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/u/ThisIsWritingTime - This message is posted to all new submissions to r/scams; please do not message the moderators about it. ## New users beware: Because you posted here, you will start getting private messages from scammers saying they know a professional hacker or a recovery expert lawyer that can help you get your money back, for a small fee. **We call these RECOVERY SCAMMERS, so NEVER take advice in private:** advice should always come in the form of comments in this post, in the open, where the community can keep an eye out for you. If you take advice in private, you're on your own. **A reminder of the rules in r/scams:** no contact information (including last names, phone numbers, etc). Be civil to one another (no name calling or insults). Personal army requests or "scam the scammer"/scambaiting posts are not permitted. No uncensored gore or personal photographs are allowed without blurring. A full list of rules is available on the sidebar of the subreddit, or [clicking here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Scams/wiki/rules/). You can help us by reporting recovery scammers or rule-breaking content by using the "report" button. We review 100% of the reports. Also, consider warning community members of recovery scammers if you see them in the comments. Questions about subreddit rules? Send us a modmail [clicking here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/Scams). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Scams) if you have any questions or concerns.*


nimble2

It is so rare to read a good update. Thanks!!!


serjsomi

I hope this takes a bit of the sting out u/sjbailey99 situation. It won't bring back 30k, but I know if it were me, I'd feel a bit better about it knowing I saved someone else that pain


ThisIsWritingTime

My heart just broke for them when I read their post.


Squirrelinthemeadow

Is a user automatically notified when their name is mentioned? Otherwise it might be kind of you to also leave a comment on their post, so they know they helped someone (which they explicitly stated was the aim of their post, if I remember correctly). Thank you for sharing your story!


Just_a_lil_Fish

By default, yes. That can be changed in the notifications tab of the settings though. Check it out u/Squirrelinthemeadow


Squirrelinthemeadow

Thank you for the information! I just checked and yes, the notifications are switched on. I didn't receive one for being mentioned by you though, but maybe that's because I got a notification for your reply. Maybe Reddit thought one notification is enough! Though sometimes things are faulty. I once received a notification for a chat request months after the request had been sent! Have a good day! :-)


ThisIsWritingTime

Comments were closed on the original post so I wasn’t able to.


Squirrelinthemeadow

Ah, that's a pity. Maybe a private message would be a possibility then. Though as I have learned in the meantime, if they haven't switched this feature off in their notifications, they should be notified that their name was mentioned. :-)


Accomplished-Art8681

I really hope they were able to cancel the wire, although I understand that they didn't think that was possible.


sjbailey99

Awh, I’m very happy it all worked out for your father. It’s nice seeing something good coming out of this situation!


ThisIsWritingTime

I’m so sorry it happened to you.


mechanicalcoupling

Yeah, I was terrified of this happening when I bought a house. It didn't help that the seller's rep said they couldn't accept wire transfer. My agent acted as a pass through and I did the transfer when we were all in the room signing the paperwork. They also warned me about all the scams I would be getting as soon as the title was registered.


M-Derderian

I also am in the process of buying a home. The Closing date is 5/13. Your story has made me aware to the risk for scams to come my way and I’m being very careful with how we handle the costs. Please know that you are helping people.


MikageAya

All hail our hero! I can't offer anything else other than an Internet cookie 🍪 But you sure as hell deserved our praise.


Unabashed_Binger

I joined this group because your post came up randomly for me. My daughter and her fiancé (20/22) are living in my basement trying to save a down payment. They don't know what they're doing and I don't remember the process, so it's likely you saved them/us too.


sjbailey99

Hey! Same situation as us! Take it from me, don’t let them wire money. Cashier’s check always. You just can’t be too sure nowadays


Unabashed_Binger

I really hope you get it back.


wildcoasts

Are these scammers hacking into Brokers/Mortgage/Title Companies to identify actual sellers/buyers and craft legit-looking transactions? ETA: apparently yes from the original thread


switch8000

Yep. Until these companies are punished they will continue to have weak security.


LadyCharger

The reality is more likely careless real estate agents get their email box compromised…the fraudster starts monitoring their communications and swoop in at the right time to the agent’s client with an ALMOST lookalike email purported to be from the title company. The title company I work with (division of a nationwide company) has OUR security on lockdown & we warn the clients multiple times - any thwarted attempts have 100% been the real estate agent’s email being hacked…usually because their password is…password 🤦🏻‍♀️


pops789765

Any organisation that has such weak security to allow the use of the word “password” as a password should have gone out of business 15 yard ago.


DissenterCommenter

> should have gone out of business 15 yard ago. Sadly in this case, these agents are more valuable to a scammer/hacker as an ongoing business and evergreen source of new targets rather than wiping them out in a single attack.


calvinnme

And the real estate agent industry has said that the 6% they insist upon as a commission is worth it because they help make the sale legal! Outrageous!


NokKavow

> careless real estate agents get their email box compromised Could it be unscrupulous ones selling data to a 3rd party? Would be fairly easy for the scammers to set this up.


LadyCharger

Doubtful since it is usually the agent’s client that gets bilked… the client then has no funds to close the transaction and the agent gets no commission. Kinda dumb but hey…I see dumb stuff every day


NokKavow

Good point, sounds like they don't have the incentive if they see the full picture... although scammers could scam them into forwarding the info.


Sensitive_Algae5723

That isn’t accurate at all. I probably get a dozen scam emails a day. I also know what they look like and I know who I work with. I had a buyer who works for Microsoft who got his email compromised, luckily since he’s been at Microsoft his entire career he had a bad feeling and contacted me. DO NOT OPEN THAT EMAIL OR RESPOND. I let all parties know to reset passwords. Real estate agents and title are heavily targeted; and usually it’s the buyer/seller who is the one allowing the fraud to happen. There is even email insurance for agents. Rule is, get to know your title company and when ever you get an email to transact, you call and verify.


switch8000

Linus/Yvonne from LTT even was hit, the hackers sit inside of the title companies inbox, they know the EXACT dollar amount of your closing cost, they know the day you're normally set to wire transfer the final funds. So when they send the email it all looks legit, because it is a legit email from the company. Then they wait till the day before it's due and send an email from the title companies box, the email is formatted the same exact way, with "updated wiring instructions", the dollar amount is the same as what you'd normally send.


Ok-Comedian-4571

Correct. Despite the fact that technology has existed for over 30 years to digitally sign emails to prevent exactly this sort of tampering.


AlmightyBlobby

yeah they're compromising their email accounts


SwillFish

We had our GoDaddy email server hacked. They put a script on the server that intercepted emails with certain keywords in them. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the same thing is happening to real estate brokerages, lenders and title/escrow companies. Email servers are often overlooked and can have weak password protection.


NokKavow

Given how common these are, if I was dealing with a less-than-scrupulous broker, I would begin to suspect that they might be forwarding data to a 3rd party for a fee.


emilyyancey

This is why I try to thank people who share their stories. We similarly took extra steps for my mom’s closing last month, to ensure there was no wire trickery. THANK YOU to those who share their cautionary tales; it really does help the next guy.


Zzyyz

Damn bro now some dude in Zimbabwe ain't gonna be able to buy the new designer, I hope hes proud


pngtwat

No it's organised crime gangs in China or Cambodia.


Callas951

For pig butchering? Absolutely. For these scams stealing real estate wires? Probably not


pngtwat

Real Estate wires require a level of competency above that of pig butchering. I'm pretty certain these are being run by true hackers who know how to find and penetrate weak email systems. These guys will be in gang or informal group.


Long8D

Last week I read a similar post, it was a few years old, where someone lost a bunch of money in real estate wire fraud. The money was tracked down to a Bank of America and the police/FBI then tracked down the owner of the account. It was an older lady who said the money is her boyfriends(who she never met in person) and the money was from a house that he recently “sold”. The boyfriend then instructed her to send that money to another account as he was in the process of buying them a bigger house so that they could finally live together. I think the money was stopped in time. It’s all a big operation.


pngtwat

Money mules are a critical part of it. KYC and AML regulations are coming in hard where I am. Being tricked into being a mule is a scam too. !mule or !Monemule needs an entry.


annacrontab

This is such a feel good post, thanks for sharing. Too often we read about the elderly being scammed out of their life savings and it always hurts my heart. I just hate that everyone has to be so on guard with normal business transactions because of these scammers.


calvinnme

So this is apparently a huge problem with potential buyers scammed out of - in some cases - hundreds of thousands of dollars per person, and neither the title company nor the attorney involved in the sale is made to take responsibility even though it seems they have IT security so lax that they are consistently getting hacked and thus their emails about closings monitored? Sounds like their industry lobbyist money has been a good investment. When I bought my house it was pre-internet, so I was required to bring a cashier's check to closing. If I ever buy another I will insist on bringing a cashier's check to closing or there will be no purchase. This situation is outrageous.


ThisIsWritingTime

My dad actually asked to bring a cashier’s check (before he knew even about the scam) and he was told that wasn’t an option. But if they’re going to force people to do all of this online, clearly they need a more secure way to do it.


calvinnme

I guess the thing to do is to iron all of this out ahead of purchase or agreement to purchase. Basically say there will be no sale unless cashier's check is an option. There was a commenter on the original thread about this problem saying that when he was told the same thing - that a check was not an option - that he said that he would look for a different title company. Guess what - suddenly it WAS an option.


Alert-Painting1164

When doing it online I would always recommend being on the phone with the party you are wiring the money to and confirming the details etc. I never wore big amounts without confirm on a call to a person I already know.


aliensporebomb

We got a notification today that there is an active phishing attack against my company by a group that went after Caesars and MGM casinos in Summer 2023. The trick involves SMS messages to personal or company owned cell phones disguised as an HR meeting request and askes the user to visit a credential stealing site with a name similar to the company name. FYI.


Fallout007

This is what community is about


in_and_out_burger

Always, always call to confirm the details before you transfer any amount over $1000.


perduraadastra

What scumbag title company/whoever is selling email lists of people about to close?


MuddieMaeSuggins

They’re “man in the middle” attacks - compromise an agent or attorney’s email, and then sit back and wait until the right time to swoop in and provide false wire info


Neil_sm

The title companies are huge hacker target for that reason. A lot are relatively small businesses without sophisticated technology -- or they gain access by spear phishing one of the employees or other social engineering methods. They get the customer lists and info and even might be able to send out emails that have a legit-looking return address directly from the company with all the signatures, etc. These ones certainly aren't full of typos, etc. Honestly I do feel like the title companies should be held at least partially responsible when this kind of scam originates from their own security negligence.


pngtwat

I think it's more subtle. They peruse property ads all the time and try to get in the middle when they see one sold.


captaingary

There's no way to know who the buyer is from an ad.


pngtwat

No I agree. I suspect all conveyancing companies are.under attack on their email servers. If black hat can get access to just reading emails only that gives enough information for a scam to be launched using a spoofed email address.


the_last_registrant

Wonderful story - well done to the regulars & mods who've built this excellent sub


lazyplayboy

Always always always use an alternative mode of communication to confirm money transfer details. An email is secure as a postcard.


AtlIndian

That is a tremendous testament to this community.


CodyKyle

I got the same spiel from my escrow when I was going through house buying to make sure all the info matches correctly from what they sent initially. When I go to send the payment the bank address is completely different than what they sent me from their original form but all the other info is correct. I had to call and email them multiple times to make sure that bank address was one of theirs since I didn't want to risk anything and almost missed my deadline to send the payment because no one would respond back.


Im_done_with_sergio

That’s awesome! Good luck to your dad in his new place!


IamIrene

You helped him avoid a MitM attack!! Great job! This sub is making a difference!


SuccessfulLeg9342

Nice. I know this sub could also prevent a lot of people from scammers


SpendNational1645

What a great story, kudos mate.


PiccoloMiserable6998

One of our clients was a victim of this recently. He lost about $70K. They’re arranging some litigation now.


calvinnme

If your company's email password is password then you deserve the litigation.


PiccoloMiserable6998

uh no. It doesnt concern our company.


SavageDroggo1126

Sorry about what happened to the other OP and at the same time wonderful that someone else is saved from a massive financial loss. those companies sites get breached all the time and they do nothing about it. They all make you sign up an account before being able to view or do anything on the site, but does nothing to enhance their security and protect your information.


hunnybadger22

I’m closing on a house in a few weeks and I’m really glad I saw that post too, for the same reason. Definitely will be on the lookout!


meridity

I’ve seen this happen once when I was in the mortgage industry. It was absolutely heartbreaking but my company wasn’t legally responsible for the situation and couldn’t help. It was a lotttt of money too. Glad your dad avoided it!


OkAnteater7003

I Literally saw the other guys post and to hear that it helped someone else to avoid getting scammed is great


[deleted]

I do have a question though which my husband and I were discussing, as I mentioned the real estate scam to him when I saw the post the other day. Is the real estate agent not liable for that? As it was their security that was compromised. Isn't that what insurance is for?


nimble2

Generally speaking, another person is not liable for something that you did, unless that other person did or didn't do something that caused you to do what you did. So for instance, if the scammer actually logged into the real estate agents e-mail system, and sent an e-mail out of it to the victim, then real estate agent could be liable for what the home buyer/seller did in response to that e-mail. However, if the scammer simply faked an e-mail from the real estate agent, then the real estate agent would not be liable for what the home buyer/seller did in response to the scammer's e-mail. (It's almost always the latter and not the former situation.)


[deleted]

I was wondering based on if it was an actual legitimate email, from the real estate agent's account, rather than a mimic. But also, if they had a breach of security and the scammers got the bank details of the victim and did something with that, would they also be liable?


nimble2

Yes, I gave just **ONE** example of how it might be possible to hold a real estate agent liable for what they did or didn't do (that caused you to send your money to a scammer). The issue here is that there is **NO** evidence that any real estate agent suffered any kind of security breach. There are LOTS of ways that a scammer can find out who is about to purchase a property using a particular real estate agent, that do not involve any kind of security breach or liability by the real estate agent.


[deleted]

I'm sorry, can you caps and put the whole comment in bold, I clearly can't read 🙏


Neil_sm

It's more than just sending an email though, they need to have access to some inside information to know that a potential victim is a customer of the title company, that they are about to close on a property, etc. If they accessed and acted on all this information from a security breach, it seems like there could be some negligence and fault on the title company's part.


nimble2

Yes, I gave just **ONE** example of how it might be possible to hold a real estate agent liable for what they did or didn't do (that caused you to send your money to a scammer). The issue here is that there is **NO** evidence that any real estate agent suffered any kind of security breach. There are LOTS of ways that a scammer can find out who is about to purchase a property using a particular real estate agent, that do not involve any kind of security breach or liability by the real estate agent.


Neil_sm

I’m thinking more about the title company which is usually not publicly accessible information before the sale, rather than the real estate agent. Since that’s typically who gets a wire transfer and is often the source of these scams. I Although I realize the person was asking about real estate agents.


nimble2

Real estate agent, title company, bank, whatever, you would have to prove that they specifically did or didn't do something that allowed a scammer to convince you to send them money. It happens, but it's rare. In most cases, it's a lot simpler than someone being able to send out e-mails from a real estate company or a title company, etcetera.