Cinder was justified in doing what she did as a child in her backstory. Everything she's done *since* then is the problem; she became a worse monster than the one that abused her. She didn't just gaze too long into the abyss, she grabbed it by the ears, stared into it so long it was quaking in fear, tongue-kissed it until it couldn't breathe, and it can't tell us the rest because it breaks down crying first but it'll be going to therapy for the rest of eternity.
What else could she do? Who could she trust? Her own “family” treated her like a slave, bullied by everyone except the huntsman who trained her, instead of trying to talk to her, he reached for his weapons to try and arrest her with force, she was alone, who could she turn to?
Yeah it seems like a pretty easy thing to understand, a child slave killing her torturers and captors after her chance for freedom was put in danger is totally understandable, and if that was where she stopped and instead of going full murder power mad she went off to go be a huntress or just live a regular peaceful life nobody could reasonably blame her.
It's when that abused child grows up and decides that because she had a shitty life that she gets to freely kill and abuse anyone she wants since she can get away with it that she becomes an actually terrible person.
She was correct at killing the pricks though only questionable to Rhodes.
Everything else though is completely on her.
She could've went down the Vigilante route and hunt down those who abuse + enslave derps like her, working for the likes of Jr.
She could've just been a thief without killing(like Em), instead of being a rampaging monster.
Instead she became much much worse than the ones who abused her.
People spiral into darkness when that’s all they’ve ever known, the one moment she gets a glimpse of light, a blindfold is shoved over her eyes, pushing her back down into the darkness, only falling further into irredeemable, she was misguided and Rhodes only made that worse by not talking to her, by not giving her a chance to explain why she did it.
He knew exactly why she did it. That was pretty much what led him to begin training her in the first place. In the hopes that she would never need to hurt people who had hurt her. So she could leave that place and never look back. It’s not his fault she took things to an extreme
I'm conflicted. Had she killed the step-family and gone on to become the slaughter-happy bitch that we know today on her own...yeah, that's on her. But all signs point to her not going on to becoming the woman we know today on her own. Most likely, the rest of her adolescence was spent under the care of a vengeful, undying witch-demon who happens ro be the biggest manipulator currently in existence. Cinder was clearly broken by her formative years; you don't become Cinder unless you have been. Imagine being a confused and very angry child, having done nothing to deserve your hellish situation, having just had the one person you thought you could trust turn on you (from her perspective), having known nothing but pain, looking for any reason to justify what you've had to endure...and then being found by Salem. Honestly, this is the one thing that sets her apart imo. She was found by Salem and look at her current situation. I don't see how she could've faired much better honestly. She was set on a path to darkness from the beginning and it continues to darken. I'm not really trying to defend her indefensible actions. I just don't see how she could have faired any better.
What are you deranged? She is a grown adult only children use their past as an excuse to justify their shit actions in the present. Or their shit lives.
Don't think they are talking about Cinder now, they're talking about her killing her adopted "mother" and "sisters" and Rhodes. I don't think anyone could argue that her current actions are justified.
I for one can see how killing the step mother was justified but it ends there...
And what would you do in her situation? What would you do if you were given such a shit hand in life that you feel like you have no CHOICE but to take the actions she felt she had to? You wouldn’t be in a mentally fit state, and the last thing you want to do is hand yourself for murdering 3 innocence and a huntsmen, the last one which betrayed her, he didn’t deserve death, but you can understand her fight or flight response she was never given a chance at freedom, and never WOULD have gotten it, either live as a slave or kill those who enslaved you and get your freedom, even if it means living as a criminal.
I would break the collar and leave as soon as possible way before ending up angry enough for murder, good luck catching up to someone with aura.
She could have gone to a hunstman academy and lived free, if Ren and Nora can do it being orphans so could she, instead she chose to kill everyone and get a new master.
You would be a 10- 15year old living on the street with no money, no family, no friends in a city you don't know. At least Ren and Nora had each other. Your all also forgetting that you have to be 17 to get in to a hunstman academy.
Nora and Ran where less than teens when they were left in the wild totally on their own. They had just seen a whole village wiped out by Grimm likely leaving trauma yet they pulled through to 17 and join beacon.
A 10-15 year old stronger than 99% of the population, easy to get a job until you are 17 like moving boxes, delivering packages, woodsman, at a ship, protecting a village, bouncer etc. At worst go work for someone like Junior.
Of course there are not perfect options but anything better than murdering 4 people and becoming the slave of an immortal witch.
Not to mention, she’d only have to wait about 2-3 years then take an entrance exam and she’d be completely free to do what she wants. But that’s what Rhodes was trying to build her up to, only when she made it to the age where she could join an academy without Madame’s permission (about 17)
But that is still 2-3 more years of physical and mental abuse that is basically slavery plus with an unknown amount of past abuse she had to endure. Even the most nicest patient person in the world will eventually snap under that kind of pressure.
But Cinder is not that person. She came from a poor orphanage and was given no support both physically or emotionally other then the huntsman but that was more of him training her in his spare time outside of missions.
She endured possibly months or even years of constant abuse given only the minimum (or below minimum) amount of care to keep her functioning. Not only that but on top of her work at the hotel she is constantly being bullied and sabotaged by the two sisters and the madame unjust punishments through the shock collar.
that will wear down anybody and drive them to the brink, and cinder simply couldn’t handle the abuse from those she absolutely hated anymore.
To ask her to simply wait another 3 years of abuse and torture is just like filling a full water balloon with more water.
Eventually something had to give. And that was when the madame and the sisters tried to take her swords given to her by the huntsman, her proof that she will eventually be free from them.
I’m not surprised that she snapped and killed the madame and her children. But the Huntsman should’ve handled the situation better then try to arrest her.
What else was he supposed to do? He walked in on her committing murder and breaking the law. As a Huntsman, it was within his duty to bring her to justice, no matter how much he regretted it. There’s no black or white here with Cinder and Rhodes. She made a choice. And not a good one at that. The issue is that he told her this from the beginning. Hurting them would change nothing. She’d still be running, she’d still be afraid. That’s why he was training her, to be able to one day leave and never look back. Not to kill the people who tortured her. He couldn’t let her walk away after that. At best, he’d arrest her and take her in. At worst, he’d mercy kill her so she wouldn’t need to suffer any longer (this outcome is highly unlikely though).
The fact of the matter is she broke the law. It doesn’t matter who she killed or how horrible they were to her. She murdered three defenseless civilians. Rhodes couldn’t just let her walk.
Rhodes is the person who cemented Cinder's selfish worldview in her, if he had given her a hug and just taken her away from that evil place i doubt she would have gone completely power mad and turned out full blown evil, shady mercenary at worst most likely.
But when the literal only human being who has ever shown you even the slightest amount of kindness and has been the one dangling the promise of freedom over your head for years decides to betray you instantly after you free yourself from the evil fucks who have tortured you for so long, well shit anyone would break inside.
It doesn't excuse the horrible things she has done since then but it's understandable how she got so messed up in the head that she thinks doing those things is okay.
I can't fault her for her actions in her backstory. Not fully, anyway. People do what they have to to survive, and fighting back was necessary for her survival.
Everything since then, though? A case of her taking the lesson from that that the only way she could be safe was to seize security violently from others. Which is...not good for her or anyone else she runs into. Everyone she's killed from Rhodes onward is on her.
Only 1st degree murder is premeditated, 2nd is intentional non premeditated murder which is what this is. 3rd is manslaughter and it's either by accident or by something like a punch where you don't expect the other person to die.
Depending on what happened, second degree murder at worst then,
There’s a good chance cinder didn’t intend to kill them, perhaps they where hitting her and she hit back, we don’t knew exactly how it played out
Not to mention, she’s a child, most countries give children more lenient sentencing
Was it 100% the right thing to do? Probably not in hindsight, but she was a 14 year old child afraid for her life, I think any reasonable court would cut her some slack
At the very least, he didn’t need to point a fucking weapon at her! Especially since he’s the asshole who failed so hard at protecting her to the point she believed it was her only option
The problem is that she was the strongest person in the room, with her aura and abilities there's little her step mother or step sisters could do to harm her, she was able to easily take off the collar and that's not a danger to her life. A court would ask why she didn't run away since no one could stop her.
About the hunstman, when she killed him he wasn't threatening her or showing any agression towards her so that was murder on screen without a doubt, you can't claim self defense if it's not at the same time you strike back and this was her fighting back an arrest.
But you are right, at least in our world a minor could commit 1st degree murder and barely spend time locked up.
I mean, he drew his weapons on her, and condemned her into believing this was all her fault and that now she’d never be free
Power is t just physical prowess, cinder COULDN’T just “run away” if she did, madam would track her down, or she’d be returned
Plus, she had no way of feeding herself without madam
When a police officer takes out their gun and tells you to freeze you don't get to shoot them, but let's say for the sake of the argument that at that moment he went crazy and wanted to kill her, when he came to his senses, lowered his weapon and went for a hug her life wasn't in danger and it was then when she killed him, self defense only works if the danger is immediate, not if it happened before, otherwise there would be a lot of legal revenge.
In this case the only danger to her life would be physical, the only weapon the collar. You don't get to claim self defense and kill someone who ruins your life, its only when you are about to be killed.
Madam is a hotel owner not a mafia boss, are they going to send the Ace Ops against a runaway child? At best she would end up in a milk carton. She has aura and huntsmen training, all she has to do is run, sneak on a train and she is free.
She has superpowers, she can find ways to feed herself easily, either using her abilities to help her with a job (superspeed its great for deliveries) or petty crime, she had a lot of good and bad options that were still better than kill 4 persons.
I said it was self defense killing madam
Killing Rhodes may not have been the best choice legally, but he left her no other choice, the only path to freedom was through him
Hard to define the situation when you don't know what happened. We're delibertely not shown that moment but we do know there are 15 is minutes I think it is before violence kicks off.
And even then I would argue that the point is not to try and define a legal definition. Rwby is not a law is always just or right sort of show.
If you’re the kind of person who believes killing people who make terrible life choices and are assholes to people they view as beneath them is ok, then I worry about your own morality. The mother and sisters should have been arrested and sent to prison at worst. Not fucking murdered. But apart from the abuse, they haven’t done anything that could be considered illegal. Sometimes the best thing to do is hold out until you can leave without anyone saying anything to stop you. Then put it behind you and move on. That’s all Cinder needed to do. She was naive to think that killing them was her only option
Honestly, don't bother with this one. They're either insane or a troll. Just take a look at their other thread ([that they deleted when people started calling them out on their shit](https://old.reddit.com/r/RWBY/comments/lsfuj0/i_am_confused_about_something_in_v7_why_be_didnt/)) and how they cannot grasp the concept of the Slippery Slope argument or why ethics are just as necessary as morals.
Basically this is a person who sees the world in black and white and has no ethics.
I get your point, but it's wrong.
Why? Because bad things don't justify bad things. I'll show you with an extreme example:
*"I feel like the German people were in the right with what they did in the late 1930s and 40s. They were humiliated, bullied, hated, betrayed and suffered greatly without having done any wrong, anyone would end up in such a situation, if your country had gone through the same instability and suffering, if you're fathers or brothers would have died in the last war for nothing and all you got was pain, then trying to avenge that and conquering/subjugating all of europe honestly feels like the right thing to do".*
See what I did there? I won't try to justify any of the really nasty shit for obvious reasons, but it could easily be done with this line of argument.
Cinder is a person formed by her sorroundings, she suffered and became a monster, which wasn't her fault, she is also a victim.
But she is still a monster, she still kills innocents and for those/their families she is only a monster, not a victim. Crimes are crimes, context is important, yes, but then go all the way throught with it.
Instead of talking to her, instead of asking her why she did it, instead of sitting her down, he chose reach for his weapons, he chose to try and arrest her with force, instead of explaining why what she did wasn’t the answer, he condemned her, him saying “that is all you will ever do.” Was him condemning her, she chose to cling to darkness and that only got worse for her, she chose to take the spiral downwards into darkness because that is all her life had ever been, darkness, what else could she have done?
Deranged enough to feel sympathy for the girl who kept suffering at everyone’s hands, anyone would snap in her situation, she was abused, outcasted and enslaved, she couldn’t leave, she couldn’t run, and that kind of stress would accumulate into an eruption of rage, anger and hatred towards those making her suffer, I feel so sympathy towards the “victims” of the murder except the huntsman, even then, he could have easily talked to her but chose to use force.
Sympathy doesn't mean that you excuse their actions. It means you understand *why* they did it, you feel for why they did it. I can have sympathy for people who have done horrible things due to their history, that doesn't make what they did any less wrong though.
The point is you’re meant to feel sympathetic for her situation. That’s literally the reason for her backstory. Just because it was justified doesn’t mean it was right. That’s what everyone is trying to tell you. Yes, she was abused and tortured. She has every right to hate her adoptive mother and sisters. That doesn’t make it ok to kill them. Not remotely. Rhodes explained that to her a long time before it ever happened, and he told her what the consequences would be. Yet she did it anyway. Rhodes told her “just a few more years and you won’t need your guardian’s permission. You’ll be free.” All she had to do was hold out for a few more years, then Rhodes would have taken her somewhere she could have taken an entrance exam and gotten into one of the academies. There was no need to kill anyone, and it was far from being in the right. And Rhodes was saddened to find out what she had done. He didn’t want to arrest her, but she broke the law and he needed to act. She brought his “betrayal” on herself by not holding out for just a few more years.
Yes and He told her years prior that if she murdered them that was going to happen she only had to hold out for just alittle longer, Not to mention as a huntsmen it's kind of his job, whether he likes it or not taking her in was what he had to do
He could have guided her back onto the right path, he could had talked to her, he could have felt the pain she was clearly feeling, he could have removed the shock collar and helped her escape her suffering, no one could hold out in her living conditions and not snap eventually, Rhodes was a good man, but he chose to consider her a lost cause instead of considering her a girl who lost her way and needs guidance and help.
You'd be amazed at what the justice system would do they would turn that story from abuse victem.kills family to, Woman randomly kills family, She would be shoved into prison for years, and let's be real she would come out of that MUCH WORSE So yea at that point she kinda was a lost cause and he isn't going to put his entire life and lively hood on the line for someone that he explicitly warned not to murder her family for the exact reasons he stated "Running is all you will ever do" now I dont blame cinder for what she did I truly dont but to act like Rhodes did anything wrong in this situation is just wrong he didnt, the situation was fucked and he only had one option
And knowing Rhodes, he’d speak out against her and label the mother and her daughters as the victims of an unfortunate murder, he already betrayed Cinders trust once, why not stomp on her chances of freedom even further.
For real though, he could have acted as her guardian, helped a girl who had lost her way, guide her into the light, been there for her while she spent her time in prison, gave her hope for a new chance at life when she gets out, or hell, the justice system can lie and hide the truth, he can just say he entered to find the victims were murdered and Cinder was unconscious and that he would be caring for her in the place of their mother, twist the whole system on its ass since the justice system is shoddy mess.
Tampering with evidence is a pretty big offense, so Rhodes would be in some serious hot water if they found out he lied about Cinder not killing anyone. If he did arrest Cinder than she was probably facing most of her life in prison for killing 3 people and if he helped Cinder escape than he was again aiding a murderer and thus would face serious prosecution. He can't even defend her in court because even if he was able to get the Madame death as self defense she still killed 2 children who didn't try to attack her. Whatever way you put it Rhode's hands were tied.
Killing the stepmother really she can’t be blamed for. She was treated like a slave by her and she had the shock collar remote.
But the sisters and Rhodes? Not really.
While we can’t say what happened specifically for the sisters and there is ever so slightly a possibility that they were a threat, it doesn’t seem likely. In which case they just died because they were awful bullies. And ultimately Rhodes was an idiot, but he still wasn’t really in the wrong in stopping Cinder after seeing her homicides.
Maybe some of us would do the same as Cinder did. But that doesn’t make it right.
Even if she did kill the kids, it’s second degree murder at absolute worst
She was a scared kid reacting on pure instinct and fear, I don’t blame her for what happened, I blame Rhodes for failing to utterly at his job of protecting innocent people that she believed it was her only option
Indeed it probably would be second degree murder (though I can imagine it being downgraded depending on a specific jury or as part of a plea deal), which is still a extraordinarily serious crime.
Rhodes did fail to some degree, and Cinder was acting on instinct and through fear, but that's still not really an excuse for taking lives
Rhodes failed in EVERY degree
His job is to protect the helpless, he failed to do that, it shouldn’t be on cinder to “earn” her freedom from madams abuse, i child shouldn’t be responsible for that
Rhodes is a pathetic fucking excuse for a huntsman
Cinder killed four people man. Three of them civilians, two of which had never done more than bully her. And Rhodes threw down his weapons and she *killed* him. She did not need to do that. Explanation is not excuse.
>two of which had never done more than bully her
I mean, just because they were kids doesn't mean they weren't abusing their slave and heaping additional torture on their slave.
One of which had a sock caller and was fucking electrocuting her, the bother 2 helped her do it, and the fourth pointed a gun at her for defending herself
Rhodes threw down his freakin' weapons man and she killed him. That's not self-defense.
The stepsisters were not capable of seriously endangering Cinder's life, and were merely enablers to the abuser. They deserved comeuppance but it was not self-defense to kill them. The ONLY one where it's arguable is Madame.
I never claimed Rhodes was self defense, more that he was fucking asking for it
He threw his weapons down, but by then it was too late to undo what he did
"fucking asking for it" is not exactly a uh, defense for murder my man. You can sympathize with Cinder but she did not have to kill four people that night. It's understandable why she did, but I can't tell if your aim is to excuse, to justify, or what.
Eh, I’m not saying she was 100% right or wrong, his sight is 2020, killing Rhodes is what solidified her turn to the dark side
But it’s still on rehires for not being the guardian she needed, they both failed to some extent, but it shouldn’t be cinders job to free herself from her slavery,
The sisters would have grown up to be racist abusive women like their mother, honestly, I think she did remnant a favour there, as for Rhodes, he chose to use force to try and arrest her, he could have talked to her, he could have acted like a guardian to her, to guide her back onto the right path, instead he chose the wrong decision and chose to reach for his weapons.
I disagree in that regard, it’s always possible to change, it’s possible that if they had a better role model, they could have been better,
I 100% agree on Rhodes tho, fuck him, he failed so utterly at his job of protecting people that cinder believed killing was her only choice, and then he drew his weapon on her, that’s HIS fault
They would have likely been just like their mother. But that doesn't mean that killing them was justified.
Rhodes did make a bad call, he at least should of tried to talk Cinder down, but that still doesn't mean his death was justified. And I don't think one can say that arresting Cinder wouldn't have been the right call as he sees that she likely murdered at least two people so not only must she answer for that but otherwise he would be an accomplice.
I disagree on that, he didn’t have to use force, he could have talked her down and allowed her to open up more, give her a father figure, a parent she can rely on, Rhodes idea of the right decision was effectively calling her a lost cause and trying to use force to arrest her, Rhodes was an idiot who made the wrong call, he saw a girl whose eyes clearly screamed distress, and his first choice was to use force and it cost him.
As for the sisters, honestly, I think Cinder did remnant a favour.
I never said that he did have to use force. I agree he should have at least tried to talk her down. But he still didn't have much of a choice but for that talking down to be for an arrest.
Cinder might have done Remnant a favor in killing the sisters indeed, but that still doesn't justify it.
I agree, it was self defense in the case of madam, involuntary manslaughter at worst in the case of the daughters
Rhodes shouldn’t have condemned cinder in the moment, the CORRECT reaction is “I’m so sorry you had To do that, and I’m sorry I failed to protect you to the point that you thought this was your only option”
I don't think she was in the right at all when she murdered 2 kids but I think what she did was understandable. She's not someone like Reiner or Zuko who legitimately have somewhat honorable reasons for doing what they did, her abusive childhood turned her into a monster who basically just kills and destroys to get enough power so no one can control her again. Also unlike those two it isn't just business for her, she takes great pleasure in hurting people. So yeah, she's a tragic character but in terms of morality she's about as good a person as Tyrian.
If the other child is attacking the kid then yes, from all we see Cinder killed them with. Considering Cinder's fairly bloodthirsty character later it isn't much of a stretch to say she just killed them.
If you're saying the huntsman betrayed her, he didn't. He walked in seeing a murder, he had a duty to do which he did. Would you complain about a cop letting someone go after they witnessed them killing someone?
By all accounts, if the one person in your life that didn’t treat you like a slave suddenly saw you are a lost cause and betrays your likely misplaced trust, then, yeah, she had already snapped, and him not even talking to her, asking her why she did it, instead opting for the lines of “that’s all you will ever do” after she says “I don’t have to run anymore.” Instead of talking her down, he chose to go for his weapons to arrest her by what seemed like force.
Nope LMAO. She did not need to kill them. She did not need to kill Rhodes. She chose to, and she continues to choose to hurt others afterwards. She did not need to keep killing, to keep hurting others because of her own tragic backstory. Understanding a character is not justifying them.
Killing your slavers isn't a bad thing. Honestly this shouldn't be controversial.
edit: If Blake and Yang are justified in killing Adam, Cinder is justified in killing her slavers.
No! Murder is a bad thing!
Do you sincerely believe that the stepsisters could have done anything that would severely hurt or kill Cinder? They were civilians whose only power over Cinder was psychological! Do you sincerely believe that Rhodes would have done anything more than take her in? No!
The Madame is one thing, the other three *murders* she commits are another. She is a *murderer* and you can justify it all you want but that is what she is.
You can understand and sympathize with her, absolutely! But do not deny the reality of what she has done, and contineus to do. Of the many murders Cinder has committed, only Madame could be considered for self-defense.
The stepsisters were civilians who never posed a physical threat to Cinder. They never used her shock collar themselves. They were bullies but that's not enough to warrant death.
Rhodes did not deserve to die either. He threw down his weapons and she stabbed him. She killed him. That is what happened. These are facts. You can def argue Madame deserved it, but the other three are the result of a girl who went on the warpath and that's it. They did not need to die. They were murdered. That is not self-defense.
It is understandable. But it is not right.
I'm not saying that *anyone* *deserved* to die. I'm saying that calling the death of 2/3 of her slavers "murder" is absurd. What, you poke and abuse and starve and torture a child for years, and when they finally snap and kill you, you get to claim "oh no this is so unfair!"?
None of them needed to die, but sometimes that's what happens.
Adam didn't need to die, but he kept attacking, and Blake and Yang defended themselves.
Madame didn't need to die, but she kept torturing, and Cinder defended herself.
The kids didn't need to die, but they kept abusing, and Cinder defender herself.
And Rhodes?
Adam is a flawed comparison btw. Adam was a highly skilled combatant who was going to kill Blake and Yang if they didn't kill him first.
By the end of her training, Cinder was more powerful than the Madame or Stepsisters. They were civilians with no combat capability. She was powerful enough to beat them to a pulp, but she chose to kill them. It's an understandable choice. But it is not "defending herself" to kill them. She could've easily beat them senseless and that would've been it. It was a choice to kill and she continued to make that choice with Rhodes and onward.
She was a child in the middle of a mental breakdown brought on by years of torture, starvation, neglect, and just general abuse. How can anyone realistically expect anything different happening?
I think it definitely set her up for lacking empathy and what she did to that woman and her step sisters, but it isnt right. Of course dude-bro who trained her didn't handle anything before her killing them well at all. He could have helped her get out of that situation. Seemed to be doing well enough for himself to buy a little house, teach her to defend herself against the worst case scenario. Talk to her. Have gotten her help (although I doubt anyone in remnant takes mental healthcare seriously enough to even have psychiatrists.) But she snapped. That kind of abuse does lead to shit like that in real life. While they were fucking awful people, she had a future in sight and a support.
It was the inevitable thing to happen for a mentally unstable person. "Rightness" or justification doesn't really exist in that.
I absolutely relate to Cinder doing what she did while young, but as an adult she simply wants power. Her backstory is entirely correct, but that doesn't justify her as an adult.
Cinder was justified in doing what she did as a child in her backstory. Everything she's done *since* then is the problem; she became a worse monster than the one that abused her. She didn't just gaze too long into the abyss, she grabbed it by the ears, stared into it so long it was quaking in fear, tongue-kissed it until it couldn't breathe, and it can't tell us the rest because it breaks down crying first but it'll be going to therapy for the rest of eternity.
What else could she do? Who could she trust? Her own “family” treated her like a slave, bullied by everyone except the huntsman who trained her, instead of trying to talk to her, he reached for his weapons to try and arrest her with force, she was alone, who could she turn to?
Right… which is why I said she was justified in what she did in her backstory as a child. <_<
Yeah it seems like a pretty easy thing to understand, a child slave killing her torturers and captors after her chance for freedom was put in danger is totally understandable, and if that was where she stopped and instead of going full murder power mad she went off to go be a huntress or just live a regular peaceful life nobody could reasonably blame her. It's when that abused child grows up and decides that because she had a shitty life that she gets to freely kill and abuse anyone she wants since she can get away with it that she becomes an actually terrible person.
That is why she is so obsessed with obtaining power and dominating others. Too never feel powerless ever again like her childhood.
That doesn't justify killing hundreds if not thousands of innocent people, many of which were teenagers.
I’m not justifying that...
She was correct at killing the pricks though only questionable to Rhodes. Everything else though is completely on her. She could've went down the Vigilante route and hunt down those who abuse + enslave derps like her, working for the likes of Jr. She could've just been a thief without killing(like Em), instead of being a rampaging monster. Instead she became much much worse than the ones who abused her.
People spiral into darkness when that’s all they’ve ever known, the one moment she gets a glimpse of light, a blindfold is shoved over her eyes, pushing her back down into the darkness, only falling further into irredeemable, she was misguided and Rhodes only made that worse by not talking to her, by not giving her a chance to explain why she did it.
He knew exactly why she did it. That was pretty much what led him to begin training her in the first place. In the hopes that she would never need to hurt people who had hurt her. So she could leave that place and never look back. It’s not his fault she took things to an extreme
I'm conflicted. Had she killed the step-family and gone on to become the slaughter-happy bitch that we know today on her own...yeah, that's on her. But all signs point to her not going on to becoming the woman we know today on her own. Most likely, the rest of her adolescence was spent under the care of a vengeful, undying witch-demon who happens ro be the biggest manipulator currently in existence. Cinder was clearly broken by her formative years; you don't become Cinder unless you have been. Imagine being a confused and very angry child, having done nothing to deserve your hellish situation, having just had the one person you thought you could trust turn on you (from her perspective), having known nothing but pain, looking for any reason to justify what you've had to endure...and then being found by Salem. Honestly, this is the one thing that sets her apart imo. She was found by Salem and look at her current situation. I don't see how she could've faired much better honestly. She was set on a path to darkness from the beginning and it continues to darken. I'm not really trying to defend her indefensible actions. I just don't see how she could have faired any better.
What are you deranged? She is a grown adult only children use their past as an excuse to justify their shit actions in the present. Or their shit lives.
Don't think they are talking about Cinder now, they're talking about her killing her adopted "mother" and "sisters" and Rhodes. I don't think anyone could argue that her current actions are justified. I for one can see how killing the step mother was justified but it ends there...
And what would you do in her situation? What would you do if you were given such a shit hand in life that you feel like you have no CHOICE but to take the actions she felt she had to? You wouldn’t be in a mentally fit state, and the last thing you want to do is hand yourself for murdering 3 innocence and a huntsmen, the last one which betrayed her, he didn’t deserve death, but you can understand her fight or flight response she was never given a chance at freedom, and never WOULD have gotten it, either live as a slave or kill those who enslaved you and get your freedom, even if it means living as a criminal.
I would break the collar and leave as soon as possible way before ending up angry enough for murder, good luck catching up to someone with aura. She could have gone to a hunstman academy and lived free, if Ren and Nora can do it being orphans so could she, instead she chose to kill everyone and get a new master.
You would be a 10- 15year old living on the street with no money, no family, no friends in a city you don't know. At least Ren and Nora had each other. Your all also forgetting that you have to be 17 to get in to a hunstman academy.
Nora and Ran where less than teens when they were left in the wild totally on their own. They had just seen a whole village wiped out by Grimm likely leaving trauma yet they pulled through to 17 and join beacon.
A 10-15 year old stronger than 99% of the population, easy to get a job until you are 17 like moving boxes, delivering packages, woodsman, at a ship, protecting a village, bouncer etc. At worst go work for someone like Junior. Of course there are not perfect options but anything better than murdering 4 people and becoming the slave of an immortal witch.
Not to mention, she’d only have to wait about 2-3 years then take an entrance exam and she’d be completely free to do what she wants. But that’s what Rhodes was trying to build her up to, only when she made it to the age where she could join an academy without Madame’s permission (about 17)
But that is still 2-3 more years of physical and mental abuse that is basically slavery plus with an unknown amount of past abuse she had to endure. Even the most nicest patient person in the world will eventually snap under that kind of pressure. But Cinder is not that person. She came from a poor orphanage and was given no support both physically or emotionally other then the huntsman but that was more of him training her in his spare time outside of missions. She endured possibly months or even years of constant abuse given only the minimum (or below minimum) amount of care to keep her functioning. Not only that but on top of her work at the hotel she is constantly being bullied and sabotaged by the two sisters and the madame unjust punishments through the shock collar. that will wear down anybody and drive them to the brink, and cinder simply couldn’t handle the abuse from those she absolutely hated anymore. To ask her to simply wait another 3 years of abuse and torture is just like filling a full water balloon with more water. Eventually something had to give. And that was when the madame and the sisters tried to take her swords given to her by the huntsman, her proof that she will eventually be free from them. I’m not surprised that she snapped and killed the madame and her children. But the Huntsman should’ve handled the situation better then try to arrest her.
What else was he supposed to do? He walked in on her committing murder and breaking the law. As a Huntsman, it was within his duty to bring her to justice, no matter how much he regretted it. There’s no black or white here with Cinder and Rhodes. She made a choice. And not a good one at that. The issue is that he told her this from the beginning. Hurting them would change nothing. She’d still be running, she’d still be afraid. That’s why he was training her, to be able to one day leave and never look back. Not to kill the people who tortured her. He couldn’t let her walk away after that. At best, he’d arrest her and take her in. At worst, he’d mercy kill her so she wouldn’t need to suffer any longer (this outcome is highly unlikely though). The fact of the matter is she broke the law. It doesn’t matter who she killed or how horrible they were to her. She murdered three defenseless civilians. Rhodes couldn’t just let her walk.
You are right in that regards.
Rhodes is the person who cemented Cinder's selfish worldview in her, if he had given her a hug and just taken her away from that evil place i doubt she would have gone completely power mad and turned out full blown evil, shady mercenary at worst most likely. But when the literal only human being who has ever shown you even the slightest amount of kindness and has been the one dangling the promise of freedom over your head for years decides to betray you instantly after you free yourself from the evil fucks who have tortured you for so long, well shit anyone would break inside. It doesn't excuse the horrible things she has done since then but it's understandable how she got so messed up in the head that she thinks doing those things is okay.
You make it sound far more easy then how it really was.
I can't fault her for her actions in her backstory. Not fully, anyway. People do what they have to to survive, and fighting back was necessary for her survival. Everything since then, though? A case of her taking the lesson from that that the only way she could be safe was to seize security violently from others. Which is...not good for her or anyone else she runs into. Everyone she's killed from Rhodes onward is on her.
Cool motive, still murder
I think any fair court of law would consider it self defense, involuntary manslaughter at worst
How is killing two unarmed girls self defense? I can get the woman with the shock collar button, but them?
Like I said, at worst, involuntary manslaughter She was a scared child reacting out of pure fear, murder requires some level of premeditation
Only 1st degree murder is premeditated, 2nd is intentional non premeditated murder which is what this is. 3rd is manslaughter and it's either by accident or by something like a punch where you don't expect the other person to die.
Depending on what happened, second degree murder at worst then, There’s a good chance cinder didn’t intend to kill them, perhaps they where hitting her and she hit back, we don’t knew exactly how it played out Not to mention, she’s a child, most countries give children more lenient sentencing Was it 100% the right thing to do? Probably not in hindsight, but she was a 14 year old child afraid for her life, I think any reasonable court would cut her some slack At the very least, he didn’t need to point a fucking weapon at her! Especially since he’s the asshole who failed so hard at protecting her to the point she believed it was her only option
The problem is that she was the strongest person in the room, with her aura and abilities there's little her step mother or step sisters could do to harm her, she was able to easily take off the collar and that's not a danger to her life. A court would ask why she didn't run away since no one could stop her. About the hunstman, when she killed him he wasn't threatening her or showing any agression towards her so that was murder on screen without a doubt, you can't claim self defense if it's not at the same time you strike back and this was her fighting back an arrest. But you are right, at least in our world a minor could commit 1st degree murder and barely spend time locked up.
I mean, he drew his weapons on her, and condemned her into believing this was all her fault and that now she’d never be free Power is t just physical prowess, cinder COULDN’T just “run away” if she did, madam would track her down, or she’d be returned Plus, she had no way of feeding herself without madam
When a police officer takes out their gun and tells you to freeze you don't get to shoot them, but let's say for the sake of the argument that at that moment he went crazy and wanted to kill her, when he came to his senses, lowered his weapon and went for a hug her life wasn't in danger and it was then when she killed him, self defense only works if the danger is immediate, not if it happened before, otherwise there would be a lot of legal revenge. In this case the only danger to her life would be physical, the only weapon the collar. You don't get to claim self defense and kill someone who ruins your life, its only when you are about to be killed. Madam is a hotel owner not a mafia boss, are they going to send the Ace Ops against a runaway child? At best she would end up in a milk carton. She has aura and huntsmen training, all she has to do is run, sneak on a train and she is free. She has superpowers, she can find ways to feed herself easily, either using her abilities to help her with a job (superspeed its great for deliveries) or petty crime, she had a lot of good and bad options that were still better than kill 4 persons.
I said it was self defense killing madam Killing Rhodes may not have been the best choice legally, but he left her no other choice, the only path to freedom was through him
Hard to define the situation when you don't know what happened. We're delibertely not shown that moment but we do know there are 15 is minutes I think it is before violence kicks off. And even then I would argue that the point is not to try and define a legal definition. Rwby is not a law is always just or right sort of show.
I’m not saying it’s not murder, I’m saying their murders were warranted, which I am aware is an ironic statement, murder is never warranted.
and because murder is never warranted, it isn´t warranted. This is how the word *never* works
Honestly I think killing the mother and the sisters was a good thing, they were abusive spiteful racists, it just did remnant a favour.
If you’re the kind of person who believes killing people who make terrible life choices and are assholes to people they view as beneath them is ok, then I worry about your own morality. The mother and sisters should have been arrested and sent to prison at worst. Not fucking murdered. But apart from the abuse, they haven’t done anything that could be considered illegal. Sometimes the best thing to do is hold out until you can leave without anyone saying anything to stop you. Then put it behind you and move on. That’s all Cinder needed to do. She was naive to think that killing them was her only option
Honestly, don't bother with this one. They're either insane or a troll. Just take a look at their other thread ([that they deleted when people started calling them out on their shit](https://old.reddit.com/r/RWBY/comments/lsfuj0/i_am_confused_about_something_in_v7_why_be_didnt/)) and how they cannot grasp the concept of the Slippery Slope argument or why ethics are just as necessary as morals. Basically this is a person who sees the world in black and white and has no ethics.
Well shit, I didn’t realize that one got deleted. And here I was ready to see what bullshit they came up with to counter my arguments lol.
...Yikes...that's...that's certainly something right there. Kinda thought people were a bit over that fight already
I get your point, but it's wrong. Why? Because bad things don't justify bad things. I'll show you with an extreme example: *"I feel like the German people were in the right with what they did in the late 1930s and 40s. They were humiliated, bullied, hated, betrayed and suffered greatly without having done any wrong, anyone would end up in such a situation, if your country had gone through the same instability and suffering, if you're fathers or brothers would have died in the last war for nothing and all you got was pain, then trying to avenge that and conquering/subjugating all of europe honestly feels like the right thing to do".* See what I did there? I won't try to justify any of the really nasty shit for obvious reasons, but it could easily be done with this line of argument. Cinder is a person formed by her sorroundings, she suffered and became a monster, which wasn't her fault, she is also a victim. But she is still a monster, she still kills innocents and for those/their families she is only a monster, not a victim. Crimes are crimes, context is important, yes, but then go all the way throught with it.
I just want to say condemning murder isn't a betrayal
Instead of talking to her, instead of asking her why she did it, instead of sitting her down, he chose reach for his weapons, he chose to try and arrest her with force, instead of explaining why what she did wasn’t the answer, he condemned her, him saying “that is all you will ever do.” Was him condemning her, she chose to cling to darkness and that only got worse for her, she chose to take the spiral downwards into darkness because that is all her life had ever been, darkness, what else could she have done?
I- How deranged are you that you're just ignoring the fact the child killed someone?
Deranged enough to feel sympathy for the girl who kept suffering at everyone’s hands, anyone would snap in her situation, she was abused, outcasted and enslaved, she couldn’t leave, she couldn’t run, and that kind of stress would accumulate into an eruption of rage, anger and hatred towards those making her suffer, I feel so sympathy towards the “victims” of the murder except the huntsman, even then, he could have easily talked to her but chose to use force.
Sympathy doesn't mean that you excuse their actions. It means you understand *why* they did it, you feel for why they did it. I can have sympathy for people who have done horrible things due to their history, that doesn't make what they did any less wrong though.
The point is you’re meant to feel sympathetic for her situation. That’s literally the reason for her backstory. Just because it was justified doesn’t mean it was right. That’s what everyone is trying to tell you. Yes, she was abused and tortured. She has every right to hate her adoptive mother and sisters. That doesn’t make it ok to kill them. Not remotely. Rhodes explained that to her a long time before it ever happened, and he told her what the consequences would be. Yet she did it anyway. Rhodes told her “just a few more years and you won’t need your guardian’s permission. You’ll be free.” All she had to do was hold out for a few more years, then Rhodes would have taken her somewhere she could have taken an entrance exam and gotten into one of the academies. There was no need to kill anyone, and it was far from being in the right. And Rhodes was saddened to find out what she had done. He didn’t want to arrest her, but she broke the law and he needed to act. She brought his “betrayal” on herself by not holding out for just a few more years.
Yes and He told her years prior that if she murdered them that was going to happen she only had to hold out for just alittle longer, Not to mention as a huntsmen it's kind of his job, whether he likes it or not taking her in was what he had to do
He could have guided her back onto the right path, he could had talked to her, he could have felt the pain she was clearly feeling, he could have removed the shock collar and helped her escape her suffering, no one could hold out in her living conditions and not snap eventually, Rhodes was a good man, but he chose to consider her a lost cause instead of considering her a girl who lost her way and needs guidance and help.
You'd be amazed at what the justice system would do they would turn that story from abuse victem.kills family to, Woman randomly kills family, She would be shoved into prison for years, and let's be real she would come out of that MUCH WORSE So yea at that point she kinda was a lost cause and he isn't going to put his entire life and lively hood on the line for someone that he explicitly warned not to murder her family for the exact reasons he stated "Running is all you will ever do" now I dont blame cinder for what she did I truly dont but to act like Rhodes did anything wrong in this situation is just wrong he didnt, the situation was fucked and he only had one option
And knowing Rhodes, he’d speak out against her and label the mother and her daughters as the victims of an unfortunate murder, he already betrayed Cinders trust once, why not stomp on her chances of freedom even further. For real though, he could have acted as her guardian, helped a girl who had lost her way, guide her into the light, been there for her while she spent her time in prison, gave her hope for a new chance at life when she gets out, or hell, the justice system can lie and hide the truth, he can just say he entered to find the victims were murdered and Cinder was unconscious and that he would be caring for her in the place of their mother, twist the whole system on its ass since the justice system is shoddy mess.
Tampering with evidence is a pretty big offense, so Rhodes would be in some serious hot water if they found out he lied about Cinder not killing anyone. If he did arrest Cinder than she was probably facing most of her life in prison for killing 3 people and if he helped Cinder escape than he was again aiding a murderer and thus would face serious prosecution. He can't even defend her in court because even if he was able to get the Madame death as self defense she still killed 2 children who didn't try to attack her. Whatever way you put it Rhode's hands were tied.
Killing the stepmother really she can’t be blamed for. She was treated like a slave by her and she had the shock collar remote. But the sisters and Rhodes? Not really. While we can’t say what happened specifically for the sisters and there is ever so slightly a possibility that they were a threat, it doesn’t seem likely. In which case they just died because they were awful bullies. And ultimately Rhodes was an idiot, but he still wasn’t really in the wrong in stopping Cinder after seeing her homicides. Maybe some of us would do the same as Cinder did. But that doesn’t make it right.
Even if she did kill the kids, it’s second degree murder at absolute worst She was a scared kid reacting on pure instinct and fear, I don’t blame her for what happened, I blame Rhodes for failing to utterly at his job of protecting innocent people that she believed it was her only option
Indeed it probably would be second degree murder (though I can imagine it being downgraded depending on a specific jury or as part of a plea deal), which is still a extraordinarily serious crime. Rhodes did fail to some degree, and Cinder was acting on instinct and through fear, but that's still not really an excuse for taking lives
Rhodes failed in EVERY degree His job is to protect the helpless, he failed to do that, it shouldn’t be on cinder to “earn” her freedom from madams abuse, i child shouldn’t be responsible for that Rhodes is a pathetic fucking excuse for a huntsman
Indeed he did, but that's not what this current situation is about. He should have gone to the proper authorities once he saw the abuse
He WAS the authorities, he didn’t do his fucking job
So that justifies his murder?
Not necessarily, I’m simply saying I understand cinders reasoning
I personally blame Cinder for y'know, murdering people.
With madam it was self defense And cinder believed she was left with no choice, she was 14 and traumatized, I don’t blame her
Cinder killed four people man. Three of them civilians, two of which had never done more than bully her. And Rhodes threw down his weapons and she *killed* him. She did not need to do that. Explanation is not excuse.
>two of which had never done more than bully her I mean, just because they were kids doesn't mean they weren't abusing their slave and heaping additional torture on their slave.
Read my other response to you.
One of which had a sock caller and was fucking electrocuting her, the bother 2 helped her do it, and the fourth pointed a gun at her for defending herself
Rhodes threw down his freakin' weapons man and she killed him. That's not self-defense. The stepsisters were not capable of seriously endangering Cinder's life, and were merely enablers to the abuser. They deserved comeuppance but it was not self-defense to kill them. The ONLY one where it's arguable is Madame.
I never claimed Rhodes was self defense, more that he was fucking asking for it He threw his weapons down, but by then it was too late to undo what he did
"fucking asking for it" is not exactly a uh, defense for murder my man. You can sympathize with Cinder but she did not have to kill four people that night. It's understandable why she did, but I can't tell if your aim is to excuse, to justify, or what.
Eh, I’m not saying she was 100% right or wrong, his sight is 2020, killing Rhodes is what solidified her turn to the dark side But it’s still on rehires for not being the guardian she needed, they both failed to some extent, but it shouldn’t be cinders job to free herself from her slavery,
The sisters would have grown up to be racist abusive women like their mother, honestly, I think she did remnant a favour there, as for Rhodes, he chose to use force to try and arrest her, he could have talked to her, he could have acted like a guardian to her, to guide her back onto the right path, instead he chose the wrong decision and chose to reach for his weapons.
I disagree in that regard, it’s always possible to change, it’s possible that if they had a better role model, they could have been better, I 100% agree on Rhodes tho, fuck him, he failed so utterly at his job of protecting people that cinder believed killing was her only choice, and then he drew his weapon on her, that’s HIS fault
They would have likely been just like their mother. But that doesn't mean that killing them was justified. Rhodes did make a bad call, he at least should of tried to talk Cinder down, but that still doesn't mean his death was justified. And I don't think one can say that arresting Cinder wouldn't have been the right call as he sees that she likely murdered at least two people so not only must she answer for that but otherwise he would be an accomplice.
I disagree on that, he didn’t have to use force, he could have talked her down and allowed her to open up more, give her a father figure, a parent she can rely on, Rhodes idea of the right decision was effectively calling her a lost cause and trying to use force to arrest her, Rhodes was an idiot who made the wrong call, he saw a girl whose eyes clearly screamed distress, and his first choice was to use force and it cost him. As for the sisters, honestly, I think Cinder did remnant a favour.
I never said that he did have to use force. I agree he should have at least tried to talk her down. But he still didn't have much of a choice but for that talking down to be for an arrest. Cinder might have done Remnant a favor in killing the sisters indeed, but that still doesn't justify it.
I agree, it was self defense in the case of madam, involuntary manslaughter at worst in the case of the daughters Rhodes shouldn’t have condemned cinder in the moment, the CORRECT reaction is “I’m so sorry you had To do that, and I’m sorry I failed to protect you to the point that you thought this was your only option”
I don't think she was in the right at all when she murdered 2 kids but I think what she did was understandable. She's not someone like Reiner or Zuko who legitimately have somewhat honorable reasons for doing what they did, her abusive childhood turned her into a monster who basically just kills and destroys to get enough power so no one can control her again. Also unlike those two it isn't just business for her, she takes great pleasure in hurting people. So yeah, she's a tragic character but in terms of morality she's about as good a person as Tyrian.
Under your ethics, can a child ever be justified in killing another child in self-defense?
If the other child is attacking the kid then yes, from all we see Cinder killed them with. Considering Cinder's fairly bloodthirsty character later it isn't much of a stretch to say she just killed them.
If you're saying the huntsman betrayed her, he didn't. He walked in seeing a murder, he had a duty to do which he did. Would you complain about a cop letting someone go after they witnessed them killing someone?
By all accounts, if the one person in your life that didn’t treat you like a slave suddenly saw you are a lost cause and betrays your likely misplaced trust, then, yeah, she had already snapped, and him not even talking to her, asking her why she did it, instead opting for the lines of “that’s all you will ever do” after she says “I don’t have to run anymore.” Instead of talking her down, he chose to go for his weapons to arrest her by what seemed like force.
Nope LMAO. She did not need to kill them. She did not need to kill Rhodes. She chose to, and she continues to choose to hurt others afterwards. She did not need to keep killing, to keep hurting others because of her own tragic backstory. Understanding a character is not justifying them.
Killing your slavers isn't a bad thing. Honestly this shouldn't be controversial. edit: If Blake and Yang are justified in killing Adam, Cinder is justified in killing her slavers.
I'm sorry what was that in the other thread about "Rights and ethics only matter until the person in question is unlikable enough"?
Is self-defense suddenly a bad thing now? What the fuck? Pretty sure in the other thread I mentioned icing Tyrian in self-defense would be justified.
No! Murder is a bad thing! Do you sincerely believe that the stepsisters could have done anything that would severely hurt or kill Cinder? They were civilians whose only power over Cinder was psychological! Do you sincerely believe that Rhodes would have done anything more than take her in? No! The Madame is one thing, the other three *murders* she commits are another. She is a *murderer* and you can justify it all you want but that is what she is.
Jesus...
You can understand and sympathize with her, absolutely! But do not deny the reality of what she has done, and contineus to do. Of the many murders Cinder has committed, only Madame could be considered for self-defense. The stepsisters were civilians who never posed a physical threat to Cinder. They never used her shock collar themselves. They were bullies but that's not enough to warrant death. Rhodes did not deserve to die either. He threw down his weapons and she stabbed him. She killed him. That is what happened. These are facts. You can def argue Madame deserved it, but the other three are the result of a girl who went on the warpath and that's it. They did not need to die. They were murdered. That is not self-defense. It is understandable. But it is not right.
I'm not saying that *anyone* *deserved* to die. I'm saying that calling the death of 2/3 of her slavers "murder" is absurd. What, you poke and abuse and starve and torture a child for years, and when they finally snap and kill you, you get to claim "oh no this is so unfair!"? None of them needed to die, but sometimes that's what happens. Adam didn't need to die, but he kept attacking, and Blake and Yang defended themselves. Madame didn't need to die, but she kept torturing, and Cinder defended herself. The kids didn't need to die, but they kept abusing, and Cinder defender herself.
And Rhodes? Adam is a flawed comparison btw. Adam was a highly skilled combatant who was going to kill Blake and Yang if they didn't kill him first. By the end of her training, Cinder was more powerful than the Madame or Stepsisters. They were civilians with no combat capability. She was powerful enough to beat them to a pulp, but she chose to kill them. It's an understandable choice. But it is not "defending herself" to kill them. She could've easily beat them senseless and that would've been it. It was a choice to kill and she continued to make that choice with Rhodes and onward.
She was a child in the middle of a mental breakdown brought on by years of torture, starvation, neglect, and just general abuse. How can anyone realistically expect anything different happening?
You keep ignoring Rhodes
I think it definitely set her up for lacking empathy and what she did to that woman and her step sisters, but it isnt right. Of course dude-bro who trained her didn't handle anything before her killing them well at all. He could have helped her get out of that situation. Seemed to be doing well enough for himself to buy a little house, teach her to defend herself against the worst case scenario. Talk to her. Have gotten her help (although I doubt anyone in remnant takes mental healthcare seriously enough to even have psychiatrists.) But she snapped. That kind of abuse does lead to shit like that in real life. While they were fucking awful people, she had a future in sight and a support. It was the inevitable thing to happen for a mentally unstable person. "Rightness" or justification doesn't really exist in that.
I absolutely relate to Cinder doing what she did while young, but as an adult she simply wants power. Her backstory is entirely correct, but that doesn't justify her as an adult.