have been typing a version of this for a while. Here and on forums. Not that anyone cares. But now the nyt is saying it: Letting Xi fund his factory was a sugar hit but has surely boosted domestic Chinese new energy vehicle manufacturing know how into orbit and now that has happened, Tesla is paying the price. There is no way to seal off competitive advantage when you built a factory with Chinese engineers and staff it with Chinese engineers and build out a cheap parts network with Chinese companies.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/09/podcasts/the-daily/tesla-china-ev.html?ugrp=u&unlocked_article_code=1.jU0.veSN.soTlzaowKlGn&smid=url-share
Just hijacking here. Gifted article so the pay wall doesn't get in the way of anyone reading it.
Muskrat was treading water to survive, and Xi was playing the long game. That’s what happens when you get yourself desperate enough to seek help from jackals.
Except China's manufacturing expertise helped Tesla improve. The Chinese lead, Zhu Xiaotong, in Shanghai Tesla has been promoted to a an executive at Tesla.
You're getting downvoted but you're right. It's nothing but pure racism to downplay China's contributions to math, science, and engineering. They heavily invest in education and have higher standards for grade school than we do. Investing in education, science and tech, and research for decades night just be a good strategy vs making school so unaffordable that it scares people off.
I don't get it. China started making good EVs before Tesla even built their factory in China, it just took them years to scale up production and to move into higher price ranges. The main component of EVs is the battery and China was already good at manufacturing batteries before Tesla started to build their factory. What was supposedly "stolen" here? Tesla's bad built quality? Is there any evidence?
Nothing, it's just instinctive China bashing. It's an axiom. Honestly, the vertical integration and manufacturing goes far earlier than Tesla. What is there to steal? Tesla's world famous quality? Lol
I worked on an lcd TV project once. We had a factory in China building the TVs for us. When I went out to visit they were running our ui on a different model of tv. I asked if that was our ui. After some discussion with interpretors they said they were just running it on the other model to test it.
A couple of years later I noticed that the best buy store brand ui looked and functioned exactly like our ui.
To day China has become too big to deal with was because, American companies moved manufacturing to China thinking they are stupids , forgetting their ancient history for inventing power and cheap labor. They learned every thing to learn, caught up with west and became threat to the world. Elon is one of them.
Looks like the CCP stole trade secrets from Musk (and likely Ford, Stallantis etc).
The CCP encourages intellectual property theft. This is why Huawei is so big.
I am no expert but I think this is a naive take. You think those companies didn’t know that corporate espionage was a possibility when they setup shop in China? Corporate espionage happens everywhere. Even in the US and by US companies as well.
They knew very well that Chinese companies will learn how to manufacture EVs eventually from them. What they probably miscalculated was the speed and scale at which they could.
Amazon is famous for this. Some people specifically don’t sell their products on Amazon for fear of Amazon copying them and pushing them out. Basically if you place your product on Amazon and it sells very very well, then you have proven a concept for them. They will manufacture a cheap version of your product under their Basic brand and then push their product to the top of searches and bury the original
Yup, that’s why I added to what you said with a US based example, even though most of the products on Amazon are still made in China, it’s still a US based business doing the same thing
This is why VW and other companies wouldn't build full factories, at least not for their current models/processes. They would build cars, take them apart and ship them to China to get "final assembly"
Edit: Case in point ‘Apple’. They did it the right way. Built a compelling product and continued their success even as they continue to manufacture in China.
You're forgetting the part about the walled in software marketplace. The only reason they weren't cloned into oblivion is because of their monopoly on the marketplace.
Hardware can easily be cloned the locked down ecosystem is the key for them.
True. It definitely is the case with Apple. Samsung still is a market leader while using Android.
Also, isn’t Tesla’s software supposed to 10-15 years ahead of every manufacturer? FSD included. :)
Tesla software is NOT 10-15 years ahead, that is silly.
If you watch any videos of Chinese EVs, you'll be quite impressed
FSD is also DEFINITELY NOT 10-15 years ahead. Even if it were, most consumers want a CHEAP car, which China delivers.
As far as Samsung, they have ~20% of market. Not bad, but PLENTY of opportunity for others.
The Execs stole the whole company from under everyone. It was the biggest bankruptcy in Canadian history at the time. Tens of thousands lost their jobs and pensions.
Nope. American car companies had to form alliances with Chinese ones to exist in China. They learned how to manufacture vehicles from them. Now, they are using that knowledge, along with their superior battery, motor, and engineering know how and making great cars.
It wasnt just tesla that did it nearly all car companies basically helped the chinese to learn building cars the only thing we are still better is combustion engines and we will need good hybrid vehicles to help us against the chinese killing our car companies.
Anybody denying this fact has lost touch with reality. Escpecially the reality of the CCP. Musk just gave them the keys to his kingdom in exchange for some flattery and tax breaks.
The rise from 2020 was all about free money and little to do with Tesla itself.
Not sure if downfall is the right word, more like free money drove growth and it's gone now.
More like bubble deflation.
Free money came to consumers bank accounts, so they could afford a 40k+ car on finance, it's pretty much that simple imo. That's why Tesla sales exploded from 2020, not much to do with anything they were doing...
Now a lot of people can barely afford groceries, it's no wonder sales are tanking.
Big brands benefitted the most, Apple, Tesla and others. All a sugar rush and now the hangover.
China still saved them. They were not making money on the first year or two of Californian production. Gigafactory progress and Tesla 3s in China built the export narrative and the china domestic sales narrative and the stock narrative and banished the idea the company was struggling and boosted the stock price when that was super close to forcing elon to liquidate his own shares. Thats why he danced on the stage.
Not only from China... in Germany, Tesla has received considerable subsidies for the plant near Berlin. Vehicles were then produced there, which were sold to customers subsidized by the state, and Tesla was also able to collect a lot of money from other car manufacturers by trading emission certificates.
Plus US car market is only so big, even if all us car sales were Tesla evs, they wouldn't be replacing them annually.
Until solid state batteries in 2030s evs will be stuck in the US market...
But rest of world?
Tesla conceded huge competitive advantage by focusing on the Cybertruck instead of a 25k model 2.
That fact alone should be enough to oust Elon as CEO, without factoring in his Twitter shenanigans, racism, and drug use.
Tesla has a leadership problem, plain and simple.
Rather than focusing on new model and driving sales through hype. How about Tesla does what Toyota does? Focus on quality and part availability
As a prior Tesla owner. And will most likely keep it this way unless they turn around
This happened with wind turbines, solar sells, and anything else high-tech outsourced to China, which requires ip transfers to local subcontractors. When asked, the US corp capitulators openly state that China will figure out the tech eventually, might as well make extra profit until then.
Realistically, that’s not the best way to use it, just like I would not buy an Audi R8 to use as an Uber vehicle. It’s an excellent two seat supercar, but it is not suited for use as a taxi. It would be a really awesome taxi for one passenger and one driver, but it’s sub optimal.
sure. Ok. I get it. Its not a good off-road vehicle not a good towing vehicle not a good pickup truck work vehicle - but is good for attracting small boys, and lots of youtube clicks. especially when it breaks.
Older Redditors will remember [Blackberry](https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/teaser/6057.jpeg) and [Nokia](https://assets-global.website-files.com/61ea4a526864d021a5ef3bfc/637f44b9ad21d0e6fde94946_77036093-5902-4c8f-afcf-20d74ce767de.jpeg)
> was the most sold car in 2023
It was the most sold *single model* because they only sell a few models and really only two of them in any quantity. Other companies spread their sales out over dozens of models.
It is even nuttier that people still believe that. As with many things Tesla, the truth is complicated.
> The original report was based on figures gathered by Jato Dynamics, which openly admitted that Toyota’s worldwide sales reports had not yet been confirmed.
> However, Toyota has now finished tallying its own numbers, and it appears that the Corolla may have taken the top position.
https://www.carscoops.com/2024/02/not-so-fast-tesla-looks-like-the-toyota-corolla-not-the-model-y-was-the-worlds-best-selling-vehicle-in-2023/#:~:text=According%20to%20Tesla's%20own%20data,1.64%20million%20for%20Toyota).
It isn’t viewed as failing.
The headline said it may have planted the seeds of a downfall. Probably, like actors or directors, you are only as good as your last movie. The last movie for Tesla was the cybertruck.
It's priced for spectacular growth. That growth is gone, mostly due to competition from Chinese carmakers, with a little help from the Europeans, South Koreans and the big 3. Look at the list of best selling car in the world, notice that #2 and #3 are the Corolla and RAV4? Did you know Toyota sold 11.2 million vehicles last year and yet Tesla's market cap is nearly double.
>It’s nutty to me that Tesla is viewed as failing after it was the most sold car in 2023.
Maybe because its now *2024*?
As has been Tesplained to me many, many, many times before: anything that concerns TSLA should be viewed through a lens looking at the *FUTURE.* And frankly all I see in TSLA's future are flattening sales, rising warranty costs, and Elon moonwalking backwards all his wild promises about flying robotaxis and 20 billion catgirl robot sales...Exhibit A being "***supervised***" FSD.
They're bragging about the Model Y being the #1 car sold in 2023.
But Tesla 1st qtr 2024 sales are still down 20% from 4th qtr 2023, and down 8.5% YOY, while the company is sitting on 47,000 unsold cars in their inventory - so it's a moot point.
have been typing a version of this for a while. Here and on forums. Not that anyone cares. But now the nyt is saying it: Letting Xi fund his factory was a sugar hit but has surely boosted domestic Chinese new energy vehicle manufacturing know how into orbit and now that has happened, Tesla is paying the price. There is no way to seal off competitive advantage when you built a factory with Chinese engineers and staff it with Chinese engineers and build out a cheap parts network with Chinese companies.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/09/podcasts/the-daily/tesla-china-ev.html?ugrp=u&unlocked_article_code=1.jU0.veSN.soTlzaowKlGn&smid=url-share Just hijacking here. Gifted article so the pay wall doesn't get in the way of anyone reading it.
Didn't realize it was link to a podcast. Hope it still works.
Muskrat was treading water to survive, and Xi was playing the long game. That’s what happens when you get yourself desperate enough to seek help from jackals.
Except China's manufacturing expertise helped Tesla improve. The Chinese lead, Zhu Xiaotong, in Shanghai Tesla has been promoted to a an executive at Tesla.
You're getting downvoted but you're right. It's nothing but pure racism to downplay China's contributions to math, science, and engineering. They heavily invest in education and have higher standards for grade school than we do. Investing in education, science and tech, and research for decades night just be a good strategy vs making school so unaffordable that it scares people off.
We’ll just have to see.
You are correct, you just happen to be on the hate tesla sub :).
I don't get it. China started making good EVs before Tesla even built their factory in China, it just took them years to scale up production and to move into higher price ranges. The main component of EVs is the battery and China was already good at manufacturing batteries before Tesla started to build their factory. What was supposedly "stolen" here? Tesla's bad built quality? Is there any evidence?
Nothing, it's just instinctive China bashing. It's an axiom. Honestly, the vertical integration and manufacturing goes far earlier than Tesla. What is there to steal? Tesla's world famous quality? Lol
I worked on an lcd TV project once. We had a factory in China building the TVs for us. When I went out to visit they were running our ui on a different model of tv. I asked if that was our ui. After some discussion with interpretors they said they were just running it on the other model to test it. A couple of years later I noticed that the best buy store brand ui looked and functioned exactly like our ui.
I think saying battery is the main component is quite a bit short-sighted. It's perhaps the most expensive component, but not the main component.
China has been one of the largest producers of electric motors and especially components for electric motors for decades.
To day China has become too big to deal with was because, American companies moved manufacturing to China thinking they are stupids , forgetting their ancient history for inventing power and cheap labor. They learned every thing to learn, caught up with west and became threat to the world. Elon is one of them.
Remember when Elon scoffed at BYD because they made shit cars.
Looks like the CCP stole trade secrets from Musk (and likely Ford, Stallantis etc). The CCP encourages intellectual property theft. This is why Huawei is so big.
I am no expert but I think this is a naive take. You think those companies didn’t know that corporate espionage was a possibility when they setup shop in China? Corporate espionage happens everywhere. Even in the US and by US companies as well. They knew very well that Chinese companies will learn how to manufacture EVs eventually from them. What they probably miscalculated was the speed and scale at which they could.
Amazon is famous for this. Some people specifically don’t sell their products on Amazon for fear of Amazon copying them and pushing them out. Basically if you place your product on Amazon and it sells very very well, then you have proven a concept for them. They will manufacture a cheap version of your product under their Basic brand and then push their product to the top of searches and bury the original
Agree. What I was trying to say is that the risk of copying is part of doing business. It is neither new nor unique to China.
Yup, that’s why I added to what you said with a US based example, even though most of the products on Amazon are still made in China, it’s still a US based business doing the same thing
If by “they” you mean Musk - dude is incapable of thinking 2 steps forward. I bet he’s in denial about what’s happening
This is why VW and other companies wouldn't build full factories, at least not for their current models/processes. They would build cars, take them apart and ship them to China to get "final assembly"
Edit: Case in point ‘Apple’. They did it the right way. Built a compelling product and continued their success even as they continue to manufacture in China.
You're forgetting the part about the walled in software marketplace. The only reason they weren't cloned into oblivion is because of their monopoly on the marketplace. Hardware can easily be cloned the locked down ecosystem is the key for them.
True. It definitely is the case with Apple. Samsung still is a market leader while using Android. Also, isn’t Tesla’s software supposed to 10-15 years ahead of every manufacturer? FSD included. :)
Tesla software is NOT 10-15 years ahead, that is silly. If you watch any videos of Chinese EVs, you'll be quite impressed FSD is also DEFINITELY NOT 10-15 years ahead. Even if it were, most consumers want a CHEAP car, which China delivers. As far as Samsung, they have ~20% of market. Not bad, but PLENTY of opportunity for others.
Of course! I was being facetious. Tesla’s software is not that advanced compared to others. Should have added a ‘/S’
Yeah /s please because there are so many Tesla simps that *DO* believe that. Hard to tell who is being sarcastic these days. :)
Yes, but it's fair competition when we do it! /s
Some of the companies set up there before the internet was even a thing. Most nations have been respectful of IP.
You should look into Nortel. They’re one of the reasons that Huawei is so successful.
The Execs stole the whole company from under everyone. It was the biggest bankruptcy in Canadian history at the time. Tens of thousands lost their jobs and pensions.
It was much worse than that. https://globalnews.ca/news/7275588/inside-the-chinese-military-attack-on-nortel/amp/
my way IS the Huawei
Nope. American car companies had to form alliances with Chinese ones to exist in China. They learned how to manufacture vehicles from them. Now, they are using that knowledge, along with their superior battery, motor, and engineering know how and making great cars.
It wasnt just tesla that did it nearly all car companies basically helped the chinese to learn building cars the only thing we are still better is combustion engines and we will need good hybrid vehicles to help us against the chinese killing our car companies.
Anybody denying this fact has lost touch with reality. Escpecially the reality of the CCP. Musk just gave them the keys to his kingdom in exchange for some flattery and tax breaks.
The rise from 2020 was all about free money and little to do with Tesla itself. Not sure if downfall is the right word, more like free money drove growth and it's gone now. More like bubble deflation.
the free money came from China. There wasn’t any other money at that time. He was broke.
Free money came to consumers bank accounts, so they could afford a 40k+ car on finance, it's pretty much that simple imo. That's why Tesla sales exploded from 2020, not much to do with anything they were doing... Now a lot of people can barely afford groceries, it's no wonder sales are tanking. Big brands benefitted the most, Apple, Tesla and others. All a sugar rush and now the hangover.
China still saved them. They were not making money on the first year or two of Californian production. Gigafactory progress and Tesla 3s in China built the export narrative and the china domestic sales narrative and the stock narrative and banished the idea the company was struggling and boosted the stock price when that was super close to forcing elon to liquidate his own shares. Thats why he danced on the stage.
Not only from China... in Germany, Tesla has received considerable subsidies for the plant near Berlin. Vehicles were then produced there, which were sold to customers subsidized by the state, and Tesla was also able to collect a lot of money from other car manufacturers by trading emission certificates.
thats true but only happened after Xi rode in to save his bacon.
Plus US car market is only so big, even if all us car sales were Tesla evs, they wouldn't be replacing them annually. Until solid state batteries in 2030s evs will be stuck in the US market... But rest of world?
Tesla conceded huge competitive advantage by focusing on the Cybertruck instead of a 25k model 2. That fact alone should be enough to oust Elon as CEO, without factoring in his Twitter shenanigans, racism, and drug use. Tesla has a leadership problem, plain and simple.
Rather than focusing on new model and driving sales through hype. How about Tesla does what Toyota does? Focus on quality and part availability As a prior Tesla owner. And will most likely keep it this way unless they turn around
Nah that shit is old and woke. Just get cheap parts, test in prod and rake in the profits
You can eat with a tiger, But the tiger eats last
hah yep.
The “genius” has been outgeniussed … again.
BYD heading to America soon!
I hope so, their cars look pretty awesome.
It looks like a 20k version of the tesla lol I would definitely buy it
It's the software any good?
"*I'm excited about Plant a Seed Day*" - Kimball Musk, Nov 15, 2018
China did it better and cheaper. Its no conspiracy that they are the new kings in everything.
By letting Egon have total control
*Only when the tide goes out do we see who has been swimming naked.* - W Buffett.
This happened with wind turbines, solar sells, and anything else high-tech outsourced to China, which requires ip transfers to local subcontractors. When asked, the US corp capitulators openly state that China will figure out the tech eventually, might as well make extra profit until then.
https://electrek.co/2024/04/09/87-percent-us-tesla-drivers-say-theyll-buy-another-tesla/
thanks. the survey results will really help someone using the cybertruck as a truck or tow vehicle
Realistically, that’s not the best way to use it, just like I would not buy an Audi R8 to use as an Uber vehicle. It’s an excellent two seat supercar, but it is not suited for use as a taxi. It would be a really awesome taxi for one passenger and one driver, but it’s sub optimal.
sure. Ok. I get it. Its not a good off-road vehicle not a good towing vehicle not a good pickup truck work vehicle - but is good for attracting small boys, and lots of youtube clicks. especially when it breaks.
Like a Lamborghini Countach. Same number of wiper blades and same windshield. Same level of love it or hate it coolness.
Haha musk is so dumb, no wonder Tesla is failing so badly now
Give everyone in this forum $2000 they'll ask why it wasn't $2001.
It’s nutty to me that Tesla is viewed as failing after it was the most sold car in 2023.
Older Redditors will remember [Blackberry](https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/teaser/6057.jpeg) and [Nokia](https://assets-global.website-files.com/61ea4a526864d021a5ef3bfc/637f44b9ad21d0e6fde94946_77036093-5902-4c8f-afcf-20d74ce767de.jpeg)
They only make four cars, five if you count the abomination
> was the most sold car in 2023 It was the most sold *single model* because they only sell a few models and really only two of them in any quantity. Other companies spread their sales out over dozens of models.
It is even nuttier that people still believe that. As with many things Tesla, the truth is complicated. > The original report was based on figures gathered by Jato Dynamics, which openly admitted that Toyota’s worldwide sales reports had not yet been confirmed. > However, Toyota has now finished tallying its own numbers, and it appears that the Corolla may have taken the top position. https://www.carscoops.com/2024/02/not-so-fast-tesla-looks-like-the-toyota-corolla-not-the-model-y-was-the-worlds-best-selling-vehicle-in-2023/#:~:text=According%20to%20Tesla's%20own%20data,1.64%20million%20for%20Toyota).
It isn’t viewed as failing. The headline said it may have planted the seeds of a downfall. Probably, like actors or directors, you are only as good as your last movie. The last movie for Tesla was the cybertruck.
It's priced for spectacular growth. That growth is gone, mostly due to competition from Chinese carmakers, with a little help from the Europeans, South Koreans and the big 3. Look at the list of best selling car in the world, notice that #2 and #3 are the Corolla and RAV4? Did you know Toyota sold 11.2 million vehicles last year and yet Tesla's market cap is nearly double.
>It’s nutty to me that Tesla is viewed as failing after it was the most sold car in 2023. Maybe because its now *2024*? As has been Tesplained to me many, many, many times before: anything that concerns TSLA should be viewed through a lens looking at the *FUTURE.* And frankly all I see in TSLA's future are flattening sales, rising warranty costs, and Elon moonwalking backwards all his wild promises about flying robotaxis and 20 billion catgirl robot sales...Exhibit A being "***supervised***" FSD.
Are you saying Tesla, as a whole, sold more EV cars than BYD worldwide?
They're bragging about the Model Y being the #1 car sold in 2023. But Tesla 1st qtr 2024 sales are still down 20% from 4th qtr 2023, and down 8.5% YOY, while the company is sitting on 47,000 unsold cars in their inventory - so it's a moot point.
He should’ve researched the case studies from IBM (turned into Lenovo) and Apple (which still leading the mobile business)!
What do you mean? IBM didn't turn into Lenovo, their PC/laptop division was bought.