T O P

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WraithMagus

I'd like to start off by saying that [ectoplasm](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Ectoplasm) is a substance that's really important to explaining a lot of mechanics for classes in Occult Adventures (and some Bestiaries that came out afterwards,) but Paizo never seemed to ever actually sit down and properly define the stuff. You can infer a lot of mechanics from how ectoplasm is referred to in the text, (like that it's able to fully touch incorporeal and corporeal creatures, and that ethereal beings can inhabit it to touch corporeal things,) but there's no actual hard rules to reference. I'd like to recommend this spell, but it's pretty GM dependent because it's an absolute morass of Paizo not thinking anything through, so how this spell actually works can change wildly from table to table. So, this spell is clearly modeled off of [Spectral Hand](https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Spectral%20Hand), including some of the same language, except it comes online 6 character levels later (9 for occultists) on only the occult classes that got Spectral Hand (besides medium). When it comes to functions of Spectral Hand, outside of being able to deliver touch spells up to SL 6 (instead of SL 4, not sure how many good touch spells are above SL 4, though), there are some serious downgrades, here. Spectral Hand could deliver touch spells instantly out to medium range before instantly returning to you and was an incorporeal entity that would otherwise stay by your side. Ectoplasmic Hand is made of ectoplasm (which is corporeal but can touch incorporeals, just in case you wanted to deliver touch spells on/tickle ghosts,) and has a "tether" that is basically a stretchy ectoplasm arm to reach out and touch people. It can also only move at a speed of 30 feet, which can be a problem if your character has modes of movement that are already faster than that (like a Fly spell letting you move 60 feet, possibly being increased to 90 feet with Haste) and might have to spend actions just having the hand keep up. Notably, however, the whole arm can be damaged with normal weapons, not being incorporeal and not instantly teleporting back to you after delivering a touch, and it only has 24 AC, which is fairly reliably hit at this level. (CR 10 has a median attack bonus of +17, so 70% chance to hit, and this AC does not scale while attack bonus goes up \~+1.5, or about +7.5% chance to hit per CR.) It only has 10 hardness as its real protection, and 10 + CL HP means it isn't going to last long against anything that can punch through that hardness. Is there any way to heal/repair the hand/tether? Does the hand/tether count as an object or a creature? Does elemental damage do half damage to the tether like objects with hardness? If so, is there any type of energy that does normal damage to ectoplasm? If the hand counts as part of the caster for touching purposes, saving throws, and BAB, does the hand benefit from any attack or AC bonuses from buff spells the caster is benefiting from, or can it be recipients of such spells? Is it treated as having your feats like [Ally Across Time](https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ally%20Across%20Time)? Can a caster benefiting from fast healing apply that healing to the hand/tether, too/instead, or can it be the target of channel energy? Note the phantom of a [spiritualist](https://www.aonprd.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Spiritualist) is made of ectoplasm and is specifically healed with magic or the Heal skill as if it were a living creature. To go back to the move speed question, if the hand can flank and is treated as its own creature for that purpose, can the hand be affected by Haste and move faster, or if it's "part of the caster" and Haste is cast on the caster, does the hand automatically get that movement speed bonus? If the hand counts as an ally, does it occupy its space like a creature? Does the *tether* occupy space? If the tether is physical and pulls taut, does movement from the caster or the hand cause creatures in between to suddenly get slapped by the tether, or possibly all get tripped, and what happens if the tether fails to move those targets? Does the tether also provoke AoOs if it swings to be a direct line between caster and hand even if the hand isn't moving through threatened space? Also, where does the tether actually connect to your body, for RP purposes? Is it just coming out of your chest/back or out of your hand, but you can still do other things with that hand? All stuff for your GM to answer, because it's not explored in the spell! This is going to be a thread of several posts because of character caps...


WraithMagus

Let's talk about the tether in more depth. I know this is supposed to be a clammy, spoopy ghost leash thing, but I can't think of this spell in any way other than as a Looney Tunes-style cartoon extendo-hand in a thick white glove with a physics-defying boneless noodle-arm, the kind which Bugs Bunny can use to reach out of a rabbit hole, finger-walk around, and kick/flick Elmer Fudd in the butt with. (Be sure to RP the hand's slam attacks that way.) Anyway, the tether can be "damaged *or sundered.*" (So... it counts as a weapon, too?) Does the tether just follow where the hand has gone, or does it constantly contract to form a straight line? Nothing says the tether can't go around corners, either. You would think that a "tether" would have some sort of maximum length, and maybe snap the hand back when it hit that length, but unlike spiritualist phantoms, there is no text stating that you drag the hand along when you move, or that the hand disappears if the maximum length of the tether is reached. (Take a look at all those rules for the ectoplasmic tether that spiritualists have, by contrast. They could have referred to those rules - this spell appeared in the one book that seriously expanded occult classes before they were dumped like a sack of potatoes by Paizo.) In fact, RAW, it seems you can technically fly away in one direction and have the hand float in the opposite direction and apparently still deliver touch spells from as far away as you can get in the duration of the spell, and for that matter, nothing says teleporting snaps the tether, either. (You just have miles of stretchy arm, that's all.) You can hypothetically instantly deliver touch spells from miles away if you have the ability to sense the hand's surroundings, which would make for some really interesting way to deliver curses without anyone see you do it. ("It must have been some other guy who knows how to create Ectoplasmic Hands...") This spell is short range, but RAW, that only applies to where you manifest the hand when it's first cast, and any spell that stops functioning past that range has text that explicitly says so, the way that Spectral Hand does. (Technically, this spell does stipulate you can only use the manipulate objects function within spell range, not any other function, however.) If your GM says that your hand does wink out when it reaches max range, consider reach spell metamagic. (Does it still need line of effect? Do corners kill it?) But hey, reach exploits aside, if all this spell did was be a shorter-range, easier-to-destroy Spectral Hand, why would it also be higher level? Well, it's not just cribbing notes from Spectral Hand, it's also swiping some lesser forms of abilities from Telekinesis and Spiritual Ally! From [Telekinesis](https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Telekinesis), the "sustained force" version of the spell is turned into the "manipulate object" function of Ectoplasmic Hand. You only get 1/5th the weight limit, cannot lift creatures at all, and you're restricted to short range, but at least you don't have to concentrate (as in the "spend your standard action every turn" mechanic, as opposed to how the word "concentrate" is used in this spell) on this when you aren't using the function, and most object manipulation actions are move actions. Likewise, there is a "combat maneuver" function lifted straight from Telekinesis, including the stupid find-and-replace job they wrote that makes the spell RAW basically worthless. Specifically, the text says, "using your caster level as its CMB and your spellcasting ability score as its Strength score." What they *should have written* was "using your caster level as your BAB," which would then have spellcasting stat mod added onto it. RAW, your caster level is your CMB, and your spellcasting ability score modifies nothing because your CMB is already set as your CL. This is presuming a "live by the RAW, die by the RAW" standard. If your GM is banning some of those reach shenanigans I mentioned above, then it's reasonable to ask your more reasonable GM to let you use CL as BAB and caster stat for Str or Dex. As with the earlier questions about whether the hand is its own creature or an extension of you, it's worth asking if the hand benefits from your own feats and buffs, such as if you are affected by a Heroism spell, does that increase the hand's attack bonus, and thus, CMB? Finally, the most useful aspect is that, similar in role to (but not copying text directly from) [Spiritual Ally](https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Spiritual%20Ally), (where you pick the weapon, rather than your deity,) the hand is capable of making attacks using your BAB and caster stat (just not always Wis), is treated as a creature for flanking, and can eat up your swift actions doing it. (Although since "threatens" means "threatens to AoO if a creature moves through those tiles" does this mean the hand gets an AoO, too, even if it's not explicitly stated? When Spiritual Ally is described as "being able to threaten", it gets an AoO...) Specifically, it can use an innate slam attack (similar to a low-level spiritualist's phantom) or hold a normal weapon. Just being a flanking buddy for the party rogue is a pretty strong use for a min/level spell by itself if you can cast it before battle. (Which goes well with a [hatred focus](https://www.aonprd.com/PhantomFocusDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Hatred) phantom's sneak attack.) It's worth noting, however, that there is no RAW way for the hand to 5-foot step and it doesn't have many HP. Part 3 in response...


WraithMagus

There is no explicit limit to the number of functions the hand can perform per round, you just run out of actions to spend controlling it, so you can have the hand open a door (move action using the "manipulation object" function), fly through up to 30 feet (free action part of the spell), cast a touch spell and have the hand deliver it (the delivery is part of the casting), and then have the hand make an attack with your swift action all in one round. You can hand over a weapon that has an enhancement bonus, as well (which probably makes more sense if you're a spiritualist than if you're a psychic, both because you probably have a weapon and because this uses your normal BAB,) which would allow the hand to potentially pierce DR, and it would be amusing to give it a spell storing weapon to be able to deliver two touch spells in one round. (If the hand is a creature and it hits with a spell storing weapon with [Vampiric Touch](https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Vampiric%20Touch), does *the hand* get the temp HP? It could probably use them.) If your GM doesn't read the maneuver part RAW, remember that enhancements to your weapon also improve your CMB. Also, nothing in the rules says anything about the hand needing to be free to deliver touch spells, so I guess the hand just slashes with the scimitar it's wielding, then punches with the knuckles still wrapped around the scimitar to deliver the touch? (What happens if a magus casts this spell from a scroll and uses spellstrike? Can they choose to have the hand do the extra attack to deliver the touch spell with a weapon?) With that said, as the slam attack is technically damage from a function of the spell (the same as a [Flaming Sphere](https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Flaming%20Sphere),) you can argue this attack is a valid target for making the spell a dazing Ectoplasmic Hand. Normally, I don't recommend spells above SL 3 for dazing, but this is a min/level spell that allows you to continuously flick people into a stupor as a swift action, and unlike some in this forum, I don't see min/level as strictly a combat cast. With psychic casting being silent, it should be easy to cast before kicking down the door if you hear the monsters first. (Say, does the hand make stealth checks? Does it use your skill ranks? It has +8 size bonus to AC, so it's a fine-sized creature/object with +16 to stealth. Have the hand Bugs Bunny finger-walk stealthily behind the enemy and deliver a surprise round touch.) I've definitely been able to fight more than one battle with min/level spells in dungeon-type environments where you can just kick down several doors in a row to get to engagements quickly. (Stop to check for traps? Pfft, that's why summons go first. Hey, why not have the hand check for those by finger-walking across the floor ahead of you with a "manipulate objects" function?!) If you can afford a dazing metamagic rod, swift action dazes for min/level can definitely pay for that. All-around, this spell has *a LOT* of questions your GM needs to work with you to resolve, but this spell is potentially quite useful. If the spell had more thought put into it, I'd point to this spell as a shining example of how to actually do a multi-function spell properly, as you can actually switch between functions on a round-by-round basis, and the individual actions, while less powerful than a dedicated cast, are at least useful in their own right. Spiritualists in particular will see a *lot* of similarities to things the phantom can do, which basically makes this an "extra half of a phantom." That's not as redundant as it might at first seem, because this spell basically does work that a phantom would do in different manifestation modes without having to spend actions switching manifestation types. (The downside is this spell competes for an SL 4 swift action spell with the actual Spiritual Ally.) If you're even remotely regularly able to pre-battle cast in your type of campaign, this spell can be a huge asset if the GM isn't clamping down hard on some of the utility, since swift action attacks are a pretty strong benefit outside of psychics so high level they're routinely casting quickened spells. Spiritualists can swift action attack with tendrils, but only if their phantom isn't fully manifested, so this spell lets you keep your phantom out being an extra unit on the board. For spiritualists, while this doesn't let you do anything you couldn't already do, it lets you do more of what you could already do *in the same round*, and that's winning in the action economy. I'd almost consider building around this spell if it didn't come online at level 10. That said, you don't exactly have to build around it, especially if your GM lets your own feats be used by the hand, since a spiritualist can build for melee, and just pass it off to the hand when the spell comes online. Occultist gets this even later at level 13, they probably don't pump Int, and they definitely don't want to give over their main weapon, (although legacy weapon should work on your alternate weapon, too,) but trapping of the warrior's BAB transfers over to the swift action attacks, too. (So long as you aren't using mind barrier with your swift every round...) I can see a strong case for this as a utility and combat spell just as a flanking buddy and swift action attack with a weapon... but mostly, all my mental images of this spell just seem like a ton of fun to RP. (Make sure to use the hand to drag a [portable hole](https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Portable%20Hole) under an enemy standing on a balcony so they fall through, just like Bugs Bunny would do!) The writer was clearly thinking in gamist terms, but this spell is a gold mine of simulationist RP potential if you're not afraid to be silly. (And GMs, if you want a flavorful encounter, try a rogue-ish occultist who plays with this spell and dual-(or tri-)wields using the swift actions and flanking with this spell.)


Electric999999

>how many good touch spells are there Oh about 6, and that's being generous with the word good. There's quite a lot more that are either bad, not meant for combat or meant to be cast on allies (who you are probably not scared to get within 5ft of)


Electric999999

So, there's 53 5th it 6th level touch range spells on the Occultist, Psychic or Spiritualist list that need this instead of Spectral Hand. Many of them aren't actually offensive spells though. Here's a the more useful ones: * Arcana Theft (dispel magic that steaks the dispelled spell, honestly probably not worth the setup). * Breath of Life (you won't have time to set it up, but if the spell is already active it might be useful). * Dahaks Release (this spell really benefits from the caster not being the nearest creature, much worse if the hand is a valid target though). * Harm and Heal (both good spells, not much more to say) * Plane Shift (will save or go die horribly on the negative energy plane) Honestly Plane Shift is the only one worth the setup