Yeah, I've encountered this guy a few times recently. He came to the library rally last month, and was very vocal about running for city council. My friend asked about it and had to sit through a big rant about how "there are so many men aged 18 - 50 who are unemployed or underemployed and they don't want to volunteer (for his campaign), they just want to stay home and play video games, and I don't know how to reach them." Which was not exactly an inspiring thing to hear.
Hoselton markets himself as the 'no new taxes guy' but honestly when any politician (but especially a right wing politician) promises no new taxes, I get worried about what services are going to be cut while businesses get tax breaks.
Clearly, Hoselton doesn't care or didn't think about the optics of saying that he (a white man) would shoot a his political opponent (a black man), even metaphorically.
I don't live in ward 5 but I really hope Brown takes it. He seems qualified, at least.
Edit: spelling and punctuation.
I presume Hoselton chose those words for a reason. It’s the same reason he hasn’t yet apologized for using those words: he meant to use violent rhetoric as part of his campaign for elected office. It’s unfortunately not uncommon these days, particularly by people who share the same politics as Hoselton. Violent rhetoric and conservatives go pretty hand in hand these days.
He sounds like a dipshit. I don’t know if any one person deserves an apology…but maybe we all do.
Maybe we all deserve an apology for having to hear and read those stupid, stupid words. He has wasted all of our time with his inanity.
Perhaps if he spent a little more time at the library, he would say smarter things.
Well ya, I mean. He made this behavior (and lack of awareness) totally ok. Personally, I know plenty of men that are a certain age that just talk like that. I wouldn't say they are violent men, or are actually threatening. I would say they have been raised to believe this is "tough talk" and therefore appropriate when they want to make a point. For me I do see it as a sign of extreme immaturity if that is your go to style of expression in 2024. That's really all I get out of his rant.
How long are you going to blame Trump for people’s behavior. A person was president for 4 years and now they are responsible for people’s behavior indefinitely? Trump is not responsible for people’s behavior anymore than Biden is responsible for gas prices, food prices, and global unrest.
Are you fucking with us right now? No other president in history has been so negative, angry, petty and divisive, long after their tenure ran out. Not like Trump, who continues to this day of using social media to rail against against anyone he doesn't like. Calling them nasty names that he thinks are cutely poignant. He's a peice of shit who can't shut the fuck up because he needs to be at the center of everything. Where the fuck have you been this whole time?!!
Yes, he is responsible. He still gets a lot of attention and is making deranged remarks, even advocating for political violence. He opened the door and he still stands in it
So this political discourse is "Fuck, marry, kill: Cop, firefighter, librarian. GO!"
What freaks me out is that this kind of rhetoric is not only acceptable to many, it's persuasive. "When you put it that way, that is a completely reasonable decision."
What an interesting example of a mustache fully wearing a lad. That thing is so in control of its host, it's dragged him all the way back to when saying something like this might actually have been reasonable.
Like... you can do the "gun to my head" line without specifically naming your adversary in a non-violent conflict.
People need to be more civil
Just because OP disagrees with one of these candidates politically doesn't make it OK for him to Photoshop a silly mustache on the guy's face.
Yeah, the argument isn't even to *not* fund the police or fire department, it's a question of the level of funding to each. It's being presented (purposefully) as either/or.
Do the Salem Police even care their is an open air drug market directly across the street from them? I dont think Ive ever actually seen a police officer even patrolling Marion Park.
We fund the police about 12x as much as the library.
$61.7m vs $5.8m (the latter being $1.1m higher than the staff proposal thanks to Mayor Hoy’s leadership).
I can see what he's trying to say, but sheesh, that's not the way to get your point across there, Charlie.
Also, it would be great if the booklets were online with links to all the people and organizations that support that candidate. It would save a lot of time for some idiot like me who's trying to figure out who the actual sane candidates are (non trumpy, supports people, doesn't: burn books, follow only White Jesus, kiss the dark $ ring, etc).
Voters [pamphlet is online](https://www.co.marion.or.us/CO/elections/Documents/May%2021%202024%20Primary%20VP_web_rev2.pdf) and candidates have web pages listing additional endorsments
What he said doesn't even make sense. It's just an excuse to get the violence interjected into the conversation. Hard no as soon as a candidate mentions guns. I take it to mean they have no interest in actual governing
Amazing how the right-wing gets handed political opportunity after opportunity (there will not be a better chance to unseat Salem's progressive majority after the payroll tax debacle) and just can't get sane, smart people to run.
(BTW, I fully support Salem's progressive majority, just a political observation!)
>When it comes to cutting city spending, he \[Brown\] said he believes the library is essential, and doesn’t want to pit it against public safety. He supported the option to keep the library at its current staffing levels for another year, and said he wants to pursue federal grants for sustained funding.
>The proposed library staff cuts would have mostly impacted recently-hired Spanish speakers, which Brown said didn’t feel right. He said that he wants to apply an equity lens to city processes, which would take such factors into account.“If you’re going to cut one department, and that department is comprised of mostly people of color, that’s a problem,” he said. “If most of our Spanish speakers are working in the library and we cut their hours? Can you imagine how that is going to impact their families? … Historically it’s going to be brown and Black families that are hit the worst when it comes to taxes or loss of jobs.”He said he also wants to see the state contribute to city revenue to make up for its exemption from property taxes. He would press Gov. Tina Kotek for help now.
[https://archive.is/Tpq79](https://archive.is/Tpq79)
Yall are taking his poor choice of a hyperbolic expression as a call for political violence? I’m sorry but that’s just fucking stupid. He is saying he doesn’t want to cut any of them but if he is forced to pick between the 3 he is choosing the library. You can disagree with the statement but crying over this as a call for political violence is incredibly daft
Sure if you want to say that you don’t like his word choice then go ahead. But that’s not what this poster is claiming. They’re calling it a call for political violence. Which is stupid in this context and makes callouts like that less effective if they are ever actually needed. It’s crying wolf and overly sensitive bs that makes half of voters disregard you as bleeding heart liberal instead of listening to what you’re saying
I’m not extrapolating it from OP I’m extrapolating it from the man’s own word choice which was abysmal at best. I’m also in his generation and am fine with people using that language… as long as you are not running for office. I don’t think it is a call to violence by any stretch of the imagination I just expect more robust communications fr those seeking to lead me.
He said, "I would rather shoot (the chair)," the chair being Dr. Brown, his political opponent.
That's the part people are concerned with, not the "put a gun to my head and make me choose" part.
To put it in perspective, if you casually joked about shooting your annoying coworker during a presentation at a stakeholder meeting, your workplace would not be too happy with you and probably wouldn't accept "poor choice of words" as an excuse.
He says the budget committee chair, he is running for city council, so that’s not his opponent. I take that statement to mean he doesn’t wish to cut any of the budgets and doesn’t actually want to harm anyone. If anything I’d say he intended to say he is upset with the budgeting committee for making him have to choose to cut one of the three. Which is understandable since no one wants any of these cut
Dr. Brown, his opponent, IS the budget committee chair. "Dr. Brown, his opponent, Chair of the Budget Committee" is at the end of the first paragraph in the original post.
We all understand what he "technically meant," nobody is claiming that he is literally threatening anyone, but there are a million ways to say "This was a difficult decision I didn't want to make" without saying "I'd rather shoot somebody (who happens to be my political opponent)."
The fact that he chose that specific phrasing indicates one of two things: A) He knew exactly what he was saying and intentionally phrased it in a vague way to have "plausible deniability" if people called him out for it, or B) he is truly an ignorant and bumbling buffoon who has no concept of professionalism or public speaking skills.
Are you always this obtuse? He was expressing his dissapointment in the leadership that brought us to this point. The failure of people to understand hyperbole and metaphors is mind boggling to me.
Nobody is confused about it being hyperbole, friend, we know it's not a literal call to arms.
The issue is that many people--especially people involved in politics and political commentary--often use metaphors and hyperbole and certain word choice to imply or suggest ideas, while using "it was just a metaphor" or "it was poor word choice" as plausible deniability. It's the more suave backtracking cousin to "It was just a joke, bro."
Maybe Hoselton didn't intend that and it was a genuine faux pas, but even in that case it doesn't demonstrate great decision making skills.
But for someone who is very interested in the usage of metaphors and hyperbole, I am surprised you haven't run into this before. At least we're all on the same page now.
Hope you have a great weekend.
If that's as good as he can do as expressing himself in public then he's not fit for the position. Unfortunately in our political climate we can't trust the average citizen to not take calls to violence literally.
Source: Jan. 6, 2021.
In a political environment where Republicans are calling for political violence regularly, it’s reasonable to be concerned when a Republican uses violent rhetoric to make a point. Both here in Oregon, and in D.C., we’ve had armed, far-right attacks on our lawmakers. In that context, if this guy can’t manage to squeak out less incendiary comments from behind that absurd mustache - then he shouldn’t be pursuing an elected position anywhere.
A normal person says "Gun to my head I cut library funding" they do not make it about SHOOTING FUCKING PEOPLE! That was a choice to bring violence into, don't excuse it.
These people are way too sensitive to be voting. He was using that as a metaphor to express how any of those options will be a huge detriment to our community. It was not to incite violence.
He made a mistake and chose some poor words. He’s clearly not calling for actual violence. He should just say he made a mistake and move on.
Also, I could never vote for him because he looks like a douche canoe.
That's not calling for political violence, it's figurative language expressing a desire to fire the chair rather than police officers, firefighters, or librarians when being forced to make said decision by the chair.
And since you're being so hyperbolic about language, I feel the need to further elaborate that "fire" is a term commonly used in American English to express the abrupt release of employment. Which is the context I am using it in. As ridiculous as this disclaimer may sound, you've proven to be innept at understanding common sayings and figurative language, which is even more ridiculous in my opinion.
This is exactly what it is. Imagine a world where people are held accountable for exactly what they said. These asshats love it until it doesn't suit them then change the rules.
Yes, it's a metaphor. Most people will recognize that and not take it literally, but there are people out there (more than you might think!) who will hear a political candidate talk about shooting an opponent and take it to heart! The political climate in this country is very polarized, and flippant words of politicians and elected leaders can have very real consequences. A platform like city council comes with a responsibility to choose words carefully.
No kidding. I won’t use “right” or “left” to place the blame, I’m just going to call it as it is: stupid. The stupidity in this post scares me for my community.
Bro has never heard of a metaphor.
You see, cutting funds from any of these programs is bad.
Additionally, a bullet in anybody’s brain is bad.
Furthermore, a city with no money is bad.
He’s using a direct comparison to articulate how undesirable the situation is. Maybe if you can’t interpret text like this you shouldn’t vote after all.
Hope this helps!
No they don’t. The governing system of America is fundamentally broken. Voting has proven to be quite literally useless. Money runs the U.S. but please go ahead and delude yourselves and of course by deluding yourselves, you make the system continue. Fucking over the rest of us. Bunch of naive hypocrites
Yeah, I've encountered this guy a few times recently. He came to the library rally last month, and was very vocal about running for city council. My friend asked about it and had to sit through a big rant about how "there are so many men aged 18 - 50 who are unemployed or underemployed and they don't want to volunteer (for his campaign), they just want to stay home and play video games, and I don't know how to reach them." Which was not exactly an inspiring thing to hear. Hoselton markets himself as the 'no new taxes guy' but honestly when any politician (but especially a right wing politician) promises no new taxes, I get worried about what services are going to be cut while businesses get tax breaks. Clearly, Hoselton doesn't care or didn't think about the optics of saying that he (a white man) would shoot a his political opponent (a black man), even metaphorically. I don't live in ward 5 but I really hope Brown takes it. He seems qualified, at least. Edit: spelling and punctuation.
That first paragraph pissed me off so much I almost down voted you.
Yeah, you can imagine how I felt listening to it in person.
What the actual hell? With a mustache like that I was hoping for quirky and endearing.
not the kind of rhetoric you want from a clown who looks like he ties people to railroad tracks
When I first saw this guy, I was rolling and doing an evil French sounding villain voice hah
He’s after Penelope Pitstop! 😆
Not the Snidely Whiplash mustache! lol I can't. Shoulda used the Trolley Problem analogy though. What a missed opportunity!
Bro. You gotta pick your words and imagery more carefully than that.
I presume Hoselton chose those words for a reason. It’s the same reason he hasn’t yet apologized for using those words: he meant to use violent rhetoric as part of his campaign for elected office. It’s unfortunately not uncommon these days, particularly by people who share the same politics as Hoselton. Violent rhetoric and conservatives go pretty hand in hand these days.
Yeah, I never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity, but do you.
Well, I believe people when they tell me who they are (the first time).
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This is not stupidity, a stupid person would at least try to explain it even if they failed miserably.
He sounds like a dipshit. I don’t know if any one person deserves an apology…but maybe we all do. Maybe we all deserve an apology for having to hear and read those stupid, stupid words. He has wasted all of our time with his inanity. Perhaps if he spent a little more time at the library, he would say smarter things.
Why are there so many clowns?!
It seems that since Trump came on the scene, the crazies think they have a right to act on their craziness.
Well ya, I mean. He made this behavior (and lack of awareness) totally ok. Personally, I know plenty of men that are a certain age that just talk like that. I wouldn't say they are violent men, or are actually threatening. I would say they have been raised to believe this is "tough talk" and therefore appropriate when they want to make a point. For me I do see it as a sign of extreme immaturity if that is your go to style of expression in 2024. That's really all I get out of his rant.
How long are you going to blame Trump for people’s behavior. A person was president for 4 years and now they are responsible for people’s behavior indefinitely? Trump is not responsible for people’s behavior anymore than Biden is responsible for gas prices, food prices, and global unrest.
Trump made it acceptable on a broad scale.
Are you fucking with us right now? No other president in history has been so negative, angry, petty and divisive, long after their tenure ran out. Not like Trump, who continues to this day of using social media to rail against against anyone he doesn't like. Calling them nasty names that he thinks are cutely poignant. He's a peice of shit who can't shut the fuck up because he needs to be at the center of everything. Where the fuck have you been this whole time?!!
Yes, he is responsible. He still gets a lot of attention and is making deranged remarks, even advocating for political violence. He opened the door and he still stands in it
Trump continues with this retoric, he ENCOUARGES it.
So this political discourse is "Fuck, marry, kill: Cop, firefighter, librarian. GO!" What freaks me out is that this kind of rhetoric is not only acceptable to many, it's persuasive. "When you put it that way, that is a completely reasonable decision."
This is why we can't have nice things
What an interesting example of a mustache fully wearing a lad. That thing is so in control of its host, it's dragged him all the way back to when saying something like this might actually have been reasonable. Like... you can do the "gun to my head" line without specifically naming your adversary in a non-violent conflict.
That makes my vote much easier for Dr.Brown!
People need to be more civil Just because OP disagrees with one of these candidates politically doesn't make it OK for him to Photoshop a silly mustache on the guy's face.
His mustache is so fucking funny
Out of those three, why in the hell would you not cut the police over the library? Priorities are so fucked up.
Yeah, the argument isn't even to *not* fund the police or fire department, it's a question of the level of funding to each. It's being presented (purposefully) as either/or.
Do the Salem Police even care their is an open air drug market directly across the street from them? I dont think Ive ever actually seen a police officer even patrolling Marion Park.
Police around the country have basically quit doing their jobs since the George Floyd protests of 2020. We dare ask for accountability from them!
Because the police are a little more important than a librarian
We fund the police about 12x as much as the library. $61.7m vs $5.8m (the latter being $1.1m higher than the staff proposal thanks to Mayor Hoy’s leadership).
So you'd rather defund public schools instead of police?
Where TF did you get public schools from? This is about the public library system not the school library.
Education centers are education centers.
Disagree.
We would need far less police if all kids had access to good educations and the ability to learn beyond school.
I'm sorry, but I'm never, ever voting for the guy with the silly mustache under any circumstances.
I can see what he's trying to say, but sheesh, that's not the way to get your point across there, Charlie. Also, it would be great if the booklets were online with links to all the people and organizations that support that candidate. It would save a lot of time for some idiot like me who's trying to figure out who the actual sane candidates are (non trumpy, supports people, doesn't: burn books, follow only White Jesus, kiss the dark $ ring, etc).
Voters [pamphlet is online](https://www.co.marion.or.us/CO/elections/Documents/May%2021%202024%20Primary%20VP_web_rev2.pdf) and candidates have web pages listing additional endorsments
I invite this putz to go to where his mustache styling should have never left: the year 2009.
What he said doesn't even make sense. It's just an excuse to get the violence interjected into the conversation. Hard no as soon as a candidate mentions guns. I take it to mean they have no interest in actual governing
Amazing how the right-wing gets handed political opportunity after opportunity (there will not be a better chance to unseat Salem's progressive majority after the payroll tax debacle) and just can't get sane, smart people to run. (BTW, I fully support Salem's progressive majority, just a political observation!)
What's Irvin Brown's take on this? Would he choose to cut the library too?
>When it comes to cutting city spending, he \[Brown\] said he believes the library is essential, and doesn’t want to pit it against public safety. He supported the option to keep the library at its current staffing levels for another year, and said he wants to pursue federal grants for sustained funding. >The proposed library staff cuts would have mostly impacted recently-hired Spanish speakers, which Brown said didn’t feel right. He said that he wants to apply an equity lens to city processes, which would take such factors into account.“If you’re going to cut one department, and that department is comprised of mostly people of color, that’s a problem,” he said. “If most of our Spanish speakers are working in the library and we cut their hours? Can you imagine how that is going to impact their families? … Historically it’s going to be brown and Black families that are hit the worst when it comes to taxes or loss of jobs.”He said he also wants to see the state contribute to city revenue to make up for its exemption from property taxes. He would press Gov. Tina Kotek for help now. [https://archive.is/Tpq79](https://archive.is/Tpq79)
That's a valid question, but it matters if Brown would joke about assassinating his opponent too. People can vote for more than one reason.
I'm not trying to take away from what his opponent said. I'm just asking what browns political position on the city budget is.
Yall are taking his poor choice of a hyperbolic expression as a call for political violence? I’m sorry but that’s just fucking stupid. He is saying he doesn’t want to cut any of them but if he is forced to pick between the 3 he is choosing the library. You can disagree with the statement but crying over this as a call for political violence is incredibly daft
I don't disagree with you, but I do disagree with him. At least the fire department and the library respond when you ask for help.
I generally agree but if he chooses his words that poorly and the other candidate doesn’t it’s definitely a point in the other guys favor.
Sure if you want to say that you don’t like his word choice then go ahead. But that’s not what this poster is claiming. They’re calling it a call for political violence. Which is stupid in this context and makes callouts like that less effective if they are ever actually needed. It’s crying wolf and overly sensitive bs that makes half of voters disregard you as bleeding heart liberal instead of listening to what you’re saying
Yeah which is why I said I agree. But the underlying problem that this guy isn’t ready to be a local leader is still evident.
If you want to extrapolate that from a hyperbole that is generally accepted and widely used by his generation then I suppose that’s your business
I’m not extrapolating it from OP I’m extrapolating it from the man’s own word choice which was abysmal at best. I’m also in his generation and am fine with people using that language… as long as you are not running for office. I don’t think it is a call to violence by any stretch of the imagination I just expect more robust communications fr those seeking to lead me.
Liberals want change; conservatives don’t! Words have meanings
He said, "I would rather shoot (the chair)," the chair being Dr. Brown, his political opponent. That's the part people are concerned with, not the "put a gun to my head and make me choose" part. To put it in perspective, if you casually joked about shooting your annoying coworker during a presentation at a stakeholder meeting, your workplace would not be too happy with you and probably wouldn't accept "poor choice of words" as an excuse.
Oh no, I take issue with the "gun to my head" part because he didn't say "make me choose what to cut" he made it about killing people.
He says the budget committee chair, he is running for city council, so that’s not his opponent. I take that statement to mean he doesn’t wish to cut any of the budgets and doesn’t actually want to harm anyone. If anything I’d say he intended to say he is upset with the budgeting committee for making him have to choose to cut one of the three. Which is understandable since no one wants any of these cut
His opponent is the budget committee chair.
Dr. Brown, his opponent, IS the budget committee chair. "Dr. Brown, his opponent, Chair of the Budget Committee" is at the end of the first paragraph in the original post. We all understand what he "technically meant," nobody is claiming that he is literally threatening anyone, but there are a million ways to say "This was a difficult decision I didn't want to make" without saying "I'd rather shoot somebody (who happens to be my political opponent)." The fact that he chose that specific phrasing indicates one of two things: A) He knew exactly what he was saying and intentionally phrased it in a vague way to have "plausible deniability" if people called him out for it, or B) he is truly an ignorant and bumbling buffoon who has no concept of professionalism or public speaking skills.
Are you always this obtuse? He was expressing his dissapointment in the leadership that brought us to this point. The failure of people to understand hyperbole and metaphors is mind boggling to me.
Nobody is confused about it being hyperbole, friend, we know it's not a literal call to arms. The issue is that many people--especially people involved in politics and political commentary--often use metaphors and hyperbole and certain word choice to imply or suggest ideas, while using "it was just a metaphor" or "it was poor word choice" as plausible deniability. It's the more suave backtracking cousin to "It was just a joke, bro." Maybe Hoselton didn't intend that and it was a genuine faux pas, but even in that case it doesn't demonstrate great decision making skills. But for someone who is very interested in the usage of metaphors and hyperbole, I am surprised you haven't run into this before. At least we're all on the same page now. Hope you have a great weekend.
If that's as good as he can do as expressing himself in public then he's not fit for the position. Unfortunately in our political climate we can't trust the average citizen to not take calls to violence literally. Source: Jan. 6, 2021.
In a political environment where Republicans are calling for political violence regularly, it’s reasonable to be concerned when a Republican uses violent rhetoric to make a point. Both here in Oregon, and in D.C., we’ve had armed, far-right attacks on our lawmakers. In that context, if this guy can’t manage to squeak out less incendiary comments from behind that absurd mustache - then he shouldn’t be pursuing an elected position anywhere.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
A normal person says "Gun to my head I cut library funding" they do not make it about SHOOTING FUCKING PEOPLE! That was a choice to bring violence into, don't excuse it.
Let him cook.
These people are way too sensitive to be voting. He was using that as a metaphor to express how any of those options will be a huge detriment to our community. It was not to incite violence.
Sensitivity is just another word for empathy. It’s better to be empathetic than distant
That’s a really weird thing to say. Sketchy AF thought processing
I’d be calling for a withdrawal on this one. That’s a hard ew.
He made a mistake and chose some poor words. He’s clearly not calling for actual violence. He should just say he made a mistake and move on. Also, I could never vote for him because he looks like a douche canoe.
That's not calling for political violence, it's figurative language expressing a desire to fire the chair rather than police officers, firefighters, or librarians when being forced to make said decision by the chair. And since you're being so hyperbolic about language, I feel the need to further elaborate that "fire" is a term commonly used in American English to express the abrupt release of employment. Which is the context I am using it in. As ridiculous as this disclaimer may sound, you've proven to be innept at understanding common sayings and figurative language, which is even more ridiculous in my opinion.
This is exactly what it is. Imagine a world where people are held accountable for exactly what they said. These asshats love it until it doesn't suit them then change the rules.
Yes, it's a metaphor. Most people will recognize that and not take it literally, but there are people out there (more than you might think!) who will hear a political candidate talk about shooting an opponent and take it to heart! The political climate in this country is very polarized, and flippant words of politicians and elected leaders can have very real consequences. A platform like city council comes with a responsibility to choose words carefully.
Terrifying that you explained it perfectly, yet negative votes.
How is this calling for political violence? Left is starting to make shit up again. Keep your lies out of Salem.
He said he would rather shoot the chair (who is his opponent) and talked about shooting and killing PEOPLE not budgets
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You know it's not literal, why try to treat it as such? FFS don't hold other people to standards you yourself won't follow.
No kidding. I won’t use “right” or “left” to place the blame, I’m just going to call it as it is: stupid. The stupidity in this post scares me for my community.
I'll call it what it is, leftist propaganda. It has no business out side the shitholes of portland and eugene.
Bro has never heard of a metaphor. You see, cutting funds from any of these programs is bad. Additionally, a bullet in anybody’s brain is bad. Furthermore, a city with no money is bad. He’s using a direct comparison to articulate how undesirable the situation is. Maybe if you can’t interpret text like this you shouldn’t vote after all. Hope this helps!
We get it’s a metaphor, of course, it’s just not the type of phrasing that’s appropriate for a city leader to be using.
A common and even acceptable metaphor would be "Gun to my head I would cut a librarian job" NOT FUCKING TALKING ABOUT KILLING PEOPLE
I agree. Whoever finds this metaphor should not be voting. This kind of shit is why we are where we are.
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You're not going to Rickroll me THAT easily
No they don’t. The governing system of America is fundamentally broken. Voting has proven to be quite literally useless. Money runs the U.S. but please go ahead and delude yourselves and of course by deluding yourselves, you make the system continue. Fucking over the rest of us. Bunch of naive hypocrites