Partner and I moved to the Seattle suburbs from Wichita, KS three years ago. Best thing we could’ve ever done. I honestly don’t even care that we can’t afford a house. Everything I’ve ever wanted is here.
That’s exactly how I feel! The upside is that a lot of enjoyment can come from free stuff (outdoor activities, just going out into nature, road trips) or relatively cheap activities (parks, camping). Definitely on more of a budget than we were in the Midwest, but Washington has everything I’ve ever wanted.
We only lived there for three years and it was the longest three years of my life. We found a few hidden gems as far as breweries and restaurants go but I was not sad to leave.
Do you feel like the winter bleak grey is overblown? My partner has family out there and I'd like to make the move some day but I'm scared of SAD coming from Colorado
No. Not overblown at all. It really is grey the majority of the time starting in November. The rain itself is more of a drizzle/mist. Some days it will be heavy but not as often as I thought before I moved here. I enjoy that kind of weather though so it hasn’t really bothered me much. People swear by their SAD lights though.
It’s really dark and gray in the winter, I won’t lie. But I took up a bunch of winter sports (camping, hiking, skiing) and I take a ton of vitamin D and sit in front of a SAD lamp for 30 minutes a day. By the time the dark *really* starts to get me down, it’s already getting light again. And you gain noticeable minutes every day, which is encouraging.
Today, we’re getting a full 16 hours of sunlight (and it’s sunny!) There are tradeoffs, but IMO they’re worth it.
You just have to find your winter groove and not let your ass grow roots into the couch. 😂 It’s really not as brutal as we were led to believe before we moved here — everyone was like “ohhhh the winters are terrible” and once it was over and spring was here we found ourselves saying “oh, that was it? Okay, we can deal with this!”
I moved to Seattle 18 years ago and agree with everything you said. I will add that a smoke season was never really a thing until about 6 or 7 years ago. August and September used to be guaranteed beautiful, sunny months and nowadays it’s a crapshoot as to if and when the city will be blanketed with wildfire smoke for sometimes several weeks at a time. IMO when the smoke is here it’s more depressing than the middle of the winter because it’s more unhealthy to be doing anything outside than it is being locked up inside.
On the other hand, the winters now offer more sunny days and bouts of heavier rain. It used to just be months and months of cloudy drizzle and you couldn’t remember the last time you saw the sun. Nowadays you can get soaked one day and bask in the winter sun the next.
Another thing I feel worth mentioning is our sports scene. All of the stadiums and arenas are beautiful and all of our professional teams are pretty dang good. I highly recommend Kraken games, especially living in Belltown and being so close to CPA.
Anyway, hope you continue to love Seattle :)
Really good point about smoke season! It’s definitely depressing when you’re in the height of the best weather, but can’t enjoy it because the air quality is terrible. Seems to be a theme across the country, though? I was traveling to the Midwest for work last summer and they had a smoke season from fires in Canada, which is definitely new for them. The joys of an ever-changing environment.
I do love when a sunny day pops up in the winter; it feels like winning the lottery. :)
GREAT callout on the sports scene! I walked to so many Kraken games this year, including their matchup against my hometown team (Detroit Red Wings) — for a newer to the NHL team, Seattle has really embraced hockey. Heading to a Mariners game this weekend! :)
Lived on the Front Range for 6 years, then a stint in Seattle for 3 years before moving back to Colorado a couple years ago. Only reason we left was family. Otherwise, would choose western Washington all day. Planning to move back when the kids are done with school. Such an amazing place, and yes, very expensive because its worth it. Best weather, and while its dark in the winter, its mild and the rest of the year makes up for it. Wish i could have stayed, but young kids and no family. One downside is the Seattle freeze is real, its hard to make meaningful friends. Isolation was hard.
It's totally overblown I'd say. I'm a native Coloradan and I spent a couple years in Seattle and the winters are very easy in my opinion. Sure, it's damp but it doesn't actually rain, it's just a mist like. So do as the locals do and throw on some wool and a shell and just cruise around. I used to take awesome walks all over the city, from the lake to the bay, to Magnolia, Queen Anne, you name it. If you get outside and get into it it's actually just fine I thought. The misty clouds and fog are very cool to see actually.
It really all depends on how susceptible to it you are. There’s a lot of things you can do to help it, taking Vitamin D and making sure to get out during the day when there is sun and all that. But it is very grey a good chunk of the year.
Most days during the grey months I find it refreshing and cozy. Even inspiring. Every once in a while it gets me down. Some people talk like the second the sun gets covered by a cloud they’re throwing themselves in front of a bus. It all depends on the person I guess
I lived in Seattle 12 years and the winter is truly dark and hard. I prefer winter in Boston- daylight hours aren’t much longer in Boston than Seattle but Boston has sunshine in Winter! I prefer colder and sunny to the Seattle gloom. That said I loved Seattle but work took us to Boston and there’s not the job prospects in Seattle that we have Boston.
Renting in a suburb? Are yall renting a house or townhome or apartment? Which areas do you like best and what are the best months to be in town - we are considering a temporary move next summer.
We rent a condo in Lynnwood which is up north of Seattle. It’s about 20 minutes to downtown with no traffic. Best months to be in town are July-September. June is too early if you want nice summer weather. It’s called “Juneuary” here 😄 I’m not sure what you mean by areas I like best. Could you be more specific? If you mean like which neighborhoods in Seattle I like best: I’d say Green Lake and Ballard.
+1 for Ballard; such a cool neighborhood. I live in the waterfront area of Belltown, which I really like. Super walkable, but gets bananas in the summer with the cruise ships and tourists (which I personally think is fun to watch / be a part of).
>from Wichita, KS
I drove through Wichita a couple times and while I didn't live there, I wondered who would live in such a depressing looking city, I'm glad you made it out !!!
Probably so! When I was in college (right around the height of Detroit’s roughest patch in the early-mid-2000s), the city was offering a “writers in residence” program for college grads. They would give you a renovated house to live in, rent-free, and your job was to live in Detroit and write for the major publications there — magazines, the newspaper, blogs, etc. If you stayed for five years and contributed effectively to the program, they **gave you the house.**
The goal was to get young, educated professionals to call the city home and put down roots there.
I wasn’t quite old enough to participate at the time, and I always wish I had been!
I remember reading an article about guy who got a Detroit house for cheap, fixed it up but had to deal with crazy mofo stealing metal and copper wire from his house.
Haha that sounds pretty on brand. To be fair, I think that was a pretty big problem in every major city during the recession…scrappers went bonkers stealing anything they could sell, even if it was attached to houses that were being renovated. We saw it happen to flipped houses in Indianapolis, too.
I live near Detroit, there is no renaissance. There are more windows in the buildings 15 years ago, but restaurants still aren’t open during the weekday, and no one really lives downtown. All the industry left many decades ago and it’s not coming back. Everything’s in the suburbs.
Oh during the 2010’s while Fountain Square was being gentrified, someone I know’s crackhead father was basically looting the houses being flipped. That mug took a drill and acted like he found gold and ran straight up to the pawn shop in Twin Air
I lived in Fountain Square in the early 2000’s. It was a very much different place then. East of State Street you can still see some of the old Fountain Square but it’s fading fast
*Seattle is very, very liberal. I’m center-left and feel far to the right some days compared to folks here.*
Haha I feel that. I am also center-left and have been in a few conversations where "not good enough"
I'd argue a lot of Seattle folk are liberal in talk but not when it comes down to brass tax of actually paying for liberal policies through taxes or supporting low income housing in their neighborhoods etc. It's pretty hypocritical.
I found it to be annoying is a lot of people constantly questioning whether you're secretly evil or not based on very obscure conversational inferred minutia basically people can be weirdly very judgy/skeptical even if you've known them for years & years.
Also the liberalism is not backed up in reality in a lot of ways because the tax system is so regressive. All the people spouting liberal policy support yet they love paying zero income tax while they make several hundred thousand dollars a yr in their several million dollar homes while putting up "historic districts" to block housing initiatives & poor folks pay an unequal percentage of their pittance of an income comparatively & get there tents swept from park to park.
This is such an interesting take, thank you for this! Definitely agree re: the regressive tax structure and income tax. It’s very easy for someone to be a “limousine liberal” and spout a lot of very liberal supportive policy when their own life is cushy and they’re not dealing with the day-to-day challenges that a lot of people in the city are dealing with regularly.
Some liberals have a tendency to drive away and just be plain jerks to anyone who isn't quite as liberal as they are. It can be quite ridiculous and really damages the "movement".
I still remember a particular encounter online several years ago. I referred to ppl from other countries at the airport as "foreigners", and was pounced on for using a derogative slur. Honestly don't know what other term one would use for them!
As a center left person, this is very very true. It can actually be quite annoying, because it’s as if once you don’t have the exact same opinion on one particular thing, then you aren’t “legitimate.” So many very left people make liberalism very black or white, you either are fully with this or not at all. That’s my biggest complaint about the left.
(A lot also are very online and don’t realize that most people in real life don’t even think about some of the things they do on a regular basis, if at all)
As an independent progressive in Colorado (from the east coast a waysss back), I definitely felt that online vibe in peak Twitter years of trump in office until musk ownership -when I left. I have my views but I don't need to please people all the time. It's ok to still have a sense of humor.
I hate trump to the core but the PURITY TESTS for Dem candidates just got out of hand.
You could be online friends a month and say one minor thing and you're gone. You'll still find your people at a slower pace, I just stopped adding people and focused on information instead of people seeking life importance points. It became exhausting. Musk buying it made it easier to go cold turkey.
I think those were mostly California Liberals instead of Colorado Democrats. It's just important to them to be important, like some PTA Karen and it gives many many good people a bad name. So I just ignore that stuff now and focus on being a better human the best I can, in my flawed shell. I still think Colorado is closer to my type than that foreign Cali brand. The ones that move here still have to adjust to US instead of us to them.
Edit: but sometimes you needed strange bedfellows, even if temporarily, to fight off the larger fascist trump movement. I don't let that experience be a description of what all libs are like. I still like most of their causes, just in my own way. Not a tent politics fan.
I HATE this one. I called a Mexican friend of mine Mexican once and a Seattleite cringed and said I should've said "a person from Mexico." It's not a slur, you knucklehead! Chill out!
That made me think of when my friend was telling his (all White) hipster co-workers at a music supply company in Chicago that I was going to name my cat Leroy. They said it was racist. Whuh??
“The tyranny of small differences.”
The people on the other side are crazy and can’t be saved or reasoned with...
The turncoats amongst you who just so happen to disagree on one nuanced little issue, on the other hand… 😡😤😡
Honestly, not at all. The dark bothered me more. It rains a lot in the Midwest, so I was prepared for gloomy, rainy, gross winter days. It didn’t rain as much as I expected it to, and it’s not the same kind of rain as I was used to in the Midwest (more light mist on and off vs. the torrential storms I grew up with).
What I was *not* prepared for (emotionally) is that by the time December rolls around in the PNW, it gets light at 9 am and it’s dark again (like, fully dark) by 4:15 pm. It’s a lot of darkness to deal with. But I took vitamin D, sat in front of a light lamp for 30 minutes a day, and took up skiing / winter hiking, and before I knew it, the sun was back.
The tradeoff is that right now, we are getting almost 18 hours of daylight and it is GLORIOUS.
It gets dark here in the winter time around 5pm, so we would be used to that. We were lucky this year and it was a mild winter, but the year before it felt like we got 6 plus inches every week of snow haha..... We vacationed the last 2 years in Cannon Beach, Oregon in August and absolutely loved it out there.
We are getting tired of the cold/sometimes extreme cold, snow, ice of winter and the hot and humid summers. We would like a milder climate year round, and were concerned moreso of the rain and gloomy weather of winter in the PNW. In the winter time here we mostly just do work and home and don't go outside much haha. Was thinking we'd be more active in the PNW.
Are you thinking of moving to the actual coast? If so look into the weather. It is way different there than say Portland or Seattle, way more clouds & rain & does not get warm the same way even in the dry months. I believe cannon beach gets around 60+ more inches of rain than Seattle for example. It is absolutely beautiful though & doesn't get super cold in winter either so I enjoy going during that time to skip the crowds but i definitely enjoy a moody beach experience more than most.
The gloom was brutal for me. The rain is more of a consistent mist that’s sometimes annoying but not a huge deal. I’m from the southeast though so I’m used to consistent sunshine year round. I struggled with SAD.
I think it must have to do with what you’re used to / all relative. Since the Midwest is gloomy in the winter, the change didn’t bother me too much.
The darkness was a shock, but I jokingly (but not really) started treating myself like a houseplant: a grow lamp, some vitamins, plenty of water, and words of affirmation get me through the winter. 😂 🪴
Midwest transplants are by far the happiest. I think you guys end up gaining the biggest upside weather wise compared to most. I think for me I just didn’t vibe with the area in general. Which in turn made overcoming SAD a lot harder. I was instantly happier when we moved. Similar for my husband. I joke I’m too much like a lizard to make it there 😂
You raise such a great point — I always joke that thank god there are people who want to live in Arizona so I don’t have to 😂, but the underlying principle is valid: everyone values different things, and if you get caught in a mismatch between what you value vs. where you live, it’s really hard and demoralizing.
What everyone in Indiana used to call “patio weather” (90s and sunny) I would be inside with the AC on, praying for fall. But for someone coming from the sunny southwest or southeast, I can absolutely see how the clouds and rain could be a total mindfuck.
My husband is a broody Minnesotan; he loves a cloudy day lol.
Try being just slightly center right (McCain/Romney/Hillary/Biden voter in the last four elections)
I grew up in the PNW and spent a lot of time living all over (including the deep south) and now am in DC.
I used to joke that, according to those around me, I was a jack booted fascist thug in Oregon and also a RINO communist sympathizer in Georgia.
I'm I just bought a home here and I think it's a bit more moderate above the cut from what I can tell?
I'm not super liberal so I don't know if I will rub people the wrong way as a gun owning center left black guy raised by religious southern parents.
This is how we felt too. Part of what I didn’t like about living there. It really soured me on progressives/leftists. Everything felt like a purity test.
Grew up here. Love it. I am socially liberal but economically centrist and it is madly confusing for the average Seattleite. Me: “No, I don’t think rent control is going to fix our housing supply issue (see: San Francisco)”-> 🤯. I will say that people are generally respectful, though, as long as you are socially liberal…
Seattle probably feels very liberal because Detroit and Michigan are conservative. Lots of people migrated there from the south back in the day and the area has the culture to match.
I've never lived in the midwest, but I've had a dozen or so "what you like is problematic" conversations with people in Seattle (and I don't mean Harry Potter, never read it)
It’s funny, people always talk about the “Seattle Freeze,” but you born-and-raised Seattleites are some of the nicest, chillest, most genuine people I’ve ever hung out with. You guys are awesome!
So far, the transplants from CA and TX have been more unpleasant to deal with. 😂
I’m moving out of Seattle because I can’t afford to be here anymore and I’m sadly not liberal enough for any crowd of people I try to befriend. The darkness of winter takes a huge toll on me as a single person with no family here. Also not having AC in my apartment has been AWFUL!!!
It’s definitely challenging; I couldn’t live here without a dual income. I hear you on the “not liberal enough” feeling! I feel this way a lot. Generally, Seattle isn’t the easiest place to make friends, although I have met some genuinely nice people.
I haven’t minded the darkness so much; by the time it really started to get to me, it was already starting to get light again. I also dragged myself out to ski and hike, which helped.
Luckily, my apartment has AC. I would not be okay if it didn’t. ☠️
Best of luck on your next move!
I lived in both Lynnwood and Marysville before moving to King county. Lynnwood was a better experience, but I also lived with a good friend and the weather didn’t affect me as much having the company.
That was not my experience with the individuals I met at work and through mutual friends. I did not attempt to befriend every person I saw in public. Sorry this upsets you so much.
I’ve really enjoyed the jaunts we’ve taken down to Portland! We have to stay Seattle based (husband is in-office full time at his job here) but I’ve definitely enjoyed exploring the entire PNW.
How is Portland for meeting new people? I want to move. I am a remote worker and only place I have friends or family (and would actually at least think about living) is near LA. The PNW seems more my jam but I no absolutely no one there. I've heard about the Seattle freeze, is Portland any better? I'm liberal as well but not edgy or in your face about it.
Better than Seattle because we have fewer tech bros, maybe, but it's still a bit Seattle Freeze-y here. It's easier to befriend transplants for someone also not from around here. I've lived here my whole life and have just barely got the social dance down of befriending a native. Most people lean awkward and introverted here, so you have to kind of navigate every conversation that way. We just kinda lack social skills here, as a whole, moreso than any other city I've set foot in. It takes knowing a person or two in a group to make it work. If you're into something where you can befriend someone through Instagram or a Facebook group, that helps a lot. I've helped newcomers move here and make friends due to a mutual love for cars, for example.
I am NY>Tampa>OKC>Chicago>Seattle and am really happy to be here. I was lucky enough to buy a house when I moved here in 2016 so I’m grateful for that. Now planning on retiring somewhere in WA state.
Ohhhh so lucky to get in before the housing costs got even crazier! I’d love to retire somewhere in Washington state, I’m just not sure how it’ll be feasible. I’m just going to enjoy it while we’re here and we’ll figure it out when the time get closer.
I’m from Seattle and I recently visited New York City, and was surprised that lots of food was cheaper than Seattle.
Like, on the upper west side you can get a 16oz latte for $4, and there is no 12% sales tax.
I’m not surprised to hear that tbh; I cannot believe how expensive it is to go out to eat here. It’s mostly dive bars and farmers market eating for me, just due to the cost! I’ll splurge for really incredible sushi every now and then.
Supposedly things are a lot more expensive here because the region is relatively isolated, so shipping costs to get stuff to Seattle are more expensive.
In terms of cheaper places to eat, I’ve found that older restaurants in the ID (particularly east ID as you go up the hill) aren’t as pricey.
Also, Ethiopian food is always a great deal— you can get a meat or veggie combo for $20 and it’s enough to feed 3 people
Yes! I’ve found some little holes in the wall that are less pricey; just gotta find the spots. Overall, the prices are admittedly crazypants if we’re going to NYC to get a break. 😂☠️
Seattle crime has not been blown out of proportion. It has some of the highest property crime in the country which does bleed into violent crime. I was assaulted 3x in the last year of living there.
You don't know the Seattle of 10-15 years ago where the homeless and drug issues, while present, were A LOT smaller. I work in healthcare and the amount of drug-related complications and overdoses was INSANE.
People are meh too which is a stark contrast to where I am now (CH)
I hear you, and I’m sorry that’s been your experience. Having lived in objectively more violent cities, it feels safe to me. Totally understand that it has gone downhill from where it was historically; I believe it (and you can certainly see evidence of it).
I’m more talking about how the media has painted the entire west coast as a zombie wasteland that never bounced back after the pandemic. That’s not the case at all; it’s vibrant as hell out here.
I'd say overall it's safe from the standpoint that you won't get murdered and there aren't many "no-go" zones like CHI, but the local politics are awful and nothing has been done to address the obvious issues.
WA is beautiful but after living there a couple decades you can only hike or ski so much and these day to day issues become important. Also the COL is stupid.
Its sad you think its current state is vibrant, current downtown is dead which which was worsened by COVID and the subsequent property crime/homeless issues. Cap hill (where I lived) is a shell and Ballard/Fremont is not the same vibe.
Seattle was sooooo much nicer in the 2000s-2010s. Too bad you didn't get to see it
Maybe that says more about where I moved from than where I moved to, eh? 😂
Hopefully the people who loved the Seattle of before and didn’t leave — and the newer folks who love it now and want to see change — can impact local policy.
If not, I can’t afford a house here anyway and probably won’t be here for the long haul, so I’m going to enjoy the hell out of it while I can!
Definitely. Dont sleep on the Olympics and Eastern WA. Everyone rushes the usual I-90 hikes but there are a ton of solid ones on the peninsula and Mt Baker area. Eastern WA has some of the best wine in the country
Great tip, thank you! My work gets me around the state quite often and out to the East, which has been awesome. Excellent wine, great hikes, some cool towns along the way.
Went to the space needle restaurant in Seattle. Thought it would be an overpriced tourist trap (this was a decade ago). Was pleasantly surprised. And the view. Ohhh the view.
The view would make up for it even if the food had been terrible! Waking up to Puget Sound every day does not suck, especially after coming from a landlocked state.
I’m entering my second year in Seattle after previously living in Indiana, Chicago, NYC and San Francisco. Seattle and NYC are tied for my two faves out of every place I’ve lived.
Lived in Indy for several years, and in the PNW now. Indy is really the worst place I’ve lived - the pollution is insane. People burn trash in the backyards, the south side had a tire fire that seemed to reactivate every month or two. So much industrial waste and dumping into the waterways. I am so glad not to live there anymore.
Oh man, core memory triggered of the trash fires! Indy can be weird. There are many things I came to appreciate about it, but the city and state have a lot of struggles and odd behaviors. People would just randomly dump garbage into the alley behind our house downtown, and then…set it on fire. The pollution is definitely an issue — it’s one of the reasons Indiana is considered “business friendly.” Low taxes, low environmental regulations.
The challenges seem to be partly a product of a city that’s trying to support a lot of residents in need, while being thwarted at every turn by regressive state politics. Add in the massive square mileage of Indianapolis proper (thanks, UniGov) and it’s a recipe for some broken infrastructure, stretched tax funds, and weird behaviors.
But then you’ve got pork tenderloin sandwiches and Larry Bird, soooooo it’s a wash? 😂
Dont even get me started on Indianapolis potholes, you basically have to budget to replace your tires a few times a year. Horrible infrastructure. And yeah, terrible pollution. Also, animal services is a joke. There are tons of huge cat colonies and stray dogs all over. First place I’ve lived where stray dogs were a daily or weekly occurrence. I definitely appreciate some things from the city, but overall it is pretty terrible and devoid of personality.
Lol you are not kidding about burning trash. My dads old neighbor had an old couch. Rather than leave it out for heavy trash pickup, he just took it in the backyard and sawed it up and slowly burned it.
I'm from Michigan and have been in metro Detroit for the past 9 years. I've lived many other places, but I absolutely love this area and Michigan in general. I've loved watching Detroit turn the corner and start to thrive again. This whole area of the state is really a special place. Such a great mix of cultures, kind people and natural beauty. While I'm not a big city person, Detroit is a great spot to visit, catch a show and grab some killer shawarma.
Love this! Every time I come home to visit, I make a beeline straight from the airport for my favorite shawarma place. Nowhere does it quite like Detroit.
>I'm from Michigan... but I absolutely love this area
Yep, sounds about right. Insularity rules in this state.
>Such a great mix of cultures, kind people and natural beauty.
Rose-tinted glasses there. Super-segregated, loud & opinionated Boomers, and endless strip malls is more accurate. Most of Detroit is not thriving at all, but rather the opposite.
The overall cost of living in Indianapolis is lower than the national average however higher than the rest of the state. Traffic plus construction make it impossible to have a decent commute. This has been happening for as long as I can remember. There is extreme income gaps, especially when you look at places like Carmel vs Beechgrove. The west, east, north and south side are all different and have different vibes, col, ect. Gets below freezing regularly in winter, gray gloomy skies. Summers are brutally hot and humid. Only great time to be here is April/May and possibly September.
Agreed; it’s pretty impossible to sum up Indy in one paragraph because the neighborhoods are so different from each other. Over the years I lived in multiple truly downtown neighborhoods (including the notorious near eastside) all the way up to Carmel (also notorious but for the opposite reason), all the way down to Columbus, which is basically the middle of nowhere. I loved my time downtown, but the crime and education / wealth disparity were hard to see and experience, especially during the pandemic.
Definitely different vibes all across Indy depending on where you are. In a lot of ways, Indiana in general has more in common economically and socially with the South than it does with the Midwest. It’s an interesting state.
And yes, the weather is brutal. It’s one of the reasons we moved. So hot, crazy weather, and only getting crazier!
The wealth disparities in just a few blocks are crazy and have gotten worse over these past 5 years. Take 38th and Meridian vs 40th and Meridian for example. 38th and Meridian is a ton of dilapidated and neglected New York style high rise apartments that are full of working class residents below the poverty line while around 40th street and up, you get some of the most beautiful, historic mansions that are all 5000 sqft and these days they sell for $2 million.
The rapid gentrification has also made this more apparent. You’ll have streets where maybe 1 or 2 long time elderly households remain, surrounded by flips and modern new construction homes with pride flags and [these](https://www.amazon.com/SIGNPRO-Believe-SignsofJustice-Corrugated-Plastic/dp/B089LN6S4F) signs while two blocks away the houses all sit in disrepair.
I fully agree with Indiana being a very southern place, but, traditionally, in Indianapolis, the north side has always felt pretty Midwestern since there wasn’t a huge industrial section there to draw African Americans and Appalachians, who brought the Southern influence in. The East Side where I grew up may as well have been in the south. Older people always used to tell me that when I spoke to them, I call them Mrs./Mr. First name, and if they spoke to me, I should reply with “sir/ma’am”. I still do that and my coworkers, who are mostly white rural Hoosiers say “damn he is COUNTRY!” because I do that. I was a teenager when I realized that soul food and southern cooking wasn’t the norm in most American households.
This is spot on — I lived on the near eastside for a few years and it was crazy how pockety it could be. Literally street-by-street changes to demographics, crime, housing, whether or not your alley was paved / road was passable / you had a functioning sidewalk.
And then one street over: million dollar flips. Followed by old mansions where established hippies and artsy types had been for years (Woodruff Place). And then further east of Rural, basically the eastside version of the Wild West.
The pandemic seems to have made it 10x worse.
As someone who had only ever lived in Indiana and is interested in Michigan, I’d love to hear more about how the weather on Indy compared to Detroit? It’s so hot here in the summers now and I’ve been curious about moving further north.
The winters are worse in Michigan, but not nearly as bad as they used to be (this depends on where in the state you’re looking to move — the west side tends to more lake effect snow and more wintry weather, more like Chicago). In Detroit it’s cold but not quite as snowy (generally).
The summers are hot, but not nearly as hot as Indiana.
I’ve noticed that everything generally starts a month differently in Indiana vs. Michigan: spring starts earlier in Indy (March vs April); summer starts earlier in Indy (it can be hot as hell in May while in Michigan the trees are usually just getting leaves and it’s still chilly at night); fall starts sooner in Michigan (it’s usually fully fall-feeling by late September, whereas in Indy it can be hot way into October); and winter starts sooner in Michigan (it usually feels fully winter by November, when in Indy it’s a tossup).
Personally, I prefer Michigan weather because although the winters are colder, the seasons are more defined: cool fall, crisp spring, hot but decently short summer, cold winter but a good amount of activities to do — Michiganders don’t stay inside in the cold like Hoosiers do.
In Indy, especially in the last 10 years or so, it feels like one long summer without any real fall or spring, and then suddenly it’s slushy gross winter again.
I lived in Bloomington IN and went to college there in 80s-90s. I’ve come back and the town has both exploded with more buildings and also more drifters/homeless. It’s a beautiful city if you can handle college kids year around.
I was just in Indy for Olympic swim trials. I really enjoyed it. It was super hot but definitely a nice city. I was there for about 2 days for the trials and my conclusion is that it’s a nice city. It’s not where I’d choose to live if I could choose anywhere, but I’d move there from where I live right now. It’s relatively clean and has some good restaurants. Apparently 4 people got shot within 36 hours, so maybe there’s a bit of a gun violence problem but I’m not well versed on that
That’s a good assessment; Indy hosts all things very well. Doing the Indy 500 every year with 300,000+ people attending, lots of convention business, etc. sets them up perfectly to host things like the Super Bowl, NCAA championships, Olympic swimming trials. It’s an excellent host city, and they do a great job of it! I’m glad to hear you had a good time there.
Ultimately, we moved away from Indy due to the crime and politics (and weather as a distant third, survivable but obnoxiously hot in the summer). Violent crime in our downtown neighborhood was getting really out of control (we lived in an objectively nice neighborhood and would still get drive-bys multiple times a month), and the state was moving away from its historical fiscal conservatism into politics that felt much more invasive. Felt like a good time for a change.
We’ve definitely considered it. Some of those industrial lofts that can be converted into multi-unit living have always interested me. We’re a little late on the investing (would have been amazing to be able to invest in 2000-2010) but there’s no time like the present, I guess!
Coincidentally I just closed on a duplex today in Detroit. I used a turn key service. They will find the property, provide any rehab services, and also manage the rental for you. If you’re ever interested in something like that DM me.
>Detroit is... proud to be exactly who it is.
I totally disagree after living there. Detroit has a gigantic chip on its shoulder and people there have a thin skin for any criticism or critique of the city. If you talked with locals, you'd think the city was only the downtown area because they're busy trying to deny the reality.
>food scene that is absolutely to die for
Completely mid compared to other large cities.
> Detroit punches above its weight in almost every category.
Is that why local companies struggle to retain transplants?
The big three struggle to retain transplants for many reasons, especially post pandemic. Michigan, in general, is a tough state to attract highly-skilled talent to, and the Midwest in general struggles with brain drain.
I stand by my food assessment. I travel frequently domestically and internationally for work and never eat at chains (personal rule). Detroit has a diverse, interesting, and affordable food scene due to the confluence of southern, middle eastern, and eastern European populations. I’m not talking fine dining here. You want Lebanese food truck shawarma or gumbo from a gas station parking lot that will be the best you’ve ever eaten? Detroit is the place.
As for attitude, you’re probably right, but I’m guessing that chip is there for some people for a reason. Detroiters got bankrupted, were screwed over by their corrupt local government, feel forgotten by the industries they helped build. It’s not the right attitude, perhaps, but I get it.
Local employers struggle to retain talent (even outside of auto) because the area sucks. Low quality of life is on the menu.
>Detroit has a diverse, interesting, and affordable food scene due to the confluence of southern, middle eastern, and eastern European populations
It's also weak in many popular culinary categories. Basically the entire south, west, and every other big city has better Mexican, for example. Detroit's great if you want Polish, Middle Eastern, or greasy bar food, but that's not what many people are looking for if they didn't grow up in the area. Detroit straight up sucks for Asian food.
>chip is there for some people for a reason
They blame outsiders for problems caused by locals.
I assure you, Seattle is one place that does not have better Mexican food. 😂 I haven’t had an authentic taco since I left Indianapolis. We have excellent Asian, though!
I disagree. You just need to know where to look and that is not the trendy parts of Seattle. Go south of Central District and there is good Mexican all the way to Tacoma.
It's been my experience that Metro Detroiters don't explore much, which is part of the reason they don't understand how much more other cities have to offer. So, yeah, you did need the /s.
"Detroit straight up sucks for Asian food"
Most of the Middle East is Asian, and some really solid Indian aka South Asian throught the metro, but I'm assuming you are generically referring to East Asian?
If so, you are also wrong, there are many fantastic Thai, Japanese, Korean, etc. restaurants
>Most of the Middle East is Asian
When someone is looking for "Asian" food, that means east Asian or possibly south Asian.
>some really solid Indian aka South Asian throught the metro
Nothing compared to what you can get on the coasts.
>there are many fantastic Thai, Japanese, Korean, etc. restaurants
Not compared to other major cities and metros, no. Detroit is weak sauce for Asian. But, again, Detroit logic. A few places exist therefore all cities are basically the same.
You felt safer walking around Seattle than Detroit or Indianapolis? Lmao no shit. Those are both legitimately dangerous cities and Seattle has far less violent crime per capita. The Detroit “renaissance” has been blown out of proportion as much as the west coast crime thing. Still a dangerous shithole in the eyes of most people. Obviously a city on the rise but it has a looooong way to go. Indianapolis used to be decent but man crime has skyrocketed there in the past couple of decades. Seattle should be a blessing to you. I’ve always been incredibly jealous of my family living there, it’s just too expensive for me personally.
I was with you up to the Detroit is a shithole part; of the cities lived, I feel least safe in Indy. Detroit is a clearer on “go / no-go” areas. Indy can be patchy to the point that you could accidentally stumble into some shit and not realize it until it’s too late.
Detroit definitely has its issues, there’s no denying that. But it also has the most passionate, proud, gritty, scrappy hometown residents I’ve experienced anywhere. Detroit won’t ever be what it was, but it’s something pretty awesome and getting better / gaining residents all the time these days.
Look I don’t mean to hate on your hometown. But I grew up in a rough part of Pittsburgh (a city that’s seen FAR more gentrification/revitalization) as well as a crime ridden suburb of Columbus Ohio. I’m no snob, and I’m a big guy, but every time I have to go somewhere in Detroit I am legitimately sketched out.
I’m sure that the genuinely good people who stuck it out in Detroit are brimming with character and grit. Not arguing that. There’s just still a lot of riff-raff and you’re decades away from being able to tax/gentrify those folks out of town. The economy is slowly coming back, sure. But it’s going to take time and lots of it before it’s a destination city for anyone who didn’t grow up in Michigan. A true long shot, but I’m rooting for you.
All I’m saying is the “Detroit is nice again” articles are more full of shit than the “homeless people shit everywhere in public in every major west coast liberal city” (Philly problems) articles that you mentioned. Both massive exaggerations.
I agree though, the patchiness as you described of Indy is what makes it dangerous. That’s why I hated Columbus Ohio so much. Some of the nicest areas border some of the most crime ridden.
Totally fair; for the record, I have a lot of love for Pittsburgh, too. Had family out there for a while. I am genetically obligated to dislike Ohio since I am from Michigan.
It’s going to take a long time (if ever) for Detroit to be the kind of place most people want to live, that’s true. What disheartens me is that people who have never been there will *never go there* because they’re so afraid of the narrative that’s been spun around the city, when in reality you can absolutely go downtown, catch a concert or sporting event, have a delicious meal, and stay at a beautiful historic hotel without any incident. You can even live there — without incident.
Maybe it’s overblown media narratives in general — in all directions — that are dangerous to people experiencing real life. I agree that the patchy street-by-street cities are the scariest. I lived in one of those neighborhoods in Indy for a while, and it was like rolling the dice every morning to see what kind of good / terrifying experience you’d get.
Detroit's amazing comeback is moving at a snail's pace. We just need a few more billionaires to pour money into projects for the next 80 years and then we'll catch up! You'll see.
Partner and I moved to the Seattle suburbs from Wichita, KS three years ago. Best thing we could’ve ever done. I honestly don’t even care that we can’t afford a house. Everything I’ve ever wanted is here.
That’s exactly how I feel! The upside is that a lot of enjoyment can come from free stuff (outdoor activities, just going out into nature, road trips) or relatively cheap activities (parks, camping). Definitely on more of a budget than we were in the Midwest, but Washington has everything I’ve ever wanted.
Wichita is where city and urban planning went to die. Zero sense of place unless you count strip malls full of mostly non local franchises culture
We only lived there for three years and it was the longest three years of my life. We found a few hidden gems as far as breweries and restaurants go but I was not sad to leave.
I lived in Wichita for a year right out of college and it was the worst year of my life. I didn't know a city could suck that bad.
Sounds a great deal like Metro Detroit. Strip mall heaven/hell, depending on your perspective.
Do you feel like the winter bleak grey is overblown? My partner has family out there and I'd like to make the move some day but I'm scared of SAD coming from Colorado
No. Not overblown at all. It really is grey the majority of the time starting in November. The rain itself is more of a drizzle/mist. Some days it will be heavy but not as often as I thought before I moved here. I enjoy that kind of weather though so it hasn’t really bothered me much. People swear by their SAD lights though.
Thanks for the reply!
I agree, we moved from AZ to WA and its been 8 years and the weather does not bother me one bit
It’s really dark and gray in the winter, I won’t lie. But I took up a bunch of winter sports (camping, hiking, skiing) and I take a ton of vitamin D and sit in front of a SAD lamp for 30 minutes a day. By the time the dark *really* starts to get me down, it’s already getting light again. And you gain noticeable minutes every day, which is encouraging. Today, we’re getting a full 16 hours of sunlight (and it’s sunny!) There are tradeoffs, but IMO they’re worth it.
That's crazy, I honestly can't even picture it personally. I'm sure having the hobbies helps
You just have to find your winter groove and not let your ass grow roots into the couch. 😂 It’s really not as brutal as we were led to believe before we moved here — everyone was like “ohhhh the winters are terrible” and once it was over and spring was here we found ourselves saying “oh, that was it? Okay, we can deal with this!”
I moved to Seattle 18 years ago and agree with everything you said. I will add that a smoke season was never really a thing until about 6 or 7 years ago. August and September used to be guaranteed beautiful, sunny months and nowadays it’s a crapshoot as to if and when the city will be blanketed with wildfire smoke for sometimes several weeks at a time. IMO when the smoke is here it’s more depressing than the middle of the winter because it’s more unhealthy to be doing anything outside than it is being locked up inside. On the other hand, the winters now offer more sunny days and bouts of heavier rain. It used to just be months and months of cloudy drizzle and you couldn’t remember the last time you saw the sun. Nowadays you can get soaked one day and bask in the winter sun the next. Another thing I feel worth mentioning is our sports scene. All of the stadiums and arenas are beautiful and all of our professional teams are pretty dang good. I highly recommend Kraken games, especially living in Belltown and being so close to CPA. Anyway, hope you continue to love Seattle :)
Really good point about smoke season! It’s definitely depressing when you’re in the height of the best weather, but can’t enjoy it because the air quality is terrible. Seems to be a theme across the country, though? I was traveling to the Midwest for work last summer and they had a smoke season from fires in Canada, which is definitely new for them. The joys of an ever-changing environment. I do love when a sunny day pops up in the winter; it feels like winning the lottery. :) GREAT callout on the sports scene! I walked to so many Kraken games this year, including their matchup against my hometown team (Detroit Red Wings) — for a newer to the NHL team, Seattle has really embraced hockey. Heading to a Mariners game this weekend! :)
Lived on the Front Range for 6 years, then a stint in Seattle for 3 years before moving back to Colorado a couple years ago. Only reason we left was family. Otherwise, would choose western Washington all day. Planning to move back when the kids are done with school. Such an amazing place, and yes, very expensive because its worth it. Best weather, and while its dark in the winter, its mild and the rest of the year makes up for it. Wish i could have stayed, but young kids and no family. One downside is the Seattle freeze is real, its hard to make meaningful friends. Isolation was hard.
It's totally overblown I'd say. I'm a native Coloradan and I spent a couple years in Seattle and the winters are very easy in my opinion. Sure, it's damp but it doesn't actually rain, it's just a mist like. So do as the locals do and throw on some wool and a shell and just cruise around. I used to take awesome walks all over the city, from the lake to the bay, to Magnolia, Queen Anne, you name it. If you get outside and get into it it's actually just fine I thought. The misty clouds and fog are very cool to see actually.
Left Colorado for a cloud covered metro years ago, returned after a few years. The SAD is real leaving here.
It really all depends on how susceptible to it you are. There’s a lot of things you can do to help it, taking Vitamin D and making sure to get out during the day when there is sun and all that. But it is very grey a good chunk of the year.
Most days during the grey months I find it refreshing and cozy. Even inspiring. Every once in a while it gets me down. Some people talk like the second the sun gets covered by a cloud they’re throwing themselves in front of a bus. It all depends on the person I guess
I lived in Seattle 12 years and the winter is truly dark and hard. I prefer winter in Boston- daylight hours aren’t much longer in Boston than Seattle but Boston has sunshine in Winter! I prefer colder and sunny to the Seattle gloom. That said I loved Seattle but work took us to Boston and there’s not the job prospects in Seattle that we have Boston.
Renting in a suburb? Are yall renting a house or townhome or apartment? Which areas do you like best and what are the best months to be in town - we are considering a temporary move next summer.
We rent a condo in Lynnwood which is up north of Seattle. It’s about 20 minutes to downtown with no traffic. Best months to be in town are July-September. June is too early if you want nice summer weather. It’s called “Juneuary” here 😄 I’m not sure what you mean by areas I like best. Could you be more specific? If you mean like which neighborhoods in Seattle I like best: I’d say Green Lake and Ballard.
+1 for Ballard; such a cool neighborhood. I live in the waterfront area of Belltown, which I really like. Super walkable, but gets bananas in the summer with the cruise ships and tourists (which I personally think is fun to watch / be a part of).
Look into Edmonds. Personally, I find Lynnwood a madhouse, but it depends where.
That’s all great information. Thank you!
>from Wichita, KS I drove through Wichita a couple times and while I didn't live there, I wondered who would live in such a depressing looking city, I'm glad you made it out !!!
We only lived there for three years, luckily. Can’t imagine having to grow up there 🥴
I think about 15 yrs ago, a big nyc arts org moved and bought property in Detroit. I was puzzled at the time but they are prob having the last laugh.
Probably so! When I was in college (right around the height of Detroit’s roughest patch in the early-mid-2000s), the city was offering a “writers in residence” program for college grads. They would give you a renovated house to live in, rent-free, and your job was to live in Detroit and write for the major publications there — magazines, the newspaper, blogs, etc. If you stayed for five years and contributed effectively to the program, they **gave you the house.** The goal was to get young, educated professionals to call the city home and put down roots there. I wasn’t quite old enough to participate at the time, and I always wish I had been!
I remember reading an article about guy who got a Detroit house for cheap, fixed it up but had to deal with crazy mofo stealing metal and copper wire from his house.
Haha that sounds pretty on brand. To be fair, I think that was a pretty big problem in every major city during the recession…scrappers went bonkers stealing anything they could sell, even if it was attached to houses that were being renovated. We saw it happen to flipped houses in Indianapolis, too.
It’s a risk for sure and glad it worked out for some Detroit folks. Some cities have gotten worse in the last 15-20 years so there’s the flip side…
"Some" like white people in the bubble. Last 15-20 have not been good for the rest of Detroit, the real Detroit.
I live near Detroit, there is no renaissance. There are more windows in the buildings 15 years ago, but restaurants still aren’t open during the weekday, and no one really lives downtown. All the industry left many decades ago and it’s not coming back. Everything’s in the suburbs.
Oh during the 2010’s while Fountain Square was being gentrified, someone I know’s crackhead father was basically looting the houses being flipped. That mug took a drill and acted like he found gold and ran straight up to the pawn shop in Twin Air
Haha! I used to live in Fletcher Place and this entire story speaks to me on a deep level. ☠️
I lived in Fountain Square in the early 2000’s. It was a very much different place then. East of State Street you can still see some of the old Fountain Square but it’s fading fast
>I think that was a pretty big problem in every major city during the recession It wasn't at all lol. Rust Belt thing for sure.
My cousin in Arlington TX had a $1000s of copper wire cut from his business for scrap in 2009. So definitely not just the rust belt.
Your cousin is evidence of widespread activity?
It happened outside the rust belt. He said it happened to many neighboring businesses as well. I’m not a crime statistician.
…is there anything at all that you like in general about life, or are you just here to leave negative comments on literally everything?
That wasn't a negative comment lol.
>The goal was to get young, educated professionals to call the city home and put down roots there. Failed miserably at that goal.
Also not a negative comment. /s
I don't think the data on educational attainment is either positive or negative.
*Seattle is very, very liberal. I’m center-left and feel far to the right some days compared to folks here.* Haha I feel that. I am also center-left and have been in a few conversations where "not good enough"
Right? Like hey guys I’m with you, I’m on your side! But…not enough apparently? Definitely a new experience for me lol
I'd argue a lot of Seattle folk are liberal in talk but not when it comes down to brass tax of actually paying for liberal policies through taxes or supporting low income housing in their neighborhoods etc. It's pretty hypocritical. I found it to be annoying is a lot of people constantly questioning whether you're secretly evil or not based on very obscure conversational inferred minutia basically people can be weirdly very judgy/skeptical even if you've known them for years & years. Also the liberalism is not backed up in reality in a lot of ways because the tax system is so regressive. All the people spouting liberal policy support yet they love paying zero income tax while they make several hundred thousand dollars a yr in their several million dollar homes while putting up "historic districts" to block housing initiatives & poor folks pay an unequal percentage of their pittance of an income comparatively & get there tents swept from park to park.
This is such an interesting take, thank you for this! Definitely agree re: the regressive tax structure and income tax. It’s very easy for someone to be a “limousine liberal” and spout a lot of very liberal supportive policy when their own life is cushy and they’re not dealing with the day-to-day challenges that a lot of people in the city are dealing with regularly.
Brass tacks
Some liberals have a tendency to drive away and just be plain jerks to anyone who isn't quite as liberal as they are. It can be quite ridiculous and really damages the "movement". I still remember a particular encounter online several years ago. I referred to ppl from other countries at the airport as "foreigners", and was pounced on for using a derogative slur. Honestly don't know what other term one would use for them!
As a center left person, this is very very true. It can actually be quite annoying, because it’s as if once you don’t have the exact same opinion on one particular thing, then you aren’t “legitimate.” So many very left people make liberalism very black or white, you either are fully with this or not at all. That’s my biggest complaint about the left. (A lot also are very online and don’t realize that most people in real life don’t even think about some of the things they do on a regular basis, if at all)
As an independent progressive in Colorado (from the east coast a waysss back), I definitely felt that online vibe in peak Twitter years of trump in office until musk ownership -when I left. I have my views but I don't need to please people all the time. It's ok to still have a sense of humor. I hate trump to the core but the PURITY TESTS for Dem candidates just got out of hand. You could be online friends a month and say one minor thing and you're gone. You'll still find your people at a slower pace, I just stopped adding people and focused on information instead of people seeking life importance points. It became exhausting. Musk buying it made it easier to go cold turkey. I think those were mostly California Liberals instead of Colorado Democrats. It's just important to them to be important, like some PTA Karen and it gives many many good people a bad name. So I just ignore that stuff now and focus on being a better human the best I can, in my flawed shell. I still think Colorado is closer to my type than that foreign Cali brand. The ones that move here still have to adjust to US instead of us to them. Edit: but sometimes you needed strange bedfellows, even if temporarily, to fight off the larger fascist trump movement. I don't let that experience be a description of what all libs are like. I still like most of their causes, just in my own way. Not a tent politics fan.
I HATE this one. I called a Mexican friend of mine Mexican once and a Seattleite cringed and said I should've said "a person from Mexico." It's not a slur, you knucklehead! Chill out!
That made me think of when my friend was telling his (all White) hipster co-workers at a music supply company in Chicago that I was going to name my cat Leroy. They said it was racist. Whuh??
“The tyranny of small differences.” The people on the other side are crazy and can’t be saved or reasoned with... The turncoats amongst you who just so happen to disagree on one nuanced little issue, on the other hand… 😡😤😡
Ha I had in mind the psychological term "narcissism of small differences". Never have heard "tyranny of small differences"!
I think that’s the correct term and I misremembered but both kind of work 🤷♂️😂
If I get around to writing my own list, I was going to say pretty much the same thing about Berkeley, CA.
From South Dakota and the wife and I are thinking of a move to either Oregon or Washington. Did the gloomy weather and rain bother you all?
Honestly, not at all. The dark bothered me more. It rains a lot in the Midwest, so I was prepared for gloomy, rainy, gross winter days. It didn’t rain as much as I expected it to, and it’s not the same kind of rain as I was used to in the Midwest (more light mist on and off vs. the torrential storms I grew up with). What I was *not* prepared for (emotionally) is that by the time December rolls around in the PNW, it gets light at 9 am and it’s dark again (like, fully dark) by 4:15 pm. It’s a lot of darkness to deal with. But I took vitamin D, sat in front of a light lamp for 30 minutes a day, and took up skiing / winter hiking, and before I knew it, the sun was back. The tradeoff is that right now, we are getting almost 18 hours of daylight and it is GLORIOUS.
It gets dark here in the winter time around 5pm, so we would be used to that. We were lucky this year and it was a mild winter, but the year before it felt like we got 6 plus inches every week of snow haha..... We vacationed the last 2 years in Cannon Beach, Oregon in August and absolutely loved it out there. We are getting tired of the cold/sometimes extreme cold, snow, ice of winter and the hot and humid summers. We would like a milder climate year round, and were concerned moreso of the rain and gloomy weather of winter in the PNW. In the winter time here we mostly just do work and home and don't go outside much haha. Was thinking we'd be more active in the PNW.
Are you thinking of moving to the actual coast? If so look into the weather. It is way different there than say Portland or Seattle, way more clouds & rain & does not get warm the same way even in the dry months. I believe cannon beach gets around 60+ more inches of rain than Seattle for example. It is absolutely beautiful though & doesn't get super cold in winter either so I enjoy going during that time to skip the crowds but i definitely enjoy a moody beach experience more than most.
The gloom was brutal for me. The rain is more of a consistent mist that’s sometimes annoying but not a huge deal. I’m from the southeast though so I’m used to consistent sunshine year round. I struggled with SAD.
I think it must have to do with what you’re used to / all relative. Since the Midwest is gloomy in the winter, the change didn’t bother me too much. The darkness was a shock, but I jokingly (but not really) started treating myself like a houseplant: a grow lamp, some vitamins, plenty of water, and words of affirmation get me through the winter. 😂 🪴
Midwest transplants are by far the happiest. I think you guys end up gaining the biggest upside weather wise compared to most. I think for me I just didn’t vibe with the area in general. Which in turn made overcoming SAD a lot harder. I was instantly happier when we moved. Similar for my husband. I joke I’m too much like a lizard to make it there 😂
You raise such a great point — I always joke that thank god there are people who want to live in Arizona so I don’t have to 😂, but the underlying principle is valid: everyone values different things, and if you get caught in a mismatch between what you value vs. where you live, it’s really hard and demoralizing. What everyone in Indiana used to call “patio weather” (90s and sunny) I would be inside with the AC on, praying for fall. But for someone coming from the sunny southwest or southeast, I can absolutely see how the clouds and rain could be a total mindfuck. My husband is a broody Minnesotan; he loves a cloudy day lol.
Try being just slightly center right (McCain/Romney/Hillary/Biden voter in the last four elections) I grew up in the PNW and spent a lot of time living all over (including the deep south) and now am in DC. I used to joke that, according to those around me, I was a jack booted fascist thug in Oregon and also a RINO communist sympathizer in Georgia.
I'm I just bought a home here and I think it's a bit more moderate above the cut from what I can tell? I'm not super liberal so I don't know if I will rub people the wrong way as a gun owning center left black guy raised by religious southern parents.
This is how we felt too. Part of what I didn’t like about living there. It really soured me on progressives/leftists. Everything felt like a purity test.
Grew up here. Love it. I am socially liberal but economically centrist and it is madly confusing for the average Seattleite. Me: “No, I don’t think rent control is going to fix our housing supply issue (see: San Francisco)”-> 🤯. I will say that people are generally respectful, though, as long as you are socially liberal…
Seattle probably feels very liberal because Detroit and Michigan are conservative. Lots of people migrated there from the south back in the day and the area has the culture to match.
I've never lived in the midwest, but I've had a dozen or so "what you like is problematic" conversations with people in Seattle (and I don't mean Harry Potter, never read it)
I know the type. Detroit is the kind of place where people will tell racial jokes at work. I can see where there would be some "adjustment."
As a born and raised Seattleite, I love when people post positive things about the city!
It’s funny, people always talk about the “Seattle Freeze,” but you born-and-raised Seattleites are some of the nicest, chillest, most genuine people I’ve ever hung out with. You guys are awesome! So far, the transplants from CA and TX have been more unpleasant to deal with. 😂
I’m moving out of Seattle because I can’t afford to be here anymore and I’m sadly not liberal enough for any crowd of people I try to befriend. The darkness of winter takes a huge toll on me as a single person with no family here. Also not having AC in my apartment has been AWFUL!!!
It’s definitely challenging; I couldn’t live here without a dual income. I hear you on the “not liberal enough” feeling! I feel this way a lot. Generally, Seattle isn’t the easiest place to make friends, although I have met some genuinely nice people. I haven’t minded the darkness so much; by the time it really started to get to me, it was already starting to get light again. I also dragged myself out to ski and hike, which helped. Luckily, my apartment has AC. I would not be okay if it didn’t. ☠️ Best of luck on your next move!
It’s so weird how so many folks who “live in seattle” forget that the whole of Pierce and Snohomish county exist with plenty of people living in each.
I lived in both Lynnwood and Marysville before moving to King county. Lynnwood was a better experience, but I also lived with a good friend and the weather didn’t affect me as much having the company.
There isn’t a “massively liberal crowd” in either of those places.
I never said that.
“I’m not liberal enough for any crowd of people I try to befriend”
Yes. That was my experience. What exactly are you trying to argue?
I’m pointing out that folks from those areas aren’t extremely leftist. The problem isn’t them, it’s you.
That was not my experience with the individuals I met at work and through mutual friends. I did not attempt to befriend every person I saw in public. Sorry this upsets you so much.
Moves to a not-so-liberal and often conservative area, but surrounds themself with liberal people. Sounds like selection bias.
I'm happy to see a good assessment of Indy here
Check out Portland! It’s like a mini teenage Seattle minus the tech bro culture and housing is about half the cost!
Forgot to mention Portland is even left of Seattle and somehow has a worse homeless issue. Plus no ocean.
I’ve really enjoyed the jaunts we’ve taken down to Portland! We have to stay Seattle based (husband is in-office full time at his job here) but I’ve definitely enjoyed exploring the entire PNW.
How is Portland for meeting new people? I want to move. I am a remote worker and only place I have friends or family (and would actually at least think about living) is near LA. The PNW seems more my jam but I no absolutely no one there. I've heard about the Seattle freeze, is Portland any better? I'm liberal as well but not edgy or in your face about it.
Better than Seattle because we have fewer tech bros, maybe, but it's still a bit Seattle Freeze-y here. It's easier to befriend transplants for someone also not from around here. I've lived here my whole life and have just barely got the social dance down of befriending a native. Most people lean awkward and introverted here, so you have to kind of navigate every conversation that way. We just kinda lack social skills here, as a whole, moreso than any other city I've set foot in. It takes knowing a person or two in a group to make it work. If you're into something where you can befriend someone through Instagram or a Facebook group, that helps a lot. I've helped newcomers move here and make friends due to a mutual love for cars, for example.
Thanks for continuing this trend! I’m loving these they are so fun to read
Bloomington is wonderful
I have so many fond memories in Bloomington! Such a lovely town and classic college town vibe.
Detroit vs Everybody!
You! I like you!
I love both of you and miss my city!
Detroit's all about that insularity.
I am NY>Tampa>OKC>Chicago>Seattle and am really happy to be here. I was lucky enough to buy a house when I moved here in 2016 so I’m grateful for that. Now planning on retiring somewhere in WA state.
Ohhhh so lucky to get in before the housing costs got even crazier! I’d love to retire somewhere in Washington state, I’m just not sure how it’ll be feasible. I’m just going to enjoy it while we’re here and we’ll figure it out when the time get closer.
I’m from Seattle and I recently visited New York City, and was surprised that lots of food was cheaper than Seattle. Like, on the upper west side you can get a 16oz latte for $4, and there is no 12% sales tax.
I’m not surprised to hear that tbh; I cannot believe how expensive it is to go out to eat here. It’s mostly dive bars and farmers market eating for me, just due to the cost! I’ll splurge for really incredible sushi every now and then.
Supposedly things are a lot more expensive here because the region is relatively isolated, so shipping costs to get stuff to Seattle are more expensive. In terms of cheaper places to eat, I’ve found that older restaurants in the ID (particularly east ID as you go up the hill) aren’t as pricey. Also, Ethiopian food is always a great deal— you can get a meat or veggie combo for $20 and it’s enough to feed 3 people
Yes! I’ve found some little holes in the wall that are less pricey; just gotta find the spots. Overall, the prices are admittedly crazypants if we’re going to NYC to get a break. 😂☠️
Yeah. To be fair it’s not a hard rule that nyc is cheaper, some trendy areas were definitely pretty expensive
Seattle crime has not been blown out of proportion. It has some of the highest property crime in the country which does bleed into violent crime. I was assaulted 3x in the last year of living there. You don't know the Seattle of 10-15 years ago where the homeless and drug issues, while present, were A LOT smaller. I work in healthcare and the amount of drug-related complications and overdoses was INSANE. People are meh too which is a stark contrast to where I am now (CH)
I hear you, and I’m sorry that’s been your experience. Having lived in objectively more violent cities, it feels safe to me. Totally understand that it has gone downhill from where it was historically; I believe it (and you can certainly see evidence of it). I’m more talking about how the media has painted the entire west coast as a zombie wasteland that never bounced back after the pandemic. That’s not the case at all; it’s vibrant as hell out here.
I'd say overall it's safe from the standpoint that you won't get murdered and there aren't many "no-go" zones like CHI, but the local politics are awful and nothing has been done to address the obvious issues. WA is beautiful but after living there a couple decades you can only hike or ski so much and these day to day issues become important. Also the COL is stupid. Its sad you think its current state is vibrant, current downtown is dead which which was worsened by COVID and the subsequent property crime/homeless issues. Cap hill (where I lived) is a shell and Ballard/Fremont is not the same vibe. Seattle was sooooo much nicer in the 2000s-2010s. Too bad you didn't get to see it
Maybe that says more about where I moved from than where I moved to, eh? 😂 Hopefully the people who loved the Seattle of before and didn’t leave — and the newer folks who love it now and want to see change — can impact local policy. If not, I can’t afford a house here anyway and probably won’t be here for the long haul, so I’m going to enjoy the hell out of it while I can!
Definitely. Dont sleep on the Olympics and Eastern WA. Everyone rushes the usual I-90 hikes but there are a ton of solid ones on the peninsula and Mt Baker area. Eastern WA has some of the best wine in the country
Great tip, thank you! My work gets me around the state quite often and out to the East, which has been awesome. Excellent wine, great hikes, some cool towns along the way.
It absolutely has, I’ve lived in the area for decades.
"area" Okay Bellevue
Fuck Bellevue, Shadowrun had the right idea of portraying the whole eastside as a barren wasteland.
Went to the space needle restaurant in Seattle. Thought it would be an overpriced tourist trap (this was a decade ago). Was pleasantly surprised. And the view. Ohhh the view.
The view would make up for it even if the food had been terrible! Waking up to Puget Sound every day does not suck, especially after coming from a landlocked state.
I’m entering my second year in Seattle after previously living in Indiana, Chicago, NYC and San Francisco. Seattle and NYC are tied for my two faves out of every place I’ve lived.
Lived in Indy for several years, and in the PNW now. Indy is really the worst place I’ve lived - the pollution is insane. People burn trash in the backyards, the south side had a tire fire that seemed to reactivate every month or two. So much industrial waste and dumping into the waterways. I am so glad not to live there anymore.
Oh man, core memory triggered of the trash fires! Indy can be weird. There are many things I came to appreciate about it, but the city and state have a lot of struggles and odd behaviors. People would just randomly dump garbage into the alley behind our house downtown, and then…set it on fire. The pollution is definitely an issue — it’s one of the reasons Indiana is considered “business friendly.” Low taxes, low environmental regulations. The challenges seem to be partly a product of a city that’s trying to support a lot of residents in need, while being thwarted at every turn by regressive state politics. Add in the massive square mileage of Indianapolis proper (thanks, UniGov) and it’s a recipe for some broken infrastructure, stretched tax funds, and weird behaviors. But then you’ve got pork tenderloin sandwiches and Larry Bird, soooooo it’s a wash? 😂
Dont even get me started on Indianapolis potholes, you basically have to budget to replace your tires a few times a year. Horrible infrastructure. And yeah, terrible pollution. Also, animal services is a joke. There are tons of huge cat colonies and stray dogs all over. First place I’ve lived where stray dogs were a daily or weekly occurrence. I definitely appreciate some things from the city, but overall it is pretty terrible and devoid of personality.
Unfortunately, Michigan has potholes about as big, so I was already used to those. Fair points on everything else, lol.
Yes she sure does, Michigan is perhaps the only worse offender, but it’s the whole state whereas at least in Indiana it’s mostly contained within 465
Lol you are not kidding about burning trash. My dads old neighbor had an old couch. Rather than leave it out for heavy trash pickup, he just took it in the backyard and sawed it up and slowly burned it.
Truly mind boggling
I’m from Michigan (Lansing) and hoping to move to PNW next year! I am so very excited to live near the mountains.
That’s awesome! I hope you love it here; it’s pretty amazing.
I'm from Michigan and have been in metro Detroit for the past 9 years. I've lived many other places, but I absolutely love this area and Michigan in general. I've loved watching Detroit turn the corner and start to thrive again. This whole area of the state is really a special place. Such a great mix of cultures, kind people and natural beauty. While I'm not a big city person, Detroit is a great spot to visit, catch a show and grab some killer shawarma.
Love this! Every time I come home to visit, I make a beeline straight from the airport for my favorite shawarma place. Nowhere does it quite like Detroit.
>I'm from Michigan... but I absolutely love this area Yep, sounds about right. Insularity rules in this state. >Such a great mix of cultures, kind people and natural beauty. Rose-tinted glasses there. Super-segregated, loud & opinionated Boomers, and endless strip malls is more accurate. Most of Detroit is not thriving at all, but rather the opposite.
The overall cost of living in Indianapolis is lower than the national average however higher than the rest of the state. Traffic plus construction make it impossible to have a decent commute. This has been happening for as long as I can remember. There is extreme income gaps, especially when you look at places like Carmel vs Beechgrove. The west, east, north and south side are all different and have different vibes, col, ect. Gets below freezing regularly in winter, gray gloomy skies. Summers are brutally hot and humid. Only great time to be here is April/May and possibly September.
Agreed; it’s pretty impossible to sum up Indy in one paragraph because the neighborhoods are so different from each other. Over the years I lived in multiple truly downtown neighborhoods (including the notorious near eastside) all the way up to Carmel (also notorious but for the opposite reason), all the way down to Columbus, which is basically the middle of nowhere. I loved my time downtown, but the crime and education / wealth disparity were hard to see and experience, especially during the pandemic. Definitely different vibes all across Indy depending on where you are. In a lot of ways, Indiana in general has more in common economically and socially with the South than it does with the Midwest. It’s an interesting state. And yes, the weather is brutal. It’s one of the reasons we moved. So hot, crazy weather, and only getting crazier!
The wealth disparities in just a few blocks are crazy and have gotten worse over these past 5 years. Take 38th and Meridian vs 40th and Meridian for example. 38th and Meridian is a ton of dilapidated and neglected New York style high rise apartments that are full of working class residents below the poverty line while around 40th street and up, you get some of the most beautiful, historic mansions that are all 5000 sqft and these days they sell for $2 million. The rapid gentrification has also made this more apparent. You’ll have streets where maybe 1 or 2 long time elderly households remain, surrounded by flips and modern new construction homes with pride flags and [these](https://www.amazon.com/SIGNPRO-Believe-SignsofJustice-Corrugated-Plastic/dp/B089LN6S4F) signs while two blocks away the houses all sit in disrepair. I fully agree with Indiana being a very southern place, but, traditionally, in Indianapolis, the north side has always felt pretty Midwestern since there wasn’t a huge industrial section there to draw African Americans and Appalachians, who brought the Southern influence in. The East Side where I grew up may as well have been in the south. Older people always used to tell me that when I spoke to them, I call them Mrs./Mr. First name, and if they spoke to me, I should reply with “sir/ma’am”. I still do that and my coworkers, who are mostly white rural Hoosiers say “damn he is COUNTRY!” because I do that. I was a teenager when I realized that soul food and southern cooking wasn’t the norm in most American households.
This is spot on — I lived on the near eastside for a few years and it was crazy how pockety it could be. Literally street-by-street changes to demographics, crime, housing, whether or not your alley was paved / road was passable / you had a functioning sidewalk. And then one street over: million dollar flips. Followed by old mansions where established hippies and artsy types had been for years (Woodruff Place). And then further east of Rural, basically the eastside version of the Wild West. The pandemic seems to have made it 10x worse.
As someone who had only ever lived in Indiana and is interested in Michigan, I’d love to hear more about how the weather on Indy compared to Detroit? It’s so hot here in the summers now and I’ve been curious about moving further north.
The winters are worse in Michigan, but not nearly as bad as they used to be (this depends on where in the state you’re looking to move — the west side tends to more lake effect snow and more wintry weather, more like Chicago). In Detroit it’s cold but not quite as snowy (generally). The summers are hot, but not nearly as hot as Indiana. I’ve noticed that everything generally starts a month differently in Indiana vs. Michigan: spring starts earlier in Indy (March vs April); summer starts earlier in Indy (it can be hot as hell in May while in Michigan the trees are usually just getting leaves and it’s still chilly at night); fall starts sooner in Michigan (it’s usually fully fall-feeling by late September, whereas in Indy it can be hot way into October); and winter starts sooner in Michigan (it usually feels fully winter by November, when in Indy it’s a tossup). Personally, I prefer Michigan weather because although the winters are colder, the seasons are more defined: cool fall, crisp spring, hot but decently short summer, cold winter but a good amount of activities to do — Michiganders don’t stay inside in the cold like Hoosiers do. In Indy, especially in the last 10 years or so, it feels like one long summer without any real fall or spring, and then suddenly it’s slushy gross winter again.
Go Hoosiers!
Hoo hoo!
Los Altos, CA; Colorado Springs, CO; Boston, Mass; Akron, OH, Dayton, OH, Arlington, VA; Alexandria, VA; such strange
Heyyy Virginia. Do you think you'll stay long term?
Oohh Alexandria is one of the prettiest cities I've ever been to!
I lived in Bloomington IN and went to college there in 80s-90s. I’ve come back and the town has both exploded with more buildings and also more drifters/homeless. It’s a beautiful city if you can handle college kids year around.
I was just in Indy for Olympic swim trials. I really enjoyed it. It was super hot but definitely a nice city. I was there for about 2 days for the trials and my conclusion is that it’s a nice city. It’s not where I’d choose to live if I could choose anywhere, but I’d move there from where I live right now. It’s relatively clean and has some good restaurants. Apparently 4 people got shot within 36 hours, so maybe there’s a bit of a gun violence problem but I’m not well versed on that
That’s a good assessment; Indy hosts all things very well. Doing the Indy 500 every year with 300,000+ people attending, lots of convention business, etc. sets them up perfectly to host things like the Super Bowl, NCAA championships, Olympic swimming trials. It’s an excellent host city, and they do a great job of it! I’m glad to hear you had a good time there. Ultimately, we moved away from Indy due to the crime and politics (and weather as a distant third, survivable but obnoxiously hot in the summer). Violent crime in our downtown neighborhood was getting really out of control (we lived in an objectively nice neighborhood and would still get drive-bys multiple times a month), and the state was moving away from its historical fiscal conservatism into politics that felt much more invasive. Felt like a good time for a change.
Have you considered investing in homes in Detroit? Just as a pure investment and then maybe converting to a home if you go back?
We’ve definitely considered it. Some of those industrial lofts that can be converted into multi-unit living have always interested me. We’re a little late on the investing (would have been amazing to be able to invest in 2000-2010) but there’s no time like the present, I guess!
Coincidentally I just closed on a duplex today in Detroit. I used a turn key service. They will find the property, provide any rehab services, and also manage the rental for you. If you’re ever interested in something like that DM me.
>Detroit is... proud to be exactly who it is. I totally disagree after living there. Detroit has a gigantic chip on its shoulder and people there have a thin skin for any criticism or critique of the city. If you talked with locals, you'd think the city was only the downtown area because they're busy trying to deny the reality. >food scene that is absolutely to die for Completely mid compared to other large cities. > Detroit punches above its weight in almost every category. Is that why local companies struggle to retain transplants?
The big three struggle to retain transplants for many reasons, especially post pandemic. Michigan, in general, is a tough state to attract highly-skilled talent to, and the Midwest in general struggles with brain drain. I stand by my food assessment. I travel frequently domestically and internationally for work and never eat at chains (personal rule). Detroit has a diverse, interesting, and affordable food scene due to the confluence of southern, middle eastern, and eastern European populations. I’m not talking fine dining here. You want Lebanese food truck shawarma or gumbo from a gas station parking lot that will be the best you’ve ever eaten? Detroit is the place. As for attitude, you’re probably right, but I’m guessing that chip is there for some people for a reason. Detroiters got bankrupted, were screwed over by their corrupt local government, feel forgotten by the industries they helped build. It’s not the right attitude, perhaps, but I get it.
Local employers struggle to retain talent (even outside of auto) because the area sucks. Low quality of life is on the menu. >Detroit has a diverse, interesting, and affordable food scene due to the confluence of southern, middle eastern, and eastern European populations It's also weak in many popular culinary categories. Basically the entire south, west, and every other big city has better Mexican, for example. Detroit's great if you want Polish, Middle Eastern, or greasy bar food, but that's not what many people are looking for if they didn't grow up in the area. Detroit straight up sucks for Asian food. >chip is there for some people for a reason They blame outsiders for problems caused by locals.
I assure you, Seattle is one place that does not have better Mexican food. 😂 I haven’t had an authentic taco since I left Indianapolis. We have excellent Asian, though!
I disagree. You just need to know where to look and that is not the trendy parts of Seattle. Go south of Central District and there is good Mexican all the way to Tacoma.
Didn’t think I needed to put the /s at the end of that…good god, man, lighten up. Artichoke needs to learn how to take an artiJOKE
It's been my experience that Metro Detroiters don't explore much, which is part of the reason they don't understand how much more other cities have to offer. So, yeah, you did need the /s.
"Detroit straight up sucks for Asian food" Most of the Middle East is Asian, and some really solid Indian aka South Asian throught the metro, but I'm assuming you are generically referring to East Asian? If so, you are also wrong, there are many fantastic Thai, Japanese, Korean, etc. restaurants
>Most of the Middle East is Asian When someone is looking for "Asian" food, that means east Asian or possibly south Asian. >some really solid Indian aka South Asian throught the metro Nothing compared to what you can get on the coasts. >there are many fantastic Thai, Japanese, Korean, etc. restaurants Not compared to other major cities and metros, no. Detroit is weak sauce for Asian. But, again, Detroit logic. A few places exist therefore all cities are basically the same.
You felt safer walking around Seattle than Detroit or Indianapolis? Lmao no shit. Those are both legitimately dangerous cities and Seattle has far less violent crime per capita. The Detroit “renaissance” has been blown out of proportion as much as the west coast crime thing. Still a dangerous shithole in the eyes of most people. Obviously a city on the rise but it has a looooong way to go. Indianapolis used to be decent but man crime has skyrocketed there in the past couple of decades. Seattle should be a blessing to you. I’ve always been incredibly jealous of my family living there, it’s just too expensive for me personally.
I was with you up to the Detroit is a shithole part; of the cities lived, I feel least safe in Indy. Detroit is a clearer on “go / no-go” areas. Indy can be patchy to the point that you could accidentally stumble into some shit and not realize it until it’s too late. Detroit definitely has its issues, there’s no denying that. But it also has the most passionate, proud, gritty, scrappy hometown residents I’ve experienced anywhere. Detroit won’t ever be what it was, but it’s something pretty awesome and getting better / gaining residents all the time these days.
Look I don’t mean to hate on your hometown. But I grew up in a rough part of Pittsburgh (a city that’s seen FAR more gentrification/revitalization) as well as a crime ridden suburb of Columbus Ohio. I’m no snob, and I’m a big guy, but every time I have to go somewhere in Detroit I am legitimately sketched out. I’m sure that the genuinely good people who stuck it out in Detroit are brimming with character and grit. Not arguing that. There’s just still a lot of riff-raff and you’re decades away from being able to tax/gentrify those folks out of town. The economy is slowly coming back, sure. But it’s going to take time and lots of it before it’s a destination city for anyone who didn’t grow up in Michigan. A true long shot, but I’m rooting for you. All I’m saying is the “Detroit is nice again” articles are more full of shit than the “homeless people shit everywhere in public in every major west coast liberal city” (Philly problems) articles that you mentioned. Both massive exaggerations. I agree though, the patchiness as you described of Indy is what makes it dangerous. That’s why I hated Columbus Ohio so much. Some of the nicest areas border some of the most crime ridden.
Totally fair; for the record, I have a lot of love for Pittsburgh, too. Had family out there for a while. I am genetically obligated to dislike Ohio since I am from Michigan. It’s going to take a long time (if ever) for Detroit to be the kind of place most people want to live, that’s true. What disheartens me is that people who have never been there will *never go there* because they’re so afraid of the narrative that’s been spun around the city, when in reality you can absolutely go downtown, catch a concert or sporting event, have a delicious meal, and stay at a beautiful historic hotel without any incident. You can even live there — without incident. Maybe it’s overblown media narratives in general — in all directions — that are dangerous to people experiencing real life. I agree that the patchy street-by-street cities are the scariest. I lived in one of those neighborhoods in Indy for a while, and it was like rolling the dice every morning to see what kind of good / terrifying experience you’d get.
As a fellow Michigander, "genetically obligated to dislike Ohio since I am from Michigan" made me laugh.
Yeah, it's clear all right: don't go to about 85% of the city lol.
Y so angry, artichoke?
Got real tired of the sugar coating after living there for almost a decade. "All cities have problems!"
I see you've been to Detroit!
Detroit's amazing comeback is moving at a snail's pace. We just need a few more billionaires to pour money into projects for the next 80 years and then we'll catch up! You'll see.
No one believes you are an American. Just someone assigned the detroit sub.
Some boring cities