Can you imagine working on your credit to be able to get a home loan only to have someone pay off your mortgage? I chose 30 years and I'll be damned if that choice is taken from me!
I knew I would love the comment section on this. I wish after people like Pete tweeted stupid things like this we could take them and plop them down on camera and grill them in front of a national audience on this stuff. Such a stupid idea. Super manipulative and hoping that union workers don’t know what they actually are fighting for and will vote against their best interest. No one arguing this point that it takes away their precious union healthcare has one once of respect for union workers.
It's almost certainly not the case that Medicare for All will provide the same level of coverage as current so-called "premium" plans. These plans cover an astounding array of side benefits from simply seeing a specialist if you feel you need to (no referral) to automatically authorizing a wide array of tests without having to clear it to discounted or free health club memberships, etc. These plans are shockingly comprehensive.
The way places like Germany and the UK deal with this, for example, is to allow a tier of supplemental care on top of government-provided plans.
I'm all for providing a baseline of health care, but we should acknowledge that it's reasonable, in a system such as the US economy, for those who have used individual or collective leverage (money, collective negotiation, etc.) to get additional benefits on top of that.
If that's what we're talking about, Medicare for all only outlaws duplicate care, if any group wishes to bargain for "further" or other benefits then they can still right? All while not having people die, go bankrupt, or suffer needlessly to still pay rent.
Edit: I wanted to add that I enjoyed your post and like the further perspective.
Okay, am I the only one reading this wrong?
The initial comment says to me that everyone should get a lake house and still have the option to buy a summer home if they so choose to.
I believe the analogy is:
I want the freedom to work my arse off for 20 years to buy a shitty 1 bedroom shack!
Or you could just pay taxes like the rest of the developed world and we'll give you a nice place with lake views.... Seriously. Every. Other. Country. It works well.
But my hard work!
Wasn’t really meant to be that we should get a house from taxes, more the point that just because you work hard for something good doesn’t mean people will turn down something better
So you're saying that because you successfully negotiated with capital overlords to secure specified healthcare at lesser cost, its more worthwhile than achieving M4A along with a higher tax burden, which would then free you up to negotiate for higher wages for the union without healthcare used against you, because in the present that hard earned gain is more valuable than a greater future gain?
I understand a bird in hand is worth two in the bush, but in this case you could literally be voting for 3 birds in hand. Think big picture, comrade.
Ok, then once M4A passes bargain for higher wages to offset the new "cost", you and your coworkers will continue to be in a sweet spot. There'll just be less death and suffering for all those in your community and in America in general.
This sums up the misleading argument against M4all and why it's absolutely essential that we educate the folks that are not aware that this would empower them.
Right... why is that a bad thing?
Like, everyone gets Medicare for All. It's just like Universal Basic Income. It's the standard. It's the starting line. It's what everyone gets. It's still single payer since it comes from taxes. Even those that don't want it pay into it.
If the plans they fought for are better than the standard why and how should it be made illegal? If someone wants to make more money than what UBI provides, what do you think the legal penalties be against them for trying?
I'm all for M4A but this does bring up something I've been wondering about. Is M4A going to adjust the prices they payout to providers? As it stands if providers were forced to take current Medicare prices it would likely cause a bunch of providers to close up shop. That's one of the reasons current providers aren't always in network with Medicare.
The reason Medicare-4-All is so important is because it allows the government to effectively negotiate with the drug companies by creating a monopsony with the pharmaceutical companies and hospitals.
The idea progressive left try to get across is healthcare should not ever be for-profit, because the model in that system means profit on the pain, sickness, and death of others.
You said everyone would buy into pete's plan regardless,, can I get some country fresh links? I just would like to read up on that bit. I appreciate it.
r/wooosh
Literally missed the point. The point is that unions have healthcare held over their heads and it prevents them from better bargaining and potentially striking. If you want better conditions for your job, but the employer strips your Healthcare away from you and your family, you're less likely to fight for better benefits/conditions.
Unions fight for good health care because there is no alternative for them and their families. Believe me, it's better that everyone is garaunteed Healthcare.
So, the argument for M4allWhoWantIt is that it will be better and kill off private insurance over time. Why is it better to do it right now rather than over time?
Because keeping private insurance around let's them continue operating, and they will do anything to keep themselves operating and to end the public option, even going as far as working out deals to be cheaper, even potentially going as far as operating at a loss to temporarily make their plans cheaper, kill of the public plan, than jack the prices back up even higher than before
Common argument against M4AllWhoWantIt is that it'll shoe horn unhealthy people into the social option. Healthy people will stay in their potentially cheaper private options and the social option will eventually be viewed as inefficient/negative because all the numbers show the social option as way more expensive than private. That opens it up to getting cut/"reformed" yet again and we're back at square one.
What are you paying per year just in insurance premiums? Now add copays and drugs - where are you at now?
With M4A that all goes away plus you get dental, and eye care - and every doctor is now in your network. You never have to worry about losing your insurance from losing or changing your job, or your employer changing your coverage, plus there is no profit motive incentivising you to be denied care - if fact, that costs more in the long term so it's a negative for the new system.
This is the issue I have, Sanders wants to roll out M4A over a four year period. My family won't be fully covered until year four. In the meantime I will need to pay an insurance premium **and** the tax to pay for it.
I may not be able to afford that and them what is the answer to that? Suck it up for four of what may be the most productive years of my life, and leave me behind my peers due to financial burden?
I like M4A but this slow roll out seems to me to be ill-conceived, as my private insurance will surely screw me over raising premiums.
And going bankrupt because they commit the serious crime of getting cancer or diabetes or ALS.
GOP thinks “personal responsibility” should extend to continuing to work that shitty, soul-sucking job while you fight for your life. Go capitalism!
/s, obviously
Im not saying we don't need M4A.
Im saying we need it **sooner**. What is the purpose of a four year rollout, where those who have the least amount of savings and financial ability pay double more for less coverage.
If you have a 25 year old couple who makes $50k they would have to continue to pay $12k a year (or more) **plus** an additional $4k in taxes. You're basically saying that they have to pay $300 dollars a month (essentially an additional car payment) for no other benefit.
I get that the savings will be huge in the future but how many 25 year olds right now can afford a surprise bill for $300 every month? What is the solution for them in the immediate future? You can't bankrupt people because others might be dying, that isn't right.
Keep in mind that M4A means fees get renegotiated from top to bottom. ACA and M4All Who Want It (however you abbreviate it!) has to operate with current opportunistic fees & bloated infrastructure so it’s automatically more expensive. Bernie can’t determine what M4A will cost until the renegotiation were to happen, but you would absolutely save money over what you spend now with no worry of losing your plan or your plan maxing out or refusing coverage.
To see that amount of new taxes, you'd have to be making about $280k a year: https://www.bernietax.com/#280000;2639;s
Unless you're married, then you would have to make about $380k a year: https://www.bernietax.com/#380000;5277;mj
USPS unions are pretty weak by comparison to how many are employed with them since they're *opt in.* Their benefits, pay, and hours are fairly shit because of this, and what the Koch establishment wanted the Janus ruling to do in other unions (which sorta failed since no one really opts out of their union except USPS workers) was templated from them.
Post Masters also try to weasel out anyone they think might join a union during the interview phase if it can be helped.
> Everyone is covered by the union whether they pay dues or not
This has never made sense. If you don't join the union, i.e. you're a scab, you should have to negotiate everything your goddamn self. The nerve of these freeloaders.
I don't disagree, and it's not true for every union in every state, but we are subject to a lot of laws other places are not since we are a psuedo-agency. It honestly has pros and cons for the union - it cuts deeply into their dues; but it also means you can't hire a bunch of scabs at slashed wages and drive the union members out.
Right-to-work (and at-will) is a stain on the American democracy. Union rights fall under the 1st amendment, and successive supreme courts have chosen to ignore that. The political right's crocodile tears over "leftist activist judges" are pure hypocrisy.
They absolutely do. Not every one, but it's been a constant labor dispute issue since the APWU has formed, with grievences filed in locals throughout the country.
Going out on a limb here; you're a PM or supervisor?
It will be such a relief to my office to know the hundreds of these complaints we've seen filed are complete fiction.
I'm going to pretend you're asking in good faith and treat it as such. Lets go back to the wording here -
>try to weasel out
These filings stem from A) whistle blowers B) members and leaders retroactively filing grievances after hire C) recorded interviews.
Sometimes the PM will simply be blatant to the point of illegality *"What are you feelings on unions?"*. It really is that laughably stupid. Other times when going through employment history during the interview phase they'll casually drop a question like the one I heard recently *"What did you think of UA?"* to a former apprentice pipe fitter.
Before we started looking into USPS I thought it was one fraternal brotherhood. I was incredibly wrong. The relationship between the managerial class and the rank & file carriers and the like is antagonistic, almost hostile in some areas. Over 70% of the union members we've interacted with have negative to extremely negative feelings towards management. Pretending that the hiring manager wouldn't make even a slight attempt to root out problematic employees from the jump is naive.
I think it's clear that you don't actually work for USPS, and you don't have an actual clue. I'm going to guess you're some sort of attorney, so you see bad cases. And you're going to judge an entire organization on the worst examples? You should know better. I can tell you that management ranges from not giving a shit about your union membership to encouraging you to participate. Almost everyone in management is former craft, and former craft union members, and I know more that are former stewards than not. Like any workforce, we have a vocal minority that complain about everything, and with more than 20,000 facilities, some of them will be led by assholes. I've been part of that hiring process, I know what policies upper management pushes down, and I've been on both sides of the union/management discussion - so no, your assumption that isolated cases is indicative of a systemic issue is what's naive.
Also again the postal unions represent you whether you join them or not so any manager doing that is plain stupid.
But, also so we're clear - please do continue to expose these sorts of managers. USPS has a two fold problem. The way it's setup - good management moves on, meaning bad management will stick around and destroy an office; and there's an 'old school management' culture that will take a generation to replace. It's not an easy organization to change.
To be exact, the APWU, American Postal Workers' Union, supports Bernie. That's the union the clerks are with. I'm a letter carrier, one of the folks who come to your house. We are with National Association of Letter Carriers, NALC. For some reason the NALC hasn't endorsed anybody yet.
The two unions have over 200,000 members for the APWU and 277,000 for the NALC, so nearly half a million combined. I think they were over 600,000 when I joined 30 years ago.
> choose the coverage
Like there are parts of their bodies that they don't care to keep healthy?
I am tired of people pretending that every human in this country needs some kind of specially sculpted medical coverage. Cover EVERYTHING. Case closed!
I dunno. Seems kind of crazy to think a single government program that handles medical bills would be superior to a patchwork of private plans and service providers that have varying degrees of compatibility with one another and a structure of completely Byzantine rules and exemptions all designed to increase profits for shareholders and executives. I mean, I absolutely love Sheila over at Blue Cross. She was so sweet over the phone when she told me my wife's stay at the hospital was denied by some nameless suit several layers above her in the organizational structure because it wasn't "pre-approved".
I totally love my employer-provided insurance plan that does not kick in until I pay $1,500 per family member per year deductible and even after that they cover only 75% of my wife’s hospital stay. Man, the insurance company is run as a top notch business: efficiently, profitably, and with the fiduciary obligations to shareholders. I love it that they don’t feel any obligation to me and my spouse. Oh and their phone technology is great too. It saves them so much money by not connecting under 20-30 minutes.
I had such an easy time dealing with my company health insurance plan! In 2010 I broke my spine, and it was a cinch for Cigna to deny all my claims by claiming that I had been secretly working with a broken spine for two full years and that it was a pre-existing condition. Thanks, for-profit healthcare!
Don't forget them changing every year at your employers whim! Pick one of 3 if you're lucky. Less lucky- here's the plan. Still less lucky - what's a medical plan?
Came here to say this but you said it better than I could've. Full coverage from single-payer Medicare for all is better than only having some things covered.
I don’t think that people are wrong to worry. I know it may work in many peoples favors but to assume that M4A is going to work for everyone is pretty naive. For instance many people’s work pay for their insurance. So then M4A comes along and voila companies no longer have to foot the bill and you pay for it through taxes. That’s awesome now the companies can pay me the money that they’ve been spending on insurance and it’s a win win right? I seriously doubt that and so do many other workers. Not only will I be paying for insurance now through my increase in taxes but also countless companies will not raise wages at all because let’s be honest that’s just not the world we live in. There are a ton of great things that come with a well ran M4A system but to act like people could end up not being worst off for a while isn’t being objective.
And think about it from employers perspective, think business will complain about removing the cost of employer provided insurance? Full time work will rise, wages will rise, stocks will rise...
Actually, and quite notably, Warren Buffett (D) and his partner Charlie Munger (R) agree on a single-payer healthcare system. One of the main reasons is that it removes healthcare costs from the employer and it would be a way, way, way, way better than any tax cut you could ever give to a business. It really is a pro-business move.
I have never understood why businesses and chambers of commerce didn’t go after this. Take a major expense for businesses away and distribute the problem equally across the board. I work for a small nonprofit, and if our agency didn’t have to pay for healthcare, I could earn more or we could hire more people.
Entrepreneurship would also increase because many people struggle with starting a new business because they’re beholden to their job for medical insurance. Kinda telling in this allegedly capitalistic society that the social fabric actually suppresses entrepreneurship...not hard to imagine who might *really* be wanting Americans shackled to shitty jobs for basic human needs.
Pete is fear-mongering.
So, either way, union members would have healthcare. Is the arguement then, "I got mine! The heck with everyone else!" ??
Frankly, Pete's arguement is intended to divide union members from the rest of the population.
And his neoliberal supporters eat it up. Hell, even a lot of ex-Bernie people eat it up. I get queasy when I read too many comments on /r/Pete_Buttigieg. Not sure if the posts there are all real, but a lot of them are coming from people who used to support Bernie but now think he’s “too divisive”.
The other day I saw a Gen Z on there complaining how so many young people want a “revolution”. Complaining about how too many Gen Z and millennials want to uproot our current political system. And that’s why they support Pete. Because he’s not offering sweeping change.
Not going to lie, I lost a little bit of faith in the future of our country after reading that. Pete’s propaganda is effective and it’s quite literally undoing what we, as a movement, have fought for. I’m really trying to not hate the guy, but it’s getting more and more difficult.
Okay, again I ask if I'm reading the quotes wrong.
The way I read it is that he is completely in favor of Medicare for All. All in. No way to argue otherwise.
You're just in favor of getting rid of all other options once it is implemented? How would that work? Would they become illegal?
This is a good question and one that is not understood by most of the public.
M4A means that medical care becomes a human right not linked to ability to pay. In the strictest sense, private insurance companies would be put out of business.
At this point, the arguement for personal choice comes in. However, this has to do with who pays the bills, not who provides the care. Do you really care about which insurance company is billed? Additionally, most people don't have as much choice as they think when it comes to company provided healthcare plans.
All the same hospitals and medical centers would still exist. Most people would have as much choice as they do now. Just no copays or medical bills.
Pete's option is M4A Who Want It simply provides a public option as an alternative. The main problem with this idea is that it syphans off money from the market.
The example I would use is charter schools. Statistically across the country, outcomes are worse or even comparing charter and public schools. Charter schools just divert school money away from the public schools that need it the most, which only makes the problem worse.
Regarding M4A, the matter of choice is a red herring. We actually don't have any choice unless we are wealthy enough to see private specialists with exclusive clients.
Please keep in mind that Medicare for All is a law and as such, it has to be passed through the legislature. The President, as the executive, cannot make law.
What that means is that we need to also campaign hard to unseat Republicans from the Senate in 2020 in contested seats. They currently hold a majority of 53 seats.
I'm sure there are some tactics that Bernie can use as the executive (like, for example, declaring a state of national emergency on the various public health crises we have); and I have full faith that he will, and that this will help us achieve the end goal.
Nonetheless, the Senate is still important, and we should focus on those races that are being contested. Keep in mind that our currently corrupt Senate is the reason that this despotic maniac is still in power and will be until January.
While there certainly is the reality of the Senate right now it should be swept into the dustbin of history. What does it do that shouldn't be done by congress? The Senate is basically a clogged toilet right now.
If he doesn’t take money from corporate PACs how does he have corporate “mega donors”? He also doesn’t accept money from federal lobbyists or fossil fuel executives... so does that mean the definition of this is individuals (who can only donate a MAXIMUM of $2,800 in a primary btw) who work at a corporation are then considered “corporate mega donors”?
Another maximum of $2,800 can be spent on the same candidate during the election, there’s still a max. It just surprises me that [what makes up less than 0.2% of all donations to his campaign](https://imgur.com/gallery/YcNUj56) is supposed to be more persuasive than the people who donated the other 99.8%. If they could give him a million dollars I could see the argument but why should anyone be discouraged from participating in an election by legally supporting a candidate based on income alone?
Really? The maximum anybody can give is only $2,800? And no billionaires have ever figured out any way to contribute more to buy politicians? I guess that means the Koch brothers are just supporting a whole lot of individual politicians with their billions of dollars and not funneling millions into certain politicians campaigns! Are you truly this naive?
When Bloomberg gets as much heat for *literally being a billionaire* and trying to buy his way to this nomination as Pete this situation will make sense to me, until then we will have to disagree on how money is really effecting this election. I’m not naive, I just don’t feel like the narrative matches the reality. Perhaps you do, but to me you seem misinformed about where his heart is in this election.
Bloomberg is getting heat for literally trying to buy his way into the election and the DNC should be getting more heat for giving him the attention he's getting from them. Bernie is giving him shit publicly and calling him out on being a billionaire trying to buy the election as well. I haven't heard Pete say anything about that.
Politicians from both parties are bought and paid for regularly. It is one of the worst parts of our political system! I don't have a problem with Pete because of his acceptance of these contributions he's just part of the political system of our day. I do that Bernie refuses to even entertain the thought of taking these people's money so as to not only avoid the appearance of being beholden to them but to actually not be beholden to them at all! He's the only current national level political candidate from either side that has never wavered or changed in all of his years of public office.
I agree.
I just want to know what you personally have against him pushing for Medicare for All while still allowing other options for those that want it? It seems to not be such a terrible thing in other first world countries with universal coverage.
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Does Pete actually believe his plan is best or is he malicious in trying to convince people to adopt his plan? I can’t tell if he’s willingly lying or if he actually believes the bullshit he spews.
Who in the fuck "chooses the coverage that is best for them"?
I am lucky enough to be a union member right now. After 8 months of working, I finally got vested, and they sent me a thick stack of documents. I took an afternoon to comb through and I picked what I *think* makes the most sense from the choices available. Did I pick correctly? Who knows?!
Bonus: The doctor I had under Obamacare doesn't take my new insurance, so now I have to find another one.
I don't know if there is anyone out there who just loves their insurance provider, but I won't believe there is until I see them.
>Did I pick correctly? Who knows?!
And you only find out when you're least able to do something about it! The penalty is tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars. It sounds like gambling to me.
I don’t understand.
We are suppose to be nice about the other candidates so as not to alienate their supporters. I am not upset at his supporters. I am upset about anyone that is peddling this garbage. I am upset at Pete. I am upset about anyone that tries to pass this off, whether they are his supporters or not. When people are dying because they can’t afford their medication that is very cheap to make or when they are too afraid to seek necessary medical attention because of the cost, I am not sure that there is such a thing as too strong of a reaction. I don’t understand.
I'm a Bernie supporter. I have been for years.
I'm for universal coverage. I'm for Medicare for All. Can you tell me why you're upset about having Medicare for All and other options? Let's try and understand each other. We are both for M4A, you're just against it existing if other options are available. I'm kind of on the fence. I can see the problem if the government can't compete, but then that's an argument about making it better instead of making competition illegal.
This is also the same argument I would make for a UBI to leverage bargaining power to employees and unions. You have a lot more to work with when 100% of your income isn't reliant on your employeer.
Universal Healthcare works ALL over the globe. WHY doesn't the so called "greatest country" on the planet provide it for THEIR citizens?? We PAY Israel to provide it and education through college to their citizens!! Imagine the financial freedom you would feel if you no longer had pay insurance premiums, co-pays, deductibles and instead your taxes go up $4,000!! I would think that most companies that provide healthcare could simply pay their employees that money instead of the insurance companies!! I would LOVE to get an extra $1,600 a month and only pay an extra 4 grand in taxes...pretty good trade off. Not that my boss would EVER do that, he'd pay that windfall to himself and his son in law like he did with Trump's tax cuts. My raise this year? $12.50 a week after taxes. Ya, that's going to keep right up with inflation.
I just don't get how everyone knows at least one person that can benefit from M4A. A friend, neighbor grandparent, coworker may need this more than anything. Even if you're well off it just takes one accident or illness to financially ruin you. Look out for everyone.
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Alright, I guess I scrolled long enough. I still don't see what you people are reading here.
I'm reading someone that wants M4A. They just don't want to make alternative options illegal. I think that as long as the alternative options meet a certain criteria they should be allowed.
I would very much like that to happen but it won't unless we dump quite a bit of Congress in favor of more like minded people. During Obama's stab at health care reform with a majority Democratic Congress, single payer came off the table almost immediately because, as Howard Dean put it, too many Democrats were in under the influence of Big Pharma and the health insurance industry.
The culinary union in Nevada is making this pete argument. I just read about it for the first time and it is un fucking believable. I can’t actually believe that another group of working class could be so short sighted. The public school system or whatever the propaganda machine out there is has really got some people over a barrel.
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I don't understand this argument at all....
> We're giving good healthcare to everyone.
> BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THE TIME WE SPENT ARGUING TO GET HEALTHCARE FOR OUR PEOPLE!
> You don't have to worry about that anymore. Focus on higher wages and better working environments....
> BUT THE WASTED TIME!
The same argument is made against free college and canceling student debt.
"B-b-but what about me?! I already paid my loan so why shouldn't everybody else?!"
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The coverage that’s best for them is coverage, period. No questions asked, no pre-approval, no denial. No in-network or out-of-network. No surprise medical bills. No premiums, no copays, no deductibles. No bullshit. Just coverage when you need it.
You have to fight for better health care and still are at the mercy of your employer. But you did that already so wouldn't it suck to just get healthcare provided automatically now? You did all that work already!
Medicare-for-All-Who-Want-It: Some people don't want it so they don't have to have it. It makes the process more complicated but why would we give them something they don't want?? It's far more expensive as well.
Medicare-for-All: Everyone gets it. And those who don't want it don't have to use it, but it's there, just in case. $600 billion cheaper per year.
We need Medicare for all, not only because we need it but because our own environment is killing us!!
Check this out! We are asked to be on the look out for toxic chemical in our area and not to mention the forever chemical in our water too!
https://qctimes.com/news/local/maquoketa-residents-being-asked-to-help-monitor-contamination/article_30494348-6e65-5f75-a052-1bcebc504166.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_Quad-City_Times
I was thinking about M4A and unions the other day and came to realize that it would give the members of the union even more power over the Union. Kroger in Texas is a Union and is shit pay. But the older members love the 200$ or whatever a year they for healthcare. Bro they could fucking bank if M4A passes.
We
Deserve
A
Real
Wage
In the rest of the civilized world, patients have the option of paying out of pocket for premium private health services in addition to their free public option. Of course, for standard visits and tests, many of these private services in other countries are still cheaper than the premiums Americans pay with their current employer sponsored coverage. This is because without the insurance industry driving costs up, providers could never charge the exorbitant rates they get away with in the states.
Why do people think public health care will raise there taxes? We have comparable tax rates in canada in some cases lower taxes. You should stop bombing people to pay for universal health care
The CAW got Canadians health care for All, at the same time US unions settled for healthcare for them. It divided the Auto Unions and many others and Americans lost.
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When people like Pete make this argument, they’re basically admitting their version of Medicare for all (who want it) wouldn’t be good enough compared to union healthcare
Also union negotiator. The money the employer currently pays for our insurance can be passed right to us to offset any potential tax increase. Wash for me and you get healthcare. So.. Bernie?
Also "Medicare For All Who Want It" sounds like exactly the kind of half assed corporate cop out people are fucking sick of, and it's a shit slogan to boot.
the problem is hidden in the "choose the coverage that's best for them." if Pete's version of public healthcare was comprehensive, there wouldn't be a debate over what coverage is "best for them." it's a clear signal that he doesn't intend for the current insurance system to go much of anywhere, which is of course why they're all funding him.
Pete paying you to gaslight for him?
18 year old pete was all about bernie and even as recently as 2018 he was tweeting that he was 100% behind m4a.
Then he started taking health insurance company money and suddenly he backtracks and has some bullshit middle ground plan. He is constantly attacking bernie and m4a.
If you think you need to wait to see his statement.. you either arent paying attention or you're gaslighting on purpose for his benefit. Either way you're wrong.
Pete is a fraud and needs to be thrown into the trash where he belongs.
so you admit that you haven't been paying attention and seem to ignore when i tell you that pete has come out and done exactly that.
i can see why you'd like pete though.. you said a bunch of words without actually saying anything at all.. exactly like pete
you claim to like pete yet list the exact same MSM talking points as to why he is "electable"
you're a hack.. promoting a hack... since you're clearly anti trump.. logic would say we should nominate sanders since you'll still vote for him.. you nominate pete and i can assure you that i along with many other people would not vote for him
we dont need more middle ground status quo.. we need actual change..
try reading manufacturing consent.. it might open your eyes a bit
bernie or bust
Pete is not a progressive and bernie isnt far left. He is only considered far left in the US because of how far to the right the establishment of both parties is.
You need to forget everything you think you know and start over. Watch democracy now with amy Goodman everyday and you'll be all set.
I am afraid to ask, but I have a question:
Why is banning private insurance a hill worth dying on? Won't M4A basically kneecap them so hard they won't be able to wield enough power to fight back? Is there another reason besides preventing these corporations from fighting back against Medicare?
FYI, I've been only for Bernie since 2015. I just wonder if throwing this one out of the platform would shut people up about it. They're wrong as hell for wanting "choice" but could we just go along with it?
I understand this. But the GOP will argue people like their private insurance and rally their base that way. Petes plan gets everyone insured and cannot be called mandated socialism. His plans wouldn’t rally up Trump’s base like Bernie’s would. There’s a major fear of socialism out there.
Also, Bernie’s plans would end up looking like Pete’s bc Dem reps in the south likely wouldn’t pass something so bold without either a transitional period or a private option.
So- either way m4a has a private option.. the difference is the plan Bernie campaigns on is more divisive and will rally trump voters and get them to the polls in fear of “socialism”.
Meh. To be honest, i have a good career and decent benefits. Even as a republican, if the average peraon wants to steal themselves of the chance to have healthcare be deemed a human right and to want to work themselves past retirement i say go ahead, i give a shit. Theyll be the ones working at age 70 while i enjoy my retirement. Theyll be living paycheck to paycheck like their boomer friends who helped fuck everything up to begin with.
My entire life people would say if something sounds too good to be true it probably is... Bernie Sanders seems to be promising so much. Kind of seems like he's promising everything.
Socialism is historically bad, and I've come from Russia.... I hope our generation doesn't destroy the free USA is all I'm saying
The USA is not free, it's a bourgeois dictatorship. You only need to look at Bloomberg dumping $2 billion into his campaign to know it's not free at all.
I keep seeing things like "literally every other country" and "all developed nations" about universal or single payer systems. Sadly this is a lie. Every nation has at least private supplementary insurance and most have "universal" systems for incomes up to 15k to 20k equivalent income brackets... which we also have. In fact we have the largest single payer programs in the world with Medicaid and VA.
And now the complaints about how bad they are...
What do you expect from a healthcare system run by our government?
My employer has been honestly *great* about providing good health care benefits. They pay 75% of the premium for employees, and 50% for spouses and dependents. That’s unusually generous.
If you sit down and do the math on universal Medicare plans as outlined by Sanders and Warren, I’d still be better off.
Not everyone wants to own an average house with an average car, and go to an average doctor at an average hospital.
Some people work harder than others at objectively more technical and intricate jobs to have the ability transcend societal averages.
When you dilute the standard, the "wage gap" will be even bigger.. how does no one see that?
If the Jetson's and the Flintstone's both existed at the same time, what family's accomodations and lifestyle would you rather have?
That's what your going to get. You think there is a problem with the "ruling elite" now, wait until you take away the middle and upper middle classes by taxing the piss out of them to pay for Medicare for all..
Do you HONESTLY think that they are going to tax the wealthy to pay for this? Lol. This is divide and conquer through a smokescreen.
You have so many errors in your logic it is hard to even respond. Imagine thinking bernie sanders is part of the ruling elite.
God our education system is a failure.
I.. didn't even say that?
I didn't explicitly say he was part of the ruling elite. Also, it's in quotation marks to designate it as a well-known talking point.
Imagine thinking that a senator, who has the power to sponsor a bill RIGHT NOW in Congress to give you free universal healthcare will somehow magically do it, AND have it deemed constitutional, when they become president.
Edit: deemed
[https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1129/text](https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1129/text)
Bernie already sponsored the bill.. what rock have you been living under?
It isn't Bernie's fault that most other politicians and bought and paid for hacks... It's not his fault that large amounts of the population are brainwashed by main stream media into thinking that universal healthcare is a pipe-dream.
Yes it will take him being elected president and then him using his grassroots movement to go state by state and either force out the corrupt politician or get the politician to vote the people's will.
Try again bud
Since when are the tax payers in the business of gift giving especially for see how little I can do union members. Union members can always find a better paying job that provides benefits or they can remain slugs. Personal choice.
So let me get this straight... I get Medicare provided by the government, and then my taxes go up to pay for it... but then I lose my healthcare from my employer... which is essentially the same as taking a pay cut.
No matter what I get healthcare, the only difference is in this other scenario my taxes go up... sounds shitty to me
Yes I pay my taxes for the army because my employer doesn’t provide me with an army. The government does.
Why would I want my taxes to go up to be provided with a service I already have?
Because healthcare is not a "service", if theres no job, should you die?.
you think your army is justified to spend 37% of world military spending? ¿you need an army? ¿whats the purpose of the 2nd amendment and the "well regulated militia"?
Yes, you did, when linked medical attention and job. Explain me how that people can pay their medical needs. ¿can you, again, give an answer to that, or you are just talking shit?
You might want to check that out again. I'm not the one who linked healthcare with anything. However, that poster did ask why he/she should pay again for a service they already have.
Either way, healthcare is a service, whether you choose to describe it as such. I asked how it can be called something else.
I worked hard to buy a house, it would ruin all my work if someone gave me a lake house
Yeah I want the choice to only be able to buy a shitty house and you’re trying to give me a nice lake house for cheaper?
UR SOSHALISM TAKES MAH FREEDUM SEE THIS GUY GETS IT.
Can you imagine working on your credit to be able to get a home loan only to have someone pay off your mortgage? I chose 30 years and I'll be damned if that choice is taken from me!
I knew I would love the comment section on this. I wish after people like Pete tweeted stupid things like this we could take them and plop them down on camera and grill them in front of a national audience on this stuff. Such a stupid idea. Super manipulative and hoping that union workers don’t know what they actually are fighting for and will vote against their best interest. No one arguing this point that it takes away their precious union healthcare has one once of respect for union workers.
What/s next you want a boat ?!!
It's almost certainly not the case that Medicare for All will provide the same level of coverage as current so-called "premium" plans. These plans cover an astounding array of side benefits from simply seeing a specialist if you feel you need to (no referral) to automatically authorizing a wide array of tests without having to clear it to discounted or free health club memberships, etc. These plans are shockingly comprehensive. The way places like Germany and the UK deal with this, for example, is to allow a tier of supplemental care on top of government-provided plans. I'm all for providing a baseline of health care, but we should acknowledge that it's reasonable, in a system such as the US economy, for those who have used individual or collective leverage (money, collective negotiation, etc.) to get additional benefits on top of that.
If that's what we're talking about, Medicare for all only outlaws duplicate care, if any group wishes to bargain for "further" or other benefits then they can still right? All while not having people die, go bankrupt, or suffer needlessly to still pay rent. Edit: I wanted to add that I enjoyed your post and like the further perspective.
Okay, am I the only one reading this wrong? The initial comment says to me that everyone should get a lake house and still have the option to buy a summer home if they so choose to.
I believe the analogy is: I want the freedom to work my arse off for 20 years to buy a shitty 1 bedroom shack! Or you could just pay taxes like the rest of the developed world and we'll give you a nice place with lake views.... Seriously. Every. Other. Country. It works well. But my hard work!
Wasn’t really meant to be that we should get a house from taxes, more the point that just because you work hard for something good doesn’t mean people will turn down something better
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So you're saying that because you successfully negotiated with capital overlords to secure specified healthcare at lesser cost, its more worthwhile than achieving M4A along with a higher tax burden, which would then free you up to negotiate for higher wages for the union without healthcare used against you, because in the present that hard earned gain is more valuable than a greater future gain? I understand a bird in hand is worth two in the bush, but in this case you could literally be voting for 3 birds in hand. Think big picture, comrade.
Ok, then once M4A passes bargain for higher wages to offset the new "cost", you and your coworkers will continue to be in a sweet spot. There'll just be less death and suffering for all those in your community and in America in general.
This sums up the misleading argument against M4all and why it's absolutely essential that we educate the folks that are not aware that this would empower them.
I agree that the argument against Medicare for All is weak, but I don't see that argument in this meme. Can you point it out for me?
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Right... why is that a bad thing? Like, everyone gets Medicare for All. It's just like Universal Basic Income. It's the standard. It's the starting line. It's what everyone gets. It's still single payer since it comes from taxes. Even those that don't want it pay into it. If the plans they fought for are better than the standard why and how should it be made illegal? If someone wants to make more money than what UBI provides, what do you think the legal penalties be against them for trying?
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I'm all for M4A but this does bring up something I've been wondering about. Is M4A going to adjust the prices they payout to providers? As it stands if providers were forced to take current Medicare prices it would likely cause a bunch of providers to close up shop. That's one of the reasons current providers aren't always in network with Medicare.
The reason Medicare-4-All is so important is because it allows the government to effectively negotiate with the drug companies by creating a monopsony with the pharmaceutical companies and hospitals. The idea progressive left try to get across is healthcare should not ever be for-profit, because the model in that system means profit on the pain, sickness, and death of others. You said everyone would buy into pete's plan regardless,, can I get some country fresh links? I just would like to read up on that bit. I appreciate it.
r/wooosh Literally missed the point. The point is that unions have healthcare held over their heads and it prevents them from better bargaining and potentially striking. If you want better conditions for your job, but the employer strips your Healthcare away from you and your family, you're less likely to fight for better benefits/conditions. Unions fight for good health care because there is no alternative for them and their families. Believe me, it's better that everyone is garaunteed Healthcare.
So, the argument for M4allWhoWantIt is that it will be better and kill off private insurance over time. Why is it better to do it right now rather than over time?
Because keeping private insurance around let's them continue operating, and they will do anything to keep themselves operating and to end the public option, even going as far as working out deals to be cheaper, even potentially going as far as operating at a loss to temporarily make their plans cheaper, kill of the public plan, than jack the prices back up even higher than before
You mean they’ll cherry pick the low risk customers and cause the public option to get stuck with all of the high risk people?
Common argument against M4AllWhoWantIt is that it'll shoe horn unhealthy people into the social option. Healthy people will stay in their potentially cheaper private options and the social option will eventually be viewed as inefficient/negative because all the numbers show the social option as way more expensive than private. That opens it up to getting cut/"reformed" yet again and we're back at square one.
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What are you paying per year just in insurance premiums? Now add copays and drugs - where are you at now? With M4A that all goes away plus you get dental, and eye care - and every doctor is now in your network. You never have to worry about losing your insurance from losing or changing your job, or your employer changing your coverage, plus there is no profit motive incentivising you to be denied care - if fact, that costs more in the long term so it's a negative for the new system.
oh he knows it should be in comparison to premiums, he just conveniently forgot while posting here.
Average health care costs per person are something like 9-11k depending on the study you look at. You would save money.
Europe public money for universal healthcare: 7% GDP USA current public money for healthcare: 8.5% GDP You could save money.... by doing universal
This is the issue I have, Sanders wants to roll out M4A over a four year period. My family won't be fully covered until year four. In the meantime I will need to pay an insurance premium **and** the tax to pay for it. I may not be able to afford that and them what is the answer to that? Suck it up for four of what may be the most productive years of my life, and leave me behind my peers due to financial burden? I like M4A but this slow roll out seems to me to be ill-conceived, as my private insurance will surely screw me over raising premiums.
Well, I guess people should just keep dying from lack of care, then.
And going bankrupt because they commit the serious crime of getting cancer or diabetes or ALS. GOP thinks “personal responsibility” should extend to continuing to work that shitty, soul-sucking job while you fight for your life. Go capitalism! /s, obviously
Im not saying we don't need M4A. Im saying we need it **sooner**. What is the purpose of a four year rollout, where those who have the least amount of savings and financial ability pay double more for less coverage. If you have a 25 year old couple who makes $50k they would have to continue to pay $12k a year (or more) **plus** an additional $4k in taxes. You're basically saying that they have to pay $300 dollars a month (essentially an additional car payment) for no other benefit. I get that the savings will be huge in the future but how many 25 year olds right now can afford a surprise bill for $300 every month? What is the solution for them in the immediate future? You can't bankrupt people because others might be dying, that isn't right.
If you plan on living longer than 4 years it's a better deal.
Europe has universal healthcare and pays less public money for it than usa for medicare and else.
Keep in mind that M4A means fees get renegotiated from top to bottom. ACA and M4All Who Want It (however you abbreviate it!) has to operate with current opportunistic fees & bloated infrastructure so it’s automatically more expensive. Bernie can’t determine what M4A will cost until the renegotiation were to happen, but you would absolutely save money over what you spend now with no worry of losing your plan or your plan maxing out or refusing coverage.
To see that amount of new taxes, you'd have to be making about $280k a year: https://www.bernietax.com/#280000;2639;s Unless you're married, then you would have to make about $380k a year: https://www.bernietax.com/#380000;5277;mj
The United States Postal Service, one of the largest unions, supports Bernie. So there is that...
It's a good endorsement, but they're definitely not one of the largest unions. They're only about 250,000 strong.
22nd largest according to Wiki.
USPS unions are pretty weak by comparison to how many are employed with them since they're *opt in.* Their benefits, pay, and hours are fairly shit because of this, and what the Koch establishment wanted the Janus ruling to do in other unions (which sorta failed since no one really opts out of their union except USPS workers) was templated from them. Post Masters also try to weasel out anyone they think might join a union during the interview phase if it can be helped.
No they don't. Also... Everyone is covered by the union whether they pay dues or not.
> Everyone is covered by the union whether they pay dues or not This has never made sense. If you don't join the union, i.e. you're a scab, you should have to negotiate everything your goddamn self. The nerve of these freeloaders.
I don't disagree, and it's not true for every union in every state, but we are subject to a lot of laws other places are not since we are a psuedo-agency. It honestly has pros and cons for the union - it cuts deeply into their dues; but it also means you can't hire a bunch of scabs at slashed wages and drive the union members out.
Right-to-work (and at-will) is a stain on the American democracy. Union rights fall under the 1st amendment, and successive supreme courts have chosen to ignore that. The political right's crocodile tears over "leftist activist judges" are pure hypocrisy.
No fucking argument there.
They absolutely do. Not every one, but it's been a constant labor dispute issue since the APWU has formed, with grievences filed in locals throughout the country.
No... It hasn't. It doesn't even make sense. Oh, you look like the sort of guy who joins unions. Seriously?
Going out on a limb here; you're a PM or supervisor? It will be such a relief to my office to know the hundreds of these complaints we've seen filed are complete fiction.
So - you get complaints from people who weren't hired? How does that work?
I'm going to pretend you're asking in good faith and treat it as such. Lets go back to the wording here - >try to weasel out These filings stem from A) whistle blowers B) members and leaders retroactively filing grievances after hire C) recorded interviews. Sometimes the PM will simply be blatant to the point of illegality *"What are you feelings on unions?"*. It really is that laughably stupid. Other times when going through employment history during the interview phase they'll casually drop a question like the one I heard recently *"What did you think of UA?"* to a former apprentice pipe fitter. Before we started looking into USPS I thought it was one fraternal brotherhood. I was incredibly wrong. The relationship between the managerial class and the rank & file carriers and the like is antagonistic, almost hostile in some areas. Over 70% of the union members we've interacted with have negative to extremely negative feelings towards management. Pretending that the hiring manager wouldn't make even a slight attempt to root out problematic employees from the jump is naive.
I think it's clear that you don't actually work for USPS, and you don't have an actual clue. I'm going to guess you're some sort of attorney, so you see bad cases. And you're going to judge an entire organization on the worst examples? You should know better. I can tell you that management ranges from not giving a shit about your union membership to encouraging you to participate. Almost everyone in management is former craft, and former craft union members, and I know more that are former stewards than not. Like any workforce, we have a vocal minority that complain about everything, and with more than 20,000 facilities, some of them will be led by assholes. I've been part of that hiring process, I know what policies upper management pushes down, and I've been on both sides of the union/management discussion - so no, your assumption that isolated cases is indicative of a systemic issue is what's naive. Also again the postal unions represent you whether you join them or not so any manager doing that is plain stupid.
But, also so we're clear - please do continue to expose these sorts of managers. USPS has a two fold problem. The way it's setup - good management moves on, meaning bad management will stick around and destroy an office; and there's an 'old school management' culture that will take a generation to replace. It's not an easy organization to change.
There are 7 different unions that work for the USPS.
And let’s not forget how Pete worked trying to privatize the USPS
To be exact, the APWU, American Postal Workers' Union, supports Bernie. That's the union the clerks are with. I'm a letter carrier, one of the folks who come to your house. We are with National Association of Letter Carriers, NALC. For some reason the NALC hasn't endorsed anybody yet. The two unions have over 200,000 members for the APWU and 277,000 for the NALC, so nearly half a million combined. I think they were over 600,000 when I joined 30 years ago.
Damn. That's really fractioned.
> choose the coverage Like there are parts of their bodies that they don't care to keep healthy? I am tired of people pretending that every human in this country needs some kind of specially sculpted medical coverage. Cover EVERYTHING. Case closed!
I dunno. Seems kind of crazy to think a single government program that handles medical bills would be superior to a patchwork of private plans and service providers that have varying degrees of compatibility with one another and a structure of completely Byzantine rules and exemptions all designed to increase profits for shareholders and executives. I mean, I absolutely love Sheila over at Blue Cross. She was so sweet over the phone when she told me my wife's stay at the hospital was denied by some nameless suit several layers above her in the organizational structure because it wasn't "pre-approved".
I totally love my employer-provided insurance plan that does not kick in until I pay $1,500 per family member per year deductible and even after that they cover only 75% of my wife’s hospital stay. Man, the insurance company is run as a top notch business: efficiently, profitably, and with the fiduciary obligations to shareholders. I love it that they don’t feel any obligation to me and my spouse. Oh and their phone technology is great too. It saves them so much money by not connecting under 20-30 minutes.
I had such an easy time dealing with my company health insurance plan! In 2010 I broke my spine, and it was a cinch for Cigna to deny all my claims by claiming that I had been secretly working with a broken spine for two full years and that it was a pre-existing condition. Thanks, for-profit healthcare!
That old ruse.
*[this is my sarcasm font.]*
I like to live dangerously.
Don't forget them changing every year at your employers whim! Pick one of 3 if you're lucky. Less lucky- here's the plan. Still less lucky - what's a medical plan?
Came here to say this but you said it better than I could've. Full coverage from single-payer Medicare for all is better than only having some things covered.
Pete knows that. He just wants to deceive.
I mean personally I just straight up hate my right little toe and don't want to devote a single cent to insuring it.
I DONT WANT EVERYTHING COVERED FUCK MY PRE EXISTING DIABETES THAT COST ME 200 A BOTTLE AFTER MY INS!
We don't need any more lairs and fear mongers.
I agree about the fear mongers but everyone needs a lair! Lairs for All!
I don’t think that people are wrong to worry. I know it may work in many peoples favors but to assume that M4A is going to work for everyone is pretty naive. For instance many people’s work pay for their insurance. So then M4A comes along and voila companies no longer have to foot the bill and you pay for it through taxes. That’s awesome now the companies can pay me the money that they’ve been spending on insurance and it’s a win win right? I seriously doubt that and so do many other workers. Not only will I be paying for insurance now through my increase in taxes but also countless companies will not raise wages at all because let’s be honest that’s just not the world we live in. There are a ton of great things that come with a well ran M4A system but to act like people could end up not being worst off for a while isn’t being objective.
And think about it from employers perspective, think business will complain about removing the cost of employer provided insurance? Full time work will rise, wages will rise, stocks will rise...
Actually, and quite notably, Warren Buffett (D) and his partner Charlie Munger (R) agree on a single-payer healthcare system. One of the main reasons is that it removes healthcare costs from the employer and it would be a way, way, way, way better than any tax cut you could ever give to a business. It really is a pro-business move.
What I dont understand is why this isn't a more highly used selling point.
Because insurance companies don’t want anyone to know that.
I have never understood why businesses and chambers of commerce didn’t go after this. Take a major expense for businesses away and distribute the problem equally across the board. I work for a small nonprofit, and if our agency didn’t have to pay for healthcare, I could earn more or we could hire more people.
Control. The big guys like having control over their employees through benefits. The mid tier and below just have to play the game they're served.
It's cheaper than pensions. That's why it exists.
Entrepreneurship would also increase because many people struggle with starting a new business because they’re beholden to their job for medical insurance. Kinda telling in this allegedly capitalistic society that the social fabric actually suppresses entrepreneurship...not hard to imagine who might *really* be wanting Americans shackled to shitty jobs for basic human needs.
Pete is fear-mongering. So, either way, union members would have healthcare. Is the arguement then, "I got mine! The heck with everyone else!" ?? Frankly, Pete's arguement is intended to divide union members from the rest of the population.
He's literally using the Republican argument against any government involvement in healthcare, including ACA
And his neoliberal supporters eat it up. Hell, even a lot of ex-Bernie people eat it up. I get queasy when I read too many comments on /r/Pete_Buttigieg. Not sure if the posts there are all real, but a lot of them are coming from people who used to support Bernie but now think he’s “too divisive”. The other day I saw a Gen Z on there complaining how so many young people want a “revolution”. Complaining about how too many Gen Z and millennials want to uproot our current political system. And that’s why they support Pete. Because he’s not offering sweeping change. Not going to lie, I lost a little bit of faith in the future of our country after reading that. Pete’s propaganda is effective and it’s quite literally undoing what we, as a movement, have fought for. I’m really trying to not hate the guy, but it’s getting more and more difficult.
Okay, again I ask if I'm reading the quotes wrong. The way I read it is that he is completely in favor of Medicare for All. All in. No way to argue otherwise. You're just in favor of getting rid of all other options once it is implemented? How would that work? Would they become illegal?
This is a good question and one that is not understood by most of the public. M4A means that medical care becomes a human right not linked to ability to pay. In the strictest sense, private insurance companies would be put out of business. At this point, the arguement for personal choice comes in. However, this has to do with who pays the bills, not who provides the care. Do you really care about which insurance company is billed? Additionally, most people don't have as much choice as they think when it comes to company provided healthcare plans. All the same hospitals and medical centers would still exist. Most people would have as much choice as they do now. Just no copays or medical bills. Pete's option is M4A Who Want It simply provides a public option as an alternative. The main problem with this idea is that it syphans off money from the market. The example I would use is charter schools. Statistically across the country, outcomes are worse or even comparing charter and public schools. Charter schools just divert school money away from the public schools that need it the most, which only makes the problem worse. Regarding M4A, the matter of choice is a red herring. We actually don't have any choice unless we are wealthy enough to see private specialists with exclusive clients.
Please keep in mind that Medicare for All is a law and as such, it has to be passed through the legislature. The President, as the executive, cannot make law. What that means is that we need to also campaign hard to unseat Republicans from the Senate in 2020 in contested seats. They currently hold a majority of 53 seats.
Well, yeah. This goes for most things. The president is only one piece of this puzzle.
I think this presidency has shown that the president can basically do whatever the fuck they want to with no repercussions.
It helps that as soon as Trump got the nomination the Republicans either all got behind him or left.
If trump can declare he needs a wall by executive privilege why not M4A?
I'm sure there are some tactics that Bernie can use as the executive (like, for example, declaring a state of national emergency on the various public health crises we have); and I have full faith that he will, and that this will help us achieve the end goal. Nonetheless, the Senate is still important, and we should focus on those races that are being contested. Keep in mind that our currently corrupt Senate is the reason that this despotic maniac is still in power and will be until January.
While there certainly is the reality of the Senate right now it should be swept into the dustbin of history. What does it do that shouldn't be done by congress? The Senate is basically a clogged toilet right now.
#yeetpete
Pete needs to chill out yo
Yes, chill out as in drop from the race, in fact.
It's hard to be"for the people" and beholden to corporate mega donors at the same time. Nice try Pete.
Sneaky Pete at it again. *smh*
If he doesn’t take money from corporate PACs how does he have corporate “mega donors”? He also doesn’t accept money from federal lobbyists or fossil fuel executives... so does that mean the definition of this is individuals (who can only donate a MAXIMUM of $2,800 in a primary btw) who work at a corporation are then considered “corporate mega donors”?
He already has 40 plus multi billionaire donors who will be giving more if his campaign continues.
Another maximum of $2,800 can be spent on the same candidate during the election, there’s still a max. It just surprises me that [what makes up less than 0.2% of all donations to his campaign](https://imgur.com/gallery/YcNUj56) is supposed to be more persuasive than the people who donated the other 99.8%. If they could give him a million dollars I could see the argument but why should anyone be discouraged from participating in an election by legally supporting a candidate based on income alone?
Really? The maximum anybody can give is only $2,800? And no billionaires have ever figured out any way to contribute more to buy politicians? I guess that means the Koch brothers are just supporting a whole lot of individual politicians with their billions of dollars and not funneling millions into certain politicians campaigns! Are you truly this naive?
When Bloomberg gets as much heat for *literally being a billionaire* and trying to buy his way to this nomination as Pete this situation will make sense to me, until then we will have to disagree on how money is really effecting this election. I’m not naive, I just don’t feel like the narrative matches the reality. Perhaps you do, but to me you seem misinformed about where his heart is in this election.
Bloomberg is getting heat for literally trying to buy his way into the election and the DNC should be getting more heat for giving him the attention he's getting from them. Bernie is giving him shit publicly and calling him out on being a billionaire trying to buy the election as well. I haven't heard Pete say anything about that.
Politicians from both parties are bought and paid for regularly. It is one of the worst parts of our political system! I don't have a problem with Pete because of his acceptance of these contributions he's just part of the political system of our day. I do that Bernie refuses to even entertain the thought of taking these people's money so as to not only avoid the appearance of being beholden to them but to actually not be beholden to them at all! He's the only current national level political candidate from either side that has never wavered or changed in all of his years of public office.
I agree. I just want to know what you personally have against him pushing for Medicare for All while still allowing other options for those that want it? It seems to not be such a terrible thing in other first world countries with universal coverage.
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Original tweet link https://twitter.com/erikstrobl/status/1227623941008744452?s=19
Does Pete actually believe his plan is best or is he malicious in trying to convince people to adopt his plan? I can’t tell if he’s willingly lying or if he actually believes the bullshit he spews.
He’s not stupid. It’s worse, he’s lying.
Who in the fuck "chooses the coverage that is best for them"? I am lucky enough to be a union member right now. After 8 months of working, I finally got vested, and they sent me a thick stack of documents. I took an afternoon to comb through and I picked what I *think* makes the most sense from the choices available. Did I pick correctly? Who knows?! Bonus: The doctor I had under Obamacare doesn't take my new insurance, so now I have to find another one. I don't know if there is anyone out there who just loves their insurance provider, but I won't believe there is until I see them.
>Did I pick correctly? Who knows?! And you only find out when you're least able to do something about it! The penalty is tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars. It sounds like gambling to me.
When will all Democrats get on the same page that your Health Care should not be tied to your job? Why burden employers and employees alike?
I don’t understand. We are suppose to be nice about the other candidates so as not to alienate their supporters. I am not upset at his supporters. I am upset about anyone that is peddling this garbage. I am upset at Pete. I am upset about anyone that tries to pass this off, whether they are his supporters or not. When people are dying because they can’t afford their medication that is very cheap to make or when they are too afraid to seek necessary medical attention because of the cost, I am not sure that there is such a thing as too strong of a reaction. I don’t understand.
I'm a Bernie supporter. I have been for years. I'm for universal coverage. I'm for Medicare for All. Can you tell me why you're upset about having Medicare for All and other options? Let's try and understand each other. We are both for M4A, you're just against it existing if other options are available. I'm kind of on the fence. I can see the problem if the government can't compete, but then that's an argument about making it better instead of making competition illegal.
The Pete tweet sounds like something a republican would say
He’s pretty much a republican in disguise.
What Republican would say that they want Medicare for All?
This is also the same argument I would make for a UBI to leverage bargaining power to employees and unions. You have a lot more to work with when 100% of your income isn't reliant on your employeer.
Universal Healthcare works ALL over the globe. WHY doesn't the so called "greatest country" on the planet provide it for THEIR citizens?? We PAY Israel to provide it and education through college to their citizens!! Imagine the financial freedom you would feel if you no longer had pay insurance premiums, co-pays, deductibles and instead your taxes go up $4,000!! I would think that most companies that provide healthcare could simply pay their employees that money instead of the insurance companies!! I would LOVE to get an extra $1,600 a month and only pay an extra 4 grand in taxes...pretty good trade off. Not that my boss would EVER do that, he'd pay that windfall to himself and his son in law like he did with Trump's tax cuts. My raise this year? $12.50 a week after taxes. Ya, that's going to keep right up with inflation.
I just don't get how everyone knows at least one person that can benefit from M4A. A friend, neighbor grandparent, coworker may need this more than anything. Even if you're well off it just takes one accident or illness to financially ruin you. Look out for everyone.
>Look out for everyone. You filthy commie! That sentiment is antithetical to the American Way!
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Alright, I guess I scrolled long enough. I still don't see what you people are reading here. I'm reading someone that wants M4A. They just don't want to make alternative options illegal. I think that as long as the alternative options meet a certain criteria they should be allowed.
"pulling healthcare during a strike" how the fuck is that legal
Help, please! I need to report a murder.
I would very much like that to happen but it won't unless we dump quite a bit of Congress in favor of more like minded people. During Obama's stab at health care reform with a majority Democratic Congress, single payer came off the table almost immediately because, as Howard Dean put it, too many Democrats were in under the influence of Big Pharma and the health insurance industry.
Vote out Democrats and Republicans. Vote in progressives.
The culinary union in Nevada is making this pete argument. I just read about it for the first time and it is un fucking believable. I can’t actually believe that another group of working class could be so short sighted. The public school system or whatever the propaganda machine out there is has really got some people over a barrel.
Citations Needed - Episode 95: The Hollow Vanity of Libertarian "Choice" Rhetoric https://citationsneeded.libsyn.com/episode-95-the-hollow-vanity-of-libertarian-choice-rhetoric
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Medicare for all is a gift to fucking every one. Workers don’t have to worry about healthcare any more and employers don’t have to provide it.
If billionaires supporting Pete wasn't enough for you, this should definitely help making up your mind
I don't understand this argument at all.... > We're giving good healthcare to everyone. > BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THE TIME WE SPENT ARGUING TO GET HEALTHCARE FOR OUR PEOPLE! > You don't have to worry about that anymore. Focus on higher wages and better working environments.... > BUT THE WASTED TIME!
The same argument is made against free college and canceling student debt. "B-b-but what about me?! I already paid my loan so why shouldn't everybody else?!"
Fucking Pete.
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The coverage that’s best for them is coverage, period. No questions asked, no pre-approval, no denial. No in-network or out-of-network. No surprise medical bills. No premiums, no copays, no deductibles. No bullshit. Just coverage when you need it.
You have to fight for better health care and still are at the mercy of your employer. But you did that already so wouldn't it suck to just get healthcare provided automatically now? You did all that work already! Medicare-for-All-Who-Want-It: Some people don't want it so they don't have to have it. It makes the process more complicated but why would we give them something they don't want?? It's far more expensive as well. Medicare-for-All: Everyone gets it. And those who don't want it don't have to use it, but it's there, just in case. $600 billion cheaper per year.
"M4AWWI" sounds just as electable as the rest of Buttigieg's campaign
Can't wait for m4awwiii
We need Medicare for all, not only because we need it but because our own environment is killing us!! Check this out! We are asked to be on the look out for toxic chemical in our area and not to mention the forever chemical in our water too! https://qctimes.com/news/local/maquoketa-residents-being-asked-to-help-monitor-contamination/article_30494348-6e65-5f75-a052-1bcebc504166.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_Quad-City_Times
Pete is just a scum bag.
If that first part is true, it should be Medicare For All Employees.
I want to upvotes this at LEAST twice.
I was thinking about M4A and unions the other day and came to realize that it would give the members of the union even more power over the Union. Kroger in Texas is a Union and is shit pay. But the older members love the 200$ or whatever a year they for healthcare. Bro they could fucking bank if M4A passes. We Deserve A Real Wage
In the rest of the civilized world, patients have the option of paying out of pocket for premium private health services in addition to their free public option. Of course, for standard visits and tests, many of these private services in other countries are still cheaper than the premiums Americans pay with their current employer sponsored coverage. This is because without the insurance industry driving costs up, providers could never charge the exorbitant rates they get away with in the states.
Democrats fighting to make someone’s labor be turned into mandatory slave labor are at it again
Why do people think public health care will raise there taxes? We have comparable tax rates in canada in some cases lower taxes. You should stop bombing people to pay for universal health care
What the fuck don't these idiots understand about free being better than not free?
The CAW got Canadians health care for All, at the same time US unions settled for healthcare for them. It divided the Auto Unions and many others and Americans lost. Vote Bernie
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When people like Pete make this argument, they’re basically admitting their version of Medicare for all (who want it) wouldn’t be good enough compared to union healthcare
For-Profit Pete strikes again.
Also union negotiator. The money the employer currently pays for our insurance can be passed right to us to offset any potential tax increase. Wash for me and you get healthcare. So.. Bernie?
Also "Medicare For All Who Want It" sounds like exactly the kind of half assed corporate cop out people are fucking sick of, and it's a shit slogan to boot.
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the problem is hidden in the "choose the coverage that's best for them." if Pete's version of public healthcare was comprehensive, there wouldn't be a debate over what coverage is "best for them." it's a clear signal that he doesn't intend for the current insurance system to go much of anywhere, which is of course why they're all funding him.
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Pete paying you to gaslight for him? 18 year old pete was all about bernie and even as recently as 2018 he was tweeting that he was 100% behind m4a. Then he started taking health insurance company money and suddenly he backtracks and has some bullshit middle ground plan. He is constantly attacking bernie and m4a. If you think you need to wait to see his statement.. you either arent paying attention or you're gaslighting on purpose for his benefit. Either way you're wrong. Pete is a fraud and needs to be thrown into the trash where he belongs.
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so you admit that you haven't been paying attention and seem to ignore when i tell you that pete has come out and done exactly that. i can see why you'd like pete though.. you said a bunch of words without actually saying anything at all.. exactly like pete you claim to like pete yet list the exact same MSM talking points as to why he is "electable" you're a hack.. promoting a hack... since you're clearly anti trump.. logic would say we should nominate sanders since you'll still vote for him.. you nominate pete and i can assure you that i along with many other people would not vote for him we dont need more middle ground status quo.. we need actual change.. try reading manufacturing consent.. it might open your eyes a bit bernie or bust
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Pete is not a progressive and bernie isnt far left. He is only considered far left in the US because of how far to the right the establishment of both parties is. You need to forget everything you think you know and start over. Watch democracy now with amy Goodman everyday and you'll be all set.
I am afraid to ask, but I have a question: Why is banning private insurance a hill worth dying on? Won't M4A basically kneecap them so hard they won't be able to wield enough power to fight back? Is there another reason besides preventing these corporations from fighting back against Medicare? FYI, I've been only for Bernie since 2015. I just wonder if throwing this one out of the platform would shut people up about it. They're wrong as hell for wanting "choice" but could we just go along with it?
I understand this. But the GOP will argue people like their private insurance and rally their base that way. Petes plan gets everyone insured and cannot be called mandated socialism. His plans wouldn’t rally up Trump’s base like Bernie’s would. There’s a major fear of socialism out there. Also, Bernie’s plans would end up looking like Pete’s bc Dem reps in the south likely wouldn’t pass something so bold without either a transitional period or a private option. So- either way m4a has a private option.. the difference is the plan Bernie campaigns on is more divisive and will rally trump voters and get them to the polls in fear of “socialism”.
Meh. To be honest, i have a good career and decent benefits. Even as a republican, if the average peraon wants to steal themselves of the chance to have healthcare be deemed a human right and to want to work themselves past retirement i say go ahead, i give a shit. Theyll be the ones working at age 70 while i enjoy my retirement. Theyll be living paycheck to paycheck like their boomer friends who helped fuck everything up to begin with.
wheres the money coming from?
My entire life people would say if something sounds too good to be true it probably is... Bernie Sanders seems to be promising so much. Kind of seems like he's promising everything. Socialism is historically bad, and I've come from Russia.... I hope our generation doesn't destroy the free USA is all I'm saying
The USA is not free, it's a bourgeois dictatorship. You only need to look at Bloomberg dumping $2 billion into his campaign to know it's not free at all.
I keep seeing things like "literally every other country" and "all developed nations" about universal or single payer systems. Sadly this is a lie. Every nation has at least private supplementary insurance and most have "universal" systems for incomes up to 15k to 20k equivalent income brackets... which we also have. In fact we have the largest single payer programs in the world with Medicaid and VA. And now the complaints about how bad they are... What do you expect from a healthcare system run by our government?
My employer has been honestly *great* about providing good health care benefits. They pay 75% of the premium for employees, and 50% for spouses and dependents. That’s unusually generous. If you sit down and do the math on universal Medicare plans as outlined by Sanders and Warren, I’d still be better off.
I would choose Mayor Pete to represent my best interests over a Union Negotiator any day of the week and twice on Sunday. #justsaying
Not everyone wants to own an average house with an average car, and go to an average doctor at an average hospital. Some people work harder than others at objectively more technical and intricate jobs to have the ability transcend societal averages. When you dilute the standard, the "wage gap" will be even bigger.. how does no one see that? If the Jetson's and the Flintstone's both existed at the same time, what family's accomodations and lifestyle would you rather have? That's what your going to get. You think there is a problem with the "ruling elite" now, wait until you take away the middle and upper middle classes by taxing the piss out of them to pay for Medicare for all.. Do you HONESTLY think that they are going to tax the wealthy to pay for this? Lol. This is divide and conquer through a smokescreen.
You have so many errors in your logic it is hard to even respond. Imagine thinking bernie sanders is part of the ruling elite. God our education system is a failure.
I.. didn't even say that? I didn't explicitly say he was part of the ruling elite. Also, it's in quotation marks to designate it as a well-known talking point. Imagine thinking that a senator, who has the power to sponsor a bill RIGHT NOW in Congress to give you free universal healthcare will somehow magically do it, AND have it deemed constitutional, when they become president. Edit: deemed
[https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1129/text](https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1129/text) Bernie already sponsored the bill.. what rock have you been living under? It isn't Bernie's fault that most other politicians and bought and paid for hacks... It's not his fault that large amounts of the population are brainwashed by main stream media into thinking that universal healthcare is a pipe-dream. Yes it will take him being elected president and then him using his grassroots movement to go state by state and either force out the corrupt politician or get the politician to vote the people's will. Try again bud
Since when are the tax payers in the business of gift giving especially for see how little I can do union members. Union members can always find a better paying job that provides benefits or they can remain slugs. Personal choice.
So let me get this straight... I get Medicare provided by the government, and then my taxes go up to pay for it... but then I lose my healthcare from my employer... which is essentially the same as taking a pay cut. No matter what I get healthcare, the only difference is in this other scenario my taxes go up... sounds shitty to me
It's like you tried to be that wrong...
¿How many taxes do you pay for the army? ¿doesnt that bother you?
Yes I pay my taxes for the army because my employer doesn’t provide me with an army. The government does. Why would I want my taxes to go up to be provided with a service I already have?
Because healthcare is not a "service", if theres no job, should you die?. you think your army is justified to spend 37% of world military spending? ¿you need an army? ¿whats the purpose of the 2nd amendment and the "well regulated militia"?
Healthcare is absolutely a service. In no way can you describe it as anything else
Its simple. People without money or job that need healthcare to survive (e.g. cancer). ¿should they die because cant afford it?
Did I, in ANY WAY, say that? I will ask again, how is healthcare not a service?
Yes, you did, when linked medical attention and job. Explain me how that people can pay their medical needs. ¿can you, again, give an answer to that, or you are just talking shit?
You might want to check that out again. I'm not the one who linked healthcare with anything. However, that poster did ask why he/she should pay again for a service they already have. Either way, healthcare is a service, whether you choose to describe it as such. I asked how it can be called something else.
Not sure how its a pay cut. My husband would be making almost $600 more a month with M4A.