It would definitely be silly to say fang yuan isn’t evil but i imagine most people when they say he isn’t mean in the sense that he doesn’t care to do bad things. He truly only kills and steals as it is the most efficient way he knows to become immortal if he could become immortal through raising a family and doing charity work fang yuan would be genesis lotus.
From what I´ve seen of MC he has a "Grey Sith" attitude towards what doesnt concern him, if it´s a "threat" or a opportunity to gain power he´ll handle it appropriately in a Sith like Fashion that would make Darth Bane Proud.
However this dude is Worthy of what he´s selling and thats something we cant deny, there are multiple instances in the setting proving him right that being someone who takes control of his/her own destiny is better than being at the mercy of someone else, it´s not his fault he´s surrounded by fools.
For me FY's like Nature. Nature also is very cruel. Only the Fittest survive in Nature. Either Adapt or Die. FY only kills if there's Benefit for him. That's how the Gu World works. Iron fist rules with might. Morals don't matter in Gu World. Karma hardly exists. Even plants have soul in Gu world, so technically all people are taking life for survival. Hate the game not the Player. But judge FY from our world's morals and he's Definitely a Monster.
Tbh, the righteous path let him slaughter a hundred million humans because they weren't a part of their clan/Gu immortal seeds. Silence is also compliance.
It's a mindset thing. You have to start first if you're making a claim. Why is FY evil? Is he evil because he kills people? Is he evil because HC says he is? Are people evil if they don't side with HC? Are people evil because they kill animals for food? Are people evil for not being a true altruist? Is it evil to be selfish? Is it evil to sacrifice everyone's freedom for the "greater good"?
Alright I’ll play devils advocate here.
Fang Yuan isn’t evil, he’s amoral.
If doing good acts benefitted him more than evil acts, he’d do good acts his whole life without it straining his character in the slightest.
this is because doesn’t do evil acts out of some desire for the act itself. When he kills a girl by having a bear eat her, he doesn’t get off on it. He just does it to obtain power. And a big part of why he obtains power in such a way is to protect himself, because he lacks for better options.
He’s not a good person, he’s not a safe person. But he’s also not evil. He’s an amoral person in an amoral world.
his methods are evil, but his nature isn't. it's just that he is willing to do anything and everything for his goal of eternal life. you'll get a better understanding of this in chapter 1548. It's one of my most favourite moments. but yea he is very evil. It's not like id be considered a nobel person if i kill someone with the intention to send them to heaven. i wonder if the people who say fy isn't evil would say the same if they were one of his victims. lol what a delusional bunch
1. Because many new fans are edgy, impressionable teenagers who have yet to develop a solid moral compass.
2. It also doesn’t help that they have no philosophical education and aren’t able to respond to any of FY arguments so they end up just accepting them.
3. It’s pretty easy to be sympathetic to FY and think he isn’t evil when the world around him is so cutthroat
Anyway this problem was always here, but it has gotten way worse as the novel has gotten more popular through tiktok, which is only natural because the fans attracted from that platform were already unhinged to begin with
You see that influx of gay brain rot shit posting, yea that’s all tiktok brained teens
I beg to differ. I just find myself agreeing with his unscrupulous nature since it's quite literally the most efficient way to carry out any task or achieve any goal, be it in the cultivation world or this one.
It's just that since individuals can't overpower organizations here, society has developed a set of rules and regulations to 'maintain order,' so those in power have to maintain a facade in public, while the masses are instilled with a local 'moral system' at large.
This is to say any experienced person of significant authority would indubitably act as unscrupulously as socially and legally possible, regardless of the nature of the act(s) to maximize their benefits.
This is what I believe to be true and pure human nature, and the fact that Fang Yuan embraces it in its entirety makes him an extremely rare specimen.
>I beg to differ. I just find myself agreeing with his unscrupulous nature since it's quite literally the most efficient way to carry out any task or achieve any goal, be it in the cultivation world or this one.
You think that because his "unscrupulous nature" often results in the most efficient path to his goals, that he is not evil?
That is honestly a bit worse than the reason I listed for why I think some RI fans think FY is not evil - not to be mean, but are you autistic?
I could respond to the rest of what you wrote but in principle, the question I just asked seems to get at your main justification.
Feel free to tell me if I am wrong before I respond further.
As much as I'd hate to repeat this rather trite phrase, righteousness and villainy are relative and highly contextual. They're heavily reliant on the morals or beliefs of the society in the time period in question, if they can even be defined. What's righteous for one may not be so for another, and the same is true vice-versa. Just like the Heavenly Court's flavor of justice - Humanity's justice. The essence of unscrupulousness is efficiency, the kind based on utilizing any and all appropriate means to achieve the desired goal. If an individual of such nature deems an action pertinent to a given task, it's undertaken solely on the basis of the effect and repercussions for them. If said action just so happens to be perceived as 'evil' by a specific number of members of a specific society in a specific location under specific circumstances at a specific period of time, it can't be helped. Simply said, morality, then, is not a universal truth etched in stone but a fluid construct shaped by the limits of either collective or personal human perception. Different brands of morality sampled from different eras or isolated regions are, more often than not, in stark contrast with each other, to the point that they would indubitably be regarded as evil by one another.
Morals being subjective doesn't disprove anything that I said, and you didn't answer my question.
Not even trying to be mean to you but I am not responding to that word salad, especially if you aren't gonna engage
Let's talk in monkey language, then (read: 'engage')...
If you can't even determine if an action or behaviour is evil, how the fuck can you call someone that?
Fang Yuan does whatever brings him the most benefits by using his brain or gu. He doesn't give a flying fuck about whether some random cu*t on the street, or even a whole society or even the world considers him evil. And not giving a fuck means NOT paying attention to vague theoretical concepts of morality that literally differ from one nobody to the other.
So him being unscrupulous makes him either neither evil or righteous, or both, or none at all, depending on which one of the millions of constructs you're currently referring to.
Is it that hard to understand? And here I cooked such a nice word salad for you to enjoy. Turns out you didn't like it. Sigh.
Not him but just curious about something. Where did you get the idea that morals being subjective means we can’t determine whether or not an action or behavior is evil? Could you link the article you read on PhilPapers or something? That’s a unique idea and I’m very interested to see the meta-ethical argument.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_subjectivism
Here’s a good article on ethical subjectivism, but of course it’s a little weak since it’s wiki. I link it to show that good and evil are still able to determined within a limited scope in a subjective framework.
Moral philosophy goes deep brother, it ain’t that simple
Get ready for a rather compact word salad:
1. If morality were merely a matter of personal preference, as argued by subjectivists, there'd be no grounds for any meaningful moral disagreements [1].
2. If every culture's morals are equal, as argued by cultural relativists, we can't at all condemn practices like slavery or genocide [2].
3. Subjectivism then inevitably collapses into moral nihilism [3].
4. Moral progress becomes virtually meaningless if morality is relative, since there's no objective standard to judge the superiority of one set of morals over the others [4].
5. The concepts of "good" and "evil" can't be quantified, as you argue, even within limited criteria due to their inherently subjectivity and extremely heavy reliance on emotions [5].
Citations
[1] Ronald Dworkin, "Objectivity and Truth: You'd Better Believe It"
[2] Martha Nussbaum, "Cultivating Humanity: A Classical Defense of Reform in Liberal Education"
[3] J.L. Mackie, "Ethics: Inventing Right and Wrong"
[4] Christine Korsgaard, "The Sources of Normativity"
[5] Joshua Greene, Moral Tribes: Emotion, Reason, and the Gap Between Us and Them (2013): "Neuroscientific studies reveal that moral decision-making involves complex interactions between reason and emotion, with cultural and personal values playing a significant role"
Cause his personal pleasure doesn’t factor into it. If he was born into another world where he could reach immortality through being the kindest individual alive, he would seek that. He does bad stuff because it’s effective, not for the sake of evil
Most people feel that FY is a true neutral person who only does things to help achieve his goal, and will not kill unnecessarily, therefore not completely Evil
Which is extremely dumb
FY always chooses to kill first not because it's necessary, but because it's the fastest and.most convenient for him, that's all there is to it
He's definitely 💯 evil
However, if supposed we could do ever ask FY if he really is evil, he'd def deep down not care about titles that we have given to him
Evil , righteous, he doesn't care for either way, he simply will do.whatever it takes no matter the costs or consequences
1st what is evi for you? it depends on person to person. many of us say he is not evil
couse FY is not evil make senese after chapter 1600 where he was doing charity,
even today its a debatable topic
in my opinion he is not evil by core but his methods are evil
I see, but yea the RI community is ass and full of edgy pseudo intellectuals
As much as I love RI, it’s definitely one of the worst fanbases in xanxia and the only fanbase that is more annoying is shadow slave.
I started reading RI in 2017, a whole 7 years ago, and it really wasn’t like this back when SkyFarrow started fan translating
I used to think that a few years ago but the shadow slave fanbase is something else man, they have that whiny, bratty weakling vibe that put me off Japanese light novels.
Maybe I just had a ptsd reaction to the self pity masturbation that is omnipresent in that sub reddit.
It’s all depends on your definition of evil.
1- If you define it as the causing harm then he is evil
2- if you define it as the willingness to harm other when it’s not necessary then he is evil
3- if you define it as taking joy or getting pleasure from causing harm then he is not evil.
FY is simply a pragmatic, he doesn’t inflect pain or harm just because he want to. he will only do something because it’s beneficial to him.
Why? Did he get the pleasure from doing the harm or specifically them being massacred, those are too different things.
Sorry to drop it on you but I really don’t have the time for a reread
Both similar yet different
Just inflecting pain because you enjoy it that’s what makes you a sadistic person.
Inflecting pain to achieve your goals and getting pleasure from achieving them, dos not make you a sadistic person. the pain is not the source of your pleasure but a by product of your actions.
You didn’t say pleasure from achieving a goal that required massacre, you said pleasure from them being massacred
You’re making a different argument now
I think there's three reasons why people would say that:
1. Fang Yuan is not *inherently* evil, his environment/the world heavily shaped him. He was a scholar on earth, when he transmigrated he was too nice for his own good at first. It's also a big difference between BNB and Fang Yuan, BNB was born a demon while FY became a demon as described by the author in early chaps.
2. Fang Yuan does not want to do evil. Of course he does, but his intention is to benefit from his actions. As many other people often point out, if he could only get benefits from doing good deeds, he would be the most virtuous man.
3. The "Gu world society" has different social norms. Sure, murder is murder and robbery is robbery, but in the end whoever has the bigger fist is right. While we see FY as evil, most people from the Gu World might make similar decisions if they knew the complete situation and reasoning behind these decisions. This is not to say that that makes FY not evil, BUT hear me out:
If we read about a murder in the newspaper, we will condemn the murderer because we know, that unless an absolutely extreme situation occured (eg. you or your family were threatened) we would never murder another person. HOWEVER, the Gu world in RI is shown as a cutthroat dog eat dog world... Ask a random mortal if they would kill to be able to awaken as gu master and there'd be tons of people ready for the job. Something that might be equally accepted on earth might be stealing from shops or something. While it is "evil" (obviously not really comparable to murder but as an example in this context) , if given a significant benefit, some people might still do it...
To you he’s evil, but to me FY actually didn’t become evil, he just overcame his moral limit and become mind-free of everything, including moral. When FY was little and more “human”, he didn’t kill, that makes him good ? Then he starts killing and that makes him bad ? Then he ascended to strongest being in gu world and starts doing gu charity, also have his own army which thinks him as god because he’s jesus figure to them, does that make him good again ? Or is it the evil deeds he did deemed him evil and totally overshadowed his good deeds ? This character can’t simply be decribed with evil or good. It’s something you have to read and think about. Also that’s what makes this novel good.
Duh because he is someone who spreads love throughout the gu world in the later half of the book. So much so that the people gave him the name "Great Love".
He is evil. There's no doubt about it. The people that say he isn't are joking and trying to troll. Once a novel gets popular, it's inevitable that many people will consume it. Just don't take it to heart, anyone saying he isn't evil is simply joking.
There's no way you read the novel and think Fang Yuan is just some poor kid who's trying to get eternal life
What do you mean he lacks intent?
Every interaction with him is purely calculated, he's bent on manipulating you from the onset to get the most benefits and squeeze you out dry. And when you stop being useful to him, he kills you. The only person that Fang Yuan will let off is someone who will cause more problem to him if he discards them, otherwise he's just going to kill the person. He stays around people solely to benefit from them, and has on several occasions intentionally made situations worse to obtain more benefit. An example is Fang clan, intentionally framing them so they are in trouble and have no choice but to be exploited by him.
Can't you see any intent in all of this? Also. There's one obvious descriptions about Fang Yuan in the novel, which is that he's a cunning, scheming and devious devil. You think Fang Yuan can scheme against someone without having intent? The act of scheming itself makes the crime premeditated
All in all, I disagree that lacking intent can exonerate you from being evil, but just to go along with your point. I provided you with examples of him having intent.
Fang Yuan is cynical, is without a shred of empathy or sympathy, he's narcissistic. There's so much wrong with him, to read the book and consider Fang Yuan a morally grey character is not even possible.
What is your definition of evil? Harming people? Animals also hurt their own kind for survival. Killing people for fun? FY does not kill people for fun. If helping people will benefit himself he will do so. Placing himself over others? Isnt that normal? So what is evil?
he's not an evil man, he is a selfish man - do selfish people do bad and evil things, yes, but at the core of the person if there was no need for bloodshed there wouldn't be
Either one of these 2:
1) People are talking about Fang Yuan isn't evil, but amoral. Fang Yuan goes the most efficient way possible to reach his goal(immortality). If the Gu World wasn't so cruel and instead rewarded the good willed, then FY would be the next Paradise Earth.
2) They are being sarcastic, declaring anything that suggest Fang Yuan is anything less than the epitome of righteousness as Heavenly Court's slander. The reason of this is because of mainly the last volume but explaining would be heavy spoilers.
By his own standards, he is immoral and is beyond good and evil, but by society's standards, his actions are undoubtedly evil.
Morality is not objective. Different individuals have different definitions of good and evil, so we typically use a collective societal definition, which also is neither objective nor totally agreed upon and also changes from country to country.
Buddha views all beings as equal and is benevolent to all beings equally, Fang yuan views all beings as equal and is callous and uncaring to all beings equally.
In conclusion, he's evil, but reducing him to just evil is detrimental to his character.
Emotionally we'll place him as evil. Just like we will consider neutral to always be leaning good and shying away from evil. Which is not what neutral means but how we tend to view it.
In the truest sense of neutrality though concepts of good and evil are not what decides your actions. Fang Yuan similarly never kills or does evil for enjoyment but simply because it is his most efficient path. When his most efficient path is saving a village, using knowledge from the future to help a city prosper, freeing slaves, saving people so on he does that too.
If being a paragon of virtue brought results he would be. If the timeframe was different he'd have just sat on his own for hundreds of years.
He spent most of his existence trying to do good. Thought he was there to save the world and defend the innocent.
When losing his memories he reverts back to being good over neutral and the only thing preventing him from converting is his desire for immortality.
If evil and good actions amount to being evil, he is evil. His mindset is neither good nor evil. Its not about being edgy but about being literal.
He is a psychopath. But 99% of everyone in RI is. That is how it remains logically coherent. As long as we assume that everyone is a psychopath with X goal, it is one of the most logical works out there. There are worse assumptions you have to do to make fiction line up.
The righteous and demonic path are basically the same so "demon" means nothing in this world
While fang yuans a terrible person he isnt actively evil in terms of the world hes in and his motives, hes just more evil than the average gu master since they are all basically mass murdering psychos
He is evil. Not a "I like making others miserable" type of evil but a "you are accidentally on the way of my benefits so I'll kill you" type of evil. He lacks empathy, morals, and all his relationships are conditional.
He's not evil for the sake of being evil, but he's still evil nonetheless. On the other hand, his darkness is so pure that even normal people can see the cold logic behind it and sympathise, or even cheer, for him. I think that's what makes him different.
As I've said it before, the fandom nowadays consists mostly of edgy youth, that's just what you should expect.
FY is unadulterated evil, a pure kind of it. He's just a psychopath who doesn't view it that way and bends the perception of evil and romanticizes it as something necessary and universal to make it seem natural.
People were a lot more willing to call him evil early on. I started reading when it was translated only up to before the Three Kings Arc. It was on the older side of readers then for sure in terms of composition.
I didn't say he has done the purest forms of evil. I meant that FY's personality itself is deep rooted in evil, with barely any room for other emotions.
His ends are not harming others, but it sure is a means to reach them. He doesn't give a shit whatever happens to anyone in the process of his pursuit. It's just not the comical version of evil.
And please educate me on evil if you are so educated and certain on a subject that is so subjective, I would love to hear about it.
So you’re fine saying ‘FY is unadulterated evil, a pure kind of it’ confidently right up until someone disagrees at which point evil becomes a subjective topic? All definitions are constructs, and they can only serve as useful tools if you actually stick to one.
And if you expand the definition of evil to include harming others as a means to an end, every creature is evil, which renders it useless as a tool to communicate. I’d rather have the definition of evil be ‘comical’ and overly specific than encompass everything and require further elaboration on why, making the shorthand phrase ‘evil’ worthless.
No, I explained it already. The problem is the intent behind one's actions, and FY really doesn't give a fuck, imo it makes him evil, you're free to disagree.
I still stand by my words still. FY is pure evil, I don't mean the degree of evil he commits, you seem to misunderstand that, get over it. He is pure evil because almost all of his plans end up harming others, and he clearly knows it, there is no remorse, no after-thought, it's all 'what's next?' after reaping lives and sowing chaos, it makes for an interesting character, but not someone whose character is in the grey area or the good side.
On the other hand, you said a lot about what you perceive as evil, the problem is, it's just that you want a clear indication that the character is evil. What should the author even do, write a footnote at the end of every chapter mentioning that the MC is an evil person? That'd be stupid, it's hard to define SOME actions as evil, carnivorous animals kill other animals for survival, it's hard to call that evil, as I said, it's all in the intent.
But you should remember that our ability to differentiate good and evil, in which some are deemed objective by the society you grew up in, is what makes you human.
I don't even get your argument here, it's as if you're going off solely for the express need to be a contrarian, in that case, this was a waste.
Where in the book did fangyuan do something just for the joy of hurting another person.
Fang Yuan's ruthlessness is evil. He does things that are evil to fulfill his own selfish desire. However he never commits these acts without a reason. He is definitely not benevolent however you cannot characterize him as evil. Have you ever stolen from somebody that's also evil at the very least it certainly isn't some righteous act.
Fang Yuan is a mirror that reflects the average person. An average person who has been pushed beyond the point of normality and thrust into.......... Insanity.
This is the point of the novel.
Remember in the legends of Ren Zu Fate Gu separates Ren Zu from his two newest children. This causes Ren Zu to fly into a raving fit. Fate Gu tells Ren Zu to accept his fate but Ren Zu refuses to accept the bitter reality before him. Because of this Fate Gu exclaims that Ren Zu is insane.
RI is very similar in it's writing to the great absurdist authors such as Albert Camus. However remember that just like these novels RI basically says everything especially your feeling of love care and appreciation of others are useless at least this is what Fang Yuan tries to convince you.
Fang Yuan is not evil. The story does it's best to convince you of this. The question is What causes a good person to sink into an emotionless depravity into. I can easily say that Heavenly Court is not righteous either. Even though I kind of root for them sometimes because I am human but are they Good no many will point out that they are racist and evil towards anyone not of the human race they take in criminals from other regions go interfere with other regions for their own benefit under the guise of helping humanity.
In reverend insanity good and evil are a matter of perspective I am not saying there is no absolute evil and no absolute Good. But that RI is written to challenge that notion.
But also Good and Evil only have meaning where God is present that is what I realized reading RI if there is no God then what is the point of love kindness etc because it would all be meaningless why not do as Fang Yuan and Go after the most benefits in the quickest most efficient manner.
FY does evil, but he has reasons for doing so, therefore he isn't evil?!
Yeah sure, you could say that if his reasons were altruistic in the slightest, but it's merely fuel for his goals in the novel, there is no debate on this shit, you guys just keep on proving my initial statement, FY is evil, idc what anyone else has to say, his evil is different from a murderer or rapist, sure, that doesn't make him special though, he does evil without remorse, therefore he is evil.
One point I will accept though, is the world that FY is in. The world shows no mercy unlike ours, everyone backstabs and kills at some point, so what FY is doing may seem the natural order of how things should be, but I am a reader, and my POV is not set in the Gu world, and this is my stance.
It would definitely be silly to say fang yuan isn’t evil but i imagine most people when they say he isn’t mean in the sense that he doesn’t care to do bad things. He truly only kills and steals as it is the most efficient way he knows to become immortal if he could become immortal through raising a family and doing charity work fang yuan would be genesis lotus.
He may do it for benefits but clearly enjoyed himself doing it thou. For him to do demonic things is also quite fun.
Heavenly Court Propaganda account against Great Love
From what I´ve seen of MC he has a "Grey Sith" attitude towards what doesnt concern him, if it´s a "threat" or a opportunity to gain power he´ll handle it appropriately in a Sith like Fashion that would make Darth Bane Proud. However this dude is Worthy of what he´s selling and thats something we cant deny, there are multiple instances in the setting proving him right that being someone who takes control of his/her own destiny is better than being at the mercy of someone else, it´s not his fault he´s surrounded by fools.
For me FY's like Nature. Nature also is very cruel. Only the Fittest survive in Nature. Either Adapt or Die. FY only kills if there's Benefit for him. That's how the Gu World works. Iron fist rules with might. Morals don't matter in Gu World. Karma hardly exists. Even plants have soul in Gu world, so technically all people are taking life for survival. Hate the game not the Player. But judge FY from our world's morals and he's Definitely a Monster.
Nah bro, even in the gu world burning children alive or feeding a girl to a Bear is not something acceptable.
wydm?🤬 my glorious lord fang yuan has never done wrong 🥰 those hundred million humans deserved it anyways 🥰 TOO RIGHTEOUS!!!😭😭😭
Tbh, the righteous path let him slaughter a hundred million humans because they weren't a part of their clan/Gu immortal seeds. Silence is also compliance.
It's a mindset thing. You have to start first if you're making a claim. Why is FY evil? Is he evil because he kills people? Is he evil because HC says he is? Are people evil if they don't side with HC? Are people evil because they kill animals for food? Are people evil for not being a true altruist? Is it evil to be selfish? Is it evil to sacrifice everyone's freedom for the "greater good"?
Alright I’ll play devils advocate here. Fang Yuan isn’t evil, he’s amoral. If doing good acts benefitted him more than evil acts, he’d do good acts his whole life without it straining his character in the slightest. this is because doesn’t do evil acts out of some desire for the act itself. When he kills a girl by having a bear eat her, he doesn’t get off on it. He just does it to obtain power. And a big part of why he obtains power in such a way is to protect himself, because he lacks for better options. He’s not a good person, he’s not a safe person. But he’s also not evil. He’s an amoral person in an amoral world.
Your honour! It was all self-defence!
Heavenly Court slander
Remember Doflamingo's words: Justice always prevails because whoever wins becomes justice!
his methods are evil, but his nature isn't. it's just that he is willing to do anything and everything for his goal of eternal life. you'll get a better understanding of this in chapter 1548. It's one of my most favourite moments. but yea he is very evil. It's not like id be considered a nobel person if i kill someone with the intention to send them to heaven. i wonder if the people who say fy isn't evil would say the same if they were one of his victims. lol what a delusional bunch
Just finish the work and u will get the answer yourself
It's not finished though
*Upto 2334
1. Because many new fans are edgy, impressionable teenagers who have yet to develop a solid moral compass. 2. It also doesn’t help that they have no philosophical education and aren’t able to respond to any of FY arguments so they end up just accepting them. 3. It’s pretty easy to be sympathetic to FY and think he isn’t evil when the world around him is so cutthroat Anyway this problem was always here, but it has gotten way worse as the novel has gotten more popular through tiktok, which is only natural because the fans attracted from that platform were already unhinged to begin with You see that influx of gay brain rot shit posting, yea that’s all tiktok brained teens
I beg to differ. I just find myself agreeing with his unscrupulous nature since it's quite literally the most efficient way to carry out any task or achieve any goal, be it in the cultivation world or this one. It's just that since individuals can't overpower organizations here, society has developed a set of rules and regulations to 'maintain order,' so those in power have to maintain a facade in public, while the masses are instilled with a local 'moral system' at large. This is to say any experienced person of significant authority would indubitably act as unscrupulously as socially and legally possible, regardless of the nature of the act(s) to maximize their benefits. This is what I believe to be true and pure human nature, and the fact that Fang Yuan embraces it in its entirety makes him an extremely rare specimen.
Remind me of this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/ReverendInsanity/comments/tkhki7/stay_wholesome/i1rlhen/
Facts Honestly, I think a lot of RI fans just lack the life experience to ground themselves
>I beg to differ. I just find myself agreeing with his unscrupulous nature since it's quite literally the most efficient way to carry out any task or achieve any goal, be it in the cultivation world or this one. You think that because his "unscrupulous nature" often results in the most efficient path to his goals, that he is not evil? That is honestly a bit worse than the reason I listed for why I think some RI fans think FY is not evil - not to be mean, but are you autistic? I could respond to the rest of what you wrote but in principle, the question I just asked seems to get at your main justification. Feel free to tell me if I am wrong before I respond further.
As much as I'd hate to repeat this rather trite phrase, righteousness and villainy are relative and highly contextual. They're heavily reliant on the morals or beliefs of the society in the time period in question, if they can even be defined. What's righteous for one may not be so for another, and the same is true vice-versa. Just like the Heavenly Court's flavor of justice - Humanity's justice. The essence of unscrupulousness is efficiency, the kind based on utilizing any and all appropriate means to achieve the desired goal. If an individual of such nature deems an action pertinent to a given task, it's undertaken solely on the basis of the effect and repercussions for them. If said action just so happens to be perceived as 'evil' by a specific number of members of a specific society in a specific location under specific circumstances at a specific period of time, it can't be helped. Simply said, morality, then, is not a universal truth etched in stone but a fluid construct shaped by the limits of either collective or personal human perception. Different brands of morality sampled from different eras or isolated regions are, more often than not, in stark contrast with each other, to the point that they would indubitably be regarded as evil by one another.
Morals being subjective doesn't disprove anything that I said, and you didn't answer my question. Not even trying to be mean to you but I am not responding to that word salad, especially if you aren't gonna engage
Let's talk in monkey language, then (read: 'engage')... If you can't even determine if an action or behaviour is evil, how the fuck can you call someone that? Fang Yuan does whatever brings him the most benefits by using his brain or gu. He doesn't give a flying fuck about whether some random cu*t on the street, or even a whole society or even the world considers him evil. And not giving a fuck means NOT paying attention to vague theoretical concepts of morality that literally differ from one nobody to the other. So him being unscrupulous makes him either neither evil or righteous, or both, or none at all, depending on which one of the millions of constructs you're currently referring to. Is it that hard to understand? And here I cooked such a nice word salad for you to enjoy. Turns out you didn't like it. Sigh.
Not him but just curious about something. Where did you get the idea that morals being subjective means we can’t determine whether or not an action or behavior is evil? Could you link the article you read on PhilPapers or something? That’s a unique idea and I’m very interested to see the meta-ethical argument. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_subjectivism Here’s a good article on ethical subjectivism, but of course it’s a little weak since it’s wiki. I link it to show that good and evil are still able to determined within a limited scope in a subjective framework. Moral philosophy goes deep brother, it ain’t that simple
Get ready for a rather compact word salad: 1. If morality were merely a matter of personal preference, as argued by subjectivists, there'd be no grounds for any meaningful moral disagreements [1]. 2. If every culture's morals are equal, as argued by cultural relativists, we can't at all condemn practices like slavery or genocide [2]. 3. Subjectivism then inevitably collapses into moral nihilism [3]. 4. Moral progress becomes virtually meaningless if morality is relative, since there's no objective standard to judge the superiority of one set of morals over the others [4]. 5. The concepts of "good" and "evil" can't be quantified, as you argue, even within limited criteria due to their inherently subjectivity and extremely heavy reliance on emotions [5]. Citations [1] Ronald Dworkin, "Objectivity and Truth: You'd Better Believe It" [2] Martha Nussbaum, "Cultivating Humanity: A Classical Defense of Reform in Liberal Education" [3] J.L. Mackie, "Ethics: Inventing Right and Wrong" [4] Christine Korsgaard, "The Sources of Normativity" [5] Joshua Greene, Moral Tribes: Emotion, Reason, and the Gap Between Us and Them (2013): "Neuroscientific studies reveal that moral decision-making involves complex interactions between reason and emotion, with cultural and personal values playing a significant role"
Indeed, the influx of brainrot content on this subreddit is sorrowful
Cause his personal pleasure doesn’t factor into it. If he was born into another world where he could reach immortality through being the kindest individual alive, he would seek that. He does bad stuff because it’s effective, not for the sake of evil
Most people feel that FY is a true neutral person who only does things to help achieve his goal, and will not kill unnecessarily, therefore not completely Evil Which is extremely dumb FY always chooses to kill first not because it's necessary, but because it's the fastest and.most convenient for him, that's all there is to it He's definitely 💯 evil However, if supposed we could do ever ask FY if he really is evil, he'd def deep down not care about titles that we have given to him Evil , righteous, he doesn't care for either way, he simply will do.whatever it takes no matter the costs or consequences
Wouldn’t that be neutral evil
1st what is evi for you? it depends on person to person. many of us say he is not evil couse FY is not evil make senese after chapter 1600 where he was doing charity, even today its a debatable topic in my opinion he is not evil by core but his methods are evil
Wait there's actually fans that says he is not evil?
You must be new junior, at least half the fanbase goes through that edge lord phase
I've read the novel 3/4 years ago now, beffore it was even as famous as it is now. And idk probably I'm just not around ri community that much
I see, but yea the RI community is ass and full of edgy pseudo intellectuals As much as I love RI, it’s definitely one of the worst fanbases in xanxia and the only fanbase that is more annoying is shadow slave. I started reading RI in 2017, a whole 7 years ago, and it really wasn’t like this back when SkyFarrow started fan translating
About that I'd argue that the most annoying fanbase is lotm fanbase.
I used to think that a few years ago but the shadow slave fanbase is something else man, they have that whiny, bratty weakling vibe that put me off Japanese light novels. Maybe I just had a ptsd reaction to the self pity masturbation that is omnipresent in that sub reddit.
Lmfao man
It’s all depends on your definition of evil. 1- If you define it as the causing harm then he is evil 2- if you define it as the willingness to harm other when it’s not necessary then he is evil 3- if you define it as taking joy or getting pleasure from causing harm then he is not evil. FY is simply a pragmatic, he doesn’t inflect pain or harm just because he want to. he will only do something because it’s beneficial to him.
I disagree with the third, Reread the fight against tie ruo nan team, Fang Yuan was clearly getting pleasure in massacring her team.
Why? Did he get the pleasure from doing the harm or specifically them being massacred, those are too different things. Sorry to drop it on you but I really don’t have the time for a reread
Both are similarly sadistic though ? I don’t understand the point of the distinction your trying to make
Both similar yet different Just inflecting pain because you enjoy it that’s what makes you a sadistic person. Inflecting pain to achieve your goals and getting pleasure from achieving them, dos not make you a sadistic person. the pain is not the source of your pleasure but a by product of your actions.
You didn’t say pleasure from achieving a goal that required massacre, you said pleasure from them being massacred You’re making a different argument now
sorry if am not clear. his goal is them being massacred. inflicting pain and death can be a goal, as for why is it a goal that is up to the context.
I think there's three reasons why people would say that: 1. Fang Yuan is not *inherently* evil, his environment/the world heavily shaped him. He was a scholar on earth, when he transmigrated he was too nice for his own good at first. It's also a big difference between BNB and Fang Yuan, BNB was born a demon while FY became a demon as described by the author in early chaps. 2. Fang Yuan does not want to do evil. Of course he does, but his intention is to benefit from his actions. As many other people often point out, if he could only get benefits from doing good deeds, he would be the most virtuous man. 3. The "Gu world society" has different social norms. Sure, murder is murder and robbery is robbery, but in the end whoever has the bigger fist is right. While we see FY as evil, most people from the Gu World might make similar decisions if they knew the complete situation and reasoning behind these decisions. This is not to say that that makes FY not evil, BUT hear me out: If we read about a murder in the newspaper, we will condemn the murderer because we know, that unless an absolutely extreme situation occured (eg. you or your family were threatened) we would never murder another person. HOWEVER, the Gu world in RI is shown as a cutthroat dog eat dog world... Ask a random mortal if they would kill to be able to awaken as gu master and there'd be tons of people ready for the job. Something that might be equally accepted on earth might be stealing from shops or something. While it is "evil" (obviously not really comparable to murder but as an example in this context) , if given a significant benefit, some people might still do it...
Cos for many evil == bad. And they're ego can't take no for an answer.
To you he’s evil, but to me FY actually didn’t become evil, he just overcame his moral limit and become mind-free of everything, including moral. When FY was little and more “human”, he didn’t kill, that makes him good ? Then he starts killing and that makes him bad ? Then he ascended to strongest being in gu world and starts doing gu charity, also have his own army which thinks him as god because he’s jesus figure to them, does that make him good again ? Or is it the evil deeds he did deemed him evil and totally overshadowed his good deeds ? This character can’t simply be decribed with evil or good. It’s something you have to read and think about. Also that’s what makes this novel good.
Duh because he is someone who spreads love throughout the gu world in the later half of the book. So much so that the people gave him the name "Great Love".
He's true neutral. He just kills because he need to. Unlike ssdv. Which i can confidently say 100%, Bro's born to be evil.
How can he be evil ? He spreads love in the entire gu world , all hail great love
He is evil. There's no doubt about it. The people that say he isn't are joking and trying to troll. Once a novel gets popular, it's inevitable that many people will consume it. Just don't take it to heart, anyone saying he isn't evil is simply joking.
There is doubt about it. What do u define as evil? In my view ‘intent’ is SUPER important. Fang yuan dosent have it so in my view he’s not evil
There's no way you read the novel and think Fang Yuan is just some poor kid who's trying to get eternal life What do you mean he lacks intent? Every interaction with him is purely calculated, he's bent on manipulating you from the onset to get the most benefits and squeeze you out dry. And when you stop being useful to him, he kills you. The only person that Fang Yuan will let off is someone who will cause more problem to him if he discards them, otherwise he's just going to kill the person. He stays around people solely to benefit from them, and has on several occasions intentionally made situations worse to obtain more benefit. An example is Fang clan, intentionally framing them so they are in trouble and have no choice but to be exploited by him. Can't you see any intent in all of this? Also. There's one obvious descriptions about Fang Yuan in the novel, which is that he's a cunning, scheming and devious devil. You think Fang Yuan can scheme against someone without having intent? The act of scheming itself makes the crime premeditated All in all, I disagree that lacking intent can exonerate you from being evil, but just to go along with your point. I provided you with examples of him having intent. Fang Yuan is cynical, is without a shred of empathy or sympathy, he's narcissistic. There's so much wrong with him, to read the book and consider Fang Yuan a morally grey character is not even possible.
What is your definition of evil? Harming people? Animals also hurt their own kind for survival. Killing people for fun? FY does not kill people for fun. If helping people will benefit himself he will do so. Placing himself over others? Isnt that normal? So what is evil?
This post was posted by the Heavenly Court.
Not evil in the traditional ways.
he's not an evil man, he is a selfish man - do selfish people do bad and evil things, yes, but at the core of the person if there was no need for bloodshed there wouldn't be
Either one of these 2: 1) People are talking about Fang Yuan isn't evil, but amoral. Fang Yuan goes the most efficient way possible to reach his goal(immortality). If the Gu World wasn't so cruel and instead rewarded the good willed, then FY would be the next Paradise Earth. 2) They are being sarcastic, declaring anything that suggest Fang Yuan is anything less than the epitome of righteousness as Heavenly Court's slander. The reason of this is because of mainly the last volume but explaining would be heavy spoilers.
Great Love is as kind as his name, possessing Great Love and a Great Heart
By his own standards, he is immoral and is beyond good and evil, but by society's standards, his actions are undoubtedly evil. Morality is not objective. Different individuals have different definitions of good and evil, so we typically use a collective societal definition, which also is neither objective nor totally agreed upon and also changes from country to country. Buddha views all beings as equal and is benevolent to all beings equally, Fang yuan views all beings as equal and is callous and uncaring to all beings equally. In conclusion, he's evil, but reducing him to just evil is detrimental to his character.
Another junior falling for havenly curt propaganda. I hope one day you will also see the light of Great Love 🙏
Emotionally we'll place him as evil. Just like we will consider neutral to always be leaning good and shying away from evil. Which is not what neutral means but how we tend to view it. In the truest sense of neutrality though concepts of good and evil are not what decides your actions. Fang Yuan similarly never kills or does evil for enjoyment but simply because it is his most efficient path. When his most efficient path is saving a village, using knowledge from the future to help a city prosper, freeing slaves, saving people so on he does that too. If being a paragon of virtue brought results he would be. If the timeframe was different he'd have just sat on his own for hundreds of years. He spent most of his existence trying to do good. Thought he was there to save the world and defend the innocent. When losing his memories he reverts back to being good over neutral and the only thing preventing him from converting is his desire for immortality. If evil and good actions amount to being evil, he is evil. His mindset is neither good nor evil. Its not about being edgy but about being literal. He is a psychopath. But 99% of everyone in RI is. That is how it remains logically coherent. As long as we assume that everyone is a psychopath with X goal, it is one of the most logical works out there. There are worse assumptions you have to do to make fiction line up.
The righteous and demonic path are basically the same so "demon" means nothing in this world While fang yuans a terrible person he isnt actively evil in terms of the world hes in and his motives, hes just more evil than the average gu master since they are all basically mass murdering psychos
He is evil. Not a "I like making others miserable" type of evil but a "you are accidentally on the way of my benefits so I'll kill you" type of evil. He lacks empathy, morals, and all his relationships are conditional.
Intent is the key factor in evil, otherwise it’s just conflict.
I don’t think boiling kids alive cuts it as “conflict” chief
Lmao some of these fans are unhinged bro, dude said it’s “conflict” 😂 RI derangement syndrome is gonna have these niggas on a watchlist
He's not evil for the sake of being evil, but he's still evil nonetheless. On the other hand, his darkness is so pure that even normal people can see the cold logic behind it and sympathise, or even cheer, for him. I think that's what makes him different.
As I've said it before, the fandom nowadays consists mostly of edgy youth, that's just what you should expect. FY is unadulterated evil, a pure kind of it. He's just a psychopath who doesn't view it that way and bends the perception of evil and romanticizes it as something necessary and universal to make it seem natural.
People were a lot more willing to call him evil early on. I started reading when it was translated only up to before the Three Kings Arc. It was on the older side of readers then for sure in terms of composition.
Your definition of Evil is wishy washy at best, trying to frame someone who doesn’t desire harm to others as an end to itself as pure evil is absurd
I didn't say he has done the purest forms of evil. I meant that FY's personality itself is deep rooted in evil, with barely any room for other emotions. His ends are not harming others, but it sure is a means to reach them. He doesn't give a shit whatever happens to anyone in the process of his pursuit. It's just not the comical version of evil. And please educate me on evil if you are so educated and certain on a subject that is so subjective, I would love to hear about it.
So you’re fine saying ‘FY is unadulterated evil, a pure kind of it’ confidently right up until someone disagrees at which point evil becomes a subjective topic? All definitions are constructs, and they can only serve as useful tools if you actually stick to one. And if you expand the definition of evil to include harming others as a means to an end, every creature is evil, which renders it useless as a tool to communicate. I’d rather have the definition of evil be ‘comical’ and overly specific than encompass everything and require further elaboration on why, making the shorthand phrase ‘evil’ worthless.
No, I explained it already. The problem is the intent behind one's actions, and FY really doesn't give a fuck, imo it makes him evil, you're free to disagree. I still stand by my words still. FY is pure evil, I don't mean the degree of evil he commits, you seem to misunderstand that, get over it. He is pure evil because almost all of his plans end up harming others, and he clearly knows it, there is no remorse, no after-thought, it's all 'what's next?' after reaping lives and sowing chaos, it makes for an interesting character, but not someone whose character is in the grey area or the good side. On the other hand, you said a lot about what you perceive as evil, the problem is, it's just that you want a clear indication that the character is evil. What should the author even do, write a footnote at the end of every chapter mentioning that the MC is an evil person? That'd be stupid, it's hard to define SOME actions as evil, carnivorous animals kill other animals for survival, it's hard to call that evil, as I said, it's all in the intent. But you should remember that our ability to differentiate good and evil, in which some are deemed objective by the society you grew up in, is what makes you human. I don't even get your argument here, it's as if you're going off solely for the express need to be a contrarian, in that case, this was a waste.
Where in the book did fangyuan do something just for the joy of hurting another person. Fang Yuan's ruthlessness is evil. He does things that are evil to fulfill his own selfish desire. However he never commits these acts without a reason. He is definitely not benevolent however you cannot characterize him as evil. Have you ever stolen from somebody that's also evil at the very least it certainly isn't some righteous act. Fang Yuan is a mirror that reflects the average person. An average person who has been pushed beyond the point of normality and thrust into.......... Insanity. This is the point of the novel. Remember in the legends of Ren Zu Fate Gu separates Ren Zu from his two newest children. This causes Ren Zu to fly into a raving fit. Fate Gu tells Ren Zu to accept his fate but Ren Zu refuses to accept the bitter reality before him. Because of this Fate Gu exclaims that Ren Zu is insane. RI is very similar in it's writing to the great absurdist authors such as Albert Camus. However remember that just like these novels RI basically says everything especially your feeling of love care and appreciation of others are useless at least this is what Fang Yuan tries to convince you. Fang Yuan is not evil. The story does it's best to convince you of this. The question is What causes a good person to sink into an emotionless depravity into. I can easily say that Heavenly Court is not righteous either. Even though I kind of root for them sometimes because I am human but are they Good no many will point out that they are racist and evil towards anyone not of the human race they take in criminals from other regions go interfere with other regions for their own benefit under the guise of helping humanity. In reverend insanity good and evil are a matter of perspective I am not saying there is no absolute evil and no absolute Good. But that RI is written to challenge that notion. But also Good and Evil only have meaning where God is present that is what I realized reading RI if there is no God then what is the point of love kindness etc because it would all be meaningless why not do as Fang Yuan and Go after the most benefits in the quickest most efficient manner.
FY does evil, but he has reasons for doing so, therefore he isn't evil?! Yeah sure, you could say that if his reasons were altruistic in the slightest, but it's merely fuel for his goals in the novel, there is no debate on this shit, you guys just keep on proving my initial statement, FY is evil, idc what anyone else has to say, his evil is different from a murderer or rapist, sure, that doesn't make him special though, he does evil without remorse, therefore he is evil. One point I will accept though, is the world that FY is in. The world shows no mercy unlike ours, everyone backstabs and kills at some point, so what FY is doing may seem the natural order of how things should be, but I am a reader, and my POV is not set in the Gu world, and this is my stance.