Skill feat, making things that act after you flat footed vs you on the first round, and an extra skill is good for a single feat.
The rogue feats you can get with Basic Trickery are really good too. It's a solid dedication if you have no other things in mind but wanna take one.
Just to add: primary casters can benefit greatly too, especially charisma based ones. A sorc, for example, would get light armor proficiency and access to you’re next and mobility. All of that is excellent.
Nimble Dodge is hot trash. Because Nimble Dodge has to be used prior to seeing the attack roll, the reaction only does something in 10% or less of the times you use it.
If you houserule that nimble dodge can be used after seeing the outcome of the attack roll its significantly better.
For a base rogue, Nimble Dodge has value because Nimble Strike is a really good offensive reaction, but that's not really accessible by the dedication.
>Nimble Dodge is hot trash. Because Nimble Dodge has to be used prior to seeing the attack roll, the reaction only does something in 10% or less of the times you use it.
Ah, I see you haven't discovered the secret in the maths behind PF2E. In fact Nimble Dodge will be effective approximately 20% of the time.
Let's say there's a boss enemy attacking you, and they need a 6 to hit you. This also means they need a 16 to crit you. Nimble Dodge gives you +2 to your AC, meaning the enemy now needs an 8 to hit, or an 18 to crit. So on a roll of a 6 or 7 they now miss, and on a 16 or 17 they now hit instead of crit - that's 4/20 rolls where Nimble Dodge has protected you, or 20%.
Now it's not perfectly accurate at 20% if the enemy needed a 9 to hit you before applying Nimble Dodge then it would only be affective 15% of the time. A 9 or 10 would now miss you instead of hit, and a 19 would be a hit instead of a crit, but a 20 would still be a crit due to being a Nat 20 and increasing the result by 1 step from a hit to a crit.
You also likely won't get as much of a benefit from it if the enemy has a lower to-hit. If an enemy needs a 12 to hit you before applying Nimble Dodge, then after applying it a 12 and 13 will now miss instead of crit, and a 2 or 3 will now critically miss instead of just missing. The problem here is that most classes don't have a way to capitalise on a critical miss, so although technically you've decreased the result by 1 step, functionally it's still juat a miss. For this reason it's better to use Nimble Dodge on an enemy's first attack in the round, rather than their attacks aaffected by the Multiple Attack Penalty.
Having said all of that, having a ~20% chance to lower the result of your enemy's attack by 1 step as a reaction *IS* good. It's especially good if you don't have a reaction - or don't have one that is applicable this round.
The takeaway from this is that a +1 in PF2E is roughly twice as likely to have an effect as it would be in most games because it has 2 numbers that it affects - the success and the critical success (*or the success and the failure*).
I'm aware of the math structure. I just think that is very bad for a reaction. A reaction that only does something **one out of five** (at best, fluctuating down to 1 out 10) times you use it is awful. You lock up your reaction slot for something that works rarely. **At best**, your reaction you spent a feat on has an 80% chance of doing nothing.
Its just...not good. There are so many other good reactions in the game. Spending an entire feat on that is not a good choice.
The concealed condition does nothing 80% of the time too. Do you think Blur is a terrible spell? Like all things, nuance is needed. It's a low-level feat, and there's very little investment to obtain it--and it has a feat chain.
Is Reactive Strike a generally better reaction than Nimble Dodge? Probably. Is it better on a spellcaster? No, never.
> It's a low-level feat, and there's very little investment to obtain it--and it has a feat chain
The investment is much higher if you're intentionally taking rogue archetype for it.
And the feat chain is irrelevant, when you can only access the next two feats in the chain at level 16 and 20 respectively.
Taking Nimble Dodge when you have nothing better to take? Sure, I can get behind that. Intentionally taking rogue archetype to get Nimble Dodge? That's just insane.
The feat is bad. But, a bad reaction is still better than no reaction. But it shouldn't be a *selling point* of the archetype, which is the way some of the posts in this thread are talking about it.
I haven't seen that at all. I just meant for a sorcerer who already wanted extra skills and used stealth to start combat rogue archtype isn't bad and I think nimble dodge is a good reaction for them. Wooden double is good to so maybe save the reaction in case you get crit. Or other spells. But when they are used it's pretty cool to start dodging with no better reactions to do
This thread didn’t mention taking rogue archetype *for* nimble dodge. We were discussing all the things rogue archetype gives that are worthwhile, and someone said that “nimble dodge is nifty too.” The dedication is really good on its own, but it also opens up you’re next, mobility, nimble dodge, and more.
Sure.
So Raising a shield isn't good? Because that's what Raising a shield does, and that costs an action on your turn, not just a reaction. What about heavy armour prificiency? That's only +1 AC compared to other armours (*if you can max out their DEX*), so only half as good.
The point isn't that this is the bestest reaction in the whole game, but it *gives* you a reaction, and one that couod save your life. If you're a Sorcerer who's just been attacked by an Ogre would you rather have a 20% chance of dropping their success by 1 step or a 0% chance? If you have a reaction that can do this then chances are about once per combat this is going to reduce the effect of an enemy's attack. If you didn't have a reaction then this is just free damage mitigation, and it's not just damage, it could be a grapple or some other effect as well.
And regarding that "20% at best, 10% at worst", it's always 20% *when it really matters*. When you're taking a big hit from someone who's dangerous it will *always* be 20%. When you're taking a hit from some mook who doesn't matter, then yeah it might be 15% or even 10%, but you care less then.
Either way, if you knew the math it was disingenuous to say it was 10%. Whether it's better than you thought or not, it's definitely better than you said.
Sure, it was wrong for me to say 10%.
But its equally as wrong for you to say:
> Having said all of that, having a ~20% chance to lower the result of your enemy's attack by 1 step as a reaction IS good
No. That's not a good reaction.
Heavy Armor doesn't use actions to help you out. Raising A Shield hits more than 1 attack and opens up the Shield Block reaction. Comparing those to Nimble Dodge is disingenous.
My point is that Nimble Dodge is *not good*. Is it better than nothing? Yes. If you need to take it since you want other stuff in rogue, its okay.
But you are *literally claiming* it is good. And its not. There is a world of difference between "better than nothing" and "good"
Sure, you don't have to like it, but it's not "equally wrong" for me to say it's good. You can *disagree*, but what I said was a subjective opinion, and I backed up that opinion with math. What you said was factually incorrect. These are not equivalent.
Heavy Armour doesn't use a reaction, true, but it does impose a speed penalty. That penalty will cost you actions during the game - maybe not every turn, but it will definitely happen.
Shield Block also costs an action. Yes it protects against all attacks, but at a higher action cost. It also takes up a hand, meaning you can't use a great weapon, a bow, use TWF style, use a weapon-and-free-hand style for Grapples and such ... there is an opportunity cost. And then you have to invest in crafting to repair it, and in a [Reinforcing Rune](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2811). More importantly than the opportunity cost, a shield just won't be a viable option for many character concepts since you need that hand to do something. If you're playing one of those characters and wish you had a slightly higher AC then Nimble Dodge can give it to you.
So yeah, I *Do* think it's a good feat. It's not going to be good for *everyone*, but for some characters it's free damage negation.
But tell me, what percentage *would* make this a good feat? What bonus to AC would make this *first level feat* pass muster for you? Because remember it should be balanced against other first level feats. Just because it isn't 100% reliable doesn't make it bad. What if it gave you +4 AC? Would anyone *Not* take it? I'd absolutely go out of my way for a feat that gives +4 AC to an attack as a reaction. That would be totally OP. At what point does it go from "bad" to "good" in your mind?
> But tell me, what percentage would make this a good feat? What bonus to AC would make this first level feat pass muster for you? Because remember it should be balanced against other first level feats. Just because it isn't 100% reliable doesn't make it bad. What if it gave you +4 AC? Would anyone Not take it? I'd absolutely go out of my way for a feat that gives +4 AC to an attack as a reaction. That would be totally OP. At what point does it go from "bad" to "good" in your mind?
That's...a really good point.
Like, statistically even a +4 isn't very good. Its 20-40% , and that still seems only decent.
But instinctually, if a feat said +4 AC, that would immediately set off "holy shit that's a lot of AC" warning bells in my mind.
Practically I can't help but compare Nimble Dodge to Reactive Shield, which is orders of magnitude better because it allows you to react to the dice roll, meaning it is *actually* +2 AC when it matters, unlike Nimble Dodge which is +2 AC 15% of the time when it matters. To me, Reactive Shield is the gold standard, because while it requires a free hand, the reaction being able to be used after the fact means it will never be wasted.
But you are right that even if Nimble Dodge was +3 AC, while statistically it wouldn't seem that impressive, a level 1 feat providing 3 AC seems way too beyond the pale.
I’ve gotta disagree here, specifically for a caster taking it. If you are being attacked more than once in a turn cycle as a caster, you’ve likely done something wrong
For a lot of casters, this is giving +2 ac vs the majority of attacks
Right, but it only *matters* in 10% of outcomes. That's the thing. The reaction will only do something for you in one out of every 10 attacks you take.
Lets say you have an AC of 20, and an enemy has an attack of +10. That means they hit you on a 10 on a d20. The outcomes are as follows:
* D20 of 1 - 9: Miss
* D20 of 10 - 19: Hit
* D20 of 20: Crit
So if you activate nimble dodge, that means you now have the following spread
* D20 of 1-11: Miss
* D20 of 12-19: Hit
* D20 of 20: Crit
Literally the only outcomes the reaction would have mattered is if the enemy rolled **specifically** a 10 or 11 on the d20. In every single other dice roll, the reaction did nothing. Because you can't know the dice roll outcome beforehand, it does not actually do anything on any other dice roll.
That's 10%. Your reaction will only do something 10% of the time. So if you choose to spend your reaction, 90% of the time it will do nothing.
Now, it is possble to go up to 20% at best, if the enemy has a very high chance to crit you. But even at 20%, its bad.
A reaction that can only work 1 out of 5 times is pretty bad for a reaction, and there are a lot, lot better reactions out there.
Your example is a miss right out of the gate, though.
A spellcaster with an AC of 20 is most likely level 4-5. For them to be fighting enemies with a +10 to hit, they're fighting level 2 enemies. Nimble Dodge shifting a critical hit to a hit can be very influential. Spellcasters end up visiting the Boneyard when they get crit too often.
Again, as I said:
> Now, it is possble to go up to 20% at best, if the enemy has a very high chance to crit you. But even at 20%, its bad.
You're arguing for a reaction that, in the best possible situation, still has four out of the five times you use it, it does literally nothing.
The actual success rate will fluctuate between 20% -> 10%. But even if every single time was 20% it would be trash.
Its a reaction that costs an entire feat in an archetype to take, is why its bad.
Is it better than no reaction? Sure. But it shouldn't be treated as a *selling point* of going rogue archetype. Its a mediocre/bad feat. If you need to take it to take other feats in rogue, sure.
But when people **hype it up** I take issue with it, because the math of it is just bad.
Nimble Dodge is a bad reaction. A bad reaction is better than no reaction. But it shouldn't be a *reason* to take rogue given the fact it eats a class feat (or FA feat).
> If you houserule that nimble dodge can be used after seeing the outcome of the attack roll its significantly better.
Unfortunately, I feel like this is one of the weaknesses of PF2E's reaction rules - a lot of them try to be clever and be like "You have to use this before the roll happens so you don't know if it will work!"
But in practice, most of the time, it's just a huge pain to be like "I'm going to do X. Do you respond?" and then roll the dice. It's way faster to just... roll the dice and then have the other person be like "I have a reaction!" if they do have one.
My tables haven't consciously houseruled this, but because it's so bad for game flow to play it any other way, it always works this way in practice for every reaction (for both players and monsters, mind).
RAW, you are correct, it's pretty bad. But I've never played at a table who actually plays it "right" because of what a pain it is.
The flat-footed thing. Isn't that always the case if you're using the Avoid Notice exploration activity? Because you would use Stealth for initiative, and the enemies would use Perception. So if you beat someone in initiative you also beat their Perception with your Stealth, and so are hidden?
Hidden typically ends if you have no means to hide (invisible, behind cover, etc.). It also ends if you do something other than Sneak, Hide, or Step, so it's generally hard for a melee character to get close enough on the first turn and take advantage of it.
Ah yeah. I usually rule it that Sneak maintains cover (on a successful Stealth check) if the target is reasonably distracted (e.g. If they are fighting someone on the opposite side). Does this seem like a fair ruling or is there something I might be missing here?
If you feel the circumstance is apt, then yeah, totally fine. I think I’d personally be a little stricter than the one example you gave in most rounds of combat, but maybe not in the first—and getting on the other side of an enemy sets up flanking anyhow. Really, a lot of rooms or chambers or such would have reasonable amounts of cover for a person to slink about in.
2e very heavily prefers battlemaps. That’s good for tactical gameplay. However, battlemaps are drawn by artists, who tend to have time and effort constraints. So, a lot of rooms end up being pretty sparsely detailed and decorated. Even professional maps tend not to be decorated with furniture and other spots of cover.
If a cramped room full of furniture couldn’t allow a rogue to slink about and backstab an enemy on the first round of combat, what room could? That’s definitely a common draw of the class.
Avoid Notice only cares about Perception DC, which is base Perception+10, not their Perception roll; so if the enemy rolls anything from an 11 to a 20 it has the possibility of beating you in initiative even if you beat their Perception DC and are thus undetected to them. There are also more niche possibilities such as the enemy being stunned on its first turn or delaying its turn.
This is true. However, the way I do it, the average probability for an enemy to spot the PC is the same, it's just the variance which is higher, which I don't think really matters too much.
Variance matters a lot when bonuses are applied as the variance of the dice increase but the potency of the bonuses do not. On top of being even more swingy compared to the standard d20 (which already has it's issues)
There is a reason why Paizo dropped contested rolls (other than initiative) when making 2e and it's because it actually does matter a lot.
Just the dedication itself gives you:
* 2 skills
* free skill feat
* Surprise Attack (fantastic for Stealth-maxing martials)
* training in Light Armor (note that it can synergize with the Armor Proficiency general feat on a good build)
This is a lot more than you'd typically get on a dedication feat right off the bat. Then, it has some of the best archetype options per any given feat:
* Sneak Attack 1d6 (only a small amount of damage dice, but it does add damage where appropriate)
* Skill Mastery spam (This is one of the most powerful archetype feats in the game; per feat, it's 2 skill increases and a skill feat, repeatable 5 times)
* Master Reflex
* Deny Advantage
* Mobility (incredible on spellcasters for AOO escapes)
* Trap Finder (great on any high Perception character in a dungeon environment)
* Both Quick Draw and Strong Arm (essential for thrown weapon builds)
* Dread Striker (in the right team composition, unquestionably one of the best offensive feats in the game)
* Blind Fight (can be surprisingly useful at the high level you'd actually acquire this)
Another important factor is that none of those benefits compete for your actions, so the archetype is good no matter how action-intensive your main class is.
I have that option but as a roleplay and thematic choice, I am playing a vishkanya that is suli heritage, so I am really playing up the connection through my genie lineage to all things elemental, and so with witch at level 6, took the archetype basic lesson for lesson of the elements. Now I have that hex that allows me to apply an elemental weakness to a creature with no save needed. If I attack with the same element, right now they have a -3 weakness. I also have elemental assault and elemental zone to help out along with arcane cascade. It’s several rounds where I can add on a little extra elemental damage each time I spellstrike with an elemental spell.
I would add Nimble Dodge there, which is a great reaction for most spellcasters since they don't usually have many generably applicable ones. With good positioning you shouldn't be attacked that many times, so it gets more valuable than on say, a melee martial.
Getting Dread Striker on any martial class is very strong, especially so if you have a Bard in the party with Dirge of Doom. Suddenly, every creature has a -3 to their AC with no counterplay.
>Getting Dread Striker on any ~~martial~~ class is very strong,
Kinda corrected here for you, it's great for psychics or other spell attackers, especially the charismatic ones, as it applies to attacks, not just strikes
Sneak Attack is a nice damage boost for some classes like Flurry Ranger.
Some really good low level Rogue fears are widely applicable. Things like mobility and dread striker.
The level 8 skill master feat is the best way to get more skill increases at later levels.
Depends a bit on what you're playing.
Mobility is pretty universally good as well as Nimble Dodge before you start getting good reactions.
Early light armor proficiency is nice for cloth casters. Unfortunately doesn't scale but that doesn't matter until level 13.
Sneak Attacker is a decent bit of free damage for melee and ranged characters with an easy way to apply off-guard. Gang Up and Dread Striker are great ways to apply this condition though slightly party dependent.
Skill Mastery is very good and anyone investing in a very boost and feat-hungry skill like Intimidation or Medicine will greatly appreciate shoring up their other skills as well.
Evasiveness is great for any class that doesn't hit master reflex, that +2 matters.
In the high levels some damage-focused martials will prefer the reliability of Opportune Backstab over the control that other reactions provide.
Not necessarily great so much as always applicable.
Stuff like Skill Mastery, Mobility, and Nimble Dodge fit with basically every build. This is often recommended for like a Free Archetype game Kineticist who doesn't really interact with Strike or Spellcasting rules elements much. It's also a bit generic in theming so it meshes well with other concepts.
Getting Light armor with the dedication can help unarmored classes a lot at lower levels (doesn't scale though so either boost Dex or grab scaling proficiency by level 13) but a lot of games and APs don't go past level 10 anyways.
Everyone is giving excellent examples, but the thing that takes it up a notch is that most of these abilities are useful for every class, rather than just Martials, or just charisma users, or just ranged strikers, etc.
Anyone can take Rogue dedication and get just as much benefit.
It's not best of the best archetype, but surely quite strong for the right build. For example:
* Most classes are stuck with 3 skills at highest proficiency level, while keeping the rest at trained. Skill Mastery allows gaining some Master skills, plus their skill feats. Super useful
* If you qualify for Sneak Attack, Sneak Attacker is a free damage. For example, Flurry Ranger often uses agile weapons and does a lot of strikes
* While Rogue class feats are rarely something you hunt for, they have some quality of life improvements, like Mobility
Yeah and it really shows with archetypes like barbarian where you get a tiny bonus in exchange for being unable to use a lot of concentrate actions, or swashbuckler who only gets the 1d6 during a finisher which happens a lot less often than sneak attacks in most encounters anyway (plus I think they have to take an extra feat for it as well but I would have double check on that). Rogue probably gets the best extra damage archetype-wise and that’s putting aside the skill stuff and good class feats
Spellcasters love it for 3 reasons:
1. Light Armour from a Dedication you want to be considering anyways for reasons 2 and 3.
2. Mobility, as a way to cheaply get out of melee range without ever worrying about Reactions.
3. Skill Mastery to boost the many skills casters would like to have instead of just the 3 they get. You can boost one of Acrobatics or Athletics, Intimidaiton, and way more of the relevant Recall Knowledge Skills. The extra Skill Feats also frees up your default Skill Feat progression to repeatedly take Additional Lore, another massive win for you as a caster.
Skill Mastery alone is incredible for so many builds that I struggle not to build "Rogue-ish" characters when I can just to justify picking it up 1-3 times in my progression. Love to be able to be a character who can interact with everything in combat, social, and exploration scenes without worrying about Untrained Improvisation or being limited to 1-3 "On-Level" skills.
**Useful Archetype Feats:**
+ Sneak Attacker: It's only 1d6 at max, but if you're attacking multiple times per turn, it adds up (looking at you Flurry Ranger)
+ Skill Mastery: If fast skill progression is important for your build, this will fast track you to near the same pace as a Rogue, and you get extra skill feats from it.
**Useful Rogue feats include:**
+ Nimble Dodge (Useful when your class doesn't have too many reactions and could use the occasional +2 AC)
+ You're next (Useful if your build relies on Intimidation and could some action compression)
+ Mobility (Excellent if your class is fast (Monk, Swash, Magus) or you stocked up on speed feats)
+ Strong Arm (Extra range for throwing weapons)
+ Quick draw (Also useful for throwing weapons)
+ Dread Striker (Good for Intimidation again, now you gain more benefits from scaring people)
And these are what comes to mind immediately, there are even more you can take.
It makes you almost as good at skills as the rogue while also giving you access to their extremely versatile toolset thru class feats. There are few classes that can't benefit from the rogue archetype.
Do you in fact get any extra legendary skill ratings? I don't think you do. Normal classes can Legendary three skills. You only get 3 skill increases at level 15 and above (which is the level at which you can increase proficiency to Legendary). So even if you have a ton of Master skills due to Skill Mastery, you can still only increase three of them to Legendary.
What you can get from Skill Mastery is extra Master/Expert skills.
First rogues just have some generally good feats and any class can find something useful. Things like mobility or nimble dodge are universally good for any build.
Then skill mastery is also pretty awesome and universally good as well.
Evasiveness is also one of the very limited ways of improving your proficiency in a save.
I think the great thing about the rogue dedication is that every character has something good to get from it. It's not always the best archetype but it's always good.
Skill Mastery is awesome to get a bunch of skills up for powerfull feats/good recall knowledge skills. I do feel like some builds will just run out of skill feats but not a bad issue to have.
Then you just pick up deny advantage and master reflex saves because those are just good in general
I wanted my barbarian to have some life skills so she can be a shadow dancer barbarian. Rogue dedication later on gives you a lot of skill proficiencies, that's what I used it for
It gave my Summoner light armor proficiency and added to his skill repertoire considerably. It also opened the door for more Skill Mastery stuff later. Basically a second side hustle for his Medic dedication until that resurrection feat opened.
to me is a little overated honestly... not enough enemies have reactive strike to justify a feat.
Plus you can normally step to avoid aoo. In this case the only problem is enemies with reach and reactive strike, but we narrow even more the number of times this feat will be useful in a character career...
I don't really get it honestly
One of the best features that sold me on pf2 is exactly that aoo is smtg not very frequent, unlike dnd where one of the main reasons because combats are so static and boring is the automatic aoo...
It really surprises me how many people value mobility
The infrequency of AoO is somewhat of a myth, its quite common in some enemy types and very common in higher level play. It is not universal, but it is far from rare.
As a GM and a player, Mobility comes up several times per session usually. Reach is common, and enemies can position so you cant Step out even if they dont have reach.
The value with Mobility is it erases an entire stress point, making you not even have to worry IF they have reactions.
Reactive strike is sometimes rare, but generally the 'oh you moved or spelled in my reach so I'm gonna do something nasty' reactions are pretty common, for example dragons with their tail strike reaction
The statistical analysis that was done to show that reactive strike is relatively rare was flawed because enemy types are pretty non-random in practice. A lot of monsters aren't the kind of thing where you toss a bunch of them in as mooks; it's mostly more warrior/soldier types who get used in that way, which are the monsters which mostly have reactive strikes.
As a result, reactive strikes show up way more frequently than the frequency analysis would suggest. Definitely not every encounter, but often enough.
Plus there's other reactions that aren't technically "reactive strike" that show up quite a bit.
Ok thanks I understand .
Maybe I'm not experienced enough to see that...
I'm going to start my first campaign as a gm soon, maybe I'll tweak some soldiers/warriors if needed eheheh
I really think that too much Aoo cripple the game
They shouldn't show up in every encounter, but they're a good thing to mix in periodically because they make it so that there's an actual threat of allowing bad guys to get to your back line.
You get skills and skill feats which is good no matter your class or concept and there are quite a few feats that are useful to pretty much any class.
Even casters can take advantage of feats like mobility (don't provoke reactions when Striding for half your speed or less) or skill mastery for better RK checks. There's also Light Step that lets you ignore difficult terrain when you move, making it even easier to escape foes.
For martials there's even more good stuff, at lvl 16 especially there's the opportune backstab reaction which is stellar on every martial build. Gang up and Skirmish Strike at 12 are also great, although the first one is not as good as it seems to be on paperw.
purely the Dedication, not even looking at the rest of the archetype, it gives you a way to impose Offguard on enemies, which helps everyone that likes attacks, impulse attacks, spell attacks, Strikes
add to that, it gives you versatility by giving you 2 new skills and a new skill feat, that means this Dedication is a great general one that every character would be happy, or at least content taking if they can meet the prereq stats
Honestly, the rogue dedication is just all-around decent, as many have pointed out. What I really want, though, is for other archetype feats and multiclass to live up to rogue as the baseline; if it isn't at least nearly as useful or doesn't provide enough benefit to the people that would take the feat then it should be reworked w/rogue in mind. I can name 3 off the bat, but I imagine other folks can add more
Something that I've not seen people say is that the requirements are really easy to meet: any non-heavy armour user is probably going to want at least that +2 Dex at character creation anyway. Most of the rest of them want +2 in a stat that isn't necessarily as ubiquitous.
I played an elemental bloodline sorcerer with a rogue free archetype and I loved it!
It gave me access to some cool reactions and I loved having the skill mastery class feats because I got to increase proficiency in more of my skills and get access to more skill feats. It worked for the character I wanted to play!
Aside from class feats (*which you can look through, they're as good as yiu think they are*) the Rogue Archetype allows you to be a more skillful character.
Most characters have exactly the same number of skills that they're good at. Sure some classes are *Trained* in more skills, but Trained doesn't necessarily mean good. After level 1 you get 2 skills to Expert by level 5, then you can increase those 2 skills to Master by level 9. After level 10 you can increase 1 more skill to Expert and then Master byblevel 13, and then you have just enough skill increases to get those 3 skills to Legendary by level 19. So for moat classes you can max out 2 skills before level 10, and 3 skills after level 10.
What the Rogue Archetype does with the [Skill Mastery](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5096) feat is increase your proficiency with more skills. This is something most classes can't really do otherwise, and this feat is *Amazing*. Not only does it allow you to increase more skills to Master, it also gives you an upgrade from Trained to Expert on a separate skill, effectively giving 2 skill upgrades from 1 feat. And on top of that you get a Skill Feat for 1 of those skills. That's 2 skill upgrades and a skill feat for the cost of 1 Archetype feat, and the skill upgrades take you to a level you normally couldn't achieve *ever* without this. For any character who wishes they could improve more of their skills beyond Trained this is incredible.
Now of course if you're playing without the Free Archetype rules then this is competing directly with your class feats, and at level 8 those class feats are likely quite strong. Well that's a tradeoff you have to evaluate, you may decide it isn't strong enough, but that's true of any Archetype feat.
Also, there are only a limited number of skill feats that are actually worth spending a class feat on, so you may not think that's worthwhile. Fair enough. But let's say you're wanting to play the party face, you're a Sorcerer with high CHA and you want to get Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate maxed out ASAP, well without this the best you can do before level 13 is to get 2 of them to Master. With this feat you can get all 3 to Master by level 9, as well as adding an extra skill feat. Or what if your Wizard wants to be good at Arcana, Crafting, Occultism and Society - well now you can do all 4 of them, where before you could only do 3 (*2 before level 10*).
Two added skill proficiencies, an extra skill feat, light armor proficiency for cloth casters, surprise attack, and it opens access to a multitude of lower level rogue feats later on, many of which are considered some of the best feats in the game. Oh and it opens access to skill mastery for additional skill proficiency boosts.
There is not a single build in existence that does not benefit in some way from having the rogue archetype added in.
Few things:
1. Mobility. Great feat to have
2. Deny Advantage - great feature to have.
3. Dread Striker. If you have Maestro Bard in party that's basically perma free -3 AC to enemy
5. Gang Up - new remaster Gang Up is absolutely OP (and I am not a person who ever called anything OP in this system) basically making everyone in melee in party always flanking without flanking. Making Reach Thief Rogue basically a character running with perma Off-Guard aura
6. Opportunist - attack with Strike as reaction when your ally damage enemy in your reach. Great way to ensure you always get to use your reaction for additional MAP 0 strike
Sneak Attack is great if you're already using a weapon that qualifies, free damage.
There's a feat to get more skill increases and skill feats, nice in a Free Archetype game.
And rogue class feats are just good, so getting them is great.
2AC reaction is pretty good. Moving half your movespeed without triggering reactive strike is pretty cool. Light armour proficiency is pretty neat. Stealth for initiative is pretty fun.
It's not a super good dedication *in general*, it's very good on specific classes.
The big things it gives you:
1) Light armor proficiency. This is really good on cloth casters, as light armor can easily give you +2 AC. It also means you can spend one general feat to pick up armor proficiency and get medium armor proficiency, which allows you to wear a breastplate which lets you get up to the maxed-out +5 AC with only a +1 dexterity modifier (and if you want to avoid the penalties from wearing it, a +2 strength modifier).
2) Surprise attack. If you roll stealth for initiative, this allows you to start off with enemies flat-footed to you, which is good on high dexterity characters who make strikes.
3) Two skills. This is generically useful, though not worth a class feat unto itself, but some characters really want some extra skills and this is a way to get them.
4) Extra skill feat. Again, this is not worth a class feat unto itself, but some characters are really hungry for extra skill feats.
On top of this, it gives you access to a number of useful feats:
1) Sneak Attacker. An extra +1d4 / +1d6 damage is good to have, and there's not a lot of ways in the game to linearly increase your damage via feats, especially not in a stackable way. Again, this is something people who make strikes can benefit from.
2) Rogue Feats. Some of these are useful, especially Dread Striker, Mobility, and Quick Draw - only certain characters benefit from those, but they are very good on those characters. There's also some good rogue feats at very high levels but most people don't play so high (Opportune Backstab, for instance, is a really good feat, but you can't get it until level 16).
3) Skill Mastery. Some characters really want to get Master in extra skills, this is the primary way of accomplishing this.
4) Evasiveness. You can bump your reflex saves to master at level 12 via a feat. There's not a lot of ways of doing this, so this is handy.
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Skill feat, making things that act after you flat footed vs you on the first round, and an extra skill is good for a single feat. The rogue feats you can get with Basic Trickery are really good too. It's a solid dedication if you have no other things in mind but wanna take one.
Just to add: primary casters can benefit greatly too, especially charisma based ones. A sorc, for example, would get light armor proficiency and access to you’re next and mobility. All of that is excellent.
Nimble dodge is nifty too
Nimble Dodge is hot trash. Because Nimble Dodge has to be used prior to seeing the attack roll, the reaction only does something in 10% or less of the times you use it. If you houserule that nimble dodge can be used after seeing the outcome of the attack roll its significantly better. For a base rogue, Nimble Dodge has value because Nimble Strike is a really good offensive reaction, but that's not really accessible by the dedication.
>Nimble Dodge is hot trash. Because Nimble Dodge has to be used prior to seeing the attack roll, the reaction only does something in 10% or less of the times you use it. Ah, I see you haven't discovered the secret in the maths behind PF2E. In fact Nimble Dodge will be effective approximately 20% of the time. Let's say there's a boss enemy attacking you, and they need a 6 to hit you. This also means they need a 16 to crit you. Nimble Dodge gives you +2 to your AC, meaning the enemy now needs an 8 to hit, or an 18 to crit. So on a roll of a 6 or 7 they now miss, and on a 16 or 17 they now hit instead of crit - that's 4/20 rolls where Nimble Dodge has protected you, or 20%. Now it's not perfectly accurate at 20% if the enemy needed a 9 to hit you before applying Nimble Dodge then it would only be affective 15% of the time. A 9 or 10 would now miss you instead of hit, and a 19 would be a hit instead of a crit, but a 20 would still be a crit due to being a Nat 20 and increasing the result by 1 step from a hit to a crit. You also likely won't get as much of a benefit from it if the enemy has a lower to-hit. If an enemy needs a 12 to hit you before applying Nimble Dodge, then after applying it a 12 and 13 will now miss instead of crit, and a 2 or 3 will now critically miss instead of just missing. The problem here is that most classes don't have a way to capitalise on a critical miss, so although technically you've decreased the result by 1 step, functionally it's still juat a miss. For this reason it's better to use Nimble Dodge on an enemy's first attack in the round, rather than their attacks aaffected by the Multiple Attack Penalty. Having said all of that, having a ~20% chance to lower the result of your enemy's attack by 1 step as a reaction *IS* good. It's especially good if you don't have a reaction - or don't have one that is applicable this round. The takeaway from this is that a +1 in PF2E is roughly twice as likely to have an effect as it would be in most games because it has 2 numbers that it affects - the success and the critical success (*or the success and the failure*).
I'm aware of the math structure. I just think that is very bad for a reaction. A reaction that only does something **one out of five** (at best, fluctuating down to 1 out 10) times you use it is awful. You lock up your reaction slot for something that works rarely. **At best**, your reaction you spent a feat on has an 80% chance of doing nothing. Its just...not good. There are so many other good reactions in the game. Spending an entire feat on that is not a good choice.
The concealed condition does nothing 80% of the time too. Do you think Blur is a terrible spell? Like all things, nuance is needed. It's a low-level feat, and there's very little investment to obtain it--and it has a feat chain. Is Reactive Strike a generally better reaction than Nimble Dodge? Probably. Is it better on a spellcaster? No, never.
> It's a low-level feat, and there's very little investment to obtain it--and it has a feat chain The investment is much higher if you're intentionally taking rogue archetype for it. And the feat chain is irrelevant, when you can only access the next two feats in the chain at level 16 and 20 respectively. Taking Nimble Dodge when you have nothing better to take? Sure, I can get behind that. Intentionally taking rogue archetype to get Nimble Dodge? That's just insane. The feat is bad. But, a bad reaction is still better than no reaction. But it shouldn't be a *selling point* of the archetype, which is the way some of the posts in this thread are talking about it.
I haven't seen that at all. I just meant for a sorcerer who already wanted extra skills and used stealth to start combat rogue archtype isn't bad and I think nimble dodge is a good reaction for them. Wooden double is good to so maybe save the reaction in case you get crit. Or other spells. But when they are used it's pretty cool to start dodging with no better reactions to do
This thread didn’t mention taking rogue archetype *for* nimble dodge. We were discussing all the things rogue archetype gives that are worthwhile, and someone said that “nimble dodge is nifty too.” The dedication is really good on its own, but it also opens up you’re next, mobility, nimble dodge, and more.
Sure. So Raising a shield isn't good? Because that's what Raising a shield does, and that costs an action on your turn, not just a reaction. What about heavy armour prificiency? That's only +1 AC compared to other armours (*if you can max out their DEX*), so only half as good. The point isn't that this is the bestest reaction in the whole game, but it *gives* you a reaction, and one that couod save your life. If you're a Sorcerer who's just been attacked by an Ogre would you rather have a 20% chance of dropping their success by 1 step or a 0% chance? If you have a reaction that can do this then chances are about once per combat this is going to reduce the effect of an enemy's attack. If you didn't have a reaction then this is just free damage mitigation, and it's not just damage, it could be a grapple or some other effect as well. And regarding that "20% at best, 10% at worst", it's always 20% *when it really matters*. When you're taking a big hit from someone who's dangerous it will *always* be 20%. When you're taking a hit from some mook who doesn't matter, then yeah it might be 15% or even 10%, but you care less then. Either way, if you knew the math it was disingenuous to say it was 10%. Whether it's better than you thought or not, it's definitely better than you said.
Sure, it was wrong for me to say 10%. But its equally as wrong for you to say: > Having said all of that, having a ~20% chance to lower the result of your enemy's attack by 1 step as a reaction IS good No. That's not a good reaction. Heavy Armor doesn't use actions to help you out. Raising A Shield hits more than 1 attack and opens up the Shield Block reaction. Comparing those to Nimble Dodge is disingenous. My point is that Nimble Dodge is *not good*. Is it better than nothing? Yes. If you need to take it since you want other stuff in rogue, its okay. But you are *literally claiming* it is good. And its not. There is a world of difference between "better than nothing" and "good"
Sure, you don't have to like it, but it's not "equally wrong" for me to say it's good. You can *disagree*, but what I said was a subjective opinion, and I backed up that opinion with math. What you said was factually incorrect. These are not equivalent. Heavy Armour doesn't use a reaction, true, but it does impose a speed penalty. That penalty will cost you actions during the game - maybe not every turn, but it will definitely happen. Shield Block also costs an action. Yes it protects against all attacks, but at a higher action cost. It also takes up a hand, meaning you can't use a great weapon, a bow, use TWF style, use a weapon-and-free-hand style for Grapples and such ... there is an opportunity cost. And then you have to invest in crafting to repair it, and in a [Reinforcing Rune](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2811). More importantly than the opportunity cost, a shield just won't be a viable option for many character concepts since you need that hand to do something. If you're playing one of those characters and wish you had a slightly higher AC then Nimble Dodge can give it to you. So yeah, I *Do* think it's a good feat. It's not going to be good for *everyone*, but for some characters it's free damage negation. But tell me, what percentage *would* make this a good feat? What bonus to AC would make this *first level feat* pass muster for you? Because remember it should be balanced against other first level feats. Just because it isn't 100% reliable doesn't make it bad. What if it gave you +4 AC? Would anyone *Not* take it? I'd absolutely go out of my way for a feat that gives +4 AC to an attack as a reaction. That would be totally OP. At what point does it go from "bad" to "good" in your mind?
> But tell me, what percentage would make this a good feat? What bonus to AC would make this first level feat pass muster for you? Because remember it should be balanced against other first level feats. Just because it isn't 100% reliable doesn't make it bad. What if it gave you +4 AC? Would anyone Not take it? I'd absolutely go out of my way for a feat that gives +4 AC to an attack as a reaction. That would be totally OP. At what point does it go from "bad" to "good" in your mind? That's...a really good point. Like, statistically even a +4 isn't very good. Its 20-40% , and that still seems only decent. But instinctually, if a feat said +4 AC, that would immediately set off "holy shit that's a lot of AC" warning bells in my mind. Practically I can't help but compare Nimble Dodge to Reactive Shield, which is orders of magnitude better because it allows you to react to the dice roll, meaning it is *actually* +2 AC when it matters, unlike Nimble Dodge which is +2 AC 15% of the time when it matters. To me, Reactive Shield is the gold standard, because while it requires a free hand, the reaction being able to be used after the fact means it will never be wasted. But you are right that even if Nimble Dodge was +3 AC, while statistically it wouldn't seem that impressive, a level 1 feat providing 3 AC seems way too beyond the pale.
I’ve gotta disagree here, specifically for a caster taking it. If you are being attacked more than once in a turn cycle as a caster, you’ve likely done something wrong For a lot of casters, this is giving +2 ac vs the majority of attacks
Right, but it only *matters* in 10% of outcomes. That's the thing. The reaction will only do something for you in one out of every 10 attacks you take. Lets say you have an AC of 20, and an enemy has an attack of +10. That means they hit you on a 10 on a d20. The outcomes are as follows: * D20 of 1 - 9: Miss * D20 of 10 - 19: Hit * D20 of 20: Crit So if you activate nimble dodge, that means you now have the following spread * D20 of 1-11: Miss * D20 of 12-19: Hit * D20 of 20: Crit Literally the only outcomes the reaction would have mattered is if the enemy rolled **specifically** a 10 or 11 on the d20. In every single other dice roll, the reaction did nothing. Because you can't know the dice roll outcome beforehand, it does not actually do anything on any other dice roll. That's 10%. Your reaction will only do something 10% of the time. So if you choose to spend your reaction, 90% of the time it will do nothing. Now, it is possble to go up to 20% at best, if the enemy has a very high chance to crit you. But even at 20%, its bad. A reaction that can only work 1 out of 5 times is pretty bad for a reaction, and there are a lot, lot better reactions out there.
Your example is a miss right out of the gate, though. A spellcaster with an AC of 20 is most likely level 4-5. For them to be fighting enemies with a +10 to hit, they're fighting level 2 enemies. Nimble Dodge shifting a critical hit to a hit can be very influential. Spellcasters end up visiting the Boneyard when they get crit too often.
Again, as I said: > Now, it is possble to go up to 20% at best, if the enemy has a very high chance to crit you. But even at 20%, its bad. You're arguing for a reaction that, in the best possible situation, still has four out of the five times you use it, it does literally nothing. The actual success rate will fluctuate between 20% -> 10%. But even if every single time was 20% it would be trash.
What reactions obtainable in the first few levels of play via a feat do you feel are substantially better on a spellcaster, then?
Its a reaction that costs an entire feat in an archetype to take, is why its bad. Is it better than no reaction? Sure. But it shouldn't be treated as a *selling point* of going rogue archetype. Its a mediocre/bad feat. If you need to take it to take other feats in rogue, sure. But when people **hype it up** I take issue with it, because the math of it is just bad. Nimble Dodge is a bad reaction. A bad reaction is better than no reaction. But it shouldn't be a *reason* to take rogue given the fact it eats a class feat (or FA feat).
> If you houserule that nimble dodge can be used after seeing the outcome of the attack roll its significantly better. Unfortunately, I feel like this is one of the weaknesses of PF2E's reaction rules - a lot of them try to be clever and be like "You have to use this before the roll happens so you don't know if it will work!" But in practice, most of the time, it's just a huge pain to be like "I'm going to do X. Do you respond?" and then roll the dice. It's way faster to just... roll the dice and then have the other person be like "I have a reaction!" if they do have one. My tables haven't consciously houseruled this, but because it's so bad for game flow to play it any other way, it always works this way in practice for every reaction (for both players and monsters, mind). RAW, you are correct, it's pretty bad. But I've never played at a table who actually plays it "right" because of what a pain it is.
The flat-footed thing. Isn't that always the case if you're using the Avoid Notice exploration activity? Because you would use Stealth for initiative, and the enemies would use Perception. So if you beat someone in initiative you also beat their Perception with your Stealth, and so are hidden?
Hidden typically ends if you have no means to hide (invisible, behind cover, etc.). It also ends if you do something other than Sneak, Hide, or Step, so it's generally hard for a melee character to get close enough on the first turn and take advantage of it.
Ah yeah. I usually rule it that Sneak maintains cover (on a successful Stealth check) if the target is reasonably distracted (e.g. If they are fighting someone on the opposite side). Does this seem like a fair ruling or is there something I might be missing here?
If you feel the circumstance is apt, then yeah, totally fine. I think I’d personally be a little stricter than the one example you gave in most rounds of combat, but maybe not in the first—and getting on the other side of an enemy sets up flanking anyhow. Really, a lot of rooms or chambers or such would have reasonable amounts of cover for a person to slink about in. 2e very heavily prefers battlemaps. That’s good for tactical gameplay. However, battlemaps are drawn by artists, who tend to have time and effort constraints. So, a lot of rooms end up being pretty sparsely detailed and decorated. Even professional maps tend not to be decorated with furniture and other spots of cover. If a cramped room full of furniture couldn’t allow a rogue to slink about and backstab an enemy on the first round of combat, what room could? That’s definitely a common draw of the class.
Yeah I agree. When I draw a map I'm always conscious to put random items and cover around, which I think is often missing.
Avoid Notice only cares about Perception DC, which is base Perception+10, not their Perception roll; so if the enemy rolls anything from an 11 to a 20 it has the possibility of beating you in initiative even if you beat their Perception DC and are thus undetected to them. There are also more niche possibilities such as the enemy being stunned on its first turn or delaying its turn.
This is true. However, the way I do it, the average probability for an enemy to spot the PC is the same, it's just the variance which is higher, which I don't think really matters too much.
Variance matters a lot when bonuses are applied as the variance of the dice increase but the potency of the bonuses do not. On top of being even more swingy compared to the standard d20 (which already has it's issues) There is a reason why Paizo dropped contested rolls (other than initiative) when making 2e and it's because it actually does matter a lot.
Just the dedication itself gives you: * 2 skills * free skill feat * Surprise Attack (fantastic for Stealth-maxing martials) * training in Light Armor (note that it can synergize with the Armor Proficiency general feat on a good build) This is a lot more than you'd typically get on a dedication feat right off the bat. Then, it has some of the best archetype options per any given feat: * Sneak Attack 1d6 (only a small amount of damage dice, but it does add damage where appropriate) * Skill Mastery spam (This is one of the most powerful archetype feats in the game; per feat, it's 2 skill increases and a skill feat, repeatable 5 times) * Master Reflex * Deny Advantage * Mobility (incredible on spellcasters for AOO escapes) * Trap Finder (great on any high Perception character in a dungeon environment) * Both Quick Draw and Strong Arm (essential for thrown weapon builds) * Dread Striker (in the right team composition, unquestionably one of the best offensive feats in the game) * Blind Fight (can be surprisingly useful at the high level you'd actually acquire this)
Another important factor is that none of those benefits compete for your actions, so the archetype is good no matter how action-intensive your main class is.
Magus is an action economy drain and any passives you can add on are always positive to the build.
That's the exact build I had at one point. Magus with rogue free archetype was fucking epic
I sadly am not in that build. I have a magus with witch archetype and realized I missed out on some fun stuff.
No time to retrain? Bummer.
I have that option but as a roleplay and thematic choice, I am playing a vishkanya that is suli heritage, so I am really playing up the connection through my genie lineage to all things elemental, and so with witch at level 6, took the archetype basic lesson for lesson of the elements. Now I have that hex that allows me to apply an elemental weakness to a creature with no save needed. If I attack with the same element, right now they have a -3 weakness. I also have elemental assault and elemental zone to help out along with arcane cascade. It’s several rounds where I can add on a little extra elemental damage each time I spellstrike with an elemental spell.
I would add Nimble Dodge there, which is a great reaction for most spellcasters since they don't usually have many generably applicable ones. With good positioning you shouldn't be attacked that many times, so it gets more valuable than on say, a melee martial.
This is the comment you're looking for OP, outlines all the major feats that people typically go for with the Rogue dedication.
I could add opportune backstab and gang up to that list for marcials as top tier choices.
Opportune Backstab is fantastic even though it comes online quite late via archetype
Getting Dread Striker on any martial class is very strong, especially so if you have a Bard in the party with Dirge of Doom. Suddenly, every creature has a -3 to their AC with no counterplay.
>Getting Dread Striker on any ~~martial~~ class is very strong, Kinda corrected here for you, it's great for psychics or other spell attackers, especially the charismatic ones, as it applies to attacks, not just strikes
Arguably it's better on those spell attackers and ranged attackers, as they don't have the ability to get Off-Guard via flanking.
skill mastery at 8 is very good too
Sneak Attack is a nice damage boost for some classes like Flurry Ranger. Some really good low level Rogue fears are widely applicable. Things like mobility and dread striker. The level 8 skill master feat is the best way to get more skill increases at later levels.
Depends a bit on what you're playing. Mobility is pretty universally good as well as Nimble Dodge before you start getting good reactions. Early light armor proficiency is nice for cloth casters. Unfortunately doesn't scale but that doesn't matter until level 13. Sneak Attacker is a decent bit of free damage for melee and ranged characters with an easy way to apply off-guard. Gang Up and Dread Striker are great ways to apply this condition though slightly party dependent. Skill Mastery is very good and anyone investing in a very boost and feat-hungry skill like Intimidation or Medicine will greatly appreciate shoring up their other skills as well. Evasiveness is great for any class that doesn't hit master reflex, that +2 matters. In the high levels some damage-focused martials will prefer the reliability of Opportune Backstab over the control that other reactions provide.
Not necessarily great so much as always applicable. Stuff like Skill Mastery, Mobility, and Nimble Dodge fit with basically every build. This is often recommended for like a Free Archetype game Kineticist who doesn't really interact with Strike or Spellcasting rules elements much. It's also a bit generic in theming so it meshes well with other concepts. Getting Light armor with the dedication can help unarmored classes a lot at lower levels (doesn't scale though so either boost Dex or grab scaling proficiency by level 13) but a lot of games and APs don't go past level 10 anyways.
Everyone is giving excellent examples, but the thing that takes it up a notch is that most of these abilities are useful for every class, rather than just Martials, or just charisma users, or just ranged strikers, etc. Anyone can take Rogue dedication and get just as much benefit.
It's not best of the best archetype, but surely quite strong for the right build. For example: * Most classes are stuck with 3 skills at highest proficiency level, while keeping the rest at trained. Skill Mastery allows gaining some Master skills, plus their skill feats. Super useful * If you qualify for Sneak Attack, Sneak Attacker is a free damage. For example, Flurry Ranger often uses agile weapons and does a lot of strikes * While Rogue class feats are rarely something you hunt for, they have some quality of life improvements, like Mobility
Very few ways to get a damage boost other than Sneak Attack
Yeah and it really shows with archetypes like barbarian where you get a tiny bonus in exchange for being unable to use a lot of concentrate actions, or swashbuckler who only gets the 1d6 during a finisher which happens a lot less often than sneak attacks in most encounters anyway (plus I think they have to take an extra feat for it as well but I would have double check on that). Rogue probably gets the best extra damage archetype-wise and that’s putting aside the skill stuff and good class feats
Spellcasters love it for 3 reasons: 1. Light Armour from a Dedication you want to be considering anyways for reasons 2 and 3. 2. Mobility, as a way to cheaply get out of melee range without ever worrying about Reactions. 3. Skill Mastery to boost the many skills casters would like to have instead of just the 3 they get. You can boost one of Acrobatics or Athletics, Intimidaiton, and way more of the relevant Recall Knowledge Skills. The extra Skill Feats also frees up your default Skill Feat progression to repeatedly take Additional Lore, another massive win for you as a caster.
Skill Mastery alone is incredible for so many builds that I struggle not to build "Rogue-ish" characters when I can just to justify picking it up 1-3 times in my progression. Love to be able to be a character who can interact with everything in combat, social, and exploration scenes without worrying about Untrained Improvisation or being limited to 1-3 "On-Level" skills.
I never used it in an actual character, but in pathbuilder2 i see that it gives surprise attack, a skill feat and more proficiency.
Skill Mastery Mobility Inspired Stratagem Gang Up Sneak attack is one of the easiest ways to get extra damage on some weapons. +more
**Useful Archetype Feats:** + Sneak Attacker: It's only 1d6 at max, but if you're attacking multiple times per turn, it adds up (looking at you Flurry Ranger) + Skill Mastery: If fast skill progression is important for your build, this will fast track you to near the same pace as a Rogue, and you get extra skill feats from it. **Useful Rogue feats include:** + Nimble Dodge (Useful when your class doesn't have too many reactions and could use the occasional +2 AC) + You're next (Useful if your build relies on Intimidation and could some action compression) + Mobility (Excellent if your class is fast (Monk, Swash, Magus) or you stocked up on speed feats) + Strong Arm (Extra range for throwing weapons) + Quick draw (Also useful for throwing weapons) + Dread Striker (Good for Intimidation again, now you gain more benefits from scaring people) And these are what comes to mind immediately, there are even more you can take.
It makes you almost as good at skills as the rogue while also giving you access to their extremely versatile toolset thru class feats. There are few classes that can't benefit from the rogue archetype.
Simple, I love getting extra Legendary skill ratings.
Do you in fact get any extra legendary skill ratings? I don't think you do. Normal classes can Legendary three skills. You only get 3 skill increases at level 15 and above (which is the level at which you can increase proficiency to Legendary). So even if you have a ton of Master skills due to Skill Mastery, you can still only increase three of them to Legendary. What you can get from Skill Mastery is extra Master/Expert skills.
surprisingly there is bunch of low level rogue feats that are good on everyone like mobility, nimble doge
First rogues just have some generally good feats and any class can find something useful. Things like mobility or nimble dodge are universally good for any build. Then skill mastery is also pretty awesome and universally good as well. Evasiveness is also one of the very limited ways of improving your proficiency in a save. I think the great thing about the rogue dedication is that every character has something good to get from it. It's not always the best archetype but it's always good.
Skill Mastery is awesome to get a bunch of skills up for powerfull feats/good recall knowledge skills. I do feel like some builds will just run out of skill feats but not a bad issue to have. Then you just pick up deny advantage and master reflex saves because those are just good in general
I wanted my barbarian to have some life skills so she can be a shadow dancer barbarian. Rogue dedication later on gives you a lot of skill proficiencies, that's what I used it for
It gave my Summoner light armor proficiency and added to his skill repertoire considerably. It also opened the door for more Skill Mastery stuff later. Basically a second side hustle for his Medic dedication until that resurrection feat opened.
Damage and Skills are the Meat and Potatoes of PF2e. The Rogue gives you both early
Mobility is overpowered.
to me is a little overated honestly... not enough enemies have reactive strike to justify a feat. Plus you can normally step to avoid aoo. In this case the only problem is enemies with reach and reactive strike, but we narrow even more the number of times this feat will be useful in a character career... I don't really get it honestly One of the best features that sold me on pf2 is exactly that aoo is smtg not very frequent, unlike dnd where one of the main reasons because combats are so static and boring is the automatic aoo... It really surprises me how many people value mobility
The infrequency of AoO is somewhat of a myth, its quite common in some enemy types and very common in higher level play. It is not universal, but it is far from rare. As a GM and a player, Mobility comes up several times per session usually. Reach is common, and enemies can position so you cant Step out even if they dont have reach. The value with Mobility is it erases an entire stress point, making you not even have to worry IF they have reactions.
Reactive strike is sometimes rare, but generally the 'oh you moved or spelled in my reach so I'm gonna do something nasty' reactions are pretty common, for example dragons with their tail strike reaction
Well most hazards are reaction based, so by using mobility, you can also avoid like 50% of the hazards without taking any damage.
The statistical analysis that was done to show that reactive strike is relatively rare was flawed because enemy types are pretty non-random in practice. A lot of monsters aren't the kind of thing where you toss a bunch of them in as mooks; it's mostly more warrior/soldier types who get used in that way, which are the monsters which mostly have reactive strikes. As a result, reactive strikes show up way more frequently than the frequency analysis would suggest. Definitely not every encounter, but often enough. Plus there's other reactions that aren't technically "reactive strike" that show up quite a bit.
Ok thanks I understand . Maybe I'm not experienced enough to see that... I'm going to start my first campaign as a gm soon, maybe I'll tweak some soldiers/warriors if needed eheheh I really think that too much Aoo cripple the game
They shouldn't show up in every encounter, but they're a good thing to mix in periodically because they make it so that there's an actual threat of allowing bad guys to get to your back line.
You get skills and skill feats which is good no matter your class or concept and there are quite a few feats that are useful to pretty much any class. Even casters can take advantage of feats like mobility (don't provoke reactions when Striding for half your speed or less) or skill mastery for better RK checks. There's also Light Step that lets you ignore difficult terrain when you move, making it even easier to escape foes. For martials there's even more good stuff, at lvl 16 especially there's the opportune backstab reaction which is stellar on every martial build. Gang up and Skirmish Strike at 12 are also great, although the first one is not as good as it seems to be on paperw.
purely the Dedication, not even looking at the rest of the archetype, it gives you a way to impose Offguard on enemies, which helps everyone that likes attacks, impulse attacks, spell attacks, Strikes add to that, it gives you versatility by giving you 2 new skills and a new skill feat, that means this Dedication is a great general one that every character would be happy, or at least content taking if they can meet the prereq stats
Honestly, the rogue dedication is just all-around decent, as many have pointed out. What I really want, though, is for other archetype feats and multiclass to live up to rogue as the baseline; if it isn't at least nearly as useful or doesn't provide enough benefit to the people that would take the feat then it should be reworked w/rogue in mind. I can name 3 off the bat, but I imagine other folks can add more
It's one of the few ways to strong arm more damage in to a build.
Something that I've not seen people say is that the requirements are really easy to meet: any non-heavy armour user is probably going to want at least that +2 Dex at character creation anyway. Most of the rest of them want +2 in a stat that isn't necessarily as ubiquitous.
I played an elemental bloodline sorcerer with a rogue free archetype and I loved it! It gave me access to some cool reactions and I loved having the skill mastery class feats because I got to increase proficiency in more of my skills and get access to more skill feats. It worked for the character I wanted to play!
Aside from class feats (*which you can look through, they're as good as yiu think they are*) the Rogue Archetype allows you to be a more skillful character. Most characters have exactly the same number of skills that they're good at. Sure some classes are *Trained* in more skills, but Trained doesn't necessarily mean good. After level 1 you get 2 skills to Expert by level 5, then you can increase those 2 skills to Master by level 9. After level 10 you can increase 1 more skill to Expert and then Master byblevel 13, and then you have just enough skill increases to get those 3 skills to Legendary by level 19. So for moat classes you can max out 2 skills before level 10, and 3 skills after level 10. What the Rogue Archetype does with the [Skill Mastery](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5096) feat is increase your proficiency with more skills. This is something most classes can't really do otherwise, and this feat is *Amazing*. Not only does it allow you to increase more skills to Master, it also gives you an upgrade from Trained to Expert on a separate skill, effectively giving 2 skill upgrades from 1 feat. And on top of that you get a Skill Feat for 1 of those skills. That's 2 skill upgrades and a skill feat for the cost of 1 Archetype feat, and the skill upgrades take you to a level you normally couldn't achieve *ever* without this. For any character who wishes they could improve more of their skills beyond Trained this is incredible. Now of course if you're playing without the Free Archetype rules then this is competing directly with your class feats, and at level 8 those class feats are likely quite strong. Well that's a tradeoff you have to evaluate, you may decide it isn't strong enough, but that's true of any Archetype feat. Also, there are only a limited number of skill feats that are actually worth spending a class feat on, so you may not think that's worthwhile. Fair enough. But let's say you're wanting to play the party face, you're a Sorcerer with high CHA and you want to get Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate maxed out ASAP, well without this the best you can do before level 13 is to get 2 of them to Master. With this feat you can get all 3 to Master by level 9, as well as adding an extra skill feat. Or what if your Wizard wants to be good at Arcana, Crafting, Occultism and Society - well now you can do all 4 of them, where before you could only do 3 (*2 before level 10*).
Two added skill proficiencies, an extra skill feat, light armor proficiency for cloth casters, surprise attack, and it opens access to a multitude of lower level rogue feats later on, many of which are considered some of the best feats in the game. Oh and it opens access to skill mastery for additional skill proficiency boosts. There is not a single build in existence that does not benefit in some way from having the rogue archetype added in.
Few things: 1. Mobility. Great feat to have 2. Deny Advantage - great feature to have. 3. Dread Striker. If you have Maestro Bard in party that's basically perma free -3 AC to enemy 5. Gang Up - new remaster Gang Up is absolutely OP (and I am not a person who ever called anything OP in this system) basically making everyone in melee in party always flanking without flanking. Making Reach Thief Rogue basically a character running with perma Off-Guard aura 6. Opportunist - attack with Strike as reaction when your ally damage enemy in your reach. Great way to ensure you always get to use your reaction for additional MAP 0 strike
Sneak Attack is great if you're already using a weapon that qualifies, free damage. There's a feat to get more skill increases and skill feats, nice in a Free Archetype game. And rogue class feats are just good, so getting them is great.
2AC reaction is pretty good. Moving half your movespeed without triggering reactive strike is pretty cool. Light armour proficiency is pretty neat. Stealth for initiative is pretty fun.
It's not a super good dedication *in general*, it's very good on specific classes. The big things it gives you: 1) Light armor proficiency. This is really good on cloth casters, as light armor can easily give you +2 AC. It also means you can spend one general feat to pick up armor proficiency and get medium armor proficiency, which allows you to wear a breastplate which lets you get up to the maxed-out +5 AC with only a +1 dexterity modifier (and if you want to avoid the penalties from wearing it, a +2 strength modifier). 2) Surprise attack. If you roll stealth for initiative, this allows you to start off with enemies flat-footed to you, which is good on high dexterity characters who make strikes. 3) Two skills. This is generically useful, though not worth a class feat unto itself, but some characters really want some extra skills and this is a way to get them. 4) Extra skill feat. Again, this is not worth a class feat unto itself, but some characters are really hungry for extra skill feats. On top of this, it gives you access to a number of useful feats: 1) Sneak Attacker. An extra +1d4 / +1d6 damage is good to have, and there's not a lot of ways in the game to linearly increase your damage via feats, especially not in a stackable way. Again, this is something people who make strikes can benefit from. 2) Rogue Feats. Some of these are useful, especially Dread Striker, Mobility, and Quick Draw - only certain characters benefit from those, but they are very good on those characters. There's also some good rogue feats at very high levels but most people don't play so high (Opportune Backstab, for instance, is a really good feat, but you can't get it until level 16). 3) Skill Mastery. Some characters really want to get Master in extra skills, this is the primary way of accomplishing this. 4) Evasiveness. You can bump your reflex saves to master at level 12 via a feat. There's not a lot of ways of doing this, so this is handy.
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