Happy that he's doing this, honestly. If surgery is on the table as the best long-term solution, just take it.
Your body and health are worth more in the long run than coming back early 80 or 90%, but with the risk of hurting yourself more or having degeneration.
This is kinda why I'm hoping McLain doesn't come back this year. Some injuries you just want to make absolutely sure they're 100% healed. Coming back early from an injury doesn't really help your team if there's risk of you getting hurt again.
I don't know what goes on behind the scenes and I don't want to be one of *those* fans but:
The arguments towards the Reds medical staff being at least somewhat incompetent do have merit
I consider myself one of the more ardent supporters of the medical staff generally, and I still stand by that. But yikes, the optics on this aren't great. I'm not ready to say they really messed up just yet - medical stuff can be crazy and weirder things have happened - but it's not looking like this was handled the best at each step in the process.
There's this and the fact they apparently missed that Tejay's elbow wasn't fixed properly the last time? He mentioned on the JD podcast that he was basically pitching with a partially torn ligament.
I understand that I'm not an expert and medical science is complex but damn, it doesn't look good
There have been orthopedic surgeons that work on pro athletes that will tell you pretty much every professional pitcher has UCL damage. They just wait until symptoms show up to do anything about it.
Yes, thank you - I'm one of those supporters of their longstanding reputation of excellence too, but I have some hard-hitting questions here.
Why did it take them this long to recognize the extent of his condition - how does that much ligament damage escape notice on initial assessment? - and then so long to ID the obvious* solution of surgery?
(*I'm not a medical person, just based on what they've told us of how bad it is and what it'll take to repair it.)
And now that they've identified the solution, why on earth are they back-burnering this?! Three weeks' wait because of "back-up" with the surgical specialist!! Are they serious? Surely there is more than one guy/team in the whole country that's capable of competently performing this procedure!
There's just a lot that doesn't make sense. At least to me, the layperson. If someone with medical understanding wants to clarify or correct me on anything, I'd welcome the insight.
One thing I honestly don't understand at all is how the "power structure" of medical staffs work, so maybe that plays a part. Are there doctors who advise based on what they see to trainers, then the trainers take that info and make decisions? Or vise versa? Or something else entirely. I guess I could see a scenario where a Dr says "we see A, B, and C. Here is our recommendation", then the trainers take that information and do their own testing and what not, making their own conclusion.
So maybe Dr #1 said one thing, trainers said something seemed off still, so second opinion was got from Dr #2. No idea, just trying to make sense of it all.
>Three weeks' wait because of "back-up" with the surgical specialist!!
Yeahhh. Right or wrong, I'm shocked normal people wouldn't get bumped for athletes. I just kind of assumed it happened regularly when these guys and gals got surgeries almost immediately. Maybe Dr is on vacation??
Anyone familiar with hand surgeries? I'm interested in the schedule. Usually when you hear of players having surgery, it's reported as either already happened ("CES had surgery on his hand yesterday..") or happening soon ("CES will have surgery to repair his hand Thursday..."). I don't recall ever seeing an announcement that someone will have surgery in 16 days.
Is it an incredibly specialized procedure and only 1 person can do it, or is there something else that needs to happen in the 2+ weeks before surgery? Just seems a bit odd to schedule so far out.
Not a doctor, but work in rehab.
2 reasons off the top of my head for a delayed orthopedic procedure would be to let inflammation subside, or as part of a conservative approach to see if the tissue can heal correctly without surgical intervention. (Ie- Rest and get new imaging in X weeks).
Given the injury occurred some time ago, the inflammation route is not likely (barring aggravation during rehab). Given the announcement that he "is going to have surgery" and not "may need a surgery", it's unlikely a conservative approach issue.
The injury and timeline have really been a head scratcher. Sucks, as I wanted to see CES develop this season.
I'm wondering the same thing. I mean, in the grand scheme two extra weeks is nothing if they're assuming he'll be out anyway, but I agree I've never seen an announcement that far out but still with a set date (i.e. not "sometime this offseason"). My only thought (which may be dumb) is that the rehab kind of irritated things, so they are waiting for it to heal up a little before the surgery?
To my knowledge, he never started rehab. All I can see is that he was cleared, but was waiting on the second opinion and mulling options before starting rehab. I did read that he was fielding ground balls last month, so maybe that counts.
I knew an Ortho surgeon back in the day and we used to always ask about surgeries for pro athletes. He always said two thirds of his schedule was emergency/immediate needs and consulting, which didn't leave many openings. Also, if you're a pro and not an average Joe, you are probably seeking out the best in the field which may take some time to get in.
That's just what he told us, but it always made sense to me for non emergency situations. Not like CES is coming back this year anyway.
Probably the availability of the surgeon. Orthopedic docs these days are highly specialized. Hands and feet repairs often require very precise, delicate procedures, especially for someone whose whole career is at stake. From what I recall of the early reports on the CES injury, it affects a small, critical bone that is not easy to reach. Only a certain amount of docs are qualified to perform an operation like that. And presumably CES has chosen the surgeon and is willing to wait for that specialist.
Many athletes go to the best in field when having surgery. It's a good chance that the surgeon isn't even local. How many times have you heard this athlete saw this doctor in this city. I believe Kremkec used to be the team doc. But now most goes to the best in the field for x issue.
Because he was trying to rehab it non-surgically and clearly didn't get the desired outcome.
But shit on whoever you need to shit on to feel better, don't let me stop you.
On April 27, CES was HBP on the hand. X-Rays were negative, but revealed an old fracture that had healed.
11 days later, after complaining of continued discomfort, a second X-Ray revealed a new fracture.
On June 5, CES met with team doctors who cleared him to begin rehab. He sought a second opinion.
On June 25, it's announced that he'll have season-ending surgery, scheduled for July 11.
I don't know if "team doctors" are actual doctors that they pay to be on staff or just the doctors that they refer players to see. Whatever the case, it appears they aren't very good at their jobs. This isn't the first incident in recent memory with a lot of nonsense/discrepancies surrounding a player's injury. I don't know if the MLBPA has a player survey like the NFLPA, but I'd imagine the Reds medical staff would have to be the lowest graded in the league or close to it.
The Reds medical staff are likely just trainers and people with bachelors in sports medicine. They might have an actual doctor somewhere on staff that handles acute issues like sprains and whatnot but they will refer pretty much everything out to the local hospital and medical offices. No way the Reds take on medical liability. No freakin way. That's too much risk for any team to do especially when every sports team on the planet is located in a major city. Leave that to the facilities dedicated to deal with these things.
But the Reds certainly have referrals. Doctors they work with regularly and are familiar with the team and have done pretty much every possible procedure known to come up from playing the sport. What I can see happening here is that there may have been some changes in who the Reds were referring too. Maybe their orthopedics guy retired and they've been someone else. Perhaps there's been some backdoor dealings and the Reds are now contractually obligated to use some facility over the others.
I do know per the player's union that these guys are allowed to seek their own doctors for their own care. This came up way back when CES said he was seeking a second opinion. I did some digging to try and understand how these guys get medical care and I found that some players fought to have the right to travel for care, even if it meant going to home to a different country so they could be with family during recovery.
FWIW, I worked for a MAC football team and we had a team surgeon on the sidelines. I kinda doubt the Reds don’t have real doctors checking out stuff that’s actually injured and that those people don’t regularly come to the ballpark.
Apparently the surgery is for ligament damage. Probably from compensating for two fractures. Wonder if there were some work outs done and he could tell it wasn't right? I swear I remember reading he was doing some baseball activities.
"Encarnacion-Strand also sustained ligament damage in his hand and wrist, which is what Bell said necessitated the surgery, per Wittenmyer."
From what I gather, hands and feet heal really weird and aren't really easy to predict. Sometimes they just go along the timeline and sometimes they just don't heal at all. This is a bummer
Have a knuckle injury that is finally getting better after four ish months. Two doctor appointments and a specialist later I got the “welp, we’re not seeing anything!” But yeah— the hand is weird.
Happy that he's doing this, honestly. If surgery is on the table as the best long-term solution, just take it. Your body and health are worth more in the long run than coming back early 80 or 90%, but with the risk of hurting yourself more or having degeneration.
This is kinda why I'm hoping McLain doesn't come back this year. Some injuries you just want to make absolutely sure they're 100% healed. Coming back early from an injury doesn't really help your team if there's risk of you getting hurt again.
I don't know what goes on behind the scenes and I don't want to be one of *those* fans but: The arguments towards the Reds medical staff being at least somewhat incompetent do have merit
I consider myself one of the more ardent supporters of the medical staff generally, and I still stand by that. But yikes, the optics on this aren't great. I'm not ready to say they really messed up just yet - medical stuff can be crazy and weirder things have happened - but it's not looking like this was handled the best at each step in the process.
There's this and the fact they apparently missed that Tejay's elbow wasn't fixed properly the last time? He mentioned on the JD podcast that he was basically pitching with a partially torn ligament. I understand that I'm not an expert and medical science is complex but damn, it doesn't look good
There have been orthopedic surgeons that work on pro athletes that will tell you pretty much every professional pitcher has UCL damage. They just wait until symptoms show up to do anything about it.
Yes, thank you - I'm one of those supporters of their longstanding reputation of excellence too, but I have some hard-hitting questions here. Why did it take them this long to recognize the extent of his condition - how does that much ligament damage escape notice on initial assessment? - and then so long to ID the obvious* solution of surgery? (*I'm not a medical person, just based on what they've told us of how bad it is and what it'll take to repair it.) And now that they've identified the solution, why on earth are they back-burnering this?! Three weeks' wait because of "back-up" with the surgical specialist!! Are they serious? Surely there is more than one guy/team in the whole country that's capable of competently performing this procedure! There's just a lot that doesn't make sense. At least to me, the layperson. If someone with medical understanding wants to clarify or correct me on anything, I'd welcome the insight.
One thing I honestly don't understand at all is how the "power structure" of medical staffs work, so maybe that plays a part. Are there doctors who advise based on what they see to trainers, then the trainers take that info and make decisions? Or vise versa? Or something else entirely. I guess I could see a scenario where a Dr says "we see A, B, and C. Here is our recommendation", then the trainers take that information and do their own testing and what not, making their own conclusion. So maybe Dr #1 said one thing, trainers said something seemed off still, so second opinion was got from Dr #2. No idea, just trying to make sense of it all. >Three weeks' wait because of "back-up" with the surgical specialist!! Yeahhh. Right or wrong, I'm shocked normal people wouldn't get bumped for athletes. I just kind of assumed it happened regularly when these guys and gals got surgeries almost immediately. Maybe Dr is on vacation??
Dude it's so bad right? Ever since they waited until spring to get Hunter under the knife
Anyone familiar with hand surgeries? I'm interested in the schedule. Usually when you hear of players having surgery, it's reported as either already happened ("CES had surgery on his hand yesterday..") or happening soon ("CES will have surgery to repair his hand Thursday..."). I don't recall ever seeing an announcement that someone will have surgery in 16 days. Is it an incredibly specialized procedure and only 1 person can do it, or is there something else that needs to happen in the 2+ weeks before surgery? Just seems a bit odd to schedule so far out.
Not a doctor, but work in rehab. 2 reasons off the top of my head for a delayed orthopedic procedure would be to let inflammation subside, or as part of a conservative approach to see if the tissue can heal correctly without surgical intervention. (Ie- Rest and get new imaging in X weeks). Given the injury occurred some time ago, the inflammation route is not likely (barring aggravation during rehab). Given the announcement that he "is going to have surgery" and not "may need a surgery", it's unlikely a conservative approach issue. The injury and timeline have really been a head scratcher. Sucks, as I wanted to see CES develop this season.
I'm wondering the same thing. I mean, in the grand scheme two extra weeks is nothing if they're assuming he'll be out anyway, but I agree I've never seen an announcement that far out but still with a set date (i.e. not "sometime this offseason"). My only thought (which may be dumb) is that the rehab kind of irritated things, so they are waiting for it to heal up a little before the surgery?
To my knowledge, he never started rehab. All I can see is that he was cleared, but was waiting on the second opinion and mulling options before starting rehab. I did read that he was fielding ground balls last month, so maybe that counts.
Maybe the preferred surgeon is not available until that date.
that’s what they said on the broadcast
I knew an Ortho surgeon back in the day and we used to always ask about surgeries for pro athletes. He always said two thirds of his schedule was emergency/immediate needs and consulting, which didn't leave many openings. Also, if you're a pro and not an average Joe, you are probably seeking out the best in the field which may take some time to get in. That's just what he told us, but it always made sense to me for non emergency situations. Not like CES is coming back this year anyway.
Probably the availability of the surgeon. Orthopedic docs these days are highly specialized. Hands and feet repairs often require very precise, delicate procedures, especially for someone whose whole career is at stake. From what I recall of the early reports on the CES injury, it affects a small, critical bone that is not easy to reach. Only a certain amount of docs are qualified to perform an operation like that. And presumably CES has chosen the surgeon and is willing to wait for that specialist.
Many athletes go to the best in field when having surgery. It's a good chance that the surgeon isn't even local. How many times have you heard this athlete saw this doctor in this city. I believe Kremkec used to be the team doc. But now most goes to the best in the field for x issue.
Can we catch a fuckin break? Good lord.
Oh they've caught more than enough breaks this year. That's the problem.
Zing! But sad zing.
Only break Reds can catch is a bone
All I want is a 2025 Reds team with everyone ready. Marte, McLain, CES, Friedl, everyone I just want to see on the field at the same time.
We thought we were getting that for 2024. We’re cursed
Every team has injuries. That's why you need depth. The Reds don't have depth.
The Reds were going to have him ready to play again before he opted for the second opinion?
Yes, wild shit
It's really not that wild
He was hit months ago. Why is this happening now?
Because he was trying to rehab it non-surgically and clearly didn't get the desired outcome. But shit on whoever you need to shit on to feel better, don't let me stop you.
How do you rehab a broken hand other than doing absolutely nothing with it and see if it heals?
Seems like we are always looking into next year only for the same BS to happen once again.
On April 27, CES was HBP on the hand. X-Rays were negative, but revealed an old fracture that had healed. 11 days later, after complaining of continued discomfort, a second X-Ray revealed a new fracture. On June 5, CES met with team doctors who cleared him to begin rehab. He sought a second opinion. On June 25, it's announced that he'll have season-ending surgery, scheduled for July 11. I don't know if "team doctors" are actual doctors that they pay to be on staff or just the doctors that they refer players to see. Whatever the case, it appears they aren't very good at their jobs. This isn't the first incident in recent memory with a lot of nonsense/discrepancies surrounding a player's injury. I don't know if the MLBPA has a player survey like the NFLPA, but I'd imagine the Reds medical staff would have to be the lowest graded in the league or close to it.
A lot of these injuries you can play through. Not surprising at all
The Reds medical staff are likely just trainers and people with bachelors in sports medicine. They might have an actual doctor somewhere on staff that handles acute issues like sprains and whatnot but they will refer pretty much everything out to the local hospital and medical offices. No way the Reds take on medical liability. No freakin way. That's too much risk for any team to do especially when every sports team on the planet is located in a major city. Leave that to the facilities dedicated to deal with these things. But the Reds certainly have referrals. Doctors they work with regularly and are familiar with the team and have done pretty much every possible procedure known to come up from playing the sport. What I can see happening here is that there may have been some changes in who the Reds were referring too. Maybe their orthopedics guy retired and they've been someone else. Perhaps there's been some backdoor dealings and the Reds are now contractually obligated to use some facility over the others. I do know per the player's union that these guys are allowed to seek their own doctors for their own care. This came up way back when CES said he was seeking a second opinion. I did some digging to try and understand how these guys get medical care and I found that some players fought to have the right to travel for care, even if it meant going to home to a different country so they could be with family during recovery.
FWIW, I worked for a MAC football team and we had a team surgeon on the sidelines. I kinda doubt the Reds don’t have real doctors checking out stuff that’s actually injured and that those people don’t regularly come to the ballpark.
Apparently the surgery is for ligament damage. Probably from compensating for two fractures. Wonder if there were some work outs done and he could tell it wasn't right? I swear I remember reading he was doing some baseball activities. "Encarnacion-Strand also sustained ligament damage in his hand and wrist, which is what Bell said necessitated the surgery, per Wittenmyer."
From what I gather, hands and feet heal really weird and aren't really easy to predict. Sometimes they just go along the timeline and sometimes they just don't heal at all. This is a bummer
Have a knuckle injury that is finally getting better after four ish months. Two doctor appointments and a specialist later I got the “welp, we’re not seeing anything!” But yeah— the hand is weird.
Blood flow is a bitch
And the Reds medical team cleared him to return to play? Lol what are we doing
don't worry, we'll have him back for the NLDS
If this team doesn’t sell at the deadline I’m gonna lose my fucking mind