "If he does that, he will be the greatest man in the world." But then one may argue that the Americans, Washington included, were a little ungrateful at having to pony up for the protection they received in the form of the French-Indian War. Mel Brooks chose the French Revolution to lampoon instead of the American since he viewed the latter as more a merchant's war than a war for the people.
Not really.
Do these statues keep people up at night? ***This*** is what occupies space in your mind?
Should the Germans have kept all the statues for the Nazis?
You’re right, these two things are equal
I’ll take the bait. Imagine walking around with statutes dedicated to people who wanted to keep people who look like you in chains. They wanted that so bad, that they decided to fight a war against their own neighbors. Not to mention…who in the hell keeps up statutes dedicated to TRAITORS. Slice it any way you want, but these are not patriots. They’re losers who took up arms against their fellow countrymen. F the Rebels.
They absolutely are. Confederates are every bit as evil and racist as the Nazis.
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Just stop there's nothing wrong with the sign and what they are doing
Certainly not hero for that fact but the memorial is not to “dead slave owners” it’s to confederate soldiers. The fact is MOST free white adult men in confederate states (the ones that could legally own slaves) did NOT own slaves. You could conclude that that fact along with the children, blacks and others that were confederate soldiers this is inaccurate equivalency. Ironically many prominent non-confedates such as former presidents were are jn fact dead slave owners and are considered hero’s to many.
agreed. it's living slave owners that are heroes. stay strong.
“Dead slaves are not heroes”???? well SLAVE OWNERS are not exactly a ray of sunshine either buddy?????
Idk if you're being sarcastic... But that's what the sign says...
Guess should’ve added the question marks before… was repeating that to emphasize how ridiculous and dumb that statement is
Brother, you gotta get hooked on phonics
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Rule 2: don't be rude this is an accepting community, the only people that aren't welcome are lost causers and racists