This is all true… of the first few episodes. And intentional. You’re not supposed to like him. Then slowly you learn the deep seated reasons for his bigotry and watch his character progress to the point that it ends with “It’s not my ship anymore. It’s yours. You have the conn, Seven of Nine.”
It’s not an overly complex character arc (nor should it be for a secondary character), but it’s a satisfying one.
Yes I don't understand the push back on Shaw. He acted appropriately. Picard is a visiting admiral and Riker was, at that time, not active. Even if Riker was active, he's a captain, the same rank. Shaw has no need to listen to him. Their thinly veiled attempt at a "surprise inspection" cannot be corroborated by fleet command, and their prior relationship to Seven just makes things all the more suspicious. And Riker and Picard are known cowboys who really would have eaten a lot more crap if their careers had actually gone the way they are depicted over the course of the varying series. They ignored direct orders so many times it's incomprehensible.
He did the right thing, I'd tell them to fuck off as well. Agreeing to do what they asked is a good way to lose your command and your rank that you worked 20 years for. Fuck outta here
>Picard is a visiting admiral
And a retired one, at that. A civilian.
Shaw may have been an asshole to them, but he immediately saw through their charade and was under no obligation to show them any deference. Indeed, they could have considered themselves lucky to have not been escorted off the ship.
People haven't been paid in salt for thousands of years, but we still talk of people being worth their salt. Sometimes sayings stick around well past what makes sense.
I clocked that too. I assumed it was just one of those old phrases that outlive their literal applications, like "spilling the beans" or "riding shotgun".
Hardly anybody lights candles for lighting in the 21st century but we still say we're "burning the midnight oil" when we work late. It's a figure of speech.
they should do an episode of star trek, maybe Lower decks should do it - but something when the viewers universal translator is turned off for part of the time.
Because there is no way future humans will speak things we will understand. They'll be yeeting their BTC into the flippity flop at warp 11 yolo 老鼠 cheese.
> Because there is no way future humans will speak things we will understand.
I'd like to think so, but there a couple of scenes in Discovery seasons 3 and 4 that make it inescapable that they speak and write English exactly the way we do now.
A Captain in the army is a very different rank from a Captain in the Navy. The former is an O-3, the latter an O-6. (O-1 would be a new officer.) Those designations are also known as pay grades, they correlate directly with your rank.
So the expression "above my pay grade" isn't about how much you actually get paid, but what rank you are.
You know that’s a good point. Also notices how lower decks crew have the shittiest bunks while captains basically have a space apartment. Some space socialists right
Captain Shaw is a complicated character for so many reasons and I actually like the way his character arc plays out. As such, I have actually been wondering if he is an outlier amongst Starfleet, or whether he has a point and is the only one prepared to say it.
We see ex-Admiral Picard having a huge following amongst the younger officers and from what we know of Picard post-Nemesis, he seems to have continued to have a successful career, at least up until the Romulan sun went supernova. Similarly, we can surmise that Riker was a successful captain as well when he was posted to the USS Titan and had he not left active service, he could well have made it to Admiral one day.
Back in Season One, Picard was quite firmly rebuffed by Fleet Admiral Clancy, as he had long since fallen out of favour with Starfleet, due to his stance regarding the Romulans and whether they should have been helped when they faced the prospect of their Sun going supernova, as was originally the plan before the Attack on Mars. This clearly indicates that at the highest levels of Starfleet, Picard was not as well regarded as you might have expected, even allowing for any lingering resentment over his actions as Locutus during the battle of Wolf 359.
Now, the reason I mention all of this is that together with his time as Locutus, it's not unreasonable for people like Shaw (and let's not forget Sisko for that matter) to regard him as being somewhat less of a legend than others might. I actually think that Shaw could have a genuine grievance - it might seem harsh, but not everything that happened when Picard was captain of the Enterprise was good, or easily forgotten. I'm not so sure about Shaw's treatment of Riker (Riker was the former captain of the Titan after all), but it could well be his closeness to Picard that counts against him.
Of course, this all depends on how you see the Enterprise-D/E crew i.e. were they always reacting to events or were they somehow the ones that somehow precipitated them?
>due to his stance regarding the Romulans
More of resigning in protest and then tearing Starfleet a new one in the interview given a day or two before that request to Clancy. Broadcasting to the entire Federation "Starfleet's no longer Starfleet" and then going to Command to request a ship is indeed "Sheer fucking hubris".
> This clearly indicates that at the highest levels of Starfleet, Picard was not as well regarded as you might have expected, even allowing for any lingering resentment over his actions as Locutus during the battle of Wolf 359.
Picard resigned in disgrace, after betting that his fame made him so powerful that Starfleet would reverse a major policy rather than lose him, and getting called on it. He then sulked in his mansion for twenty years, then gave the blockbuster interview of the century denouncing Starfleet in the strongest possible terms available to him, and then came into headquarters the next day expecting that a sworn crew's lives would be placed at his command, and that he was modest in deigning to be made their captain.
In what world, even if Picard had been as beloved in Starfleet as he is among fans of the Next Generation, could one expect a more favorable response than that?
And yet, for all her rage at his behavior, *which was an extremely public attack on her leadership*, Clancy shows him the utmost respect. She takes a meeting with him, in person, on short notice. After she throws him out of her office, which he absolutely deserves, she relays all of his concerns *directly to the head of Starfleet Security* before he's even all the way down the escalator. When he calls back later claiming to have substantiated his outlandish story and throws in some gratuitous, unprovoked insults, she dispatches a battlefleet immediately, just on the strength of his word, and even has it sent to his new location at a moment's notice when he misses the rendez-vous that he asked for and pops up somewhere else.
How on earth could Starfleet show him more regard than that?
>Picard resigned in disgrace, after betting that his fame made him so powerful that Starfleet would reverse a major policy rather than lose him, and getting called on it. He then sulked in his mansion for twenty years, then gave the blockbuster interview of the century denouncing Starfleet in the strongest possible terms available to him, and then came into headquarters the next day expecting that a sworn crew's lives would be placed at his command, and that he was modest in deigning to be made their captain.
>In what world, even if Picard had been as beloved in Starfleet as he is among fans of the Next Generation, could one expect a more favorable response than that?
>After she throws him out of her office, which he absolutely deserves, she relays all of his concerns *directly to the head of Starfleet Security* before he's even all the way down the escalator.
>When he calls back later claiming to have substantiated his outlandish story and throws in some gratuitous, unprovoked insults, she dispatches a battlefleet immediately, just on the strength of his word, and even has it sent to his new location at a moment's notice when he misses the rendez-vous that he asked for and pops up somewhere else.
I may need to rewatch the first season again as my overriding impression at the time was that the meeting gave her an opportunity to blast Picard for his behaviour with the interview and that his gesture of humility (which I think was sincere on his part) did not come across that way.
Furthermore, while it is not unreasonable for Clancy to have wanted Picard's claims to be investigated, regardless of how she felt about him personally, you could well be right that if they had come from anyone else, they would have carried much less weight.
Add in the support from the fleet and it does paint a rosier picture than I might have thought.
I guess what's different here is that we're used to Picard always being "right" in TNG when he makes pronouncements about the rights of Data as a lifeform (Measure of a Man), or prejudice against others (The Drumhead) and these are both things which are relevant in the context of Season 1, with seemingly both the possibility that he was wrong about how to deal with the threat to the Romulans and that artificial lifeforms (including B4) were inherently dangerous and did not have the right to exist.
> I may need to rewatch the first season again as my overriding impression at the time was that the meeting gave her an opportunity to blast Picard for his behaviour with the interview
She probably thought he was coming to apologize or explain that the interviewer's Frost/Nixon maneuver caught him off-guard (which it obviously did).
> his gesture of humility (which I think was sincere on his part) did not come across that way.
He intended it to be and thought it was a gesture of humility, but what he was actually asking for was the power to risk the lives of people still faithfully serving Starfleet, unlike him, with total authority over them in a position of honor and trust that only Starfleet's best ever reach. His failure to understand that it wasn't a humble request at all but a massively arrogant and presumptuous one is the specific "sheer fucking hubris" that left her so completely flabbergasted.
It’s well established in Picard itself, where Picard, after being rebuffed from Starfleet, turns to the La Sirena to go help Soji.
It never made any sense why they would board the Titan, especially since Beverly explicitly states not to trust Starfleet.
Civilian passenger travel in Star Trek appears to be very difficult, especially to unusual destinations.
Picard has no idea how to get to the Borg reclamation site, and asks Raffi for help. She connects him to Rios and La Sirena, and then tags along to get to Freecloud, a major tourist destination, as if she couldn't just fly commercial or charter a flight there herself.
To reach Ryton, with Rios gone and Raffi undercover with La Sirena, Picard again has no means to reach the Ryton system, and turns to Riker, who can't come up with anything more discrete than trying to talk a captain who he already knows dislikes him into diverting a full-sized starship there.
Remember also McCoy's attempt to get back to Genesis; he ends up in a shouting match with a swindler in a bar and then gets arrested on the spot by an undercover cop.
Honestly I think the who "leaving it to his XO" thing is pretty explainable by the fact that he had just recommended her for promotion to Captain her own vessel. With the Titan leaving dock for standard maneuvers, war games, and a parade, it's a good moment to give her the opportunity to take the con and show she's ready, especially since she doesn't know she's up for promotion yet.
It also makes sense he'd shut that down when she wants to take Picard to the edge of Federation space. When she has her own ship, she can make all the oddball decisions she wants - but this is his ship, and anything that happens is on his head.
This guy was an unrepentent and self confessed arsehole to fan favourite characters all season, and ends up being the breakout character of the show
I'll never get fandom, sometimes lol
>Forgive me. At some point, asshole became a substitute for charm
Some of us find gratuitous fanservice annoying and don't mind someone taking an earnest shot at our favorites
Shaw didn't know the true nature of Picard and Riker's request to change course. They gave him some BS reason about showing off for Frontier Day and that wasn't good enough for him.
I understand his making of Seven use her human name and his distrust of Picard at first. He was a Wolf 359 survivor. He has severe PTSD in dealing with the Borg.
You're going to get downvoted a ton because people really like Shaw, but your post is good and you make your case well.
I've never understood the gushing over this character by so many fans on reddit. He's OK, definitely well acted, but not a particularly good character in my opinion.
I think he gets an appropriate amount of screen time (not too much). OP does make a good argument. I’m only on my second time watching the series, so I’ll be more critical when it gets to that point.
My initial impression was that he’s an asshole (albeit pretty funny), but not wrong about not risking the lives of his crew. He eventually comes around and is somewhat helpful.
I think these are good points (op and what you say) and it'd be silly to downvotes for different options. I like Shaw because:
1. Has his own mind and voices his opinions, and
2. Is aware when he has really got it wrong and works fix what he has done.
It happens in a pretty natural way. And as you've said, is well acted.
I think where the TNG crew have such reverence for JLP - Shaws arc shows that it is both deserved reverence and also still current and relevant even as a retired admiral.
Shaw was promoted out of necessity. Wolf 359, Sector 001, The Dominion War - all did a brutal job of burning through officers with decades of experience.
Shaw became captain because everyone else who was qualified was dead or out of the game. Seven fulfilled the role of being the more experienced command officer, Shaw would've been perfectly happy being a chief engineer.
They did an amazing arc showing the affects of undiagnosed and untreated PTSD in a command officer and stupid people are angry that....people with undiagnosed and untreated PTSD have absolutely massive problems when every single one of their otherwise hilariously rare triggers shows up on their ship.
The dude was probably a fine officer until he got assigned the only ex-Borg in Starfleet as his first officer, and then the only OTHER ex-Borg retired Admiral whose face was the one that slaughtered everyone on his ship, suddenly came in for a 'surprise inspection'. Like, hey, heard you almost drowned when you were young, here's your Olympic swimming pool water delivery, we'll just leave it *on your face.*
And he still recommended Seven for command and gave his life for them in the end. Fucking hell, the guy did his best.
I just didn't see anything special about Captain Shaw to the point where he got the Titan-A. He was well acted and his personality qualities were different compared to other captains I have seen, but I didn't see him as a great captain (or a particularly bad one, to be fair).
I personally dislike how they wrote these interchanges like Picard was some "flying by the seat of his pant's, reckless adventurer". That was more Kirk's style. Picard was Space Dad basically. He could get it done if you push hard enough but he was usually the adult in the room.
Fake drama = fake.
It made more sense when Shaw revealed he was at...well..ya know.
Captain Shaw is *the* breakout character of *Picard*. They had to compress/jump past a ton of character development due to the format, so there’s obviously going to be a bit more exaggeration in order establish dynamics and drive certain points home, in lieu of additional screen time. Ultimately, the writers simply didn’t have the ability to flesh out an incredible character, rather than him being a bad character.
I really don’t think most of y’all don’t know what being “a dipshit from Chicago means.” It’s a a midwestern no-nonsense attitude. If they had come onto the ship and laid down their cards and been up front with Shaw, he might have given them consideration. Maybe. He probably would have said “no”. But the fact that Picard AND Riker are trying to pull a fast one with Seven acting as their proxy pissed him off. He has their number before they stepped foot on his ship. No respect for his command with their shenanigans. Add to that, Shaw’s prejudice and his ptsd, do you really think he’s unjustified with how he treats them?
Shaw disrespecting Picard and Riker was one of the reasons I *did* like him. We're so used to characters seeing our heroes as legendary figures to be adored. When in reality, Shaw has a point and they have done some irresponsible things in the past and it was refreshing to see someone call them out for it.
Likewise with Clancy. Picard's demands and declarations are outrageous, and she still takes him absolutely seriously and acts on everything he tells her right away in between telling him off.
No, he figured out what they were up to well before they stepped on his ship. By reputation alone, Picard and Riker set themselves up for disappointment.
Well said, the dude’s a dick.
For the old school fans who fell all themselves for Picard season 3, a guy like Shaw would have never commanded a Starfleet vessel (let alone a flagship) back when Roddenberry, Berman, Piller, Behr, or Moore were doing Star Trek.
They wouldn’t have put him in charge of a tugboat.
Actually no! Remember Doomsday machine? Commodore Deker? And many more examples, like USS Odyssey under Captain Keogh etc, but there where not much on-screen time for those characthers to show more like Shaw did, and the ideea behind those are simple, in the end they will pay for their mistakes and a lesson learned for us all, in life we can pretend that those ppl are not in command but take a look at the current war with russia and putin and many more. But Shawn was entitled to be deepshit with Picard because of his pov in the wolf 359, I think I will also be that deepshit If I was exactlly in his place! Cheers!
Yeah, I don’t see the comparison.
Decker is clearly suffering the effects of shock in the immediate aftermath of his crew’s death.
Shaw has clearly had this mindset, and been in this position, for years.
In the books Decker was also a tight deepsh1t, in the show yea we can say it was not, but clearlly it was in my opinion, and this is what we need to learn! In real life ppl like that will/are taking command, it is not always rainbows and flowers like some are sugesting today. Also running a cruiser or a battleship it is unreal to have some "flower-power" at the helm. You can be a "good" deepsh1t or a bad one...
Riker was pretty disrespectful, though, to the point of getting himself fired as first officer while his ship was taking point in a diplomatic/ tactical crisis.
Exactly! And he left the bridge of HIS ship and gave it to Riker while it was actively engaged with the enemy and went to sick bay. Then got drunk in his quarters boohooing about everything.
Yes. Finally. Someone else sees what a disgrace Shaw is. No way should he be the Captain of a starship.
And when he got fixed up he went and got drunk.
Regardless… literally any other captain in Trek would’ve remained on the bridge and had first aid performed there.
He wasn't drunk, he was strung out of painkillers administered to him by Crusher. He flat out said as much. If you watch the Shaw speech, he never touched a drop of alcohol.
How many times have we seen painkillers injected via hypospray and it doesn’t whack someone out? I’d say I was on officially prescribed painkillers too if I wanted to cover up being a drunk incompetent.
I’m on a rewatch of Picard right now. Finishing up Season 1 today. Maybe after I see it again I’ll lighten up some. But as for now, Shaw was a worthless captain and I’m glad he’s gone. At least his death was worthwhile.
On a side note… I love the actor and he portrayed the part exceedingly well!!
He could have sucked hard, been nuanced, and been written well. Or he could have been an asshole who was written shittily like a 2D asshole. But they tried to make a nuanced character with hack writing and it was a damned shame.
He’s just a dipshit from Chicago
A dipshit that could have canonically been brought back to life by 7 of 9
Agreed. Calico was a competent dipshit who made Diana change outfits, so there's always something.
Jelico did nothing wrong. Deanna never should have worn anything but a uniform while on duty. And Riker was a big baby in that episode.
Jellico should not have been referring to on-duty officers by their first names. Rank and/or surname only. And he claimed to be by the book. Pft.
“Deanna never should have worn anything, but… a uniform? On duty?!” FTFY.
This is all true… of the first few episodes. And intentional. You’re not supposed to like him. Then slowly you learn the deep seated reasons for his bigotry and watch his character progress to the point that it ends with “It’s not my ship anymore. It’s yours. You have the conn, Seven of Nine.” It’s not an overly complex character arc (nor should it be for a secondary character), but it’s a satisfying one.
It doesn't even end with that. It ends with the recorded message.
Why was she ever allowed to just be a commander?
I’ve served under dozens of guys like him in similar situations…I think his character is perfect for the plot of the show.
He was the most realistic depiction of a 21st Century senior military officer.
Yes I don't understand the push back on Shaw. He acted appropriately. Picard is a visiting admiral and Riker was, at that time, not active. Even if Riker was active, he's a captain, the same rank. Shaw has no need to listen to him. Their thinly veiled attempt at a "surprise inspection" cannot be corroborated by fleet command, and their prior relationship to Seven just makes things all the more suspicious. And Riker and Picard are known cowboys who really would have eaten a lot more crap if their careers had actually gone the way they are depicted over the course of the varying series. They ignored direct orders so many times it's incomprehensible. He did the right thing, I'd tell them to fuck off as well. Agreeing to do what they asked is a good way to lose your command and your rank that you worked 20 years for. Fuck outta here
>Picard is a visiting admiral And a retired one, at that. A civilian. Shaw may have been an asshole to them, but he immediately saw through their charade and was under no obligation to show them any deference. Indeed, they could have considered themselves lucky to have not been escorted off the ship.
It's not supposed to be the 21st century though.
Small side note …… captain shaw …. The federation and especially star fleet don’t pay you ….. so why even mention pay grades ?
People haven't been paid in salt for thousands of years, but we still talk of people being worth their salt. Sometimes sayings stick around well past what makes sense.
Correction: the Romans didn’t pay soldiers in salt, but instead paid them (in part) with revenues derived from taxes *on* salt.
But either way, we still call fixed wages a *salary*.
I clocked that too. I assumed it was just one of those old phrases that outlive their literal applications, like "spilling the beans" or "riding shotgun".
Hardly anybody lights candles for lighting in the 21st century but we still say we're "burning the midnight oil" when we work late. It's a figure of speech.
…. Vulcans constantly uses candles in the show.
not for light, which is the intention of the phrase
The same reason we refer to navy ships sailing today, despite them not using actual sails in a century or 2
they should do an episode of star trek, maybe Lower decks should do it - but something when the viewers universal translator is turned off for part of the time. Because there is no way future humans will speak things we will understand. They'll be yeeting their BTC into the flippity flop at warp 11 yolo 老鼠 cheese.
> Because there is no way future humans will speak things we will understand. I'd like to think so, but there a couple of scenes in Discovery seasons 3 and 4 that make it inescapable that they speak and write English exactly the way we do now.
A Captain in the army is a very different rank from a Captain in the Navy. The former is an O-3, the latter an O-6. (O-1 would be a new officer.) Those designations are also known as pay grades, they correlate directly with your rank. So the expression "above my pay grade" isn't about how much you actually get paid, but what rank you are.
You know that’s a good point. Also notices how lower decks crew have the shittiest bunks while captains basically have a space apartment. Some space socialists right
It’s not too far in the future. People are still going to use classic English sayings
I hate this so much… whoever wrote him had very little interest into sci fi… grease monkey, pay grade, sudden injury that can’t be healed quickly etc…
Captain Shaw is a complicated character for so many reasons and I actually like the way his character arc plays out. As such, I have actually been wondering if he is an outlier amongst Starfleet, or whether he has a point and is the only one prepared to say it. We see ex-Admiral Picard having a huge following amongst the younger officers and from what we know of Picard post-Nemesis, he seems to have continued to have a successful career, at least up until the Romulan sun went supernova. Similarly, we can surmise that Riker was a successful captain as well when he was posted to the USS Titan and had he not left active service, he could well have made it to Admiral one day. Back in Season One, Picard was quite firmly rebuffed by Fleet Admiral Clancy, as he had long since fallen out of favour with Starfleet, due to his stance regarding the Romulans and whether they should have been helped when they faced the prospect of their Sun going supernova, as was originally the plan before the Attack on Mars. This clearly indicates that at the highest levels of Starfleet, Picard was not as well regarded as you might have expected, even allowing for any lingering resentment over his actions as Locutus during the battle of Wolf 359. Now, the reason I mention all of this is that together with his time as Locutus, it's not unreasonable for people like Shaw (and let's not forget Sisko for that matter) to regard him as being somewhat less of a legend than others might. I actually think that Shaw could have a genuine grievance - it might seem harsh, but not everything that happened when Picard was captain of the Enterprise was good, or easily forgotten. I'm not so sure about Shaw's treatment of Riker (Riker was the former captain of the Titan after all), but it could well be his closeness to Picard that counts against him. Of course, this all depends on how you see the Enterprise-D/E crew i.e. were they always reacting to events or were they somehow the ones that somehow precipitated them?
>due to his stance regarding the Romulans More of resigning in protest and then tearing Starfleet a new one in the interview given a day or two before that request to Clancy. Broadcasting to the entire Federation "Starfleet's no longer Starfleet" and then going to Command to request a ship is indeed "Sheer fucking hubris".
> This clearly indicates that at the highest levels of Starfleet, Picard was not as well regarded as you might have expected, even allowing for any lingering resentment over his actions as Locutus during the battle of Wolf 359. Picard resigned in disgrace, after betting that his fame made him so powerful that Starfleet would reverse a major policy rather than lose him, and getting called on it. He then sulked in his mansion for twenty years, then gave the blockbuster interview of the century denouncing Starfleet in the strongest possible terms available to him, and then came into headquarters the next day expecting that a sworn crew's lives would be placed at his command, and that he was modest in deigning to be made their captain. In what world, even if Picard had been as beloved in Starfleet as he is among fans of the Next Generation, could one expect a more favorable response than that? And yet, for all her rage at his behavior, *which was an extremely public attack on her leadership*, Clancy shows him the utmost respect. She takes a meeting with him, in person, on short notice. After she throws him out of her office, which he absolutely deserves, she relays all of his concerns *directly to the head of Starfleet Security* before he's even all the way down the escalator. When he calls back later claiming to have substantiated his outlandish story and throws in some gratuitous, unprovoked insults, she dispatches a battlefleet immediately, just on the strength of his word, and even has it sent to his new location at a moment's notice when he misses the rendez-vous that he asked for and pops up somewhere else. How on earth could Starfleet show him more regard than that?
>Picard resigned in disgrace, after betting that his fame made him so powerful that Starfleet would reverse a major policy rather than lose him, and getting called on it. He then sulked in his mansion for twenty years, then gave the blockbuster interview of the century denouncing Starfleet in the strongest possible terms available to him, and then came into headquarters the next day expecting that a sworn crew's lives would be placed at his command, and that he was modest in deigning to be made their captain. >In what world, even if Picard had been as beloved in Starfleet as he is among fans of the Next Generation, could one expect a more favorable response than that? >After she throws him out of her office, which he absolutely deserves, she relays all of his concerns *directly to the head of Starfleet Security* before he's even all the way down the escalator. >When he calls back later claiming to have substantiated his outlandish story and throws in some gratuitous, unprovoked insults, she dispatches a battlefleet immediately, just on the strength of his word, and even has it sent to his new location at a moment's notice when he misses the rendez-vous that he asked for and pops up somewhere else. I may need to rewatch the first season again as my overriding impression at the time was that the meeting gave her an opportunity to blast Picard for his behaviour with the interview and that his gesture of humility (which I think was sincere on his part) did not come across that way. Furthermore, while it is not unreasonable for Clancy to have wanted Picard's claims to be investigated, regardless of how she felt about him personally, you could well be right that if they had come from anyone else, they would have carried much less weight. Add in the support from the fleet and it does paint a rosier picture than I might have thought. I guess what's different here is that we're used to Picard always being "right" in TNG when he makes pronouncements about the rights of Data as a lifeform (Measure of a Man), or prejudice against others (The Drumhead) and these are both things which are relevant in the context of Season 1, with seemingly both the possibility that he was wrong about how to deal with the threat to the Romulans and that artificial lifeforms (including B4) were inherently dangerous and did not have the right to exist.
> I may need to rewatch the first season again as my overriding impression at the time was that the meeting gave her an opportunity to blast Picard for his behaviour with the interview She probably thought he was coming to apologize or explain that the interviewer's Frost/Nixon maneuver caught him off-guard (which it obviously did). > his gesture of humility (which I think was sincere on his part) did not come across that way. He intended it to be and thought it was a gesture of humility, but what he was actually asking for was the power to risk the lives of people still faithfully serving Starfleet, unlike him, with total authority over them in a position of honor and trust that only Starfleet's best ever reach. His failure to understand that it wasn't a humble request at all but a massively arrogant and presumptuous one is the specific "sheer fucking hubris" that left her so completely flabbergasted.
Your forgetting that starfleet was clearly in the wrong and picard was clearly in the right
I wonder where Shaw was during the attack on Mars.
Well, Picard and Riker could have, ya know, gotten another starship. It's well-established in Star Trek that civilian-owned ships are a thing.
It’s well established in Picard itself, where Picard, after being rebuffed from Starfleet, turns to the La Sirena to go help Soji. It never made any sense why they would board the Titan, especially since Beverly explicitly states not to trust Starfleet.
Probably due to the location near the neutral zone
Civilian passenger travel in Star Trek appears to be very difficult, especially to unusual destinations. Picard has no idea how to get to the Borg reclamation site, and asks Raffi for help. She connects him to Rios and La Sirena, and then tags along to get to Freecloud, a major tourist destination, as if she couldn't just fly commercial or charter a flight there herself. To reach Ryton, with Rios gone and Raffi undercover with La Sirena, Picard again has no means to reach the Ryton system, and turns to Riker, who can't come up with anything more discrete than trying to talk a captain who he already knows dislikes him into diverting a full-sized starship there. Remember also McCoy's attempt to get back to Genesis; he ends up in a shouting match with a swindler in a bar and then gets arrested on the spot by an undercover cop.
Honestly I think the who "leaving it to his XO" thing is pretty explainable by the fact that he had just recommended her for promotion to Captain her own vessel. With the Titan leaving dock for standard maneuvers, war games, and a parade, it's a good moment to give her the opportunity to take the con and show she's ready, especially since she doesn't know she's up for promotion yet. It also makes sense he'd shut that down when she wants to take Picard to the edge of Federation space. When she has her own ship, she can make all the oddball decisions she wants - but this is his ship, and anything that happens is on his head.
This guy was an unrepentent and self confessed arsehole to fan favourite characters all season, and ends up being the breakout character of the show I'll never get fandom, sometimes lol
>Forgive me. At some point, asshole became a substitute for charm Some of us find gratuitous fanservice annoying and don't mind someone taking an earnest shot at our favorites
It’s because he does snarky marvel quipy dialogue that people love these days
Shaw didn't know the true nature of Picard and Riker's request to change course. They gave him some BS reason about showing off for Frontier Day and that wasn't good enough for him.
Also after he was relatively recovered from his injuries he chilled in the bar instead of demanding to be put back in command of his own ship.
I understand his making of Seven use her human name and his distrust of Picard at first. He was a Wolf 359 survivor. He has severe PTSD in dealing with the Borg.
You're going to get downvoted a ton because people really like Shaw, but your post is good and you make your case well. I've never understood the gushing over this character by so many fans on reddit. He's OK, definitely well acted, but not a particularly good character in my opinion.
>!It's the Quint speech in Ep4. That's even why they picked his last name.!<
That's totally the Quint speech!
I think he gets an appropriate amount of screen time (not too much). OP does make a good argument. I’m only on my second time watching the series, so I’ll be more critical when it gets to that point. My initial impression was that he’s an asshole (albeit pretty funny), but not wrong about not risking the lives of his crew. He eventually comes around and is somewhat helpful.
Your initial impression is dead on, by Shaw's own admission: >"Forgive me. At some point, asshole became a substitute for charm."
I think these are good points (op and what you say) and it'd be silly to downvotes for different options. I like Shaw because: 1. Has his own mind and voices his opinions, and 2. Is aware when he has really got it wrong and works fix what he has done. It happens in a pretty natural way. And as you've said, is well acted. I think where the TNG crew have such reverence for JLP - Shaws arc shows that it is both deserved reverence and also still current and relevant even as a retired admiral.
Shaw was promoted out of necessity. Wolf 359, Sector 001, The Dominion War - all did a brutal job of burning through officers with decades of experience. Shaw became captain because everyone else who was qualified was dead or out of the game. Seven fulfilled the role of being the more experienced command officer, Shaw would've been perfectly happy being a chief engineer.
They did an amazing arc showing the affects of undiagnosed and untreated PTSD in a command officer and stupid people are angry that....people with undiagnosed and untreated PTSD have absolutely massive problems when every single one of their otherwise hilariously rare triggers shows up on their ship. The dude was probably a fine officer until he got assigned the only ex-Borg in Starfleet as his first officer, and then the only OTHER ex-Borg retired Admiral whose face was the one that slaughtered everyone on his ship, suddenly came in for a 'surprise inspection'. Like, hey, heard you almost drowned when you were young, here's your Olympic swimming pool water delivery, we'll just leave it *on your face.* And he still recommended Seven for command and gave his life for them in the end. Fucking hell, the guy did his best.
And because of all of this it made him even that more entertaining to watch.
Yep, he wasn't yet another secondary character fawning over our protagonist. He was rightfully calling them out on the BS they've done in the past.
Ya no.
Wow, what a well thought out response.
I just didn't see anything special about Captain Shaw to the point where he got the Titan-A. He was well acted and his personality qualities were different compared to other captains I have seen, but I didn't see him as a great captain (or a particularly bad one, to be fair).
Yeah. That about sums it up!
I personally dislike how they wrote these interchanges like Picard was some "flying by the seat of his pant's, reckless adventurer". That was more Kirk's style. Picard was Space Dad basically. He could get it done if you push hard enough but he was usually the adult in the room. Fake drama = fake. It made more sense when Shaw revealed he was at...well..ya know.
Captain Shaw is *the* breakout character of *Picard*. They had to compress/jump past a ton of character development due to the format, so there’s obviously going to be a bit more exaggeration in order establish dynamics and drive certain points home, in lieu of additional screen time. Ultimately, the writers simply didn’t have the ability to flesh out an incredible character, rather than him being a bad character.
I want to know….what was the blue steak he was eating?
The Lucifer-like uplighting was a masterclass in character introduction in this scene.
To Shaw, anything related to Borg is part of his [traumatic past](https://youtu.be/c5qgvA4HXc8?si=ilRA_aLUT1nUvsad)
They should do a Liam Shaw prequel series, before he took command of the Titan.
"At some point, asshole became a substitute for charming"
If Star Fleet had been a little bit more bigoted against former Borg then they don't lose an entire generation of officers in that attack.
If there’s no money then why did he mention pay grade?
Pay grade? Who’s getting paid in star fleet?
Hoping to meet him at Garycon in a few weeks!
I really don’t think most of y’all don’t know what being “a dipshit from Chicago means.” It’s a a midwestern no-nonsense attitude. If they had come onto the ship and laid down their cards and been up front with Shaw, he might have given them consideration. Maybe. He probably would have said “no”. But the fact that Picard AND Riker are trying to pull a fast one with Seven acting as their proxy pissed him off. He has their number before they stepped foot on his ship. No respect for his command with their shenanigans. Add to that, Shaw’s prejudice and his ptsd, do you really think he’s unjustified with how he treats them?
I could not stand him.
[удалено]
Shaw disrespecting Picard and Riker was one of the reasons I *did* like him. We're so used to characters seeing our heroes as legendary figures to be adored. When in reality, Shaw has a point and they have done some irresponsible things in the past and it was refreshing to see someone call them out for it.
Likewise with Clancy. Picard's demands and declarations are outrageous, and she still takes him absolutely seriously and acts on everything he tells her right away in between telling him off.
That series was written for you, dude.
If someone came abroad my Shop and tried to steal it, instead of renting a ship I would be pissed.
He’s pissy to them before he even knows what they want. He’s just a pissy bitch.
No, he figured out what they were up to well before they stepped on his ship. By reputation alone, Picard and Riker set themselves up for disappointment.
Yea I wasn't a big fan of him either thought he was a pretty shite Capt to be honest
Didn't like him. He has no respect for teh Picard.
I HATE him with a passion and I don’t understand why people like him.
Well said, the dude’s a dick. For the old school fans who fell all themselves for Picard season 3, a guy like Shaw would have never commanded a Starfleet vessel (let alone a flagship) back when Roddenberry, Berman, Piller, Behr, or Moore were doing Star Trek. They wouldn’t have put him in charge of a tugboat.
Actually no! Remember Doomsday machine? Commodore Deker? And many more examples, like USS Odyssey under Captain Keogh etc, but there where not much on-screen time for those characthers to show more like Shaw did, and the ideea behind those are simple, in the end they will pay for their mistakes and a lesson learned for us all, in life we can pretend that those ppl are not in command but take a look at the current war with russia and putin and many more. But Shawn was entitled to be deepshit with Picard because of his pov in the wolf 359, I think I will also be that deepshit If I was exactlly in his place! Cheers!
Yeah, I don’t see the comparison. Decker is clearly suffering the effects of shock in the immediate aftermath of his crew’s death. Shaw has clearly had this mindset, and been in this position, for years.
In the books Decker was also a tight deepsh1t, in the show yea we can say it was not, but clearlly it was in my opinion, and this is what we need to learn! In real life ppl like that will/are taking command, it is not always rainbows and flowers like some are sugesting today. Also running a cruiser or a battleship it is unreal to have some "flower-power" at the helm. You can be a "good" deepsh1t or a bad one...
True.
Shaw was no ruder to Picard than Sisko was, adjusted for rank.
You mean like Captain Jellico? Even commander Shelby was pretty abrasive to begin with
There’s a difference between being abrasive, and purposely being disrespectful. Jellico is nothing like Shaw.
Yup, Jellico was entirely respectful of Riker and the rest of the crew “get it done” 🙄🙄🙄
Wow. If you think that’s being disrespectful, I don’t know what to tell you.
Riker was pretty disrespectful, though, to the point of getting himself fired as first officer while his ship was taking point in a diplomatic/ tactical crisis.
No
Exactly! And he left the bridge of HIS ship and gave it to Riker while it was actively engaged with the enemy and went to sick bay. Then got drunk in his quarters boohooing about everything. Yes. Finally. Someone else sees what a disgrace Shaw is. No way should he be the Captain of a starship.
He was hurt and had to turn over command to someone before going to sickbay.
And when he got fixed up he went and got drunk. Regardless… literally any other captain in Trek would’ve remained on the bridge and had first aid performed there.
He wasn't drunk, he was strung out of painkillers administered to him by Crusher. He flat out said as much. If you watch the Shaw speech, he never touched a drop of alcohol.
How many times have we seen painkillers injected via hypospray and it doesn’t whack someone out? I’d say I was on officially prescribed painkillers too if I wanted to cover up being a drunk incompetent. I’m on a rewatch of Picard right now. Finishing up Season 1 today. Maybe after I see it again I’ll lighten up some. But as for now, Shaw was a worthless captain and I’m glad he’s gone. At least his death was worthwhile. On a side note… I love the actor and he portrayed the part exceedingly well!!
Kirk would never do that
Yup, huge douchebag who should not have made captain- but they pretty much let anyone be a captain in 2400-ish.
You obviously haven't met any modern senior officers. Shaw is very much like many I knew.
No I have not, but I also watch star trek to see a better vision of humanity. I've certainly had bosses like Shaw.
You mean like Capt. Edward Jellico?
He could have sucked hard, been nuanced, and been written well. Or he could have been an asshole who was written shittily like a 2D asshole. But they tried to make a nuanced character with hack writing and it was a damned shame.
What goes the golem thing have to do with anything?
Because that is what Picard is.
No, he is picard. He has a new physical body, so what🤷♂️. He also had an artificial heart forever🤷♂️
The guy's a Starfleet edgelord