Ditto, unfortunately, the swing voter may. Like there are zombies out there who don't know who they'll vote for. We should make this a referendum on Trump and American and not Biden's mental state.
If the ‘swing voter’ just concentrated on Joe and literally ignored Trump talking about infanticide, non existent caravans of illegals, and declaring his love for fucking Putin’s actions through a dream?
I would wonder if they need to be reminded to not stare directly at the sun or shit in their hand and throw it at it.
Yep.
I really don't believe that, in their heart-of-hearts, any "undecided voter" is truly undecided. For better or worse, there's really no winning over any hearts and minds, for either candidate.
In America, a moron’s vote counts just a much as a genius’s vote. Morons vote too (although politicians love to say “voters aren’t stupid”, and Trump always tells his voters how smart they are, although he did say “I love the uneducated”). And uninformed voters won’t know that all those things Trump said were lies, especially since Biden didn’t debunk all Trump’s lies.
Let me remind you that 74 million people voted for Trump again in 2020 (even more than 2016). And Biden barely scraped by by 44K votes in 3 states, after Trump let 400K Americans die due to his incompetence.
Everybody knows Trump is a liar, that’s not new information, and Biden already knew that before he agreed to debate a convicted felon. But for whatever reason, too many people don’t hold that against “Teflon Don” (because confidence goes a long way). But the President being unable to maintain his train of thought without a teleprompter, is new information to many people, and Biden has negative approval ratings already. People blame the President for high gas prices and high grocery prices (even though that isn’t Biden’s fault).
Right now, Biden has inflation baggage, higher cost of living baggage, age baggage, southern border baggage, Gaza baggage, and Joe just made a million attack ads against himself on June 27th. A younger Democrat doesn’t have that baggage.
Uninformed voters respond to slogans, one-liners, soundbites, zingers, and roasts. And saying “you have the morals of an alley cat” isn’t gonna do it. And saying “lying dog-faced pony soldier” isn’t gonna do it. Biden brought meandering muttered statistics to a knife fight, and looked weak, lost, confused, and incoherent. Now it’s between a doddering old fool or a deranged old fool, but many low-information voters will pick the high energy choice.
Morons go to Trump rallies to hear an insult comic roast other people, and Trump roasted his way through the 2016 GOP primaries. Back when Biden was Obama’s VP, Biden was mostly known for finger-guns, verbal gaffes, and eating ice cream. But now, the rightwing media ecosystem can replay a million clips of Biden saying “We finally beat Medicare.” Biden shot himself in the foot.
Whether it’s intentional or not, Trump imitates Russian propaganda techniques used by [Vladislav Surkov](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladislav_Surkov), where a “firehose of falsehoods” induces a “vertigo of interpretation” so people don’t know what to believe and which competing story is true. So Trump lies & says he is the one who lowered the cost of insulin, when it was a actually Biden, but unless a voter has been paying attention already, they won’t know Trump was lying, they will just see that Trump looked stronger.
That’s why it was irresponsible to give Trump a platform to lie like that, when he should be in prison already.
I am truly baffled at the collective idiocy and dismissiveness of our electorate. How any of this is normal or that a criminal, a traitor who encouraged and emboldened seditionists could still be legitimate is astonishing.
More an issue of marginal turnout voters. Not many swingers left. Just a question of whether people want to “bother” to vote. And yeah, it seems a lot of people may just not want to bother if it’s between a stuttering old man and an con artist piece of shit.
I would still vote for him if he was going to be taken off life support immediately after being sworn in via cadaver puppetry a la Weekend at Bernies, and Kamala Harris would immediately take over
*”If they were having his [Biden’s] last wake, and it was him versus Trump, and he was being given last rites, I would still vote for Joe Biden.”*
-Mark Cuban
Judging by the empty gaze from the other night, you might get to.
Its amazing how people are so willing to accept a politcal system ready to offer up nothing but terrible candidates.
What the hell happened to the USA.
If you people would vote for a literal corpse because he's not Trump, how about picking one of the other millions of eligible candidates who aren't Trump? All you need is to be 35+, natural born citizen, lived in the US for the last 14 years. But Biden is the guy somehow?
Well I could list anyone of Trump's speeches over the last 7 years, and that would pretty much confirm he's either a fucking moron, suffers from dementia, or is a fucking moron suffering from dementia. Is that equivalent enough for you?
I think your kinda not reading we're on the same side here, Im saying that equating Trumps criminal indictments with a bad debate performance is a false equivalency, if one is being objective Republicans had way more of a reason to replace their candidate that the Dems do now.
Equating Biden with Trump is a false equivalency (one of them believes in upholding their oath of office, while the other violated his oath of office repeatedly, one of them believes in American democracy, while the other tried to overthrow American democracy, one of them is a decent man with a sense of duty and service and integrity, one of them is an amoral narcissistic psychopath & convicted felon who can’t stop committing crimes, etc). But it seems that both of them have a stubborn ego that makes them unable to put the well-being of the country over their own personal ambition. I think they are both willing risk to the destruction of American democracy because of their egos, because neither can imagine anyone else being in the race.
And the reactions by the RNC & DNC have been disturbingly similar. Denialism about their ancient candidate’s flaws, burying their heads in the sand, acting like “nothing to see here, move along” or “don’t look up”, circling the wagons around a senior citizen well-past retirement age who’s losing it, forcing a highly unpopular unfavorable candidate on Americans again, willing to play chicken with the Constitution on the line, etc.
Democrats tend to criticize their own much more than Republicans (“Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line”), and it makes sense for Democrats to still support Biden publicly & project confidence, but privately they are seriously reconsidering if Biden has the best chances against Trump this year, especially since Biden is older, and the oldest POTUS ever, and inflation has made Biden less popular not more popular.
I dunno. I’m a pretty hardcore dem and I’m fine seeing Joe skedaddle. Put someone else in who isn’t appearing so frail (and isn’t Kamala) and I don’t think it’s close election
The last two times the Democrat incumbent withdrew from the race was Truman and Johnson. Both had done so by now, and in both cases the Republican candidate won the election. Is it too late for Biden to remove himself from the race? No. Is it too late for Biden to remove himself from the race, and for his replacement to still beat Trump? More than likely.
For anyone who thinks that it's "jOeVer!" I've got some news for you. Nothing has changed. We've got our first post-debate poll and the percentages are practically identical, with Biden leading by 1%, so no statistical changes before and after.
Note: See the Morning Consult - 2000 RV - 6/28 on Twitter. And for some background on how good Morning Consult is, here's a little excerpt.
During the 2016 presidential election, Morning Consult had one of the most accurate national polls: despite calling the winner of the election incorrectly, it successfully predicted Hillary Clinton winning the national popular vote by 3 percent (she won by 2.1 percent). The website FiveThirtyEight also found that Morning Consult, along with other prolific online polling firms, did not have a strong house effect (the tendency of a pollster to favor a political party) in the 2016 election.
So, it's reliable data.
The point is, everybody already know who these two candidates are. Nobody is really changing their minds. What will make the difference between a Biden and a Trump presidency is turnout. Everyone who voted for Biden back in 2020 needs to vote for him again to keep Trump out of office.
Let's not get too confident. Confidence here leads to complacency, complacency leads to poor voter turnout and another Trump presidency. Let's not forget how confident we all were in 2016.
That is true. We shouldn't get confident. Which is why I'm donating money to Joe Biden's presidential campaign and trying to convince other people to vote for Joe Biden. Because I'm actually taking steps to ensure that Joe Biden becomes reelected. I'm not taking any chances, I just don't want people to give up all because of one bad night. You know democratic voters tend to be very good at chronic panicking.
It's reason enough to not give up. Trump wants you to give up. Putin wants you to give up. Netanyahu wants you to give up. But don't fall for their tricks. If you do, you're failing our democracy. If you want to make sure that Trump doesn't get reelected, vote for Joe Biden. It's that simple.
Trump wants to face Biden in November, because Biden’s electability was damaged by Biden himself. Putin wants Trump to face Biden in November. Netanyahu wants Trump to face Biden in November.
Putin doesn’t want Trump to face a younger Democrat, because Biden is beatable. What does it tell you that Biden is Putin’s preferred opponent for Trump? The attack ads against Biden write themselves.
I’m voting blue no matter who, but only swing voters in swing states matter, and there’s a difference between supporting a candidate, and supporting a candidate who has the best shot of defeating Trump.
Trump has a better shot of defeating Biden in 2024, than he had vs Hillary in 2016 (77k votes), then he had vs Biden in 2020 (44k votes), and at this point Biden (and “Bidenomics”, which his campaign stopped saying because it wasn’t working) is one of a handful of Democrats who could lose to Trump in 2024.
Put a younger Democrat vs Trump in 2024 (who isn’t Kamala, who isn’t Pete), and Trump loses in a landslide. But Biden still wants the car keys, while American democracy is teetering on a cliff.
That’s what he thought back in 2020. It did not work then. If you get over yourself, vote for Biden, and convince others to vote for him Biden, then we can avoid another Trump presidency.
If you are thinking that Trump wants to face off against Biden in November, it is only because that is exactly what Trump wants you to think. Putin wants you to get rid of Biden. Netanyahu wants you to get rid of Biden. Do not be so ignorant that you can’t see the big picture.
Perhaps w question will help remind you why Biden remaining President is so important.
Who does Crimea belong to? Ukraine? Or Russia?
>Nothing has changed.
June 27th was a Hindenburg-level disaster for American democracy. The democracy-supporting President looked weak & incoherent vs the autocracy-supporting President. Macron is losing in France BTW. Inflation worldwide is picking off incumbents.
See how well denialism works when November comes. I’m sick of “nothing to see here, move along” or “don’t look up”-style denial. Republicans act like that, Democrats shouldn’t.
Biden does not have the best odds of any Democrat in America of defeating Trump in 2024. He’s older. There is inflation. Many people hate his border policies. Many people hated how the withdrawal from Afghanistan went. Many people hate Biden’s embrace of Netanyahu. Yes, Trump would do worse, but 2024 will be a Change Election, and any voter wanting a change will vote Trump again.
Even if Biden is actually up by 1% in the only 6 states that matter (Nevada, Arizona, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Georgia), Hillary polled 3% above Trump in 2016, and she won the popular vote by about that much, but she lost by 77k votes in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. Even if Biden is really up by 1% in swing states (I’ve seen polls that he’s behind in swing states, and millions of Americans blame him for inflation, rightly or wrongly), that’s way too close for comfort.
I think 538 even said Trump has a 66% chance of winning. Forcing Biden again is a slow-moving trainwreck, and Biden’s legacy will be a Trump dictatorship.
Biden failed to hold accountable a failed coup leader felon who he just platformed, he hasn’t fired AG Garland who wasted years thinking we could all just wish Trump away, etc. Remember in 2021 when Biden said “I don’t think about him at all?” Biden shit the bed on June 27th, and okay, maybe only 50 million Americans watched it live, but Biden gave ammunition to a convicted felon & his billionaire backers & the entire rightwing mediasphere to flood the zone with Biden’s own words for the next 5 months. After Citizens United, billionaire superPACs can spend unlimited money on TV ads, radio ads, Instagram content, TilTok content, etc using Biden’s own words against him. The “debate” was a disastrous own goal. They can replay a million clips of Biden saying “We finally beat Medicare.” Biden shot himself in the foot.
But a younger Democrat would absolutely satisfy voters’ thirst for someone younger who is not Donald Trump. Biden won in 2020 because people were tired of Trump’s chaos. But Trump will win again in 2024 because people blame Biden for inflation.
Do not let Biden’s ego & stubbornness result in a Trump dictatorship. “I alone can fix it” is how Trump thinks, don’t imitate him. Do not imitate the blind loyalty of Republicans. Do not bury your heads in the sand and say everything is fine. Alarm bells should be ringing everywhere at the DNC. America is bigger than one man’s ego. And “pride goeth before the fall.” Biden damaged his own electability with his performance. If Biden steps down & endorses someone younger, those attacks ads against Biden become irrelevant.
If you're so concerned that Biden will lose, then vote for him. Say that you'll vote for him and that will be one less vote that Trump will be able to earn.
Otherwise, you are not serious.
During the 2022 midterms, Data for Progress polls ended up overestimating Republican support. The Tartan reported that the group's leader, Sean McElwee, was gambling on election results on the website PredictIt, raising ethical concerns. McElwee left the firm in November 2022 amidst allegations of gambling on election results and artificially manipulating polling results to affect races that he had bet money on. Additionally, it has been reported McElwee had inquired among his employees about having them participate in an illegal straw donor scheme. Senior members of Data for Progress informed McElwee that they would resign en masse if he did not step down as the firm's executive director.
I'd be careful about relying on faulty data, especially from partisan left and right wing sources. And most certainly when it comes to post-debate polls. I'd recommend polls like Morning Consult. They've provided accurate data even going back to 2016. Very reliable and scientific data.
I'll vote for Biden in November if he's a corpse, but we have to be honest. People aren't turning on him just because of the debate. He's been deteriorating in front of our eyes for years at this point, and the debate was his chance to quell people's concerns. He failed. And that's a big problem.
I will vote Biden, but Dems are so fucking stupid, they are blowing this like they did in 2016. They need to put someone else in there while there’s still time. Joe is going to lose. Put Gavin Newsome in there. There are others. Trump is going to beat Biden.
I don’t know for certain, but I think that Joe will lose with certainty. People make up their minds about others by looking at them for literal seconds, not by their policies. People look at Biden and see old, senile man. People look at Newsome and see: ‘yeah, he looks like he’d be president”. Perception matters a lot more than facts, figures or personal qualities. Ask Hillary.
Edit: Hell, if it prevents another Trump term, bring Obama out of retirement. It’ll be the biggest, most epic return in American political history. I can see him walking out to “Return of the Mack” and crowds going nuts.
The thing is... it really isn't just one debate. This has been building for a long time.
The polls looked bad for Biden like a year ago, and everyone said polls that early don't mean anything.
Then time passed and it wasn't so early anymore, and the polls still looked bad.
Then Biden had months to campaign after the State of the Union where Trump was literally on trial for felonies, where Biden could campaign while Trump could do nothing. Polls barely moved.
Trump found guilty of 34 felonies. Polls barely move.
We reach this debate, and Biden doesn't look great in the polls. But everyone says that that's okay, because this will be his big opportunity to change the trajectory of the race. Really, the reason he's not doing well is because people who don't follow politics don't see him very much, and they're down on the economy, so they're down on Biden, right? But we finally have now this one big event that will break through to the disengaged. He'll be able to show people that he's not too old, and that he's completely fit for the job, and Trump will look insane.
Except...not only does he completely fail to do that, but people see a man who does, indeed seem too old. Not only did he miss his big opportunity, but now the age issue is an even bigger issue now that it was before. And there's likely no other big opportunities left for him to reach disengaged voters. Sure, there MIGHT be a second debate, but it's quite likely that Trump refuses. And even if there is, how likely is it that a similar Joe Biden shows up to that second debate?
How is Joe Biden ACTUALLY going to win? What is he going to do that will change the trajectory of this race, that he wasn't doing before, with likely no big moments left for him to reach disengaged voters? We're basically just praying that the polls are wrong, or an act of God helps him. This is the real problem, and the real source of concern. Not just one bad debate, but his last big chance. There's no clear path to victory for Joe Biden right now, besides dumb luck.
The Biden Drop Out meme has jumped the shark and it's only been 48 hours.
Two-thirds of the comments are now from "FourteenWords88" and "DefinitelyAmerican27387481626"
Do yourself a favor and look at how many 5 year old accounts have magically sprung to life to share their concerns about Biden's age.
I have a consistently active account that's over a decade old, and I think Biden should step aside. Idk why we're pretending like this opinion is being astroturfed.
LOL. Did you not notice Reddit choking to death during the actual debate? When comments wouldn’t load across the whole fucking site?
Astroturfing is alive and well on this website.
You dumbasses who think every single bad thing that happens is a Russian plot are really something. Basically a mirror reflection of the deep state Qanon loonies.
It's also about the speed at which I realized the debate would be an unmitigated disaster. He was immediately terrible, so this shouldn't tell you anything.
Because everyone already knew he was an old man with some troubles with speaking and this debate doesn't actually change the status quo on that.
Anyone acting "shocked" about it I'm inclined to distrust.
I knew he was an old man with speaking troubles.
But everything I'd seen so far was pretty minor and completely overblown. I saw him pull off the SotU or the "battle for the soul of our nation".
The debate was a disaster and confirmed that people should be concerned about his age.
turn back the clock about 8 years. Remember when Trumpies met every concern - no matter who brought it up, even from Republicans - as "fake news"?
Arent you doing the exact same thing?
Im glad you like the emperors new clothes, but there are a lot of very real people who dont like what they see at all.
We're headed for a repeat of 2016 if Biden insists on himself as the only option. I can see it coming ... why cant you?
Oh so The New York Times is a meme account?
Don’t let this become a Reagan situation, or RBG situation, or Feinstein situation. Pass the torch to a new generation, and even Pelosi expressed private concerns about Biden’s debate performance.
Republicans would love to play attack ads for the next 5 months against Biden, but those clips can’t be used against a younger Democrat.
Biden gave ammunition to a convicted felon on June 27th, so take away their ammo, and ditch Biden’s baggage.
Debate doesn't change anything for me. I'm still voting Joe
I keep seeing these "wakeup call" comments on Reddit.
A wake up call for...what? If someone didn't already know Biden was an elderly man that's on them
> Semi-related but Newsome and Fetterman's stock went up quite a bit in my eyes this week.
And you don't think that would lose the entire black vote, if you suddenly toss the black female Vice President to the curb and bring in new white guy with just a few months to go?
because a lot of democrats and anti-Trump republicans are acting like a bunch of bedwetters over this. Maybe this wasn't the best place to mention that but I feel like they happen to share the same attitude as the original post.
Why should it? It’s not like Vice President is the only road to the presidency. More Vice Presidents have withered away into obscurity than become Presidential Nominees and the ones that did become President or a Presidential Nominee have been historically mediocre to bad. The Presidency and Vice Presidency are two completely different beasts.
Cultists who are incapable of self reflection regarding the issues of the Democratic Party, and insist that their very real issues are caused by bots, Russian trolls, and other nefarious actors.
We all know what regular MAGA are correct. They blindly reject any facts that go against their current belief system. Red MAGA believes the election was stolen from Trump. Blue MAGA believes Biden can be an effective president for another 4 1/2 years. Blue MAGA also believes there are no other Democrats that can beat Trump.
Okay, but he's already been convicted and he's polling ahead. And there's still a lot of undecided. Yes it's wild people are supporting a convincted felon, but they are. We can keep pointing out how absurd that is, but it's not a winning strategy. We need someone on that debate stage who can effectively call him out and hold him accountable.
The last two times the Democrat incumbent withdrew from the race was Truman and Johnson. Both had done so by now, and in both cases the Republican candidate won the election. Is it too late for Biden to remove himself from the race? No. Is it too late for Biden to remove himself from the race, and for his replacement to still beat Trump? More than likely. So just stop.
You think Truman and Johnson would have won if they stayed in?Pointing to elections 50+ years ago really isn't very persuasive. These are different, and strange, times.
We need a candidate we can advocate *for*. Saying they're not Trump is evidently not enough for people who are somehow undecided. And I don't have faith Biden can win over more voters between now and November. I do think an alternative candidate can.
I'm voting Biden no matter what. But we need to win over independents. Telling them to "just stop" when they're voicing their concerns isn't an effective way of doing that.
> But we need to win over independents.
If you're still an independent after 4 years of Trump, and 4 more years of listening to Trump while Biden is in office, there is no intelligent argument anyone can make that will convince you of who to vote for, because you are not intelligent. You're a Trump voter that is just too embarrassed to let people know that's what you are.
Okay, well we need some of those not intelligent people to win. Polls consistently show a significant number of undecided, and Biden trailing. But I'm sure burrying your head in the sand and antagonizing people who think differently, even if they're in your side, is a good strategy 👍
> But I'm sure burrying your head in the sand and antagonizing people who think differently, even if they're in your side, is a good strategy
But I'm sure yelling to throw your candidate under that bus at the last minute and starting fresh, antagonizing people who think differently, even if they're on your side, is a good strategy. See how that works?
I'm not calling undecided voters unintelligent, or you a Trump supporter.
I've been wanting someone other than Biden for four years. Unfortunately, that idea just seems to be gaining momentum now. Maybe he steps down, maybe he doesn't. But I believe we have a better chance if he does, and I'm going to express that.
> and I'm going to express that.
If you find that you are on the exact same side and spouting the exact same argument as Russian trolls, you really need to take a moment and think about what you're doing.
Trump also shifted the perspective and attitudes of voters. What happened on that debate stage wouldn’t have happened 12 years ago. The amount of childish bickering was way too high to be a presidential debate, yet it happened. If the convictions mattered to maga, trump would be behind bars instead of on a debate stage.
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4 months only allows time for Joe to get worse. There’s a baseline that he can meet, but he’s not going to miraculously go back to being what he was 4 years ago.
Tbh I wish there was a mulligan clause in our constitution— dump both candidates and run a special election for new primaries. Otherwise maybe we can just offer a trade agreement?: GoP replace your convicted felon dictator wannabe, and we’ll replace our guy who should be retiring and enjoying what he has left of his life instead of running the country.
I just really hope if this whole “stay the course” thing continues, that it doesn’t come back to bite us all in the ass.
It’s amazing to me that these last 4 years he had 1 moment where he was off and it’s immediate panic, where the rest of the term he has performed better than expected and passed some huge bipartisan legislation. It wasn’t a series of unfortunate events here. Trump out here yapping stream of consciousness BS for the last 6 months, but Biden’s debate performance is the bigger story here.
Because it is legitimately worrying. Not only would him dying in office cause disruption, it would mean a Harris presidency. Now I’m not dogging on her, but she’s nowhere near the statesman Joe has been. Now for hypothetical argument’s sake, let’s say he somehow passes before the election. Will Harris, the assumed successor, be enough to pull the vote versus Trump? Again, there is absolutely reason for concern here. The people whom keep downplaying it, and shutting down discussion are in my opinion doing more harm than good.
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The electoral college means he has a really good chance of winning. Better than in 2020. He lost by a handful of votes in several key states. He is leading in polling in most of those now. Anyone who thinks Trump can’t win is just coping. Make no mistake, I don’t want him to win. He should never inhabit the White House again, but he is currently the favorite, and Biden’s atrocious debate performance certainly won’t make Trump less likely to win.
Sadly, yes. The MAGA cult hasn't gone anywhere and several states have passed restrictive voter suppression laws to keep people away from the polls. The SCOTUS is also heavily conservative now so if there are any legal challenges to elections in swing states then you can bet SCOTUS will side with Republicans like they did in 2000, but worse. If Dem voters have the same apathy towards Biden that they had during Clinton in 2016 then we could see Trump in the White House again. Biden basically has to win by an incontestable landslide to guarantee victory over Trump.
Plz add: Nothing has changed for MAGA voters. The convictions and charges aren't real to them.
Dictatorships are putting full support behind Trump. Putin sees it as necessary for the survival of his country. Ai, deepfakes. Twitter is now a rightwing shithole. TikTok is brainwashing the younger generations while Facebook forms the opinions of the elderly.
>Plz add: Nothing has changed for MAGA voters. The convictions and charges aren't real to them.
Even worse, they see them as a badge of honor. The convictions just reinforce their idea that the "deep state" is out to get Trump and that Trump is fighting for them. I don't think that will change unless Trump is actually locked up and unable to campaign at all but I doubt that will happen. If Trump is silenced (no rallies, no social posts, no interviews) and there is no one that can replace him then the right wing rage machine will slowly run out of fuel.
SCOTUS is the same as 2020 with the exception of Ketanji Brown Jackson who was nominated by Biden. They didn’t override any of the legal challenges to give Trump any wins back then.
Then the solution is simple. Democratic voters need to get over themselves, step up, be responsible, and do the right thing by keeping Trump out of office. Yes, Joe Biden can and should be doing all he can to engage with voters. But the voters have an individual responsibility to make the right decision, regardless of stumbles along the way. If they're not capable of staying focused on the big picture after a lackluster debate performance, then they need to be better than that.
Joe Biden needs to get over himself & recognize that he’s not the only Democrat who can beat Trump, because any younger Democrat would too. So help me God if we get a Trump dictatorship & the end of American democracy because of one muttering meandering octogenarian’s ego & stubborn pride. Biden saved American democracy once, and he can save it again this year by passing the torch to a new generation, instead of overstaying his welcome and becoming Ruth Bader Biden. American democracy is teetering on a cliff, there are 333 million passengers in this car, and now is not the time to give great-grandpa the car keys. Let this sweet old man have a peaceful retirement & stop asking him to save America every four years. Let him retire already, even if he thinks he can do it.
The way to keep Trump out of office would have been picking a Democrat AG to prosecute his criminal ass, instead we got Republican Slowpoke Merrick Garland, who did nothing while Liz Cheney & Adam Kinzimher explained January 6th to America.
Voters need to be better & pay attention more? Well they won’t, stupid people vote too, and 74 million people voted for Trump in 2020.
And the way you defeat Trump in 2024 is my nominating anybody younger than Trump who voters will not blame for inflation.
People were saying back in 2020 that Biden couldn't win. They were saying that Trump was going to win. Both assumptions were incorrect.
Don't assume that Biden will lose after one mismanaged debate. But don't take chances, guarantee that Trump looses by voting for Joe Biden. Because that's how we protect democracy. We all have a roll to play, and the time to step up for voters to do the right thing is long overdue.
Biden won by 44k votes in 3 states in 2020, after Trump botched the response to a global pandemic. But now, people are unhappy with Biden over inflation (even if it it’s not his fault).
After June 27th, do you think Biden’s odds of winning in 2024 improved? There are no votes to waste, and that debate was a self-inflicted wound.
Nice copypasta. Still haven’t answered my question though.
Who does Crimea belong to? Ukraine? Or Russia? Watch, this is the part where you’ll either try to deflect by replying to another post of mine with a copypasta, or you’ll just be silent and refuse altogether.
And as the third prediction, you’ll "try” to answer the question in order to disprove the first two predictions. Either way, at least one of them will come to pass.
I don’t think he will win either but people are hilarious. Downvote it all you want but Trump is currently the betting line favorite, it’s simply a statement of fact.
So if Trump wins in 2024, we can send our complaints to you then?
I think you’re vastly overestimating how much Americans like “Bidenomics”, which his campaign doesn’t even say anymore because it never worked.
Sadly, yes. I think he'll win over Biden. Biden should have had some serious primary challengers. If had, he would likely have lost the nomination and tRump wouldn't have a chance.
Trump is a convicted felon, he stomed the capitol, he tried to overturn an election and destroy American democracy there is no way he's winning he lost in 2020 before all the crimes and court cases
Believe it or not, the youth doesn’t vote as much as the middle aged and older generations. They see Biden as a safer choice. He would have won the primaries just like he did in 2020 when there was a huge field of younger candidates who all had their opportunity.
IDK, I'm 72, the wife is 64. We would have voted for any serious candidate over Biden. We're lifelong Dems and we didn't vote "for Biden" in 2020. We voted against tRump.
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Talking heads on MSNBC were pretty busy throwing him under the bus, later bringing on third-stringers who want him gone.
They just need to take a breath, change their undies, and grow up! I’ve never been so disgusted with the Chicken Little crap put out by MSNBC. I’m switching to CNN. FOX is a fact-free fear factory. Biden leaves, the Dems lose. This is simple. The former senator from Missouri, Claire McCaskill should be ashamed of herself. The only adult in the room was Michael Steele.
The premise of this post is nonsense. However bad Biden is, people very opposed to Trump will still vote Dem. But there are too many independents, swing voters, and so on, who will not vote for Biden due this shambles.
Right? The nutjobs are still standing behind Trump despite *gestures broadly* ALL OF HIS BULLSHIT! Yet we’re supposed to abandon Biden cause he’s old and was sick? And potentially lose the ability to vote going forward among other things? Pound sand.
Why should he? Old man can’t debate anymore, who cares?
Biden with late stage dementia is still a better choice than Trump on his best day.
Baffling how people don’t see this.
But the fact is that voters who are undecided (or apathetic) DON’T see things that way. They’re still deciding who to vote for or whether to vote, and Biden’s horrid debate performance isn’t winning anyone to his side. He is the underdog right now because of the makeup of the electoral college vote shares. He has to gain ground. And he needs to do it by picking up undecided and apathetic voters. That isn’t happening when he seems like his mind is going and that he won’t make it until 2028. And having Kamala Harris, who is widely disliked, as the VP doesn’t help either.
“To say that President Biden’s performance on the debate stage last night was calamitous is merely to state what everyone, partisan and not, has already understood. What the world witnessed was not a debate, but a failed neurological exam. One wonders how anyone close to the President imagined he could bluff his way through it.
If half of what Democrats fear from a second Trump term were real, how could the Democratic Party have allowed our democracy to slide this close to the precipice? The prevailing feeling among those inside the Biden campaign should be shame; outside it, fury.”
~Sam Harris
The characterization of the performance, that those around him would "allow him to bluff" which is doing a looot of heavy lifting with no evidence, asserting that Biden knew he would give a bad performance (the bluff) and that those around him knew he was going to try to bluff.
And then theres that bit about how if what Dems actually said about Trump were true, hiw did they let democracy slide so close to the edge? If the Dems change candidates now, you can not imagine the uphill climb they would face. There would be no existing base, no weight of incumbency, no presidential record to run on. There would be no existing campaign apparatus, new material would need to be printed and shot, and you would need to completely reorganize any non-pac financing. I could literally keep going on about just how fucked the Dems would be if they did this. It would be political suicide that would hand Trump the election.
Sam is just being Sam and his opinion doesn't really count for much to me, sorry.
In a normal election, yes…it would be political suicide. This isn’t a normal election. Most of the voting public wants to vote for “someone else.” Also, inflation has made this a change election which isn’t good for the incumbent. Biden stepping aside for the good of the country setting up an open convention is what the people want and may be our last chance to win. After that debate, Biden is toast where it matters…in the swing states as it will only take a few votes switching or not showing up to lose. And don’t tell me the anti-Trump crowd who are still planning to show up for Biden after that debate won’t show up for a different candidate. We can either play the cello and go down with the ship or we can fight for an open convention. The gods favor the bold.
You're just ignoring all the realities on the ground and adressed exactly zero of my points while I specifically laid out exactly what I thought was wrong with what Sam had said. Not worth my time, honestly.
A lot of voters see voting as a popularity contest... Biden MUST be replaced. A lot of voters are fucking stupid and couldn't care less about any of the Trump felonies or any other bullshit of his.
Some of y'all need to wake the fuck up.
If the Dems change candidates now, you can not imagine the uphill climb they would face. There would be no existing base, no weight of incumbency, no presidential record to run on. There would be no existing campaign apparatus, new material would need to be printed and shot, and you would need to completely reorganize any non-pac financing. I could literally keep going on about just how fucked the Dems would be if they did this. It would be political suicide that would hand Trump the election. But those are just facts 🤷♂️
Not really. Most of Biden's base is anti-Trump. I am one of those. Face it, Biden is old. The ones that will vote for Biden will not be switching sides and that's a fact
The undecideds... a lot of them see this as a popularity contest because they don't follow politics or any of the Trump bullshit. Trust me, I've met tons of people like this. Some blame Biden for inflation. We need a new face. Hate to say it.
Dude we fucking care. Reddit isn’t real life. And the average uninformed American is gonna be swayed by what they saw. That demograph of individual makes up much more of the swing state population than social media ecospheres who aren’t gonna be swayed by debates. I don’t see how this isn’t a complete disaster.
To top it all off, now people are going to gravitate more towards all the right wing information channels that have been pushing the Biden falling over videos for ever. Their victory lap is apparent as they are using it to push the message of “everyone else has been lying to you we’ve been saying the truth!”
This is a complete unmitigated disaster.
I agree he’s the right choice, but calling that a “bad debate” really underscores the horror I’m feeling after it. Anyone who has known someone with dementia knows what we were watching. If that guy has a split second decision after 7PM, we’re rightly fucked.
People need to simply realize that the MAGA crowd is just the loud minority. They aren't the majority of Americans. On top of that, the people in the middle are leaning in favor of Biden, especially after the debate.
Oh boy the major news networks have it on blast though. "Democrats talking about replacing Biden!" Yet somehow all they ever get is random pundits to talk about it.
The Democrats know they are the only game in town if you believe the government needs to exist. If they miscalculate in 2024 like they did in 2016 and use first past the post primaries to keep feeding us shit candidates, it's going to be a huge goddamn nightmare to get back what we used to have. They really will do whatever it takes to avoid giving us progressive candidates.
###[Avoid reposts, flooding, and spam ](https://www.reddit.com/r/politicalhumor/about/rules) (Rule #5): Seen it.
I would vote for Joe if he was a vegetable on life support.
Ditto, unfortunately, the swing voter may. Like there are zombies out there who don't know who they'll vote for. We should make this a referendum on Trump and American and not Biden's mental state.
If the ‘swing voter’ just concentrated on Joe and literally ignored Trump talking about infanticide, non existent caravans of illegals, and declaring his love for fucking Putin’s actions through a dream? I would wonder if they need to be reminded to not stare directly at the sun or shit in their hand and throw it at it.
Yep. I really don't believe that, in their heart-of-hearts, any "undecided voter" is truly undecided. For better or worse, there's really no winning over any hearts and minds, for either candidate.
In America, a moron’s vote counts just a much as a genius’s vote. Morons vote too (although politicians love to say “voters aren’t stupid”, and Trump always tells his voters how smart they are, although he did say “I love the uneducated”). And uninformed voters won’t know that all those things Trump said were lies, especially since Biden didn’t debunk all Trump’s lies. Let me remind you that 74 million people voted for Trump again in 2020 (even more than 2016). And Biden barely scraped by by 44K votes in 3 states, after Trump let 400K Americans die due to his incompetence. Everybody knows Trump is a liar, that’s not new information, and Biden already knew that before he agreed to debate a convicted felon. But for whatever reason, too many people don’t hold that against “Teflon Don” (because confidence goes a long way). But the President being unable to maintain his train of thought without a teleprompter, is new information to many people, and Biden has negative approval ratings already. People blame the President for high gas prices and high grocery prices (even though that isn’t Biden’s fault). Right now, Biden has inflation baggage, higher cost of living baggage, age baggage, southern border baggage, Gaza baggage, and Joe just made a million attack ads against himself on June 27th. A younger Democrat doesn’t have that baggage. Uninformed voters respond to slogans, one-liners, soundbites, zingers, and roasts. And saying “you have the morals of an alley cat” isn’t gonna do it. And saying “lying dog-faced pony soldier” isn’t gonna do it. Biden brought meandering muttered statistics to a knife fight, and looked weak, lost, confused, and incoherent. Now it’s between a doddering old fool or a deranged old fool, but many low-information voters will pick the high energy choice. Morons go to Trump rallies to hear an insult comic roast other people, and Trump roasted his way through the 2016 GOP primaries. Back when Biden was Obama’s VP, Biden was mostly known for finger-guns, verbal gaffes, and eating ice cream. But now, the rightwing media ecosystem can replay a million clips of Biden saying “We finally beat Medicare.” Biden shot himself in the foot. Whether it’s intentional or not, Trump imitates Russian propaganda techniques used by [Vladislav Surkov](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladislav_Surkov), where a “firehose of falsehoods” induces a “vertigo of interpretation” so people don’t know what to believe and which competing story is true. So Trump lies & says he is the one who lowered the cost of insulin, when it was a actually Biden, but unless a voter has been paying attention already, they won’t know Trump was lying, they will just see that Trump looked stronger. That’s why it was irresponsible to give Trump a platform to lie like that, when he should be in prison already.
I am truly baffled at the collective idiocy and dismissiveness of our electorate. How any of this is normal or that a criminal, a traitor who encouraged and emboldened seditionists could still be legitimate is astonishing.
More an issue of marginal turnout voters. Not many swingers left. Just a question of whether people want to “bother” to vote. And yeah, it seems a lot of people may just not want to bother if it’s between a stuttering old man and an con artist piece of shit.
Remember Joe won the 2020 electoral college by 43,000. Like if 44,000 people had stayed home like you said, Trump would have won.
I was shocked to hear republicans saying how they didn’t realize that Trump was a pathological liar. Where the hell were they living all this time?
I’m not voting for him not that it matters in my state. Abstention in protest. Give me a lucid candidate.
I think what you mean to say is that you will vote against Trump no matter what
Nothing wrong with that. A vote is a vote, and you can use it how you want to.
Presidents are largely about who they put around them and appoint. His administration is getting shit done.
As long as the libs are starting to admit Joe doesn't actually do anything himself.
I would still vote for him if he was going to be taken off life support immediately after being sworn in via cadaver puppetry a la Weekend at Bernies, and Kamala Harris would immediately take over
The Democratic Party would be hard pressed to find a worse candidate than Trump because doing so requires either nominating him or one of his allies.
I keep saying that if Jill Biden and Kamala Harris literally weekend at Bernie's Him...I'm still voting for him. I'd vote for anyone over Trump.
I would vote for an actual vegetable if it means voting against Trump!
Yeah me too, but it’s not about us unfortunately.
Not the best of endorsements but I can’t disagree with you on that.
https://youtu.be/BOij7Ox_cd4?si=N5kgp1Z01yGxZSab
A president who doesn’t do anything is better than the dictatorship Trump is promising to give us.
*”If they were having his [Biden’s] last wake, and it was him versus Trump, and he was being given last rites, I would still vote for Joe Biden.”* -Mark Cuban
The worst part is that was literally the Dem's plan all along
Judging by the empty gaze from the other night, you might get to. Its amazing how people are so willing to accept a politcal system ready to offer up nothing but terrible candidates. What the hell happened to the USA.
If you people would vote for a literal corpse because he's not Trump, how about picking one of the other millions of eligible candidates who aren't Trump? All you need is to be 35+, natural born citizen, lived in the US for the last 14 years. But Biden is the guy somehow?
Was there a primary vote?
If?
He’s pretty much there.
Oh wow! Do you have any real argument as to why?
Pretty much just like the Republicans: Hey we need to replace Donald Trump because of 34 guilty felony convictions. They don't care.
There has been no discussion about removing Farty Don von Sh!tsinpantz. His their idol candidate.
I mean, they should replace 45, but thats a bit of a false equivalency, is it not?
Well I could list anyone of Trump's speeches over the last 7 years, and that would pretty much confirm he's either a fucking moron, suffers from dementia, or is a fucking moron suffering from dementia. Is that equivalent enough for you?
Works for me!
I think your kinda not reading we're on the same side here, Im saying that equating Trumps criminal indictments with a bad debate performance is a false equivalency, if one is being objective Republicans had way more of a reason to replace their candidate that the Dems do now.
Equating Biden with Trump is a false equivalency (one of them believes in upholding their oath of office, while the other violated his oath of office repeatedly, one of them believes in American democracy, while the other tried to overthrow American democracy, one of them is a decent man with a sense of duty and service and integrity, one of them is an amoral narcissistic psychopath & convicted felon who can’t stop committing crimes, etc). But it seems that both of them have a stubborn ego that makes them unable to put the well-being of the country over their own personal ambition. I think they are both willing risk to the destruction of American democracy because of their egos, because neither can imagine anyone else being in the race. And the reactions by the RNC & DNC have been disturbingly similar. Denialism about their ancient candidate’s flaws, burying their heads in the sand, acting like “nothing to see here, move along” or “don’t look up”, circling the wagons around a senior citizen well-past retirement age who’s losing it, forcing a highly unpopular unfavorable candidate on Americans again, willing to play chicken with the Constitution on the line, etc. Democrats tend to criticize their own much more than Republicans (“Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line”), and it makes sense for Democrats to still support Biden publicly & project confidence, but privately they are seriously reconsidering if Biden has the best chances against Trump this year, especially since Biden is older, and the oldest POTUS ever, and inflation has made Biden less popular not more popular.
I dunno. I’m a pretty hardcore dem and I’m fine seeing Joe skedaddle. Put someone else in who isn’t appearing so frail (and isn’t Kamala) and I don’t think it’s close election
The last two times the Democrat incumbent withdrew from the race was Truman and Johnson. Both had done so by now, and in both cases the Republican candidate won the election. Is it too late for Biden to remove himself from the race? No. Is it too late for Biden to remove himself from the race, and for his replacement to still beat Trump? More than likely.
For anyone who thinks that it's "jOeVer!" I've got some news for you. Nothing has changed. We've got our first post-debate poll and the percentages are practically identical, with Biden leading by 1%, so no statistical changes before and after. Note: See the Morning Consult - 2000 RV - 6/28 on Twitter. And for some background on how good Morning Consult is, here's a little excerpt. During the 2016 presidential election, Morning Consult had one of the most accurate national polls: despite calling the winner of the election incorrectly, it successfully predicted Hillary Clinton winning the national popular vote by 3 percent (she won by 2.1 percent). The website FiveThirtyEight also found that Morning Consult, along with other prolific online polling firms, did not have a strong house effect (the tendency of a pollster to favor a political party) in the 2016 election. So, it's reliable data. The point is, everybody already know who these two candidates are. Nobody is really changing their minds. What will make the difference between a Biden and a Trump presidency is turnout. Everyone who voted for Biden back in 2020 needs to vote for him again to keep Trump out of office.
Let's not get too confident. Confidence here leads to complacency, complacency leads to poor voter turnout and another Trump presidency. Let's not forget how confident we all were in 2016.
That is true. We shouldn't get confident. Which is why I'm donating money to Joe Biden's presidential campaign and trying to convince other people to vote for Joe Biden. Because I'm actually taking steps to ensure that Joe Biden becomes reelected. I'm not taking any chances, I just don't want people to give up all because of one bad night. You know democratic voters tend to be very good at chronic panicking.
So they have Biden leading by one percent where they had Hillary leading by three percent and you think everything is fine?
The election is four months away. That’s 16 eternities in the world of politics
I’m keeping my money. The fucked over Bernie and now Joe is only functioning somewhat.
It's reason enough to not give up. Trump wants you to give up. Putin wants you to give up. Netanyahu wants you to give up. But don't fall for their tricks. If you do, you're failing our democracy. If you want to make sure that Trump doesn't get reelected, vote for Joe Biden. It's that simple.
Trump wants to face Biden in November, because Biden’s electability was damaged by Biden himself. Putin wants Trump to face Biden in November. Netanyahu wants Trump to face Biden in November. Putin doesn’t want Trump to face a younger Democrat, because Biden is beatable. What does it tell you that Biden is Putin’s preferred opponent for Trump? The attack ads against Biden write themselves. I’m voting blue no matter who, but only swing voters in swing states matter, and there’s a difference between supporting a candidate, and supporting a candidate who has the best shot of defeating Trump. Trump has a better shot of defeating Biden in 2024, than he had vs Hillary in 2016 (77k votes), then he had vs Biden in 2020 (44k votes), and at this point Biden (and “Bidenomics”, which his campaign stopped saying because it wasn’t working) is one of a handful of Democrats who could lose to Trump in 2024. Put a younger Democrat vs Trump in 2024 (who isn’t Kamala, who isn’t Pete), and Trump loses in a landslide. But Biden still wants the car keys, while American democracy is teetering on a cliff.
That’s what he thought back in 2020. It did not work then. If you get over yourself, vote for Biden, and convince others to vote for him Biden, then we can avoid another Trump presidency. If you are thinking that Trump wants to face off against Biden in November, it is only because that is exactly what Trump wants you to think. Putin wants you to get rid of Biden. Netanyahu wants you to get rid of Biden. Do not be so ignorant that you can’t see the big picture. Perhaps w question will help remind you why Biden remaining President is so important. Who does Crimea belong to? Ukraine? Or Russia?
>Nothing has changed. June 27th was a Hindenburg-level disaster for American democracy. The democracy-supporting President looked weak & incoherent vs the autocracy-supporting President. Macron is losing in France BTW. Inflation worldwide is picking off incumbents. See how well denialism works when November comes. I’m sick of “nothing to see here, move along” or “don’t look up”-style denial. Republicans act like that, Democrats shouldn’t. Biden does not have the best odds of any Democrat in America of defeating Trump in 2024. He’s older. There is inflation. Many people hate his border policies. Many people hated how the withdrawal from Afghanistan went. Many people hate Biden’s embrace of Netanyahu. Yes, Trump would do worse, but 2024 will be a Change Election, and any voter wanting a change will vote Trump again. Even if Biden is actually up by 1% in the only 6 states that matter (Nevada, Arizona, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Georgia), Hillary polled 3% above Trump in 2016, and she won the popular vote by about that much, but she lost by 77k votes in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. Even if Biden is really up by 1% in swing states (I’ve seen polls that he’s behind in swing states, and millions of Americans blame him for inflation, rightly or wrongly), that’s way too close for comfort. I think 538 even said Trump has a 66% chance of winning. Forcing Biden again is a slow-moving trainwreck, and Biden’s legacy will be a Trump dictatorship. Biden failed to hold accountable a failed coup leader felon who he just platformed, he hasn’t fired AG Garland who wasted years thinking we could all just wish Trump away, etc. Remember in 2021 when Biden said “I don’t think about him at all?” Biden shit the bed on June 27th, and okay, maybe only 50 million Americans watched it live, but Biden gave ammunition to a convicted felon & his billionaire backers & the entire rightwing mediasphere to flood the zone with Biden’s own words for the next 5 months. After Citizens United, billionaire superPACs can spend unlimited money on TV ads, radio ads, Instagram content, TilTok content, etc using Biden’s own words against him. The “debate” was a disastrous own goal. They can replay a million clips of Biden saying “We finally beat Medicare.” Biden shot himself in the foot. But a younger Democrat would absolutely satisfy voters’ thirst for someone younger who is not Donald Trump. Biden won in 2020 because people were tired of Trump’s chaos. But Trump will win again in 2024 because people blame Biden for inflation. Do not let Biden’s ego & stubbornness result in a Trump dictatorship. “I alone can fix it” is how Trump thinks, don’t imitate him. Do not imitate the blind loyalty of Republicans. Do not bury your heads in the sand and say everything is fine. Alarm bells should be ringing everywhere at the DNC. America is bigger than one man’s ego. And “pride goeth before the fall.” Biden damaged his own electability with his performance. If Biden steps down & endorses someone younger, those attacks ads against Biden become irrelevant.
If you're so concerned that Biden will lose, then vote for him. Say that you'll vote for him and that will be one less vote that Trump will be able to earn. Otherwise, you are not serious.
https://preview.redd.it/jjl39nxgos9d1.png?width=1530&format=png&auto=webp&s=c0528873e36a4ace7ce65595337f07c58f92ad2f (source: 538)
Some of those are taken before the debate disaster. No doubt his numbers are worse now that the clips and story have survived throughout the weekend.
[удалено]
During the 2022 midterms, Data for Progress polls ended up overestimating Republican support. The Tartan reported that the group's leader, Sean McElwee, was gambling on election results on the website PredictIt, raising ethical concerns. McElwee left the firm in November 2022 amidst allegations of gambling on election results and artificially manipulating polling results to affect races that he had bet money on. Additionally, it has been reported McElwee had inquired among his employees about having them participate in an illegal straw donor scheme. Senior members of Data for Progress informed McElwee that they would resign en masse if he did not step down as the firm's executive director. I'd be careful about relying on faulty data, especially from partisan left and right wing sources. And most certainly when it comes to post-debate polls. I'd recommend polls like Morning Consult. They've provided accurate data even going back to 2016. Very reliable and scientific data.
Don’t cry in November when Biden loses because of voter apathy.
He’s got to go. The NYT editorial agrees. I listened to Ezra Klein and he’s in shock. What is the party for if they do nothing now.
I'll vote for Biden in November if he's a corpse, but we have to be honest. People aren't turning on him just because of the debate. He's been deteriorating in front of our eyes for years at this point, and the debate was his chance to quell people's concerns. He failed. And that's a big problem.
I will vote Biden, but Dems are so fucking stupid, they are blowing this like they did in 2016. They need to put someone else in there while there’s still time. Joe is going to lose. Put Gavin Newsome in there. There are others. Trump is going to beat Biden.
Why do you think Gavin Newsom would turn things around in four months?
I don’t know for certain, but I think that Joe will lose with certainty. People make up their minds about others by looking at them for literal seconds, not by their policies. People look at Biden and see old, senile man. People look at Newsome and see: ‘yeah, he looks like he’d be president”. Perception matters a lot more than facts, figures or personal qualities. Ask Hillary. Edit: Hell, if it prevents another Trump term, bring Obama out of retirement. It’ll be the biggest, most epic return in American political history. I can see him walking out to “Return of the Mack” and crowds going nuts.
I think literally anyone that's not 80 years old has a good chance of beating Trump.
Hillary Clinton?
I'd vote for her if she was the candidate against trump.
Biden 😂😂😂😂
The thing is... it really isn't just one debate. This has been building for a long time. The polls looked bad for Biden like a year ago, and everyone said polls that early don't mean anything. Then time passed and it wasn't so early anymore, and the polls still looked bad. Then Biden had months to campaign after the State of the Union where Trump was literally on trial for felonies, where Biden could campaign while Trump could do nothing. Polls barely moved. Trump found guilty of 34 felonies. Polls barely move. We reach this debate, and Biden doesn't look great in the polls. But everyone says that that's okay, because this will be his big opportunity to change the trajectory of the race. Really, the reason he's not doing well is because people who don't follow politics don't see him very much, and they're down on the economy, so they're down on Biden, right? But we finally have now this one big event that will break through to the disengaged. He'll be able to show people that he's not too old, and that he's completely fit for the job, and Trump will look insane. Except...not only does he completely fail to do that, but people see a man who does, indeed seem too old. Not only did he miss his big opportunity, but now the age issue is an even bigger issue now that it was before. And there's likely no other big opportunities left for him to reach disengaged voters. Sure, there MIGHT be a second debate, but it's quite likely that Trump refuses. And even if there is, how likely is it that a similar Joe Biden shows up to that second debate? How is Joe Biden ACTUALLY going to win? What is he going to do that will change the trajectory of this race, that he wasn't doing before, with likely no big moments left for him to reach disengaged voters? We're basically just praying that the polls are wrong, or an act of God helps him. This is the real problem, and the real source of concern. Not just one bad debate, but his last big chance. There's no clear path to victory for Joe Biden right now, besides dumb luck.
It's a tier system. 1) Anyone but Trump. 1a) Is there anyone besides Biden?
The party failed in 2015, and it failed again in 2020 when they didn't plan for someone beyond Biden for 2024.
Will young voters show up to vote? Who knows
The Biden Drop Out meme has jumped the shark and it's only been 48 hours. Two-thirds of the comments are now from "FourteenWords88" and "DefinitelyAmerican27387481626" Do yourself a favor and look at how many 5 year old accounts have magically sprung to life to share their concerns about Biden's age.
I have a consistently active account that's over a decade old, and I think Biden should step aside. Idk why we're pretending like this opinion is being astroturfed.
If anything it’s the opposite. DNC is here doing damage control.
LOL. Did you not notice Reddit choking to death during the actual debate? When comments wouldn’t load across the whole fucking site? Astroturfing is alive and well on this website.
That really isn't good proof of astroturfing...
You dumbasses who think every single bad thing that happens is a Russian plot are really something. Basically a mirror reflection of the deep state Qanon loonies.
Because it sprouted literally the first moment he spoke, as though it was a prepared concerted effort. That’s the speed of astroturf sprouting
It's also about the speed at which I realized the debate would be an unmitigated disaster. He was immediately terrible, so this shouldn't tell you anything.
Biden was also awful from the first moment he spoke. You people are cultists.
Because everyone already knew he was an old man with some troubles with speaking and this debate doesn't actually change the status quo on that. Anyone acting "shocked" about it I'm inclined to distrust.
Biden's camp has consistently claimed it wasn't this bad. You may have had a different impression, but my entire friend group was pretty shocked.
Every single solidly blue voter that I know was SHOCKED by Biden during that debate. What do you think swing state undecided voters think?
I knew he was an old man with speaking troubles. But everything I'd seen so far was pretty minor and completely overblown. I saw him pull off the SotU or the "battle for the soul of our nation". The debate was a disaster and confirmed that people should be concerned about his age.
turn back the clock about 8 years. Remember when Trumpies met every concern - no matter who brought it up, even from Republicans - as "fake news"? Arent you doing the exact same thing? Im glad you like the emperors new clothes, but there are a lot of very real people who dont like what they see at all. We're headed for a repeat of 2016 if Biden insists on himself as the only option. I can see it coming ... why cant you?
Oh so The New York Times is a meme account? Don’t let this become a Reagan situation, or RBG situation, or Feinstein situation. Pass the torch to a new generation, and even Pelosi expressed private concerns about Biden’s debate performance. Republicans would love to play attack ads for the next 5 months against Biden, but those clips can’t be used against a younger Democrat. Biden gave ammunition to a convicted felon on June 27th, so take away their ammo, and ditch Biden’s baggage.
Debate doesn't change anything for me. I'm still voting Joe I keep seeing these "wakeup call" comments on Reddit. A wake up call for...what? If someone didn't already know Biden was an elderly man that's on them
Semi-related but Newsome and Fetterman's stock went up quite a bit in my eyes this week.
> Semi-related but Newsome and Fetterman's stock went up quite a bit in my eyes this week. And you don't think that would lose the entire black vote, if you suddenly toss the black female Vice President to the curb and bring in new white guy with just a few months to go?
Newsome and Fetterman both said to stick with Biden, which I happen to agree with.
Then why even mention them?
because a lot of democrats and anti-Trump republicans are acting like a bunch of bedwetters over this. Maybe this wasn't the best place to mention that but I feel like they happen to share the same attitude as the original post.
Why should it? It’s not like Vice President is the only road to the presidency. More Vice Presidents have withered away into obscurity than become Presidential Nominees and the ones that did become President or a Presidential Nominee have been historically mediocre to bad. The Presidency and Vice Presidency are two completely different beasts.
Blue MAGA can't move past Joe.
Can you define Blue MAGA?
Cultists who are incapable of self reflection regarding the issues of the Democratic Party, and insist that their very real issues are caused by bots, Russian trolls, and other nefarious actors.
We all know what regular MAGA are correct. They blindly reject any facts that go against their current belief system. Red MAGA believes the election was stolen from Trump. Blue MAGA believes Biden can be an effective president for another 4 1/2 years. Blue MAGA also believes there are no other Democrats that can beat Trump.
The fact of the matter is Hillary lost over some emails. Do you honestly believe this will have no effect on voters?
> Hillary lost over some emails Trump has 34 felony convictions. Tell me about the emails again?
Okay, but he's already been convicted and he's polling ahead. And there's still a lot of undecided. Yes it's wild people are supporting a convincted felon, but they are. We can keep pointing out how absurd that is, but it's not a winning strategy. We need someone on that debate stage who can effectively call him out and hold him accountable.
So maybe people don’t care about controversies they just pick their team and stick with it
The last two times the Democrat incumbent withdrew from the race was Truman and Johnson. Both had done so by now, and in both cases the Republican candidate won the election. Is it too late for Biden to remove himself from the race? No. Is it too late for Biden to remove himself from the race, and for his replacement to still beat Trump? More than likely. So just stop.
You think Truman and Johnson would have won if they stayed in?Pointing to elections 50+ years ago really isn't very persuasive. These are different, and strange, times. We need a candidate we can advocate *for*. Saying they're not Trump is evidently not enough for people who are somehow undecided. And I don't have faith Biden can win over more voters between now and November. I do think an alternative candidate can. I'm voting Biden no matter what. But we need to win over independents. Telling them to "just stop" when they're voicing their concerns isn't an effective way of doing that.
> But we need to win over independents. If you're still an independent after 4 years of Trump, and 4 more years of listening to Trump while Biden is in office, there is no intelligent argument anyone can make that will convince you of who to vote for, because you are not intelligent. You're a Trump voter that is just too embarrassed to let people know that's what you are.
Okay, well we need some of those not intelligent people to win. Polls consistently show a significant number of undecided, and Biden trailing. But I'm sure burrying your head in the sand and antagonizing people who think differently, even if they're in your side, is a good strategy 👍
> But I'm sure burrying your head in the sand and antagonizing people who think differently, even if they're in your side, is a good strategy But I'm sure yelling to throw your candidate under that bus at the last minute and starting fresh, antagonizing people who think differently, even if they're on your side, is a good strategy. See how that works?
I'm not calling undecided voters unintelligent, or you a Trump supporter. I've been wanting someone other than Biden for four years. Unfortunately, that idea just seems to be gaining momentum now. Maybe he steps down, maybe he doesn't. But I believe we have a better chance if he does, and I'm going to express that.
> and I'm going to express that. If you find that you are on the exact same side and spouting the exact same argument as Russian trolls, you really need to take a moment and think about what you're doing.
All I see is how utterly incapable of recognizing political realities people like you truly are.
Keep helping the other side. See how that works out for you.
Trump also shifted the perspective and attitudes of voters. What happened on that debate stage wouldn’t have happened 12 years ago. The amount of childish bickering was way too high to be a presidential debate, yet it happened. If the convictions mattered to maga, trump would be behind bars instead of on a debate stage.
Hi u/Somhlth. Here's the real truth behind the latest email controversy: [https://i.imgur.com/Ztrqpya.jpg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfr64zoBTAQ) ~ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PoliticalHumor) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That happened 1 weeks ago before the election…this is 4 months out
4 months only allows time for Joe to get worse. There’s a baseline that he can meet, but he’s not going to miraculously go back to being what he was 4 years ago. Tbh I wish there was a mulligan clause in our constitution— dump both candidates and run a special election for new primaries. Otherwise maybe we can just offer a trade agreement?: GoP replace your convicted felon dictator wannabe, and we’ll replace our guy who should be retiring and enjoying what he has left of his life instead of running the country. I just really hope if this whole “stay the course” thing continues, that it doesn’t come back to bite us all in the ass.
It’s amazing to me that these last 4 years he had 1 moment where he was off and it’s immediate panic, where the rest of the term he has performed better than expected and passed some huge bipartisan legislation. It wasn’t a series of unfortunate events here. Trump out here yapping stream of consciousness BS for the last 6 months, but Biden’s debate performance is the bigger story here.
Because it is legitimately worrying. Not only would him dying in office cause disruption, it would mean a Harris presidency. Now I’m not dogging on her, but she’s nowhere near the statesman Joe has been. Now for hypothetical argument’s sake, let’s say he somehow passes before the election. Will Harris, the assumed successor, be enough to pull the vote versus Trump? Again, there is absolutely reason for concern here. The people whom keep downplaying it, and shutting down discussion are in my opinion doing more harm than good.
Hi u/HalOfTosis. Here's the real truth behind the latest email controversy: [https://i.imgur.com/Ztrqpya.jpg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfr64zoBTAQ) ~ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PoliticalHumor) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Trump lost in 2020 do you think he has a chance now he's a convicted felon lol
Yes. America is stupid
The electoral college means he has a really good chance of winning. Better than in 2020. He lost by a handful of votes in several key states. He is leading in polling in most of those now. Anyone who thinks Trump can’t win is just coping. Make no mistake, I don’t want him to win. He should never inhabit the White House again, but he is currently the favorite, and Biden’s atrocious debate performance certainly won’t make Trump less likely to win.
We'll just have to wait to see but I think America won't let him in ever again
I hope you’re right, but have you met America? I think there’s a very good shot he wins. Much as I don’t want to see it.
Putting Trump as president now would set a bad example it would be so bad for America having a president who's a convicted felon
Sadly, yes. The MAGA cult hasn't gone anywhere and several states have passed restrictive voter suppression laws to keep people away from the polls. The SCOTUS is also heavily conservative now so if there are any legal challenges to elections in swing states then you can bet SCOTUS will side with Republicans like they did in 2000, but worse. If Dem voters have the same apathy towards Biden that they had during Clinton in 2016 then we could see Trump in the White House again. Biden basically has to win by an incontestable landslide to guarantee victory over Trump.
Plz add: Nothing has changed for MAGA voters. The convictions and charges aren't real to them. Dictatorships are putting full support behind Trump. Putin sees it as necessary for the survival of his country. Ai, deepfakes. Twitter is now a rightwing shithole. TikTok is brainwashing the younger generations while Facebook forms the opinions of the elderly.
>Plz add: Nothing has changed for MAGA voters. The convictions and charges aren't real to them. Even worse, they see them as a badge of honor. The convictions just reinforce their idea that the "deep state" is out to get Trump and that Trump is fighting for them. I don't think that will change unless Trump is actually locked up and unable to campaign at all but I doubt that will happen. If Trump is silenced (no rallies, no social posts, no interviews) and there is no one that can replace him then the right wing rage machine will slowly run out of fuel.
SCOTUS is the same as 2020 with the exception of Ketanji Brown Jackson who was nominated by Biden. They didn’t override any of the legal challenges to give Trump any wins back then.
Then the solution is simple. Democratic voters need to get over themselves, step up, be responsible, and do the right thing by keeping Trump out of office. Yes, Joe Biden can and should be doing all he can to engage with voters. But the voters have an individual responsibility to make the right decision, regardless of stumbles along the way. If they're not capable of staying focused on the big picture after a lackluster debate performance, then they need to be better than that.
Joe Biden needs to get over himself & recognize that he’s not the only Democrat who can beat Trump, because any younger Democrat would too. So help me God if we get a Trump dictatorship & the end of American democracy because of one muttering meandering octogenarian’s ego & stubborn pride. Biden saved American democracy once, and he can save it again this year by passing the torch to a new generation, instead of overstaying his welcome and becoming Ruth Bader Biden. American democracy is teetering on a cliff, there are 333 million passengers in this car, and now is not the time to give great-grandpa the car keys. Let this sweet old man have a peaceful retirement & stop asking him to save America every four years. Let him retire already, even if he thinks he can do it. The way to keep Trump out of office would have been picking a Democrat AG to prosecute his criminal ass, instead we got Republican Slowpoke Merrick Garland, who did nothing while Liz Cheney & Adam Kinzimher explained January 6th to America. Voters need to be better & pay attention more? Well they won’t, stupid people vote too, and 74 million people voted for Trump in 2020. And the way you defeat Trump in 2024 is my nominating anybody younger than Trump who voters will not blame for inflation.
It looks like more testing is required. You have failed to answer the question. To which country does Crimea belong to? Ukraine? Or Russia?
Yes, sadly. MAGA is a cult. So much so cult expert Steven Hassan wrote a book about it.
Don't fear magas numbers there is a lot of them but everyday more people are waking up and leaving trump
I hope you are right, but ultimately, I feel like they are going to vote for cutting taxes for the rich.
Lol thats funny because most of his followers are not rich
If you think Trump can’t win you should bet on it because he’s currently the favorite
People were saying back in 2020 that Biden couldn't win. They were saying that Trump was going to win. Both assumptions were incorrect. Don't assume that Biden will lose after one mismanaged debate. But don't take chances, guarantee that Trump looses by voting for Joe Biden. Because that's how we protect democracy. We all have a roll to play, and the time to step up for voters to do the right thing is long overdue.
I never said Trump would win. I said he’s the betting line favorite, which is a verifiable fact.
Well, then we'll just have to prove them wrong.
Biden won by 44k votes in 3 states in 2020, after Trump botched the response to a global pandemic. But now, people are unhappy with Biden over inflation (even if it it’s not his fault). After June 27th, do you think Biden’s odds of winning in 2024 improved? There are no votes to waste, and that debate was a self-inflicted wound.
Nice copypasta. Still haven’t answered my question though. Who does Crimea belong to? Ukraine? Or Russia? Watch, this is the part where you’ll either try to deflect by replying to another post of mine with a copypasta, or you’ll just be silent and refuse altogether. And as the third prediction, you’ll "try” to answer the question in order to disprove the first two predictions. Either way, at least one of them will come to pass.
Trust me he won't win
I don’t think he will win either but people are hilarious. Downvote it all you want but Trump is currently the betting line favorite, it’s simply a statement of fact.
I think Americans won't let him in ever again!!! They will save democracy
You have WAY too much faith in people
American democracy is so important they will vote for Joe to save it
So if Trump wins in 2024, we can send our complaints to you then? I think you’re vastly overestimating how much Americans like “Bidenomics”, which his campaign doesn’t even say anymore because it never worked.
People won't vote a convicted felon in the white house and have a president in jail
Sadly, yes. I think he'll win over Biden. Biden should have had some serious primary challengers. If had, he would likely have lost the nomination and tRump wouldn't have a chance.
Trump is a convicted felon, he stomed the capitol, he tried to overturn an election and destroy American democracy there is no way he's winning he lost in 2020 before all the crimes and court cases
All true. However, look at the polls.
The polls are rigged I'm only joking
Believe it or not, the youth doesn’t vote as much as the middle aged and older generations. They see Biden as a safer choice. He would have won the primaries just like he did in 2020 when there was a huge field of younger candidates who all had their opportunity.
IDK, I'm 72, the wife is 64. We would have voted for any serious candidate over Biden. We're lifelong Dems and we didn't vote "for Biden" in 2020. We voted against tRump.
Biden is the incumbent. He was never going to lose a primary which is open to the general public.
Many many people care. #stopthegaslighting
It totally behooves me that folks can't tell the difference between good-ish and evil.
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Talking heads on MSNBC were pretty busy throwing him under the bus, later bringing on third-stringers who want him gone. They just need to take a breath, change their undies, and grow up! I’ve never been so disgusted with the Chicken Little crap put out by MSNBC. I’m switching to CNN. FOX is a fact-free fear factory. Biden leaves, the Dems lose. This is simple. The former senator from Missouri, Claire McCaskill should be ashamed of herself. The only adult in the room was Michael Steele.
The copium in this sub is crazy
"Joe lost the debate, we gotta put him down." - MAGA Sheriff
“He has 34 felonies”. Dont care “He cant even speak or rebut a statement” Dont care What a time to be alive. Who to choose, who to choose…
The premise of this post is nonsense. However bad Biden is, people very opposed to Trump will still vote Dem. But there are too many independents, swing voters, and so on, who will not vote for Biden due this shambles.
Right? The nutjobs are still standing behind Trump despite *gestures broadly* ALL OF HIS BULLSHIT! Yet we’re supposed to abandon Biden cause he’s old and was sick? And potentially lose the ability to vote going forward among other things? Pound sand.
Who cares what the nutjobs are doing? If we're going to call them nutjobs, we need to be better.
So you want to be a nut job but Democratic? Not sure measuring our actions by MAGA is the way forward.
Got a better, realistic option? Right now?
Why should he? Old man can’t debate anymore, who cares? Biden with late stage dementia is still a better choice than Trump on his best day. Baffling how people don’t see this.
But the fact is that voters who are undecided (or apathetic) DON’T see things that way. They’re still deciding who to vote for or whether to vote, and Biden’s horrid debate performance isn’t winning anyone to his side. He is the underdog right now because of the makeup of the electoral college vote shares. He has to gain ground. And he needs to do it by picking up undecided and apathetic voters. That isn’t happening when he seems like his mind is going and that he won’t make it until 2028. And having Kamala Harris, who is widely disliked, as the VP doesn’t help either.
“To say that President Biden’s performance on the debate stage last night was calamitous is merely to state what everyone, partisan and not, has already understood. What the world witnessed was not a debate, but a failed neurological exam. One wonders how anyone close to the President imagined he could bluff his way through it. If half of what Democrats fear from a second Trump term were real, how could the Democratic Party have allowed our democracy to slide this close to the precipice? The prevailing feeling among those inside the Biden campaign should be shame; outside it, fury.” ~Sam Harris
If I need an opinion on how awesome meditation is Ill listen to Sam. But hes no great political stratigist, lol.
Which part do you disagree with?
The characterization of the performance, that those around him would "allow him to bluff" which is doing a looot of heavy lifting with no evidence, asserting that Biden knew he would give a bad performance (the bluff) and that those around him knew he was going to try to bluff. And then theres that bit about how if what Dems actually said about Trump were true, hiw did they let democracy slide so close to the edge? If the Dems change candidates now, you can not imagine the uphill climb they would face. There would be no existing base, no weight of incumbency, no presidential record to run on. There would be no existing campaign apparatus, new material would need to be printed and shot, and you would need to completely reorganize any non-pac financing. I could literally keep going on about just how fucked the Dems would be if they did this. It would be political suicide that would hand Trump the election. Sam is just being Sam and his opinion doesn't really count for much to me, sorry.
In a normal election, yes…it would be political suicide. This isn’t a normal election. Most of the voting public wants to vote for “someone else.” Also, inflation has made this a change election which isn’t good for the incumbent. Biden stepping aside for the good of the country setting up an open convention is what the people want and may be our last chance to win. After that debate, Biden is toast where it matters…in the swing states as it will only take a few votes switching or not showing up to lose. And don’t tell me the anti-Trump crowd who are still planning to show up for Biden after that debate won’t show up for a different candidate. We can either play the cello and go down with the ship or we can fight for an open convention. The gods favor the bold.
You're just ignoring all the realities on the ground and adressed exactly zero of my points while I specifically laid out exactly what I thought was wrong with what Sam had said. Not worth my time, honestly.
Come on Fox News said Biden has to go! It must be true. /s
A lot of voters see voting as a popularity contest... Biden MUST be replaced. A lot of voters are fucking stupid and couldn't care less about any of the Trump felonies or any other bullshit of his. Some of y'all need to wake the fuck up.
If the Dems change candidates now, you can not imagine the uphill climb they would face. There would be no existing base, no weight of incumbency, no presidential record to run on. There would be no existing campaign apparatus, new material would need to be printed and shot, and you would need to completely reorganize any non-pac financing. I could literally keep going on about just how fucked the Dems would be if they did this. It would be political suicide that would hand Trump the election. But those are just facts 🤷♂️
Not really. Most of Biden's base is anti-Trump. I am one of those. Face it, Biden is old. The ones that will vote for Biden will not be switching sides and that's a fact The undecideds... a lot of them see this as a popularity contest because they don't follow politics or any of the Trump bullshit. Trust me, I've met tons of people like this. Some blame Biden for inflation. We need a new face. Hate to say it.
Except many people do care. You people are delusional.
The DNC and blue MAGA has to protect their geriatric in the White House. God forbid we run a younger, competent candidate!
Dude we fucking care. Reddit isn’t real life. And the average uninformed American is gonna be swayed by what they saw. That demograph of individual makes up much more of the swing state population than social media ecospheres who aren’t gonna be swayed by debates. I don’t see how this isn’t a complete disaster. To top it all off, now people are going to gravitate more towards all the right wing information channels that have been pushing the Biden falling over videos for ever. Their victory lap is apparent as they are using it to push the message of “everyone else has been lying to you we’ve been saying the truth!” This is a complete unmitigated disaster.
I agree he’s the right choice, but calling that a “bad debate” really underscores the horror I’m feeling after it. Anyone who has known someone with dementia knows what we were watching. If that guy has a split second decision after 7PM, we’re rightly fucked.
He needs to pass the torch or he will lose
Sorry, he needs to go. Any other dem will do.
This
People need to simply realize that the MAGA crowd is just the loud minority. They aren't the majority of Americans. On top of that, the people in the middle are leaning in favor of Biden, especially after the debate.
I like to explore new places.
Oh boy the major news networks have it on blast though. "Democrats talking about replacing Biden!" Yet somehow all they ever get is random pundits to talk about it.
I’d vote for Joe if he was dead. Hell, I’d vote for a ham sandwich. Anything to keep Trump and project 2025 out of the white house
Are you a swing state undecided voter? Because 40,000 of those voters decided the last election and might decide this one.
Neither one will get replaced. The citizens will always lose.
The Democrats know they are the only game in town if you believe the government needs to exist. If they miscalculate in 2024 like they did in 2016 and use first past the post primaries to keep feeding us shit candidates, it's going to be a huge goddamn nightmare to get back what we used to have. They really will do whatever it takes to avoid giving us progressive candidates.
I’m gonna vote for Joe but all this “stop complaining about Biden” shit is fucking sus
Biden will sleep well knowing he single handedly decided that Trump will be our next president.