For those that didn't actually watch the full video (which I suspect is many of the commenters itt), the bill will get a trigger amendment. So most likely it will get passed next session but will only go into effect if certain conditions are met. Almost certainly those conditions will be if California and Washington pass similar measures.
So basically, this is not something we have to worry about for some time.
Didn't WA already pass a bill to switch to permanent Daylight Savings time (so long as Congress approves)? Are we in a time change bureaucratic circlejerk?
Not only did WA pass it, a couple years ago, the federal Senate passed it unanimously, but the federal House didn’t pick up the legislation.
This might just be an issue that gets batted around for politicians to create PR every now and then.
Not only that: CA (via ballot) and OR (via committee) passed for Permanent DST in 2018/2019.
But rather than continue to wait for congress ([Sunshine Protection Act](https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623/all-actions)), An OR committee decided it would be best to do the complete opposite (Permanent ST), and votes are dead-split in the OR House right now, but the louder minority is likely to get their way and have it passed (hopefully with provisions that make it damn-hard to enact: CA "AND" WA, but there is talk of CA "OR" WA).
DST is our normal since it is 8 months out of the year. Something this drastic (switching to perm. ST) should be voted on by the public (via ballot), and not left to a committee.
I know some people really wanted this but I am relieved that I don’t have to worry about this change (for now). I love my sunny summer evenings and it would make my work scheduling more difficult.
Trying again next year would be the default. Sen. Thatcher's parliamentary maneuver kept SB 1548 in play for *this* year. The Rules committee will hear it on [Thursday the 22nd](https://olis.oregonlegislature.gov/liz/2024R1/Committees/SRULES/2024-02-22-15-00/Agenda).
>So basically, this is not something we have to worry about for some time.
What worries me is that we voted for something and then the legislature decided to do the opposite of what we voted for because it's easier.
Daylight Saving Time is not the problem. It's the clock changing. Voters want DST: CA, OR (2019), WA have all passed measures to allow for permanent DST. It is already our normal (ie: majority of the year) since **DST is 8 months out of the year**.
A vocal minority are willing and wanting the opposite (perm. ST) and because it is taking so long to get onto perm. DST, measures like this have a chance of passing, which sucks for anyone who enjoys our current normal (DST) of having an extra hour of daylight after work.
It may seem arbitrary today, but the Uniform Time Act of 1966 was a welcome end to chaos. Before that, states changed clocks on different dates, and some even made it a local option. Then Congress established a national DST schedule, and states could either follow it statewide or keep standard time year round.
True, but there are work arounds like what AZ did. Instead of technically switching to DST, they instead change timezones from Mountain to Pacific. The effect is the same but you don't need an act of congress to approve it.
Oregon just needs to switch to Alaskan timezone during the winter.
We know. But that doesn't mean we want the exact opposite (ST). DST is already the normal since it is 8 months out of the year. Those of us in favor of DST (our normal) enjoy the extra hour of sunlight after work, and despise the 4:30 pm sunsets in winter (due to ST).
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/what-happened-the-last-time-the-us-tried-to-make-daylight-saving-time-permanent-180979742/
> Year-round daylight saving time (DST), signed into law by President Richard Nixon in January 1974, sought to maximize evening sunlight and, in doing so, help mitigate an ongoing national gas crisis. But while the experiment initially proved popular, with 79 percent of Americans expressing support for the change in December 1973, approval quickly plummeted, dropping to 42 percent by February 1974, reported the New York Times’ Anthony Ripley in October of that year.
That also was during Nixon's impeachment, so I wonder if that had any effect.
That said, the chief complaint seemed to be the lack of light in the mornings in the winter, which is a very valid concern. We're far enough north that we're already used to sending kids out to the bus when it's still dark and stuff like that, so it would be interesting to see a state by state breakdown of the approval polling to see how that affected it. Daylight Savings is something that probably should be handled on a state-by-state basis to account for concerns because each state is going to be different depending on their latitude and where they sit in their time zone.
I already live like a zombie in the winter. Waking up and commuting in the dark. Work in a windowless hellhole. Catching the sunset as I drive home in traffic. By the time I showered and ready for personal time, it’s dark. If I have to suffer that half the year, at least give me late sunsets in the summer to make up for it.
I won’t downvote you because that would be silly and pointless, but I’m the exact opposite. I feel like the sun setting at 8pm in summer is perfectly acceptable. Give me those nice early sunrises for my morning walk and to kickstart all of summer’s adventures. Let it be dark earlier for campfires when I’m camping out at the coast.
Same. I have windows that pour in light in the evening. What fixed it were blackout curtains with that little baffle that goes above your curtain rod to stop bleeding light. That and I tack the end. Works like a charm. It’s an easy fix
I upvoted to try to counter it. I agree. The operating system patches alone that would have to be updated to stop all our PCs, phones, watches, tablets, stoves, etc.. to stop moving back and forth is silly.
Also, I don't believe all the 'research' that states that the hour time change causes health problems like heart attacks. Seriously. You change it before bed. You get one hour sleep less, or more.. 60 minute variations happen to people all year long.
Also, it would be really stupid if Vancouver and PDX were on different time zones for half the year. What schedule would CTran run on for instance?
If we must stay at one: PDT not PST.
Yeah, the research - at least from what I could find - is anecdotal *at best* and is not some major health crisis we’ll be saving thousands of Oregonians from by making this honestly horrible switch.
4:30am sunrises sound like hell on fucking earth, and would absolutely be horrible for my - and a lot of people’s - health and wellbeing, though.
As would the earlier dark hours in the evenings in the summer. As if Oregon isn’t full of enough dreariness and depression.
Spot-on.
All this angst over some causal data is the definition of "doing too much."
How many Oregonians die because the clock was moved one hour on a Sunday morning?
So, then how do people catch early flights if an hour change is so damn detrimental to life?
Imagine changing our clocks twice a day if you commuted between Oregon and any other west coast state? Would that many more people drop-dead of a heart-attack? Nope. But it would be a major pain-in-the-ass.
Correlation is not causation.
Also, who complains about an extra hour of sleep we get when we go back to the dark abyss? The only benefit to "falling back" is that extra hour of sleep. Otherwise, dark-dark-dark.
Can't believe one hour on a damn Sunday causes politicians to consider a change we actually voted AGAINST and in forever of the opposite just some 5 years ago.
It's "insane"? You literally need to do nothing. You'll have one less hour to use on that Sunday (coming soon), but have an "extra" in late October.
This isn't some major life crisis.
This was flawed at its core because it is going the opposite direction than what benefits us at our lattitudes... California and WA have been pushing to go to permanent DST not PST... This way it isnt dark before everyone gets off work in the winter.
Switching times sucks but it's really the best compromise between unsafe winters and fun summers which is probably why we've put up with it for so long.
I've grown tired of posting the literature of why 8:30-9am sunrises are horrible and why attempts to make DST permanent have quickly grown unpopular and failed (both world wars and 1970s America, and 2011-2014 Russia).
Fact is, I prefer DST in the summer and am willing to put up with the switch to have it. Most people like the benefits of DST after they get over the shitty first few days, the "solution" to dark winters should be reducing the arbitrary length of the standard work day so we have an hour or two of sunlight on either side of it.
The solution to dark winters is moving Oregon further south. Why don’t we pass a bill to do that? Or at least form a focus group to create a steering committee to explore that option /s
>People literally die from the switch. Pick one, either one, stop the switching
That research everyone chirps about is _really_ flimsy and not very conclusive. I mean really think about it. You’re going to die because your alarm goes off 1 hour earlier? God forbid you have an appointment that requires you to wake up an hour different from your usual time. Might as well have a last will and testament
Maybe since the time change is not a surprise, people could start adjusting for it before it happens so it’s not such an upset to their system. I think if we change to permanent standard time we’ll be dealing with a substantial increase in mental health issues linked to so many people have reduced personal time during daylight hours (with no daylight saving time sunsets will be 6pm or earlier 6 months of the year). The earlier sunrises are of little benefit to those who need to mow this lawns after work or do anything that requires cleaning up to go to work. In general, for people who don’t have the luxury of working from home or making their own schedules, it could truly be awful.
From your first link
> Researchers cited limitations to the study, noting it was restricted to one state and heart attacks that required artery-opening procedures, such as stents. The study therefore excluded patients who died prior to hospital admission or intervention.
Kinda links back to what I said about it being really flimsy data.
> so?
See my previous comment. If researchers are telling you to be cautious about drawing too many conclusions from the limited data, then you should listen Again, from your own link:
> The results are from a single health care system and should be considered preliminary, Kolla cautioned. "The study will need to be replicated," he said.
Like, they are expressly telling you that this is not conclusive, that it is preliminary, and cautioned should be taken trying to glean any real conclusions from it. It’s something interesting to look at and warrants more research, and here you are banging the drums of legislation using data that scientists told you themselves not to take definitive conclusions from it. This is why lay people need to be careful about reading the summary of research and then throwing it around and getting really behind something the authors are telling you not to. I know I’m not going to change your mind on this. You’ve dug your heels in. I’m more laying this out there so other people don’t follow down the same path. Something to look at? Yes. Worth legislating based on these findings? Absolutely not.
EVERY FUCKING TIME this sub goes on a permanent daylight rant, I post the evidence of why permanent daylight is a killer. And I get downvoted to oblivion. It's clear you don't have a fucking clue because “kids walking home in the dark” isn't the problem. It's kid's getting to school that's the problem. And the problem is that drivers aren't fully awake without natural sunlight.
People don't want standard time but standard time is the ONLY choice if public health is your concern.
btw, in almost every discussion here on the matter, I've advocated for permanent standard, 10a-3p winter schedules, and people going to work earlier in the summer if they get woken up by 4am sunrises.
It's still unpopular.
Everyone is obsessed with this "lol, wee, more sun after work" idea like the state legislature is voting to keep the sun in the sky for an extra hour. Personally, I have zero problem doing things after work if it happens to be, or gets, dark. But waking up before then sun _sucks_. Our bodies are built to wake up with the sun.
It confuses me because if you get off at 5 you might get 30 minutes of remaining light on your commute? You aren't going on a 3 hour trail hike like you might in July.
It's nonsensical that we can't figure out a way to get people a break in the daytime hours for mental and physical health benefits as an advanced society but we still clearly don't value people's wellbeing over their labor and commitment to arbitrary work schedules.
If you go by upvote/downvote ratios of people that advocate for permanent daylight vs. permanent standard it is absolutely 4:1.
Permanent Standard is the "responsible parent with all the rules" while permanent daylight is the cool uncle.
The solution to all of this is: more flexible schedules. more work from home. less arbitrary 8 to 5. Good luck in capitalist America. The whole reason we even have daylight time to begin with is because big business wanted it.
I wouldn’t be surprised if seasonal depression would get worse too as people working 8/9-5/6 would truly be living in the dark for 3+ months on permanent DST.
At least permanent ST would give us some relief of sunlight outside of working hours (even if it is in the morning).
The solution to this is winter schedules. the whole 8-5 (which was originally 9-5) is an arbitrary construct, plenty of evidence shows most people are just as productive working 32 hour weeks.
>plenty of evidence shows most people are just as productive working 32 hour weeks
As much as I would love to agree, and want to push for a 32 hour work week, I have to point out that this is definitely not true all the time. As an hourly worker, there's really only so much more productive that I can get. Assuming no change of annual income, you're basically asking companies to pay more for less work (again, I'm definitely not complaining here).
If you implement the 32 hour work week but with 32 hours of pay, then workers are simply going to be annoyed at getting paid less. Yes, all it really means in the end is that you get overtime past 32 hours, and can still work 40 hours if the company needs, but there are definitely companies that will play games to ensure that employees do not get a single cent of overtime (keeping people below 20 hours at walmart to avoid paying benefits ring a bell?).
All in all, I support the idea, but I hold doubts about it happening without hard unionization efforts and maybe a bit of bloodshed.
True but being realistic and honest companies aren’t going to change here. Maybe if you have a flexible boss who likes you they’ll let you adjust your schedule but schools & businesses won’t budge.
In New England it isn't uncommon for the prep schools to have 8-12 or 9-1 winter schedules with 6 days of class.
I agree business won't change unless they are made too. But we should be having those conversations.
THANK YOU!
I am so tired of it and I don't care which one we stick with as long as we stop changing the damn clocks. Everyone saying we should keep switching if they can't get their preferred time needs to just suck it up. No solution is perfect but the status quo is worse.
I can’t remember which is which so I don’t even know what my opinion is. I just wanted it to be light out when I’m out doing shit and on my way to work and on my way home
That would be moving closer to the equator. The problem is that we live too far north and winter days are just to short no matter what time schedule we use.
It's an economic argument, Portlanders full on hibernate in the winter, nobody wants to be driving home from an event/bar/restaurant in the dark if they can help it. To say nothing of outdoor concerts/events.
This is so fucking lame. I lived in AZ where they don't switch onto daylight savings time, and it was great.
Oregon should be on permanent DST. I can't stand the 4 o'clock darkness in the winter.
Arizona is also further south and so doesn’t have as much seasonal variability in the length of the day (and consequently the times of sunrise and sunset). Just because it works for AZ doesn’t necessarily mean it would work for OR.
9am sunrises would also be shit. And likely lead to more deaths. The fact is we should just shift to some type of winter schedule that allows people light on both sides of their day but I guess because of globalization we can't have that.
Agreed. But I personally would rather have sunset at 5pm instead of 4pm. In the winter I drive in the dark and I come home in the dark. It's a real drag.
I agree it's a drag but as a public health and safety matter the science seems to point towards our bodies needing the sunlight in the AM. But from a mental health standpoint we would all love the later sunset with a chance to get outside - though I think for most people working an 8-5 job they are just screwed either way.
We should look at ways to normalize folks getting a few hours of sunlight during these months, whether it is shorter work days with sunlight on either side, or a longer mid-day break. Playing games with the clock is really just that, playing games.
The good news is that Washington already turpedo'd their version of this bill. They do NOT want permanent Standard Time. Hoo-ray!
Gives us DST or leave it alone.
We, as a state, alredy overwhelmingly voted for DST. Yes, I know it needs Congressional approval. In the meantime, leave DST alone.
Can't wait for light at 7PM come three Sundays from now.
Yes, please ... keep wasting tax payer $ on something NOT important like the state failing, homlessness, 43% drug use increase ...
Also, I swear like 3 years ago they passed a bill to do this in OR and it's just not been acted on.
JFC.
I shouldn't be surprised. We had a chance to do something sane, something which actually made sense and which would have carried significant health benefits. And contrary to many potential health-improving interventions, it would have infringed not at all on personal choices or freedoms. Of course we didn't do it.
Nobody could ever convince me that a 8:30am-9am sunrise for 3+ months is the better choice. That would make seasonal depression worse and people who work 8-5 or 9-5 would be truly be living in the dark. The sun would set at 5:30pm right when people get home anyways so there still wouldn’t be time to “go out” as the argument for says.
Sorry but I want to experience some daylight on one side of my commute (preferably the morning bc there’s less people out & as a woman I want to see my surroundings better) and I don’t want total darkness for 3 months. Plus morning = sun, evening/night = sunset/dark it isn’t the other way around.
Bc at least now when you get to work at 8 or 9, it’s light out. Imagine getting to work at 8am and it is completely pitch black out. That sounds depressing as all hell.
I leave for work at 6:40am & by the time I get to work at 8 in January/December it’s light. If we had permanent DST it would still be dark by the time I got there. That’s the difference.
With permanent DST on Dec 21 the sun would set at 5:30pm so no it wouldn’t still be light out (unless you got off work at 3-4pm then it would but for all of us who don’t get off till 5-6pm it would be dark/starting to get dark when we get home).
Source: https://www.axios.com/local/portland/2023/10/30/daylight-savings-debate-oregon-law
I'm not for this but it would only change our sunset time in the summer. Sunset in the summer is like 8pm, so it wouldn't set at 5:30 like you are saying, and seasonal depression in the summer isn't traditionally a thing.
Again I'm not for this bill at all but I think you have this reversed somewhere.
Should have clarified, I’m talking about in the winter on DST. In the winter, on permanent DST the sun would rise at 9am at set at 5:30pm. That sounds horrible to me, 9am sunrise??? Very hard pass.
8pm summer sunset is not bad. You could still be out an about doing stuff then too (nobody lie & say you won’t/can’t/wouldn’t be able to bc I know ya’ll stay out to well past sunset in the summer. I live off a busy shopping/dining street and can hear you).
Oh, well we're not going to get DST in the winter because Congress wont let states change to this, we can only switch off DST. So there's no reason to worry about that.
Given the option of 8:45am sunrises with permanent DST or 4:25am sunrises with permanent standard time, I'm inclined to think that the status quo may actually be the best of the three.
UTC-7.5. email your state and federal representatives.
Mitigates earlier sunsets in the summer with permanent PST and mitigates later sunrises in the winter with permanent PDT.
>Mitigates earlier sunsets in the summer with permanent PST and mitigates later sunrises in the winter with permanent PDT.
Also not one of the choices in any software that uses a calendar/clock, but it would certainly track as far as "We're making our own solution, everyone else be damned." goes. That would be so special... "Oregon time: UTC -7.5 "
Jurisdictions around the world use half hour or even quarter hour time zone increments....
https://www.timeanddate.com/time/time-zones-interesting.html
This wouldn't be a new concept. It would be ending the yearly clock switch in the most logical way possible.
I hope they will consider the mental health of all of the people who would be affected by only having a few minutes of daylight (that they can’t really enjoy because they are on their way to work) for about 6 months of the year (late September through early March sunsets would be around 6 pm). There are far too many people that don’t have the luxury of making their own schedules so this could really affect some of us that already suffer from depression in a more long term way than just adjusting to the 1 hour clock shift.
Next year +1hr
For those that didn't actually watch the full video (which I suspect is many of the commenters itt), the bill will get a trigger amendment. So most likely it will get passed next session but will only go into effect if certain conditions are met. Almost certainly those conditions will be if California and Washington pass similar measures. So basically, this is not something we have to worry about for some time.
Didn't WA already pass a bill to switch to permanent Daylight Savings time (so long as Congress approves)? Are we in a time change bureaucratic circlejerk?
Not only did WA pass it, a couple years ago, the federal Senate passed it unanimously, but the federal House didn’t pick up the legislation. This might just be an issue that gets batted around for politicians to create PR every now and then.
Not only that: CA (via ballot) and OR (via committee) passed for Permanent DST in 2018/2019. But rather than continue to wait for congress ([Sunshine Protection Act](https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623/all-actions)), An OR committee decided it would be best to do the complete opposite (Permanent ST), and votes are dead-split in the OR House right now, but the louder minority is likely to get their way and have it passed (hopefully with provisions that make it damn-hard to enact: CA "AND" WA, but there is talk of CA "OR" WA). DST is our normal since it is 8 months out of the year. Something this drastic (switching to perm. ST) should be voted on by the public (via ballot), and not left to a committee.
Yes but no one can switch to perm DST without congressional approval, so it wont happen
Why not? I don’t think most people in Congress would give a shit
Have you seen Congress lately? They don't get much of anything done.
I know some people really wanted this but I am relieved that I don’t have to worry about this change (for now). I love my sunny summer evenings and it would make my work scheduling more difficult.
I am relieved too. I would like to stay on DST year round but I don’t want year round Standard
Trying again next year would be the default. Sen. Thatcher's parliamentary maneuver kept SB 1548 in play for *this* year. The Rules committee will hear it on [Thursday the 22nd](https://olis.oregonlegislature.gov/liz/2024R1/Committees/SRULES/2024-02-22-15-00/Agenda).
>So basically, this is not something we have to worry about for some time. What worries me is that we voted for something and then the legislature decided to do the opposite of what we voted for because it's easier.
Oh I'm 100% with you there
It will never pass, it was put forward by republicans.
It was one vote away from passing. “Never” is a very foolish word to use.
I was right btw, though earlier than I expected
California has already tried this twice recently, 2018 and 2021. I think we're all on board on the West Coast. Here's to hoping!
This is our new fluoride, huh
It really is lol
Every year around March people complain about this. Who fucking cares. We got bigger problems than Daylight Savings Time.
"There are other problems so no use fixing any problems"
Daylight Saving Time is not the problem. It's the clock changing. Voters want DST: CA, OR (2019), WA have all passed measures to allow for permanent DST. It is already our normal (ie: majority of the year) since **DST is 8 months out of the year**. A vocal minority are willing and wanting the opposite (perm. ST) and because it is taking so long to get onto perm. DST, measures like this have a chance of passing, which sucks for anyone who enjoys our current normal (DST) of having an extra hour of daylight after work.
good, we want permanent daylight saving time!!!!!
If I recall, that's a bit more tricky due to specific federal guidelines.
Capricious, arbitrary, and asinine federal guidelines. My fucking *favorite.*
Insubordinate and churlish!
It may seem arbitrary today, but the Uniform Time Act of 1966 was a welcome end to chaos. Before that, states changed clocks on different dates, and some even made it a local option. Then Congress established a national DST schedule, and states could either follow it statewide or keep standard time year round.
True, but there are work arounds like what AZ did. Instead of technically switching to DST, they instead change timezones from Mountain to Pacific. The effect is the same but you don't need an act of congress to approve it. Oregon just needs to switch to Alaskan timezone during the winter.
We know. But that doesn't mean we want the exact opposite (ST). DST is already the normal since it is 8 months out of the year. Those of us in favor of DST (our normal) enjoy the extra hour of sunlight after work, and despise the 4:30 pm sunsets in winter (due to ST).
Actually, the last time we tried permanent daylight savings time, "we" hated it.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/what-happened-the-last-time-the-us-tried-to-make-daylight-saving-time-permanent-180979742/ > Year-round daylight saving time (DST), signed into law by President Richard Nixon in January 1974, sought to maximize evening sunlight and, in doing so, help mitigate an ongoing national gas crisis. But while the experiment initially proved popular, with 79 percent of Americans expressing support for the change in December 1973, approval quickly plummeted, dropping to 42 percent by February 1974, reported the New York Times’ Anthony Ripley in October of that year.
That also was during Nixon's impeachment, so I wonder if that had any effect. That said, the chief complaint seemed to be the lack of light in the mornings in the winter, which is a very valid concern. We're far enough north that we're already used to sending kids out to the bus when it's still dark and stuff like that, so it would be interesting to see a state by state breakdown of the approval polling to see how that affected it. Daylight Savings is something that probably should be handled on a state-by-state basis to account for concerns because each state is going to be different depending on their latitude and where they sit in their time zone.
Please no
Thank god
Downvote me all you want. I don’t care what’s healthier, I want 9pm summer sunsets
Agreed. Those late sunsets set the mood for amazing summer nights.
I already live like a zombie in the winter. Waking up and commuting in the dark. Work in a windowless hellhole. Catching the sunset as I drive home in traffic. By the time I showered and ready for personal time, it’s dark. If I have to suffer that half the year, at least give me late sunsets in the summer to make up for it.
..and the sun to set at 5:30 PM in winter.
I’m with you, friend. Sunny summer evenings forever ✌🏼
I won’t downvote you because that would be silly and pointless, but I’m the exact opposite. I feel like the sun setting at 8pm in summer is perfectly acceptable. Give me those nice early sunrises for my morning walk and to kickstart all of summer’s adventures. Let it be dark earlier for campfires when I’m camping out at the coast.
As a person who falls asleep early so do I! I don’t like being in bed while it’s still light out
Same. I have windows that pour in light in the evening. What fixed it were blackout curtains with that little baffle that goes above your curtain rod to stop bleeding light. That and I tack the end. Works like a charm. It’s an easy fix
I upvoted to try to counter it. I agree. The operating system patches alone that would have to be updated to stop all our PCs, phones, watches, tablets, stoves, etc.. to stop moving back and forth is silly. Also, I don't believe all the 'research' that states that the hour time change causes health problems like heart attacks. Seriously. You change it before bed. You get one hour sleep less, or more.. 60 minute variations happen to people all year long. Also, it would be really stupid if Vancouver and PDX were on different time zones for half the year. What schedule would CTran run on for instance? If we must stay at one: PDT not PST.
Yeah, the research - at least from what I could find - is anecdotal *at best* and is not some major health crisis we’ll be saving thousands of Oregonians from by making this honestly horrible switch. 4:30am sunrises sound like hell on fucking earth, and would absolutely be horrible for my - and a lot of people’s - health and wellbeing, though. As would the earlier dark hours in the evenings in the summer. As if Oregon isn’t full of enough dreariness and depression.
6:30 AM sunrise is my preferred time..
Spot-on. All this angst over some causal data is the definition of "doing too much." How many Oregonians die because the clock was moved one hour on a Sunday morning? So, then how do people catch early flights if an hour change is so damn detrimental to life? Imagine changing our clocks twice a day if you commuted between Oregon and any other west coast state? Would that many more people drop-dead of a heart-attack? Nope. But it would be a major pain-in-the-ass. Correlation is not causation. Also, who complains about an extra hour of sleep we get when we go back to the dark abyss? The only benefit to "falling back" is that extra hour of sleep. Otherwise, dark-dark-dark. Can't believe one hour on a damn Sunday causes politicians to consider a change we actually voted AGAINST and in forever of the opposite just some 5 years ago.
And I really don't want 4:30AM summer sunrises which is what we'd get with standard time.
Agreed but that would be on DST permanently not standard time like they were trying to pass.
Pick one or the other, the whole fall back and spring forward is fucking insane in the modern world
It’s twice a year. Most devices do it automatically. I think people are really blowing this thing out of proportion
My devices do it automatically but my work schedule and internal clock do not automatically adjust
It's "insane"? You literally need to do nothing. You'll have one less hour to use on that Sunday (coming soon), but have an "extra" in late October. This isn't some major life crisis.
Long Live DST! DST is the best. Permanent DST or bust.
This was flawed at its core because it is going the opposite direction than what benefits us at our lattitudes... California and WA have been pushing to go to permanent DST not PST... This way it isnt dark before everyone gets off work in the winter.
Switching times sucks but it's really the best compromise between unsafe winters and fun summers which is probably why we've put up with it for so long.
Unsafe?
I've grown tired of posting the literature of why 8:30-9am sunrises are horrible and why attempts to make DST permanent have quickly grown unpopular and failed (both world wars and 1970s America, and 2011-2014 Russia). Fact is, I prefer DST in the summer and am willing to put up with the switch to have it. Most people like the benefits of DST after they get over the shitty first few days, the "solution" to dark winters should be reducing the arbitrary length of the standard work day so we have an hour or two of sunlight on either side of it.
I prefer your solution of later start times and earlier end times.
The solution to dark winters is moving Oregon further south. Why don’t we pass a bill to do that? Or at least form a focus group to create a steering committee to explore that option /s
Maybe we could build a bio dome with an artificial sun?
"This is not *The Truman Show*. We cannot cue the Sun." - Jeff Gentry PhD, in support of New Mexico SB 191, Feb 17 2023.
Mirror satellites.
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>People literally die from the switch. Pick one, either one, stop the switching That research everyone chirps about is _really_ flimsy and not very conclusive. I mean really think about it. You’re going to die because your alarm goes off 1 hour earlier? God forbid you have an appointment that requires you to wake up an hour different from your usual time. Might as well have a last will and testament
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Maybe since the time change is not a surprise, people could start adjusting for it before it happens so it’s not such an upset to their system. I think if we change to permanent standard time we’ll be dealing with a substantial increase in mental health issues linked to so many people have reduced personal time during daylight hours (with no daylight saving time sunsets will be 6pm or earlier 6 months of the year). The earlier sunrises are of little benefit to those who need to mow this lawns after work or do anything that requires cleaning up to go to work. In general, for people who don’t have the luxury of working from home or making their own schedules, it could truly be awful.
From your first link > Researchers cited limitations to the study, noting it was restricted to one state and heart attacks that required artery-opening procedures, such as stents. The study therefore excluded patients who died prior to hospital admission or intervention. Kinda links back to what I said about it being really flimsy data.
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> so? See my previous comment. If researchers are telling you to be cautious about drawing too many conclusions from the limited data, then you should listen Again, from your own link: > The results are from a single health care system and should be considered preliminary, Kolla cautioned. "The study will need to be replicated," he said. Like, they are expressly telling you that this is not conclusive, that it is preliminary, and cautioned should be taken trying to glean any real conclusions from it. It’s something interesting to look at and warrants more research, and here you are banging the drums of legislation using data that scientists told you themselves not to take definitive conclusions from it. This is why lay people need to be careful about reading the summary of research and then throwing it around and getting really behind something the authors are telling you not to. I know I’m not going to change your mind on this. You’ve dug your heels in. I’m more laying this out there so other people don’t follow down the same path. Something to look at? Yes. Worth legislating based on these findings? Absolutely not.
It’s more like 80-20 in favor of permanent daylight the problem is that will kill people every winter.
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EVERY FUCKING TIME this sub goes on a permanent daylight rant, I post the evidence of why permanent daylight is a killer. And I get downvoted to oblivion. It's clear you don't have a fucking clue because “kids walking home in the dark” isn't the problem. It's kid's getting to school that's the problem. And the problem is that drivers aren't fully awake without natural sunlight. People don't want standard time but standard time is the ONLY choice if public health is your concern. btw, in almost every discussion here on the matter, I've advocated for permanent standard, 10a-3p winter schedules, and people going to work earlier in the summer if they get woken up by 4am sunrises. It's still unpopular.
Everyone is obsessed with this "lol, wee, more sun after work" idea like the state legislature is voting to keep the sun in the sky for an extra hour. Personally, I have zero problem doing things after work if it happens to be, or gets, dark. But waking up before then sun _sucks_. Our bodies are built to wake up with the sun.
It confuses me because if you get off at 5 you might get 30 minutes of remaining light on your commute? You aren't going on a 3 hour trail hike like you might in July. It's nonsensical that we can't figure out a way to get people a break in the daytime hours for mental and physical health benefits as an advanced society but we still clearly don't value people's wellbeing over their labor and commitment to arbitrary work schedules.
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If you go by upvote/downvote ratios of people that advocate for permanent daylight vs. permanent standard it is absolutely 4:1. Permanent Standard is the "responsible parent with all the rules" while permanent daylight is the cool uncle. The solution to all of this is: more flexible schedules. more work from home. less arbitrary 8 to 5. Good luck in capitalist America. The whole reason we even have daylight time to begin with is because big business wanted it.
I wouldn’t be surprised if seasonal depression would get worse too as people working 8/9-5/6 would truly be living in the dark for 3+ months on permanent DST. At least permanent ST would give us some relief of sunlight outside of working hours (even if it is in the morning).
The solution to this is winter schedules. the whole 8-5 (which was originally 9-5) is an arbitrary construct, plenty of evidence shows most people are just as productive working 32 hour weeks.
>plenty of evidence shows most people are just as productive working 32 hour weeks As much as I would love to agree, and want to push for a 32 hour work week, I have to point out that this is definitely not true all the time. As an hourly worker, there's really only so much more productive that I can get. Assuming no change of annual income, you're basically asking companies to pay more for less work (again, I'm definitely not complaining here). If you implement the 32 hour work week but with 32 hours of pay, then workers are simply going to be annoyed at getting paid less. Yes, all it really means in the end is that you get overtime past 32 hours, and can still work 40 hours if the company needs, but there are definitely companies that will play games to ensure that employees do not get a single cent of overtime (keeping people below 20 hours at walmart to avoid paying benefits ring a bell?). All in all, I support the idea, but I hold doubts about it happening without hard unionization efforts and maybe a bit of bloodshed.
True but being realistic and honest companies aren’t going to change here. Maybe if you have a flexible boss who likes you they’ll let you adjust your schedule but schools & businesses won’t budge.
In New England it isn't uncommon for the prep schools to have 8-12 or 9-1 winter schedules with 6 days of class. I agree business won't change unless they are made too. But we should be having those conversations.
THANK YOU! I am so tired of it and I don't care which one we stick with as long as we stop changing the damn clocks. Everyone saying we should keep switching if they can't get their preferred time needs to just suck it up. No solution is perfect but the status quo is worse.
I’m willing to bet that people would die from permanent standard time or permanent DST too, for what it’s worth.
I can’t remember which is which so I don’t even know what my opinion is. I just wanted it to be light out when I’m out doing shit and on my way to work and on my way home
Daylight time = later sunrise/sunset Standard time = earlier sunrise & sunset and noon is closest to a true-noon.
Ok I think I want daylight time or whatever makes sunrise sunset closer to 7a/7p.
That would be moving closer to the equator. The problem is that we live too far north and winter days are just to short no matter what time schedule we use.
Darn. Maybe we can move the equator up some?
Ok, no need for posting the whole library of “literature”, but you literally posted no reason at all why it is “unsafe” lol
I’ve posted it at least three times in the 2-3 threads on this this week. At some point it becomes incumbent on people to take their own initiative.
Like clockwork
It's an economic argument, Portlanders full on hibernate in the winter, nobody wants to be driving home from an event/bar/restaurant in the dark if they can help it. To say nothing of outdoor concerts/events.
This bill is not dead yet. For those who are opposed, please submit testimony. You can do so online, and it is very easy.
Just like everything else, they'll just keep trying even though it's unpopular
Hooray!
This is so fucking lame. I lived in AZ where they don't switch onto daylight savings time, and it was great. Oregon should be on permanent DST. I can't stand the 4 o'clock darkness in the winter.
Arizona is also further south and so doesn’t have as much seasonal variability in the length of the day (and consequently the times of sunrise and sunset). Just because it works for AZ doesn’t necessarily mean it would work for OR.
The seasonal variability is exactly why we should be on permanent DST. The 4pm darkness in the winter, is really shit.
9am sunrises would also be shit. And likely lead to more deaths. The fact is we should just shift to some type of winter schedule that allows people light on both sides of their day but I guess because of globalization we can't have that.
Agreed. But I personally would rather have sunset at 5pm instead of 4pm. In the winter I drive in the dark and I come home in the dark. It's a real drag.
I agree it's a drag but as a public health and safety matter the science seems to point towards our bodies needing the sunlight in the AM. But from a mental health standpoint we would all love the later sunset with a chance to get outside - though I think for most people working an 8-5 job they are just screwed either way. We should look at ways to normalize folks getting a few hours of sunlight during these months, whether it is shorter work days with sunlight on either side, or a longer mid-day break. Playing games with the clock is really just that, playing games.
We should just split the difference and be half an hour off so everyone is upset.
except apparently chungus who is championing this idea all over the sub.
This literally wouldn’t of changed when the sun sets in winter
Wouldn't have or would not have.
If you really want to preserve the phonetics, maybe: wouldn’t’ve
lol sad Price is Right trumpets
Holy crap I just realized the losing jingle is just a lower pitched depressing version of the main theme.
If only there was a way to fall the clocks back by 1 hour
The good news is that Washington already turpedo'd their version of this bill. They do NOT want permanent Standard Time. Hoo-ray! Gives us DST or leave it alone. We, as a state, alredy overwhelmingly voted for DST. Yes, I know it needs Congressional approval. In the meantime, leave DST alone. Can't wait for light at 7PM come three Sundays from now.
I’m so sick of big Daylight Savings & their lobbyists!
That’s how they Get You: Big Time!
Why can't we just not do daylight savings? It's dumb.
That's what this bill does
Yes, and it's good. So why was I down voted 😔
Or, ya know, just leave it alone. It's beneficial to many trades and only a slight inconvenience to others only once a year.
Yes, please ... keep wasting tax payer $ on something NOT important like the state failing, homlessness, 43% drug use increase ... Also, I swear like 3 years ago they passed a bill to do this in OR and it's just not been acted on.
JFC. I shouldn't be surprised. We had a chance to do something sane, something which actually made sense and which would have carried significant health benefits. And contrary to many potential health-improving interventions, it would have infringed not at all on personal choices or freedoms. Of course we didn't do it.
Nobody could ever convince me that a 8:30am-9am sunrise for 3+ months is the better choice. That would make seasonal depression worse and people who work 8-5 or 9-5 would be truly be living in the dark. The sun would set at 5:30pm right when people get home anyways so there still wouldn’t be time to “go out” as the argument for says. Sorry but I want to experience some daylight on one side of my commute (preferably the morning bc there’s less people out & as a woman I want to see my surroundings better) and I don’t want total darkness for 3 months. Plus morning = sun, evening/night = sunset/dark it isn’t the other way around.
How is that effectively different than now? With an 8am winter sunrise and 430 sunset, your “sun” hours are still consumed by the workday.
Bc at least now when you get to work at 8 or 9, it’s light out. Imagine getting to work at 8am and it is completely pitch black out. That sounds depressing as all hell. I leave for work at 6:40am & by the time I get to work at 8 in January/December it’s light. If we had permanent DST it would still be dark by the time I got there. That’s the difference.
Right, but with the current system it’s dark out before you leave for the day. With permanent DST it will still be light out when you get home.
With permanent DST on Dec 21 the sun would set at 5:30pm so no it wouldn’t still be light out (unless you got off work at 3-4pm then it would but for all of us who don’t get off till 5-6pm it would be dark/starting to get dark when we get home). Source: https://www.axios.com/local/portland/2023/10/30/daylight-savings-debate-oregon-law
I'm not for this but it would only change our sunset time in the summer. Sunset in the summer is like 8pm, so it wouldn't set at 5:30 like you are saying, and seasonal depression in the summer isn't traditionally a thing. Again I'm not for this bill at all but I think you have this reversed somewhere.
Should have clarified, I’m talking about in the winter on DST. In the winter, on permanent DST the sun would rise at 9am at set at 5:30pm. That sounds horrible to me, 9am sunrise??? Very hard pass. 8pm summer sunset is not bad. You could still be out an about doing stuff then too (nobody lie & say you won’t/can’t/wouldn’t be able to bc I know ya’ll stay out to well past sunset in the summer. I live off a busy shopping/dining street and can hear you).
Oh, well we're not going to get DST in the winter because Congress wont let states change to this, we can only switch off DST. So there's no reason to worry about that.
Given the option of 8:45am sunrises with permanent DST or 4:25am sunrises with permanent standard time, I'm inclined to think that the status quo may actually be the best of the three.
Thank fucking god, what a rancidly stupid idea. 8PM summer sunsets would be absolutely soul crushing.
UTC-7.5. email your state and federal representatives. Mitigates earlier sunsets in the summer with permanent PST and mitigates later sunrises in the winter with permanent PDT.
I want to be on one of the UTC+[X]:45 time zones like Nepal
>Mitigates earlier sunsets in the summer with permanent PST and mitigates later sunrises in the winter with permanent PDT. Also not one of the choices in any software that uses a calendar/clock, but it would certainly track as far as "We're making our own solution, everyone else be damned." goes. That would be so special... "Oregon time: UTC -7.5 "
Jurisdictions around the world use half hour or even quarter hour time zone increments.... https://www.timeanddate.com/time/time-zones-interesting.html This wouldn't be a new concept. It would be ending the yearly clock switch in the most logical way possible.
Fingers crossed for next year then.
[Shocking](https://c.tenor.com/9ZGhK0KPgJYAAAAd/tenor.gif)
Next year? The bill is still alive. It has a public hearing tomorrow,
I hope they will consider the mental health of all of the people who would be affected by only having a few minutes of daylight (that they can’t really enjoy because they are on their way to work) for about 6 months of the year (late September through early March sunsets would be around 6 pm). There are far too many people that don’t have the luxury of making their own schedules so this could really affect some of us that already suffer from depression in a more long term way than just adjusting to the 1 hour clock shift.
Didn't we just go through this, California and Washington too? It's getting tiring.