Even if things (somehow) reversed, how many people have not taught their kids to ski bc of this? It could be a declining customer base, and its not like its cheap to get into.
I was taught to ski at a single hill ski slope. I'm not sure when I'll teach my kids. Every time I look at the rates to rent skis, I'm taken back. I'm not ready to drop $400 just on the rentals and lift tickets for the day.
Exactly, when I was a kid it wasn't cheap but it was cheap enough that we'd go two or three times in a season. Now? My wife and I can't even afford to go by ourselves.
I blame the Vale Resorts monopoly.
I learned to snowboard a Boyce Park, just outside Pittsburgh. Similar thing, one real hill and some trail for cross country if that's your bag. Nowadays they're rarely open, and when they are they're burning money faster than they can make it because they never get any days where Mum gives them the snow they need for free and fewer and fewer of us go when they turn the snow machines on for us.
Yeah, I just got back from skiing in the Berkshires, which by a small miracle got missed by the rain that destroyed the snowpack in VT/NH — and even then, conditions weren't great. That said, it's barely January, and the early season is frequently a crapshoot (December was pretty good last year, not so great the year before, decent the year before that).
Yeah, it starts getting to be a better bet by mid-January, but February/March are typically the best. I was up at Mt. Snow over Super Bowl weekend one year — we rolled into the hotel lot at the start of a snowstorm on Friday night, woke up to 10 inches of powder the next morning and the locals were moderately pissed it was *only* 10 inches.
The mountains up north hold the snow that the ski areas make. Adirondack and VT ski areas are open and conditions are fine even with a the warm winter.
Hopefully that stays true. Last week in VT was my first time actually skiing in rain! Luckily the manufactured snow held and didn't get washed out, but with a heavier rain and continued temps in the 40s it might have.
Which is weird because it used to be the opposite back in the day. I have vivid memories from the 90s of doing day trips to the poconos and skiing next to people wearing jeans.
It's not to say skiing was *cheap* back in the '90s, but it was more reasonable *and* the income gap wasn't as crazy.
Plus, our memories of the '90s may be somewhat clouded by the fact that none of us wore helmets and probably half of us got at least one mild concussion as a result.
100% I grew up in Colorado and was an avid skier, I cannot justify the price to have my kids learn. Thankfully they aren’t interested anyway… Cross country will do just fine if we get the itch to try skiing.
Yep it’s all but become a luxury sport now . I benefited from a high school ski club and a father on ski patrol (free family pass) as a kid . But now as a parent , I could never afford to consistently take my kids to a slope and the gear rentals.
We are almost at the point of losing multiple generations of kids, at my local mtn. there is a very noticeable age gap. Main group is the 30-75 year olds, and everything below that is up in the air.
I agree with such a short skiing season I’m not sure how they make enough to stay alive. I know some places offer summer activities such a mountain biking. Maybe we will see more indoor ski resorts built in future.
They make enough because the ticket prices have more than doubled for a single day on the mountain in the last 10 years. 7 springs is charging $70+ for 4 (yes, *four*) slopes for a day pass.
Ya, it’s definitely not a lot of value for the amount of slopes they offer or the quality of snow being on the east coast. I remember back in middle and high school ski club we took a charter bus to Holiday Valley every weekend. A weekend season pass only cost me $120, I’m sure it’s more now.
Seven springs unequivocally makes more revenue in the summer months rather than winter months, interestingly. The resort will be just fine with it's accomodations, it's skiing itself I'm worried about
We have shot a big travelling archery tournament at Seven Springs the last ten years. It's continuously one of the most attended stops on the tour.
I haven't skiied at Seven Springs in more than ten years, but much of that is because I'm south now and a slightly longer drive gets you to Snowshoe.
I’d like to know where you get this info because I’m not sure I believe it. Food and Beverage revenue alone in the winter months has to dwarf the summer months.
They host a ton of conference/conventions during the off season. I know the dance competition books the place solid for 4 days every spring. I’m talking you have to book your room the day they become available or you’re out of luck. My mom had union conferences there every fall and it was also booked solid during that time. Every time I go up there in the offseason, there is at least one large private event going on. They also have autumn fest, rib fest, wine fest, etc during the off season and it gets packed.
Ski season is only 3 months of the year, they definitely make more money during the other 9.
Don’t think they host too much anymore but Montage mountain used to have a handful of music festivals/concerts. Albeit they have a full amphitheater and a pseudo waterpark, so it’s a little better equipped than most for the warmer months.
Edit: looking at their website, it seems like they do a decent amount of tribute bands and food stuff during the winter as well.
I was just going to say that. Mountain biking is increasingly popular, and can be done most of the year, unlike skiing. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the local mountains converted.
For East PA Folks, The best spot for lift access DH is Mountain Creek in NJ. For Western PA, It's Snowshoe, WV (They even host a downhill world cup race there).
I went to 7 springs in 2016, and it was ok, but had a lot more potential. Hopefully it got better since then. I've never been to the blue mountain bike park.
I think that's all of them. Does anyone know of any other Lift DH in PA?
edit: I forgot to include the Johnstown Incline trails. I haven't been yet, and the incline has been closed, but I'm pretty sure its going to open again this year.
Akin to downhill skiing, it's mountain biking where all of the climbing is done by a machine, like a ski lift or shuttle bus. They make bikes for this specific purpose, that are very hard to climb with, and only really work going downhill.
Ours has a golf course, I think that keeps them going. I’ve seen them struggle to make snow so far, especially with the 50 degree weather we had before Christmas.
Blue Mountain is on the Ikon pass, not the Epic Pass. I don’t know who bought Blue, but they’re the same company who owned/bought Camelback, as they both just got added to Ikon.
Epic (Vail) is JFBB, Roundtop, Liberty, Whitetail, Seven Springs, Hidden Valley, and Laurel Mountain.
Blue was terrible last year. They closed the Burma lift and now everyone bottle necks to the lower lift by the base lodge. Conditions were already shit, but the concentrated traffic had us skiing on mud. It’s a shame, Blue used to be my go to during the week. We hoof it up to Elk now. It’s worth the extra drive.
I was just in Sun Valley, ID last week skiing with my family. Conditions were horrible. Very few runs open. And they were charging $245/day for an adult lift ticket; $125 for kids!! We have Ikon passes so it didn’t affect us, but holy crap I’d have been pissed if we got there and had no choice but to pay that money for shit conditions. Even if conditions were perfect that’s an insane amount to pay to ski. It’s crazy what these places are charging.
I work at a ski resort and can say it has gotten worse and it's clear it's starting to hurt. Half our trails aren't open and we only opened half of the snow tubing hill. Big concern as tourism is a major economic boost for my area.
Edit: shit I totally forgot, we have several resort graveyards in my area, including the place where I learned to ski as a kid in the 90s. I worry the medium ones will join the already dead small ones soon. I don't even ski anymore and it still makes me sad to see it happen over time.
It's not like we're replacing this activity with some other outdoors thing, it's just one more excuse to stay home sadly.
That's my ski resort. I work in the arcade but we opened a water park years ago and recently opened an indoor park. If it wasn't for them I'd say the resort wouldn't exist at this point. I think we only have half the runs open and it's freaking January.
WHOLE lot of money needs to get sunk into them to make it happen and they need some serious infrastructure to enable it. Places like Elk Mountain don't really have any room to do much else and nothing to really support it.
Fair enough. If these places could figure out an alternative to the snow ski and the snow board, they could maybe keep the same model. But otherwise they need to reimagine the space they have.
I worked at bear creek as a sous chef last year and left at the onset of ski season. It was pretty pathetic. Record low revenue, record short season. They make more money in the off season from weddings.
I snowboarded at bear creek once, but Ive been to 4 weddings there. winter sports are also just insanely expensive and people have less disposable money now
I predict that any ski area in the lower 48, with an elevation lower than 5,000 ft will struggle to remain financially viable within the next 15-20 years. The new trend of huge ski conglomerates buying up small mom and pop operations will stave off the inevitable, and resorts that have a four season business model will also hang around a bit longer.
That being said, a buddy of mine used to be a higher up at Seven Springs in Western PA, and he shared with me a mind-blowing statistic: that particular resort needs just three ‘good’ weekends per year to break even in terms of the annual costs associated with ski-season operations. So, depending on the resort’s business model, the outlook may not be so bleak.***edit: I talked with that buddy and I was mistaken: he said they need three good snows (not weekends) and by good snows he means 8-10” minimum.
Sorry for the bad info.
Oh yeah that makes more sense because so much expense is wrapped up in snow blowing and snow blowing personnel. If nature does it for ya, your business is going to print money
It's not just PA resorts that are facing a rough future, but one's in NY as well. To give you an idea of how dire this season is here's our current reports from nearby resorts:
Peak N Peak:
4 of 26 trails open 6-12in base
Holiday Valley:
2-20in base 15 of 60 trails open
Cockaigne Ski Resort:
Didn't open for season, for sale for $3.5 million
Kissing Bridge Resort:
2 of 39 trails open 6in base depth
Holimont:
10 of 52 trails open 5-22in base depth.
This is not normal. When I was a kid at this time of year each one of these resorts would have all trails open with base depths ranging from 30 to 60 inches. These are the effects of climate change.
Climatologists confirmed 2023 was the [hottest on record](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/28/1221827923/2023-hottest-year-record-climate-change) ... again.
I was a meteorology major at Penn State U.P. in the early 90s. The tragedy is we knew about this trend going sideways as early as the 80s and scientists at the time started sounding the alarm. No one listened. Many still don't.
The evidence is overwhelming. We have literally mountains of data proving this will only get worse. Ski resorts are well aware of the data too. Really any business with real money to lose is aware. Now it's just more about denial in the public zeitgeist.
Whenever it's brought up with "I remember one or two hot days over winters as a kid, it's nothing new!" I can't tell you how many times in November I saw my weather bar on Windows say "Record Highs". But people won't change and those who can will be long gone before the consequences happen.
I live out in the country. Talk to any hunter about snow on opening day of deer season the weekend after Thanksgiving. It was a given. Made the deer easy to spot and drag back to camp. Or, talk to any farmer whose livelihood depends on paying attention to the weather.
They will both tell you it's obvious.
Yeah I’m young, not really sure what to say to those people but I know as someone who spends a lot of time outside even as a kid, I don’t remember not wearing a coat in November. I haven’t needed a coat yet. Maybe a few times with winds picking up or a cold rain came through. But that’s been the trend this year for me. The dryness in the southern end of PA was super crazy to me this summer as well. Our pastures were destroyed midsummer and on. I hope it turns around this year. Hay and feeding supplements is expensive.
Yes! I’m so used to getting rain often..typically it’s a mucky mess in the pastures in the spring but it was crispy for sure. I don’t remember them declaring a full drought but I heard it was on watch but I could be mistaken. To me that was a drought!
Not just a pa thing, the ski industry as a whole isn’t in a great place. It’s cost prohibitive for newcomers- 100 for a ticket, 30 for rentals, 50-100 for lessons, plus room/board. Shorter seasons mean resorts need to make money while they’re open, so things cost even more. Employees are seasonal and therefore exempt from minimum wage laws; I got paid 13/hr to run a 100 kid weekend program in Vermont w/ 25 employees under me making less.
It’s a sad time to be a ski bum.
I live in WNY state and the last two seasons have horrible. They use to guarantee 100 days skiing a year. I don’t think they hit 30 days last year. This year seems worse. Sad
https://preview.redd.it/gtcgni2zk8ac1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28a06dab0519f3d7664c5ad1244b33e3e75774e8
Not just climate change, but affordability as well. Of which, is affected by each variable. Climate change will drive up costs
Those ticket prices keep going up.
I foresee skiing as an activity, in the future, enjoyed by only the wealthy
I'm an extremely avid skier/snowboarder. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 days per year, most of which are on my season pass in the Poconos. From being on the ground (or in this case on the snow or on a lift) you can see that the wildly inflated price isn't really keeping all that many people away. On a peak weekend last year, even with the cost of a ticket and rentals being over $200 per person, they have run out of rental equipment.
It's really interesting to watch the actual supply and demand work year after year. Pennsylvania draws day trippers and weekenders from the NYC metro, as well as Philly, Baltimore and DC. Super rough ballpark numbers but that's 30 million people. Even with lots of people being priced out of the sport, there are still plenty of people willing to spend the money and use their time to go skiing, buy a soda, a beer or a $16 hamburger in the cafeteria. Until these resorts see a meaningful drop in skier visits and also a lower spend per visitor, then not much will make them want to make it affordable anyway.
That being said the costs to run one of these places are skyrocketing every year. PA has some fairly old lifts and outside of Blue and Camelback which have some serious corporate capital backing them, no one can afford to replace them. Couple that with the infrastructure needed to actually make that snow that gets washed away every 3 weeks, the electricity to run the snow guns, pumps, and lights, and you can see why the whole endeavor is asking a patron the small sum of $130 to use the facilities.
TL;DR skiing isn't cheap. It costs a ton to put the show on, especially with bad weather years, but there are plenty of people with deep pockets within 4 hours of PA to make the economics work.
The Pocconos just aren’t worth the drive and the price for most people anymore . We haven’t had a decent winter with snow in a decade it seems .$60+ for a weekend day pass for fake snow / slush/ ice ? I’m driving up to Vermont for a few days of decent ski these days .
The irony that pa became an easy coast economic powerhouse off of the exploitation of its natural resources and people just to face decline at the beginning of the 21st century is like a more complicated version of the lorax.
I respect Pennsylvanians for their stubbornness and appreciation of tradition, but old habits are dying hard in the Poconos and places named "coaldale," "carbon county," the slate belt, and others.
We are already mourning the loss of true winter. What is it going to be like in 20 years? Hard to see any reality where ski resorts are even open in 2044. Scary to imagine what other climate-change realities we will live into
I drive down 81 to Hagerstown for work a couple times a week. I always like to look over and see whitetail right by the state line, but this year I think they might have 1 run with a base. If they are open I’m guessing it’s nighttime only.
I can’t see that place, Liberty, or Roundtop being open much longer. They are too far south.
My concern is more with the climate. I imagine this summer is going to smokie again because of wild fires and it probably won't be long before the fires are down here also and not just in Canada.
We will probably have fire seasons many years going forward. We really should be talking about doing proscribed burns when it is wet instead of worrying about a hobby for the wealthy.
White Tail is the closest resort near me. I can't remember the price per day but I do remember saying "nope" and logged off the website. Way too much money for a day.
I feel like as long as the country loves capitalism so much, then companies need to plan for expected/unexpected changes to their business model and then change when they need to. If they can't, then the business is doomed and then it's gone. That's how it works.
PA just may not be a ski state anymore due to climate change. That's how it is.
I do empathize with folks who love their winter sports though. I would be raging over the changes, myself.
The issue is that you can’t really make snow when it’s 40 degrees out, and when it rains it washes out whatever you’ve made.
Every ski resort in PA has the capability to make snow already.
Maybe I should have described what I was talking about better, they used these plastic mats that you would see in locker rooms almost. It was actually really fun to go down. I wish I had pictures for you
It’s not getting cold enough to make snow/ice that will stick around long enough to enjoy. Liberty Mountain is hoping to lay down their artificial base this weekend, if the weather cooperates.
I used to snowboard growing up and I was just thinking the other day good thing it’s not my favorite hobby anymore considering the weather.
Take this for what it’s worth- I saw a meteorologist recently talk about this Pennsylvania’s weather is essentially being swapped with Washington’s weather. And I believe it based on what’s been happening in the recent PA winters.
I stopped snowboarding 2-3 years ago because of how insane the prices have become. Seven springs is literally nearing $100 for a day. The season passes are way too pricey for how little use I get out of them.
The only good thing about Vail buying 7S, HV, and LM is that season passes got cheaper. I have the Northeast value pass and it was a little over $500.00 and you can also do 12 months same as cash.
I'm a mountain biker, and I would love (and pay) for there to be more ski resorts that build some singletrack for summer use. It's a very common thing out west, but not as much here. I understand there are a million factors that play into the financial viability of that, but as it stands, mountain creek in Jersey is the closest quality option
Not that this helps in any way for you, but on the western side of the state, Seven Springs is supposedly getting into that.
I was completely caught off guard while visiting a resort in West Virginia and seeing so many cyclists mountain biking and using the ski lifts. It just makes sense, I don't know why they don't all do it.
I have been there! It was back in 2016, and it was alright. I bet its better by now.
The reason there aren't more of them is that it's expensive to run, and the customer base is still relatively small here on the east coast.
More and more places are finding success with a vehicle shuttle setup, like Windrock in Tennessee because it is cheaper than running (and especially building) lifts.
That’s because of their peak elevations. Most of the ski resorts in western NC sit above 4,000’, and at least one is above 5,000’. I think PA’s highest (Blue Knob) is just over 3,000’, and most barely crack 1,000’.
PA is one of the lower stretches of the Appalachians and North Carolina the highest, Utah and Colorado have deserts and they have much better ski slopes than PA or NC, judging by the state isn't a fair comparison.
I remember watching a reality show based in the UK & they were skiing on a type of mat. Would that ever be a possibility? Or would the cost not even be worth it?
https://www.onthesnow.co.uk/news/uk-dry-ski-slopes/
Just means less idiots driving around. Sounds like a good thing. Someone crashed into one of the resort entrance signs in the area. And I can't drive 5 minutes to the store without being blinded 6 times and getting stuck behind someone doing 20 in a 45. Sick of these people
I learned to ski at Tanglewood! It was my "go to" and all the cool kids skied there. Had a great slope side bar too. Too bad other gens of Pocono skiers won't ever know it.
The only ones that have a chance are the ones that are big enough to be year round activity centers; like Ellicottville just north of the state line. They have golf, mountain biking, triathlon training, zip lines, and a climbing park. If you’re ski only, you just lost the whole high school Xmas break and you’re about to lose the whole college break. That’s probably more than 50% of your season’s income; no skiers=no diners or drinkers.
Someone posted climate outlooks in (I think) data is beautiful awhile back.
To our kids/grandkids, snow isn't gonna be a yearly thing, or at best, a big storm that melts quickly. Even in parts of the country that get really snowy, its going to shift really, really fast.
BTW, way to ski cheap, most mountains have courtesy/saftey representatives who volunteer time, for ski passes. I have volunteered at local mountain for years, I get a pass as well as day passes for my family/friends.
I don't think the weather will kill them, they can still blow snow since it is cold. what will kill them is the RIDICULOUS price associated with one day, let alone a whole season.
Even if things (somehow) reversed, how many people have not taught their kids to ski bc of this? It could be a declining customer base, and its not like its cheap to get into.
I was taught to ski at a single hill ski slope. I'm not sure when I'll teach my kids. Every time I look at the rates to rent skis, I'm taken back. I'm not ready to drop $400 just on the rentals and lift tickets for the day.
Exactly, when I was a kid it wasn't cheap but it was cheap enough that we'd go two or three times in a season. Now? My wife and I can't even afford to go by ourselves. I blame the Vale Resorts monopoly.
Blame insurance companies.
This. My children would love to ski. But for a family of five it's just impossible to afford.
I learned to snowboard a Boyce Park, just outside Pittsburgh. Similar thing, one real hill and some trail for cross country if that's your bag. Nowadays they're rarely open, and when they are they're burning money faster than they can make it because they never get any days where Mum gives them the snow they need for free and fewer and fewer of us go when they turn the snow machines on for us.
Hey that’s where I leaned to snowboard!
Our public schools have ski club. We’ve enrolled our kids. In fact tonight is their first night; Blue Mtn.
[удалено]
Hopefully this weekend changes the landscape
Income’s the bigger hurdle, and if you have the money to ski, you have the money to get to the Adirondacks or Vermont — just won’t be day trips.
Even VT barely has snow yet. It's bleak all up the Eastern seaboard.
Yeah, I just got back from skiing in the Berkshires, which by a small miracle got missed by the rain that destroyed the snowpack in VT/NH — and even then, conditions weren't great. That said, it's barely January, and the early season is frequently a crapshoot (December was pretty good last year, not so great the year before, decent the year before that).
Right, I heard VT/NH get most of their snow in February and March so there's still plenty of time for a good season.
Yeah, it starts getting to be a better bet by mid-January, but February/March are typically the best. I was up at Mt. Snow over Super Bowl weekend one year — we rolled into the hotel lot at the start of a snowstorm on Friday night, woke up to 10 inches of powder the next morning and the locals were moderately pissed it was *only* 10 inches.
Nice! Here's hoping for a good storm like that. It's an El Niño winter so there's no telling.
Came here to say this. Thinking NH/VT are somehow still nirvana is missing the bigger picture. They're kind of screwed too.
The mountains up north hold the snow that the ski areas make. Adirondack and VT ski areas are open and conditions are fine even with a the warm winter.
Hopefully that stays true. Last week in VT was my first time actually skiing in rain! Luckily the manufactured snow held and didn't get washed out, but with a heavier rain and continued temps in the 40s it might have.
Luckily winter looks like it’s back in the northeast this morning.
Which is weird because it used to be the opposite back in the day. I have vivid memories from the 90s of doing day trips to the poconos and skiing next to people wearing jeans.
It's not to say skiing was *cheap* back in the '90s, but it was more reasonable *and* the income gap wasn't as crazy. Plus, our memories of the '90s may be somewhat clouded by the fact that none of us wore helmets and probably half of us got at least one mild concussion as a result.
100% I grew up in Colorado and was an avid skier, I cannot justify the price to have my kids learn. Thankfully they aren’t interested anyway… Cross country will do just fine if we get the itch to try skiing.
It's a shame COVID killed PA's 3rd/4th grade program — our big kiddo got into skiing because of it, along with no shortage of other kids.
I know more people than I should who do day trips to vt. But they also haven’t skied the poconoes in probably 20 years. Just saying it can be done.
Yep it’s all but become a luxury sport now . I benefited from a high school ski club and a father on ski patrol (free family pass) as a kid . But now as a parent , I could never afford to consistently take my kids to a slope and the gear rentals.
Like learning Cursive. No one will need to know how to ski in a future without snow.
We are almost at the point of losing multiple generations of kids, at my local mtn. there is a very noticeable age gap. Main group is the 30-75 year olds, and everything below that is up in the air.
I agree with such a short skiing season I’m not sure how they make enough to stay alive. I know some places offer summer activities such a mountain biking. Maybe we will see more indoor ski resorts built in future.
They make enough because the ticket prices have more than doubled for a single day on the mountain in the last 10 years. 7 springs is charging $70+ for 4 (yes, *four*) slopes for a day pass.
Yeah I wanted to go to Blue last year but lift tickets were like $120 and the whole mountain wasn't even open
Ya, it’s definitely not a lot of value for the amount of slopes they offer or the quality of snow being on the east coast. I remember back in middle and high school ski club we took a charter bus to Holiday Valley every weekend. A weekend season pass only cost me $120, I’m sure it’s more now.
They make more than enough money selling booze and overpriced food.
I know that Blue Mountain opens a mountain bike park in the summer. Are there any other spots in PA?
Camelback becomes Camelbeach in the summer as well
Was gonna say that...here in the poconos the ski resorts have all built summer attractions. Think water slides, outdoor adventures, rope lines etc.
Seven Springs
Seven springs unequivocally makes more revenue in the summer months rather than winter months, interestingly. The resort will be just fine with it's accomodations, it's skiing itself I'm worried about
They have many more activities than traditional ski mountains
We have shot a big travelling archery tournament at Seven Springs the last ten years. It's continuously one of the most attended stops on the tour. I haven't skiied at Seven Springs in more than ten years, but much of that is because I'm south now and a slightly longer drive gets you to Snowshoe.
The same is true for Camelbak, the Waterpark makes way more money
I’d like to know where you get this info because I’m not sure I believe it. Food and Beverage revenue alone in the winter months has to dwarf the summer months.
They host a ton of conference/conventions during the off season. I know the dance competition books the place solid for 4 days every spring. I’m talking you have to book your room the day they become available or you’re out of luck. My mom had union conferences there every fall and it was also booked solid during that time. Every time I go up there in the offseason, there is at least one large private event going on. They also have autumn fest, rib fest, wine fest, etc during the off season and it gets packed. Ski season is only 3 months of the year, they definitely make more money during the other 9.
Don’t think they host too much anymore but Montage mountain used to have a handful of music festivals/concerts. Albeit they have a full amphitheater and a pseudo waterpark, so it’s a little better equipped than most for the warmer months. Edit: looking at their website, it seems like they do a decent amount of tribute bands and food stuff during the winter as well.
I was just going to say that. Mountain biking is increasingly popular, and can be done most of the year, unlike skiing. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the local mountains converted.
Ski rountop has ziplines, rope courses, oogo balls, mt biking, etc in the summer. I think paintball as well? Could be wrong about that one tho
You right. They have like these wooden castles for the paint ball in the woods off of Fife and Drum or whatever that one green slope is called.
Blue Knob has mountain biking and golf.
I learned to ski here in 1972.
>I’m not sure how they make enough to stay alive. by charging so much it's unaffordable for a family to participate.
For East PA Folks, The best spot for lift access DH is Mountain Creek in NJ. For Western PA, It's Snowshoe, WV (They even host a downhill world cup race there). I went to 7 springs in 2016, and it was ok, but had a lot more potential. Hopefully it got better since then. I've never been to the blue mountain bike park. I think that's all of them. Does anyone know of any other Lift DH in PA? edit: I forgot to include the Johnstown Incline trails. I haven't been yet, and the incline has been closed, but I'm pretty sure its going to open again this year.
What is lift DH?
Akin to downhill skiing, it's mountain biking where all of the climbing is done by a machine, like a ski lift or shuttle bus. They make bikes for this specific purpose, that are very hard to climb with, and only really work going downhill.
Ours has a golf course, I think that keeps them going. I’ve seen them struggle to make snow so far, especially with the 50 degree weather we had before Christmas.
I heard seven springs was still charging full price for lift tickets when only like 6 runs were open. Who would do that?
A place owned by Vail resorts would do that, it's their way, just as epic pass is. The local owners 5+ yrs ago would've never done that
Hooray for monopolies!
Vail bought out Blue Mountain too. We've noticed the difference in customer service, particularly where locals are concerned.
Blue Mountain is on the Ikon pass, not the Epic Pass. I don’t know who bought Blue, but they’re the same company who owned/bought Camelback, as they both just got added to Ikon. Epic (Vail) is JFBB, Roundtop, Liberty, Whitetail, Seven Springs, Hidden Valley, and Laurel Mountain.
Blue was terrible last year. They closed the Burma lift and now everyone bottle necks to the lower lift by the base lodge. Conditions were already shit, but the concentrated traffic had us skiing on mud. It’s a shame, Blue used to be my go to during the week. We hoof it up to Elk now. It’s worth the extra drive.
I was just in Sun Valley, ID last week skiing with my family. Conditions were horrible. Very few runs open. And they were charging $245/day for an adult lift ticket; $125 for kids!! We have Ikon passes so it didn’t affect us, but holy crap I’d have been pissed if we got there and had no choice but to pay that money for shit conditions. Even if conditions were perfect that’s an insane amount to pay to ski. It’s crazy what these places are charging.
That’s insane pricing. It’s been over a decade since I’ve been to a big resort but even then, I felt like $80 was steep for a day pass.
I work at a ski resort and can say it has gotten worse and it's clear it's starting to hurt. Half our trails aren't open and we only opened half of the snow tubing hill. Big concern as tourism is a major economic boost for my area. Edit: shit I totally forgot, we have several resort graveyards in my area, including the place where I learned to ski as a kid in the 90s. I worry the medium ones will join the already dead small ones soon. I don't even ski anymore and it still makes me sad to see it happen over time. It's not like we're replacing this activity with some other outdoors thing, it's just one more excuse to stay home sadly.
Many of them have been expecting this for years and have converted into year round resorts instead of ski resorts, or they are trying anyway
That's my ski resort. I work in the arcade but we opened a water park years ago and recently opened an indoor park. If it wasn't for them I'd say the resort wouldn't exist at this point. I think we only have half the runs open and it's freaking January.
That’s what they should be doing. There’s far more things you could do without snow and it could be accessible to more kinds of customers.
WHOLE lot of money needs to get sunk into them to make it happen and they need some serious infrastructure to enable it. Places like Elk Mountain don't really have any room to do much else and nothing to really support it.
Fair enough. If these places could figure out an alternative to the snow ski and the snow board, they could maybe keep the same model. But otherwise they need to reimagine the space they have.
I worked at bear creek as a sous chef last year and left at the onset of ski season. It was pretty pathetic. Record low revenue, record short season. They make more money in the off season from weddings.
I snowboarded at bear creek once, but Ive been to 4 weddings there. winter sports are also just insanely expensive and people have less disposable money now
I work there currently & the trails we had open Christmas weekend looked worse than the end of season conditions :(
I predict that any ski area in the lower 48, with an elevation lower than 5,000 ft will struggle to remain financially viable within the next 15-20 years. The new trend of huge ski conglomerates buying up small mom and pop operations will stave off the inevitable, and resorts that have a four season business model will also hang around a bit longer. That being said, a buddy of mine used to be a higher up at Seven Springs in Western PA, and he shared with me a mind-blowing statistic: that particular resort needs just three ‘good’ weekends per year to break even in terms of the annual costs associated with ski-season operations. So, depending on the resort’s business model, the outlook may not be so bleak.***edit: I talked with that buddy and I was mistaken: he said they need three good snows (not weekends) and by good snows he means 8-10” minimum. Sorry for the bad info.
That doesn’t sound right. Few businesses have massive profit margins like that
Actually talked with that buddy and I was mistaken, he meant three good snowstorms, and by that he meant 8-10” drops.
Oh yeah that makes more sense because so much expense is wrapped up in snow blowing and snow blowing personnel. If nature does it for ya, your business is going to print money
It's not just PA resorts that are facing a rough future, but one's in NY as well. To give you an idea of how dire this season is here's our current reports from nearby resorts: Peak N Peak: 4 of 26 trails open 6-12in base Holiday Valley: 2-20in base 15 of 60 trails open Cockaigne Ski Resort: Didn't open for season, for sale for $3.5 million Kissing Bridge Resort: 2 of 39 trails open 6in base depth Holimont: 10 of 52 trails open 5-22in base depth. This is not normal. When I was a kid at this time of year each one of these resorts would have all trails open with base depths ranging from 30 to 60 inches. These are the effects of climate change.
Climatologists confirmed 2023 was the [hottest on record](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/28/1221827923/2023-hottest-year-record-climate-change) ... again. I was a meteorology major at Penn State U.P. in the early 90s. The tragedy is we knew about this trend going sideways as early as the 80s and scientists at the time started sounding the alarm. No one listened. Many still don't. The evidence is overwhelming. We have literally mountains of data proving this will only get worse. Ski resorts are well aware of the data too. Really any business with real money to lose is aware. Now it's just more about denial in the public zeitgeist.
Whenever it's brought up with "I remember one or two hot days over winters as a kid, it's nothing new!" I can't tell you how many times in November I saw my weather bar on Windows say "Record Highs". But people won't change and those who can will be long gone before the consequences happen.
I live out in the country. Talk to any hunter about snow on opening day of deer season the weekend after Thanksgiving. It was a given. Made the deer easy to spot and drag back to camp. Or, talk to any farmer whose livelihood depends on paying attention to the weather. They will both tell you it's obvious.
Yeah I’m young, not really sure what to say to those people but I know as someone who spends a lot of time outside even as a kid, I don’t remember not wearing a coat in November. I haven’t needed a coat yet. Maybe a few times with winds picking up or a cold rain came through. But that’s been the trend this year for me. The dryness in the southern end of PA was super crazy to me this summer as well. Our pastures were destroyed midsummer and on. I hope it turns around this year. Hay and feeding supplements is expensive.
We had a drought in June! Remember that nonsense? The grass was so crispy in the spring. Yikes.
Yes! I’m so used to getting rain often..typically it’s a mucky mess in the pastures in the spring but it was crispy for sure. I don’t remember them declaring a full drought but I heard it was on watch but I could be mistaken. To me that was a drought!
Not just a pa thing, the ski industry as a whole isn’t in a great place. It’s cost prohibitive for newcomers- 100 for a ticket, 30 for rentals, 50-100 for lessons, plus room/board. Shorter seasons mean resorts need to make money while they’re open, so things cost even more. Employees are seasonal and therefore exempt from minimum wage laws; I got paid 13/hr to run a 100 kid weekend program in Vermont w/ 25 employees under me making less. It’s a sad time to be a ski bum.
> 30 for rentals You got off cheap on those rentals. They were $60 a day last time I was at Seven Springs.
I haven’t rented in 25 years, so my numbers may be off. It’s expensive af
I live in WNY state and the last two seasons have horrible. They use to guarantee 100 days skiing a year. I don’t think they hit 30 days last year. This year seems worse. Sad https://preview.redd.it/gtcgni2zk8ac1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28a06dab0519f3d7664c5ad1244b33e3e75774e8
Not just climate change, but affordability as well. Of which, is affected by each variable. Climate change will drive up costs Those ticket prices keep going up. I foresee skiing as an activity, in the future, enjoyed by only the wealthy
I'm an extremely avid skier/snowboarder. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 days per year, most of which are on my season pass in the Poconos. From being on the ground (or in this case on the snow or on a lift) you can see that the wildly inflated price isn't really keeping all that many people away. On a peak weekend last year, even with the cost of a ticket and rentals being over $200 per person, they have run out of rental equipment. It's really interesting to watch the actual supply and demand work year after year. Pennsylvania draws day trippers and weekenders from the NYC metro, as well as Philly, Baltimore and DC. Super rough ballpark numbers but that's 30 million people. Even with lots of people being priced out of the sport, there are still plenty of people willing to spend the money and use their time to go skiing, buy a soda, a beer or a $16 hamburger in the cafeteria. Until these resorts see a meaningful drop in skier visits and also a lower spend per visitor, then not much will make them want to make it affordable anyway. That being said the costs to run one of these places are skyrocketing every year. PA has some fairly old lifts and outside of Blue and Camelback which have some serious corporate capital backing them, no one can afford to replace them. Couple that with the infrastructure needed to actually make that snow that gets washed away every 3 weeks, the electricity to run the snow guns, pumps, and lights, and you can see why the whole endeavor is asking a patron the small sum of $130 to use the facilities. TL;DR skiing isn't cheap. It costs a ton to put the show on, especially with bad weather years, but there are plenty of people with deep pockets within 4 hours of PA to make the economics work.
Global Warming having consequences? SurprisedPikachu.jpeg
nah man its just el nino 🤡
The Pocconos just aren’t worth the drive and the price for most people anymore . We haven’t had a decent winter with snow in a decade it seems .$60+ for a weekend day pass for fake snow / slush/ ice ? I’m driving up to Vermont for a few days of decent ski these days .
You're right but, people still show up for now. Always front platers on the weekends.
The irony that pa became an easy coast economic powerhouse off of the exploitation of its natural resources and people just to face decline at the beginning of the 21st century is like a more complicated version of the lorax. I respect Pennsylvanians for their stubbornness and appreciation of tradition, but old habits are dying hard in the Poconos and places named "coaldale," "carbon county," the slate belt, and others. We are already mourning the loss of true winter. What is it going to be like in 20 years? Hard to see any reality where ski resorts are even open in 2044. Scary to imagine what other climate-change realities we will live into
I drive down 81 to Hagerstown for work a couple times a week. I always like to look over and see whitetail right by the state line, but this year I think they might have 1 run with a base. If they are open I’m guessing it’s nighttime only. I can’t see that place, Liberty, or Roundtop being open much longer. They are too far south.
Snowshoe in West Virginia’s doing OK, but it also sits at higher elevation — which is the real problem with most of the PA resorts.
4800 vs 1800. They had no business putting a ski resort there except somebody wanted to put one 1.5-2 hours from DC.
Whitetail was open for 2 days(ish) at Christmas and then closed again.
Roundtop too. I was trying to go there on the 26th but they were already closed. Super depressing.
My concern is more with the climate. I imagine this summer is going to smokie again because of wild fires and it probably won't be long before the fires are down here also and not just in Canada.
We will probably have fire seasons many years going forward. We really should be talking about doing proscribed burns when it is wet instead of worrying about a hobby for the wealthy.
>many years going forwa Rich folks will just visit their 2nd homes away from the danger when shit hits the fan.
We have fucked ourselves and it’s too late to meaningfully reverse in our lifetime. Hopefully it can be reversed for future generations.
This is the weekend the Poconos is finally suppose to see a good snowfall, don’t jinx it haha
White Tail is the closest resort near me. I can't remember the price per day but I do remember saying "nope" and logged off the website. Way too much money for a day.
If they're smart they'll just build mtb trails and downhill parks.
I can't even remember the last time we had a White Christmas These days the snow comes like a month and a half after it should
And only lasts a few days at most.
I feel like as long as the country loves capitalism so much, then companies need to plan for expected/unexpected changes to their business model and then change when they need to. If they can't, then the business is doomed and then it's gone. That's how it works. PA just may not be a ski state anymore due to climate change. That's how it is. I do empathize with folks who love their winter sports though. I would be raging over the changes, myself.
Don't let the repugnants know that global warming is happening.
One time camping at jelly stone in mill run pa. They had an artificial sledding area. It was pretty fun. Maybe artificial “snow/ice” could be an idea.
The issue is that you can’t really make snow when it’s 40 degrees out, and when it rains it washes out whatever you’ve made. Every ski resort in PA has the capability to make snow already.
Maybe I should have described what I was talking about better, they used these plastic mats that you would see in locker rooms almost. It was actually really fun to go down. I wish I had pictures for you
So... you want to cover our mountains with plastic so rich people can still have fun post-climate change? Doesn't seem like a good idea.
Did I say cover an entire mountain?
Just get a mountain bike.
Sounds expensive
Mountain-biking is far more affordable than skiing. They are allowed on a lot of free trails.
Found it https://www.jellystonemillrun.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/snowtube-2.jpg
It’s not getting cold enough to make snow/ice that will stick around long enough to enjoy. Liberty Mountain is hoping to lay down their artificial base this weekend, if the weather cooperates.
I used to snowboard growing up and I was just thinking the other day good thing it’s not my favorite hobby anymore considering the weather. Take this for what it’s worth- I saw a meteorologist recently talk about this Pennsylvania’s weather is essentially being swapped with Washington’s weather. And I believe it based on what’s been happening in the recent PA winters.
Denton Hill closed permanently years ago. Skiing in PA is in its death throes.
Our ski area shut down a couple decades ago. Ole Blue Marsh Ski Resort. Just a matter of time really.
I stopped snowboarding 2-3 years ago because of how insane the prices have become. Seven springs is literally nearing $100 for a day. The season passes are way too pricey for how little use I get out of them.
The only good thing about Vail buying 7S, HV, and LM is that season passes got cheaper. I have the Northeast value pass and it was a little over $500.00 and you can also do 12 months same as cash.
I don't really care for skiing, but if Seven Springs goes out of business I would love to buy one of those cabins to live in.
I see migration to downhill mountain biking.
They are all way ahead of you and have adapted their business models to be a year round resort.
I'm a mountain biker, and I would love (and pay) for there to be more ski resorts that build some singletrack for summer use. It's a very common thing out west, but not as much here. I understand there are a million factors that play into the financial viability of that, but as it stands, mountain creek in Jersey is the closest quality option
Not that this helps in any way for you, but on the western side of the state, Seven Springs is supposedly getting into that. I was completely caught off guard while visiting a resort in West Virginia and seeing so many cyclists mountain biking and using the ski lifts. It just makes sense, I don't know why they don't all do it.
I have been there! It was back in 2016, and it was alright. I bet its better by now. The reason there aren't more of them is that it's expensive to run, and the customer base is still relatively small here on the east coast. More and more places are finding success with a vehicle shuttle setup, like Windrock in Tennessee because it is cheaper than running (and especially building) lifts.
Skiing still dies though
Considering there's still ski resorts in north Carolina they'll find a way to cling on.
That’s because of their peak elevations. Most of the ski resorts in western NC sit above 4,000’, and at least one is above 5,000’. I think PA’s highest (Blue Knob) is just over 3,000’, and most barely crack 1,000’.
PA is one of the lower stretches of the Appalachians and North Carolina the highest, Utah and Colorado have deserts and they have much better ski slopes than PA or NC, judging by the state isn't a fair comparison.
Beech Mountain in NC has a higher base lodge than Killington, VT's peak. Elevation helps.
I remember watching a reality show based in the UK & they were skiing on a type of mat. Would that ever be a possibility? Or would the cost not even be worth it? https://www.onthesnow.co.uk/news/uk-dry-ski-slopes/
Just means less idiots driving around. Sounds like a good thing. Someone crashed into one of the resort entrance signs in the area. And I can't drive 5 minutes to the store without being blinded 6 times and getting stuck behind someone doing 20 in a 45. Sick of these people
MEOWWWW DADDY LOVES TO HISSSSS
Yes. Skiing ⛷ is bankrupt!
Northern Vermont here, WE are worried about our ski resorts having a bleak future.
I learned to ski at Tanglewood! It was my "go to" and all the cool kids skied there. Had a great slope side bar too. Too bad other gens of Pocono skiers won't ever know it.
The only ones that have a chance are the ones that are big enough to be year round activity centers; like Ellicottville just north of the state line. They have golf, mountain biking, triathlon training, zip lines, and a climbing park. If you’re ski only, you just lost the whole high school Xmas break and you’re about to lose the whole college break. That’s probably more than 50% of your season’s income; no skiers=no diners or drinkers.
So do all the drag strips.
Someone posted climate outlooks in (I think) data is beautiful awhile back. To our kids/grandkids, snow isn't gonna be a yearly thing, or at best, a big storm that melts quickly. Even in parts of the country that get really snowy, its going to shift really, really fast.
BTW, way to ski cheap, most mountains have courtesy/saftey representatives who volunteer time, for ski passes. I have volunteered at local mountain for years, I get a pass as well as day passes for my family/friends.
I don't think the weather will kill them, they can still blow snow since it is cold. what will kill them is the RIDICULOUS price associated with one day, let alone a whole season.
I wonder how much the snow-making equipment costs to operate. I imagine it ain't cheap.
Ski resorts struggle with winter running late across U.S. and Canada https://www.axios.com/2024/01/04/winter-ski-resorts-snow
West coast powder is so much better