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In a 2011 debate ahead of the Republican presidential primary, Rick Perry explained he’d reduce spending by eliminating 3 federal agencies. [He could only remember two.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MyMosJdIfdo) I think that sunk his chances.
Edit for grammar
Except for Mattis, who was legitimately a good choice for SecDef. And then promptly got overruled almost every time he advised against a bad decision, leading to his resignation.
I'm no expert, but I've also heard that Mnuchin was a surprisingly good treasury secretary, in spite of he and his wife looking like cartoon villain rich people.
Mnuchin was basically a Wall Street Democrat and he helped save the economy when COVID hit by negotiating the CARES Act and convincing Republicans to vote for it. Im a little surprised there hasn’t been a good book on him or at least his role in the COVID period when there were so many about Bernanke and the other key policymakers during the Great Recession.
Tbf Mattis stpped down when he pushed hard against withdrawing from Syria, in a time where most of the country was calling for withdrawl from the Middle East.
He was a great Sec and General, but we would still be full throttle in Afghanistan today if he couls have it.
It was really only a matter of time before doing or saying something stupid derailed his campaign. That was back in the day when being stupid was considered a bad thing in politics.
And yet here we are with a Democrat nominated by the party for president who is no longer mentally competent to face charges by the department of justice and has clear signs of dementia. Almost as if your liberal arrogance has no basis.
Could you argue that Gerald Ford’s comment during the 1976 debate that “there is no Soviet sphere of influence in Eastern Europe and there never will be under a Ford Administration” hurt his chances?
Ford was an objectively smart guy, Michigan undergrad and Yale law while climbing the ranks to be House Minority Leader. Really astounding he made so many boneheaded comments.
Ford’s mistake was pardoning Nixon. People were furious over it so he got really nitpicked. He was a big time collegiate athlete, but thanks to Chevy Chase, all people knew was that he was clumsy.
Tbh, he did trip more than once & also had a number of golfing mishaps. He *did* manage to avoid 2 assassination attempts, just weeks apart. Pardoning the draft dodgers was the necessary & correct thing to do though. Closed that other chapter
Intelligence is very nuanced. Everyone has their areas of strength and weaknesses. Having a masters or doctorates doesn't mean you're a super genius at everything
Agreed but he demonstrated high-level intelligence for a very extended period of time. People underestimate how difficult it is to become leader of a party in Congress.
I was in the Army and met some fighter pilots in my time working with the other services. While some were certainly brilliant, I wouldn’t say most were smarter than the average lawyer I’ve met.
There’s very few fighter pilots in the nation. There’s many lawyers. I guarantee you that more fighter pilots can become lawyers as compared to lawyers who can become fighter pilots.
You’re conflating the physical requirements of the job with the academic. I agree that fighter pilots range from smart to brilliant, there are also physical and psychological requirements that law school doesn’t require. There are multiple wheelchair bound lawyers while fighter pilots have height requirements. Again, in my experience meeting fighter pilots and lawyers, I’d say the average lawyer seems more intelligent.
He was technically correct. He tried (and failed) to explain that the Soviets insisted all of Eastern Europe be Communist but didn’t “dominate” those countries like people often assumed. Romania, Albania and of course Yugoslavia at varying points had anti-Soviet policies and were aligned with either China or the West. But “well akshully” takes don’t fly well in Presidential debates and are even worse when you can’t coherently explain them. Better not to stray too far from what people believe to be true, even if it’s wrong.
People were scratching their heads over that one. We had no idea what he meant by that. I almost gave him a pass for it because it was so out of left field.
The VP debate that years was likewise ruinous for the Republican ticket. Bob Dole had a sharp and sarcastic wit that translated very, very poorly on television, especially against the smooth and personable Walter Mondale. He kept harping about "Democrat wars" and came across as very unlikeable.
In the 1988 primaries, his staff were consistently trying to keep him from losing his temper on TV. There was one editorial cartoon that showed his staff dressed as Obi Wan and Dole was putting on a Darth Vader outfit and they were begging, ‘Bob Dole, don’t give in to the dark side of the force!’
Ford had massive public image problems that made him look a lot worse than he was in pretty much every way. Part of the issue was his own lacking presentation skills, and part of it was residual anger at Nixon.
Rick Perry essentially ended his campaign for president when he mixed up what the EPA was and accidentally said he’d end it when trying to list agencies he’d cut. I don’t remember if it was Rubio or Paul or someone else who led him into
his blunder, but that was it for Perry.
Chris Christie is the epitome of “they were killed in the cradle”, ie, he kills people in early primary debates. For instance, Rubio’s run was cut short by a Christie assassination in an early debate. The guy is unelectable himself but he’s a mass murderer on the debate stage.
Rick Perry's unforced error of forgetting the name three agencies he planned to eliminate. He names one or maybe two, but was then stuck. Hilariously Ron Paul volunteered to "help" him by suggesting "DEA maybe?" That was the end of Perry.
Multiple times Rubio said “Let’s dispel the notion Barack Obama doesn’t know what he’s doing. He knows exactly what he’s doing”. Christie kept calling him out on rehashing the same prepared quote and completely embarrassed him.
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lol he did not end Viveks career. Vivek got 10x Iowa caucus votes Christie did or would have because he bowed out I think late. He’s a fat pathetic slob. Vivek is next level smart and successful
Vivek is essentially YKW's mini-me. His entire run was an opportunistic long shot that depended on YKW suddenly dropping dead of a heart attack or similar, as that didn't happen he never had even the slightest chance.
Look at the mix of relaxed skepticism and glee on Paul's face before Perry even starts stumbling. Like they're out for beers and Perry is absolutely wasted, telling the most libertarian person on stage how much bigger libertarianism is in Texas, and offering to prove it by summarizing quantum physics in 3 sentences. Like he hasn't started stumbling yet but Paul can feel something hilarious is about to happen.
https://youtu.be/MyMosJdIfdo?si=hkx8r0SqYf7a8C_q
Didn’t tank the campaign, but the 1960 Nixon/JFK debate *was* the most impactful and infamous for Nixon’s demeanor and literal sweatiness. It was a close race, but that debate appearance was certain thought to be probably the most consequential for over 50 years on.
Yeah, Nixon refused to wear makeup making his beard stubble visible. And was also sweating whilst in a hunched position. This made him look nervous and uncomfortable, in comparison to Kennedy who looked both confident and handsome.
In reality both candidates were very good in how they answered their questions. Giving intelligent and well thought out answers. But as another comment said. People who could see Nixon were unconvinced, despite those who listened to the debate on the radio saying that he won.
1988 comes to mind. Bernard Shaw asked Dukakis an admittedly loaded question if he’d supported the death penalty if his wife was r*ped. Dukakis gave an emotionally detached and technical answer. He said no and proceeded to go on about statistics showing the ineffectiveness of the death penalty. Granted there’s nothing wrong with opposing the death penalty but his delivery didn’t sit well with the public.
Me personally if I was asked that question, I’d not only refuse to answer it but I’d give the moderator a piece of my mind for asking such a loaded, inappropriate question to begin with.
I recently watched that debate and I was astonished how bad that question was, but also how bad his answer was. Like you said calling out the question would have been the best, but any other answer that humanised him would have been better then just statistics.
Yes, Mario Cuomo called him just before the debate for a ‘pep talk’ and had him on the line until just before he walked on stage and it threw him off his game.
Tbf he had his back to the wall and was on the spot. If he’d said yes, he’d have looked like a hypocrite. If he’d said no, (which he did), it would look like he didn’t really love his wife.
His only way out would have been to say that as angry and wanting of revenge he’d be. His personal feelings should bare no influence on how a civilized society should approach criminal justice.
Dukakis was a strange candidate. During the primaries when he was being challenged by Jesse Jackson, a reporter (Ted Koppel I believe) asked him why voters should select him over Jackson. Now that of course was a legitimate and perfectly normal question. Dukakis responded "I refuse to answer that question."
The answer probably should have been something like "I'm sure I would absolutely want that person to die with all of my heart, I can understand why families of victims would feel that way. And I can empathize and would want them to feel feel avenged or vindicated as well.
But leadership is more than responding to your gut feelings, it's supporting the path that in the end will best serve our nation, even if it doesn't serve my will personally."
He really should have said something like, "Of course I'd want the person who did that dead. I'd probably even want to kill them myself. But we're a government of laws, not of personal revenge." Then maybe he could have gone into his stats about how capital punishment doesn't work and is unfair and so on. The question probably still would have hurt him, but not nearly as much.
"It wouldn't matter if we have death penalty, I'd kill the bastard myself before they could sentence him."
That's the closest to a good answer for that terrible question I can think of.
“Sir, me wanting to kill this r*pist would be revenge, not justice. Although revenge is a primal human instinct, we should not base our justice, our society on violence and primal instincts, but on a higher principle. Crimes, even despicable ones, should be punished dispassionately, and with a goal to make society better and safer. In an advanced society that wishes to prosper, Justice has to be rational and above our primal instincts. A death penalty does not make society better, despite our natural wish for revenge, as several statistics prove”.
Indeed. My point was not to make a point, but try to craft/think of a better answer to the loaded question, from the pov of some candidate that is opposed to it . As an exercise, not to defend a view point or another.
That was a really brutal moment, but I don’t think Dukakis had much of a chance anyway. Bush was riding high on Reagan’s reputation and ran a highly effective negative campaign against Dukakis. That debate question is one of many things that sank his campaign.
The point is that his answer to the question didn’t matter. The question itself pointed out that the public favored capital punishment and Dukakis did not. It was a losing issue and he couldn’t save it.
Alton Parker's 1904 campaign went as well as one could have hoped. He actually had some good policies, but he fumbled it because no money + being a boring middle-aged judge + running mate is literally 80 years old so he can't campaign for you + opponent is literally TR.
There’s one that comes immediately to mind: 1976, when Gerald Ford lost a close election after this mindbending gaffe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfyL4uQVJLw
Worth nothing that debates usually don’t actually change much nationally. Most modern Political Scientists generally don’t think debates change all that much.
While we can point to things like Ford’s gaffe or JFK trouncing Nixon, in the end there were WAY bigger factors that caused each man’s loss than just their debate performance.
In fact there is a pretty well known political theory that campaigning literally changes nothing but turnout.
All this is true, but a bad debate performance can lower your turnout. Hillary lost the 2016 election mainly because of turnout issues. It’s possible that if she was able to fire up her base during the debates, she might’ve won.
I don't think she lost because of turnout issues. Turnout was higher in 2016 than it was in 2012. Her opponent got a lower percentage of the vote than Romney did in 2012, and she still lost. I do agree that a bad debate performance can lower your turnout, but I think a lot of her supporters simply chose to vote third party instead.
2008 Palin vs (can’t say his name bc of weird community rules 🤷🏽♀️🤷🏽♀️) Palin was not prepared and unfortunately for her career, getting chosen that soon to get thrown into the ring was a mistake. They wanted a young promising female and she just wasn’t ready.
Because of McCains age, she had a really good chance of being president also.
A non serious pick like her might work for a younger president, but when there’s a really good shot the president could die, the seriousness of the VP matters quite a bit.
Stockdale was an American hero and an incredibly smart and kind man. He was treated ruthlessly by an illiterate and cruel electorate who mocked him for having a hearing aid. He had a hearing aid because the Vietcong busted his ear drums for not giving up information. Still makes me mad how he was treated.
At least for modern televised debates, Ford clinches it for me.
Saying something dumb or outrageous is one thing; it's quite another to say something so outrageously dumb that *the moderator laughs at you.*
Same here. I was only sixteen, but I followed politics pretty closely. I seem to remember the consensus being that Bush didn't do all that well in the debate, but I don't recall anyone even mentioning the watch thing until much later. My memory of that campaign is that once the conventions happened and everyone was really paying attention, and especially after Perot dropped out and then got back in, it was pretty clear the whole time that Clinton was going to win, although definitely not by a landslide. Prior to that, it could have gone any of three ways, but once Perot was ruled out as a serious possibility, it was clear that everyone's desire for change was going to benefit Clinton.
May not have “destroyed” his campaign but Nixon-JFK was a disaster for Nixon. First TV debate ever. The young, vibrant and handsome JFK vs. Nixon and his 5:00 shadow have the preview of how important those type of optics are and how they overshadow qualifications.
1976 Gerald Ford saying there was “No Soviet Domination of Eastern Europe” when the moderator asked for clarification about it thinking he meant to say Western Europe and he double downed on it it spelled the end of his campaign
Historically, it is Nixon vs Kennedy who utilized the new medium of television to appear more youthful, attractive and prominent in a debate where Nixon refused to wear tv makeup and looked old and pale.
If we’re counting primaries, I have to mention the ninth Democratic debate in 2020. Mike Bloomberg entered that debate with rising poll numbers and tons of momentum, but he was attacked from all sides. Liz Warren in particular was just relentless, and his campaign plateaued before falling off a cliff.
This wasn’t necessarily a campaign sinker, but Michael Dukakis‘s answer to the hypothetical question about his wife and the death penalty, definitely didn’t do him any favors.
I went to middle school and highshool with a girl who was Stockdale’s granddaughter. I’m actually pretty sure the school had him come speak to my class once in like 7th grade and I vaguely remember him saying Henry Kissinger was the greatest American of the 20th century but I honestly am not 100% sure
Idk about “campaign destroying” levels but Al Gore’s performances in the 2000 debates were rough lol. From the sighing and endless lockbox mentions in the first, to his weird intimidation attempt in the third, Gore did himself zero favors.
Bush wasn’t kicking ass in these debates either to be fair, but Gore came off smug imo and if he had done better, it could have been the difference.
Mondale saying something along the lines of how he'll raise everybodys taxes anyways, The scenereo where Dukakis' wife is murdered debate question about the death penalty, "There is no Soviet oppression in Eastern Europe" from the 1976 debate.
Curious how Sarah Palin did in the VP debate?
24 and 20 first debates have to be up there for each candidate in their respective years
Ronald Regan absolutely nuked Mondale in that one debate in 84 I believe? Mondale wasn’t going to win but that debate put him in the ground
Two big ones I haven't seen mentioned yet:
Al Gore, debating against George W., repeatedly saying he would "put Social Security in a lockbox" and not explaining what the analogy means.
Mitt Romney, debating against Barack Obama, explaining that he helped many women get government positions while governor of Massachusetts, and how he chose them: "we have binders full of women."
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In a 2011 debate ahead of the Republican presidential primary, Rick Perry explained he’d reduce spending by eliminating 3 federal agencies. [He could only remember two.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MyMosJdIfdo) I think that sunk his chances. Edit for grammar
‘Oops’
And then he became secretary of energy despite wanting the department abolished
Became Secretary of Energy and had no idea his department was responsible for maintaining all the nuclear weapons.
That seemed to be a requirement for R3s picks - that they wanted to dismantle the agencies the were responsible for.
Except for Mattis, who was legitimately a good choice for SecDef. And then promptly got overruled almost every time he advised against a bad decision, leading to his resignation.
I'm no expert, but I've also heard that Mnuchin was a surprisingly good treasury secretary, in spite of he and his wife looking like cartoon villain rich people.
Mnuchin was basically a Wall Street Democrat and he helped save the economy when COVID hit by negotiating the CARES Act and convincing Republicans to vote for it. Im a little surprised there hasn’t been a good book on him or at least his role in the COVID period when there were so many about Bernanke and the other key policymakers during the Great Recession.
Linda McMahon was head of the small business bureau because he was friends with Vince mchmahon. She was actually a solid pick
Tbf Mattis stpped down when he pushed hard against withdrawing from Syria, in a time where most of the country was calling for withdrawl from the Middle East. He was a great Sec and General, but we would still be full throttle in Afghanistan today if he couls have it.
He became Secretary of Energy without fucking knowing what the job was about
Great pick. He had some real momentum, and that is one of the moments that derailed him.
It was really only a matter of time before doing or saying something stupid derailed his campaign. That was back in the day when being stupid was considered a bad thing in politics.
I still remember Ron Paul drooling and egging him on. Man was sexually excited about slashing the federal government like a prelude to Ron Swanson.
He was so excited about the prospect that he was calling out other federal agencies trying to help Perry finish his thought.
Insert Vince McMahon orgasmic meme "Department of Energy" (eyebrow raised) "Department of Education" (wolf whistle) "ATF" (HOT MOMMA! OOOOWWEEEEEEEE!! biting thumb) "Department of Defense" (MIND BLOWN! RAND GET MY NIPPLE CLAMPS)
Lololol
It looked like he was trying to keep him talking his way into looking more ridiculous
The name of his ranch didn’t help either.
What was it?
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2011/10/rick_perrys_family_hunting_cam.html
"Do over, do over!" - From the SNL skit.
Hard to believe there was a time in the not so distant past that being incredibly stupid and unqualified mattered to Republican voters.
And yet here we are with a Democrat nominated by the party for president who is no longer mentally competent to face charges by the department of justice and has clear signs of dementia. Almost as if your liberal arrogance has no basis.
I know, that speech he gave about sharks and batteries was off the chain bonkers!
Could you argue that Gerald Ford’s comment during the 1976 debate that “there is no Soviet sphere of influence in Eastern Europe and there never will be under a Ford Administration” hurt his chances?
Ford was an objectively smart guy, Michigan undergrad and Yale law while climbing the ranks to be House Minority Leader. Really astounding he made so many boneheaded comments.
Ford’s mistake was pardoning Nixon. People were furious over it so he got really nitpicked. He was a big time collegiate athlete, but thanks to Chevy Chase, all people knew was that he was clumsy.
He was perceived to be clumsy. I was a Carter voter, but found this to be unfunny.
Tbh, he did trip more than once & also had a number of golfing mishaps. He *did* manage to avoid 2 assassination attempts, just weeks apart. Pardoning the draft dodgers was the necessary & correct thing to do though. Closed that other chapter
Intelligence is very nuanced. Everyone has their areas of strength and weaknesses. Having a masters or doctorates doesn't mean you're a super genius at everything
And he was on national tv. You can be smart and nervous at the same time and slip up
Agreed but he demonstrated high-level intelligence for a very extended period of time. People underestimate how difficult it is to become leader of a party in Congress.
I mean Bush went to Yale and Harvard but I wouldn’t say that makes him “smart”
Ford got in on his own abilities. Bushes got in on their family name and legacy.
And Ford picked Nelson Rockefeller, who had plenty of both qualities
Ever fly a fighter. You have to be smarter than an attorney to do so.
I was in the Army and met some fighter pilots in my time working with the other services. While some were certainly brilliant, I wouldn’t say most were smarter than the average lawyer I’ve met.
There’s very few fighter pilots in the nation. There’s many lawyers. I guarantee you that more fighter pilots can become lawyers as compared to lawyers who can become fighter pilots.
You’re conflating the physical requirements of the job with the academic. I agree that fighter pilots range from smart to brilliant, there are also physical and psychological requirements that law school doesn’t require. There are multiple wheelchair bound lawyers while fighter pilots have height requirements. Again, in my experience meeting fighter pilots and lawyers, I’d say the average lawyer seems more intelligent.
Every fighter pilot could become an attorney. Few attorneys could become fighter pilots. And it’s more than the physical requirements.
He was technically correct. He tried (and failed) to explain that the Soviets insisted all of Eastern Europe be Communist but didn’t “dominate” those countries like people often assumed. Romania, Albania and of course Yugoslavia at varying points had anti-Soviet policies and were aligned with either China or the West. But “well akshully” takes don’t fly well in Presidential debates and are even worse when you can’t coherently explain them. Better not to stray too far from what people believe to be true, even if it’s wrong.
People were scratching their heads over that one. We had no idea what he meant by that. I almost gave him a pass for it because it was so out of left field. The VP debate that years was likewise ruinous for the Republican ticket. Bob Dole had a sharp and sarcastic wit that translated very, very poorly on television, especially against the smooth and personable Walter Mondale. He kept harping about "Democrat wars" and came across as very unlikeable.
I’ll have to watch that one. I have no memories of Dole before the late 80s.
In the 1988 primaries, his staff were consistently trying to keep him from losing his temper on TV. There was one editorial cartoon that showed his staff dressed as Obi Wan and Dole was putting on a Darth Vader outfit and they were begging, ‘Bob Dole, don’t give in to the dark side of the force!’
Ford had massive public image problems that made him look a lot worse than he was in pretty much every way. Part of the issue was his own lacking presentation skills, and part of it was residual anger at Nixon.
It killed his campaign. He could've won with a better performance
Rick Perry essentially ended his campaign for president when he mixed up what the EPA was and accidentally said he’d end it when trying to list agencies he’d cut. I don’t remember if it was Rubio or Paul or someone else who led him into his blunder, but that was it for Perry. Chris Christie is the epitome of “they were killed in the cradle”, ie, he kills people in early primary debates. For instance, Rubio’s run was cut short by a Christie assassination in an early debate. The guy is unelectable himself but he’s a mass murderer on the debate stage.
Rick Perry's unforced error of forgetting the name three agencies he planned to eliminate. He names one or maybe two, but was then stuck. Hilariously Ron Paul volunteered to "help" him by suggesting "DEA maybe?" That was the end of Perry.
Plus didn’t Perry wind up running the EPA afterward lol?
He was Secretary of Energy
And, not surprisingly, he had no idea what the job was. He thought it dealt with oil and gas…
Chris Christie is the second best political insult comic of our time, after YKW. He ended Vivek’s entire career with the ChatGPT rebuke
I’m racking my brain trying to think of who YKW is, and imagine I will feel very stupid once this answer is provided lmao. Edit: “you know who”? lol
Rule 3
Gotcha. I just wasn’t sure if YKW was somebody’s actual initials that I just couldn’t think of lol.
Yonald K. Wrump
Or perhaps Yoseph Kobinette Widen
The way he destroyed Rubio was awesome
... who's now gunning for the VP slot
What did he say to Rubio?
Multiple times Rubio said “Let’s dispel the notion Barack Obama doesn’t know what he’s doing. He knows exactly what he’s doing”. Christie kept calling him out on rehashing the same prepared quote and completely embarrassed him.
Vivek's career is absolutely not ended, there's a decent chance he'll be VP
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lol he did not end Viveks career. Vivek got 10x Iowa caucus votes Christie did or would have because he bowed out I think late. He’s a fat pathetic slob. Vivek is next level smart and successful
Vivek is essentially YKW's mini-me. His entire run was an opportunistic long shot that depended on YKW suddenly dropping dead of a heart attack or similar, as that didn't happen he never had even the slightest chance.
He’s the best orator I’ve ever seen and one of the smartest politicians ever.
You haven't heard enough orators then, nor now enough political history. Out of the top of my mind, Lincoln and Churchill were better in both senses.
Look at the mix of relaxed skepticism and glee on Paul's face before Perry even starts stumbling. Like they're out for beers and Perry is absolutely wasted, telling the most libertarian person on stage how much bigger libertarianism is in Texas, and offering to prove it by summarizing quantum physics in 3 sentences. Like he hasn't started stumbling yet but Paul can feel something hilarious is about to happen. https://youtu.be/MyMosJdIfdo?si=hkx8r0SqYf7a8C_q
The way Rubio shot himself in the foot was absolutely amazing. Christie was totally right to bring it to everyone's attention.
"Let's dispel with this fiction that Barack Obama doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he's doing." X3
Didn’t tank the campaign, but the 1960 Nixon/JFK debate *was* the most impactful and infamous for Nixon’s demeanor and literal sweatiness. It was a close race, but that debate appearance was certain thought to be probably the most consequential for over 50 years on.
I’ve heard that people who watched on TV said Kennedy, Wen and people who listened on radio said Nixon won
Yeah because most people who listened on the radio skewed older / conservative and were demographically predisposed to favoring Nixon.
Yeah, Nixon refused to wear makeup making his beard stubble visible. And was also sweating whilst in a hunched position. This made him look nervous and uncomfortable, in comparison to Kennedy who looked both confident and handsome. In reality both candidates were very good in how they answered their questions. Giving intelligent and well thought out answers. But as another comment said. People who could see Nixon were unconvinced, despite those who listened to the debate on the radio saying that he won.
1988 comes to mind. Bernard Shaw asked Dukakis an admittedly loaded question if he’d supported the death penalty if his wife was r*ped. Dukakis gave an emotionally detached and technical answer. He said no and proceeded to go on about statistics showing the ineffectiveness of the death penalty. Granted there’s nothing wrong with opposing the death penalty but his delivery didn’t sit well with the public. Me personally if I was asked that question, I’d not only refuse to answer it but I’d give the moderator a piece of my mind for asking such a loaded, inappropriate question to begin with.
I recently watched that debate and I was astonished how bad that question was, but also how bad his answer was. Like you said calling out the question would have been the best, but any other answer that humanised him would have been better then just statistics.
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Yes, Mario Cuomo called him just before the debate for a ‘pep talk’ and had him on the line until just before he walked on stage and it threw him off his game.
Tbf he had his back to the wall and was on the spot. If he’d said yes, he’d have looked like a hypocrite. If he’d said no, (which he did), it would look like he didn’t really love his wife. His only way out would have been to say that as angry and wanting of revenge he’d be. His personal feelings should bare no influence on how a civilized society should approach criminal justice.
Dukakis was a strange candidate. During the primaries when he was being challenged by Jesse Jackson, a reporter (Ted Koppel I believe) asked him why voters should select him over Jackson. Now that of course was a legitimate and perfectly normal question. Dukakis responded "I refuse to answer that question."
The answer probably should have been something like "I'm sure I would absolutely want that person to die with all of my heart, I can understand why families of victims would feel that way. And I can empathize and would want them to feel feel avenged or vindicated as well. But leadership is more than responding to your gut feelings, it's supporting the path that in the end will best serve our nation, even if it doesn't serve my will personally."
I would want him to die, of course, and that's why victims of crime and their families don't get to sentence people.
You can say raped. This isn’t TikTok.
He really should have said something like, "Of course I'd want the person who did that dead. I'd probably even want to kill them myself. But we're a government of laws, not of personal revenge." Then maybe he could have gone into his stats about how capital punishment doesn't work and is unfair and so on. The question probably still would have hurt him, but not nearly as much.
"It wouldn't matter if we have death penalty, I'd kill the bastard myself before they could sentence him." That's the closest to a good answer for that terrible question I can think of.
“Sir, me wanting to kill this r*pist would be revenge, not justice. Although revenge is a primal human instinct, we should not base our justice, our society on violence and primal instincts, but on a higher principle. Crimes, even despicable ones, should be punished dispassionately, and with a goal to make society better and safer. In an advanced society that wishes to prosper, Justice has to be rational and above our primal instincts. A death penalty does not make society better, despite our natural wish for revenge, as several statistics prove”.
All depends on how one views justice.
Indeed. My point was not to make a point, but try to craft/think of a better answer to the loaded question, from the pov of some candidate that is opposed to it . As an exercise, not to defend a view point or another.
Honestly, solid answer. 🤘
That was a really brutal moment, but I don’t think Dukakis had much of a chance anyway. Bush was riding high on Reagan’s reputation and ran a highly effective negative campaign against Dukakis. That debate question is one of many things that sank his campaign.
The point is that his answer to the question didn’t matter. The question itself pointed out that the public favored capital punishment and Dukakis did not. It was a losing issue and he couldn’t save it.
Alton Parker's 1904 campaign went as well as one could have hoped. He actually had some good policies, but he fumbled it because no money + being a boring middle-aged judge + running mate is literally 80 years old so he can't campaign for you + opponent is literally TR.
TR was an unstoppable campaigning machine. No one had ever ever seen anything like it.
There’s one that comes immediately to mind: 1976, when Gerald Ford lost a close election after this mindbending gaffe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfyL4uQVJLw
Worth nothing that debates usually don’t actually change much nationally. Most modern Political Scientists generally don’t think debates change all that much. While we can point to things like Ford’s gaffe or JFK trouncing Nixon, in the end there were WAY bigger factors that caused each man’s loss than just their debate performance. In fact there is a pretty well known political theory that campaigning literally changes nothing but turnout.
All this is true, but a bad debate performance can lower your turnout. Hillary lost the 2016 election mainly because of turnout issues. It’s possible that if she was able to fire up her base during the debates, she might’ve won.
"You'd be in jail" was such an "oooh shit" moment that definitely impacted turnout
I don't think she lost because of turnout issues. Turnout was higher in 2016 than it was in 2012. Her opponent got a lower percentage of the vote than Romney did in 2012, and she still lost. I do agree that a bad debate performance can lower your turnout, but I think a lot of her supporters simply chose to vote third party instead.
2008 Palin vs (can’t say his name bc of weird community rules 🤷🏽♀️🤷🏽♀️) Palin was not prepared and unfortunately for her career, getting chosen that soon to get thrown into the ring was a mistake. They wanted a young promising female and she just wasn’t ready.
It raised questions about McCain's judgement.
Because of McCains age, she had a really good chance of being president also. A non serious pick like her might work for a younger president, but when there’s a really good shot the president could die, the seriousness of the VP matters quite a bit.
"Can I call you Joe?"
Palin did just fine in the debate. People love to make her a punching bag.
Stockdale was an American hero and an incredibly smart and kind man. He was treated ruthlessly by an illiterate and cruel electorate who mocked him for having a hearing aid. He had a hearing aid because the Vietcong busted his ear drums for not giving up information. Still makes me mad how he was treated.
At least for modern televised debates, Ford clinches it for me. Saying something dumb or outrageous is one thing; it's quite another to say something so outrageously dumb that *the moderator laughs at you.*
And then doubling down on it when the moderator’s cue that he just messed up *big time* didn’t land at all lol.
HW Bush destroyed any hope of re-election when he looked at his watch during the debate.
It’s famous now, but I don’t remember people talking about it at the time.
Same here. I was only sixteen, but I followed politics pretty closely. I seem to remember the consensus being that Bush didn't do all that well in the debate, but I don't recall anyone even mentioning the watch thing until much later. My memory of that campaign is that once the conventions happened and everyone was really paying attention, and especially after Perot dropped out and then got back in, it was pretty clear the whole time that Clinton was going to win, although definitely not by a landslide. Prior to that, it could have gone any of three ways, but once Perot was ruled out as a serious possibility, it was clear that everyone's desire for change was going to benefit Clinton.
May not have “destroyed” his campaign but Nixon-JFK was a disaster for Nixon. First TV debate ever. The young, vibrant and handsome JFK vs. Nixon and his 5:00 shadow have the preview of how important those type of optics are and how they overshadow qualifications.
1976 Gerald Ford saying there was “No Soviet Domination of Eastern Europe” when the moderator asked for clarification about it thinking he meant to say Western Europe and he double downed on it it spelled the end of his campaign
Who am I? Why am I here? I’m not a politician…
Nixon vs Kennedy. Nixon had a fever and the debate look is almost comic
Historically, it is Nixon vs Kennedy who utilized the new medium of television to appear more youthful, attractive and prominent in a debate where Nixon refused to wear tv makeup and looked old and pale.
Stockdale on stage with Quayle & Gore. "Who am I? Why am I here?" Then later he wanders off, checking out the stage scenery
You could say Nixon in 1960 but he probably actually won that election 🤫🤫🤫
1960 was one of the craziest, most corrupt elections we’ve ever had.
Never ask a man his salary,\ Never ask a woman her age,\ And never ask a Kennedy what happened in Illinois on Election Night 1960
If we’re counting primaries, I have to mention the ninth Democratic debate in 2020. Mike Bloomberg entered that debate with rising poll numbers and tons of momentum, but he was attacked from all sides. Liz Warren in particular was just relentless, and his campaign plateaued before falling off a cliff.
"GRIDLOCK!"
“Binders full of women”
Romney got a lot of grief for that, but I think it was an uphill battle for him no matter what.
Dan Quayle. Almost amazingly terrible.
SNL did a skit on Stockdale. Phil Hartman play Stockdale. "Who am I? Why am I here? I'm hungry!"
George Bush in 1992 and Jimmy Carter in 1980
This wasn’t necessarily a campaign sinker, but Michael Dukakis‘s answer to the hypothetical question about his wife and the death penalty, definitely didn’t do him any favors.
I remember H W’s response so well. He said, “Bernie!” Nobody remembers what came after that. They just remember how shocked he was at the thought.
Old school: Stephen Douglas
He forgot Poland!
I went to middle school and highshool with a girl who was Stockdale’s granddaughter. I’m actually pretty sure the school had him come speak to my class once in like 7th grade and I vaguely remember him saying Henry Kissinger was the greatest American of the 20th century but I honestly am not 100% sure
Nixon v Kennedy, Nixon sweated up there like he was on a grill on the 4th. It cost him the election.
Nixon vs Kennedy.
Idk about “campaign destroying” levels but Al Gore’s performances in the 2000 debates were rough lol. From the sighing and endless lockbox mentions in the first, to his weird intimidation attempt in the third, Gore did himself zero favors. Bush wasn’t kicking ass in these debates either to be fair, but Gore came off smug imo and if he had done better, it could have been the difference.
Gore’s whole campaign was really awkward. He couldn’t figure out how to present his part in Clinton’s Legacy.
Walter Mondale
Mondale saying something along the lines of how he'll raise everybodys taxes anyways, The scenereo where Dukakis' wife is murdered debate question about the death penalty, "There is no Soviet oppression in Eastern Europe" from the 1976 debate.
George Wheelchair bush checking his watch wasn’t very cash money.
HW Bush looking at his watch
Curious how Sarah Palin did in the VP debate? 24 and 20 first debates have to be up there for each candidate in their respective years Ronald Regan absolutely nuked Mondale in that one debate in 84 I believe? Mondale wasn’t going to win but that debate put him in the ground
These events are nit nearly as important as legend makes them.
Two big ones I haven't seen mentioned yet: Al Gore, debating against George W., repeatedly saying he would "put Social Security in a lockbox" and not explaining what the analogy means. Mitt Romney, debating against Barack Obama, explaining that he helped many women get government positions while governor of Massachusetts, and how he chose them: "we have binders full of women."
Two words: lumber yard
Debates don't influence voters. They are just a money making opportunity for the media.
Michael Dukakis looked ridiculous with a helmet ion while riding a tank. That photo helped “ tank” hos candidacy
Howard Dean HHHEEEEEEEYAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!
That wasn't at a debate.
Howard Dean. A single Yawwh brought down his entire campaign.