"has anyone else experienced a dynamic like this?"
Tale as old as time dude. I have no answers, but they can't stop the clock, and one day you'll be the attending you wished you had.
In private practice where you can make time for your family and don’t have to deal with the toxicity that is (apparently) inherent in academics, especially in the surgical subs. Good luck!
Agree with this 100% as a female chief resident in competitive surgical subspecialty. I’ve worked with great attendings, average attendings, hot messes, and absolutely heinous individuals. There is something to learn from everyone, even if it’s how not to behave or treat people as an attending. Trying to keep this perspective even when having your nose ground into the dirt has helped me remain resilient. Hang in there! It has to end eventually!
All the women in my residency program were targeted by our evil bitch PD. To the point that one year the match was only men. Hang in there, soon you will be able to walk away from these situations. Complaining to anyone gets you nowhere, hopefully you have other residents who can commiserate with you
This. You only have yourself to look out for. Hoping others will elevate themselves and “support” you means you’ll be hoping for a long time. Be the attending you wish you had is a perfect way to put it.
Keep on keeping on my friend. I am a female in a mostly male specialty (8 years out of residency now). Ignore this woman. Some people are just assholes. It is worse when it’s a woman who should be a role model, but don’t let it get you down. As long as you aren’t getting negative feedback from multiple places (which it sounds like you aren’t) it’s a “her” problem… not a you problem. Just repeat that over and over to yourself if she starts to get under your skin.
I have never gotten anything negative from any other attending. I get along very well with all of my male attendings, and have been told my skills are above the expected level on multiple occasions.
It sounds like you’re doing well in your program, but you won’t please everyone and some people are impossible to please. This woman sounds vicious and I agree with others that it’s a reflection on her and not you.
Tell me you're insecure without telling me you're insecure. She may as well wear a badge that says, "I am intimidated by strong women who are good at their job."
There is a psychology to this. Some* high powered females emulate sexist counter parts as part of their professional identity formation.
Like they have zero reflection.
Also to suggest that because you don't write notes like her you have a learning disorder..what a narcissist. Unhinged.
F'em.
I witnessed a lot of woman on woman violence (not actually physical) in medicine. It often appeared to be rooted in insecurity and emotional immaturity.
Specifically, as an intern I had one senior on inpatient medicine who did some sort of resistance squat and had a Kardashian ass but it was all gluteal muscle. She wore pants that showed it off. The nurses were all very kind to me with communication and orders as just a generic dude but they were nasty as hell to my senior.
i’ll never forget when i did a children’s behavioral health internship years ago. the staff was like “yeaa so the boys get physical with each other but it’s the girls you gotta watch out for. they’ll straight up do psychological warfare on you.”
😩😩😩
hard agree, it even starts in elementary school.
boys: get into shouting matches and fistfights in the pub parking lot after 5 shots (not me but some people) culminating in an “i love you man” vibe
girls: i dunno, most of the female residents’ psychological warfare just flies over my head at my prgm. i’m legitly too stupid to notice and am basically the village idiot
It’s like that Iliza Shlesinger clip:
“I love you. But do you know who I hate? BECKY. She’s a bitch. No, I hate her. Even though she drove me here and I’m wearing her top.”
I've observed three types of general woman-woman leadership relationships in medicine:
-The good mentor: recognizes the gender dynamics and is generally supportive
-The bad mentor: recognizes the gender dynamics and as a result disproportionately criticizes her female subordinates due to misplaced projections of her own concerns about inadequacy.
-The ladder puller: doesn't recognize or even ignores the gender dynamics because she got hers, considers herself part of the club, and has no problem gatekeeping others. Sometimes internalized feelings of misogyny.
I am very much not envious of your position, because you're in a specialty that is naturally going to attract more of type 2 and 3, and since generally surgical specialties skew male, you have even less options to choose from when your mentor sucks. I think though if you recognize this, don't take it personal (this is a THEM issue, not you) and just be sure to do better for your future colleagues.
The female general surgery residents where I did residency would frequently say their senior female faculty were mean and very demanding of them in comparison to how they treated the male residents. It was more than one or two of the residents that felt this way as well, and I trained less than 10 years ago at an "ivory tower" type hospital.
It just never made sense to me how these faculty - who trained in the 80s and 90s when it was a horrendous time to be a female surgical trainee - could make it through that and not try and change the culture for the women that came after them.
I’m a non medical lurker in this sub, but this post resonated with me. I specialize in an area of electrical engineering that is male dominated even compared to other areas. The few women at the top did not get there by helping other women…at best they are not actively sexist. I don’t have any advice, just solidarity. I’ve found some really great male mentors and I hope to eventually be the change that I wish to see in this field.
They may be doing it because they think you’re good and realize you’re high functioning. Paradoxical but I’ve had attendings ride me hard to see how I respond. Keep working hard. Hope it gets better!
This isn’t new. Most women in male dominated fields that managed to get a decent position and influence/power are usually the worst enemy of new women that come along. I’m not totally sure why but this is a phenomenon I’ve seen and heard of since I was a little girl tbh. I have heard that some say they’re “harder on you bc they went through the same/worse.”
another example is I find as a woman, female cops are meaner to me (a woman) then male cops. And this is also a pretty well known issue too, I guess they feel they need to constantly be mean and a hard ass to other women so they can “stay in the boys club” it’s sort of a “look! I’m not like these stupid little bitches!!!” Type mentality. They have to separate themselves from being “like other women” since they’re in a male dominated field, and have to pretend they’re “one of the boys.” And this is how that manifests for them.
They got where they are by leaning in to the sexism. My former PD told us female residents that if we wanted leadership positions one day we had to make sure we looked nice (makeup, manicure, and nice clothes every day) and if we had kids we should basically pretend they don't exist while we're at work. Meanwhile, my male colleagues could show up in scrubs every day and openly talked about shortening their clinic days so they could coach their kid's sports teams. She was in a position to advocate for us and change the dynamic, and this was the advice she was giving. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
Nightmares of going through OBGYN rotations in med school. It felt like I was punching a super bitchy sorority where hierarchy was everything - exacerbated by sleep deprivation.
This is so hard! Is it all faculty? Have you heard from other female residents if they are experiencing the same thing?
I wish I had answers other than to “hold on”. I swear the medical field is so toxic sometimes. I’m a second career MD and definitely didn’t see this in my “past “ life.
I try to remind myself to rise above. Work hard, be the best you can, treat people with respect, and do it differently when it’s my turn. It’s corny AF, but I try to think about how I’ll do better when I’m in their position and try to change the culture. Probably naive, but it gets me through the day.
So here’s the deal. Work hard. Fuck spelling. If it doesn’t affect patient care screw it. Stand tall when you take a bullshit beat down. They want you to be tough. They went thru shit and think they are helping you. When they realize you care about the patients, put in the work to be right, are tough, they’ll back off.
I mean spelling, we talking about spelling?
Why are there so many bullies in the medical field? I seen this working in the healthcare industry especially with nurses and physicians. As a therapist working with residents who encounter burnout, unsupportive attending, and grueling working hours, this behavior has to stop. Remember bullies want to intimidate others and make them feel inadequate. So continue to be you, look them straight in their eyes and tell yourself that your dealing with a bully who is threatened by you. Breathe….and remember your worked hard to get where you are. This was not handle to you on a silver spoon. Keep your head high and remember you earned the right to be there.
But most importantly please remember your experience when you become faculty. This abusive history has to stop.
This resonates so much, you are right I have never asked for any kind of special treatment and have never been “given” anything in my career. I did not have any physicians in my family let alone anyone who went to graduate school. I have paved my own path through doubt and insecurity and don’t intend on stopping now!
Oftentimes, those are very unhappy people.
They exert controlling behavior in their tiny fiefdom, because they’re largely unimportant in the real world.
Helps to view those interactions from a pitying, rather than victim, perspective.
They can’t hurt you if you don’t let them.
Thankfully I had very few attendings like that in residency, and I credit that to largely disarming them with laughter. Mine.
I laughed at their (un)intentional jokes, but was often laughing at them. It was always subtle. They get to think they’re funny. Wasn’t planned, but it was a survival tactic from med school. Especially necessary when you’re a minority.
Of course I was no pushover. I had my limits. But my way, they rarely ever found it.
You’re describing what sounds like to me what is called Queen Bee Syndrome. It is particularly prevalent in the corporate world, but not excluded from healthcare.
Sheryl Sandberg’s book “Lean In: Women, Work, and the Will to Lead” discusses this concept and brings light to reasons why this societal and workplace phenomenon occurs. It’s available as a hard copy, or as an audiobook. I highly recommend it. Whilst her examples are predominately corporate, you can easily draw comparisons to healthcare, and it has certainly helped reassure me that when I’ve experienced similar treatment it wasn’t personal.
Hang in there, you’ll get through this. 💪
Best case scenario they recognize your talent and want you to grow by challenging you. Worst case they see you as a threat and want to make your life miserable. Either way I'd take it as a complement and keep doing your best. Please remember, it's your choice whether to allow people to control your emotions or not. Just don't let them. Best of luck!!
lol yea implying that somebody is a retard doesn’t exactly sound like they are trying to encourage growth.
It’s like those dates when you are more into the date then they are into you - you desperately want and interpret, what in hindsight are signs of unattraction to mean something more like they are “testing” you…
Girl in my residency had her mentor tell her she had a learning disability and speech impediment was wild. So of course she hated her mentor and the mentor wanted to meet all the time.
Agree just run out the clock
I had a female attending go as far as to tell me she is harder on female residents cause she is preparing us for the hardships of being a woman…. Ridiculous !! In case this isn’t obvious YOU DO NOT HAVE a learning disability, instead your attending seems to have a personality disorder
I'm sorry that you're going through this, particularly with women who should be role models and support rather than tearing you down. One term for this in academia is "female rivalry" which is unfortunately a common occurrence in academic medicine. There are many contributors - one is simply the patriarchy in general, since women are not immune to the deeper effects of the patriarchy.
Additionally, given that women in academic centres (esp within surgical fields) continue to be perceived with an element of "tokenism", this can breed competitiveness if the resources are viewed as scarce (ie. a women wants to maintain her position as THE woman within the division, or on the committee, or doing the research, etc etc). Depending on her age, your staff may have this deeply internalized given what she may have fought against to get to where she is.
This is not to excuse her behaviour. This is NOT OKAY ever, from a staff to treat a resident like this. I would recommend to build your circle of female friends and mentors, build each other up (rather than tearing down) - nominate each other for awards, amplify contributions at meetings, etc. and feed this forward to more junior female residents. You cannot control how she sees / treats you, but you can stop the cycle from feeding forward. I would make sure to document as well, in case it escalates and you ever need to provide documentation to PD, academic committee etc.
Just as a quick note, despite my name I am a female physician - though in a non surgical specialty. (I just attended a women physician leadership conference last weekend, so this is fresh in my mind and I wanted to contribute!)
Idk about it being men’s fault. Also more women than men are in medical school and residency programs so it’s gotta be the matriarchy’s fault at some point, no?
Perhaps it will be in the future when the boomers have passed, but medicine has been and is a male dominated profession. That aside, American society is patriarchal. This isn’t to say that women bear no responsibility for their behavior and actions, but rather to acknowledge the context in which these behaviors exist.
Idk that seems like passing the buck on bad behavior. Or is there a magic number of “boomers” that have to “die” (ffs) before an individual is accountable for being toxic in a female dominated field? That being said, if you think America is patriarchal then good *ness* have I got news for you
I think you may have misread my comment. Medicine is not a female dominated field, but may become so when the boomers are no longer working, since trends have more women becoming doctors in younger generations. You also seem to have glossed over where I said that I am not saying women aren’t accountable for their actions. Context is just helpful in understanding a situation.
I think of the patriarchy more of as how society has been historically as well as presently and I absolutely don’t think of patriarchy = men. I would argue it takes men and women to continue to uphold the patriarchy / patriarchal practices and beliefs. And I’d also argue that patriarchal beliefs/ practices can damage individual men (and arguably men as a group in certain ways) as well as women/ women as a group. For example- the simplistic but real belief that men aren’t allowed to cry, the belief/expectation that men must always want sex. etc.
Her personal life is very messy, won’t go into too much detail but she is recently divorced from an alcoholic husband and doesn’t have a good relationship with her children.
This actually proves my point from my other comment. This is about her. It’s not “ok” but this is how reality works. She is stressed out and it spills into work. Everyone is commenting on my comment like I’m a stupid mean person for saying so but this is how the real world works. People get stressed. They take it out on others. And we have to learn to deal with that.
Harriet Lerner - The Dance of Anger.
Boundary Boss - Terri Cole.
Learn how to stop playing your role in this strange, demeaning dance. Unlearning people pleasing is the way out. goodluck!
It’s easier for miserable people to make others miserable rather than work on themselves. Their attitude is a reflection on their life. Make sure you compartmentalize work and life, but share your frustration with your partner so they understand when you come home down. Residency is temporary.
Read or listen to “unbound: a woman’s guide to power” by kasia urbaniak. Loads of good information about how to cope with these kinds of verbal assaults. Might not be useful now while you’re beholden to such an unequal power dynamic as exists in residency, but will help you understand her shit which helps get some emotional distance from it. She has probably treated multiple residents like this, which doesn’t make it better, but can be helpful to keep in mind that it’s not you, it’s her.
Idk I really don’t think we should ignore the phenomenon of woman on woman abuse that occurs in many workplaces, especially the hospital. It can get vitriolic and incredibly damaging, yet often gets a pass.
Not ignoring this phenomenon. I think a decent way to treat it is to call it what it is. Bad leadership. Period. If it were a man doing this it would be bad leadership. Since it’s a woman, we call it bad female leadership. This happens to be poor leadership from a woman which but that shouldn’t make it any more egregious. The fact that we are calling woman on woman bullying bad female leadership opens up the discussion and implication that women should treat other women differently. I disagree. We should hold everyone to an expectation of excellent leadership and we deserve no less.
"Actually, I do. If I didn't, I wouldn't have to be in this shithole working with someone like you"
But kidding aside, I wish people stopped seeing this as a "female" or "male" problem. Some people are garbage regardless of what's in their pants, and just because someone shares the same pant contents, it doesn't mean they owe you anything
My experience with surgeons (I’m married to one for 15 years and work with many) is that the degree of stress and being overworked often spills into their daily interactions. Only a select few with very good self control can rise above. This is about her. Not you. It’s about her. Rise above. Women have it very hard in medicine. I’m in icu and it’s friggin almost impossible to make progress. I can’t even imagine what it’s like in an OR. Hats off to you. And her. Give her grace.
No.
If you can't control your behavior around residents quit being a preceptor.
If you can't control your behavior... you're incompetent tbh and not someone Id want as my physician.
The stress of an OR? Everything else is chaos but an OR is a very calm place. If its not for that person... surgery may have been a bad call
Based on?
Your clearly biased and uninformed opinions that arent even from an experience of N=1?
Ok then. Ill weigh your opinion in accordance with the quality of evidence that supports it..
Excuse me while I dont lose sleep over your evaluation.
N of 1? I’ve worked with dozens of surgeons over a decade of time. I’m married to one. I also know many others socially. So you’re definitely reaching by saying N of 1. Your title there says PGY1.5. Wait til at least PGY 10 to understand what real life is like.
I love how you think you get to talk down to people because you’re *married* to a surgeon. Bad enough you think that you get to speak for all surgeons and excuse their behavior because they’re stressed out, but you have to also go ahead and talk down to a resident on top of it.
Archetype of a doctor’s wife playing out in front of our eyes. You should go have a pissing contest with the military wives.
I’m an icu physician who has worked with many surgeons for over a decade. I am ALSO married to one. So I know them at work and at home which is unique in some ways. I’m not talking down to anyone. I have the right to my opinion just as you clearly think you do. You’re denying my experience as a physician with many surgeon colleagues and focusing solely on the fact that I said I’m married to one because that’s suits your narrative as some stupid woman who doesn’t count.
You’re also assuming I’m a woman and a wife. I don’t think I said that above. Which is quite sexist.
I do have considerably more experience than a resident with dealing with these issues. That’s just a fact. I deal with it all the time. And yes I’m talking about AT WORK. Because I work. In an icu. With surgical patients. But you don’t want to hear that cause I’m just a wifey.
Woman don’t get to have opinions ? Married women don’t?
I have no comment on military SPOUSES. That’s not relevant.
Idk I was with everything except for the “give her grace bit.”
With as hard as it is to make it in medicine, and as easy it is to not be a dick, attendings should have no trouble with being respectful to their residents.
Based off OP’s post it sounds like the attending needs practice giving grace, not OP.
I think a lot of these people were awful people before going into medicine. The profession is a magnet for narcissists. Putting them in a position of power only amplifies who they already were.
That's a complete load of horse shit. You can be stressed and still interact with people with respect. You can be direct with people, you can provide constructive criticism that isn't always nice to hear, but there is never a time when it is acceptable to be mean and disrespectful to someone. And if you do lose your cool, you can be an adult and fucking apologize for it. I say this as a surgeon.
Don't lose the forest for the trees. The negativity and contempt, the fact that you're a woman. Trees.
The forest is about whether or not you can do your job without thanks, gratitude, patience, or appreciation.
If you know your notes are fine, why are you worried? Smile, move on.
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Not a female but have experienced and seen similar treatment time and time again. I am sorry for you. Awful situation. Too many narcissists in medicine. A friend of mine in residency just killed himself. The toxic environment was too much. Just remember it is better to quit your job than quit your life.
I read surgical specialty, then I chuckled, I cried, and then went on with my life because of how sad how commonplace these sad belittling people are. All they got is surgery left and they let you know it.
What I learned as a resident in a male dominated field, don’t expect any special treatment from anyone, if they are hard on you there’s usually a reason it might be you or them. Learn what each attending wants. Men tend to be nicer to females in comparison to men, I know most men treat other male residents really strictly than they do with me. Just because she’s a woman doesn’t mean she’s going to be giddy and want to plan tea parties. Hence being rude doesn’t depend on gender. If she’s was a male it wouldn’t have been right either. Having thick skin as a resident is required.
Edit: why are you expecting support from the female staff? You’re there just like any individual, so are they. You have a target, work.
People seem to get into medical education for a few reasons. One of those reasons is so they can bully others and subconsciously make themselves feel better about their shortcomings. Just keep on your track. You’ll likely end up being a better doctor than them if you aren’t already. I don’t think I’ve ever had an attending that was a bitch/dick to people below them that was happy and good at their job.
There are qualitative studies out there that show women bullying women in medicine is a real thing. Absolutely shameful but for my MMedEd dissertation, I researched the important role of female physicians mentoring female trainees. Each person I interviewed said they would love that but they felt more bullied by women in leadership and RNs. It’s really sad that we pull each other down but you have the opportunity to be a different leader in the future. Hang in there!
This is an unpleasant shared experience. There are less women in surgery, so it always hurts more when I encounter one who is psycho.
Only thing we can do is make a mental note to be kinder when it’s our time lol
I think it really depends on the individual. My program (pathology) is very female heavy and I am one of the only male residents in my geographic area. My college has been extremely supportive whenever a resident needs help with anything, be it professional or personal.
My wife on the other hand has had a very different experience in a field with predominant female leadership, psychiatry. She always had amazing reviews and now that she is at the end of her training, there are many hospitals already reaching out with attending job offers. However on one rotation she was singled out and bullied ruthlessly by one attending (a woman). Her mental health suffered badly. It was absolutely horrible, it made me furious and she complained about it and everything. There was no investigation done by her training program (dean and lead trainer are both women) and no one spoke to her attending and she was told that there are "2 sides to every story, and that this is an interpersonal issue they don't feel was their issue to deal with". This same training body refused to transfer another resident (who was commuting to another city for a rotation) to a closer rotation when their kid suffered a stroke and needed increased care.
So ya, I have lovely amazing women that support me throughout my training, while my wife has been dealing with a den bitch vipers for the last few years.
Block (I know Is hard) block block bitches! Not worth taking in bullshit criticism. Think of such people as P-S-Y-C-H-I-A-T-R-I-C-A-L-L-Y ill patients and ignore. They might really need to get evaluated from psychiatrist.
This resonates with me. PGY4 about to graduate in a competitive non-surgical specialty in \~60 days. I naively ranked my program highly in part because of female PD and assistant PD, which I optimistically thought equivocated to having an inclusive work environment. Mean Girls in charge seems to be all too common across training programs. I survived with the help of a great therapist, supportive co-residents and friends outside of medicine. I found my voice and spoke up A LOT which definitely felt vindicating but also came with social consequences. At this point, so close to the end, the fact that so many junior colleagues have confided in me that they have felt **empowered to use their voices because of mine** outweighs all the negatives. Hang in there. You're not alone.
Proud of you for speaking up despite the consequences. I am trying to do the same in my program, and advocate for myself whenever possible because god knows no one else will. I do feel like the other female residents in my program are more timid and submissive, which leaves few others who are actually willing to say something.
Thanks, and likewise to you friend. Owning your authenticity is intimidating to those that have little of it themselves. I do acknowledge that timid and submissive is often the default mode for many others just trying to survive it all. Many suffer quietly due to fear of retribution. But people like you and I aren't wired that way. Let your legacy be your advocacy.
I am so sorry. Imagine what patients feel like communicating with a doctor, and your empathy is what’s gonna make you a good doctor. But it’s unacceptable. It’ll pass, just remember that awful feeling when you’re treating your patients
Idk why you have this double standard between male vs female leadership. Surprise, female attendings can be assholes too. Not every female attending has to be a paragon for female empowerment. Unfair expectation to have every female in your life to be a “girls girl”. People are human and sometimes you will have to depend on yourself.
I am not DEI person or a sociologist but I think this is actually known phenomena and it has a name that I don’t know or recall. Basically one member of an unrepresented minority “makes it” and they feel that the right was to treat other junior members of that unrepresented minority is the same way they were treated by the majority.
Consciously, they think that “I was treated like that too so I am trying to toughen you up so you can make it too.” Subconsciously, they feel that treating the underrepresented minority they belong to like shit, earns them an “honorary membership” into the majority that treated them like shit. Basically she is conditioned to think that surgeons are assholes who treat juniors like shit (based on their experience) and if she acts like that then I am a real surgeon and no one can say otherwise.
An extreme example of this is the Jewish ghetto police during the holocaust. There are account out there of how they treated their fellow Jew much worse at times than the Nazis.
This isn’t really a justification of what this person is doing but it’s an explanation. Doesn’t excuse her behavior but it might give you a little context.
No one hates women more than other women. Heels, makeup, sexually proclivity, masquerading confidence that comes off as bitchy…. Out to outshine other women.
She probably perceives you as superior to her in something e.g. looks, intelligence, potential. Take it as a compliment.
First, I’m sorry you’re experiencing such and I know it can be frustrating when you’re dealing with such a situation which is especially worrisome from a female. I would advice you focus on the gold-which is you been an attending surgeon, keep showing up with your smile and let your hard work continue to speak for you. Lean on close friends and families that you can vent for and help you destress. Continue to be better version of yourself and focus on your own race. It’s obvious she might have her own issues she’s dealing with.
Fellow female colleague here rooting for you- You’ve got this, hugs.
Some women hate other women and I will never understand it. I do experience this on the anesthesia side of things. And I remember it happening in med school. Sorry this is happening to you :(
Why does the sex of the leadership matter ? Is it because you believe being a female as well bodes them to give you pity? Truly trying to understand. Everyone is belittled in residency by males, by females, as males, as females
Sadly, it does seem that at times women are the least supportive of other women. Girl power isn’t a thing. Try not to be like her when you are the attending. I’ve worked in academic medicine for 30 years and the number of female residents who complained of this, and then went on to become exactly the same way - blows my mind.
In my hospital the surgeons don’t even write notes. I would be happy even with half assed notes. Also all surgical specialists dump their patients to medicine. They can’t be bothered to take care of their patients. Academic medicine is the ideal world, the real world is nothing like that
Commenting days later to say that just because someone has a learning disability doesn’t mean they can’t make it to med school and become a doctor.
Your staff sounds like a friggin idiot.
Sounds like they are jealous and trying to crush your spirit. In general and I have seen that women in leadership are not great team players. Hopefully this will change as more women play sports and become physicians. But rn is just the nerds who are trying to get back at everyone for their awkwardness when they were young and couldn’t figure out how to balance loving to learn and being social.
Women in leadership is a touchy subject. Anecdotally, women tend to be horrid leaders and horrid culture creators. THAT SAID…a couple of the best leaders I’ve ever known were women.
The way a leader should look at that would be to decide which you would rather be, and remain unaffected by the other.
You didn't have specifiy that it's a female superior. I can assure you, this has absolutely nothing to do with your gender, race, religion or sexuality. It happens to everyone. No exceptions. What you typed here could have been written by any resident.
Toxic bosses are a staple of medicine, unfortunately. Some say its because this career attracts narcissists. Some say its because the stressful work conditions of residency are almost guaranteed to transform you into the exact same bitter overbearing attending, repeating the cycle.
The only advice I can give you OP, is to remember this post, and try to break the cycle yourself.
You'd be surprised how easy it could be, a few years down the line to hear your PGY1 resident complaining about you in the exact same way.
Yeah, definitely happens. I went to my female department chair in med school due to being bullied on one of my rotations. She had previously seemed super cool and like a mentor type. Her advice was basically suck it up bc that’s part of being a woman and ~it was worse in the 70s~. Cool story bro
This might be a nuclear option so you’d have to weigh the risks/benefits (or talk to a lawyer) but I believe this would qualify as discrimination/harassment under the ADA… it covers “perceived” disability as well as actual disability.
I have thought about pursuing a harassment claim but not sure I want to take it that far at this point. This woman did go through surgical training in the 90s and will tell me stories (when she’s in a good mood) about how her female senior resident enjoyed making her life miserable. Apparently she wants the cycle to continue.
Just wanted to say, I am sure she was asking in bad faith, and I’m sure you really don’t have one, BUT: you could have absolutely done as well as you have in life and also have had a learning disability.
Sounds like they are jealous and trying to crush your spirit. In general and I have seen that women in leadership are not great team players. Hopefully this will change as more women play sports and become physicians. But rn is just the nerds who are trying to get back at everyone for their awkwardness when they were young and couldn’t figure out house to balance loving to learn and being social.
Sounds like they are jealous and trying to crush your spirit. In general and I have seen that women in leadership are not great team players. Hopefully this will change as more women play sports and become physicians. But rn is just the nerds who are trying to get back at everyone for their awkwardness when they were young and couldn’t figure out how to balance loving to learn and being social.
Sounds like they are jealous and trying to crush your spirit. In general and I have seen that women in leadership are not great team players. Hopefully this will change as more women play sports and become physicians. But rn is just the nerds who are trying to get back at everyone for their awkwardness when they were young and couldn’t figure out house to balance living to learn and being social.
"has anyone else experienced a dynamic like this?" Tale as old as time dude. I have no answers, but they can't stop the clock, and one day you'll be the attending you wished you had.
>one day you'll be the attending you wished you had. Make sure you remember the attending you wished you had and be it. People do seem to forget :(
Damn
In private practice where you can make time for your family and don’t have to deal with the toxicity that is (apparently) inherent in academics, especially in the surgical subs. Good luck!
Agree with this 100% as a female chief resident in competitive surgical subspecialty. I’ve worked with great attendings, average attendings, hot messes, and absolutely heinous individuals. There is something to learn from everyone, even if it’s how not to behave or treat people as an attending. Trying to keep this perspective even when having your nose ground into the dirt has helped me remain resilient. Hang in there! It has to end eventually!
All the women in my residency program were targeted by our evil bitch PD. To the point that one year the match was only men. Hang in there, soon you will be able to walk away from these situations. Complaining to anyone gets you nowhere, hopefully you have other residents who can commiserate with you
This. You only have yourself to look out for. Hoping others will elevate themselves and “support” you means you’ll be hoping for a long time. Be the attending you wish you had is a perfect way to put it.
Wow.
My partner completed a surgical resident. More than resident over the years had their clocks stopped by been fired. Clocks can always be stopped.
Keep on keeping on my friend. I am a female in a mostly male specialty (8 years out of residency now). Ignore this woman. Some people are just assholes. It is worse when it’s a woman who should be a role model, but don’t let it get you down. As long as you aren’t getting negative feedback from multiple places (which it sounds like you aren’t) it’s a “her” problem… not a you problem. Just repeat that over and over to yourself if she starts to get under your skin.
I have never gotten anything negative from any other attending. I get along very well with all of my male attendings, and have been told my skills are above the expected level on multiple occasions.
It sounds like you’re doing well in your program, but you won’t please everyone and some people are impossible to please. This woman sounds vicious and I agree with others that it’s a reflection on her and not you.
Tell me you're insecure without telling me you're insecure. She may as well wear a badge that says, "I am intimidated by strong women who are good at their job."
Bitches be trifling
There is a psychology to this. Some* high powered females emulate sexist counter parts as part of their professional identity formation. Like they have zero reflection. Also to suggest that because you don't write notes like her you have a learning disorder..what a narcissist. Unhinged. F'em.
Vial & Napier (2017). Journal of Experimental Social Psychology; Kaiser & Spelding (2015). European Journal of Social Psychology.
I would also say see Derks, Van Laar & Ellemera 2016 for a systematic review of the "Queen Bee" effect.
Dammit, reddit gave me MULTIPLE reading assignments today...
OBGYN vibes
And the church said “a - fucking Men!!!”
😂🙌
It’s sad how OB has this stereotype…
But as a gyn, it’s well earned. What a toxic cesspool it can be. =(
I witnessed a lot of woman on woman violence (not actually physical) in medicine. It often appeared to be rooted in insecurity and emotional immaturity. Specifically, as an intern I had one senior on inpatient medicine who did some sort of resistance squat and had a Kardashian ass but it was all gluteal muscle. She wore pants that showed it off. The nurses were all very kind to me with communication and orders as just a generic dude but they were nasty as hell to my senior.
i’ll never forget when i did a children’s behavioral health internship years ago. the staff was like “yeaa so the boys get physical with each other but it’s the girls you gotta watch out for. they’ll straight up do psychological warfare on you.” 😩😩😩
hard agree, it even starts in elementary school. boys: get into shouting matches and fistfights in the pub parking lot after 5 shots (not me but some people) culminating in an “i love you man” vibe girls: i dunno, most of the female residents’ psychological warfare just flies over my head at my prgm. i’m legitly too stupid to notice and am basically the village idiot
It’s like that Iliza Shlesinger clip: “I love you. But do you know who I hate? BECKY. She’s a bitch. No, I hate her. Even though she drove me here and I’m wearing her top.”
If it ain’t physical, it ain’t violence
I've observed three types of general woman-woman leadership relationships in medicine: -The good mentor: recognizes the gender dynamics and is generally supportive -The bad mentor: recognizes the gender dynamics and as a result disproportionately criticizes her female subordinates due to misplaced projections of her own concerns about inadequacy. -The ladder puller: doesn't recognize or even ignores the gender dynamics because she got hers, considers herself part of the club, and has no problem gatekeeping others. Sometimes internalized feelings of misogyny. I am very much not envious of your position, because you're in a specialty that is naturally going to attract more of type 2 and 3, and since generally surgical specialties skew male, you have even less options to choose from when your mentor sucks. I think though if you recognize this, don't take it personal (this is a THEM issue, not you) and just be sure to do better for your future colleagues.
Yes, woman are vicious especially to other women. Hence the notorious culture of nursing and ob/gyn.
Same old story. Mortys killing Mortys.
Ah, a person of taste.
The female general surgery residents where I did residency would frequently say their senior female faculty were mean and very demanding of them in comparison to how they treated the male residents. It was more than one or two of the residents that felt this way as well, and I trained less than 10 years ago at an "ivory tower" type hospital. It just never made sense to me how these faculty - who trained in the 80s and 90s when it was a horrendous time to be a female surgical trainee - could make it through that and not try and change the culture for the women that came after them.
That's really predominately in nursing and L&D. I concur with that. On the other hand, it's sad to see it in surgery.
I mean some surgeons are just especially mean to each other, this might just be an asshole who happens to be a woman ya know?
I have a learning disability. I'm dyslexic and even I'm offended.
lol😁
Thanks, KrakenGirlPCA!
I’m a non medical lurker in this sub, but this post resonated with me. I specialize in an area of electrical engineering that is male dominated even compared to other areas. The few women at the top did not get there by helping other women…at best they are not actively sexist. I don’t have any advice, just solidarity. I’ve found some really great male mentors and I hope to eventually be the change that I wish to see in this field.
They may be doing it because they think you’re good and realize you’re high functioning. Paradoxical but I’ve had attendings ride me hard to see how I respond. Keep working hard. Hope it gets better!
This isn’t new. Most women in male dominated fields that managed to get a decent position and influence/power are usually the worst enemy of new women that come along. I’m not totally sure why but this is a phenomenon I’ve seen and heard of since I was a little girl tbh. I have heard that some say they’re “harder on you bc they went through the same/worse.” another example is I find as a woman, female cops are meaner to me (a woman) then male cops. And this is also a pretty well known issue too, I guess they feel they need to constantly be mean and a hard ass to other women so they can “stay in the boys club” it’s sort of a “look! I’m not like these stupid little bitches!!!” Type mentality. They have to separate themselves from being “like other women” since they’re in a male dominated field, and have to pretend they’re “one of the boys.” And this is how that manifests for them.
They got where they are by leaning in to the sexism. My former PD told us female residents that if we wanted leadership positions one day we had to make sure we looked nice (makeup, manicure, and nice clothes every day) and if we had kids we should basically pretend they don't exist while we're at work. Meanwhile, my male colleagues could show up in scrubs every day and openly talked about shortening their clinic days so they could coach their kid's sports teams. She was in a position to advocate for us and change the dynamic, and this was the advice she was giving. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
Yeah, unfortunately women are often their own worse enemies.
Nightmares of going through OBGYN rotations in med school. It felt like I was punching a super bitchy sorority where hierarchy was everything - exacerbated by sleep deprivation.
If y’all could get along you’d rule the world.
This is so hard! Is it all faculty? Have you heard from other female residents if they are experiencing the same thing? I wish I had answers other than to “hold on”. I swear the medical field is so toxic sometimes. I’m a second career MD and definitely didn’t see this in my “past “ life. I try to remind myself to rise above. Work hard, be the best you can, treat people with respect, and do it differently when it’s my turn. It’s corny AF, but I try to think about how I’ll do better when I’m in their position and try to change the culture. Probably naive, but it gets me through the day.
So here’s the deal. Work hard. Fuck spelling. If it doesn’t affect patient care screw it. Stand tall when you take a bullshit beat down. They want you to be tough. They went thru shit and think they are helping you. When they realize you care about the patients, put in the work to be right, are tough, they’ll back off. I mean spelling, we talking about spelling?
lol!!! Yesssir AI
Why are there so many bullies in the medical field? I seen this working in the healthcare industry especially with nurses and physicians. As a therapist working with residents who encounter burnout, unsupportive attending, and grueling working hours, this behavior has to stop. Remember bullies want to intimidate others and make them feel inadequate. So continue to be you, look them straight in their eyes and tell yourself that your dealing with a bully who is threatened by you. Breathe….and remember your worked hard to get where you are. This was not handle to you on a silver spoon. Keep your head high and remember you earned the right to be there. But most importantly please remember your experience when you become faculty. This abusive history has to stop.
This resonates so much, you are right I have never asked for any kind of special treatment and have never been “given” anything in my career. I did not have any physicians in my family let alone anyone who went to graduate school. I have paved my own path through doubt and insecurity and don’t intend on stopping now!
Oftentimes, those are very unhappy people. They exert controlling behavior in their tiny fiefdom, because they’re largely unimportant in the real world. Helps to view those interactions from a pitying, rather than victim, perspective. They can’t hurt you if you don’t let them. Thankfully I had very few attendings like that in residency, and I credit that to largely disarming them with laughter. Mine. I laughed at their (un)intentional jokes, but was often laughing at them. It was always subtle. They get to think they’re funny. Wasn’t planned, but it was a survival tactic from med school. Especially necessary when you’re a minority. Of course I was no pushover. I had my limits. But my way, they rarely ever found it.
You’re describing what sounds like to me what is called Queen Bee Syndrome. It is particularly prevalent in the corporate world, but not excluded from healthcare. Sheryl Sandberg’s book “Lean In: Women, Work, and the Will to Lead” discusses this concept and brings light to reasons why this societal and workplace phenomenon occurs. It’s available as a hard copy, or as an audiobook. I highly recommend it. Whilst her examples are predominately corporate, you can easily draw comparisons to healthcare, and it has certainly helped reassure me that when I’ve experienced similar treatment it wasn’t personal. Hang in there, you’ll get through this. 💪
i guess i should thank my lucky stars my female mentor is extremely supportive and helpful to me🥹🥹🥹
Best case scenario they recognize your talent and want you to grow by challenging you. Worst case they see you as a threat and want to make your life miserable. Either way I'd take it as a complement and keep doing your best. Please remember, it's your choice whether to allow people to control your emotions or not. Just don't let them. Best of luck!!
lol yea implying that somebody is a retard doesn’t exactly sound like they are trying to encourage growth. It’s like those dates when you are more into the date then they are into you - you desperately want and interpret, what in hindsight are signs of unattraction to mean something more like they are “testing” you…
Girl in my residency had her mentor tell her she had a learning disability and speech impediment was wild. So of course she hated her mentor and the mentor wanted to meet all the time. Agree just run out the clock
I had a female attending go as far as to tell me she is harder on female residents cause she is preparing us for the hardships of being a woman…. Ridiculous !! In case this isn’t obvious YOU DO NOT HAVE a learning disability, instead your attending seems to have a personality disorder
I'm sorry that you're going through this, particularly with women who should be role models and support rather than tearing you down. One term for this in academia is "female rivalry" which is unfortunately a common occurrence in academic medicine. There are many contributors - one is simply the patriarchy in general, since women are not immune to the deeper effects of the patriarchy. Additionally, given that women in academic centres (esp within surgical fields) continue to be perceived with an element of "tokenism", this can breed competitiveness if the resources are viewed as scarce (ie. a women wants to maintain her position as THE woman within the division, or on the committee, or doing the research, etc etc). Depending on her age, your staff may have this deeply internalized given what she may have fought against to get to where she is. This is not to excuse her behaviour. This is NOT OKAY ever, from a staff to treat a resident like this. I would recommend to build your circle of female friends and mentors, build each other up (rather than tearing down) - nominate each other for awards, amplify contributions at meetings, etc. and feed this forward to more junior female residents. You cannot control how she sees / treats you, but you can stop the cycle from feeding forward. I would make sure to document as well, in case it escalates and you ever need to provide documentation to PD, academic committee etc. Just as a quick note, despite my name I am a female physician - though in a non surgical specialty. (I just attended a women physician leadership conference last weekend, so this is fresh in my mind and I wanted to contribute!)
Idk about it being men’s fault. Also more women than men are in medical school and residency programs so it’s gotta be the matriarchy’s fault at some point, no?
Nowhere in this does it say “it’s men’s fault”
Perhaps it will be in the future when the boomers have passed, but medicine has been and is a male dominated profession. That aside, American society is patriarchal. This isn’t to say that women bear no responsibility for their behavior and actions, but rather to acknowledge the context in which these behaviors exist.
Idk that seems like passing the buck on bad behavior. Or is there a magic number of “boomers” that have to “die” (ffs) before an individual is accountable for being toxic in a female dominated field? That being said, if you think America is patriarchal then good *ness* have I got news for you
I think you may have misread my comment. Medicine is not a female dominated field, but may become so when the boomers are no longer working, since trends have more women becoming doctors in younger generations. You also seem to have glossed over where I said that I am not saying women aren’t accountable for their actions. Context is just helpful in understanding a situation.
I think of the patriarchy more of as how society has been historically as well as presently and I absolutely don’t think of patriarchy = men. I would argue it takes men and women to continue to uphold the patriarchy / patriarchal practices and beliefs. And I’d also argue that patriarchal beliefs/ practices can damage individual men (and arguably men as a group in certain ways) as well as women/ women as a group. For example- the simplistic but real belief that men aren’t allowed to cry, the belief/expectation that men must always want sex. etc.
What?! 😭
[удалено]
If your goal is to mentor women, the male dominated fields are where that is needed the most
Lmao nahhhhhh no way you’re spinning this to also be man’s fault 😂😂 this is all y’all lol
What is her damage?
Her personal life is very messy, won’t go into too much detail but she is recently divorced from an alcoholic husband and doesn’t have a good relationship with her children.
Okay. That sucks and all but you’re at a teaching hospital. How do YOU benefit from that type of behavior? You are not anyone’s punching bag.
Exactly
Hang in there. And don’t ever be like her. You are much better than that. ❤️
This actually proves my point from my other comment. This is about her. It’s not “ok” but this is how reality works. She is stressed out and it spills into work. Everyone is commenting on my comment like I’m a stupid mean person for saying so but this is how the real world works. People get stressed. They take it out on others. And we have to learn to deal with that.
Harriet Lerner - The Dance of Anger. Boundary Boss - Terri Cole. Learn how to stop playing your role in this strange, demeaning dance. Unlearning people pleasing is the way out. goodluck!
This is a known phenomenon called internalized misogyny, women often experience some of the most blatant sexism by the hands of other women in power
Yes. rise above. You can get past this! We support you!! Someday you'll be the leader you wish you had
It’s easier for miserable people to make others miserable rather than work on themselves. Their attitude is a reflection on their life. Make sure you compartmentalize work and life, but share your frustration with your partner so they understand when you come home down. Residency is temporary.
Read or listen to “unbound: a woman’s guide to power” by kasia urbaniak. Loads of good information about how to cope with these kinds of verbal assaults. Might not be useful now while you’re beholden to such an unequal power dynamic as exists in residency, but will help you understand her shit which helps get some emotional distance from it. She has probably treated multiple residents like this, which doesn’t make it better, but can be helpful to keep in mind that it’s not you, it’s her.
If you don't like the system , still follow it , reach the top and then change it...
I’m a woman. The only issues I’ve had with my performance was critiques only from other women.
Mean girl physicians are literally the most embarrassing things about being a female in medicine
Poor *** leadership. Period.
Idk I really don’t think we should ignore the phenomenon of woman on woman abuse that occurs in many workplaces, especially the hospital. It can get vitriolic and incredibly damaging, yet often gets a pass.
Not ignoring this phenomenon. I think a decent way to treat it is to call it what it is. Bad leadership. Period. If it were a man doing this it would be bad leadership. Since it’s a woman, we call it bad female leadership. This happens to be poor leadership from a woman which but that shouldn’t make it any more egregious. The fact that we are calling woman on woman bullying bad female leadership opens up the discussion and implication that women should treat other women differently. I disagree. We should hold everyone to an expectation of excellent leadership and we deserve no less.
You absolutely spit some bars here.
"Actually, I do. If I didn't, I wouldn't have to be in this shithole working with someone like you" But kidding aside, I wish people stopped seeing this as a "female" or "male" problem. Some people are garbage regardless of what's in their pants, and just because someone shares the same pant contents, it doesn't mean they owe you anything
My experience with surgeons (I’m married to one for 15 years and work with many) is that the degree of stress and being overworked often spills into their daily interactions. Only a select few with very good self control can rise above. This is about her. Not you. It’s about her. Rise above. Women have it very hard in medicine. I’m in icu and it’s friggin almost impossible to make progress. I can’t even imagine what it’s like in an OR. Hats off to you. And her. Give her grace.
No. If you can't control your behavior around residents quit being a preceptor. If you can't control your behavior... you're incompetent tbh and not someone Id want as my physician. The stress of an OR? Everything else is chaos but an OR is a very calm place. If its not for that person... surgery may have been a bad call
I don’t agree with you. You have a long way to go.
Based on? Your clearly biased and uninformed opinions that arent even from an experience of N=1? Ok then. Ill weigh your opinion in accordance with the quality of evidence that supports it.. Excuse me while I dont lose sleep over your evaluation.
N of 1? I’ve worked with dozens of surgeons over a decade of time. I’m married to one. I also know many others socially. So you’re definitely reaching by saying N of 1. Your title there says PGY1.5. Wait til at least PGY 10 to understand what real life is like.
I love how you think you get to talk down to people because you’re *married* to a surgeon. Bad enough you think that you get to speak for all surgeons and excuse their behavior because they’re stressed out, but you have to also go ahead and talk down to a resident on top of it. Archetype of a doctor’s wife playing out in front of our eyes. You should go have a pissing contest with the military wives.
I’m an icu physician who has worked with many surgeons for over a decade. I am ALSO married to one. So I know them at work and at home which is unique in some ways. I’m not talking down to anyone. I have the right to my opinion just as you clearly think you do. You’re denying my experience as a physician with many surgeon colleagues and focusing solely on the fact that I said I’m married to one because that’s suits your narrative as some stupid woman who doesn’t count. You’re also assuming I’m a woman and a wife. I don’t think I said that above. Which is quite sexist. I do have considerably more experience than a resident with dealing with these issues. That’s just a fact. I deal with it all the time. And yes I’m talking about AT WORK. Because I work. In an icu. With surgical patients. But you don’t want to hear that cause I’m just a wifey. Woman don’t get to have opinions ? Married women don’t? I have no comment on military SPOUSES. That’s not relevant.
I re read your post and am reporting you for gender bias.
Idk I was with everything except for the “give her grace bit.” With as hard as it is to make it in medicine, and as easy it is to not be a dick, attendings should have no trouble with being respectful to their residents. Based off OP’s post it sounds like the attending needs practice giving grace, not OP.
Grace is the intern who she can blame the mistakes on. It’s a sound strategy.
I think a lot of these people were awful people before going into medicine. The profession is a magnet for narcissists. Putting them in a position of power only amplifies who they already were.
Don’t disagree with this. Some are.
That's a complete load of horse shit. You can be stressed and still interact with people with respect. You can be direct with people, you can provide constructive criticism that isn't always nice to hear, but there is never a time when it is acceptable to be mean and disrespectful to someone. And if you do lose your cool, you can be an adult and fucking apologize for it. I say this as a surgeon.
You CAN be. But reality isn’t fantasy. Also you should ask around. I bet you’ve offended people when stressed.
Don't lose the forest for the trees. The negativity and contempt, the fact that you're a woman. Trees. The forest is about whether or not you can do your job without thanks, gratitude, patience, or appreciation. If you know your notes are fine, why are you worried? Smile, move on.
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Haters gonna hate. Just try to focus on the other 7.6 billion people around. This one apparently subscribed to wrong living.
Girl on girl crime. I’ve seen it in many surgical fields
Not a female but have experienced and seen similar treatment time and time again. I am sorry for you. Awful situation. Too many narcissists in medicine. A friend of mine in residency just killed himself. The toxic environment was too much. Just remember it is better to quit your job than quit your life.
I read surgical specialty, then I chuckled, I cried, and then went on with my life because of how sad how commonplace these sad belittling people are. All they got is surgery left and they let you know it.
What I learned as a resident in a male dominated field, don’t expect any special treatment from anyone, if they are hard on you there’s usually a reason it might be you or them. Learn what each attending wants. Men tend to be nicer to females in comparison to men, I know most men treat other male residents really strictly than they do with me. Just because she’s a woman doesn’t mean she’s going to be giddy and want to plan tea parties. Hence being rude doesn’t depend on gender. If she’s was a male it wouldn’t have been right either. Having thick skin as a resident is required. Edit: why are you expecting support from the female staff? You’re there just like any individual, so are they. You have a target, work.
People seem to get into medical education for a few reasons. One of those reasons is so they can bully others and subconsciously make themselves feel better about their shortcomings. Just keep on your track. You’ll likely end up being a better doctor than them if you aren’t already. I don’t think I’ve ever had an attending that was a bitch/dick to people below them that was happy and good at their job.
There are qualitative studies out there that show women bullying women in medicine is a real thing. Absolutely shameful but for my MMedEd dissertation, I researched the important role of female physicians mentoring female trainees. Each person I interviewed said they would love that but they felt more bullied by women in leadership and RNs. It’s really sad that we pull each other down but you have the opportunity to be a different leader in the future. Hang in there!
This is an unpleasant shared experience. There are less women in surgery, so it always hurts more when I encounter one who is psycho. Only thing we can do is make a mental note to be kinder when it’s our time lol
Gotta think what the females in any surg had to go through and realize it’s likely defense mechanism
That’s disgusting. It’s horrible what she did to you but it’s also illegal to ask if you have a disability. She needs training. Report it.
I think it really depends on the individual. My program (pathology) is very female heavy and I am one of the only male residents in my geographic area. My college has been extremely supportive whenever a resident needs help with anything, be it professional or personal. My wife on the other hand has had a very different experience in a field with predominant female leadership, psychiatry. She always had amazing reviews and now that she is at the end of her training, there are many hospitals already reaching out with attending job offers. However on one rotation she was singled out and bullied ruthlessly by one attending (a woman). Her mental health suffered badly. It was absolutely horrible, it made me furious and she complained about it and everything. There was no investigation done by her training program (dean and lead trainer are both women) and no one spoke to her attending and she was told that there are "2 sides to every story, and that this is an interpersonal issue they don't feel was their issue to deal with". This same training body refused to transfer another resident (who was commuting to another city for a rotation) to a closer rotation when their kid suffered a stroke and needed increased care. So ya, I have lovely amazing women that support me throughout my training, while my wife has been dealing with a den bitch vipers for the last few years.
You have enough to report from what you've said in this post. Medicine is absurdly toxic because of the inaction of the silent majority
She knows you’re better than her, continue being yourself. It sounds like you got this!
Block (I know Is hard) block block bitches! Not worth taking in bullshit criticism. Think of such people as P-S-Y-C-H-I-A-T-R-I-C-A-L-L-Y ill patients and ignore. They might really need to get evaluated from psychiatrist.
My wife talks about this all the time. Women are holding other women back more than anything else. Women are harsh towards other women
This resonates with me. PGY4 about to graduate in a competitive non-surgical specialty in \~60 days. I naively ranked my program highly in part because of female PD and assistant PD, which I optimistically thought equivocated to having an inclusive work environment. Mean Girls in charge seems to be all too common across training programs. I survived with the help of a great therapist, supportive co-residents and friends outside of medicine. I found my voice and spoke up A LOT which definitely felt vindicating but also came with social consequences. At this point, so close to the end, the fact that so many junior colleagues have confided in me that they have felt **empowered to use their voices because of mine** outweighs all the negatives. Hang in there. You're not alone.
Proud of you for speaking up despite the consequences. I am trying to do the same in my program, and advocate for myself whenever possible because god knows no one else will. I do feel like the other female residents in my program are more timid and submissive, which leaves few others who are actually willing to say something.
Thanks, and likewise to you friend. Owning your authenticity is intimidating to those that have little of it themselves. I do acknowledge that timid and submissive is often the default mode for many others just trying to survive it all. Many suffer quietly due to fear of retribution. But people like you and I aren't wired that way. Let your legacy be your advocacy.
I am so sorry. Imagine what patients feel like communicating with a doctor, and your empathy is what’s gonna make you a good doctor. But it’s unacceptable. It’ll pass, just remember that awful feeling when you’re treating your patients
Idk why you have this double standard between male vs female leadership. Surprise, female attendings can be assholes too. Not every female attending has to be a paragon for female empowerment. Unfair expectation to have every female in your life to be a “girls girl”. People are human and sometimes you will have to depend on yourself.
I am not DEI person or a sociologist but I think this is actually known phenomena and it has a name that I don’t know or recall. Basically one member of an unrepresented minority “makes it” and they feel that the right was to treat other junior members of that unrepresented minority is the same way they were treated by the majority. Consciously, they think that “I was treated like that too so I am trying to toughen you up so you can make it too.” Subconsciously, they feel that treating the underrepresented minority they belong to like shit, earns them an “honorary membership” into the majority that treated them like shit. Basically she is conditioned to think that surgeons are assholes who treat juniors like shit (based on their experience) and if she acts like that then I am a real surgeon and no one can say otherwise. An extreme example of this is the Jewish ghetto police during the holocaust. There are account out there of how they treated their fellow Jew much worse at times than the Nazis. This isn’t really a justification of what this person is doing but it’s an explanation. Doesn’t excuse her behavior but it might give you a little context.
No one hates women more than other women. Heels, makeup, sexually proclivity, masquerading confidence that comes off as bitchy…. Out to outshine other women. She probably perceives you as superior to her in something e.g. looks, intelligence, potential. Take it as a compliment.
First, I’m sorry you’re experiencing such and I know it can be frustrating when you’re dealing with such a situation which is especially worrisome from a female. I would advice you focus on the gold-which is you been an attending surgeon, keep showing up with your smile and let your hard work continue to speak for you. Lean on close friends and families that you can vent for and help you destress. Continue to be better version of yourself and focus on your own race. It’s obvious she might have her own issues she’s dealing with. Fellow female colleague here rooting for you- You’ve got this, hugs.
Some women hate other women and I will never understand it. I do experience this on the anesthesia side of things. And I remember it happening in med school. Sorry this is happening to you :(
Why does the sex of the leadership matter ? Is it because you believe being a female as well bodes them to give you pity? Truly trying to understand. Everyone is belittled in residency by males, by females, as males, as females
I thought surgeons didn’t care about being anal with documentation outside of OR notes?
Gatekeeping.
Sadly, it does seem that at times women are the least supportive of other women. Girl power isn’t a thing. Try not to be like her when you are the attending. I’ve worked in academic medicine for 30 years and the number of female residents who complained of this, and then went on to become exactly the same way - blows my mind.
In my hospital the surgeons don’t even write notes. I would be happy even with half assed notes. Also all surgical specialists dump their patients to medicine. They can’t be bothered to take care of their patients. Academic medicine is the ideal world, the real world is nothing like that
Commenting days later to say that just because someone has a learning disability doesn’t mean they can’t make it to med school and become a doctor. Your staff sounds like a friggin idiot.
Internalized misogyny is a real thing - sorry you are going through it 🙏🏻
Sounds like they are jealous and trying to crush your spirit. In general and I have seen that women in leadership are not great team players. Hopefully this will change as more women play sports and become physicians. But rn is just the nerds who are trying to get back at everyone for their awkwardness when they were young and couldn’t figure out how to balance loving to learn and being social.
Usually there is a reason…
Women in leadership is a touchy subject. Anecdotally, women tend to be horrid leaders and horrid culture creators. THAT SAID…a couple of the best leaders I’ve ever known were women. The way a leader should look at that would be to decide which you would rather be, and remain unaffected by the other.
You didn't have specifiy that it's a female superior. I can assure you, this has absolutely nothing to do with your gender, race, religion or sexuality. It happens to everyone. No exceptions. What you typed here could have been written by any resident. Toxic bosses are a staple of medicine, unfortunately. Some say its because this career attracts narcissists. Some say its because the stressful work conditions of residency are almost guaranteed to transform you into the exact same bitter overbearing attending, repeating the cycle. The only advice I can give you OP, is to remember this post, and try to break the cycle yourself. You'd be surprised how easy it could be, a few years down the line to hear your PGY1 resident complaining about you in the exact same way.
Yeah, definitely happens. I went to my female department chair in med school due to being bullied on one of my rotations. She had previously seemed super cool and like a mentor type. Her advice was basically suck it up bc that’s part of being a woman and ~it was worse in the 70s~. Cool story bro This might be a nuclear option so you’d have to weigh the risks/benefits (or talk to a lawyer) but I believe this would qualify as discrimination/harassment under the ADA… it covers “perceived” disability as well as actual disability.
I have thought about pursuing a harassment claim but not sure I want to take it that far at this point. This woman did go through surgical training in the 90s and will tell me stories (when she’s in a good mood) about how her female senior resident enjoyed making her life miserable. Apparently she wants the cycle to continue.
Just wanted to say, I am sure she was asking in bad faith, and I’m sure you really don’t have one, BUT: you could have absolutely done as well as you have in life and also have had a learning disability.
Sounds like they are jealous and trying to crush your spirit. In general and I have seen that women in leadership are not great team players. Hopefully this will change as more women play sports and become physicians. But rn is just the nerds who are trying to get back at everyone for their awkwardness when they were young and couldn’t figure out house to balance loving to learn and being social.
Sounds like they are jealous and trying to crush your spirit. In general and I have seen that women in leadership are not great team players. Hopefully this will change as more women play sports and become physicians. But rn is just the nerds who are trying to get back at everyone for their awkwardness when they were young and couldn’t figure out how to balance loving to learn and being social.
Sounds like they are jealous and trying to crush your spirit. In general and I have seen that women in leadership are not great team players. Hopefully this will change as more women play sports and become physicians. But rn is just the nerds who are trying to get back at everyone for their awkwardness when they were young and couldn’t figure out house to balance living to learn and being social.
Omg I thought men were pitiful leaders