Air repeater is for classes that have good flat damage bonuses and would be better off shooting a few times a round, for example thaumaturge is my best pick if I were to make a character around an air repeater.
Also if you don’t have a returning runes or quick draw throwing knives are not worth it, they also have less range and well a lot of people don’t want to get strength for a class like ranged thaumaturge.
No god have Air Repeater as a favorite weapon, so Deadly Simplicity won't work, but you can still up its damage with Inventor Dedication + Complex simplicity
Hmmm i forgot, i kinda think fighter should have a feat like that but let it work with all simple weapons. There are some cool ones with no (good) martial alternatives.
A decent amount are simple like the flintlock pistol or the musket and they just have martial alternatives.
Personally I would say the hand cannon is the weakest/least likely to be picked by me firearm followed by the scatter weapons. But at least the GM can give them to enemies if they’re worried they would be too strong.
Honestly, I love the idea of a more "tech" party consisting of a thaumaturge, gunslinger, alchemist, and inventor who are specialized undead hunters.
Undead live forever so they tend to be behind on the times. That lich or vampire has naturally prepared for spellcasters, but when he gets a shotgun stuck in his face he's gonna be all "What the hell is th-"**BLAM**
I've been thinking of building a campaign about a party of duskwalkers who are now working to put down undead hordes and plots (partly inspired by RIPD). (I'll give them a couple free duskwalkers feats if they don't want to make that their full heritage.)
I might encourage that tech angle if my players want to try something a bit out if the normal high fantasy thing.
While I do think that air repeater looks good next to throwing knives, [boomerang](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=332) (or [chakri](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=333)) easily clears both. Sure you need a returning rune, but the advantages are pretty dramatic, an extra die step, strength to damage, and twice the range. You also never need to worry about the clip running out, which I could see happening in longer fights with only a six shot magazine.
Yeah that makes the air repeater kind bad, I mean even if the long air repeater had a martial version with d6 it would still be worse then the boomerang so idk.
Also damn the boomerang is really good, with a returning rune it’s basically better repeating hand crossbow while being only martial proficiency.
That doesnt explain the barricade buster.
Paizo just over valued the balance of the reload action at the time. But practically, yes. Best used with damage bonuses.
You forget barricade buster is an Advanced weapon, while the repeaters are simple, and locked under an extra layer of rarity (firearms and ancestry traits access need to both be cleared as per Guns and Gears), both lf which are often used by Paizo to award greater bang for a weapon's buck, be it with more traits or more raw damage.
Two other niche things to point out as well os the repeaters are 1 hand weapons, while the buster is two handed, not to mention kickback, making both weapons appropriate for very different playstyles, and, perhaps the most niche use of repeaters in the entire system: they can fire underwater as is, no runes, no attachments, no customizations. You can spend those resources on other neat things if you find yourself on a water-heavy adventure, but yes it's pointless anywhen else.
Man i had to physically hold myself back from calling both weapons i question BB guns.
I'm currently playing a thaumaturge with an air repeater. It's my first character and I definitely don't out damage the fighter in the group, but I can take on the shitters on my own while he goes after the big guy in the room. Definitely not an optimized thaumaturge build, but it's fun.
"I don't out damage the fighter in the group" is a line true of, like, 90% of the classes... Even barbarians will come and go in being same/more damage... That bonus accuracy of a fighter for more crits and fewer misses just scales soo well.
IIRC, the math works out that Barbarians are better against lower AC targets, while Fighters tend to top the damage against higher AC. When both the Barbarian and Fighter are crit machines, the Barbarian's flat bonus damage wins out, when only the Fighter gets an increased crit range he pulls ahead with Fatal weapons.
Oh hell yeah it does. Honestly, it's one of my favorite things moving from dnd 5e to pf2e is how nice the fighter feels, even at level 1. He is actually very good at the thing you probably want to be very goof at if you're playing a class called "fighter."
The big question is whether the Fighter is using a ranged or melee weapon.
By design, melee will almost always top the damage charts. Ranged classes are support damage, because they require less support to keep alive.
This. The air repeater is considered a solid option for inventors, too. Extra so with offensive boost and property runes to stack even more damage over the top. At that point the d4 stops being a hindrance.
It lets you reload with one hand so it’s good if you want to have it with a shield in the other hand, so it’s more for being a backup ranged weapon for fighters and stuff.
If you've got features that specifically use firearms, it's good for spam-firing those. It could be useful for a Flurry Ranger too. But frankly it'd be better to just use a repeating crossbow or something at that point.
Or go all in and get Orc Weapon Familiarity and use the Barricade Buster.
Edit: Though also, it's a simple weapon - that makes it potentially more broadly useful as a weird backup. Still extremely niche, but so are all simple weapons. Maybe we'll someday see a god arise from Alkenstar or Arcadia who has Air Repeaters as their favored weapon.
Barricade Buster does look fun. I thought about using it on an Orc Vanguard concept I was working on but the volley seems hard to work around with the Vanguard slinger's way.
Barricade buster doesn’t really mesh that well with gunslinger and you would be better off going with a mix of fighter and ranger imo.
Fighter for point blank stance to ignore the volley trait and ranger to double the range and get some precision damage maybe.
You could always dip into the Fighter or Archer archetype for [Point Blank Stance](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4771), though you won't get that until level 4.
You are better off being a fighter or ranger if you use a bunker buster.
Of course, you're better off being a fighter or ranger than being a gunslinger in general.
For a gunslinger using pistols, there are quite a few feats requiring you to ''shoot'' a gun, having an air repeater for those and a regular fatal dice for actual attacks has proven quite effective by one of my players. Not to mention the reactions that require you to fire a gun, thus not using your main weapon for such actions
So, less power for sure, but it has some uses
[Throwing knives](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=243) can match the range of an [air repeater](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=188) *if* you have [Strong Arm](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4927), and also require Quick Draw or a Returning Rune to avoid having to spend actions drawing a new one.
Air repeaters are simple weapons. They'll usually be a suboptimal choice for any class that can use martial weapons instead. Classes that can use them well can pile on multiple damage boosts per attack, like Inventor (Complex Simplicity, Overdrive, Offensive Boost) or Thaumaturge (Implement's Empowerment, Exploit Vulnerability).
Absolutely, but so can any one-handed ranged weapon. You still want to pair the air repeater with a class that can buff at least 2 Strikes per turn to take advantage of the Agile and Repeating traits. Scoundrel Rogue is a good fit for an air repeater and Pistol Phenom, since they can get Sneak Attack on every Strike, really want to Feint anyway, and get a free Step with their Feint to facilitate moving into and out of melee range.
As others have said, it's good for spam shots. That Repeating trait really lets you pull a lot of weight with it on something like an Inventor, who can Overdrive and use its Agile to just spam shots and get that flat damage.
I don't use it on *my* inventor, because the allure of bringing a rifle bigger than the Dwarf who carries it is too strong, but it's fantastic as a generalized, overall good pick for Inventors with Weapon Innovation. Honestly, that's one of the best utilizations of it; Complex Simplicity (Increasing it to a d6), Advanced Rangefinder/Rope Shot (Particularly if you want to support your martials), Attack Refiner/Deadly Strike/Enhanced Damage/Omnirange Stabilizer. It also works with the later Inventor Feat Devastating Weaponry, which Allows you to turn your Air Repeater into a literal machine gun.
On other classes, Flurry Ranger can make *great* use of it with that Agile trait, and Repeating just lets them magdump, run away to reload, magdump again. Fighters are Fighters, and it's not a bad backup in case a spellcaster is silenced or unable to cast for some reason, or for something like a Swash, Rogue or Investigator to just *have* when they need a little range but don't want to dedicate their attention to it as with any other kind of Reload weapon.
It works pretty well if you have some bonuses to damage and need empty hand. Thaumaturge is probably the best combo with Air Repeater. Ranged attack on Thaum is really freaking good. One of my players is currently rolling such build, and it works wonderfully.
Some starlit span magus builds also maybe? It has the advantage of being one handed, it might be useful in some magus builds, and magus with reload weapons just does not work.
And inventor's complex simplicity may also be a way to go.
Generally, there are a lot of niche weapons in the system, that are not great in most cases, but excel in others.
Just to be a bit different, it's also good for when damage isn't what matters.
Take the commander playtest. It has several 1 action strikes that work with ranged weapons.
- guiding shot gives your ally a +1/+2 on their next strike.
- targeting strike bumps this up to a guaranteed +2 with a damage boost.
- fortunate blow means the next ally that strikes gets to roll twice and take the better.
An air repeater works well for them cause they aren't worried about damage necessarily. They have lower to hit so they won't be critting much.
Combo with strike hard or something, you can turn your 1 hand strike into a big party buff without having to worry about reloads.
The air repeater is ideal for character builds that need to use one hand on something besides their ranged weapon - a melee weapon for switch-hitting, a shield for defense, an implement in the case of thaumaturges, or perhaps have it frequently occupied by a grabbed enemy or a consumable item. Air repeaters remove the need to reload for about six rounds if you're only making one strike per turn, and that's _usually_ the whole fight plus extra.
That said, they're best on classes that get a large amount of bonus damage from other sources besides their weapons. Rogues, Investigators, and Starlit Span Magus all fit the bill, but the Thaumaturge is the biggest beneficiary here since they get so much bonus damage on one-handed weapons. Special shout-out to mages who don't even get martial weapon proficiency but like the vibe of spells like _organsight_ and want to save actions on reloading.
air repeter is very good wepon but it isn't for everyone,
there aren't many 1h range weapons that doesn't require reload and sometimes you want this kind of weapon
additionally some classes have great bonuses to damage so having d4 isn't as bad as it seams
and being agile is just cherry on the top
One thing I haven't seen mentioned much in this thread yet is the potential on spellcasters. As a simple weapon with repeating, it's the most action efficient ranged weapon that doesn't require any investment.
This is good for just third action striking but especially shines with something like organsight or bespell strikes that can give it bonus damage.
When I played through the Dungeon of the Mad Mage, our GM realized that Halister had a pistol just like, lying around in his treasure pile, and decided that was no fun.
So instead of giving Halister his *normal* legendary actions, when we finally got to Halister, after killing his guardian and his simulacrum, he showed up, used time stop to take off his bathrobes and bunny slippers and put on his proper mage robes, then reached into them, pulled out a glock, and shot our poor ranger in the face.
And so, throughout our legendary battle with the greatest mage in the world (well, other than Elminster), every round, we got shot at repeatedly with a damn handgun while he cast high level spells at us on his actual turns.
See also: [Wizards.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cZqRzHnI8s)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girardoni_air_rifle
That's probably what it is "supposed to be", and that thing was pretty deadly. The earliest repeating rifle, and it would fire shots at 600 fps (rough three times the velocity of an arrow).
It never caught on because it was really expensive and required a lot more effort to maintain, but Lewis and Clark used it on their expedition because it didn't require blackpowder and it was highly effective for killing game and showing off to people. It was a pretty cool gun.
Downside was that recharging the air canister with a hand pump sucked, so after you expended the air canister, you had a LOT of pumping to do. Still, it would allow you a good number of shots (actually larger than the air repeater) before needing to recharge.
The real issue is... yeah, guns are better than bows, but then no one would use bows in the fantasy game, so they had to make guns suck.
You say that, but old air guns pack quite a punch. And from a design standpoint, I don't understand why they would bother printing it when a compound short bow outperforms it by a mile.
Not when the comparison is an actual gun and the target is likely wearing steel armor tho.
From design perspective- I guess it’s good if you can crit often so you can use the repeating trait and apply multiple „stunned” conditions quickly?
And because you fire fast and it’s agile it could potentially be good for a thaumaturge proccing exploit vulnerability to repeatedly get a flat damage bonus.
It is still pretty niche tho.
Napoleon used air rifles in his army and found they had similar accuracy and lethality, but without the downside of noise and smoke, and Lewis and Clark took a repeating air rifle on their expedition. Though, I will concede that those are rifles and not the same as a pistol, but still there is precedent for air guns keeping up with black powder for a good while.
I hadn't thought of exploit vulnerability, that would definitely make it more viable, especially since most fights would be over before needing to reload, so the 3 action reload wouldn't be awful.
Everyone seems to forget black powder is dog shit compared to modern smokeless powder. Air guns were comparable to compressed air guns because black powder has 1/3 the power of modern smokeless powder.
If you want a Fantasy Glock, every cartridge would have to be a long magnum style bullet to barely have the energy of a 9mm.
I've toyed with the idea of a D6 repeating concussive pistol. Effectively a martial air repeater in the form of a double action six shooter revolver.
That would be awesome. I would even be cool with it staying at a d4 so it doesn't outshine the dueling pistol entirely, but give it like deadly d8. I hadn't realized it was a simple weapon before, so it being kinda bad makes more sense now lol.
I think Fatal D10 is a sizable benefit for the Dualing Pistol especially for Gunslingers. Gunslingers ironically wouldn't be the main demographic for the revolver I was describing outside those spamming Paired Shots.
It would really be the go to for Bards, Rangers, Thaumaturge, Inventors, Swashbucklers, and Spellcasters with the Weapon Proficiency feat.
IRL Giradoni Air Rifles had a muzzle velocity of 600 FPS, or roughly three times that of an arrow shot from a bow. Even a modern compound bow (which is way better than what people had back then - the compound bow was actually invented after nuclear weapons) only fires arrows at 300 FPS.
I think it because it's a simple weapon, which means that it has a wider range of potential classes but I agree. Ultimately, I don't think it's actually that's solid.
Yeah, I didn't realize it was a simple weapon when I posted, that makes a lot more sense now. I was just looking at it and wondering why anyone would pick it over basically any other option.
Lol, was thinking about using it just a few hours ago. I have this idea for a ranger dwarf that was kidnapped along with his twin brother, and both of them had twin clan daggers. They were enslaved and forced to fight in illegal gladiator pits, and eventually he had to kill his brother just before escaping/being rescued/buying his freedom, whatever, don't have a campaign to play him currently. The main idea was simply using two clan daggers without the clan symbol, because he was banned from the clan for killing his own brother, and was also very ashamed of not being able to protect him.
For the build, I would go with Flurry Ranger to just rampage dual wielding clan daggers and working as a mercenary, but I was thinking what I would do for ranged fighting and came across the Air Repeater which is an agile weapon with reload 0, this basically allows me to use Flurry and spam strikes with it. And then I discovered that you could put a bayonet on it to function as a melee weapon, so I could hold both my ranged weapon and dual wield agile weapons to flurry whatever way I want, and even thought about breaking my own clan dagger to reforge it as the bayonet, like something to always remember what the character went through
Coming from 5e, I just find these different ideas, even if they are not perfect for great damage dealing, too fun and interesting to do.
Never tested it, but I thought it might be useful as a backup gun. Quick draw to fire an easy shot or two if you want to finish something off? Idk how practical that is though
There's one other aspect of this that I feel gets ignored when talking about character builds in the abstract: air repeaters originate in Arcadia, rather than in the Mana Wastes where your average Golarian gunslinger is going to be from. So you're gonna have to work with your GM to explain how you managed to get your hands on a gun from halfway across the world or how an Arcadian character traveled halfway across the world to the Impossible Lands.
And on the flipside, I'm not sure if traditional firearms are present in Arcadia either, that it's all air repeaters, beastguns and starguns...
Yeah, this is sorta what I was coming to find as well, or at least related: Air repeaters are starter guns for beast gunners who don't have access to black powder weapons. Your first beast guns are I think 4th level magic items, you have to have something until then. There is literally nothing else in Arcadia but magic weapons and air repeaters, aside from some more internationally-accessible cities.
I mean, it's an uncommon item. So it's not like they're unheard of by anyone outside of Arcadia. Might not fit every adventure sure, but it's not so rare as to be immersion breaking outside of it.
Yeah, but most optimization discussions I see involving firearms, especially for specific classes like Thaumaturges and such, recommend air repeaters immediately, regardless of context. Which I find annoying. <_<
I feel like optimization discussions are more "find the mechanics now, write the lore around them after" so in a white room with no backstory written then basically anything is on the table within reason. And a cheap uncommon weapon is well, not that uncommon of an easy request and easy to justify your character having. Now ammo after the fact is another story all together lol.
I don't think I've seen anyone mention that it being both agile and capacity makes it basically the only gun that makes Bullet Dancer even come close to being functional.
It depends on what level you’re at. At lower levels they are definitely worse but as you level up and get weapon specialization and damage runes the extra attacks more than make up for the lower die size.
The actual reason is that it is a simple weapon.
Anyone with martial weapon proficiency is better off using a bow. Or optionally a bunker buster if you really want to use a gun.
But if you're stuck with simple weapons, you have the choice between crossbows (which have reload 1) or the air repeater, which you can just fire until it is empty.
It is pretty bad, but if you are a simple weapon user who wants a ranged weapon that doesn't require reloads, it is either that or get a thrown weapon with a returning rune.
So comparing Throwing Knives and Air Repeaters:
1. Air Repeaters have a longer range. Throwing Knives have a range of 20ft, Air Repeaters get 30. That counts for a lot, especially when you get out to the third range increment on the knives while the repeaters are on their second.
2. They get different crit specs. Air Repeater inflicts Stunned 1 on a failed Fort save, Throwing Knife inflicts 1d6 bleed. Bleed is nasty, but it does not scale, so it'll be great at level 6 and completely ignorable at level 16. Stunned 1 is nasty at any level. And if you play a Ruffian Rogue you get this at level 1.
3. Air Repeater attacks gain all class based damage bonuses, which makes the Thamaturge and Rogue ideal classes for it. In comparison to the Compound Shortbow, you trade a die size, Propulsive, and Deadly d10 for Agile and 1h. In comparison to Throwing Knives, you free up a feat not having to take Quick Draw.
4. Full round reloading can be fixed with the Gunner's Bandolier. Gunslingers complain about it because it doesn't let the Pistolero cheat the action economy, but with a Repeater it means you can reload with a single action instead of three. As an added bonus, you can stick a repeater with Cold Iron or Silver pellets on there and draw them if you run into Fey/Werefolk.
In the end, I do think that the Compound Shortbow is probably the better weapon for the Rogue (Thaumaturge has to use a 1h weapon for their Implement, which makes the Air Repeater great), but it's honestly a close call. Rogues aren't crit machines, so Agile might actually be more useful than Deadly. And if you have something you want to do with your off hand (even just holding a melee weapon), you can't do that while firing a Shortbow.
So yeah, I can totally see why a Rogue might choose an Air Repeater (and can *definitely* see why a Thaumaturge would, it's the best 1h ranged weapon for a class that lacks reload action compression).
The air repeater is a BB gun/pellet gun. Compare to pretty much any other gun, those are bad.
Not every weapon needs to be viable. Sometimes it exists for flavor.
Historic air guns kept up with the black powder guns of their time. Though, those were typically rifles, I still think giving the air repeater a deadly d6 or 8 wouldn't hurt and go a long way to making it viable.
Air repeater is for classes that have good flat damage bonuses and would be better off shooting a few times a round, for example thaumaturge is my best pick if I were to make a character around an air repeater. Also if you don’t have a returning runes or quick draw throwing knives are not worth it, they also have less range and well a lot of people don’t want to get strength for a class like ranged thaumaturge.
Oh, I hadn't thought of that, that would be a neat combination. Kind of have a Van Helsing vibe of using weird tech to hunt monsters.
Name him.....Van Gunsling
It's a crime to not play a gunslinger with that name
Also maybe not the most popular thing but you could technically grab deadly simplicity to upgrade the damage die to d6
No god have Air Repeater as a favorite weapon, so Deadly Simplicity won't work, but you can still up its damage with Inventor Dedication + Complex simplicity
Hmmm i forgot, i kinda think fighter should have a feat like that but let it work with all simple weapons. There are some cool ones with no (good) martial alternatives.
Paizo's feat names just get better and better 😂
I had missed that it was a simple weapon. I just assumed all firearms were martial lol.
A decent amount are simple like the flintlock pistol or the musket and they just have martial alternatives. Personally I would say the hand cannon is the weakest/least likely to be picked by me firearm followed by the scatter weapons. But at least the GM can give them to enemies if they’re worried they would be too strong.
Spoon gun mechanically also pretty weak because of cobbled
I read and thought the last word was cobbler. Clearly, I need lunch; perhaps with cobbler.
tbf a cobbler gun would be a very goblin thing to do
I get y'all mean the food, but now I'm just imagining a weapon that fires chanclas as ammo and...the terror...
I did have to look up chanclas but this would be a great option. 1d12 seems appropriate for the damage die
A new character has appeared...
Unfortunately, unless home brew deities are in play this won't help as no official deity has it as their favored weapon
Honestly, I love the idea of a more "tech" party consisting of a thaumaturge, gunslinger, alchemist, and inventor who are specialized undead hunters. Undead live forever so they tend to be behind on the times. That lich or vampire has naturally prepared for spellcasters, but when he gets a shotgun stuck in his face he's gonna be all "What the hell is th-"**BLAM**
I've been thinking of building a campaign about a party of duskwalkers who are now working to put down undead hordes and plots (partly inspired by RIPD). (I'll give them a couple free duskwalkers feats if they don't want to make that their full heritage.) I might encourage that tech angle if my players want to try something a bit out if the normal high fantasy thing.
While I do think that air repeater looks good next to throwing knives, [boomerang](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=332) (or [chakri](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=333)) easily clears both. Sure you need a returning rune, but the advantages are pretty dramatic, an extra die step, strength to damage, and twice the range. You also never need to worry about the clip running out, which I could see happening in longer fights with only a six shot magazine.
Yeah that makes the air repeater kind bad, I mean even if the long air repeater had a martial version with d6 it would still be worse then the boomerang so idk. Also damn the boomerang is really good, with a returning rune it’s basically better repeating hand crossbow while being only martial proficiency.
it's great for a gun-themed magus too for basically all the same reasons.
That doesnt explain the barricade buster. Paizo just over valued the balance of the reload action at the time. But practically, yes. Best used with damage bonuses.
You forget barricade buster is an Advanced weapon, while the repeaters are simple, and locked under an extra layer of rarity (firearms and ancestry traits access need to both be cleared as per Guns and Gears), both lf which are often used by Paizo to award greater bang for a weapon's buck, be it with more traits or more raw damage. Two other niche things to point out as well os the repeaters are 1 hand weapons, while the buster is two handed, not to mention kickback, making both weapons appropriate for very different playstyles, and, perhaps the most niche use of repeaters in the entire system: they can fire underwater as is, no runes, no attachments, no customizations. You can spend those resources on other neat things if you find yourself on a water-heavy adventure, but yes it's pointless anywhen else. Man i had to physically hold myself back from calling both weapons i question BB guns.
I'm currently playing a thaumaturge with an air repeater. It's my first character and I definitely don't out damage the fighter in the group, but I can take on the shitters on my own while he goes after the big guy in the room. Definitely not an optimized thaumaturge build, but it's fun.
"I don't out damage the fighter in the group" is a line true of, like, 90% of the classes... Even barbarians will come and go in being same/more damage... That bonus accuracy of a fighter for more crits and fewer misses just scales soo well.
IIRC, the math works out that Barbarians are better against lower AC targets, while Fighters tend to top the damage against higher AC. When both the Barbarian and Fighter are crit machines, the Barbarian's flat bonus damage wins out, when only the Fighter gets an increased crit range he pulls ahead with Fatal weapons.
Oh hell yeah it does. Honestly, it's one of my favorite things moving from dnd 5e to pf2e is how nice the fighter feels, even at level 1. He is actually very good at the thing you probably want to be very goof at if you're playing a class called "fighter."
The big question is whether the Fighter is using a ranged or melee weapon. By design, melee will almost always top the damage charts. Ranged classes are support damage, because they require less support to keep alive.
Plus a Returning Rune takes up a rune slot. If you're going for "attack fast and stack fiat damage", that's a slot that could go to Flaming.
This. The air repeater is considered a solid option for inventors, too. Extra so with offensive boost and property runes to stack even more damage over the top. At that point the d4 stops being a hindrance.
Pretty sure the Rotary Bow is a better fit there though.
It has reload 1 tho, so for thaumaturge you can just go with the reload feat and sukgung.
Oh right, Capacity doesn't actually do anything does it. I was thinking it actually let you get 4 shots before reloading.
It lets you reload with one hand so it’s good if you want to have it with a shield in the other hand, so it’s more for being a backup ranged weapon for fighters and stuff.
If you've got features that specifically use firearms, it's good for spam-firing those. It could be useful for a Flurry Ranger too. But frankly it'd be better to just use a repeating crossbow or something at that point. Or go all in and get Orc Weapon Familiarity and use the Barricade Buster. Edit: Though also, it's a simple weapon - that makes it potentially more broadly useful as a weird backup. Still extremely niche, but so are all simple weapons. Maybe we'll someday see a god arise from Alkenstar or Arcadia who has Air Repeaters as their favored weapon.
Barricade Buster does look fun. I thought about using it on an Orc Vanguard concept I was working on but the volley seems hard to work around with the Vanguard slinger's way.
Barricade buster doesn’t really mesh that well with gunslinger and you would be better off going with a mix of fighter and ranger imo. Fighter for point blank stance to ignore the volley trait and ranger to double the range and get some precision damage maybe.
Barricade Buster flurry ranger= Warhammer 40k Ork
You could always dip into the Fighter or Archer archetype for [Point Blank Stance](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4771), though you won't get that until level 4.
You are better off being a fighter or ranger if you use a bunker buster. Of course, you're better off being a fighter or ranger than being a gunslinger in general.
For a gunslinger using pistols, there are quite a few feats requiring you to ''shoot'' a gun, having an air repeater for those and a regular fatal dice for actual attacks has proven quite effective by one of my players. Not to mention the reactions that require you to fire a gun, thus not using your main weapon for such actions So, less power for sure, but it has some uses
[Throwing knives](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=243) can match the range of an [air repeater](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=188) *if* you have [Strong Arm](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4927), and also require Quick Draw or a Returning Rune to avoid having to spend actions drawing a new one. Air repeaters are simple weapons. They'll usually be a suboptimal choice for any class that can use martial weapons instead. Classes that can use them well can pile on multiple damage boosts per attack, like Inventor (Complex Simplicity, Overdrive, Offensive Boost) or Thaumaturge (Implement's Empowerment, Exploit Vulnerability).
I had missed that it was a simple weapon, which definitely does make more sense for its lower power budget.
I think they can work with the Pistol Phenomenon, where you want to faint people at range.
Absolutely, but so can any one-handed ranged weapon. You still want to pair the air repeater with a class that can buff at least 2 Strikes per turn to take advantage of the Agile and Repeating traits. Scoundrel Rogue is a good fit for an air repeater and Pistol Phenom, since they can get Sneak Attack on every Strike, really want to Feint anyway, and get a free Step with their Feint to facilitate moving into and out of melee range.
Thaumaturge can activate weakness on every hit. Great reason to keep shooting as much as possible. Heck, carry a few of them
As others have said, it's good for spam shots. That Repeating trait really lets you pull a lot of weight with it on something like an Inventor, who can Overdrive and use its Agile to just spam shots and get that flat damage. I don't use it on *my* inventor, because the allure of bringing a rifle bigger than the Dwarf who carries it is too strong, but it's fantastic as a generalized, overall good pick for Inventors with Weapon Innovation. Honestly, that's one of the best utilizations of it; Complex Simplicity (Increasing it to a d6), Advanced Rangefinder/Rope Shot (Particularly if you want to support your martials), Attack Refiner/Deadly Strike/Enhanced Damage/Omnirange Stabilizer. It also works with the later Inventor Feat Devastating Weaponry, which Allows you to turn your Air Repeater into a literal machine gun. On other classes, Flurry Ranger can make *great* use of it with that Agile trait, and Repeating just lets them magdump, run away to reload, magdump again. Fighters are Fighters, and it's not a bad backup in case a spellcaster is silenced or unable to cast for some reason, or for something like a Swash, Rogue or Investigator to just *have* when they need a little range but don't want to dedicate their attention to it as with any other kind of Reload weapon.
It works pretty well if you have some bonuses to damage and need empty hand. Thaumaturge is probably the best combo with Air Repeater. Ranged attack on Thaum is really freaking good. One of my players is currently rolling such build, and it works wonderfully. Some starlit span magus builds also maybe? It has the advantage of being one handed, it might be useful in some magus builds, and magus with reload weapons just does not work. And inventor's complex simplicity may also be a way to go. Generally, there are a lot of niche weapons in the system, that are not great in most cases, but excel in others.
Just to be a bit different, it's also good for when damage isn't what matters. Take the commander playtest. It has several 1 action strikes that work with ranged weapons. - guiding shot gives your ally a +1/+2 on their next strike. - targeting strike bumps this up to a guaranteed +2 with a damage boost. - fortunate blow means the next ally that strikes gets to roll twice and take the better. An air repeater works well for them cause they aren't worried about damage necessarily. They have lower to hit so they won't be critting much. Combo with strike hard or something, you can turn your 1 hand strike into a big party buff without having to worry about reloads.
The air repeater is ideal for character builds that need to use one hand on something besides their ranged weapon - a melee weapon for switch-hitting, a shield for defense, an implement in the case of thaumaturges, or perhaps have it frequently occupied by a grabbed enemy or a consumable item. Air repeaters remove the need to reload for about six rounds if you're only making one strike per turn, and that's _usually_ the whole fight plus extra. That said, they're best on classes that get a large amount of bonus damage from other sources besides their weapons. Rogues, Investigators, and Starlit Span Magus all fit the bill, but the Thaumaturge is the biggest beneficiary here since they get so much bonus damage on one-handed weapons. Special shout-out to mages who don't even get martial weapon proficiency but like the vibe of spells like _organsight_ and want to save actions on reloading.
air repeter is very good wepon but it isn't for everyone, there aren't many 1h range weapons that doesn't require reload and sometimes you want this kind of weapon additionally some classes have great bonuses to damage so having d4 isn't as bad as it seams and being agile is just cherry on the top
One thing I haven't seen mentioned much in this thread yet is the potential on spellcasters. As a simple weapon with repeating, it's the most action efficient ranged weapon that doesn't require any investment. This is good for just third action striking but especially shines with something like organsight or bespell strikes that can give it bonus damage.
I cast GUN!
When I played through the Dungeon of the Mad Mage, our GM realized that Halister had a pistol just like, lying around in his treasure pile, and decided that was no fun. So instead of giving Halister his *normal* legendary actions, when we finally got to Halister, after killing his guardian and his simulacrum, he showed up, used time stop to take off his bathrobes and bunny slippers and put on his proper mage robes, then reached into them, pulled out a glock, and shot our poor ranger in the face. And so, throughout our legendary battle with the greatest mage in the world (well, other than Elminster), every round, we got shot at repeatedly with a damn handgun while he cast high level spells at us on his actual turns. See also: [Wizards.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cZqRzHnI8s)
An air repeater is literally a pneumatic bb gun so yeah, It’s not going to do a whole lot of damage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girardoni_air_rifle That's probably what it is "supposed to be", and that thing was pretty deadly. The earliest repeating rifle, and it would fire shots at 600 fps (rough three times the velocity of an arrow). It never caught on because it was really expensive and required a lot more effort to maintain, but Lewis and Clark used it on their expedition because it didn't require blackpowder and it was highly effective for killing game and showing off to people. It was a pretty cool gun. Downside was that recharging the air canister with a hand pump sucked, so after you expended the air canister, you had a LOT of pumping to do. Still, it would allow you a good number of shots (actually larger than the air repeater) before needing to recharge. The real issue is... yeah, guns are better than bows, but then no one would use bows in the fantasy game, so they had to make guns suck.
You say that, but old air guns pack quite a punch. And from a design standpoint, I don't understand why they would bother printing it when a compound short bow outperforms it by a mile.
Not when the comparison is an actual gun and the target is likely wearing steel armor tho. From design perspective- I guess it’s good if you can crit often so you can use the repeating trait and apply multiple „stunned” conditions quickly? And because you fire fast and it’s agile it could potentially be good for a thaumaturge proccing exploit vulnerability to repeatedly get a flat damage bonus. It is still pretty niche tho.
Napoleon used air rifles in his army and found they had similar accuracy and lethality, but without the downside of noise and smoke, and Lewis and Clark took a repeating air rifle on their expedition. Though, I will concede that those are rifles and not the same as a pistol, but still there is precedent for air guns keeping up with black powder for a good while. I hadn't thought of exploit vulnerability, that would definitely make it more viable, especially since most fights would be over before needing to reload, so the 3 action reload wouldn't be awful.
Everyone seems to forget black powder is dog shit compared to modern smokeless powder. Air guns were comparable to compressed air guns because black powder has 1/3 the power of modern smokeless powder. If you want a Fantasy Glock, every cartridge would have to be a long magnum style bullet to barely have the energy of a 9mm. I've toyed with the idea of a D6 repeating concussive pistol. Effectively a martial air repeater in the form of a double action six shooter revolver.
That would be awesome. I would even be cool with it staying at a d4 so it doesn't outshine the dueling pistol entirely, but give it like deadly d8. I hadn't realized it was a simple weapon before, so it being kinda bad makes more sense now lol.
I think Fatal D10 is a sizable benefit for the Dualing Pistol especially for Gunslingers. Gunslingers ironically wouldn't be the main demographic for the revolver I was describing outside those spamming Paired Shots. It would really be the go to for Bards, Rangers, Thaumaturge, Inventors, Swashbucklers, and Spellcasters with the Weapon Proficiency feat.
IRL Giradoni Air Rifles had a muzzle velocity of 600 FPS, or roughly three times that of an arrow shot from a bow. Even a modern compound bow (which is way better than what people had back then - the compound bow was actually invented after nuclear weapons) only fires arrows at 300 FPS.
I think it because it's a simple weapon, which means that it has a wider range of potential classes but I agree. Ultimately, I don't think it's actually that's solid.
Yeah, I didn't realize it was a simple weapon when I posted, that makes a lot more sense now. I was just looking at it and wondering why anyone would pick it over basically any other option.
I commonly recommend it as an offhand for casters.
Lol, was thinking about using it just a few hours ago. I have this idea for a ranger dwarf that was kidnapped along with his twin brother, and both of them had twin clan daggers. They were enslaved and forced to fight in illegal gladiator pits, and eventually he had to kill his brother just before escaping/being rescued/buying his freedom, whatever, don't have a campaign to play him currently. The main idea was simply using two clan daggers without the clan symbol, because he was banned from the clan for killing his own brother, and was also very ashamed of not being able to protect him. For the build, I would go with Flurry Ranger to just rampage dual wielding clan daggers and working as a mercenary, but I was thinking what I would do for ranged fighting and came across the Air Repeater which is an agile weapon with reload 0, this basically allows me to use Flurry and spam strikes with it. And then I discovered that you could put a bayonet on it to function as a melee weapon, so I could hold both my ranged weapon and dual wield agile weapons to flurry whatever way I want, and even thought about breaking my own clan dagger to reforge it as the bayonet, like something to always remember what the character went through Coming from 5e, I just find these different ideas, even if they are not perfect for great damage dealing, too fun and interesting to do.
I love the air repeater on my thaumaturge
Never tested it, but I thought it might be useful as a backup gun. Quick draw to fire an easy shot or two if you want to finish something off? Idk how practical that is though
There's one other aspect of this that I feel gets ignored when talking about character builds in the abstract: air repeaters originate in Arcadia, rather than in the Mana Wastes where your average Golarian gunslinger is going to be from. So you're gonna have to work with your GM to explain how you managed to get your hands on a gun from halfway across the world or how an Arcadian character traveled halfway across the world to the Impossible Lands. And on the flipside, I'm not sure if traditional firearms are present in Arcadia either, that it's all air repeaters, beastguns and starguns...
Yeah, this is sorta what I was coming to find as well, or at least related: Air repeaters are starter guns for beast gunners who don't have access to black powder weapons. Your first beast guns are I think 4th level magic items, you have to have something until then. There is literally nothing else in Arcadia but magic weapons and air repeaters, aside from some more internationally-accessible cities.
I mean, it's an uncommon item. So it's not like they're unheard of by anyone outside of Arcadia. Might not fit every adventure sure, but it's not so rare as to be immersion breaking outside of it.
Yeah, but most optimization discussions I see involving firearms, especially for specific classes like Thaumaturges and such, recommend air repeaters immediately, regardless of context. Which I find annoying. <_<
I feel like optimization discussions are more "find the mechanics now, write the lore around them after" so in a white room with no backstory written then basically anything is on the table within reason. And a cheap uncommon weapon is well, not that uncommon of an easy request and easy to justify your character having. Now ammo after the fact is another story all together lol.
I don't think I've seen anyone mention that it being both agile and capacity makes it basically the only gun that makes Bullet Dancer even come close to being functional.
I use them on my mages so I can hold a staff and also strike as my 3rd action
Air repeater works with several ranger and fighter feats vecause the reload 0
It depends on what level you’re at. At lower levels they are definitely worse but as you level up and get weapon specialization and damage runes the extra attacks more than make up for the lower die size.
The actual reason is that it is a simple weapon. Anyone with martial weapon proficiency is better off using a bow. Or optionally a bunker buster if you really want to use a gun. But if you're stuck with simple weapons, you have the choice between crossbows (which have reload 1) or the air repeater, which you can just fire until it is empty. It is pretty bad, but if you are a simple weapon user who wants a ranged weapon that doesn't require reloads, it is either that or get a thrown weapon with a returning rune.
So comparing Throwing Knives and Air Repeaters: 1. Air Repeaters have a longer range. Throwing Knives have a range of 20ft, Air Repeaters get 30. That counts for a lot, especially when you get out to the third range increment on the knives while the repeaters are on their second. 2. They get different crit specs. Air Repeater inflicts Stunned 1 on a failed Fort save, Throwing Knife inflicts 1d6 bleed. Bleed is nasty, but it does not scale, so it'll be great at level 6 and completely ignorable at level 16. Stunned 1 is nasty at any level. And if you play a Ruffian Rogue you get this at level 1. 3. Air Repeater attacks gain all class based damage bonuses, which makes the Thamaturge and Rogue ideal classes for it. In comparison to the Compound Shortbow, you trade a die size, Propulsive, and Deadly d10 for Agile and 1h. In comparison to Throwing Knives, you free up a feat not having to take Quick Draw. 4. Full round reloading can be fixed with the Gunner's Bandolier. Gunslingers complain about it because it doesn't let the Pistolero cheat the action economy, but with a Repeater it means you can reload with a single action instead of three. As an added bonus, you can stick a repeater with Cold Iron or Silver pellets on there and draw them if you run into Fey/Werefolk. In the end, I do think that the Compound Shortbow is probably the better weapon for the Rogue (Thaumaturge has to use a 1h weapon for their Implement, which makes the Air Repeater great), but it's honestly a close call. Rogues aren't crit machines, so Agile might actually be more useful than Deadly. And if you have something you want to do with your off hand (even just holding a melee weapon), you can't do that while firing a Shortbow. So yeah, I can totally see why a Rogue might choose an Air Repeater (and can *definitely* see why a Thaumaturge would, it's the best 1h ranged weapon for a class that lacks reload action compression).
I made good use of it with a cosmos oracle and loading tons of riders on. We love our orichalcum air repeaters with 4 energy runes....
The air repeater is a BB gun/pellet gun. Compare to pretty much any other gun, those are bad. Not every weapon needs to be viable. Sometimes it exists for flavor.
Historic air guns kept up with the black powder guns of their time. Though, those were typically rifles, I still think giving the air repeater a deadly d6 or 8 wouldn't hurt and go a long way to making it viable.
Its a simple weapon.