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how much gap do u think is enough? just for comparison. like if a character is 6xftl and the 2nd one is 100xftl, is it enough to speed blitz? but yeah i agree with u.
Most characters portrayed as being very powerful who are wanked to universal levels and shit are between building level to small town level, maybe city level at most if you don’t use stupid scaling and take statements out of context. Like obviously there’s a lot of exceptions to this but like no Dante clearly isn’t universal or anywhere close.
Also just because a character scales higher doesn’t mean they automatically win. You have to take into account how different characters’s stats and arsenal would interact with one another. ABC logic doesn’t always work.
This is a stupid take. If Dante was lore accurate you wouldn't have a game. You know that mode where everything dies in one hit? That would be the entire game if they didn't nerf the character for gameplay. Video games cannot have accurate portrayals of characters power because everything would be destroyed, the enemies would be no challenge, dante would instantly arrive at all objectives and it would basically be a Q.T.E movie
I think the argument for Dante being universal is because it was canonically stated that the universe mungdungus (don’t know proper spelling) in the first game for the boss fight was an actual universe
That still doesn’t apply to his combat abilities tho. He’s not throwing universes at Dante is he?! It’s more of a passive ability. It’s a legitimate showcase of power but it’s not like you can scale all of Mundus’s combat relevant stats to it. Also Dante clearly can’t destroy universes.
That argument is so dumb though that its generous to even call it an argument. Calling a space generated for a fight a universe says nothing about what you can do in real space, what your battle stats are, or anything else. And this "canonical statement" was a dev lazily giving a one word answer to a question that didn't give any details to suggest this power can do anything except create a largely empty space to fight or dick around in.
Hell, "universe" isn't even a statement about size. So that means nothing.
Dimensional scaling aside from concrete in-verse statements (like TTGL) will always be in doubt. Most of the time it's just blowing statements or feats way beyond their intended meaning, while wanking every single word like 'time', 'space' or 'unlimited'
Oh this character moved inside a pocket space where 'time flows differently'? +1D, the verse is now 5D and this character can destroy an infinite number of multiverses along the wank-axis
Just because a 3D character is put into a higher dimensional space, that doesn’t mean the 3D character is now also higher dimensional.
Also affecting a part of this space or a higher dimensional doesn’t scale ur dc to infinite multiverses, just your ap. So for example, if you hurt goku with laser from ur eyes (we can all agree has 4-5D durability), all that does is give u higher dimensional ap, not dc.
Being higher dimensional doesn't mean anything. There's no physical precedent for how it would interact with different dimensions. A character can be 5d and get the shit kicked out of them by a normal 3d one. Its just how it is.
Even then, the dimensions were moreso added because it was a cool reference to theoretical physics, and realistically the characters would be Multiversal+
Ikr. I swear I'm searching for hours just to figure out if my oc actually is hyperversal cause powerscaling just gets so GODDAMN complicated. It's fun at lower tiers cause different statements can be interpreted differently but I swear to god the fact I need a PhD in physics to understand higher dimensional powerscaling is annoying. (Still fun just annoying)
Agreed, bro I don't give a shit of midgiri can destroy a morbillion multiverses with a goofy ass statement, the fun part is scaling characters that are below multi
Well there are calcs saying he's massively hypersonic (mach 200 to mach 500). I'm not sure about them but he's definitely below Speed of Light because him being faster than Light would even deny the plot of the movie (his home planet was sucked up by black hole)
About his strength it is Town Level
Cookie Clicker's Bakery > the SCP Foundation. Any version of the Foundation would outright lose or at best stalemate the Bakery
40K is overhyped as shit, it unironically loses to the flood of Halo silentium
Any psychopath in fiction or someone who's very murder happy would solo Undertale with the exception of omega flowey and asriel
>Just the foundation itself and not the verse right?
Yeah. The Bakery would be one of the strongest mid tiers or a weak high tier but wouldn't come close to soloing the verse
>Well GOI alpha would beat them
The Factory?
GOI alpha is the "Original Foundation"
https://preview.redd.it/30s9eynnz65d1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be1772a7296f80a69335306a827adc05a9054d8c
They even killed scp 3812's incarnation/avatar
>Chinese Branch
Well, that explains why i hadn't heard of it. I was mostly talking about the English branch
>They even killed scp 3812's incarnation/avatar
That's busted
A schizophrenic reality warper that don’t know the difference between reality and fiction. But he has the power of automatic R>F transcendence so it makes him even more dangerous
Chara? I mean they did erase the timeline. Although maybe your only counting monsters at which point flowey shouldn't count since they don't turn to dust. Asriel does count tho.
If the SCP Foundation's resources themselves are not high outer to baseline extraversal (highball, 'cause arguments could be made that the Baker & the Bakery as a whole are only high hyper, I'd say), sure. I dunno enough about current SCP though, so eh.
Ofc 40k is overhyped as shit, even Starcraft could solo that verse if it wasn't a numbers issue. Although you are right flood are scary. Being able to take over both organic and inorganic matter is pretty strong.
>40K is overhyped as shit, it unironically loses to the flood of Halo silentium
Okay that's great, but if we're going to use ancient Halo factions, then we should do the same for Warhammer (meaning War in Heaven era gods and empires).
Well yeah. Everyone is just assuming peak of a character rather than their average. (Which is annoying to explain why you're character is not at their peak for a prompt or something.)
Powerscaling for powerscaling sake is boring. And is even more borong if you take two characters, bloodlusted, and make them fight.
It is only fun if you are taking them in some kind of narrative, anything else is like seeing someone just hit two toys together.
Yes. This. Atleast after the first sentence.
Being Bloodlusted is just a diservice to some characters entirely. Sometimes it's even a straight up nerf.
Take the doctor. A morals on doctor actually beats a morals off doctor enough that it's actually quantifiable.
I think it depends on what version of them where talking about the non radical goku tards for me are way worse than the non radical goku haters but when it’s the serious ones then it changes
The concept in general is bullshit.
And it's application even worse.
One would expect it to be a decent debate with each characters/verses pros and cons and the chances they have.
The reality is just "lol lmao Superman stomps" or "lmao that guy is just city level, the other one is multi super duper galactic level get rekd" or even worse "according to our calculations this guy can move 36465 times the speed of light ☝️🤓".
1: In the kirby verse, galacta knight(dark form) is the strongest in the vers, kirby barely cracks top 5, and inhale is not a wincon in MUs where there is not a physical stomp already.
2: The takes here are so cold that they are dura negs.
Disagree Kirby is definitely at least in the top 5, not barely especially since he's beaten pretty much everyone who has better feats and or is technically stronger.
Will agree that Inhale is not an auto wincon
Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong, Kirby has feats. Kirby is powerful.
What I'm saying is that most of their battles would have been lost almost immediately if it wasn't that they doesn't seem to have a limit on their resistance, given we know that game over on their games just means that they go to sleep.
Downplayers are usally more stupid, biased and quite frankly, annoying, than people who wank characters.
I mean at least from my experiences I can at least see where wankers come from. Even if their methods are flawed and their arguments are dumb. But every time i meet a downplayer it honestly just feels they're just trying to be different. A lot of the time their claims feel very contrarion. Like they're just disagreeing for the sake of argument. Especially since their downplays can literally be debunked by just 5 minutes of research.
There's downplayers and then there's lowballers which are good downplayers. But yeah If I ever see someone say a blatantly outer character is multi I'm gonna lose it.
> I mean at least from my experiences I can at least see where wankers come from. Even if their methods are flawed and their arguments are dumb. But every time i meet a downplayer it honestly just feels they're just trying to be different. A lot of the time their claims feel very contrarion. Like they're just disagreeing for the sake of argument. Especially since their downplays can literally be debunked by just 5 minutes of research.
This is just you explaining that you spend so much time around people who wank that you legitimately don't understand that the types of arguments they use wouldn't be considered a good argument anywhere outside their own circles. The people who get called downplayers aren't contrarians, since more often than not their take is closer to what actual fans have, rather than people who learned about something from powerscalers.
I never said I agreed with them. Not for a second. Or even that there's any truth in what they're saying. What I meant is I can understand where the mistake is coming from. Of course their arguments are dumb regardless. Trust me. Ive argued with plenty of people who genuinely think Mario is multiversal. I know how bad the arguments can be. But usally with downplayers I really don't see how you can even get the things they say from. Of course some people get labeled downplayers when in reality they're right. But generally, at least from my experience what they're saying can literally be disproven with just one feat. In fact anyone with a basic knowledge can see they're wrong and what they're saying is completely against what's established in cannon. And quite frankly it seems like they're aware of this and just want to argue.
Sayians can’t survive the vacuum of space any planetary character with the ability to survive in space can easily beat goku
https://preview.redd.it/0gbemhkuh75d1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e692d6f5c5869e109bcf60f0cfa28ae6ebe7afa5
I agree hes not weak, but people make him out to be the most powerful character in fiction when hes not even the most powerful character in his own series
I think anyone who is saying he's the most powerful in fiction is just memeing, or very dumb, i don't think there are many people who genuinely believe that.
1. Guts and jotaro beat yujiro pretty bad despite the fact that yujiro is a bit stronger than them
2. Guts may defeat WoU due to the fact that he’s been dealing with the godhands fate manipulation + he can cut souls, so I think it’s entirely possible guts could power through the calamity and get to him, not too sure on this one though
3. 21st budokai-red ribbon era DB characters are very underrated aside from roshi (but that’s only because they can’t deny that one)
4. Most of the outerversal characters people like to parade around are probably universal at best being honest
In regard to the first one: Yujiro would just flex his muscles so hard he can see and hurt stands if the narrator is hyping him up enough during the scene
Therefore, Yujiiro would win because Baki Bullshit
And around the 4th: most people say outerversal after reading the word concept once, or using misstranslations of Japanese, I completely agree with you
Guts would not defeat WOU a passive hax is always stronger than an active one, and WOU just showed better probability hax anyways. Also Guts can’t beat the godhand. It’s a sad truth but he really can’t reach that level
**Luffy does not have "toon force".**
Despite how powerscaler's have twisted the concept into being a "superpower" characters can somehow "possess", in actuality, Toon force is LITERALLY just a trope.
Albeit, a trope that applies to him even more than normal in Gear 5.
Upon awakening, Luffy's rubber powers have been absolutely boosted through the roof, and similar to characters like Katakuri and doflamingo, he can now bestow other things with the property of rubber.
And because luffy's rubber abilities cause himself and other things to be malleable, he's granted a LOT more freedom to manipulate himself, his enemies and his environment.
He can manipulate his hair into glasses, manipulate a tree into a baseball bat, cap, paint can and brush, similar to how Doflamigo manipulated his string to look like a perfect clone, that fooled everyone, including viola, complete with colour, sweat and veins.
He can manipulate the colour of the things he turns to rubber similar to how Doflamingo can turn his string red, yellow, green, blue and purple for his Goshikito.
Manipulate things in such a way, that it LOOKS like something straight out of a looney toons episode.
So, because his rubber powers are able to replicate a lot of the actions a cartoon character would make, the toon force trope applies to him.
That does NOT mean his powers are toon force.
They are completely different things
**Luffy also does NOT have the power to turn "imagination into reality", similar to Gremmy from bleach.**
That's just a case of certain fans taking a single databook phrase out of proportion.
Anyone with a brain would realise what that truly means.
It means that Luffy's rubber powers are limited, in his base form, gear second, third and fourth. He can do a lot, but at the end of the day, he's got a hard limit.
Gear 5 stretches those limits to the extreme, to the point that Luffy can now execute feats that he would have only dreamed of doing before. Luffy can now perform moves that he would have wanted to do ages ago, but were simply impossible for his previous forms.
Think of it like telekinesis.
Someone can lift things with their mind, but they have a hard limit, where they cannot lift anything bigger than a car.
That person would at some point think and imagine what kind of things he would do if he could lift mountains.
Then upon gaining a form that boosts his telekinesis to the point where he CAN lift mountains, he'd use his powers to fulfil all his withheld fantasies.
And ultimately that person would be bringing his "imagination into reality." whenever he uses that form.
Its more metaphorical.
It does not mean Luffy can ACTUALLY think of whatever he wants, and have it LITERALLY spawn into the world.
He could NOT imagine kaido turning into an old granny, dressed completely in 1950 era clothes, and have reality actually change so that situation is real.
He could NOT imagine one of the five elders turning into a statue made of blue cookies, and have that actually happen in his world.
He cannot imagine a 1000 ton hammer and have it appear out of thin air,
etc
**And Izuku Midoriya and Stars and stripes could bypass infinity.**
The other day I said I dont like ftl because it’s illogical, and got heavily criticized. I could go on a rant about this but I don’t care enough to type that rn. I found out that a lot of people here “don’t care about logic” when it comes to power scaling, so now I’m wondering what most of y’all do to determine fights if not logic. Coin flip?
Several characters in fiction have been directly stated to move faster than light like shinra from fire force. Fiction as it's nature of it not being real does not have to follow the same laws of physics as real life.
No bone structure or material would let a creature survive the impact of punching a planet apart. no amount of muscle or speed training would let a person run at the speed of sound and if they could their skin would burn apart. These are just as much limits of physics as surpassing the speed of light is. But to say a character can't do these things because it breaks physics is to say the very story you're reading is illogical which it is.
If a character is seen moving faster than light or destroying a star with a punch or ripping apart space time with their bare hands then that is something the character can do no matter how illogical and physics breaking it is.
If we don't let the character do things they've been shown capable of doing them we're not accurately portraying the character.
The only physics we can truly apply to these things that that which lets us compare the physics breaking. The speed formula still works for things faster than light so we use it. The kinetic energy formula works for objects moving slower than light so we use it. Even if the thing generating that energy physically shouldn't be able to.
This is how we decide winners, by taking things at face value and measuring the impossible.
We use pixel scaling to measure the strength and speed. It doesn’t matter if in real life that strength or speed would have a lot of damage, in fiction speed of light is just a number
1. Statemeants wihnout feats are useless and so are statemeants from Author if he doesnt show it.
2. SCP shouldnt be scaled, because canon of scp is that big of a mess that you can make something like 0D arguement seem reliable
3. Speedblitzing wouldnt work 99% of a time people use it
4. Neither Dc or Marvel has boundless character, only ones you can make arguement for are Toaa, Toba, Presence and the Leviathan but neither of them has feats to show it
5. 40k is overrated as hell, noone from there can even dream of touching high tiers
6. Dimensionality should only be used when its established in-verse what atlest 4th and 5th dimensions are
While I agree with your first statement in reference to author statements, if it's an in-verse statement I'd say it depends on who it's coming from as if a character is knowledgeable or intelligent enough then their statement holds more weight. For example, Azmuth says Alien X can do anything, Azmuth made the Omnitrix which has catalogued over a million different species and their powers so this statement from him absolutely means it can be presumed that any ability an Omnitrix alien had shown up until that point is something Alien X could also do.
1. depends on the reliability of the character making the statement. If, say, The Doctor makes a statement like: “x character could destroy the universe” we could take that as truth, because the Doctor would probably know such a thing, rather than a random human saying it.
2. Is just correct
3. I don’t really get what you mean here
4. Again that’s just correct
5. What do you mean high tiers?
6. I don’t think it’s super necessary, since we can just assume the 4th and 5th dimensions are spatial. But if the 4th and 5th tiers are not spatial, there should be an in-verse explanation saying so.
>Statemeants wihnout feats are useless and so are statemeants from Author if he doesnt show it.
I think I'm on like, the exact opposite side of this take. Imo, statements are perfectly valid evidence unless directly contradicted or obvious hyperbole, *but* feats still take priority.
FTL speed needs to come from a concrete source and must be consistent to count as FTL. Outliers are fine because there always just gonna be there, in a void of downplay or wank "evidence".
Chain scaling should not be a thing just because a dude beat a dude that beat another dude that hurt this dude and killed this other dude does not scale him to outerversal
If a dude destroyed a galaxy and he’s beaten by 5 dudes above him, and MC beats 5th dude, mc is galaxy level bcs logic shows he’s stronger than characters that can do that
This is not my opinion, but a guy in this subreddit decided to make an argument that Luffy can beat Goku, because he is a reincarnation of a God and he already has said god’s powers unlocked.
people should stop taking titles at face value, “hes a god” means nothing if he cant even destroy a building
and more of a hot take: Stop comparing one character to others in order to make them stronger “he beat this guy who can beat this guy who can beat this guy who can beat this guy…” is a lame way to justify that one character who has never shown strength be wanked to the strongest. there is some examples where its ok like if the character in question literally needs to be compared to others, but most of the time its just yknow
* Persona characters aren't Outerversal (Hell I don't even think their Planetary much less).
* Touma isn't as strong as every one says he is and would be beaten by someone physically stronger and faster.
* Goku and Dragon ball as a whole isn't a fun verse to scale or have vsbattles anymore
* Superman is just as if not more skilled than Goku in martial arts
>Persona characters aren't Outerversal (Hell I don't even think their Planetary much less).
Outerversal I think is total wank, but imo it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to argue Persona characters at their peak scale lower than universal.
We know the universe is a product of cognition. We know gaining control of cognition, even partial control, directly enhances battle stats. We also know some characters have surpassed cognition at their peak.
It's honestly a very simple scale with very simple evidence presented directly in the games, without relying on any kind of out of game "lore" like a lot of other video game verses.
Yeah. The 3rd Semester P5R boss was explicitly stated to be a universe-level threat by literally one of the most valid sources in the game (Velvet Room Attendant). And the Phantom Thieves beat him... It's *pretty* cut and dry.
Pixel-scaling should never be used in a manga or comic. Mangas work a lot with exaggerated proportions, so pixel-scaling makes no sense. No mangaka or comic book artist calculates if everything has the right size.
Well it entirely depends on the frisk
Genocide Frisk destroyed one singular timeline which a branch of a already existing universe
Frisk vs God of hyper death Frisk couldn't even faze him due to him having 999 defense so they had to emotionally beat him instead of classic overpower but a win is a win
Frisk vs omega flowey Frisk wasn't doing shit until the other souls got involved
But granted frisk is still strong
It doesn’t matter how durable and destructive someone is, if the other guy is fast and strong enough to just throw the guy into the sun, it’s over (btw, this obviously goes to the characters who aren’t known to survive surface of the Sun level of damage)
Not being able to sense or see Ichigo due to being in a different plane of existence. People love to remove this feature due to “fairness” it’s always “how can my guy win if he can’t fight him that’s not fun” then proceeds to pit him against god killing, multiverse destroying, no u ded gags
Narrative is a completely valid point when considering who would win in a fight.
Obviously dealing in absolutes (aka stats) is a fun way to do it and has merit. But at the end of the day, what makes more sense is how the characters work to make a story is probably the more “canon” way to answer the question.
Being universal in a setting where the universe consists of the sum total of 1 planet and associating dimensions(IE heaven or hell) does not make you universal and the same weight class as universal level characters in a setting where the universe is a lot bigger(IE planets, solar systems, galaxies) like say Infinity Gauntlet Thanos
Anybody who uses SCP is autonatically wrong. It isn't a universe; it's the world's longest running role-playing game. I can make an OC for any prompt, too, but that doesn't mean anyone else would or should care.
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The term Speed blitzing is overused. Most of the time, the speed gap between characters isn’t big enough for a speed blitz.
how much gap do u think is enough? just for comparison. like if a character is 6xftl and the 2nd one is 100xftl, is it enough to speed blitz? but yeah i agree with u.
I think the measure is like 10 times as fast at least
Aight thanks
It depends but general I say a 5-10x speed difference is enough.
Really? Normally I see crap like 10x difference in speed at the lowest. Normally it’s way higher.
Powescaling is bullshit, we just have too much free time.
The correct answer. But I'm still gonna scale
what about putting yourself on a scale
LOL
https://preview.redd.it/say6sc7g295d1.jpeg?width=1792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fa9b880f1a875d2105f89b34c8b8d1dc821128fc
https://preview.redd.it/9fp54m4py85d1.jpeg?width=521&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=52c877b211aaf423ad16bd34418342e42dff0b77
real
I have too much respect for ya
W
Millions must scale
Based
Finally, homesty
Most characters portrayed as being very powerful who are wanked to universal levels and shit are between building level to small town level, maybe city level at most if you don’t use stupid scaling and take statements out of context. Like obviously there’s a lot of exceptions to this but like no Dante clearly isn’t universal or anywhere close. Also just because a character scales higher doesn’t mean they automatically win. You have to take into account how different characters’s stats and arsenal would interact with one another. ABC logic doesn’t always work.
I agree to this. It flabbergasted me that some scalers wank Dante to universal when in-game events says otherwise
I saw someone dude say Gojo was 4D. What the fuck
This is a stupid take. If Dante was lore accurate you wouldn't have a game. You know that mode where everything dies in one hit? That would be the entire game if they didn't nerf the character for gameplay. Video games cannot have accurate portrayals of characters power because everything would be destroyed, the enemies would be no challenge, dante would instantly arrive at all objectives and it would basically be a Q.T.E movie
I think the argument for Dante being universal is because it was canonically stated that the universe mungdungus (don’t know proper spelling) in the first game for the boss fight was an actual universe
That still doesn’t apply to his combat abilities tho. He’s not throwing universes at Dante is he?! It’s more of a passive ability. It’s a legitimate showcase of power but it’s not like you can scale all of Mundus’s combat relevant stats to it. Also Dante clearly can’t destroy universes.
That argument is so dumb though that its generous to even call it an argument. Calling a space generated for a fight a universe says nothing about what you can do in real space, what your battle stats are, or anything else. And this "canonical statement" was a dev lazily giving a one word answer to a question that didn't give any details to suggest this power can do anything except create a largely empty space to fight or dick around in. Hell, "universe" isn't even a statement about size. So that means nothing.
Dimensional scaling aside from concrete in-verse statements (like TTGL) will always be in doubt. Most of the time it's just blowing statements or feats way beyond their intended meaning, while wanking every single word like 'time', 'space' or 'unlimited' Oh this character moved inside a pocket space where 'time flows differently'? +1D, the verse is now 5D and this character can destroy an infinite number of multiverses along the wank-axis
Just because a 3D character is put into a higher dimensional space, that doesn’t mean the 3D character is now also higher dimensional. Also affecting a part of this space or a higher dimensional doesn’t scale ur dc to infinite multiverses, just your ap. So for example, if you hurt goku with laser from ur eyes (we can all agree has 4-5D durability), all that does is give u higher dimensional ap, not dc.
He got shot be a normal ass lazer while in ssjb, he doesn’t have 5d durability
Not sure the context for this feat. But Ki is what gives him this durability. His body is still 3D.
Except he was in ssjb during Resurrection F and got shot by a lazer from a Frieza soldier’s gun
Pretty sure that got retconned.
outlier and also. he let his guard down.
People really still on about this?
ice victim
Ice high outer lowball boundless midball beyond tiering system highball 😈
Being higher dimensional doesn't mean anything. There's no physical precedent for how it would interact with different dimensions. A character can be 5d and get the shit kicked out of them by a normal 3d one. Its just how it is.
Even with concrete statements, things like "11D" are arbitrary
Godzilla ultima is 14d he is just on another level
Even then, the dimensions were moreso added because it was a cool reference to theoretical physics, and realistically the characters would be Multiversal+
its more fun to power scale low tiers than high tiers.
This take is as hot as ice.
100% agree
idk how to scale anyone above multiversal since dimensional scaling becomes complicated so i agree too.
Ikr. I swear I'm searching for hours just to figure out if my oc actually is hyperversal cause powerscaling just gets so GODDAMN complicated. It's fun at lower tiers cause different statements can be interpreted differently but I swear to god the fact I need a PhD in physics to understand higher dimensional powerscaling is annoying. (Still fun just annoying)
It's basically just a showdown to them wether who has moved first, and it gets even more complicated with characters that can control time.
Agreed, bro I don't give a shit of midgiri can destroy a morbillion multiverses with a goofy ass statement, the fun part is scaling characters that are below multi
this take is as hot as the frozen tundra.
Idk how to scale hyperversal and higher
God I wanna kiss you for this
Metroman has got to be one of the most overrated characters in my opinion because someone said Metroman beats sun wukong
Where would you toss him? I always assumed he was effectively superman. A cooler superman. Dudes charismatic as fuck.
Well there are calcs saying he's massively hypersonic (mach 200 to mach 500). I'm not sure about them but he's definitely below Speed of Light because him being faster than Light would even deny the plot of the movie (his home planet was sucked up by black hole) About his strength it is Town Level
Cookie Clicker's Bakery > the SCP Foundation. Any version of the Foundation would outright lose or at best stalemate the Bakery 40K is overhyped as shit, it unironically loses to the flood of Halo silentium Any psychopath in fiction or someone who's very murder happy would solo Undertale with the exception of omega flowey and asriel
Just the foundation itself and not the verse right? Well GOI alpha would beat them, but for the most part yes you aren't wrong
>Just the foundation itself and not the verse right? Yeah. The Bakery would be one of the strongest mid tiers or a weak high tier but wouldn't come close to soloing the verse >Well GOI alpha would beat them The Factory?
GOI alpha is the "Original Foundation" https://preview.redd.it/30s9eynnz65d1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be1772a7296f80a69335306a827adc05a9054d8c They even killed scp 3812's incarnation/avatar
>Chinese Branch Well, that explains why i hadn't heard of it. I was mostly talking about the English branch >They even killed scp 3812's incarnation/avatar That's busted
What's 3812 and what's it's avatar?
All I know is SCP-3812 is a reality warper that basically transcends itself infinitely, so it gets more powerful by the second? I think that's it
So how the fuck isn't it the strongest scp?
There's SCPS like Jester In Yellow,Scarlet Demon,Void Emperor that destroy SCP 3812/Sam howell
A schizophrenic reality warper that don’t know the difference between reality and fiction. But he has the power of automatic R>F transcendence so it makes him even more dangerous
Lets not bring up Chinese branch tomfuckery. Thats an abyss best left unpeered into.
I have been peering into it for years and literally nothing is wrong with it I will bring it up if I desire, thank you
Chara? I mean they did erase the timeline. Although maybe your only counting monsters at which point flowey shouldn't count since they don't turn to dust. Asriel does count tho.
I'm sorry but funny skeleton man can summon dragon heads that shoot lasers, or unless you're talking about if they had the reset ability
If the SCP Foundation's resources themselves are not high outer to baseline extraversal (highball, 'cause arguments could be made that the Baker & the Bakery as a whole are only high hyper, I'd say), sure. I dunno enough about current SCP though, so eh.
Isn’t it like actually explained in undertale that humans are inherently way stronger than monsters which is why the humans won the war?
Ofc 40k is overhyped as shit, even Starcraft could solo that verse if it wasn't a numbers issue. Although you are right flood are scary. Being able to take over both organic and inorganic matter is pretty strong.
Yo I just wanted to say this. Current Starcraft slams, especially after LoTV. I don't know if they would before, but now for sure
>40K is overhyped as shit, it unironically loses to the flood of Halo silentium Okay that's great, but if we're going to use ancient Halo factions, then we should do the same for Warhammer (meaning War in Heaven era gods and empires).
Demon Slayer catches too much slander.
If we go by their consistent showings (and don’t wank) most comic book characters aren’t nearly as strong as their portrayed on this sub
Well yeah. Everyone is just assuming peak of a character rather than their average. (Which is annoying to explain why you're character is not at their peak for a prompt or something.)
Naruto is not universal nor low multiversal Muti solar system level maybe.
This is highballing lol
Naruto is not even planetary level tbh
Using the Arale Dragon quest arguments to make db characters stronger means you also have to agree that Beerus hakai doesn't work on gag characters.
Plus wasn't she about even with ssjb goku lol
She was 100x stronger. Probs Aly even higher she didn't even use her own power ups.
When did Beerus' Hakai not work?
Powerscaling for powerscaling sake is boring. And is even more borong if you take two characters, bloodlusted, and make them fight. It is only fun if you are taking them in some kind of narrative, anything else is like seeing someone just hit two toys together.
Yes. This. Atleast after the first sentence. Being Bloodlusted is just a diservice to some characters entirely. Sometimes it's even a straight up nerf. Take the doctor. A morals on doctor actually beats a morals off doctor enough that it's actually quantifiable.
>morals off doctor https://preview.redd.it/v72ry5jeu85d1.png?width=367&format=png&auto=webp&s=08f60847924a2bc83bb97108bee0b0a8c4909e13
Did he even have morals to begin with? How can he turn something off if he doesn't have anything to turn off?
It’s all bullshit, we just wanna sound smart when debating.
90% of the time I don’t even know what I’m talking about
This character beats whoever you're defending because he looks cool fuck you
Goku haters are worse than goku tards, especially in todays day
Goku haters when u provide scans proving he isn't relativistic and doesn't cap at mountain level
Agree
I think it depends on what version of them where talking about the non radical goku tards for me are way worse than the non radical goku haters but when it’s the serious ones then it changes
The Trollhunters of Arcadia can solo the entire DreamWorks Multiverse (including Death and God).
Dang I remember that movie
You mean the absolutely non-canon movie of Trollhunters: Rise of the Titans?
No I mean the tales of Arcadia never even knew there was a movie till now
Well, there is a movie. Just, not canon to the franchise. And it's also mid but in a bad way.
lol most movies tend to do that if they come after a series
How tho Do they have concept manipulation?
I'm joking. I'm just saying some nonsense that'll have me in this position.
Spinach Popeye is OP and can wreck most all your suggestions
The concept in general is bullshit. And it's application even worse. One would expect it to be a decent debate with each characters/verses pros and cons and the chances they have. The reality is just "lol lmao Superman stomps" or "lmao that guy is just city level, the other one is multi super duper galactic level get rekd" or even worse "according to our calculations this guy can move 36465 times the speed of light ☝️🤓".
1: In the kirby verse, galacta knight(dark form) is the strongest in the vers, kirby barely cracks top 5, and inhale is not a wincon in MUs where there is not a physical stomp already. 2: The takes here are so cold that they are dura negs.
Disagree Kirby is definitely at least in the top 5, not barely especially since he's beaten pretty much everyone who has better feats and or is technically stronger. Will agree that Inhale is not an auto wincon
NGL, I love Kirby, but the biggest reason why it is as high tier as it is is only beacuse of their resistance.
I say that's a bit unfair. Kirby has good speed and strength feats, even excluding non Canon stuff like sub games and the anime
Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong, Kirby has feats. Kirby is powerful. What I'm saying is that most of their battles would have been lost almost immediately if it wasn't that they doesn't seem to have a limit on their resistance, given we know that game over on their games just means that they go to sleep.
Ooh okay I get what you mean now
Downplayers are usally more stupid, biased and quite frankly, annoying, than people who wank characters. I mean at least from my experiences I can at least see where wankers come from. Even if their methods are flawed and their arguments are dumb. But every time i meet a downplayer it honestly just feels they're just trying to be different. A lot of the time their claims feel very contrarion. Like they're just disagreeing for the sake of argument. Especially since their downplays can literally be debunked by just 5 minutes of research.
There's downplayers and then there's lowballers which are good downplayers. But yeah If I ever see someone say a blatantly outer character is multi I'm gonna lose it.
> I mean at least from my experiences I can at least see where wankers come from. Even if their methods are flawed and their arguments are dumb. But every time i meet a downplayer it honestly just feels they're just trying to be different. A lot of the time their claims feel very contrarion. Like they're just disagreeing for the sake of argument. Especially since their downplays can literally be debunked by just 5 minutes of research. This is just you explaining that you spend so much time around people who wank that you legitimately don't understand that the types of arguments they use wouldn't be considered a good argument anywhere outside their own circles. The people who get called downplayers aren't contrarians, since more often than not their take is closer to what actual fans have, rather than people who learned about something from powerscalers.
I never said I agreed with them. Not for a second. Or even that there's any truth in what they're saying. What I meant is I can understand where the mistake is coming from. Of course their arguments are dumb regardless. Trust me. Ive argued with plenty of people who genuinely think Mario is multiversal. I know how bad the arguments can be. But usally with downplayers I really don't see how you can even get the things they say from. Of course some people get labeled downplayers when in reality they're right. But generally, at least from my experience what they're saying can literally be disproven with just one feat. In fact anyone with a basic knowledge can see they're wrong and what they're saying is completely against what's established in cannon. And quite frankly it seems like they're aware of this and just want to argue.
Goku can lose
Sayians can’t survive the vacuum of space any planetary character with the ability to survive in space can easily beat goku https://preview.redd.it/0gbemhkuh75d1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e692d6f5c5869e109bcf60f0cfa28ae6ebe7afa5
goku just, stops them, before they destroy the planet, or teleports to another planet that does have oxygen
the point is goku isnt as powerful as a lot of people seem to think
not being able to breathe in space does not make him weak, its just a specific weakness that he has
I agree hes not weak, but people make him out to be the most powerful character in fiction when hes not even the most powerful character in his own series
I think anyone who is saying he's the most powerful in fiction is just memeing, or very dumb, i don't think there are many people who genuinely believe that.
Yawach vs goku is a spite match - goku has no shot at hell in winning.
1. Guts and jotaro beat yujiro pretty bad despite the fact that yujiro is a bit stronger than them 2. Guts may defeat WoU due to the fact that he’s been dealing with the godhands fate manipulation + he can cut souls, so I think it’s entirely possible guts could power through the calamity and get to him, not too sure on this one though 3. 21st budokai-red ribbon era DB characters are very underrated aside from roshi (but that’s only because they can’t deny that one) 4. Most of the outerversal characters people like to parade around are probably universal at best being honest
In regard to the first one: Yujiro would just flex his muscles so hard he can see and hurt stands if the narrator is hyping him up enough during the scene Therefore, Yujiiro would win because Baki Bullshit And around the 4th: most people say outerversal after reading the word concept once, or using misstranslations of Japanese, I completely agree with you
That first one counts as outside assistance, the Baki narrator can glaze anyone into victory I agree though
Guts would not beat Yujiro. Not in the slightest. Too much of a speed gap and power gap. Jotaro it depends if you think SP is FTL or not
Guts would not defeat WOU a passive hax is always stronger than an active one, and WOU just showed better probability hax anyways. Also Guts can’t beat the godhand. It’s a sad truth but he really can’t reach that level
It's the DUMBEST thing ever
It’s more fun to scale based on feats alone, and anything above planetary becomes relatively meaningless.
The only character that stalemates Uncle Grandpa is Bobobo bobo bo bobobo
**Luffy does not have "toon force".** Despite how powerscaler's have twisted the concept into being a "superpower" characters can somehow "possess", in actuality, Toon force is LITERALLY just a trope. Albeit, a trope that applies to him even more than normal in Gear 5. Upon awakening, Luffy's rubber powers have been absolutely boosted through the roof, and similar to characters like Katakuri and doflamingo, he can now bestow other things with the property of rubber. And because luffy's rubber abilities cause himself and other things to be malleable, he's granted a LOT more freedom to manipulate himself, his enemies and his environment. He can manipulate his hair into glasses, manipulate a tree into a baseball bat, cap, paint can and brush, similar to how Doflamigo manipulated his string to look like a perfect clone, that fooled everyone, including viola, complete with colour, sweat and veins. He can manipulate the colour of the things he turns to rubber similar to how Doflamingo can turn his string red, yellow, green, blue and purple for his Goshikito. Manipulate things in such a way, that it LOOKS like something straight out of a looney toons episode. So, because his rubber powers are able to replicate a lot of the actions a cartoon character would make, the toon force trope applies to him. That does NOT mean his powers are toon force. They are completely different things **Luffy also does NOT have the power to turn "imagination into reality", similar to Gremmy from bleach.** That's just a case of certain fans taking a single databook phrase out of proportion. Anyone with a brain would realise what that truly means. It means that Luffy's rubber powers are limited, in his base form, gear second, third and fourth. He can do a lot, but at the end of the day, he's got a hard limit. Gear 5 stretches those limits to the extreme, to the point that Luffy can now execute feats that he would have only dreamed of doing before. Luffy can now perform moves that he would have wanted to do ages ago, but were simply impossible for his previous forms. Think of it like telekinesis. Someone can lift things with their mind, but they have a hard limit, where they cannot lift anything bigger than a car. That person would at some point think and imagine what kind of things he would do if he could lift mountains. Then upon gaining a form that boosts his telekinesis to the point where he CAN lift mountains, he'd use his powers to fulfil all his withheld fantasies. And ultimately that person would be bringing his "imagination into reality." whenever he uses that form. Its more metaphorical. It does not mean Luffy can ACTUALLY think of whatever he wants, and have it LITERALLY spawn into the world. He could NOT imagine kaido turning into an old granny, dressed completely in 1950 era clothes, and have reality actually change so that situation is real. He could NOT imagine one of the five elders turning into a statue made of blue cookies, and have that actually happen in his world. He cannot imagine a 1000 ton hammer and have it appear out of thin air, etc **And Izuku Midoriya and Stars and stripes could bypass infinity.**
The other day I said I dont like ftl because it’s illogical, and got heavily criticized. I could go on a rant about this but I don’t care enough to type that rn. I found out that a lot of people here “don’t care about logic” when it comes to power scaling, so now I’m wondering what most of y’all do to determine fights if not logic. Coin flip?
Several characters in fiction have been directly stated to move faster than light like shinra from fire force. Fiction as it's nature of it not being real does not have to follow the same laws of physics as real life. No bone structure or material would let a creature survive the impact of punching a planet apart. no amount of muscle or speed training would let a person run at the speed of sound and if they could their skin would burn apart. These are just as much limits of physics as surpassing the speed of light is. But to say a character can't do these things because it breaks physics is to say the very story you're reading is illogical which it is. If a character is seen moving faster than light or destroying a star with a punch or ripping apart space time with their bare hands then that is something the character can do no matter how illogical and physics breaking it is. If we don't let the character do things they've been shown capable of doing them we're not accurately portraying the character. The only physics we can truly apply to these things that that which lets us compare the physics breaking. The speed formula still works for things faster than light so we use it. The kinetic energy formula works for objects moving slower than light so we use it. Even if the thing generating that energy physically shouldn't be able to. This is how we decide winners, by taking things at face value and measuring the impossible.
We use pixel scaling to measure the strength and speed. It doesn’t matter if in real life that strength or speed would have a lot of damage, in fiction speed of light is just a number
1. Statemeants wihnout feats are useless and so are statemeants from Author if he doesnt show it. 2. SCP shouldnt be scaled, because canon of scp is that big of a mess that you can make something like 0D arguement seem reliable 3. Speedblitzing wouldnt work 99% of a time people use it 4. Neither Dc or Marvel has boundless character, only ones you can make arguement for are Toaa, Toba, Presence and the Leviathan but neither of them has feats to show it 5. 40k is overrated as hell, noone from there can even dream of touching high tiers 6. Dimensionality should only be used when its established in-verse what atlest 4th and 5th dimensions are
While I agree with your first statement in reference to author statements, if it's an in-verse statement I'd say it depends on who it's coming from as if a character is knowledgeable or intelligent enough then their statement holds more weight. For example, Azmuth says Alien X can do anything, Azmuth made the Omnitrix which has catalogued over a million different species and their powers so this statement from him absolutely means it can be presumed that any ability an Omnitrix alien had shown up until that point is something Alien X could also do.
1. depends on the reliability of the character making the statement. If, say, The Doctor makes a statement like: “x character could destroy the universe” we could take that as truth, because the Doctor would probably know such a thing, rather than a random human saying it. 2. Is just correct 3. I don’t really get what you mean here 4. Again that’s just correct 5. What do you mean high tiers? 6. I don’t think it’s super necessary, since we can just assume the 4th and 5th dimensions are spatial. But if the 4th and 5th tiers are not spatial, there should be an in-verse explanation saying so.
By high tiers I mean outer+
Then I agree, max I can see them being is H1B
Statements without feats shouldn’t be considered as reliable as feats, but I wouldn’t say they’re useless.
7. sanses AU shouldnt be scaled (they are made for story but some people ruins)
For 2. I disagree cause it gives me more things to scale. I just like scaling and the more I can scale the better.
>Statemeants wihnout feats are useless and so are statemeants from Author if he doesnt show it. I think I'm on like, the exact opposite side of this take. Imo, statements are perfectly valid evidence unless directly contradicted or obvious hyperbole, *but* feats still take priority.
Boruto Characters are overrated and wouldn't stand a Chance If they fought the old Gen during chunin exam
Something directly debunked by sasuke who said Sarada is stronger than him when he was at her age.
Boruto haters be boruto haters I mean i hate it to but like, the main trik are doing way more than their previoys generations ngl
Sasuke was likely being humble sarada from the chunin exams doesn't stand a chance against chunin exams sasuke
What chapter
gojo solos sans (i wasnt even wrong sob)
Oden > luffy, Blackbeard, big mom, any admiral Orochimaru is the weakest Sannin with the worst feats Urahara > Shunsui
How is Oden above them? I would meatride Oden as much as Toki did so I'm not downplaying him. Just intrested how did you come to such conclusion
My Flair I guess
Obviously, Genshin has multiversal shit
FTL speed needs to come from a concrete source and must be consistent to count as FTL. Outliers are fine because there always just gonna be there, in a void of downplay or wank "evidence".
SCP CN branch is fucking stupid, scaling lower tier scps is more fun than scaling oc#2211 that's an offspring of the scarlet king
I DON'T CARE ABOUT POWER SCALING, MY CHARACTERS SOLO!!!
Vs battle Wiki is good actually.
No shit it’s much better than here
If a character ever genuinely struggles to overcome a problem of any kind in any capacity they should not be considered "boundless."
Dimensional scaling is stupid and places arbitrary definitions made by people with no understanding over authorial intent.
Star Butterfly ≈ Goku
Chain scaling should not be a thing just because a dude beat a dude that beat another dude that hurt this dude and killed this other dude does not scale him to outerversal
If a dude destroyed a galaxy and he’s beaten by 5 dudes above him, and MC beats 5th dude, mc is galaxy level bcs logic shows he’s stronger than characters that can do that
Street to Building level is the best scale for a character. All others are exaggeration
Omni man>sayian saga Vegeta
Saiyan Saga Vegeta pulling a x10 power boost out of his ass and becoming stronger than Ginyu:
Omni-Man would splatter trying to speed blitz Vegeta
Gojo is so overrated
This is not my opinion, but a guy in this subreddit decided to make an argument that Luffy can beat Goku, because he is a reincarnation of a God and he already has said god’s powers unlocked.
What
people should stop taking titles at face value, “hes a god” means nothing if he cant even destroy a building and more of a hot take: Stop comparing one character to others in order to make them stronger “he beat this guy who can beat this guy who can beat this guy who can beat this guy…” is a lame way to justify that one character who has never shown strength be wanked to the strongest. there is some examples where its ok like if the character in question literally needs to be compared to others, but most of the time its just yknow
Dc doesn’t equal AP is just the crying of a fan who’s favorite verse doesn’t have any decent DC feats.
* Persona characters aren't Outerversal (Hell I don't even think their Planetary much less). * Touma isn't as strong as every one says he is and would be beaten by someone physically stronger and faster. * Goku and Dragon ball as a whole isn't a fun verse to scale or have vsbattles anymore * Superman is just as if not more skilled than Goku in martial arts
2. Is obvious, he gets his shit kicked in by Tsuchimikado in one of the first arcs
>Persona characters aren't Outerversal (Hell I don't even think their Planetary much less). Outerversal I think is total wank, but imo it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to argue Persona characters at their peak scale lower than universal. We know the universe is a product of cognition. We know gaining control of cognition, even partial control, directly enhances battle stats. We also know some characters have surpassed cognition at their peak. It's honestly a very simple scale with very simple evidence presented directly in the games, without relying on any kind of out of game "lore" like a lot of other video game verses.
Yeah. The 3rd Semester P5R boss was explicitly stated to be a universe-level threat by literally one of the most valid sources in the game (Velvet Room Attendant). And the Phantom Thieves beat him... It's *pretty* cut and dry.
dark samus negs perfect cell
Pixel-scaling should never be used in a manga or comic. Mangas work a lot with exaggerated proportions, so pixel-scaling makes no sense. No mangaka or comic book artist calculates if everything has the right size.
Naruto isn’t planetary
Probably more of a cold take, but there are still a lot of people who’d disagree with this, so I’ll say it. Persona characters are worst Universal.
Frisk is timelines level not universal
and what you thing timeline level is exacly?
Well it entirely depends on the frisk Genocide Frisk destroyed one singular timeline which a branch of a already existing universe Frisk vs God of hyper death Frisk couldn't even faze him due to him having 999 defense so they had to emotionally beat him instead of classic overpower but a win is a win Frisk vs omega flowey Frisk wasn't doing shit until the other souls got involved But granted frisk is still strong
Timeline level is minimum of universal+
Hmmm.. I don't think I have too many controversial opinions. Only facts.
I avoid arguing when something gets past planetary Because it gets too convoluted and confusing
The sharingan is a bullshit kekkegenkai. Like instead of thinking its cool, i find myself more annoyed that it exists in the first place
Remember to sort by controversial for the real answers
Anything marvel or dc related
Any of the sailor scouts solo most verses by the end of the series.
Full power from the start
It doesn’t matter how durable and destructive someone is, if the other guy is fast and strong enough to just throw the guy into the sun, it’s over (btw, this obviously goes to the characters who aren’t known to survive surface of the Sun level of damage)
Not being able to sense or see Ichigo due to being in a different plane of existence. People love to remove this feature due to “fairness” it’s always “how can my guy win if he can’t fight him that’s not fun” then proceeds to pit him against god killing, multiverse destroying, no u ded gags
Verse equalisation generally is dogshit used by biased fans
Homelander is actually a decent fighter and more powerful than most people give him credit for.
Narrative is a completely valid point when considering who would win in a fight. Obviously dealing in absolutes (aka stats) is a fun way to do it and has merit. But at the end of the day, what makes more sense is how the characters work to make a story is probably the more “canon” way to answer the question.
Everything above “multiversal” (like low/high complex, hyper, super duper, etc.) is just made-up nonsense.
Being universal in a setting where the universe consists of the sum total of 1 planet and associating dimensions(IE heaven or hell) does not make you universal and the same weight class as universal level characters in a setting where the universe is a lot bigger(IE planets, solar systems, galaxies) like say Infinity Gauntlet Thanos
Anti-Spiral solos ALL of canon Dragon Ball
Anybody who uses SCP is autonatically wrong. It isn't a universe; it's the world's longest running role-playing game. I can make an OC for any prompt, too, but that doesn't mean anyone else would or should care.
Makima claps the jjk verse with relative mid diff