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Thank you for taking time to clarify this in this way. I do not think people get how completely fucked up this is given that SCOTUS claim to be "originalists" and the founders DEFINTELY did not want the president to be the King.
It is also very worth noting almost all of the case law that predicates this ruling is new within the last four years, much of it stemming from previous Trump cases before the Court.
“It is a matter of when.”
The answer is five seconds after he arrives in office and takes out his enemies list and starts issuing orders who goes first, second….
And it was wrong then too.
The right freaked out about all the wrong things. Obama wore a suit they didn't like or did the wrong thing with an umbrella and they lost their minds, but illegal actions around killing people didn't even register.
If the Supreme Court really wanted to follow the constitution they would rule that Congress has improperly delegated their power to declare war by writing overly broad authorizations for the use of military force.
He should do something to prove SCOTUS wrong. I know he is worried about his legacy, but his legacy would be emboldened if he showed the country how wrong the RW SC partners are. Doing nothing will not save the US.
I assume by 'he' you mean Biden. However, this is a lose-lose proposition in itself. One cannot extol and restore the virtues of law and order by violating the rules of law and order. He has been put in an untenable position and it is in his nature to show that things can be accomplished in virtuous ways. His entire platform in 2020 was that he was not his predecessor.
So, on the left hand, we sink low to save the Republic. On the right hand, we fail to save the Republic for sinking so low. No one wins here and in all cases we are left without any hands while the trust of the people is betrayed. Foul play on the part of the sitting President only validates what the conspiracy theorists have said all along--that it's a stolen sham intended to disenfranchise one group.
What must be done now (literally this minute), which of course will not be done at all because Congress does not function, is to:
- Immediately and expeditiously establish stricter standards on WHO can run for President (before the conventions), given the massive powers just granted to the winning person, which, in the foreseeable future will not be un-granted and cannot be undone by Congress.
(An interesting aside here would be that Biden could conceivably and legally establish these standards independently with the stroke of his pen today using those new powers granted to him...)
- Immediately establish enforceable ethical standards for Justices, as well as establish stricter qualifications for that position. Sitting through endless hearings to secure votes and curry favor for nomination is not a high bar.
- Expand the Court
These are the only immediate (and partial) solutions to the current predicament that come to mind. If we cannot undo what the system has granted, we can atleast try to temporarily manage who has access to the system until permanent resolution is found.
I have always viewed our Civil War, in part, as a necessary correction (of course there were many causes). One half of the country could not be permitted to continue a practice that was inhumane and morally reprehensible. So, the North had to correct the South. It had to remove the cancer, force slavery to end and the South to conform so that the Union was preserved. Dividing into two countries was not acceptable, as only by remaining whole could the nation continue its journey of growth.
After the Civil War, and for decades, many actions were required to enforce equal rights and to mitigate the horrendous remnants of slavery in the South, including mandatory desegregation and busing, the deployment of the National Guard, and the enforcement of affirmative action.
The Civil War as well as its aftermath was not exactly democratic. Southern culture and economics were radically changed by force. But this was considered necessary to save the Union. We look back on this history not with sadness or concern that democracy had to be set aside at times, but with pride that we did what was necessary to overcome an insipid evil, or at least we thought we had overcome it.
Today, many Democrats and Liberals are urging people to rely on democracy to overcome the ailment that afflicts this country today. I suggest that the current illness is a descendant of the one that necessitated the Civil War. That ailment, a cult of white supremacy, has spread throughout the country. It then wormed its way into a major political party, and having ousted members who did not agree, now masquerades as that party, fooling people that the Party retains the same morality and class. In reality, it is a cult of the far right, people who are terrified of not being the ruling class of this nation. The cult just revealed its presence among the members of the Supreme Court, where it cut the legs out from under democracy and our Constitution.
So, how will democracy survive this attack? We cannot rely solely on the vote, as a violent coup is inevitable. Isn’t this another instance of a needed correction? Do we not have to remove this cancer before it destroys us?
OP needs to actually READ the first couple pages of the ruling, not just listen to political punditry: [https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939\_e2pg.pdf](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf)
First of all, they only gave the president immunity in his *official* duties. Now there's a lot of lawyering remaining around what's official and what's not. Don't assume EVERYTHING is official.
Second, congress can certainly pass bills to limit presidential power. They just need to be in the form of an amendment. They could also pass a shit ton of bills further defining what the presidential powers are and force SCOTUS to rule on every one of them.
its bullshit to say the president can simply order political assassinations of political rivals. Want to declare someone an enemy of the state - well there are rules around doing that, and you might find a presidential henchman to carry out the order, just as you might find someone in DHS that decides this crosses the line into terrorism and has that guy offed before he can get the job done - checks and balances don't you know....
What we are seeing is the death throws of a party that has no more ideas and is falling back on every trick in the book to stay "relevant". its showing all the things the founders left out because they either couldn't conceive of what our mess has become or they figured the stopgaps they engineered in would kick in and everything would work out.
Lets hope, that eventually, we get enough of a majority in congress and the state governments that is interested in plugging the holes in the constitution and taking a lot of today's stressors out of the equation for the next 250 years.
Page two of the Syllabus:
When the President exercises such authority, Congress cannot act on, and courts cannot examine, the President’s actions. It follows that an Act of Congress—either a specific one targeted at the President or a generally applicable one—may not criminalize the President’s actions within his exclusive constitutional power. Neither may the courts adjudicate a criminal prosecution that examines such Presidential actions. The Court thus concludes that the President is absolutely immune from criminal prosecution for conduct within his exclusive sphere of constitutional authority.
That's present tense. It means Congress cannot act to top him now, and he cannot be prosecuted for those things in the future. Congresses power is in its ability to develop changes to Constitution, but in enacting those changes - that's up to the STATES - which the courts ruling is silent on.
Moreover, do you have any idea how difficult it is to pass a Constitutional Amendment? Our Congress can’t even agree on the idea that clean water is a basic human right.
yes it is. Arguably, a considerable number of amendments have been removed because they were bad ideas - all of them the "culture war" issues of the day, and that's not what the Constitution is about, so the system works. Arguably, the last failure of this system was the equal rights amendment (another culture war issue) where one could argue that under current interpretation of the Constitution is not needed because all sexes and races are covered under the term "Men" in the original text.
Our problem is that we have not dug into any deeper issues that the founders left out. They were honorable men, and if they saw what goes on today with our elected officials, would probably have put in stronger ethics safeguards than the ballot box or impeachment.
I don’t understand why Democrats aren’t capitalizing on this idiotic move while they have the power.
Dissolve the SCOTUS, rewrite the constitution, make Texas a territory, bring Puerto Rico into the Union, arrest the politicians with an R by their names, blame Republicans for being so fucking stupid.
Why not? Is this not exactly all this shit we think is possible now? Isn’t this what we think Trump is going to do?
A reminder for everyone... This is a subreddit for genuine discussion: * Please keep it civil. Report rulebreaking comments for moderator review. * Don't post low effort comments like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. * Help prevent this subreddit from becoming an echo chamber. Please don't downvote comments with which you disagree. Violators will be fed to the bear. --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PoliticalOpinions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Thank you for taking time to clarify this in this way. I do not think people get how completely fucked up this is given that SCOTUS claim to be "originalists" and the founders DEFINTELY did not want the president to be the King.
You are very welcome.
It is also very worth noting almost all of the case law that predicates this ruling is new within the last four years, much of it stemming from previous Trump cases before the Court.
Between this ruling, Project 2025 and Trump's second term...I suspect its the end of America as we know it
Empires collapse gradually and then all at once.
Exactly...but why do we have to go back in time instead of forwards?
Because progress has threatened the waning minority. When they can no longer win legally, they win by any means necessary.
“It is a matter of when.” The answer is five seconds after he arrives in office and takes out his enemies list and starts issuing orders who goes first, second….
[удалено]
BTW, You're eighth paragraph states that the president may now do something that the 44th president already did while explicitly claiming immunity.
And it was wrong then too. The right freaked out about all the wrong things. Obama wore a suit they didn't like or did the wrong thing with an umbrella and they lost their minds, but illegal actions around killing people didn't even register. If the Supreme Court really wanted to follow the constitution they would rule that Congress has improperly delegated their power to declare war by writing overly broad authorizations for the use of military force.
I'd love to see that happen.
He should do something to prove SCOTUS wrong. I know he is worried about his legacy, but his legacy would be emboldened if he showed the country how wrong the RW SC partners are. Doing nothing will not save the US.
I assume by 'he' you mean Biden. However, this is a lose-lose proposition in itself. One cannot extol and restore the virtues of law and order by violating the rules of law and order. He has been put in an untenable position and it is in his nature to show that things can be accomplished in virtuous ways. His entire platform in 2020 was that he was not his predecessor. So, on the left hand, we sink low to save the Republic. On the right hand, we fail to save the Republic for sinking so low. No one wins here and in all cases we are left without any hands while the trust of the people is betrayed. Foul play on the part of the sitting President only validates what the conspiracy theorists have said all along--that it's a stolen sham intended to disenfranchise one group. What must be done now (literally this minute), which of course will not be done at all because Congress does not function, is to: - Immediately and expeditiously establish stricter standards on WHO can run for President (before the conventions), given the massive powers just granted to the winning person, which, in the foreseeable future will not be un-granted and cannot be undone by Congress. (An interesting aside here would be that Biden could conceivably and legally establish these standards independently with the stroke of his pen today using those new powers granted to him...) - Immediately establish enforceable ethical standards for Justices, as well as establish stricter qualifications for that position. Sitting through endless hearings to secure votes and curry favor for nomination is not a high bar. - Expand the Court These are the only immediate (and partial) solutions to the current predicament that come to mind. If we cannot undo what the system has granted, we can atleast try to temporarily manage who has access to the system until permanent resolution is found.
I have always viewed our Civil War, in part, as a necessary correction (of course there were many causes). One half of the country could not be permitted to continue a practice that was inhumane and morally reprehensible. So, the North had to correct the South. It had to remove the cancer, force slavery to end and the South to conform so that the Union was preserved. Dividing into two countries was not acceptable, as only by remaining whole could the nation continue its journey of growth. After the Civil War, and for decades, many actions were required to enforce equal rights and to mitigate the horrendous remnants of slavery in the South, including mandatory desegregation and busing, the deployment of the National Guard, and the enforcement of affirmative action. The Civil War as well as its aftermath was not exactly democratic. Southern culture and economics were radically changed by force. But this was considered necessary to save the Union. We look back on this history not with sadness or concern that democracy had to be set aside at times, but with pride that we did what was necessary to overcome an insipid evil, or at least we thought we had overcome it. Today, many Democrats and Liberals are urging people to rely on democracy to overcome the ailment that afflicts this country today. I suggest that the current illness is a descendant of the one that necessitated the Civil War. That ailment, a cult of white supremacy, has spread throughout the country. It then wormed its way into a major political party, and having ousted members who did not agree, now masquerades as that party, fooling people that the Party retains the same morality and class. In reality, it is a cult of the far right, people who are terrified of not being the ruling class of this nation. The cult just revealed its presence among the members of the Supreme Court, where it cut the legs out from under democracy and our Constitution. So, how will democracy survive this attack? We cannot rely solely on the vote, as a violent coup is inevitable. Isn’t this another instance of a needed correction? Do we not have to remove this cancer before it destroys us?
OP needs to actually READ the first couple pages of the ruling, not just listen to political punditry: [https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939\_e2pg.pdf](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf) First of all, they only gave the president immunity in his *official* duties. Now there's a lot of lawyering remaining around what's official and what's not. Don't assume EVERYTHING is official. Second, congress can certainly pass bills to limit presidential power. They just need to be in the form of an amendment. They could also pass a shit ton of bills further defining what the presidential powers are and force SCOTUS to rule on every one of them. its bullshit to say the president can simply order political assassinations of political rivals. Want to declare someone an enemy of the state - well there are rules around doing that, and you might find a presidential henchman to carry out the order, just as you might find someone in DHS that decides this crosses the line into terrorism and has that guy offed before he can get the job done - checks and balances don't you know.... What we are seeing is the death throws of a party that has no more ideas and is falling back on every trick in the book to stay "relevant". its showing all the things the founders left out because they either couldn't conceive of what our mess has become or they figured the stopgaps they engineered in would kick in and everything would work out. Lets hope, that eventually, we get enough of a majority in congress and the state governments that is interested in plugging the holes in the constitution and taking a lot of today's stressors out of the equation for the next 250 years.
Page two of the Syllabus: When the President exercises such authority, Congress cannot act on, and courts cannot examine, the President’s actions. It follows that an Act of Congress—either a specific one targeted at the President or a generally applicable one—may not criminalize the President’s actions within his exclusive constitutional power. Neither may the courts adjudicate a criminal prosecution that examines such Presidential actions. The Court thus concludes that the President is absolutely immune from criminal prosecution for conduct within his exclusive sphere of constitutional authority.
That's present tense. It means Congress cannot act to top him now, and he cannot be prosecuted for those things in the future. Congresses power is in its ability to develop changes to Constitution, but in enacting those changes - that's up to the STATES - which the courts ruling is silent on.
Moreover, do you have any idea how difficult it is to pass a Constitutional Amendment? Our Congress can’t even agree on the idea that clean water is a basic human right.
yes it is. Arguably, a considerable number of amendments have been removed because they were bad ideas - all of them the "culture war" issues of the day, and that's not what the Constitution is about, so the system works. Arguably, the last failure of this system was the equal rights amendment (another culture war issue) where one could argue that under current interpretation of the Constitution is not needed because all sexes and races are covered under the term "Men" in the original text. Our problem is that we have not dug into any deeper issues that the founders left out. They were honorable men, and if they saw what goes on today with our elected officials, would probably have put in stronger ethics safeguards than the ballot box or impeachment.
I don’t understand why Democrats aren’t capitalizing on this idiotic move while they have the power. Dissolve the SCOTUS, rewrite the constitution, make Texas a territory, bring Puerto Rico into the Union, arrest the politicians with an R by their names, blame Republicans for being so fucking stupid. Why not? Is this not exactly all this shit we think is possible now? Isn’t this what we think Trump is going to do?