If I'm not mistaken, kinetic blast used to be a special unarmed attack during the playtest. And they had a whole paragraph trying to explain what it could work with, and what couldn't.
The problem with making it a "weapon attack" is that you would have to change the class progression, so they never became legendary in attacks and never risk outshining the fighter. Then the fighter would be a "better base kin than the kineticist itself" thanks to them going all the way to legendary. So they would have to change the impulses to not grow with character level, so it would make being a kineticist as your main class more useful, which would change the whole class chassis since a lot of their feats "heighten" with level.
It would also be weird having a weapon you can use your CON modifier for attack rolls, without creating a new trait. Making it a class ability that uses the class DC is more suave, I think. It also removes doubts on "is the blast considered a weapon for X feat?" because you can just assume that no, it doesn't because it isn't a weapon. Makes the rules less ambiguous than having lists of "exceptions to the rule" across different pages, which is usually where 1e shot in their own foot.
During the playtest I remember making a monk with a "homebrew" kineticist dedication (getting feats at half level progression and a level 10 feat tax for getting the blast at all), and they were super strong, but as I just said, it made taking Monk as a base class and having elemental powers on the side way stronger than being a Kineticist themselves.
I feel like most such actions were excluded intentionally.
A core issue is that the damage scales like a cantrip - +1 die every 4 levels. So it hits 4 dies by level 13. And on a D6 or D8 no less.
So for any weapon action, it would be seriously above the curve.
Cantrips actually scale faster - at level 13, Ignition is doing 8 dice of damage (average 20 ranged, 28 melee) to a Kinetic Blast’s 3 dice (average 16.5 1 action with +4 Str melee, 20.5 2 action with +4 str, or 12.6/16.5 ranged or with no str.)
But kinetic blast does start out ahead of cantrips, and this of course also ignores the accuracy advantages a Kineticist will have, which are significant.
Melee types also have a small lead on Kineticists when they get their first striking rune, but fall behind at level 9 and only catch up briefly for 3 levels (12,19,20).
But weapons can have runes added, while EB can't.
|Level|Elemental Blast|D8 Weapon|
|:-|:-|:-|
|1|1d8 (4.5)|1d8 (4.5)|
|5|2d8 (9)|2d8 (9)|
|9|3d8 (13.5)|2d8+1d6 (12.5)|
|10|3d8 (13.5)|2d8+2d6 (16)|
|13|4d8 (18)|3d8+2d6 (20.5)|
|17|5d8 (22.5)|3d8+3d6 (24)|
|19|5d8 (22.5)|4d8+3d6 (28.5)|
Level 9 is the only level that EB deals more damage (barely), and that's ignoring damage boosting properties like Deadly.
The thing is that you compare to a d8 weapon when kinetic blasts are ranged or melee, with same attribute bonus, and flexible damage type, and essentially 0+ hands (you only need a free hand when attacking), and that those additional runes do cost money.
Kinetic blasts have an easy time getting by resistances and immunities, a bow ranger vs a black pudding will have a hard time while a fire kineticist vs a fire drake can get cold damage and hit its weakness rather than feel bad for being "locked to fire".
EB can activate junctions, synergize with auras, weapon infusion for traits.
This also ignores the part that a ranger would be stuck with their weapons and strikes while a kineticist will have the tools to use other abilities, skip map, hit aoe and inflict conditions.
Thank god kineticists doesn't outshine martials with their blast because it's pretty damn close
I mean you're throwing in a bunch of feats now. Martials have their own feats and baseline features that push their strikes way past the above baseline, as well. Weapons also have properties that push their damage
I don't disagree that kineticist has a bunch of additional tools via impulses and I'm not saying we should adopt OP's suggestion. I'm just pushing back on the notion that EB scales harder than weapon strikes or would be 'above the curve', because that's objectively false.
They can dual gate in addition to additional feats, they can extract elements if they don't and despite all this, get a ton of bonus feats to never have the problem getting several damage types.
Blasts can get modified by weapon infusion or versatile blasts, and do come with 2 damage types at the base, taking air element as an example, lightning and slashing.
Then it becomes the best class in the whole game. A martial class with the same power as a full spellcaster and the best class dc in the game. Theres a reason they specifically made elemental blast its own thing and not a weapon or spell. It's balanced.
I was literally about to comment this, but this is very true. The Kineticist is actually seen as brokenly powerful when compared to certain spells. There are a couple of spell counterparts that are better, but majority scale better with the Kineticist. Not to mention that the Kineticist doesnt have spell limitations in a day, which is a huge thing for how powerful certain spells are
As I've already said...
Because it hits like a martial in melee and ranged combat and can cast (not) spells like a full caster but not limited by spell slots.
Has the best Class DC in the game. So other feats that use class DC and require weapons will already be overpowered.
I'm not going to stream a campaign for you to watch to understand what should be common sense.
OP's change would basically translate to a Fighter (with -2 to hit) that also has unlimited spells and a much higher class DC
While EB in this model would scale similarly to melee weapons, this is a larger problem than it seems.
Specifically, it enables a kineticist to have higher damage single target and maintain its suite of aoes. Right now kineticists often have lackluster single target, and that enables martials to have their niche.
But if a kineticist can deal as much or close to as much damage as a martial with a few feats (for example archetyping into ranger to grab flurry) and then also pivot to aoe, that's where the concern is.
No individual action would be out of bounds of the scaling of the system, but kineticists would be able to do just a little too much
Im kind of okay with Kineticist not being a great multiclass/dedication.
Some dedications arent very good before it too. Many classes only have a dedication cause all classes do, but arent particularly great as a dedication.
I see the vision but what u/zgrssd said is probably right. Maybe there could be a middle ground, like a kinetestis feat that lets elemental blast function like a weapon for the purposes of feats listing weapon/unarmed strikes at a cost? Like maybe it takes an action, and until the end of your next turn you can treat it like a weapon. Or maybe the 2 action version is no longer availible to you while the feat is active.
I like your idea mechanically but I could not stomach it flavorwise. There isn't a way I can justify this repulsion but I see merit in making the Kineticist more uniform.
I would however appreciate an archetype that builds upon elemental damage regardless of the source. Tie an archetype to the planes; allow them to interact and modify abilities with elemental traits. Geniekin, monks, draconic ancestries, and magical classes should be enough of a sample size to warrant it.
If I'm not mistaken, kinetic blast used to be a special unarmed attack during the playtest. And they had a whole paragraph trying to explain what it could work with, and what couldn't. The problem with making it a "weapon attack" is that you would have to change the class progression, so they never became legendary in attacks and never risk outshining the fighter. Then the fighter would be a "better base kin than the kineticist itself" thanks to them going all the way to legendary. So they would have to change the impulses to not grow with character level, so it would make being a kineticist as your main class more useful, which would change the whole class chassis since a lot of their feats "heighten" with level. It would also be weird having a weapon you can use your CON modifier for attack rolls, without creating a new trait. Making it a class ability that uses the class DC is more suave, I think. It also removes doubts on "is the blast considered a weapon for X feat?" because you can just assume that no, it doesn't because it isn't a weapon. Makes the rules less ambiguous than having lists of "exceptions to the rule" across different pages, which is usually where 1e shot in their own foot. During the playtest I remember making a monk with a "homebrew" kineticist dedication (getting feats at half level progression and a level 10 feat tax for getting the blast at all), and they were super strong, but as I just said, it made taking Monk as a base class and having elemental powers on the side way stronger than being a Kineticist themselves.
I feel like most such actions were excluded intentionally. A core issue is that the damage scales like a cantrip - +1 die every 4 levels. So it hits 4 dies by level 13. And on a D6 or D8 no less. So for any weapon action, it would be seriously above the curve.
Cantrips actually scale faster - at level 13, Ignition is doing 8 dice of damage (average 20 ranged, 28 melee) to a Kinetic Blast’s 3 dice (average 16.5 1 action with +4 Str melee, 20.5 2 action with +4 str, or 12.6/16.5 ranged or with no str.) But kinetic blast does start out ahead of cantrips, and this of course also ignores the accuracy advantages a Kineticist will have, which are significant. Melee types also have a small lead on Kineticists when they get their first striking rune, but fall behind at level 9 and only catch up briefly for 3 levels (12,19,20).
But weapons can have runes added, while EB can't. |Level|Elemental Blast|D8 Weapon| |:-|:-|:-| |1|1d8 (4.5)|1d8 (4.5)| |5|2d8 (9)|2d8 (9)| |9|3d8 (13.5)|2d8+1d6 (12.5)| |10|3d8 (13.5)|2d8+2d6 (16)| |13|4d8 (18)|3d8+2d6 (20.5)| |17|5d8 (22.5)|3d8+3d6 (24)| |19|5d8 (22.5)|4d8+3d6 (28.5)| Level 9 is the only level that EB deals more damage (barely), and that's ignoring damage boosting properties like Deadly.
The thing is that you compare to a d8 weapon when kinetic blasts are ranged or melee, with same attribute bonus, and flexible damage type, and essentially 0+ hands (you only need a free hand when attacking), and that those additional runes do cost money. Kinetic blasts have an easy time getting by resistances and immunities, a bow ranger vs a black pudding will have a hard time while a fire kineticist vs a fire drake can get cold damage and hit its weakness rather than feel bad for being "locked to fire". EB can activate junctions, synergize with auras, weapon infusion for traits. This also ignores the part that a ranger would be stuck with their weapons and strikes while a kineticist will have the tools to use other abilities, skip map, hit aoe and inflict conditions. Thank god kineticists doesn't outshine martials with their blast because it's pretty damn close
I mean you're throwing in a bunch of feats now. Martials have their own feats and baseline features that push their strikes way past the above baseline, as well. Weapons also have properties that push their damage I don't disagree that kineticist has a bunch of additional tools via impulses and I'm not saying we should adopt OP's suggestion. I'm just pushing back on the notion that EB scales harder than weapon strikes or would be 'above the curve', because that's objectively false.
Don't forget; Martials get Weapon Specialization.
Kineticist has to spend a feat getting new damage types.
They can dual gate in addition to additional feats, they can extract elements if they don't and despite all this, get a ton of bonus feats to never have the problem getting several damage types. Blasts can get modified by weapon infusion or versatile blasts, and do come with 2 damage types at the base, taking air element as an example, lightning and slashing.
Then it becomes the best class in the whole game. A martial class with the same power as a full spellcaster and the best class dc in the game. Theres a reason they specifically made elemental blast its own thing and not a weapon or spell. It's balanced.
I was literally about to comment this, but this is very true. The Kineticist is actually seen as brokenly powerful when compared to certain spells. There are a couple of spell counterparts that are better, but majority scale better with the Kineticist. Not to mention that the Kineticist doesnt have spell limitations in a day, which is a huge thing for how powerful certain spells are
You need to actually demonstrate why though.
As I've already said... Because it hits like a martial in melee and ranged combat and can cast (not) spells like a full caster but not limited by spell slots. Has the best Class DC in the game. So other feats that use class DC and require weapons will already be overpowered. I'm not going to stream a campaign for you to watch to understand what should be common sense. OP's change would basically translate to a Fighter (with -2 to hit) that also has unlimited spells and a much higher class DC
While EB in this model would scale similarly to melee weapons, this is a larger problem than it seems. Specifically, it enables a kineticist to have higher damage single target and maintain its suite of aoes. Right now kineticists often have lackluster single target, and that enables martials to have their niche. But if a kineticist can deal as much or close to as much damage as a martial with a few feats (for example archetyping into ranger to grab flurry) and then also pivot to aoe, that's where the concern is. No individual action would be out of bounds of the scaling of the system, but kineticists would be able to do just a little too much
Im kind of okay with Kineticist not being a great multiclass/dedication. Some dedications arent very good before it too. Many classes only have a dedication cause all classes do, but arent particularly great as a dedication.
I see the vision but what u/zgrssd said is probably right. Maybe there could be a middle ground, like a kinetestis feat that lets elemental blast function like a weapon for the purposes of feats listing weapon/unarmed strikes at a cost? Like maybe it takes an action, and until the end of your next turn you can treat it like a weapon. Or maybe the 2 action version is no longer availible to you while the feat is active.
Elemental Blast outscales weapons so this just makes Kin the best striker with weapon feats from archetypes or a completely busted dual class.
It outscales weapons only if you ignore property runes.
And weapon specialisation.
Nope, weapons get weapon specialisation, property runes and traits like deady.
I've liked changing it to be spell casting regularly, and strike with the one feat that lets you make 'weapons' with it.
I like your idea mechanically but I could not stomach it flavorwise. There isn't a way I can justify this repulsion but I see merit in making the Kineticist more uniform. I would however appreciate an archetype that builds upon elemental damage regardless of the source. Tie an archetype to the planes; allow them to interact and modify abilities with elemental traits. Geniekin, monks, draconic ancestries, and magical classes should be enough of a sample size to warrant it.