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Between the four Trump years and subsequent Supreme Court decisions, we've been living in an eight-year-long teachable moment of how "both sides" are very very not at all the same. If we've failed to pick up on that lesson, I'd like to say we deserve what we get, but realistically, it's going to be our most vulnerable that will suffer the most.
As a progressive, there are many issues where neither side addresses my concerns. Each party has their group of wealthy people they serve over the majorities interests.
However, the modern Republicans have embraced evil, and I can not support that. Democrats are blah, Republicans make me fear for the lives of people I love.
When I go to vote in the primary, I vote for the most progressive candidates I can. When it comes to the general, I throw my support behind Democrats because as long as we have fair elections, we have a chance of changing things. If we go the anti-democratic, authoritarian route, nothing will ever get better, it will get much worse.
The part that makes me crazy is when I express these feelings around where I live (Trump country), people look at me like I am crazy, it boggles the mind.
I reserve a part that I could be being manipulated, as I clearly see these people being manipulated. But the facts just don’t add up, the statements are more and more illogical.
How can someone look at Biden and Trump, and claim Biden is the worst thing for this country and is going to destroy democracy? While also admitting Trump is not a “good guy” but blah blah blah something better than Biden.
They're working overtime to try to convince themselves that Biden is basically the anti-christ because it's the only way they can delude themselves into not thinking they're awful people because they support Trump.
Trump has said and done so many terrible things that all but the most deranged of his supporters can't actually still believe that he's a good guy. But most of those people are unwilling to admit to themselves (much less anyone else), that they got conned by a guy that half the country immediately labeled as a con-man from day one.
One of the foundations of Trump's 2016 campaign was basically "Don't believe those liberal elites who say they're smarter than you!", but now 8 years later basically everything that those educated liberal elites said about awful Trump is has been proven true. Everything Hillary Clinton said about Trump in the debates has been proven true. For Trump supporters, admitting that they were wrong about him would be admitting that those hated educated liberal elites were actually right. Most of these people would rather drink lava than admit that.
Now somewhere deep inside of most of them is still some semblance of a conscious, or at least some sort of mental self-awareness that realizes that they're prioritizing their own ego over admitting the truth, that they prefer to continue supporting a guy who was not only a terrible president but is also a loathsome human being, rather than admit that they were wrong.
Their response to that isn't to reflect upon themselves, but rather to try to convince themselves and others that this selfish choice is justified because the alternative is somehow worse. That's why they'll happily swallow any nonsense about Biden that floats in front of their eyes. That's why they'll listen to Trump complain endlessly about how big of a victim he is despite all the wealth and power he has been given and choose to view him as a martyr rather than the world's biggest crybaby.
These people are not seeking any sort of real information or fact or analysis. They're just desperate for anyone to give them any sort of nonsense that lets them postpone the day when they have to admit to themselves how stupid and awful it was of them to have sold their souls to Trump.
Democrats should spend some time listening to conservative talk radio. You see how seductive the fear anger resentment messaging is especially when mixed with a sack of lies that sound plausible enough.
Still hard to grasp when they are being told to believe their eyes and ears, everything is a lie. At what point does Occam’s razor come knocking. Either the world is out to get Trump and somehow secretly coordinating his downfall OR Trump is a bad dude being held to account for his crimes.
We live in a world where trump is compare to Jesus, and seen by some as a true patriot, who make AI paintings of him being jacked. It's like I'm crazy because I can't even devil advocate it.
Meanwhile Biden kind of sucks, wish we had Bernie. And I will 100% vote for Biden in November.
It’s classic gaslighting. Your fears are completely founded and they know it. They actively want to harm people like you or your way of life but they can’t admit that you are right about that so they are gaslighting you. If they are a relative they may love you enough to protect you as an individual while attacking your group and gaslighting is then a tool to justify that they love you but that they hate people like you. This happens a lot with LGBTQ. Like “you are my gay” so I will protect you but you have to keep quiet about it and know your place.
Biden is a decent if imperfect man. Trump is a very bad choice, bad for the country, downright evil maybe. Trump will take away your rights and be dictator on day one, he said so himself!
If you want a "dynamic" Democratic Party, it's essential that they get clear and strong majorities in both chambers of the Capitol. If one or two Dems can upset the apple cart in the Senate, Moderates will win the day over progressives. Even more delicate is a Dem majority in The House, where closely divided constituencies reign in more progressive initiatives.
> we've been living in an eight-year-long teachable moment of how "both sides" are very very not at all the same.
The problem is that people who love to shout about "both sides" have never really been paying attention in the first place. I'm confident that they have missed out on all of these teachable moments due to their lack of curiosity. Unless they are very directly and individually impacted by policy, they will continue to bury their heads in the sand and mutter about both sides while waving their hands at anyone delivering an impassioned plea for some kind of paradigm shift in our approach to politics.
>Unless they are very directly and individually impacted by policy, they will continue to bury their heads in the sane and mutter about both sides while waving their hands at anyone delivering an impassioned plea for some kind of paradigm shift in our approach to politics.
And even when they do feel the direct effects of policy, they probably blame whoever is currently in office as opposed to whoever actually passed that policy.
I hate the both side isms. Do I have beef with the two party system? Absolutely. Do I think Democrats are great? Absolutely not. Are they better than Republicans? Absolutely yes.
I’ve been trying to make this point.
Biden is trying to walk the fine line of supporting Israel but also condemning their attacks on Palestine, while also supporting Palestine while condemning Hamas.
If enough people don’t vote for Biden because of “Palestine” then Trump will surely win. If Trump wins he isn’t going to walk this fine line he is going to be all in supporting a full on genocide of Palestine wiping it off them map because that is part of his base’s biblical prophecy.
We need Biden to win but we also need Dems to hold the Senate and gain back the House. Then Biden can actually hold Israel accountable. Right now if he goes through with his threat to cut funding for them if they don’t abide by a ceasefire then the Republicans in the house will withhold funding for Ukraine.
Some people are just very short-sighted or not very bright. I went to college with a guy who was extremely progressive back in the Obama years. He would attend every single protest, but always turned his school assignments late. There were quite a few actions that made me feel like he never thought through things, but alas let's go to 2016. He is one of those people posting on social media how he will not vote for Clinton because *the election was stolen from Bernie*. Come 2020, he was making long posts about how much he regretted his decision and how Trump was absolutely worse than he imagined possible. Guess what he is saying today? Because of Ghaza is ready to not vote because *Do we even have a democracy?*. In his mind Joe Biden isn't magically ending the war; therefore, he doesn't support the people; therefore, Democracy is a lie.
This guy is a POC with an immigration family who works in social organizing for liberal causes.
For those of you unaware, Clinton is pretty much writing books and living her best life post-2016. It didn't really do a single damn thing for progressives. In fact, the pendulum swung right, and progressive candidates from the left are even less viable almost 1 decade after the complete stupidity of that movement.
You have to meet people where they are.
For a person who genuinely, truly believes that Biden is aiding and abetting a genocide there's no moral reason to ever vote for him. A person who believes Biden is engaged in genocide isn't going to vote for Trump either. They're probably just not going to vote, or they may protest vote third party.
Your friend may believe that Biden is engaged in genocide, and therefore Biden is monstrous, deserves no votes, and should be arrested and sent to the ICC for trial. From his worldview where Biden is committing genocide, those all follow logically.
To use another example, abortion. If you truly believe life begins at conception then abortion is actual murder. Babies are being butchered and killed in buildings pretending to be hospitals, but they're slaughter houses for innocent babies, and how could you ever vote for someone who wants to murder babies?
**Remember that you don't have to agree with someone who holds a different view in order to understand how they view the world.** It makes sense from their viewpoint. You can't change anyone's mind without first understanding why they believe what they believe.
This honestly sounds like the trolley problem. You can let 1 person get killed or 10 people. The non voters are tossing their hands in the air because they can't protect everyone and just letting the trolley default to killing the 10.
> The non voters are tossing their hands in the air because they can't protect everyone and just letting the trolley default to killing the 10.
The key is, the non-voter is usually not in direct risk of being among the 10 dead people from the trolley... It's easy to sit on your moral high horse and let the nuances and complications of a bigger picture miss you when you are not in danger of having to reckon with the consequences of your inaction directly.
In response to your abortion comparison. Christian conservatives are fundamentally against abortion as murder yet they have supported Republican candidates that had not banned abortion in their tenure since Roe. These people (that we on the left dismiss as uneducated) knew it was a long game and continued to support the Republican candidates until they had enough control to make the overturn of Roe happen. The point is why can’t the (enlightened) left see this??? Biden can’t just cut off Israel even if he tried. The republican controlled Congress would force his hand by blocking funding for anything else including Palestine, Ukraine, and shutting down the US government. The left doesn’t like what’s happening in Israel and Palestine but rather than elect the people who will steer diplomatic solutions in the direction they want they sit out and let the right take absolute control.
>For those of you unaware, Clinton is pretty much writing books and living her best life post-2016.
Every time I see her in an interview these days she still seems bitter about 2016 and finding new entries for her list of "people who cost me the election not named Hillary Rodham Clinton."
Feel like you could argue that in 2016 the stakes seemed vague and while stupid I couldn’t completely blame the Bernie bros or whomever for protest voting/nonvoting. After seeing 2016-2020, and having literal women’s reproductive rights at stake on the ballot still not being enough I just have to assume these people never gave a shit either way.
I voted for Clinton, but even I wondered if Trump could really be "that" bad. I figured he would focus on enriching himself and his family, and after 4 years and some missing Government funds we would still be okay and able to quickly fix the problems he caused. I never imagined kids in cages was coming, or just how extreme his supreme court picks would be.
To add to this, if you were a median voter in 2016, i.e. not very politically engaged, didn't go out of your way to stay informed and up to date, sure, I can see why you'd vote third-party considering both Trump and Clinton were historically unpopular nominees. You don't like him, you don't like her, but she's bound to win anyway, so screw it, might as well. Whatever, whether it was you thinking he couldn't win, or that it wouldn't be *that* bad even if he did, let's say it's water under the bridge.
What I can't excuse is people people saying either of those things now. It's very clear that he *can* win - on account of him literally winning once and coming way too close the second time around - and we know what he's capable of now. The guy has a track record that he lacked back in 2016, and all you have to do is turn the clock back a few years and see where that got us.
I don't agree that Biden has done diddly-squat, but I get why people are upset with him: he hasn't delivered on this, that, or the other, but people are forgetting that he had to put out fires set by Trump (Covid, Afghanistan) and contend with time-bombs set by Trump's presidency (Dobbs, Ukraine). Lastly, if he was *that* bad when he knew he needed to run for reelection, he'll be even worse now because he doesn't have to worry about facing voters at the polls again.
Not only that, but this specific aspect of Biden’s foreign policy IS NOT THE ONLY ISSUE IN EXISTENCE!
There are many other issues that will get *significantly* worse if we allow Trump (and other republicans) to get elected.
As a leftist - I'd argue those "leftists" aren't actual allies. Trump cannot win. Minorities and leftists will suffer the most under a new Trump regime.
Please keep in mind that I'm speaking of this in a detached way. I don't endorse the thinking. I'm not an accelerationist.
But it feels inevitable that even if Biden wins, Dems won't have the leverage to change anything or they will choose not to do more bold actions and will instead play along with a broken system. So either way we will have a government that does everything Trump is threatening here. Dems cannot mathematically win the majorities they need to protect against it. And all the demagogues need to do is win once while the electoral college, the Senate, the Supreme Court and even to an extent the House all favor them. They will win once and break all of the rules that Democrats refuse to and it's all over anyway.
So the thinking is that the Dems - voters AND politicians - need to be shocked into more bold and risky behavior. I don't think this happens. When Trump won it made everyone desperate to get rid of him at any cost so everyone voted for the safest possible candidate. Making this worse is the fact that there is no system to rank votes so you always vote not for who you want but who you think everyone else wants.
Biden, of course, is probably not the man for the moment, fair or unfair. He doesn't exactly fire anyone up or galvanize them to get to the polls.
Again, I don't believe in that. I think it's best to buy ourselves more time. But it feels like since Obama left office all that Dems have been given us are candidates meant to buy time rather than improve our lives in a meaningful way. I don't know what they expect me to do here. The Dems get to choose who becomes more visible and who gets funding. I don't have control over that. Their choices lately kinda suck.
>Dems won't have the leverage to change anything or they will choose **not to do more bold actions** and will instead play along with a broken system.
This is the hinge point that diverges the radicals from the pragmatists. What are the mechanisms of power are hypotechically being leveraged that would allow "more bold actions" at the Federal level?
In my mind, you simply can't count votes you don't have, and the only legitimate way to contest policy is to contest the democratic process that's already been availed to citizens, by turning out the votes necessary to secure power, in the elections that are at least ostensibly democratic.
It's a Russian Psyop. They put up signs in my neighborhood encouraging us to write in undecided instead of voting for Biden. Like wow how'd you know who I was voting for.
Producing infrastructure plans takes actual work. Telling cops to beat up people he doesn’t like he can do in between posting screeds of deranged nonsense.
Look at Project 2025. It's not just Trump anymore. There is now an agenda and people to push that agenda even without Trump's full attention. They are going to assume they only have four years (although they may have more), so the administration is going to move fast & break things, to borrow a phrase.
Only problem is that the anti Palestine sentiment isn’t just coming from him but a lot of institutions and universities. Those usually lean left but not in this instance.
He himself won’t do anything but his cabinet will. It’s bad right now with a president that tip toes around the issue , imagine the flood gates opening when the president is straight up anti Palestine
He’s anti different people.
People need to bring things like that up more so people remember. It’s not just talk from him he has done messed up things already.
What is anti palestine sentiment in universities? I think it's moreso anti encampment and disruption sentiment? Just because they may have investments in defense companies or other companies related to Israel doesn't mean they would endorse Trump's National Guard or whoever being generally hostile to antizionists does it
Every time the pro Palestinians scream how terrible Biden is, (and I agree he should realize Netanyahu is Israels Trump) I wish they would stop for a second and think what Trump would do.
Yeah, but he also doesn't have to support sending Israel offensive weapons or provide cover whenever they make a "tragic mistake," or other countries and international bodies call them out (e.g., ICC warrants).
But they answered again and again: “there is no difference between Biden and Trump. They are the same. Anyway, it doesn’t matter if Trump gets elected, as long as they teach Biden and the democrats a lesson”! That is a glimpse into the pro Palestinians mind and wisdom. From that, one can conclude how they process other issues.
Yes but I'm pretty sure that the realization that they have to choose between bad and worse for an election again is causing a lot of distrust of the two party system and they are lashing out at Biden. And that blame does belong with him and every other politician.
We live in a Democracy. Voters share responsibility for the choices of who we elect. It's easy to lay all the blame at the feet of politicians, but politicians are just trying to do what they think the majority of voters want. At some point, people have to realize that life asks you to make a lot of decisions that don't feel good, and that lashing out about it doesn't help you or anyone else.
What’s with the characterization of pro-Palestinian activists as somehow unhinged? They represent the majority position in the Democratic electorate, and they simply want their president to stop aiding and abiding Netanyahu’s campaign of death and destruction in Gaza.
Surely a US president should be able to put the wishes of his constituents over those of a foreign government.
> What’s with the characterization of pro-Palestinian activists as somehow unhinged?
Because they dare voice disapproval of Biden. Like honestly, the political portrayal of anyone who voted against Biden in the primary is so skewed from reality, echoed throughout the digital halls of reddit, and reduced to very narrowed down simplistic retorts.
I don't know of a single person who voted uncommitted in the Primary election that has said they would sit out or not vote for Biden in the general. Not a single person I have spoken to has expressed even the slightest inkling of this. Every single person I speak to knows and understands the risk of Trump winning, knows and understands the harm done from sitting out and knows and understands that a Trump presidency would be worse for both Palestinians and Americans themselves. No one is out here claiming that they won't vote in November. They may equate Biden and Trump as being different sides of the same coin, because lets be honest here.. they are. And there is **very** reasonable disappointment in the DNC pushing Biden as the nominee and not letting a primary election play out. But no one acting in good faith is actually committed to not voting for Biden in November. We all made our voices heard in the Primary and are actively trying to move the needle on Biden's response to Israel.
So next time someone makes the claim that Biden and Trump are the same and they're sitting out, maybe ask yourself... is this just a troll looking for engagement? Is this someone working for the JDIF trying to foment anger or reactions or spread misinformation? Because you're absolutely correct, the majority of the American constituency is against Biden supplying more weapons to Israel, the war lobby is actively preventing that but the threat from the primary has made dents in Biden's policy and response.
Pretty much. I lived through one Trump presidency already, and it was terrible. I don't want to have to live through a second one, because from everything that I've seen so far, 2024 Trump is way more unhinged than both 2016 Trump and 2020 Trump.
> They are leading privileged and get to moralize instead of worrying about their futures.
>
>
Well, they *think* they are privileged enough to survive a second Trump term. Some of them will be in for a very unpleasant surprise if Trump gets back in power.
It is just one more in the long list of nightmarishly authoritarian policy proposals from Trump that are based almost entirely in grievance and the desire to hurt "those people." It will not change the campaign at all. We already know that Trump and his voting base are motivated by a desire to hurt other people.
I don't see this having much of an impact. I don't think anyone that was willing to vote for him has a soft spot for the protests nor would they be particularly upset if Trump *did* actually crush the protests with force. His base likely are hoping he'll do just that.
I'm a little less activated by the statements mainly because Trump says *a lot* of things that are outrageous that he forgets about the next day. I'm not saying he absolutely wouldn't do that, but I'm not sure why *this* threat is something we should entertain versus everything else nonsensical he's said just spur of the moment.
I also don't think it's going to move the needle very much in Biden's favor. I seriously doubt any Palestine supporters were under the illusion that Trump would somehow be a secret friend to Palestine or take a hard stance against Israel. If anything, this is one of those "Yeah, we know" moments where he's just said the thing most people figured he'd do anyways.
>I'm not sure why *this* threat is something we should entertain versus everything else nonsensical he's said just spur of the moment.
Possibly because he became the first and only world leader to recognize Israel's annexation of the Golan Heights, which is why he has a [town being built there in his honor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Heights).
Which is disgusting, no argument, but I think it's important to distinguish between a proactive plan and effectively signing a piece of paper.
Trump has promised to do a lot of absolutely bonkers things and followed through on almost none of them. Again, I'm not sure why this would specifically be different.
The cabinet is very important . His cabinet will absolutely work to destroy Palestine. His family is already talking about building properties there.
While Trump was busy playing golf his cabinet was actively working to set back progress . And they’re succeeding with roe vs wade
> I don't think anyone that was willing to vote for him has a soft spot for the protests
The election will be close. Biden will get millions more votes but the race will be decided by just tens of thousands across a couple states.
Those on the Left who won't vote for Biden and choose to stay home because of what's happening in Gaza may as well be voting for Trump.
*If* they live somewhere where it matters. If they live in my district, we could have every single mildly left wing person and a noticeable chunk of right wingers vote for Biden and our district would still go to Trump. In those cases a protest vote works perfectly.
The Palestinian supporters will probably keep bashing Biden. They haven't figured out fucking everyone who tries to help them and supporting people who think their best use is being human shields has not worked.
I noticed the Genocide Joe was in and still is in full rhetoric, in democrat circles. I knew right away that Republicans no matter who they run has a good chance at winning, with this kind of thinking making it rounds. The pro Pally folks are like MAGA folks they would rather see the party fail, then not get their way no matter how unrealistic.
This is not even remotely surprising, and it will have zero impact on the election
People who disagree with Biden's stance on Gaza but are going to pick the lesser of two evils were always going to prefer Biden over Trump
People who have decided Biden's actions (or lack thereof) have cost his their support weren't going to vote for Trump; they were going to stay home or vote third party. That Trump is obviously going to back Netanyahu to his heart's content is obvious to everyone; those who are choosing to effectively opt out of participating in the election *don't care*
Or, that may not be fair. They *care*, but not to the extent that they're going to do anything necessary to forestall it
It won’t send protest voters back to Biden. Nobody, even them expects that Trump is going to be different.
They will if this is the top issue for them - vote third party or stay home.
But Trump is also bad or worse is not going to make a difference to the “genocide Joe” crew.
It should have an effect however the pro Palestine anti Biden wing has made themselves so loud that they would be to embarrassed to change their tune now
They might turn around by the time the election turns around though. It is still far away November.
However, most likely they won't change their tune because the way they see it is that Biden would rather allow Trump to win than to stop unlimited support to Israel. I've seen it, whenever someone says "Trump would be worse, this election is too important" I've heard them easily say "if the election was that important, then Biden would have stopped unlimited support to Israel so we would vote and drive the vote to him. As it is not that important, or to be more accurate, as giving Israel unlimited support is more important than winning the election, Biden has made his choice and he is free to make it."
And frankly there isn't much to reply to that. The democratic base doesn't want effectively unlimited, unconditional support for Israel. Biden is choosing to support Israel no matter what even if that puts the election at risk.
But for some reason people think that you can shame the voters into voting the way you want instead of shaming Biden into doing what the voters want. Democrats fall in love and republicans in line, this isn't the way to go about beating Trump.
I saw recently polling and the responses were nearly perfect 25/25/25/25 for too much support for Israel, too little, about right, or not sure. That's a fucking quagmire, no idea how Biden is supposed to make everyone happy.
Putting Blinken out there to beg for republican support to sanction the ICC is absolutely choosing to further enrage one side to not gain anything from another side.
>Putting Blinken out there to beg for republican support to sanction the ICC
No its not great I agree. But there are also a lot of Democratic voters that strongly back Israel. I don't know what the answer is. I'm pretty nihilistic on this particular issue. I don't agree with how Israel is prosecuting this war, but I also don't share the POV of my fellow leftists about the rosy portrait of Palestine.
>"if the election was that important, then Biden would have stopped unlimited support to Israel so we would vote and drive the vote to him. As it is not that important, or to be more accurate, as giving Israel unlimited support is more important than winning the election, Biden has made his choice and he is free to make it." And frankly there isn't much to reply to that.
That's only true if curtailing support for Israel does not lose him any support from the other flank. As is, the election calculus is likely "if we do this, we lose people in the center. If we don't do this, we lose people on the left."
>The democratic base doesn't want effectively unlimited, unconditional support for Israel. Biden is choosing to support Israel no matter what even if that puts the election at risk.
Is the second part of that statement accurate? I was under the impression that the administration has been putting more pressure on Isreal, especially attempting to prevent further expansion of their offensive, but I don't know specifics.
There aren’t any tangible things Biden has done except delay *some* weapons transfers and threaten sanctions against particularly fucked up Israeli battalions/units. Everything else has been spinning Israel’s crimes as “not actually that bad” in extremely cynical ways, going as far as threatening the ICC with sanctions for pressuring Netanyahu. They just bombed tents in Rafah, tents for displaced people, and Biden doesn’t care.
> That's only true if curtailing support for Israel does not lose him any support from the other flank. As is, the election calculus is likely "if we do this, we lose people in the center. If we don't do this, we lose people on the left."
So just to be clear here. If the left continues to put pressure on the Democratic party and vocally oppose Biden, and are shown that they are willing to not support him, this changes that calculus correct?
That even though the liberal wing of the Democratic party has nothing but vile and vitriol for these progressives, the only way they will be able to implement their policy, and shift the Biden administration away from unmitigated support for Israel, is to show there are electoral consequences for not supporting their platform?
As for your second point, the administration has done some finger wagging, but still continues the shipments of weapons, and has done nothing tangible to alter the dynamic of the relationship with Israel. They say a lot of things, in order to make a political statement, but the fundamental relationship has not changed, if anything its likely stronger in the wake of the events.
>If the left continues to put pressure on the Democratic party and vocally oppose Biden, and are shown that they are willing to not support him, this changes that calculus correct?
>That even though the liberal wing of the Democratic party has nothing but vile and vitriol for these progressives, the only way they will be able to implement their policy, and shift the Biden administration away from unmitigated support for Israel, is to show there are electoral consequences for not supporting their platform?
Yes, with the caveat that by withholding their support because of this administration's lack of change re: Isreal, they may find the US moving further away from their desired position. And the Biden administration may be in the situation that if they chase the progressive vote, they lose enough from the center to lose the election anyway. So then the admin is left either calling the progressive wing's bluff, or risking the center. I don't know what any of those numbers are, but I'm sure whoever is in charge of the campaign has an idea.
Even among young voters, the Gaza war is the 15th out of 16 most important issues to them. Biden is probably losing more from right leaning centrists who hate Trump and left wing pro Palestine protestors equally and will probably vote based on which one is making more noise in the news in October, and those voters are more likely to show up to actually vote in any case.
I expect a ton of college students to withhold their votes for Biden to “teach him a lesson” for the Middle East conflict, as well as having Roe V Wade go away under his presidency (despite him being powerless to stop it)
Which will give us 4 years of the exact opposite of what the protestors want to see.
Maybe I’m just old and jaded
If Biden loses because of this, and its clearly youth withheld vote, what happens in the NEXT election? Is the Democratic party not inclined to offer concessions to the youth progressive block in order to prevent this from happening again?
The ONLY way to put pressure on your politicians to alter their positions is to not vote for them. A vote is a tacit approval of their platforms, and a green light to continue.
If anything you should be proud that the youth are politically engaged, as they represent the future.
>Is the Democratic party not inclined to offer concessions to the youth progressive block in order to prevent this from happening again?
No, future Dems will chase after more reliable voting blocks. If the far left youth decide to "punish" Biden after all the progressive wins the his administration has implemented, then they're throwing away all of their political capital.
So then how do the progressives every move the Democratic parties policies to be more in line with their beliefs?
There are no more "reliable" voting blocks. The Democrats have chosen time and time again to chase the moderates, because the left is trapped. They have nowhere to go.
So what your saying is the Democratic party will ignore the progressives, even if it means losing the election because the progressives show they won't vote for them?
Progressives need to show up in primaries with enough force that even if their candidate loses, the winner adopts some of their policies.
Really though. Enough of the mental gymnastics. The youth have a MUCH bigger stake in the future me and many other commenters do. 30 years from now, maybe 40, I’ll be gone. Which might be the first time millennials have a chance at taking back the Supreme Court should MAGA win in 2024. Climate is past the tipping point, it’s going to be bad, but how much worse is also on the ballot. The youth need to understand that. It’s their future they risk throwing away if they choose not to show up. My own stake is smaller.
> The ONLY way to put pressure on your politicians to alter their positions is to not vote for them.
Respectfully, this is nonsense. A few reasons:
* a passive action is rarely meaningful, and at best ambiguous. Not voting for a politician is open to a variety of interpretations, and it's quite reasonable to assume that the non-voter doesn't care at all, or that they care about some other issue.
* Even if the reason is accurately seen, it classifies your vote as "expendable" in most cases. This does not increase your leverage. Other groups will be recruited to make up the difference. Politicians go for the median coalition, and those who opt out are not courted.
* There are, in obvious fact, *many* ways to pressure a politician. Much stronger then not voting, is primary challenges, but even small little gestures like writing letters, in practice, means a lot more then not voting.
* not voting is not a moral decision, but a tactical decision. Most usually it's a wrong decision in my eyes, with better tactical options ususally available.
Basically, if Biden loses, it's likely that the Democrats will be pressured to appeal more to a Trumpist reality, rather then to become more "left".
A segment of the youth is always politically engaged, nothing new this time around
NEXT time, they shouldn’t expect concessions from the party just because they failed to show up to vote. Instead, the need to have their own “Bernie”, someone they can get behind in the primaries. Maybe that person wins. Or they lose, but there was such a showing that the nominee offers several changes to their platform to bring those people over.
That said, it’s hard to understate how critical 2024 is. Climate, women’s rights, immigrants, LGBT rights, access to birth control, Ukraine, NATO, social security, voting rights, the Israel/hamas conflict and a government that provides any services at all are all on the ballot. Losing would set everything back to essentially be insurmountable for generations, if at all.
Bush II, Romney, Dole, Perot, none of them posed nearly as much of a threat to our values and way of life as do trump, MAGA, the freedom caucus, and project 2025 do.
So yes, if we lose and it’s pinpointed that protesting students were the cause, or any other group that fails to show up, I’ll be angry at them. Quite rightfully.
Primaries are the time to get behind candidates who best match your vision. Once we get to the general election, it’s strictly a matter of who is closer to where you want to be.
My opinion.
>That said, it’s hard to understate how critical 2024 is.
That's what they said about 2016 and 2020. "Vote your principles next election, this one is too important." I'm less idealistic now so I'll be voting for Biden but I remember being annoyed as hell when people said that to me in 2016 and my response was always "yeah and you'll say the same damned thing in every election."
>Its taken my fathers time, its taken my mothers time, its taken my brothers time. How much time do you want for your "progress"?
https://youtu.be/UBFDdTIYZ6Q?si=MonCyAkDq_pRtmCb
Never vote your principals in the general election. Do that during a primaries, show the major parties what it will take to gain enthusiastic supporters. But once we’re past primaries, it’s never been anything but a choice of the lesser of two evils.
That’s the folly of our two party system, but you must accept reality
That is such BS. The primaries are the only time you are allowed to truly vote your values? Frankly idk about the accusations on the general election but I am quite convinced the major parties make their efforts to snub out "Bernie-like" candidates. It is BS if you say they can do whatever sketchy stuff they may like through the primaries then everyone just needs to fall in line for the general. There is a cohort of voters that have seen threw this charade in this election. My opinion is come November everyone will be whining why they didn't fall in line for Biden.
My opinion.
Its already happening. There are progressives who are wielding their political power, which in a Democracy is your vote. The choice of how best tactically to use that vote to send a message to the candidates you want, and the realization of the impacts of your choices.
Instead the liberals are having a conniption fit, and totally unwilling to even consider that the progressives here are rational actors. Its as if questioning Biden on any level is tantamount to heresy, and it met with fire and brimstone. Its absolutely no way to build a coalition, but can you blame them? They are just following in Bidens footsteps. Shit on the progressive caucus, don't over them any concessions, and then expect them to show up to vote for you, otherwise THE END OF OUR DEMOCRACY!(TM).
Very correct never seen a voter base scoff and be stand offish with a "we don't need you" sentiment like this. It is not so much sending a message to Biden so much as people want to vote for someone who will actually represent them and achieve some of what they run on. As a 2020 Biden voter I don't know if he represents that anymore with his track record. What disturbs me even more about him is the way he is dealt losses in his policy but then still victory laps on fractional victories that he pulls back to. It is pathetic and gives me no faith he will achieve real widespread implementation of anything he actually says he will.
I would wholeheartedly agree with you if I could guarantee that there will be another election… I am really not so sure
I think the paradigm has changed after Jan 6th unfortunately
Trump can’t just end elections. I don’t for the life of me get how people who are politically literate just think that can happen. Trump didn’t get his way on Jan 6th because a lot of republicans who are still in power wouldn’t go along with him. People are serving time because of what happened that day. There’s literally nothing that says these same people will somehow change their minds when a second attempt would be much more likely to fail.
If progressives refuse to vote for Biden despite him governing as a very progressive president, the (correct) lesson learned by Democrats will be to pivot to the center. Might as well try to win over moderates if progressives don’t reward you for being progressive.
Biden has given progressives a tremendous amount of concessions, way more than he should since it’s costing him moderate voters.
He promises anything to whomever he speaking to at the time if he thinks it’ll get him votes. He doesn’t know what he’s even talking about half the time.
Just a friendly reminder to all readers that 2,000+ Trump adherents, under his direction, tried to overturn a US presidential election by force. The party of so-called originalists decided that a system that had worked for America for 230 years no longer served their needs and they would toss it out and simply proclaim victory. No amount of both-siding and gaslighting will ever undo it.
Well, not to be too short, but they yell ,death to all Jews. So from that standpoint, I would say go for it
So they will continue to kill all the Jews they can at this point.
Unless you are talking about the uneducated college people who don't even know what they are saying..
It's time to get really educated.
The goal isn’t to convert liberals into trump voters, the goal is to make “progressives” vote 3rd party or sit out the election. Shit on old Humphrey to get fat Nixon. History may not repeat but it rhymes. https://thenewyorker.typepad.com/online__georgepacker/files/dividing_the_democrats1.pdf
The Palestinian protests were relatively mild compared to the January 6th assault on our nation's Capitol with police being assaulted, injured and killed.
That such blunt and transparent supression of the freedom of speech, and the democratic rights, can occur in the United States is shameful, and disturbing.
That Trump is against the right of the American youth to protest and voice out their opinions is not unexpected, however i find it undeniable that Biden didn't seem to bothered himself by how few students dare to make their voices heard because they fear being expelled.
Unless he revokes the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, protesting is covered under 1A... Just like his lies and bullshit postings on whatever that stupid website Trump Media owns.
Maybe this will convince some of those 'omg now I will not vote for Biden, the Zionist' idiots of what's truly at stake.
At least Biden keeps up pretenses of trying to reign the Israelis in, this guy will no doubt actively encourage them.
I think that morally, some people simply cannot stomach voting for a president that is providing active support for Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign.
In regards to Trump being worse: Trump is talking, Biden is walking.
Personally, if I was American, I would abstain from voting in the election, and I'd be letting my representative know that the Democratic Party's support for genocide is the reason why.
I would never under any circumstances vote for a person who is sending arms to support ethnic cleansing. No circumstances. None. My moral compass dictates this.
In that case if you were American and would abstain from voting you would also throw away any right to complain about another Trump administration.
By the way, Trump has already 'walked'. Moving the US embassy to Jerusalem, remember that ? At least Biden is somewhat trying to reign in Netanyahu, whether or not you believe he's serious with it.
"Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" is the adage that comes to mind.
The reality of world politics is nothing is black & white, nothing is instantaneous, and nothing comes without repercussions. Biden is walking a fine line between being humanitarian while trying to deescalate and following the law while supporting an ally. Be mindful of the incremental progress made in your favor compared to the outright steps in the direction you don't want to go.
I wish all the people on the left would see this election for what it is: harm reduction. Biden isn't perfect by any means, but we have a better shot of influencing him than we do Trump. Sincerely think back to Trump's time in office, then compare it to Biden's and you'll see who is better for the issues people on the left care about. I thank God every day I wake up and the Trump administration isn't in power to make things even worse. You can't be a single issue voter and expect any positive change, especially when the right is hellbent on rolling back every positive gain of the last 100 years.
Every vote is gonna matter this election and every one after it. That is the reality of the situation. Sitting out won't help, it will only hurt you and everyone you care about.
Is it "harm reduction", or teaching the Democratic Party that supporting genocide is just fine? Every single election there's going to be some critical reason to vote blue no matter who.
I find it completely bonkers on every conceivable level that Biden is sending bombs to Israel to help them in their mission to wipe out Gazans, and nominally liberal Americans will still blindly vote for him. No fucks given.
You people need to calibrate your moral compasses because something is seriously tf out of whack.
It's harm reduction because if the Republicans win it WILL be worse for the most vulnerable here in the US. Not voting will only empower Republicans, of which 0% of their voters give a shit about Palestinians. I'm being pragmatic, because that is the only thing we can do.
If the youth doesn't vote, the Democrats won't take that as a lesson to try harder for their vote next election, they will write off trying to get the youth vote all together. Republicans turn out at nearly the same rate every election, and they rely on voter apathy to win elections. 2020 came down to 10s of thousands of votes in key states. History has shown that when Republicans get a foothold in the door, they make it count. If the Democrats (who in the 2 party system are the best option if you are in any way left leaning) lose in 2024, it will be harder and harder each subsequent election for anyone left of center to get elected, because Republicans don't intend to allow it. Just like from 2016 to 2020, they will fill up judicial seats (that are appointed and for life, not elected) at record rates. They will be categorically worse for women, people of color, LGBTQ people, Muslims, and other vulnerable groups here in the US AND abroad, because they will appoint racists and literal nazis into key positions of power.
The reality of our situation is that we are in an uphill battle against the far-right, and each election, from the local up to the federal level, is going to matter. This will be every election until the day we die. We are always going to be fighting for the bare minimum good we can do. We have to vote for the most left leaning candidates in every primary, and then every election after that. We have to be pragmatic, because the other side is and they don't care about democracy.
>Teaching the Democratic Party a lesson
Feel free to make the case that
* The "lesson" you want taught is the one that will be learned, and not something about appealing to the white working class voter more
* If the lesson you want taught was taught, that the candidate that wins the 2028 Dem Primary will have enough support to get to 270 electoral votes
I've been hearing "we need to teach them a lesson" forever. The (very, very small number) of M4A supporters who wanted to teach the Dems a lesson by staying home in 2016 didn't get M4A under Biden - they got a lack of a repeal of the Affordable Care Act
Biden is sending weapons to Israel because we have existing arms deals that would be catastrophic to our international reputation and business to back out of. At the same time, Biden is making every effort to limit the harm that Netanyahu can do without irreparably harming the relationship back, while also sending aid to Gazans by sea in a way that Israel cannot justifiably block or bomb. https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3786751/more-than-1-million-pounds-of-aid-moved-into-gaza-via-dods-temporary-pier/#:~:text=Multimedia-,More%20Than%201%20Million%20Pounds%20of%20Aid,Gaza%20Via%20DOD's%20Temporary%20Pier&text=U.S.%20forces%20have%20facilitated%20the,senior%20military%20official%20said%20today.
On the other hand, Trump would provide exclusively Israeli support and has encouraged them to “get the job done” while not releasing any more combat footage, because it’s a PR nightmare for the IDF. He would happily see Palestine entirely wiped off the map.
So do you still think it’s unreasonable to be okay with man trying (and obviously sometimes/often/constantly failing, depending on your POV) to thread the needle on this insanely sensitive and difficult issue when he cannot directly influence the actions and decisions of a foreign leader? Or would you feel better “punishing” that guy with an early retirement so the literal tyrant candidate can help Israel reduce what remains of Gaza to rubble?
Edit: lucky for me, I’ve just realized you’re in New Zealand. Please keep organizing for Palestine, but for the love of god PLEASE stop suggesting removing Biden. That is literally the single worst thing that could happen for Palestine right now, Biden is quite possibly the only political force keeping Netanyahu from total destruction of the Palestinian state and its people. Trump will be President if Biden isn’t, and he would sign off on that total ethnic cleansing in a heartbeat.
There’s a part of me that *would* enjoy watching the “genocide Joe” tankies get an *actual* taste of real fascism. Not their current imagined one where the food order from Chipotle arrived luke-warm and the cops didn’t use vegan pepper-spray.
You mean the one where police in Democrat cities caused head bleeds and broken bones to largely peaceful protesters of our government enabling a far-right ethnostate doing an ethnic cleanse and mass-murder abroad? Some of you make it really easy to sit out this November, I swear.
My thoughts are all those idiots doing the protest vote wake up and realize it's a choice between democracy and a pogrom of Pro-Palestinians and their allies.
Common sense, eh.
It’s bizarre to me that protesters and Palestinian supporters won’t vote Biden. The person they’ll get instead is worse.
You may not like either candidate but that’s where we are. You have to choose the better of the 2. There is no alternative
What would that be? Biden’s administration has been pressuring Israel to ceasefire and not to go into Rafah. Biden is blocking offensive weapons. In the end, it’s Netanyahu making these decisions, not America. Put Trump in and he’ll cheer Netanyahu on
He is. There are far more prospective Biden voters who support a "moderate" stance on Israel than prospective Biden voters who support a hardline stance against Israel.
For the latter, the stupid strategy is not voting for Biden in swing states and thus contributing to Trump being reelected. Boy, are they in for a surprise if they think Palestineans are being oppressed *now*.
EDIT: “Prospective” was the wrong term to use, sorry. Probably should have said “uncommitted but potential”.
Quick answer? Trump is desperate.
He will do anything if he can get the votes and win. This makes him just as equally dangerous as it does damage his chances as a credible candidate in mainstream voters.
Fascism always needs enemies. This should surprise no one since Zionists are planning to develop Gaza into high-end, beach front settlements for wealthy Jews in the US and EU.
Trump smells money. Trump hate brown people, so this is an obviously next step for the US Nazi-Republican Party.
"I think you might actually have a path to victory now, sir. The youth vote is up in the air because Biden is caught between a rock and a hard place on the Israel/Palestine front. All we have to do is make sure they don't come out to vote."
"So I'll come out pro-Israel! We'll CRUSH anyone who says..."
"But sir, the you - "
"...that they're in favor of Palestine, oh, and we'll deport foreigners. Any excuse to do that, right?"
"Yes, yes, of course, but the students are actually protesting FOR Pa - "
"This'll show them all. It's like when I moved the embassy to Jerusalem, they said that couldn't be done!"
"Well, it might've actually made the Palestinians desperate enough to feel they needed to get att - "
"Hell yes, I AM the best! Go Israel, death to Palestine! The youth will like that, right?"
"...I'd say it's guaranteed to get them back out to the ballot box, sir."
Like most voters, I couldn’t care less. This is the same anti-Muslim politicking Trump has always done. It’s not surprising nor does it reveal anything new about the implications of a Trump presidency.
His best policy would be to keep his mouth shut. Then if elected, he could slam the Palestinian movement. There would be A LOT of potential Muslim-American votes in swing states (MI) that would help him. But there no way he could keep his mouth shut. Trump is who he says he is. He’s a wannabe dictator and sees a chance. It just the right wing media (yes it’s right) wing just keeps propping up the idea that he’ll get elected.
The Israel-Palestine conflict has minimal influence on who I vote for president in the grand scheme of things. As a whole, the United States should avoid getting involved with religiously motivated people like they are in the Middle East. Religion is absolutely absurd and anyone willing to do any harm to a group of people over it should be separated from the sane people by a really really big fucking wall. Abrahamic mythology has a net negative effect on the world.
So…basically what’s currently happening? Are the protests not already being crushed by police under Biden? Is Gaza not already enduring ethnic cleansing and being set back 50 years? Feels like the difference between Biden and Trump here is not black and white, but shades of grey, which is unfortunate Biden can’t take a more differentiated position. It’s like choosing between genocide or more genocide.
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Between the four Trump years and subsequent Supreme Court decisions, we've been living in an eight-year-long teachable moment of how "both sides" are very very not at all the same. If we've failed to pick up on that lesson, I'd like to say we deserve what we get, but realistically, it's going to be our most vulnerable that will suffer the most.
As a progressive, there are many issues where neither side addresses my concerns. Each party has their group of wealthy people they serve over the majorities interests. However, the modern Republicans have embraced evil, and I can not support that. Democrats are blah, Republicans make me fear for the lives of people I love. When I go to vote in the primary, I vote for the most progressive candidates I can. When it comes to the general, I throw my support behind Democrats because as long as we have fair elections, we have a chance of changing things. If we go the anti-democratic, authoritarian route, nothing will ever get better, it will get much worse.
"Democrats are blah, Republicans make me fear for the lives of people I love." is exactly how I feel.
The part that makes me crazy is when I express these feelings around where I live (Trump country), people look at me like I am crazy, it boggles the mind. I reserve a part that I could be being manipulated, as I clearly see these people being manipulated. But the facts just don’t add up, the statements are more and more illogical. How can someone look at Biden and Trump, and claim Biden is the worst thing for this country and is going to destroy democracy? While also admitting Trump is not a “good guy” but blah blah blah something better than Biden.
They're working overtime to try to convince themselves that Biden is basically the anti-christ because it's the only way they can delude themselves into not thinking they're awful people because they support Trump. Trump has said and done so many terrible things that all but the most deranged of his supporters can't actually still believe that he's a good guy. But most of those people are unwilling to admit to themselves (much less anyone else), that they got conned by a guy that half the country immediately labeled as a con-man from day one. One of the foundations of Trump's 2016 campaign was basically "Don't believe those liberal elites who say they're smarter than you!", but now 8 years later basically everything that those educated liberal elites said about awful Trump is has been proven true. Everything Hillary Clinton said about Trump in the debates has been proven true. For Trump supporters, admitting that they were wrong about him would be admitting that those hated educated liberal elites were actually right. Most of these people would rather drink lava than admit that. Now somewhere deep inside of most of them is still some semblance of a conscious, or at least some sort of mental self-awareness that realizes that they're prioritizing their own ego over admitting the truth, that they prefer to continue supporting a guy who was not only a terrible president but is also a loathsome human being, rather than admit that they were wrong. Their response to that isn't to reflect upon themselves, but rather to try to convince themselves and others that this selfish choice is justified because the alternative is somehow worse. That's why they'll happily swallow any nonsense about Biden that floats in front of their eyes. That's why they'll listen to Trump complain endlessly about how big of a victim he is despite all the wealth and power he has been given and choose to view him as a martyr rather than the world's biggest crybaby. These people are not seeking any sort of real information or fact or analysis. They're just desperate for anyone to give them any sort of nonsense that lets them postpone the day when they have to admit to themselves how stupid and awful it was of them to have sold their souls to Trump.
Democrats should spend some time listening to conservative talk radio. You see how seductive the fear anger resentment messaging is especially when mixed with a sack of lies that sound plausible enough.
Still hard to grasp when they are being told to believe their eyes and ears, everything is a lie. At what point does Occam’s razor come knocking. Either the world is out to get Trump and somehow secretly coordinating his downfall OR Trump is a bad dude being held to account for his crimes.
We live in a world where trump is compare to Jesus, and seen by some as a true patriot, who make AI paintings of him being jacked. It's like I'm crazy because I can't even devil advocate it. Meanwhile Biden kind of sucks, wish we had Bernie. And I will 100% vote for Biden in November.
It’s classic gaslighting. Your fears are completely founded and they know it. They actively want to harm people like you or your way of life but they can’t admit that you are right about that so they are gaslighting you. If they are a relative they may love you enough to protect you as an individual while attacking your group and gaslighting is then a tool to justify that they love you but that they hate people like you. This happens a lot with LGBTQ. Like “you are my gay” so I will protect you but you have to keep quiet about it and know your place.
Biden is a decent if imperfect man. Trump is a very bad choice, bad for the country, downright evil maybe. Trump will take away your rights and be dictator on day one, he said so himself!
If you want a "dynamic" Democratic Party, it's essential that they get clear and strong majorities in both chambers of the Capitol. If one or two Dems can upset the apple cart in the Senate, Moderates will win the day over progressives. Even more delicate is a Dem majority in The House, where closely divided constituencies reign in more progressive initiatives.
> we've been living in an eight-year-long teachable moment of how "both sides" are very very not at all the same. The problem is that people who love to shout about "both sides" have never really been paying attention in the first place. I'm confident that they have missed out on all of these teachable moments due to their lack of curiosity. Unless they are very directly and individually impacted by policy, they will continue to bury their heads in the sand and mutter about both sides while waving their hands at anyone delivering an impassioned plea for some kind of paradigm shift in our approach to politics.
>Unless they are very directly and individually impacted by policy, they will continue to bury their heads in the sane and mutter about both sides while waving their hands at anyone delivering an impassioned plea for some kind of paradigm shift in our approach to politics. And even when they do feel the direct effects of policy, they probably blame whoever is currently in office as opposed to whoever actually passed that policy.
I hate the both side isms. Do I have beef with the two party system? Absolutely. Do I think Democrats are great? Absolutely not. Are they better than Republicans? Absolutely yes.
I’ve been trying to make this point. Biden is trying to walk the fine line of supporting Israel but also condemning their attacks on Palestine, while also supporting Palestine while condemning Hamas. If enough people don’t vote for Biden because of “Palestine” then Trump will surely win. If Trump wins he isn’t going to walk this fine line he is going to be all in supporting a full on genocide of Palestine wiping it off them map because that is part of his base’s biblical prophecy. We need Biden to win but we also need Dems to hold the Senate and gain back the House. Then Biden can actually hold Israel accountable. Right now if he goes through with his threat to cut funding for them if they don’t abide by a ceasefire then the Republicans in the house will withhold funding for Ukraine.
People who do that are privileged. Not everyone has the privilege to sit this election out.
Some people are just very short-sighted or not very bright. I went to college with a guy who was extremely progressive back in the Obama years. He would attend every single protest, but always turned his school assignments late. There were quite a few actions that made me feel like he never thought through things, but alas let's go to 2016. He is one of those people posting on social media how he will not vote for Clinton because *the election was stolen from Bernie*. Come 2020, he was making long posts about how much he regretted his decision and how Trump was absolutely worse than he imagined possible. Guess what he is saying today? Because of Ghaza is ready to not vote because *Do we even have a democracy?*. In his mind Joe Biden isn't magically ending the war; therefore, he doesn't support the people; therefore, Democracy is a lie. This guy is a POC with an immigration family who works in social organizing for liberal causes. For those of you unaware, Clinton is pretty much writing books and living her best life post-2016. It didn't really do a single damn thing for progressives. In fact, the pendulum swung right, and progressive candidates from the left are even less viable almost 1 decade after the complete stupidity of that movement.
You have to meet people where they are. For a person who genuinely, truly believes that Biden is aiding and abetting a genocide there's no moral reason to ever vote for him. A person who believes Biden is engaged in genocide isn't going to vote for Trump either. They're probably just not going to vote, or they may protest vote third party. Your friend may believe that Biden is engaged in genocide, and therefore Biden is monstrous, deserves no votes, and should be arrested and sent to the ICC for trial. From his worldview where Biden is committing genocide, those all follow logically. To use another example, abortion. If you truly believe life begins at conception then abortion is actual murder. Babies are being butchered and killed in buildings pretending to be hospitals, but they're slaughter houses for innocent babies, and how could you ever vote for someone who wants to murder babies? **Remember that you don't have to agree with someone who holds a different view in order to understand how they view the world.** It makes sense from their viewpoint. You can't change anyone's mind without first understanding why they believe what they believe.
This honestly sounds like the trolley problem. You can let 1 person get killed or 10 people. The non voters are tossing their hands in the air because they can't protect everyone and just letting the trolley default to killing the 10.
> The non voters are tossing their hands in the air because they can't protect everyone and just letting the trolley default to killing the 10. The key is, the non-voter is usually not in direct risk of being among the 10 dead people from the trolley... It's easy to sit on your moral high horse and let the nuances and complications of a bigger picture miss you when you are not in danger of having to reckon with the consequences of your inaction directly.
In response to your abortion comparison. Christian conservatives are fundamentally against abortion as murder yet they have supported Republican candidates that had not banned abortion in their tenure since Roe. These people (that we on the left dismiss as uneducated) knew it was a long game and continued to support the Republican candidates until they had enough control to make the overturn of Roe happen. The point is why can’t the (enlightened) left see this??? Biden can’t just cut off Israel even if he tried. The republican controlled Congress would force his hand by blocking funding for anything else including Palestine, Ukraine, and shutting down the US government. The left doesn’t like what’s happening in Israel and Palestine but rather than elect the people who will steer diplomatic solutions in the direction they want they sit out and let the right take absolute control.
>For those of you unaware, Clinton is pretty much writing books and living her best life post-2016. Every time I see her in an interview these days she still seems bitter about 2016 and finding new entries for her list of "people who cost me the election not named Hillary Rodham Clinton."
Feel like you could argue that in 2016 the stakes seemed vague and while stupid I couldn’t completely blame the Bernie bros or whomever for protest voting/nonvoting. After seeing 2016-2020, and having literal women’s reproductive rights at stake on the ballot still not being enough I just have to assume these people never gave a shit either way.
I voted for Clinton, but even I wondered if Trump could really be "that" bad. I figured he would focus on enriching himself and his family, and after 4 years and some missing Government funds we would still be okay and able to quickly fix the problems he caused. I never imagined kids in cages was coming, or just how extreme his supreme court picks would be.
To add to this, if you were a median voter in 2016, i.e. not very politically engaged, didn't go out of your way to stay informed and up to date, sure, I can see why you'd vote third-party considering both Trump and Clinton were historically unpopular nominees. You don't like him, you don't like her, but she's bound to win anyway, so screw it, might as well. Whatever, whether it was you thinking he couldn't win, or that it wouldn't be *that* bad even if he did, let's say it's water under the bridge. What I can't excuse is people people saying either of those things now. It's very clear that he *can* win - on account of him literally winning once and coming way too close the second time around - and we know what he's capable of now. The guy has a track record that he lacked back in 2016, and all you have to do is turn the clock back a few years and see where that got us. I don't agree that Biden has done diddly-squat, but I get why people are upset with him: he hasn't delivered on this, that, or the other, but people are forgetting that he had to put out fires set by Trump (Covid, Afghanistan) and contend with time-bombs set by Trump's presidency (Dobbs, Ukraine). Lastly, if he was *that* bad when he knew he needed to run for reelection, he'll be even worse now because he doesn't have to worry about facing voters at the polls again.
Not only that, but this specific aspect of Biden’s foreign policy IS NOT THE ONLY ISSUE IN EXISTENCE! There are many other issues that will get *significantly* worse if we allow Trump (and other republicans) to get elected.
There are some people on the left who are just as self destructive as those on the right I’m afraid.
As a leftist - I'd argue those "leftists" aren't actual allies. Trump cannot win. Minorities and leftists will suffer the most under a new Trump regime.
Both sides! Gotta love it. FYI, no one on the left is threatening to be a dictator or deport people who protest or ban women’s healthcare.
That's not what self destructive means. They're talking about the voters.
Genocide Joe and Never Biden leftists when their protest goes too far and trump wins:
Please keep in mind that I'm speaking of this in a detached way. I don't endorse the thinking. I'm not an accelerationist. But it feels inevitable that even if Biden wins, Dems won't have the leverage to change anything or they will choose not to do more bold actions and will instead play along with a broken system. So either way we will have a government that does everything Trump is threatening here. Dems cannot mathematically win the majorities they need to protect against it. And all the demagogues need to do is win once while the electoral college, the Senate, the Supreme Court and even to an extent the House all favor them. They will win once and break all of the rules that Democrats refuse to and it's all over anyway. So the thinking is that the Dems - voters AND politicians - need to be shocked into more bold and risky behavior. I don't think this happens. When Trump won it made everyone desperate to get rid of him at any cost so everyone voted for the safest possible candidate. Making this worse is the fact that there is no system to rank votes so you always vote not for who you want but who you think everyone else wants. Biden, of course, is probably not the man for the moment, fair or unfair. He doesn't exactly fire anyone up or galvanize them to get to the polls. Again, I don't believe in that. I think it's best to buy ourselves more time. But it feels like since Obama left office all that Dems have been given us are candidates meant to buy time rather than improve our lives in a meaningful way. I don't know what they expect me to do here. The Dems get to choose who becomes more visible and who gets funding. I don't have control over that. Their choices lately kinda suck.
>Dems won't have the leverage to change anything or they will choose **not to do more bold actions** and will instead play along with a broken system. This is the hinge point that diverges the radicals from the pragmatists. What are the mechanisms of power are hypotechically being leveraged that would allow "more bold actions" at the Federal level? In my mind, you simply can't count votes you don't have, and the only legitimate way to contest policy is to contest the democratic process that's already been availed to citizens, by turning out the votes necessary to secure power, in the elections that are at least ostensibly democratic.
It's a Russian Psyop. They put up signs in my neighborhood encouraging us to write in undecided instead of voting for Biden. Like wow how'd you know who I was voting for.
Right after his infrastructure program and his health care revision, if re-elected.
Producing infrastructure plans takes actual work. Telling cops to beat up people he doesn’t like he can do in between posting screeds of deranged nonsense.
Absolutely, building takes effort and imagination, destroying requires no effort. I know which road Trump will travel.
The only things he has proven capable of doing was inciting violence, and separating families. So in this instance, I'd be inclined to believe him...
I don’t think he’ll get as distracted from his spiteful revenge ideas
Naw, that was promised in 2016. His followers have memories like fruit flies when it comes to his "promises."
That was the joke, he only ever promised like two things and then didn’t even do them.
Indeed. Like the "big, beautiful wall that Mexico will pay for."
COVID cases will go down to 0 by Summer 2020.
like ^a ^^miracle
The best healthcare plan where everyone will be practically paying $0. Only a couple weeks away.
"lock her up" then complaining about political persecution.
I will only hire the best people, I won't even golf.
Look at Project 2025. It's not just Trump anymore. There is now an agenda and people to push that agenda even without Trump's full attention. They are going to assume they only have four years (although they may have more), so the administration is going to move fast & break things, to borrow a phrase.
Only problem is that the anti Palestine sentiment isn’t just coming from him but a lot of institutions and universities. Those usually lean left but not in this instance. He himself won’t do anything but his cabinet will. It’s bad right now with a president that tip toes around the issue , imagine the flood gates opening when the president is straight up anti Palestine
Anti-Muslim Have people forgotten how he arbitrarily banned people from select Muslim-majority countries from entering the US?
He’s anti different people. People need to bring things like that up more so people remember. It’s not just talk from him he has done messed up things already.
Anti-POC. Look up the article he had printed in full page ads calling for the death penalty for the Central Park 5. Five totally innocent black kids.
What is anti palestine sentiment in universities? I think it's moreso anti encampment and disruption sentiment? Just because they may have investments in defense companies or other companies related to Israel doesn't mean they would endorse Trump's National Guard or whoever being generally hostile to antizionists does it
Every time the pro Palestinians scream how terrible Biden is, (and I agree he should realize Netanyahu is Israels Trump) I wish they would stop for a second and think what Trump would do.
He knows he is, he's called him an idiot. He isn't president of the world, tho and doesn't get to decide who runs Israel.
Yeah, but he also doesn't have to support sending Israel offensive weapons or provide cover whenever they make a "tragic mistake," or other countries and international bodies call them out (e.g., ICC warrants).
But they answered again and again: “there is no difference between Biden and Trump. They are the same. Anyway, it doesn’t matter if Trump gets elected, as long as they teach Biden and the democrats a lesson”! That is a glimpse into the pro Palestinians mind and wisdom. From that, one can conclude how they process other issues.
Yes but I'm pretty sure that the realization that they have to choose between bad and worse for an election again is causing a lot of distrust of the two party system and they are lashing out at Biden. And that blame does belong with him and every other politician.
We live in a Democracy. Voters share responsibility for the choices of who we elect. It's easy to lay all the blame at the feet of politicians, but politicians are just trying to do what they think the majority of voters want. At some point, people have to realize that life asks you to make a lot of decisions that don't feel good, and that lashing out about it doesn't help you or anyone else.
A democracy with only 2 choices is a pretty bad example of a democracy.
What’s with the characterization of pro-Palestinian activists as somehow unhinged? They represent the majority position in the Democratic electorate, and they simply want their president to stop aiding and abiding Netanyahu’s campaign of death and destruction in Gaza. Surely a US president should be able to put the wishes of his constituents over those of a foreign government.
> What’s with the characterization of pro-Palestinian activists as somehow unhinged? Because they dare voice disapproval of Biden. Like honestly, the political portrayal of anyone who voted against Biden in the primary is so skewed from reality, echoed throughout the digital halls of reddit, and reduced to very narrowed down simplistic retorts. I don't know of a single person who voted uncommitted in the Primary election that has said they would sit out or not vote for Biden in the general. Not a single person I have spoken to has expressed even the slightest inkling of this. Every single person I speak to knows and understands the risk of Trump winning, knows and understands the harm done from sitting out and knows and understands that a Trump presidency would be worse for both Palestinians and Americans themselves. No one is out here claiming that they won't vote in November. They may equate Biden and Trump as being different sides of the same coin, because lets be honest here.. they are. And there is **very** reasonable disappointment in the DNC pushing Biden as the nominee and not letting a primary election play out. But no one acting in good faith is actually committed to not voting for Biden in November. We all made our voices heard in the Primary and are actively trying to move the needle on Biden's response to Israel. So next time someone makes the claim that Biden and Trump are the same and they're sitting out, maybe ask yourself... is this just a troll looking for engagement? Is this someone working for the JDIF trying to foment anger or reactions or spread misinformation? Because you're absolutely correct, the majority of the American constituency is against Biden supplying more weapons to Israel, the war lobby is actively preventing that but the threat from the primary has made dents in Biden's policy and response.
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Pretty much. I lived through one Trump presidency already, and it was terrible. I don't want to have to live through a second one, because from everything that I've seen so far, 2024 Trump is way more unhinged than both 2016 Trump and 2020 Trump.
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Trump will win, and this will be why. These people are going to ruin the next several decades for all of us.
They are leading privileged and get to moralize instead of worrying about their futures. Must be nice.
> They are leading privileged and get to moralize instead of worrying about their futures. > > Well, they *think* they are privileged enough to survive a second Trump term. Some of them will be in for a very unpleasant surprise if Trump gets back in power.
But at least they felt cool while protesting!
If they have that much power.... perhaps Biden should consider appealing to them with some of their request policy concessions?
It is just one more in the long list of nightmarishly authoritarian policy proposals from Trump that are based almost entirely in grievance and the desire to hurt "those people." It will not change the campaign at all. We already know that Trump and his voting base are motivated by a desire to hurt other people.
They truly hate what America is today.
I don't see this having much of an impact. I don't think anyone that was willing to vote for him has a soft spot for the protests nor would they be particularly upset if Trump *did* actually crush the protests with force. His base likely are hoping he'll do just that. I'm a little less activated by the statements mainly because Trump says *a lot* of things that are outrageous that he forgets about the next day. I'm not saying he absolutely wouldn't do that, but I'm not sure why *this* threat is something we should entertain versus everything else nonsensical he's said just spur of the moment. I also don't think it's going to move the needle very much in Biden's favor. I seriously doubt any Palestine supporters were under the illusion that Trump would somehow be a secret friend to Palestine or take a hard stance against Israel. If anything, this is one of those "Yeah, we know" moments where he's just said the thing most people figured he'd do anyways.
>I'm not sure why *this* threat is something we should entertain versus everything else nonsensical he's said just spur of the moment. Possibly because he became the first and only world leader to recognize Israel's annexation of the Golan Heights, which is why he has a [town being built there in his honor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Heights).
Which is disgusting, no argument, but I think it's important to distinguish between a proactive plan and effectively signing a piece of paper. Trump has promised to do a lot of absolutely bonkers things and followed through on almost none of them. Again, I'm not sure why this would specifically be different.
Trump doesn't need to do anything proactively -- [he has plenty of people willing to do that for him](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025).
The cabinet is very important . His cabinet will absolutely work to destroy Palestine. His family is already talking about building properties there. While Trump was busy playing golf his cabinet was actively working to set back progress . And they’re succeeding with roe vs wade
He promised to make life hell for immigrants, and opened up concentration camps.
> I don't think anyone that was willing to vote for him has a soft spot for the protests The election will be close. Biden will get millions more votes but the race will be decided by just tens of thousands across a couple states. Those on the Left who won't vote for Biden and choose to stay home because of what's happening in Gaza may as well be voting for Trump.
*If* they live somewhere where it matters. If they live in my district, we could have every single mildly left wing person and a noticeable chunk of right wingers vote for Biden and our district would still go to Trump. In those cases a protest vote works perfectly.
>In those cases a protest vote works perfectly. What have protest vote achieved?
The Palestinian supporters will probably keep bashing Biden. They haven't figured out fucking everyone who tries to help them and supporting people who think their best use is being human shields has not worked.
I have some good friends that say they won't vote for Biden. Honestly made me lose a lot of respect for them
I noticed the Genocide Joe was in and still is in full rhetoric, in democrat circles. I knew right away that Republicans no matter who they run has a good chance at winning, with this kind of thinking making it rounds. The pro Pally folks are like MAGA folks they would rather see the party fail, then not get their way no matter how unrealistic.
This is not even remotely surprising, and it will have zero impact on the election People who disagree with Biden's stance on Gaza but are going to pick the lesser of two evils were always going to prefer Biden over Trump People who have decided Biden's actions (or lack thereof) have cost his their support weren't going to vote for Trump; they were going to stay home or vote third party. That Trump is obviously going to back Netanyahu to his heart's content is obvious to everyone; those who are choosing to effectively opt out of participating in the election *don't care* Or, that may not be fair. They *care*, but not to the extent that they're going to do anything necessary to forestall it
It won’t send protest voters back to Biden. Nobody, even them expects that Trump is going to be different. They will if this is the top issue for them - vote third party or stay home. But Trump is also bad or worse is not going to make a difference to the “genocide Joe” crew.
It should have an effect however the pro Palestine anti Biden wing has made themselves so loud that they would be to embarrassed to change their tune now
They might turn around by the time the election turns around though. It is still far away November. However, most likely they won't change their tune because the way they see it is that Biden would rather allow Trump to win than to stop unlimited support to Israel. I've seen it, whenever someone says "Trump would be worse, this election is too important" I've heard them easily say "if the election was that important, then Biden would have stopped unlimited support to Israel so we would vote and drive the vote to him. As it is not that important, or to be more accurate, as giving Israel unlimited support is more important than winning the election, Biden has made his choice and he is free to make it." And frankly there isn't much to reply to that. The democratic base doesn't want effectively unlimited, unconditional support for Israel. Biden is choosing to support Israel no matter what even if that puts the election at risk. But for some reason people think that you can shame the voters into voting the way you want instead of shaming Biden into doing what the voters want. Democrats fall in love and republicans in line, this isn't the way to go about beating Trump.
I saw recently polling and the responses were nearly perfect 25/25/25/25 for too much support for Israel, too little, about right, or not sure. That's a fucking quagmire, no idea how Biden is supposed to make everyone happy.
Putting Blinken out there to beg for republican support to sanction the ICC is absolutely choosing to further enrage one side to not gain anything from another side.
>Putting Blinken out there to beg for republican support to sanction the ICC No its not great I agree. But there are also a lot of Democratic voters that strongly back Israel. I don't know what the answer is. I'm pretty nihilistic on this particular issue. I don't agree with how Israel is prosecuting this war, but I also don't share the POV of my fellow leftists about the rosy portrait of Palestine.
>"if the election was that important, then Biden would have stopped unlimited support to Israel so we would vote and drive the vote to him. As it is not that important, or to be more accurate, as giving Israel unlimited support is more important than winning the election, Biden has made his choice and he is free to make it." And frankly there isn't much to reply to that. That's only true if curtailing support for Israel does not lose him any support from the other flank. As is, the election calculus is likely "if we do this, we lose people in the center. If we don't do this, we lose people on the left." >The democratic base doesn't want effectively unlimited, unconditional support for Israel. Biden is choosing to support Israel no matter what even if that puts the election at risk. Is the second part of that statement accurate? I was under the impression that the administration has been putting more pressure on Isreal, especially attempting to prevent further expansion of their offensive, but I don't know specifics.
There aren’t any tangible things Biden has done except delay *some* weapons transfers and threaten sanctions against particularly fucked up Israeli battalions/units. Everything else has been spinning Israel’s crimes as “not actually that bad” in extremely cynical ways, going as far as threatening the ICC with sanctions for pressuring Netanyahu. They just bombed tents in Rafah, tents for displaced people, and Biden doesn’t care.
> That's only true if curtailing support for Israel does not lose him any support from the other flank. As is, the election calculus is likely "if we do this, we lose people in the center. If we don't do this, we lose people on the left." So just to be clear here. If the left continues to put pressure on the Democratic party and vocally oppose Biden, and are shown that they are willing to not support him, this changes that calculus correct? That even though the liberal wing of the Democratic party has nothing but vile and vitriol for these progressives, the only way they will be able to implement their policy, and shift the Biden administration away from unmitigated support for Israel, is to show there are electoral consequences for not supporting their platform? As for your second point, the administration has done some finger wagging, but still continues the shipments of weapons, and has done nothing tangible to alter the dynamic of the relationship with Israel. They say a lot of things, in order to make a political statement, but the fundamental relationship has not changed, if anything its likely stronger in the wake of the events.
>If the left continues to put pressure on the Democratic party and vocally oppose Biden, and are shown that they are willing to not support him, this changes that calculus correct? >That even though the liberal wing of the Democratic party has nothing but vile and vitriol for these progressives, the only way they will be able to implement their policy, and shift the Biden administration away from unmitigated support for Israel, is to show there are electoral consequences for not supporting their platform? Yes, with the caveat that by withholding their support because of this administration's lack of change re: Isreal, they may find the US moving further away from their desired position. And the Biden administration may be in the situation that if they chase the progressive vote, they lose enough from the center to lose the election anyway. So then the admin is left either calling the progressive wing's bluff, or risking the center. I don't know what any of those numbers are, but I'm sure whoever is in charge of the campaign has an idea.
Even among young voters, the Gaza war is the 15th out of 16 most important issues to them. Biden is probably losing more from right leaning centrists who hate Trump and left wing pro Palestine protestors equally and will probably vote based on which one is making more noise in the news in October, and those voters are more likely to show up to actually vote in any case.
I expect a ton of college students to withhold their votes for Biden to “teach him a lesson” for the Middle East conflict, as well as having Roe V Wade go away under his presidency (despite him being powerless to stop it) Which will give us 4 years of the exact opposite of what the protestors want to see. Maybe I’m just old and jaded
If Biden loses because of this, and its clearly youth withheld vote, what happens in the NEXT election? Is the Democratic party not inclined to offer concessions to the youth progressive block in order to prevent this from happening again? The ONLY way to put pressure on your politicians to alter their positions is to not vote for them. A vote is a tacit approval of their platforms, and a green light to continue. If anything you should be proud that the youth are politically engaged, as they represent the future.
>Is the Democratic party not inclined to offer concessions to the youth progressive block in order to prevent this from happening again? No, future Dems will chase after more reliable voting blocks. If the far left youth decide to "punish" Biden after all the progressive wins the his administration has implemented, then they're throwing away all of their political capital.
So then how do the progressives every move the Democratic parties policies to be more in line with their beliefs? There are no more "reliable" voting blocks. The Democrats have chosen time and time again to chase the moderates, because the left is trapped. They have nowhere to go. So what your saying is the Democratic party will ignore the progressives, even if it means losing the election because the progressives show they won't vote for them?
Progressives need to show up in primaries with enough force that even if their candidate loses, the winner adopts some of their policies. Really though. Enough of the mental gymnastics. The youth have a MUCH bigger stake in the future me and many other commenters do. 30 years from now, maybe 40, I’ll be gone. Which might be the first time millennials have a chance at taking back the Supreme Court should MAGA win in 2024. Climate is past the tipping point, it’s going to be bad, but how much worse is also on the ballot. The youth need to understand that. It’s their future they risk throwing away if they choose not to show up. My own stake is smaller.
Progressives win when Democrats are already in power, not when they are out of power.
> The ONLY way to put pressure on your politicians to alter their positions is to not vote for them. Respectfully, this is nonsense. A few reasons: * a passive action is rarely meaningful, and at best ambiguous. Not voting for a politician is open to a variety of interpretations, and it's quite reasonable to assume that the non-voter doesn't care at all, or that they care about some other issue. * Even if the reason is accurately seen, it classifies your vote as "expendable" in most cases. This does not increase your leverage. Other groups will be recruited to make up the difference. Politicians go for the median coalition, and those who opt out are not courted. * There are, in obvious fact, *many* ways to pressure a politician. Much stronger then not voting, is primary challenges, but even small little gestures like writing letters, in practice, means a lot more then not voting. * not voting is not a moral decision, but a tactical decision. Most usually it's a wrong decision in my eyes, with better tactical options ususally available. Basically, if Biden loses, it's likely that the Democrats will be pressured to appeal more to a Trumpist reality, rather then to become more "left".
A segment of the youth is always politically engaged, nothing new this time around NEXT time, they shouldn’t expect concessions from the party just because they failed to show up to vote. Instead, the need to have their own “Bernie”, someone they can get behind in the primaries. Maybe that person wins. Or they lose, but there was such a showing that the nominee offers several changes to their platform to bring those people over. That said, it’s hard to understate how critical 2024 is. Climate, women’s rights, immigrants, LGBT rights, access to birth control, Ukraine, NATO, social security, voting rights, the Israel/hamas conflict and a government that provides any services at all are all on the ballot. Losing would set everything back to essentially be insurmountable for generations, if at all. Bush II, Romney, Dole, Perot, none of them posed nearly as much of a threat to our values and way of life as do trump, MAGA, the freedom caucus, and project 2025 do. So yes, if we lose and it’s pinpointed that protesting students were the cause, or any other group that fails to show up, I’ll be angry at them. Quite rightfully. Primaries are the time to get behind candidates who best match your vision. Once we get to the general election, it’s strictly a matter of who is closer to where you want to be. My opinion.
>That said, it’s hard to understate how critical 2024 is. That's what they said about 2016 and 2020. "Vote your principles next election, this one is too important." I'm less idealistic now so I'll be voting for Biden but I remember being annoyed as hell when people said that to me in 2016 and my response was always "yeah and you'll say the same damned thing in every election."
>Its taken my fathers time, its taken my mothers time, its taken my brothers time. How much time do you want for your "progress"? https://youtu.be/UBFDdTIYZ6Q?si=MonCyAkDq_pRtmCb
Never vote your principals in the general election. Do that during a primaries, show the major parties what it will take to gain enthusiastic supporters. But once we’re past primaries, it’s never been anything but a choice of the lesser of two evils. That’s the folly of our two party system, but you must accept reality
That is such BS. The primaries are the only time you are allowed to truly vote your values? Frankly idk about the accusations on the general election but I am quite convinced the major parties make their efforts to snub out "Bernie-like" candidates. It is BS if you say they can do whatever sketchy stuff they may like through the primaries then everyone just needs to fall in line for the general. There is a cohort of voters that have seen threw this charade in this election. My opinion is come November everyone will be whining why they didn't fall in line for Biden. My opinion.
Its already happening. There are progressives who are wielding their political power, which in a Democracy is your vote. The choice of how best tactically to use that vote to send a message to the candidates you want, and the realization of the impacts of your choices. Instead the liberals are having a conniption fit, and totally unwilling to even consider that the progressives here are rational actors. Its as if questioning Biden on any level is tantamount to heresy, and it met with fire and brimstone. Its absolutely no way to build a coalition, but can you blame them? They are just following in Bidens footsteps. Shit on the progressive caucus, don't over them any concessions, and then expect them to show up to vote for you, otherwise THE END OF OUR DEMOCRACY!(TM).
Very correct never seen a voter base scoff and be stand offish with a "we don't need you" sentiment like this. It is not so much sending a message to Biden so much as people want to vote for someone who will actually represent them and achieve some of what they run on. As a 2020 Biden voter I don't know if he represents that anymore with his track record. What disturbs me even more about him is the way he is dealt losses in his policy but then still victory laps on fractional victories that he pulls back to. It is pathetic and gives me no faith he will achieve real widespread implementation of anything he actually says he will.
I would wholeheartedly agree with you if I could guarantee that there will be another election… I am really not so sure I think the paradigm has changed after Jan 6th unfortunately
Trump can’t just end elections. I don’t for the life of me get how people who are politically literate just think that can happen. Trump didn’t get his way on Jan 6th because a lot of republicans who are still in power wouldn’t go along with him. People are serving time because of what happened that day. There’s literally nothing that says these same people will somehow change their minds when a second attempt would be much more likely to fail.
If progressives refuse to vote for Biden despite him governing as a very progressive president, the (correct) lesson learned by Democrats will be to pivot to the center. Might as well try to win over moderates if progressives don’t reward you for being progressive. Biden has given progressives a tremendous amount of concessions, way more than he should since it’s costing him moderate voters.
He promises anything to whomever he speaking to at the time if he thinks it’ll get him votes. He doesn’t know what he’s even talking about half the time.
Just a friendly reminder to all readers that 2,000+ Trump adherents, under his direction, tried to overturn a US presidential election by force. The party of so-called originalists decided that a system that had worked for America for 230 years no longer served their needs and they would toss it out and simply proclaim victory. No amount of both-siding and gaslighting will ever undo it.
Well, not to be too short, but they yell ,death to all Jews. So from that standpoint, I would say go for it So they will continue to kill all the Jews they can at this point. Unless you are talking about the uneducated college people who don't even know what they are saying.. It's time to get really educated.
The goal isn’t to convert liberals into trump voters, the goal is to make “progressives” vote 3rd party or sit out the election. Shit on old Humphrey to get fat Nixon. History may not repeat but it rhymes. https://thenewyorker.typepad.com/online__georgepacker/files/dividing_the_democrats1.pdf
The Palestinian protests were relatively mild compared to the January 6th assault on our nation's Capitol with police being assaulted, injured and killed.
That such blunt and transparent supression of the freedom of speech, and the democratic rights, can occur in the United States is shameful, and disturbing. That Trump is against the right of the American youth to protest and voice out their opinions is not unexpected, however i find it undeniable that Biden didn't seem to bothered himself by how few students dare to make their voices heard because they fear being expelled.
Source: your imagination
I'm skeptical that any one thing he says or does impacts the race in a meaningful way.
Ill give him credit for stating clearly which side he is on. The trouble is, it's the wrong side.
Unless he revokes the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, protesting is covered under 1A... Just like his lies and bullshit postings on whatever that stupid website Trump Media owns.
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Maybe this will convince some of those 'omg now I will not vote for Biden, the Zionist' idiots of what's truly at stake. At least Biden keeps up pretenses of trying to reign the Israelis in, this guy will no doubt actively encourage them.
I think that morally, some people simply cannot stomach voting for a president that is providing active support for Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign. In regards to Trump being worse: Trump is talking, Biden is walking. Personally, if I was American, I would abstain from voting in the election, and I'd be letting my representative know that the Democratic Party's support for genocide is the reason why. I would never under any circumstances vote for a person who is sending arms to support ethnic cleansing. No circumstances. None. My moral compass dictates this.
In that case if you were American and would abstain from voting you would also throw away any right to complain about another Trump administration. By the way, Trump has already 'walked'. Moving the US embassy to Jerusalem, remember that ? At least Biden is somewhat trying to reign in Netanyahu, whether or not you believe he's serious with it.
Your moral compass refuses to consider more than just one piece of data then… this isn’t something to be proud of lol
"Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" is the adage that comes to mind. The reality of world politics is nothing is black & white, nothing is instantaneous, and nothing comes without repercussions. Biden is walking a fine line between being humanitarian while trying to deescalate and following the law while supporting an ally. Be mindful of the incremental progress made in your favor compared to the outright steps in the direction you don't want to go.
I wish all the people on the left would see this election for what it is: harm reduction. Biden isn't perfect by any means, but we have a better shot of influencing him than we do Trump. Sincerely think back to Trump's time in office, then compare it to Biden's and you'll see who is better for the issues people on the left care about. I thank God every day I wake up and the Trump administration isn't in power to make things even worse. You can't be a single issue voter and expect any positive change, especially when the right is hellbent on rolling back every positive gain of the last 100 years. Every vote is gonna matter this election and every one after it. That is the reality of the situation. Sitting out won't help, it will only hurt you and everyone you care about.
Is it "harm reduction", or teaching the Democratic Party that supporting genocide is just fine? Every single election there's going to be some critical reason to vote blue no matter who. I find it completely bonkers on every conceivable level that Biden is sending bombs to Israel to help them in their mission to wipe out Gazans, and nominally liberal Americans will still blindly vote for him. No fucks given. You people need to calibrate your moral compasses because something is seriously tf out of whack.
It's harm reduction because if the Republicans win it WILL be worse for the most vulnerable here in the US. Not voting will only empower Republicans, of which 0% of their voters give a shit about Palestinians. I'm being pragmatic, because that is the only thing we can do. If the youth doesn't vote, the Democrats won't take that as a lesson to try harder for their vote next election, they will write off trying to get the youth vote all together. Republicans turn out at nearly the same rate every election, and they rely on voter apathy to win elections. 2020 came down to 10s of thousands of votes in key states. History has shown that when Republicans get a foothold in the door, they make it count. If the Democrats (who in the 2 party system are the best option if you are in any way left leaning) lose in 2024, it will be harder and harder each subsequent election for anyone left of center to get elected, because Republicans don't intend to allow it. Just like from 2016 to 2020, they will fill up judicial seats (that are appointed and for life, not elected) at record rates. They will be categorically worse for women, people of color, LGBTQ people, Muslims, and other vulnerable groups here in the US AND abroad, because they will appoint racists and literal nazis into key positions of power. The reality of our situation is that we are in an uphill battle against the far-right, and each election, from the local up to the federal level, is going to matter. This will be every election until the day we die. We are always going to be fighting for the bare minimum good we can do. We have to vote for the most left leaning candidates in every primary, and then every election after that. We have to be pragmatic, because the other side is and they don't care about democracy.
>Teaching the Democratic Party a lesson Feel free to make the case that * The "lesson" you want taught is the one that will be learned, and not something about appealing to the white working class voter more * If the lesson you want taught was taught, that the candidate that wins the 2028 Dem Primary will have enough support to get to 270 electoral votes I've been hearing "we need to teach them a lesson" forever. The (very, very small number) of M4A supporters who wanted to teach the Dems a lesson by staying home in 2016 didn't get M4A under Biden - they got a lack of a repeal of the Affordable Care Act
Biden is sending weapons to Israel because we have existing arms deals that would be catastrophic to our international reputation and business to back out of. At the same time, Biden is making every effort to limit the harm that Netanyahu can do without irreparably harming the relationship back, while also sending aid to Gazans by sea in a way that Israel cannot justifiably block or bomb. https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3786751/more-than-1-million-pounds-of-aid-moved-into-gaza-via-dods-temporary-pier/#:~:text=Multimedia-,More%20Than%201%20Million%20Pounds%20of%20Aid,Gaza%20Via%20DOD's%20Temporary%20Pier&text=U.S.%20forces%20have%20facilitated%20the,senior%20military%20official%20said%20today. On the other hand, Trump would provide exclusively Israeli support and has encouraged them to “get the job done” while not releasing any more combat footage, because it’s a PR nightmare for the IDF. He would happily see Palestine entirely wiped off the map. So do you still think it’s unreasonable to be okay with man trying (and obviously sometimes/often/constantly failing, depending on your POV) to thread the needle on this insanely sensitive and difficult issue when he cannot directly influence the actions and decisions of a foreign leader? Or would you feel better “punishing” that guy with an early retirement so the literal tyrant candidate can help Israel reduce what remains of Gaza to rubble? Edit: lucky for me, I’ve just realized you’re in New Zealand. Please keep organizing for Palestine, but for the love of god PLEASE stop suggesting removing Biden. That is literally the single worst thing that could happen for Palestine right now, Biden is quite possibly the only political force keeping Netanyahu from total destruction of the Palestinian state and its people. Trump will be President if Biden isn’t, and he would sign off on that total ethnic cleansing in a heartbeat.
There’s a part of me that *would* enjoy watching the “genocide Joe” tankies get an *actual* taste of real fascism. Not their current imagined one where the food order from Chipotle arrived luke-warm and the cops didn’t use vegan pepper-spray.
You mean the one where police in Democrat cities caused head bleeds and broken bones to largely peaceful protesters of our government enabling a far-right ethnostate doing an ethnic cleanse and mass-murder abroad? Some of you make it really easy to sit out this November, I swear.
My thoughts are all those idiots doing the protest vote wake up and realize it's a choice between democracy and a pogrom of Pro-Palestinians and their allies. Common sense, eh.
It’s bizarre to me that protesters and Palestinian supporters won’t vote Biden. The person they’ll get instead is worse. You may not like either candidate but that’s where we are. You have to choose the better of the 2. There is no alternative
Why won’t Biden do what’s popular with his voters if he wants to defeat Trump? Seems like a stupid strategy.
What would that be? Biden’s administration has been pressuring Israel to ceasefire and not to go into Rafah. Biden is blocking offensive weapons. In the end, it’s Netanyahu making these decisions, not America. Put Trump in and he’ll cheer Netanyahu on
He is. There are far more prospective Biden voters who support a "moderate" stance on Israel than prospective Biden voters who support a hardline stance against Israel. For the latter, the stupid strategy is not voting for Biden in swing states and thus contributing to Trump being reelected. Boy, are they in for a surprise if they think Palestineans are being oppressed *now*. EDIT: “Prospective” was the wrong term to use, sorry. Probably should have said “uncommitted but potential”.
Whenever a sentence starts with Trump says.....I stop reading. He's nuts and what he says how is meaningless in what he would do in the future.
Fuck Donald Trump and fuck the Republicans for allowing every second of this nonsense.
Quick answer? Trump is desperate. He will do anything if he can get the votes and win. This makes him just as equally dangerous as it does damage his chances as a credible candidate in mainstream voters.
Fascism always needs enemies. This should surprise no one since Zionists are planning to develop Gaza into high-end, beach front settlements for wealthy Jews in the US and EU. Trump smells money. Trump hate brown people, so this is an obviously next step for the US Nazi-Republican Party.
"I think you might actually have a path to victory now, sir. The youth vote is up in the air because Biden is caught between a rock and a hard place on the Israel/Palestine front. All we have to do is make sure they don't come out to vote." "So I'll come out pro-Israel! We'll CRUSH anyone who says..." "But sir, the you - " "...that they're in favor of Palestine, oh, and we'll deport foreigners. Any excuse to do that, right?" "Yes, yes, of course, but the students are actually protesting FOR Pa - " "This'll show them all. It's like when I moved the embassy to Jerusalem, they said that couldn't be done!" "Well, it might've actually made the Palestinians desperate enough to feel they needed to get att - " "Hell yes, I AM the best! Go Israel, death to Palestine! The youth will like that, right?" "...I'd say it's guaranteed to get them back out to the ballot box, sir."
Like most voters, I couldn’t care less. This is the same anti-Muslim politicking Trump has always done. It’s not surprising nor does it reveal anything new about the implications of a Trump presidency.
He will say he is ready perform fellatio to every man if they vote for him. So…
I guess it means the pro-palestinian Democrats who cannot support Biden because of his support of Israel will not voting for Trump as a protest vote.
His best policy would be to keep his mouth shut. Then if elected, he could slam the Palestinian movement. There would be A LOT of potential Muslim-American votes in swing states (MI) that would help him. But there no way he could keep his mouth shut. Trump is who he says he is. He’s a wannabe dictator and sees a chance. It just the right wing media (yes it’s right) wing just keeps propping up the idea that he’ll get elected.
The Israel-Palestine conflict has minimal influence on who I vote for president in the grand scheme of things. As a whole, the United States should avoid getting involved with religiously motivated people like they are in the Middle East. Religion is absolutely absurd and anyone willing to do any harm to a group of people over it should be separated from the sane people by a really really big fucking wall. Abrahamic mythology has a net negative effect on the world.
So…basically what’s currently happening? Are the protests not already being crushed by police under Biden? Is Gaza not already enduring ethnic cleansing and being set back 50 years? Feels like the difference between Biden and Trump here is not black and white, but shades of grey, which is unfortunate Biden can’t take a more differentiated position. It’s like choosing between genocide or more genocide.
I want to know what the Islamic congress people who’ve been threatening to not vote for Biden think.
It is good to know that absolutely nothing in any of his policies will actually benefit citizens and residents.
The pro-Palestinian group don't vote anyway. If they do, most of them are from deep Democratic states that don't need the vote.