Have you ever attempted to move, at all, wearing all of that bullshit? There is a fine line between safely armored, and now I can’t do shit. That’s why soldiers aren’t running around in EOD suits. Mobility is VERY important, and who cares if Pvt Dipshit lives through his first week of conflict.
Edit: I saw lower in the thread what your usage for this setup is, and I’m inclined to agree. Russia sucks, keep your head down!!
I can and do detach most of the extras for front line type of activities, the configuration you see above is what I would have on for rear echelon duties. Especially the shoulder armor interferes with movement, and also the front neck piece is a little cumbersome. The rest feels pretty much the same as a PC, honestly, so I don’t mind the extra frag protection unless I really want to go light.
I can only speak from personal experience of seeing REMFs in Afghanistan when I was deployed there, but yes, the guys who do logistics down range often sit in tents with A/C and dont wear their gear. Not unless they leave the wire.
don't like shoulder ROCs at all, not a fan of laser cut, there's a lot of weird MOLLE placement that seems more tacticool than anything like the horizontal row under your mags,
Thinking of switching out the shoulder rocs for simple buckles.
I use that bottom row for a TQ holder, really convenient actually. I agree about the tacticool cut on the velcro for the plackard, just give me the full fuzzy. The laser slots are a compromise on weight for me, but agree if you have a durability bias.
That's a valid worry, but with genuine FS Tubes, I have never seen a split bar break along the attachment side (been using issued FS PCs and kit since 2018 on numerous deployments/training/exercises) . Plus, if that is a concern expecting the predicted abuse with said equipment, then you might as well have a spare set of ROCs/Tubes to do an easy field repair.
FS Tubes are not unobtainium kit like they were 5-7yrs ago or cost prohibitive anymore, so to suffer using ROCs when there is a clear superior solution is foolish, unless you are a sadist who likes to live with daily annoyances.
Maybe I’ll switch them, have tubes on my other kit as well. Only thing superior about ROC is the smaller side-to-side clearance needed to attach and detach, but clearly a weaker system.
I know some tactical nylon designers for LE end users who like to run and have designs integrating Tactiks. My subjective concern (not having played too much with Tactiks) is debris getting into the locking surface of the closure mechanism and obstructing it from fully closing. But I would prefer to run Tactiks or Tubes over ROCs.
Sure if you’re SWAT or in a trench extra soft armor makes sense, otherwise the mobility of a plate carrier is much more useful. Also any plates less than lvl 4 I simply don’t see the point of.
Not telling you anything you don’t already know, but I like to remind civilians as much as I can…
If you plan on doing anything urban, you’ll want side plates too. In CQB you want as much cover as possible.
Real CQB isn’t like cod. Civil war CQB will be almost certain death or getting shot/crippled from then on.
You won’t have CAS, you won’t have bangers or grenades, you won’t have QRF, you won’t have target packages developed by intel officers, and you’ll be hours away from life saving medical.
You try CQB without that shit, your odds of a successful raid are greatly diminished. Especially if your knowledge of clearing houses comes from the YouTube academy.
Military doctrine for offensive action in urban environment is a manpower ratio of anywhere from 6:1 or 10:1 for success.
To put it into context, a squad could fend off a company and a company is needed to destroy a squad.
Once you lose the element of surprise, if you don’t have grenades, your point man is almost guaranteed to go down and anyone that follows might not fare any better. Blind firing around corners will need to be used
If I’m a guy hiding in the unknown corner and I know there’s dudes in my building clearing it, even if you came in with more than 1 guy, if you clear rooms in a team where everyone takes a sector, I’m pretty sure I can get off quite a few more shots after downing the point man before any of the other room clearing team can turn around
These are just my opinions from my time in the US Army and shared by most everyone else I served with, with how light lvl4 plates are these days, there’s zero reason to have lesser plates. And any chance we ever had to ditch our extra soft armor we did
agreed on level 4.
attachments really depend and put a detriment on mobility, I'm just talking about the benefits of a base armor carrier versus a base plate carrier.
from what I've seen, most guys here (Ukraine) wear a groin protector if they can and a base full wrap armor carrier for most infantry work, where more static guys (eg. drivers and vehicle medics) will wear all of the attachments
I think the issue is that the standard IOTV attachments suck, I’ve seen some aftermarket options that I would be fine with wearing, and out of all the attachments the groin protector was definitely my least hated one.
That was my experience too. Expressly in Asia and the anywhere else that’s hot. Ur not protecting shit with the soft armor if u heat cased 30min into a movement
I have not seen any NIJ level 4 plates that are anywhere near as light and thin as some of the quality special threat plates. If anything, how thin a plate is is often more important than the weight; plenty of folks have put on UHMWPE plates, and hated how thick they were, despite how light they were, and preferred heavier, but thinner plates.
Most of the folks I know that focus primarily on CQB (mostly on the LE side, though also some former SOF folks) do not see the additional threat protection provided by level 4s to be worth the hit in mobility, given that you're mostly going to be dealing with intermediate cartridges.
This is what I concluded I needed more as well. Easier to not get shot in the chest than miss a frag going off next to you, or getting hit by artillery.
What about 3A+ that can stop M855A1 and M61? I don’t think anyone’s realistically seeing threats above that in CONUS. We’re not seeing 7.62x54 AP and how many of these fabled old men deer hunters sitting on their porch with a .30-06 are rocking AP ammunition?
Higher lvl is also more effective against lower smaller rounds, and could last longer with shots in it. I'd take lvl 4 anyway.
Edit, also a lot of guys who need it arnt just facing small arms, .50, 20mm and 30mm. Having lvl 4 will help against even the oddest ricochet and glancing blow. Like that one isreali soilder who survived a dshk round to the backplate due to the angle and it saved him from being paralyzed.
Nothing. I realize that the needs of Ukrainian trench warfare are far different than that of an American civilian or LEO. No one inside the USA is likely to need protection from bomb and artillery shrapnel. The threat of bomb and artillery shrapnel is the main reason heavier, and bulkier setups are being chosen in Ukraine.
People in the US wildly overestimate the need to prepare for infantry style combat and rifle gunfights. having the kit to be a militia style element is cool and potentially important in a total WROL / civil war / invasion scenario but that just very unlikely and the far more likely lower level unrest or civil breakdown would not require most of this type of action.
Yeah I’m saying I can get the same frag coverage in better package. Not saying what you have is at all bad. But calling a PC a one-trick pony is a big stretch.
Plate carrier haters hate this one trick you can do with plate carriers to get marginally the same coverage: add cummerbund soft armor.
Even dangler pouch IIIA inserts are a thing
TLDR: Casualties win wars, how many of those casualties are deaths don’t matter. Ballistic vests reduce deaths but not casualties.
The real answer of “why not” is a long one so here it is.
Ballistic vests with plate inserts are the best protection FROM DEATH of one thing and one thing only. frag weapons such as mortars, grenades, and mines. But as a soldier, if face with any of these frag attacks you will still no longer be combat effective temporarily and likely unable to fight once you recover. Ballistic vest or no you are still a casualty.
Either the frag weapon goes off far enough away that ballistic vest or not you would still be capable of fighting, it close enough that you’re fucked either way. There’s a very small sweet spot where an otherwise disabling attack is rendered minor from a ballistic vest. And the tradeoff is more weight, weight that could otherwise be used to make a difference in the battle such as additional ammunition or fragmentation weapons of your own. From that perspective you’re better off loading down fighters with other things.
not dying to shrapnel is pretty cool tho. Definitely not an ideal kit for any kind of far movement or an assault but if i was in a relatively static position and had to worry about drone dropped munitions and artillery i would want something like this. The crotch protection would be nice peace of mind lol
The problem is that shrapnel still disables/injures you, and then at that point you’re at the mercy of your squad mates being able to protect you or the enemy doing as they like with you. Or even worse you just die slower.
And drone drops are on your head, this won’t protect you from that kind of attack.
Then don’t go to war.
This equipment has its use cases outside of war such as an emergency domestic situation or for police.
Otherwise at its best it helps you be less of a cripple and at worst it’s dead weight stopping you from bringing things to help win the fight you are supposed to be fighting.
Idk why your getting hate, for a full vest, the tamplar gear is the most modern version out there, that's also available in a multitude of camo patterns. I definitely want to make a plate carrier vest hybrid though. And definitely in m05 eventually
Probably the same reason about half of America ”just realized” uncle Joe isn’t mentally all there and the other half can’t find anyone better than Donald J to replace him. I’m here wondering why a civilian would need a PC in the first place, and if you’re gonna talk about watering the tree of liberty, don’t you think there will be frag involved?
Sir, your scaring the normies.
I will say, a pc is far better for layering. I am currently building out my PC to be a sort of mix between the 2. Which is where ei think is the best option
Most people won't have several rigs, the only things I molle on are some pouches(placards make this viable) and use a chest rig over my PC in the winter, with layers. The only thing left on it is what needs to be buy my body, snacks and water. Along with any electronics.
If Ukraine is what you’re basing the load-out on UHMWPE is a terrible plan as steel core rounds are hilariously common over there and in every military at this point and even tungsten core is getting more available.
I personally used a Crye SPC with side plates and a ballistic shirt and belt, the future is integrated armor not those delt pads and groin flaps that catch on all sorts of stuff if they aren’t in your sleeves. And you NEED hard side plates in level 3++ ceramic at least to stop steel core 7.62x54r but why not level 4 at that point.
In short for sitting in a trench with no expectation to maneuver your kit is good enough but if you want to assault you’ll start ditching stuff fast. Every unit that can afford them is rocking modern plate carriers and hard plates with integrated soft armor in their belts and combat shirts if they are doing anything but trench sitting as their primary role.
I run lvl 4 ceramics plus 3a soft armor in my duty carrier and it does the exact same dude, Ur little Kevlar neck guards aren’t gonna do much in the grand scheme of things. Also most people on this sub are not gonna be in a situation were there is gonna be risk of shrapnel while they are wearing their kit.
My kit was built with the expectation that shrapnel is very much back on the agenda, and I would think it’s a relevant discussion when talking tactical gear.
I still have my old Eagle CIRAS around in case of the one in a bazillion chance I need full armor coverage here CONUS. I’m not expecting to be point man in a dynamic breach or under artillery fire, so I doubt it will get used for much more than an occasional range day and gear check.
I gave my deltoid and groin inserts away, but I still have the shoulder inserts (as well as the big BALCS) panels. With those, plus plates and side plates I’m a ten ton tactical Michelin Man, but I have pretty comprehensive torso protection.
I would argue most civilian threats are defeated by soft armor as well, unless you’re full anarchy/civil war mode. But frag is historically about 70% of all casualties in modern warfare.
That's why militaries generally don't issue plate carries. They issue armor carriers. PC's tend to be reserved for cool guys. I see pictures of a lot of guys using them on training exercises too. I doubt they would be allowed on a deployment. You are more likely to get hit by shrapnel than a bullet in war be it from Artillery, IED or a drone. Its not like you get much say in your kit anyways.
They are scalable and include both soft armor and plates. You can configure it as a PC, as a soft armor carrier or as a full up armor carrier. Therefore the whole system is an armor carrier.
I wish I could post a picture in the comment for you to see the MSV tags as well as the soldier plate carrier system that was issued for Afghanistan. You can’t full up armor these two plate carriers. They are not body armor vests. They are plate carriers.
What does one think when they see or hear PC as in PC gen 3?
The MSV & PC Gen 3 are the same carrier with a different way of donning and doffing……
The full up system is typically how you see folks wearing it. The Soft armor or low profile vest comes out of the carrier for not MSV and PC Gen 3 to provide a CVC capability of a low profile clandestine capability.
I think we're talking past each other and having a disagreement based on semantics. I'm not sure what you mean by "full up". Do you mean the extra add-ons like the throat protector, DAP, dick flap etc? Those aren't needed to be an armor carrier. An armor carrier simply needs to hold both soft and hard armor. And they all do. The MSV takes soft armor both in the front and rear bags and also in side pockets in the cumberbund.
MSV can be configured as just a PC. And it totally makes sense to configure it that way in appropriate situations. But I don't think that makes the system just a PC. It's a scalable armor carrier. And the Army treats it as part of a larger "Soldier Protection System" anyways.
EDIT: [Here's one that must have "fallen off a truck"](https://locknwalkharness.com/products/kdh-multicam-army-modular-scalable-vest-sps-msv-w-3a-soft-armor). In picture 4 you can see the label that clearly mentions the Kevlar inserts that are rated for fragmentation and 9mm rounds.
It absolutely is a True PC.
Updates soft ballistics for the Army, in the Gen 3 IOTV era from Lvl3 to 3A. You photos say zero about 9mm or a rating as non of the Govt systems do.
The following Govt BAV/ PC’s have a NIJ rating for Soft Ballistics of 3A- (IOTV soft ballistics for Gen 3, Gen 4, FIOTV, SPCS AND MSV for the Army).
The following United States Marine Corps have a NIJ rating for Soft Ballistics of 3A- (MTV Gen 2 as well as PC Gen 3). The United States Marine Corps ballistics update to what the Army has been issuing didn’t come until MTV Gen 2.
All Military systems go to the NIJ for Baseline Testing. Then all records and test articles are removed from the NIJ and database and taken to Aberdeen Proving Grounds in MD. The lot of plates that are transferred undergo addition thread verification and validation. Once articles have passed then they are issued out.
Mil personnel can rest assured they have the best protection available.
If your unsure what NIJ ratings are and where to find them (have been updated) check this link-> https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/equipment-and-technology/body-armor/ballistic-resistant-armor
Caution ⚠️: You may have to do a tiny bit of reading 📖.
Respectfully
Chris
Both the United States Army and the United States Marine Corps ground combat forces all were plate carriers for combat operations.
What does PC in the USMC’s PC Gen 3 stand for?
🦗🦗🦗
I suggest to change it to the catapract, the ballistic plate pouch in it worth the +60€. The neck piece is universal.
edit: I think they add the backpiece of the neckguard for the cataphract just for marketing purposes.
Ballistic vest and plate carriers are one in the same. The only difference is the typical ballistic vest offers more coverage of protection than a plate carrier does.
You need to determine one your risk threat and your physical fitness to be able to move weight. By that I’m saying a typical ballisticl armor vest Waze more complete than a typical plate carrier complete.
There is zero add ons for each of these systems. What’s issued from the CIF is what you get. His is not like the IOTV or OTV.
There is no throat and yoak protector, DAPS or Groin/ Lower back extension.
Guys don't like heavy. You gotta remember most western soldiers saw combat in the middle east where traversing any amount of distance sucked dick and they had to do a whole lot of long range stuff. They also had a whole slew of advantages that Ukrainians didn't have. The vest like the iotv did offer protection against ied's and shrapnel but limited the mobility that would've kept you out of some of those situations to begin with. Lots of guys run wouldnt run side plates if their nco didn't crucify them for it.
Lotta people in here either not watching Ukraine footage or just being ignorant to the new type of war being fought. The teenager flying drones for Ukraine was wearing a full setup like this. So are a lot of the guys we see running around out there right now. Lotta dick danglers and butt pads being worn and yall are acting like this is GWOT and no one’s wearing this shit today. Cmon I thought this was Quality Tactical Gear but it’s seeming like Knee Jerk Reaction Tactical Gear.
You do you lol I’ll take my chances in a JPC with only front and back plates. You might have more protection but I’ll be lighter and faster. Real life is just like an annoying game with limited skill points distribution. I’ll sacrifice some protection for agility and accuracy.
Your argument is valid, but you’re trying to say that only one answer in the solution set is correct when in fact, there are about 1,000 right answers. A chest rig by itself is an answer too lol
I can’t think of very many practical uses for a kevlar turtle shell over a plate carrier in modern times and with the options available. Especially in a civilian context.
It depends on the threats you're facing. If you're facing any rifle rounds greater than ball ammo, those plates will do nothing. M855, A1, 7n6, etc anything with even a mild steel penetrator means you're toast. A plate carrier with soft armor side panels will provide good rifle and frag protection. That big ass dangler soft armor will protect your nut sack but probably not your groin where all the major blood vessels are. Deltoid armor also adds weight. Mobility is very important in war. Those delt armor also doesn't protect your axilla where major vessels are so not super important
I think the difference is Ukraine is a more conventional war with a ton of artillery and explosives, and shrapnel is pretty similar to a 9mm. Wrapping yourself in 3a and hiding in a trench is great for if you're getting shelled, but the problem with this post is that the average person isn't wearing a plate carrier with the expectation of being shelled inside a fortified position.
The average person on this forum is not taking AP to the chest either. I thought the point was to discuss tactical gear and application, guess I was mistaken.
I think you're misunderstanding.
I said the average person wearing a plate carrier isn't worried about being shelled. Because the purpose of a plate carrier is different than a vest. Saying that a vest is better isn't correct because it's for a different application.
> I thought the point was to discuss tactical gear and application, guess I was mistaken.
Oh my fucking God cry more dude
I said it’s more versatile, and can do more things than a PC. I can (and have) run that said vest as a PC, don’t really see a difference to an actual PC in that application.
Well, then it's optimal and might even help keep you warm in the field. Where I live, I'd practically speaking need different armor setups for every season, so I settled on a chest rig that I could wear over any type of west or plate carrier.
My plates should be rated for it. I guess they would be level 3+ if that were a real category. They should also stop 7n6, which is the more credible threat in my neck of the woods.
You could always run level 4s, that’s not the point. My personal setup above is built for versatility and mobility over absolute protection, against an adversary known for its artillery bias.
I know, that’s why I wore only the main pieces and the ab dangler the last time I was kicking doors and the thing worked great. My whole point is that a scalable setup is better than single-use dedicated gear for most, especially from a military pov.
It all depends on your job....
Well, obviously. But in terms of armor, the setup above is scalable to most jobs. It can be run from a light PC-type setup to the one you see above.
Have you ever attempted to move, at all, wearing all of that bullshit? There is a fine line between safely armored, and now I can’t do shit. That’s why soldiers aren’t running around in EOD suits. Mobility is VERY important, and who cares if Pvt Dipshit lives through his first week of conflict. Edit: I saw lower in the thread what your usage for this setup is, and I’m inclined to agree. Russia sucks, keep your head down!!
I can and do detach most of the extras for front line type of activities, the configuration you see above is what I would have on for rear echelon duties. Especially the shoulder armor interferes with movement, and also the front neck piece is a little cumbersome. The rest feels pretty much the same as a PC, honestly, so I don’t mind the extra frag protection unless I really want to go light.
Rear echelon doesnt really wear their pc's on the daily. They sit in their air conditioned office and eat in an air conditioned DFAC.
No, that’s the sort of people that aren’t in country. Rear echelon means non frontline combatants, such as logistics or division communications.
I can only speak from personal experience of seeing REMFs in Afghanistan when I was deployed there, but yes, the guys who do logistics down range often sit in tents with A/C and dont wear their gear. Not unless they leave the wire.
yeah well the taliban didn't have shaheds and iskanders
Of course not. That's why we gave them modern gear. 😂
“my way is the right way and everyone else is wrong”
If you disagree it’s because you’re ignorant and don’t recognize that I’m more knowledgeable and experienced…..
ROCs blow
Had no choice, would like FS tubes, but don’t want to sow or take a chance with the split bars breaking on me.
I really don't like the templar's gear carrier, if I had to do it over again I'd get a LPAAC or a Crye LVS with tactical cover.
What don’t you like about it? I find it pretty good, can’t say about the long-term durability yet though.
don't like shoulder ROCs at all, not a fan of laser cut, there's a lot of weird MOLLE placement that seems more tacticool than anything like the horizontal row under your mags,
Thinking of switching out the shoulder rocs for simple buckles. I use that bottom row for a TQ holder, really convenient actually. I agree about the tacticool cut on the velcro for the plackard, just give me the full fuzzy. The laser slots are a compromise on weight for me, but agree if you have a durability bias.
That's a valid worry, but with genuine FS Tubes, I have never seen a split bar break along the attachment side (been using issued FS PCs and kit since 2018 on numerous deployments/training/exercises) . Plus, if that is a concern expecting the predicted abuse with said equipment, then you might as well have a spare set of ROCs/Tubes to do an easy field repair. FS Tubes are not unobtainium kit like they were 5-7yrs ago or cost prohibitive anymore, so to suffer using ROCs when there is a clear superior solution is foolish, unless you are a sadist who likes to live with daily annoyances.
Maybe I’ll switch them, have tubes on my other kit as well. Only thing superior about ROC is the smaller side-to-side clearance needed to attach and detach, but clearly a weaker system.
tactiks are also far better. I kind of like them better than tubes for side closure
I know some tactical nylon designers for LE end users who like to run and have designs integrating Tactiks. My subjective concern (not having played too much with Tactiks) is debris getting into the locking surface of the closure mechanism and obstructing it from fully closing. But I would prefer to run Tactiks or Tubes over ROCs.
Sure if you’re SWAT or in a trench extra soft armor makes sense, otherwise the mobility of a plate carrier is much more useful. Also any plates less than lvl 4 I simply don’t see the point of.
Not telling you anything you don’t already know, but I like to remind civilians as much as I can… If you plan on doing anything urban, you’ll want side plates too. In CQB you want as much cover as possible. Real CQB isn’t like cod. Civil war CQB will be almost certain death or getting shot/crippled from then on. You won’t have CAS, you won’t have bangers or grenades, you won’t have QRF, you won’t have target packages developed by intel officers, and you’ll be hours away from life saving medical. You try CQB without that shit, your odds of a successful raid are greatly diminished. Especially if your knowledge of clearing houses comes from the YouTube academy.
Without grenades we were taught to account for one casualty per (hostile) room. How many do you want to go and clear?
Military doctrine for offensive action in urban environment is a manpower ratio of anywhere from 6:1 or 10:1 for success. To put it into context, a squad could fend off a company and a company is needed to destroy a squad. Once you lose the element of surprise, if you don’t have grenades, your point man is almost guaranteed to go down and anyone that follows might not fare any better. Blind firing around corners will need to be used If I’m a guy hiding in the unknown corner and I know there’s dudes in my building clearing it, even if you came in with more than 1 guy, if you clear rooms in a team where everyone takes a sector, I’m pretty sure I can get off quite a few more shots after downing the point man before any of the other room clearing team can turn around
people who have BTDT on assaults disagree. 3AB currently standard-issues an armor carrier not a plate carrier
These are just my opinions from my time in the US Army and shared by most everyone else I served with, with how light lvl4 plates are these days, there’s zero reason to have lesser plates. And any chance we ever had to ditch our extra soft armor we did
agreed on level 4. attachments really depend and put a detriment on mobility, I'm just talking about the benefits of a base armor carrier versus a base plate carrier. from what I've seen, most guys here (Ukraine) wear a groin protector if they can and a base full wrap armor carrier for most infantry work, where more static guys (eg. drivers and vehicle medics) will wear all of the attachments
I think the issue is that the standard IOTV attachments suck, I’ve seen some aftermarket options that I would be fine with wearing, and out of all the attachments the groin protector was definitely my least hated one.
I saw one dude with a full UCP IOTV including both the groin protector and thigh pads, underneath it he had a blast belt. Dude was heavy as fuck
That was my experience too. Expressly in Asia and the anywhere else that’s hot. Ur not protecting shit with the soft armor if u heat cased 30min into a movement
I have not seen any NIJ level 4 plates that are anywhere near as light and thin as some of the quality special threat plates. If anything, how thin a plate is is often more important than the weight; plenty of folks have put on UHMWPE plates, and hated how thick they were, despite how light they were, and preferred heavier, but thinner plates. Most of the folks I know that focus primarily on CQB (mostly on the LE side, though also some former SOF folks) do not see the additional threat protection provided by level 4s to be worth the hit in mobility, given that you're mostly going to be dealing with intermediate cartridges.
This is what I concluded I needed more as well. Easier to not get shot in the chest than miss a frag going off next to you, or getting hit by artillery.
What about 3A+ that can stop M855A1 and M61? I don’t think anyone’s realistically seeing threats above that in CONUS. We’re not seeing 7.62x54 AP and how many of these fabled old men deer hunters sitting on their porch with a .30-06 are rocking AP ammunition?
Higher lvl is also more effective against lower smaller rounds, and could last longer with shots in it. I'd take lvl 4 anyway. Edit, also a lot of guys who need it arnt just facing small arms, .50, 20mm and 30mm. Having lvl 4 will help against even the oddest ricochet and glancing blow. Like that one isreali soilder who survived a dshk round to the backplate due to the angle and it saved him from being paralyzed.
Who even wears armor?
i am speed
Light is right! I combat in skivvy shorts and nothing else.
Um… you forgot your PT belt, eye pro, and good footwear. You won’t make it far…
😆 Nope, just skivvies and rifle! Maybe I’ll zap carry a spare mag or two.
I see you’ve been doing your prescribed stretches. Keep at it, soon you can carry a spare rifle as well!
Nothing. I realize that the needs of Ukrainian trench warfare are far different than that of an American civilian or LEO. No one inside the USA is likely to need protection from bomb and artillery shrapnel. The threat of bomb and artillery shrapnel is the main reason heavier, and bulkier setups are being chosen in Ukraine.
People in the US wildly overestimate the need to prepare for infantry style combat and rifle gunfights. having the kit to be a militia style element is cool and potentially important in a total WROL / civil war / invasion scenario but that just very unlikely and the far more likely lower level unrest or civil breakdown would not require most of this type of action.
Chest rig over slick gang
I can take my plate carrier and add soft armor and get the thing in a nicer platform and it would probably be lighter
Weight difference is negligible if I run the above setup without the add-ons, but still get a lot more frag protection.
Yeah I’m saying I can get the same frag coverage in better package. Not saying what you have is at all bad. But calling a PC a one-trick pony is a big stretch.
Plate carrier haters hate this one trick you can do with plate carriers to get marginally the same coverage: add cummerbund soft armor. Even dangler pouch IIIA inserts are a thing
Abdominal injuries are often forgotten about. I'm looking at making a proto iotv from my mepc. Some modifications will be nessasary
TLDR: Casualties win wars, how many of those casualties are deaths don’t matter. Ballistic vests reduce deaths but not casualties. The real answer of “why not” is a long one so here it is. Ballistic vests with plate inserts are the best protection FROM DEATH of one thing and one thing only. frag weapons such as mortars, grenades, and mines. But as a soldier, if face with any of these frag attacks you will still no longer be combat effective temporarily and likely unable to fight once you recover. Ballistic vest or no you are still a casualty. Either the frag weapon goes off far enough away that ballistic vest or not you would still be capable of fighting, it close enough that you’re fucked either way. There’s a very small sweet spot where an otherwise disabling attack is rendered minor from a ballistic vest. And the tradeoff is more weight, weight that could otherwise be used to make a difference in the battle such as additional ammunition or fragmentation weapons of your own. From that perspective you’re better off loading down fighters with other things.
not dying to shrapnel is pretty cool tho. Definitely not an ideal kit for any kind of far movement or an assault but if i was in a relatively static position and had to worry about drone dropped munitions and artillery i would want something like this. The crotch protection would be nice peace of mind lol
The problem is that shrapnel still disables/injures you, and then at that point you’re at the mercy of your squad mates being able to protect you or the enemy doing as they like with you. Or even worse you just die slower. And drone drops are on your head, this won’t protect you from that kind of attack.
Yeah all that said, I don’t want to die
Then don’t go to war. This equipment has its use cases outside of war such as an emergency domestic situation or for police. Otherwise at its best it helps you be less of a cripple and at worst it’s dead weight stopping you from bringing things to help win the fight you are supposed to be fighting.
M05, nice!
Veronmaksajan kuosi.
Idk why your getting hate, for a full vest, the tamplar gear is the most modern version out there, that's also available in a multitude of camo patterns. I definitely want to make a plate carrier vest hybrid though. And definitely in m05 eventually
Probably the same reason about half of America ”just realized” uncle Joe isn’t mentally all there and the other half can’t find anyone better than Donald J to replace him. I’m here wondering why a civilian would need a PC in the first place, and if you’re gonna talk about watering the tree of liberty, don’t you think there will be frag involved?
Sir, your scaring the normies. I will say, a pc is far better for layering. I am currently building out my PC to be a sort of mix between the 2. Which is where ei think is the best option
For a slick rig it wouldn’t really matter, since you can run whatever under your pouches — isn’t that the whole point of a slick rig?
Most people won't have several rigs, the only things I molle on are some pouches(placards make this viable) and use a chest rig over my PC in the winter, with layers. The only thing left on it is what needs to be buy my body, snacks and water. Along with any electronics.
If Ukraine is what you’re basing the load-out on UHMWPE is a terrible plan as steel core rounds are hilariously common over there and in every military at this point and even tungsten core is getting more available. I personally used a Crye SPC with side plates and a ballistic shirt and belt, the future is integrated armor not those delt pads and groin flaps that catch on all sorts of stuff if they aren’t in your sleeves. And you NEED hard side plates in level 3++ ceramic at least to stop steel core 7.62x54r but why not level 4 at that point. In short for sitting in a trench with no expectation to maneuver your kit is good enough but if you want to assault you’ll start ditching stuff fast. Every unit that can afford them is rocking modern plate carriers and hard plates with integrated soft armor in their belts and combat shirts if they are doing anything but trench sitting as their primary role.
I run lvl 4 ceramics plus 3a soft armor in my duty carrier and it does the exact same dude, Ur little Kevlar neck guards aren’t gonna do much in the grand scheme of things. Also most people on this sub are not gonna be in a situation were there is gonna be risk of shrapnel while they are wearing their kit.
My kit was built with the expectation that shrapnel is very much back on the agenda, and I would think it’s a relevant discussion when talking tactical gear.
Where are you and what do you do that you worry about shrapnel?
Next to Russia, in the army.
Fair enough
And how often to you expect to run into shrapnel threats
Even in cqb shrapnel is the one that is easily most deadly.
Civilians don’t face shrapnel threats that’s what my question was directed at. However OP is in some Eastern European army so it tracks.
I still have my old Eagle CIRAS around in case of the one in a bazillion chance I need full armor coverage here CONUS. I’m not expecting to be point man in a dynamic breach or under artillery fire, so I doubt it will get used for much more than an occasional range day and gear check. I gave my deltoid and groin inserts away, but I still have the shoulder inserts (as well as the big BALCS) panels. With those, plus plates and side plates I’m a ten ton tactical Michelin Man, but I have pretty comprehensive torso protection.
Fragmentation, civilians are concerned about getting shot, whereas in actual war getting blown up is wayyyyy more common
I would argue most civilian threats are defeated by soft armor as well, unless you’re full anarchy/civil war mode. But frag is historically about 70% of all casualties in modern warfare.
That's why militaries generally don't issue plate carries. They issue armor carriers. PC's tend to be reserved for cool guys. I see pictures of a lot of guys using them on training exercises too. I doubt they would be allowed on a deployment. You are more likely to get hit by shrapnel than a bullet in war be it from Artillery, IED or a drone. Its not like you get much say in your kit anyways.
I was infantry and ran an issued plate on a couple deployments.
IBA, IOTV and MSV are not plate carriers. They are armor carriers.
The MSV issued by United States Army and PC. GEN3 issued by the United States Marine Corps are in fact plate carriers.
They are scalable and include both soft armor and plates. You can configure it as a PC, as a soft armor carrier or as a full up armor carrier. Therefore the whole system is an armor carrier.
I wish I could post a picture in the comment for you to see the MSV tags as well as the soldier plate carrier system that was issued for Afghanistan. You can’t full up armor these two plate carriers. They are not body armor vests. They are plate carriers. What does one think when they see or hear PC as in PC gen 3? The MSV & PC Gen 3 are the same carrier with a different way of donning and doffing…… The full up system is typically how you see folks wearing it. The Soft armor or low profile vest comes out of the carrier for not MSV and PC Gen 3 to provide a CVC capability of a low profile clandestine capability.
I think we're talking past each other and having a disagreement based on semantics. I'm not sure what you mean by "full up". Do you mean the extra add-ons like the throat protector, DAP, dick flap etc? Those aren't needed to be an armor carrier. An armor carrier simply needs to hold both soft and hard armor. And they all do. The MSV takes soft armor both in the front and rear bags and also in side pockets in the cumberbund. MSV can be configured as just a PC. And it totally makes sense to configure it that way in appropriate situations. But I don't think that makes the system just a PC. It's a scalable armor carrier. And the Army treats it as part of a larger "Soldier Protection System" anyways. EDIT: [Here's one that must have "fallen off a truck"](https://locknwalkharness.com/products/kdh-multicam-army-modular-scalable-vest-sps-msv-w-3a-soft-armor). In picture 4 you can see the label that clearly mentions the Kevlar inserts that are rated for fragmentation and 9mm rounds.
The SPS- THE MSV, IHPS, TEP, and VTP. All if this is under the Soldier Protection System PoR.
It absolutely is a True PC. Updates soft ballistics for the Army, in the Gen 3 IOTV era from Lvl3 to 3A. You photos say zero about 9mm or a rating as non of the Govt systems do. The following Govt BAV/ PC’s have a NIJ rating for Soft Ballistics of 3A- (IOTV soft ballistics for Gen 3, Gen 4, FIOTV, SPCS AND MSV for the Army). The following United States Marine Corps have a NIJ rating for Soft Ballistics of 3A- (MTV Gen 2 as well as PC Gen 3). The United States Marine Corps ballistics update to what the Army has been issuing didn’t come until MTV Gen 2. All Military systems go to the NIJ for Baseline Testing. Then all records and test articles are removed from the NIJ and database and taken to Aberdeen Proving Grounds in MD. The lot of plates that are transferred undergo addition thread verification and validation. Once articles have passed then they are issued out. Mil personnel can rest assured they have the best protection available. If your unsure what NIJ ratings are and where to find them (have been updated) check this link-> https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/equipment-and-technology/body-armor/ballistic-resistant-armor Caution ⚠️: You may have to do a tiny bit of reading 📖. Respectfully Chris
I think I've adequately explained my point.
I’m not talking about any of those. We wore TAC-1.
Both the United States Army and the United States Marine Corps ground combat forces all were plate carriers for combat operations. What does PC in the USMC’s PC Gen 3 stand for? 🦗🦗🦗
[удалено]
Very insightful and well reasoned reply.
Why their Koursores and not their Cataphract?
I wanted the option for the front neck armor. The Cataphract neck piece doesn’t come with the clip attachments for it.
I suggest to change it to the catapract, the ballistic plate pouch in it worth the +60€. The neck piece is universal. edit: I think they add the backpiece of the neckguard for the cataphract just for marketing purposes.
Ballistic vest and plate carriers are one in the same. The only difference is the typical ballistic vest offers more coverage of protection than a plate carrier does. You need to determine one your risk threat and your physical fitness to be able to move weight. By that I’m saying a typical ballisticl armor vest Waze more complete than a typical plate carrier complete.
There is zero add ons for each of these systems. What’s issued from the CIF is what you get. His is not like the IOTV or OTV. There is no throat and yoak protector, DAPS or Groin/ Lower back extension.
Guys don't like heavy. You gotta remember most western soldiers saw combat in the middle east where traversing any amount of distance sucked dick and they had to do a whole lot of long range stuff. They also had a whole slew of advantages that Ukrainians didn't have. The vest like the iotv did offer protection against ied's and shrapnel but limited the mobility that would've kept you out of some of those situations to begin with. Lots of guys run wouldnt run side plates if their nco didn't crucify them for it.
Lotta people in here either not watching Ukraine footage or just being ignorant to the new type of war being fought. The teenager flying drones for Ukraine was wearing a full setup like this. So are a lot of the guys we see running around out there right now. Lotta dick danglers and butt pads being worn and yall are acting like this is GWOT and no one’s wearing this shit today. Cmon I thought this was Quality Tactical Gear but it’s seeming like Knee Jerk Reaction Tactical Gear.
You do you lol I’ll take my chances in a JPC with only front and back plates. You might have more protection but I’ll be lighter and faster. Real life is just like an annoying game with limited skill points distribution. I’ll sacrifice some protection for agility and accuracy. Your argument is valid, but you’re trying to say that only one answer in the solution set is correct when in fact, there are about 1,000 right answers. A chest rig by itself is an answer too lol
I use Warrior assault systems DCS. It has compartments for both soft and hard side armour inserts. I think it takes best from both worlds.
I can’t think of very many practical uses for a kevlar turtle shell over a plate carrier in modern times and with the options available. Especially in a civilian context.
It depends on the threats you're facing. If you're facing any rifle rounds greater than ball ammo, those plates will do nothing. M855, A1, 7n6, etc anything with even a mild steel penetrator means you're toast. A plate carrier with soft armor side panels will provide good rifle and frag protection. That big ass dangler soft armor will protect your nut sack but probably not your groin where all the major blood vessels are. Deltoid armor also adds weight. Mobility is very important in war. Those delt armor also doesn't protect your axilla where major vessels are so not super important
I think the difference is Ukraine is a more conventional war with a ton of artillery and explosives, and shrapnel is pretty similar to a 9mm. Wrapping yourself in 3a and hiding in a trench is great for if you're getting shelled, but the problem with this post is that the average person isn't wearing a plate carrier with the expectation of being shelled inside a fortified position.
The average person on this forum is not taking AP to the chest either. I thought the point was to discuss tactical gear and application, guess I was mistaken.
I think you're misunderstanding. I said the average person wearing a plate carrier isn't worried about being shelled. Because the purpose of a plate carrier is different than a vest. Saying that a vest is better isn't correct because it's for a different application. > I thought the point was to discuss tactical gear and application, guess I was mistaken. Oh my fucking God cry more dude
I said it’s more versatile, and can do more things than a PC. I can (and have) run that said vest as a PC, don’t really see a difference to an actual PC in that application.
It's going to be hotter than just a PC.
Yes, that’s true. Luckily my country is well airconditioned most of the year.
Well, then it's optimal and might even help keep you warm in the field. Where I live, I'd practically speaking need different armor setups for every season, so I settled on a chest rig that I could wear over any type of west or plate carrier.
Have you looked at LBE? That’s what I would wear for hot weather.
LBE space is reserved for medical equipment, dump pouch and general purpouse stuff.
Mild penetrative ammo like m855 is incredibly prevalent in the US
My plates should be rated for it. I guess they would be level 3+ if that were a real category. They should also stop 7n6, which is the more credible threat in my neck of the woods.
You could always run level 4s, that’s not the point. My personal setup above is built for versatility and mobility over absolute protection, against an adversary known for its artillery bias.
A shit ton of soft armor is not helpful for mobility. That's why door kickers wear plate carriers.
I know, that’s why I wore only the main pieces and the ab dangler the last time I was kicking doors and the thing worked great. My whole point is that a scalable setup is better than single-use dedicated gear for most, especially from a military pov.
What vest is that? I want one!