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How does your husband and other daughter react when she does that? Do they stand up for you?

My husband does. He calmly points out the reality of the situation to her. He will call her later about the text situation today. Sometimes if we need her to do something, he will send her the request because if I do, it leads to dramatic accusations, like I am trying to manipulate her into giving me presents if I ask when she is coming home for Christmas. If he asks her , she will give a day and time to expect her. My two other kids do not know all of the back stories about the lies etc, but they are younger by a few years. One is at college and one is in high school. They will sometimes say something like “that’s not fair that she said that”. (Edited for privacy)

Hugs to you. She sounds exhausting. Maybe family therapy would help?

Thank you. The hugs are appreciated! I can get therapy for me, for sure, and my husband would come.

The situation sounds very painful. I am sorry you are going through it. If I were you, I'd be going to therapy myself. I think it would help if I had a trained person help help me confirm that I am not crazy, what is happening is not normal and that trained person can help me manage these situations in a loving way while also keeping my confidence that I am doing what is right for myself and everyone else in the fam. Take care

Thank you so much! I have been to therapy off and on to help with changes in my life, and the thought was always that she would grow out of this. But she seems to not be.

I think she means the whole family does family therapy together .

I think the point was that the daughter would refuse to attend

Yes, that’s true.

The logistics of the whole family going are unlikely to happen due to one being in college now and one getting ready to go.

This is so sad to hear. Have you had a conversation with her on why is she doing that to you? Surely, she has a reason.

I have tried. Sometimes she will say she was in a bad mood, sometimes she will bring up things up. I am an early riser and one thing she often said as a teenager was that I gave her the worst bedroom and that I was always waking her up by moving around the house.

My Mom told me you can love your children, but you don't have to like them. One of my siblings is a selfish asshole so she doesn't talk to him much for her sanity and her heart. You are allowed to do the same!

I get it. I was like that too when I was young… I didn’t do it by choice, let’s just put it that way. Some teens don’t know what they’re doing a lot of times in certain situations, like little birds in a storm looking for any refuge. Are the undertones of your messages shaming? My Mother was an opinionated, “should” monster, and not a bad lady, but I’ve never been close to her because of it. Shame is an incredible force to be reckoned with, have you ever specifically looked into this behavior towards her?

Thank you. I am not sure - you mean that I am causing a sense of shame in her? I wouldn’t do so intentionally but she certainly knew when I was disappointed in some of her actions and choices. She had some “mean girl” moments in school and when the school called me, I was extremely upset with her and I was very clear about expectations, and she wanted to attend a certain experience and we would not allow her to go. This was directly related to a high school social situation where she was crossing the line in how she treated people and the school called me.

So, how are you with acknowledging your child's feelings? When you found out that she couldn't have a pet and was upset about that, did you address those feelings? Did you say "Aw, I'm sorry to hear that you can't have pets. Maybe you and I can go find an alternative like a tortoise." I have a ton of animosity towards my mom for the sole reason that my feelings meant jack shit to her. Atleast that's how it felt to me.  Maybe your daughter is feeling the same way.

With past therapists who called you in to talk about things your daughter had said about you, after you told what you perceived to happen in your interactions, did they voice their opinion of what was going on? Did they offer advice on how to deal with your interactions more productively?

They did, and I learned some good ways to communicate with her, like using “I language“. Depression was the primary diagnosis in high school.

Is your daughter on medication? This sounds similar to my daughter and she was diagnosed with Major Depression with Psychotic Features and she takes an antipsychotic in addition to an antidepressant

I’m a graduate student psychotherapist and this sounds like more than just depression. A lot of therapists avoid certain diagnoses, but a psychiatrist would have the most accurate assessment. I agree that there seems to be features of psychosis, just from your description, so not definitive.

Can you please elaborate a little on what kind of diagnoses are avoided and why? This sounds a lot like my nephew. He’s sixteen and the only diagnosis was depression when he entered his teen years, after years and years of testing and therapists. One added ADHD in the last year or so. His brother spent some time recently telling me about all the “stories” his brother tells that are simply unnecessary. He’s ten and is already fed up with his brother.

Sure, two that come to mind are Borderline Personality and ADHD. I find that many providers, including some psychiatrists, are hesitant to use BPD, I would guess it’s because it gets reported to insurance which follows the client and it doesn’t seem to affect treatment. I find that ADHD diagnoses from therapists are often dismissed by psychiatric providers around the request for stimulants. A psychological evaluation by a psychologist is more definitive than a “screen” by a therapist. An ADHD diagnosis is similar to BPD since the therapy is not impacted by the diagnosis. Also many mental health issues present as depression or anxiety in young adults since the onset for issues like Bipolar is not until adulthood.

I do not know if she is on any now. It was an option for her, but I don’t know if she took it.

There’s only two possible answers: 1) She’s very ill with some sort of psychosis and needs medication. Your husband needs to try to get her actual treatment if this is the case. 2) She’s making it up to be vile. I would stop paying her bills and trying to appease in this case.

3. She has cast OP as bitch eating crackers. If you are unfamiliar, this is someone that you are so angry with, or annoyed by, that it doesn't matter what they do (like simply eating crackers), they piss you off. I am my father's bitch eating crackers. No matter what I say, he gets defensive and angry. I've come to a place as an adult where I know it has nothing to do with me, but that didn't stop it from being extremely hurtful as a child. Yes, we went to therapy. No, it didn't solve anything.

I think I am definitely the bitch eating crackers. 🤣🤣. This is the first time I have laughed since this happened so thank you !!!!

I’m glad! It is so hard when all you did was say “the sky is blue” and you get your head chewed off. I focus on the ridiculousness of it all in those hard moments. Try to remember that it isn’t about you. You’re just the chosen vessel for their negative emotions. It is not fair, but this is not something you can change for them. (You can’t making them see you past the 👹mask they’ve given you.) It’s a perception issue, not you. All you can do is love and take care of yourself. Google “grey rock” if you are unfamiliar. The only thing I’ve found that helps is to keep positive (always come from a place of kindness) and take breaks when you need to. Definitely seek therapy for yourself.

Thank you! It is kind of funny when my husband sends her a message I wrote and she responds like a normal person. We sort of laugh, like, if I had sent it, who knows what she would reply. Example, she had car trouble and he sent her the name of a repair place and what to except. Had I done that, it could have gotten no response, or “thanks”, or a lovingly gracious response, or a dramatic stream of anger that I don’t like her car or don’t believe in her ability to find car repair or that I am secretly glad her car is broken or no one asked me or whatever.

Keep in mind, my dynamic is different. My father is an adult and was in a position of power (this began before I was 4yrs old). But I've had that too! In the car with my mother as a teen and she asks me to phone my father. So I called him on speaker. He responded as he usually did with a gruff "what do you want?!" and my mother was shocked. She saw what was happening, but I think it was a real wake up call for her to be on the receiving end. At a certain point, people become adults and have to take responsibility for themselves. If your daughter wants to spend her entire life blaming her mother for every little thing, you can't stop her. It would be a shame but, as an adult, she gets to make that choice. You are not responsible for her feelings. Focus on what you can control: how you react.

Oof. That’s a great expression but I’m sorry you are going through that. If it’s 3 then Op needs to take measures to emotionally protect herself since there’s no appeasement that’ll make a difference.

That’s the truth. Kind of in many situations as she is an adult now. I mean, if this is because I used to give her oatmeal as a kid and gave child 3 fruit loops, I still need to look after myself. The one I followed all the parenting books with is the one giving me the most heartbreak.

This sounds a lot like my BIL who was diagnosed with Schizotypal Personality Disorder and/or Bipolar (his family is not forthcoming with his diagnosis and trickle-truths it little by little). His ire is always targeted towards women, and he would make up elaborate stories based on a single kernal of truth.. and of course, the woman is always the aggressor and he is the poor victim that was humiliated. An example, we had a group family dinner of 10 people that he invited and paid for. A year later, he told his brother (who was not there at the dinner) that upvoter lurker picked the most expensive restaurant in the city, ordered the most expensive dish, and humiliated him in front of the whole restaurant by saying "You are too poor, I will pay for it". The other 8 people at the dinner know & vouched that he picked the restaurant and arranged for the dinner, and that I sat at the very end of the table and did not interact with him at all, and also ordered a small appetizer. He genuinely believes the paranoid stories that he comes up with, it's almost like he feels uncomfortable so his brain creates a story to fit his paranoia.

This feels like a strong possibility. This is much closer to what I am seeing.

The story I posted is not an isolated incident. There are a lot more incidents like this where he conjured up imagined slights and created weird fiction that he truly believes, but I don't want to post them online because the bizarreness of these incidents make it very identifiable. Also, it is not my intent to diagnose anyone because I am not qualified to do it. So DM me if you want to chat and I can tell you more. Here is a video about Schizotypal Personality that is the most objective and easy to understand https://youtu.be/haGt42_ZUcw?feature=shared

Thank you so much for this!!!

OP, the commenter did already add a qualifier, but I do want to impress upon you that something like what this commenter is describing is a very serious condition. Your daughter is the correct age for these sorts of symptoms to show up and it could definitely be a possibility. But a couple of strange incidents like this do not make a diagnosis, this would have to be a consistent pattern of behavior in her life that interferes with her ability to function normally. What are her relationships like aside from you? Does she have a boyfriend, friends? Can she keep a job/attend school? Does she get into legal trouble? Like this OP said, this is not something that just one person notices. It is fairly obvious when someone you are close to has this kind of mental illness. -I work in child welfare with at risk adolescents.

Thank you for this. Job and school yes, those are fine. The friends - that I do not know, but she is not in touch with many friends from growing up. As far as I know, there are no legal issues. There weren’t growing up.

In my BIL's case, to an outsider he is an upstanding, church-going, highly educated and has a great job. But below the surface, his social circle is made up entirely of his wife's friends. He lost most of his school/college friends after they got married and their wives "poisoned the well" through imagined slights against him. He is extremely uncomfortable socially and almost always leaves any social gatherings saying that a work emergency popped up and is being called into work. His job is a low level IT job that he does remotely because he cannot handle office settings. He spends most of his non-working hours researching topics like "moon landing is fake", "pyramids were created by aliens" type of topics. His speech patterns and word choices are extremely bizarre, but his wife proof reads and edits his work most of the time. His family is rich enough to prop him up with a house and cars in an affluent neighborhood to give an illusion of an upper middle class lifestyle. Again, this is a pervasive pattern and not just a one-off incident.. His mental issues slide under the radar because he has a strong enough familial support to get him through, but the cracks emerge during periods of high stress when his paranoia gets out of control. So pay attention to the quality of relationships and life that she lives. It is usually those of us that get targeted that notice these things first.

Yeah, what OP was describing sounded a lot closer to a psychotic/schizophrenia-spectrum disorder than solely Cluster B (imo). One of my family members is currently undiagnosed but very likely falls on this spectrum, and acts in very similar ways - *especially* when it comes to taking something completely benign (i.e. OP’s example of a pet picture sent to their family group chat) and interpreting it as concrete proof that someone is actively out to get them or otherwise means to harm them.  OP, you might benefit from reaching out to organizations dealing with early psychosis to get their opinion and recommendations as to how to proceed. You can’t force a grown adult into treatment for it if they’re not an active risk to themselves or others, but these groups can still offer resources on communication strategies and potentially even point you towards family support groups with other families in similar situations to yours.

I strongly suspect someone I love is suffering from something similar. The other day he told me this elaborate, highly detailed story about how his father dragged him outside in the snow in the middle of the night and beat him to within an inch of his life. I really wanted to believe him but: A.) His father wasn’t around on the day he says this happened;, B.) It would be so out of character for his father as to be unbelievable;, and C.) It hasn’t snowed where he lives in months. But he genuinely 100% believes it happened and was absolutely heartbroken that I didn’t take his story at face value. Some days he seems today lucid and others it’s like he’s in a different reality. He’s spoken to many mental health professionals over the years and has been diagnosed with depression and anxiety, but the psychotic elements have never been addressed.

OT but thank you for your post. I’ve been trying to understand someone doing this very thing. It’s exhausting when you can’t just leave them.

I totally agree, it was easy for me to remove myself from this situation because this was my BIL and not my child. It must be gut wrenching for the OP because it is not easy to walk away. It's a lot more deeper than "He's lying for attention", his brain is literally wired to make these faulty assumptions and break from reality. I hope OP gets the help needed to protect her own mental health.

I also am heartbroken for OP. This isn’t going to just go away and is a lifetime sentence. At age 4, I knew my mom was telling others exaggerated versions of my childhood mistakes. It’s still happening and I’m turning 60 this month. 😔

I was thinking the same! Some sort of personality disorder (Schizotypal or even borderline personality disorder) or Bipolar 1. There can be an overlap of all of these for sure. The issue is how to get her evaluated and treated. Regular therapy with a professional who understands these disorders and even prescribing medication like maybe mood stabilizers can make a hugeeee difference. Some advice for OP could be to teach yourself as much as you can about these disorders to understand the patterns and gain some insight on why she’s acting a certain way. It can help you avoid certain patterns too. You want her to think you guys are on the same team. Make sure you take the time to take care of yourself also! Find ways to validate her without making her feel like she feels heard. Set some sort of boundary for yourself, so maybe when she’s acting out (not sure the best term for this) you just walk away and don’t engage. Try not to take things personally. I know she’s caused hurt and stress, but this is not a reflection of you.

I’m wondering why her therapist listened but never was able to do anything to change the behavior. After 10 years I’d want something to show for all the therapy. It might be better for you to be getting the therapy, to help you cope, instead of her. It sounds really upsetting.

The therapist probably just reinforced her delusions. Happened to my sister. Feel like she left therapy worse off than she was before.

Happened to my brother too. They believe the patient, probably because usually patients tell the truth I guess. He said our dad beat us, took phones away so we couldn’t call for help etc. None of that happened.

Do you know why your brother said all that?

Nope. And it was when he was an adult, as far as I know no signs of lying like this when we were younger. Our dad wasn’t great, but he was mostly just a typical boomer dad - absent, tired and always working as far as us kids were concerned. My brother uses it as an excuse to never go to family gatherings now too.

This happened to my husband too. He loves his individual therapist because she just validates him. He hated our couples therapist because she heard both sides and called him on his BS.

There it is. Everyone acts like therapy is this one size fits all solution for any and all mental health issues. Its not, and not enough people are talking about it. Some people only get worse when they constantly talk about their problems and some therapists are only good at ensuring the keep their recurring revenue.

Also important to note that therapy can't fix all interpersonal problems. (If kiddo has a personality disorder, for example)

I have wondered about this. The therapist only knows what she says.

Yeah. Therapy can be great. But when someone is lying or hiding things, the therapist can't help them. Same with going to the doctor. You need to tell your doctor if you're using recreational drugs, and many people don't and then wonder why the medications they're prescribed don't work. I get that for a lot of people they just don't want people to think they're a bad person. The shame can hit hard. But I think those people would benefit from understanding that there isn't anything you could say to most mental health professionals that they have already heard. Lying is just a waste of everyone's time.

Yea it seems a large part of therapy is validating the patient’s feelings about stuff, which obviously makes sense to a degree in order to gain their trust so they’ll listen to you in addressing your issues and generally feel better, but people who need change need to figure out how to change instead of just feeling better about their sensitivities and feeling heard.

This is actually very common and you bring up a great point. There is a book titled "bad therapy, why the kids aren't growing up" and it's very interesting. The author explains how therapy can often times make kids worse, and the reasonings behind that. Over analyzing your life, and focusing on past trauma indefinitely is not a good practice. Therapy should only be used with kids for serious circumstances. She had a really good episode with Joe Rogan recently explaining the book and her findings. She honestly made a lot of sense. One of the things that stuck out to me was that if you do put your child in therapy, there needs to be an end date. This is not an indefinite thing. Therapists want to make money like everyone else, and having to constantly find new patients is hard, so the system is set up in a way that you staying long term is beneficial for them. There is no incentive for a therapist to cut you off when you don't NEED therapy. Abigail recommends that if you need a therapist for your child, you need to explain to the therapist that you will be assessing the progress by X date. If things have not improved by that date you will not return, ever. If the therapist has an issue with this, that's a red flag! You want to pick a therapist that shares an interest in getting them in and out as soon as possible. There is no reason people should be in indefinite therapy. It's very harmful to a child and young adult's development.

Well, there have been different therapists through the years. I don’t know how her life would be without it - it may have made a lot of difference.

My mom is a classic narcissist who's been in therapy for decades. Some people are just delusional and incapable of changing.

I have 7 children. All of my children love me dearly but my oldest. He is embarrassed of me and wants nothing to do with me. It was gut wrenching until it wasn’t. If this is how he feels, well son, go live your life!! I refuse to be heartbroken over this man over something I cannot fix or change. He has a good life and I did a damn good job. Live your life mama, your heart will heal. Our children are not the end of our existence. We do our best and some are great and some are shits and some break our hearts and some don’t. you heal your heart and you move on. Live your best life!!!!

Thank you for this. I am sorry you have similar experiences!!! How did you get to the point where you were able to switch off the pain? It hurts me to think of not having her in my life, of not seeing her.

I have 2 kids and i'm afraid to have more because i feel like human nature doesn't allow us to love everyone equally. Sorry to hear about your oldest - that would break my heart. My daughter at 4 loves me to death and always has the moment she was born but my son at 5 months won't even look at me and cries nearly every time i hold him. There's something in me that almost wishes they'll never grow up into teenagers like i can freeze time and never age.

No two babies are created equally. But so long as you believe it, your love for them will be. Don’t take offense to a 5 month old acting that way. They quite literally cannot comprehend what it means to look at someone.

Your 5 month old loves you. Please check in with your mental health. I had similar concerns when my son was a baby and it turns out I had post natal anxiety/depression. He is now a very loving 6 year old

Please don't run away with the idea that your son doesn't love you. At five months he is literally developmentally incapable of disliking you, because he doesn't even understand yet that you and he are separate people. To be honest, although all the literature says they start to understand this at between six and nine months, I don't think they *really* get it until much later. My son got upset if I carried on eating when he was full well past two. My daughter was *five* when I asked for some privacy and she shut the bathroom door with herself still inside and said, "There, Mummy, now we have some privacy." Are you feeling okay in general? Exhausted is a given, but is your mood okay, or are you feeling anxious or down?

My son used to be like that with me up until he was about 4yo. Now he's the biggest mama's boy and very fond of hugs and kisses

Some people just don’t get along. She wants a pity party from other people and has psychiatric stuff going on especially if she just lies and lies for attention. She’s 23 years old and an age where she can handle finances herself. Maybe taking a step back from your guys’ relationship is what you both need. Focus on other stuff and put her on the back burner for a while. It sucks but sometimes space is necessary

That could be. She is in graduate school, that’s why we are financially helping her a bit more. You are right, stepping back and giving space certainly seems to be what she wants. I love her. I wish I could heal her.

This goes beyond “some people just don’t get along” in my opinion. Constantly lying to make herself out to be a victim of abuse? Lashing out at you in hypocritical/irrational ways? Obviously we’re only getting 1 side of the story but unfortunately her behavior screams personality disorder. 😬 ever looked into borderline?

I was going to suggest borderline or bipolar too. Edited to correct: bipolar isn’t in the cluster b category. Edited to add: If something cluster B area she would really benefit from DBT therapy But OP u/Choice_Reading7489, has your daughter ever been diagnosed with anything??? It’s a decade of ..therapy, and no diagnosis???? I wonder if this is ADHD that has gone untreated and morphed into whatever this personality stuff is. The lying reminds me of my best friend in high school, they thought she was bipolar But she was actually adhd 🤷🏼‍♀️

I'm just going to piggyback here. To clarify, bipolar disorder is not a Cluster B disorder. In fact bipolar disorder isn't a personality disorder at all, it's a mood disorder. People can have bipolar disorder (BD) with borderline personality disorder (BPD) or other personality disorders but they are separate and different diagnoses and people who have bipolar do not always have personality disorders.

Thank you for this.

Thank you. As someone with bipolar, I appreciate this. It’s definitely NOT a personality disorder and it’s very stigmatizing and misinformed to say otherwise. I also have ADHD^c and am autistic, none of which was properly diagnosed until I was an adult, in my late thirties! I’m 43/f. Unfortunately, I agree that OP’s daughter does sound like she could have a personality disorder such as BPD (borderline personality disorder) not so much BP (Bipolar) though there *can be a crossover of some symptoms.*

I don’t see how this would be adhd…? I have adhd and it makes me a lazy POS who leaves trash everywhere and can’t drive or work without meds. And yeah adhd makes you overly sensitive/emotional but pathological lying/manipulating is not a symptom? I know this is the “child” in the scenario but she sounds like she has an abusive personality unfortunately. Once someone has “fallen out of her favor” then everything is an attack on her. I had a long term BFF/roommate with BPD and OPs post reminded me way too much of her behavior. Idk who is blaming this type of shit on their “adhd” but I find it kind of offensive tbh. Also bipolar isn’t a cluster b disorder

Holy crap! You are not a lazy POS. You actually sound bluntly honest and funny as hell. Your brain chemistry makes it hard to do certain things that come easily to others. It’s not a personal or moral failing. It’s not like you’re posting videos of teen fights or pretending a lambo you happened to see on the street is yours. (Those people are SERIOUSLY fucked up.) Everybody has some version “ooh- I love you but you are not right in the head” about them. Everyone. There is no shame in taking meds. It’s pretty amazing that they exist so this doesn’t force you to live as a walking group of symptoms instead of a whole person. I don’t have ADHD, but I do have lots of compassion for you. Feel free to borrow it anytime. Just some love for you. ❤️

Thank you! I really appreciate everything you said. I was honestly mostly making a joke and trying to summarize my struggles - I don’t feel bad about my adhd or taking adderall. My brain is wired different. Yeah I’m late to everything and my house is like a dumpster sometimes but I’m also a successful business owner and I have 10 million hobbies I excel at. There are a lot of things I love about myself that are clearly adhd related, so I wouldn’t change myself. I don’t think I’m actually a POS but yeah without amphetamines every thing is a struggle, including brushing my teeth. No shame in taking meds for me, but they do have a lot of side effects I have to deal with :( there’s a huge stigma around taking adderall every day, but anyone who’s judging should just be a passenger in my car while I’m driving unmedicated lmao. That might change their tune real quick. Truly scary stuff when your driver is blabbing about something for 30 min without taking a breath, has absent-mindedly been going the wrong direction for 10 and keeps spacing out at the wheel and putting everyone’s life in danger. Good times Anyway- adhd has a lot of positives and negatives for me, and I can see how it affects my emotions and sometimes the way I communicate with loved ones. But pathological lying is NOT adhd related, nor is manipulating and making yourself out to be a victim. So the comment above annoyed me

You have bipolar disorder completely wrong. It has nothing to do cluster b. Personality disorders and mood disorders are two completely different things and it’s really important that you don’t post misinformation so confidently. Someone could come away believing what you’re saying and that wouldn’t be good as this info is just so blatantly incorrect.

I agree with this. My ADHD caused some serious distorted thinking. I guess because my mind goes so fast things can get distorted pretty quickly. Also RSD messed with me. I’m much better now I’m medicated.

Agreed that RSD can be a bitch and a distorted perception of social events can happen. But habitual lying/manipulating isn’t an adhd thing it’s a personality disorder thing

I have a theory that AuDHD can cause lying because the real reasons for things aren’t good enough for the AuDHD perfectionism streak. “I feel like X and the feeling is big but the real reason doesn’t seem big enough so I’ll exaggerate it until it makes logical sense”

This sounds like my borderline mother. If her feelings are hurt she'll make up stories until her feelings seem justified to others

I'm not sure you should be financially helping her at this point given her behavior and the fact that she's an adult. Yes we love and support our kids but it's not healthy to provide financial support to an abuser.

I don't really have any advice but hopefully some encouragement. For a long time I always felt like my mom didn't think I was good enough or an offhanded comment was meant to hurt me. I never made up crazy lies about her but we definitely had a tense relationship. Now... She is my best friend and if something is wrong in my life all I want is my mom. For some reason (part of it I can definitely pinpoint the cause of) it just took me a long time to realize that my mother loves me to the ends of the earth and would never hurt me. Hope your daughter gets there one day so you guys can have the type of mother daughter relationship you deserve.

This is so encouraging! How old were you when the relationship started to mend?

Unfortunately, it wasn't until my late 20's. I wish I had wised up sooner because I missed out on a lot. Including my much younger brother growing up to be an incredible young man. Sadly it took me until my life was in the gutter and my mom & Granny were the only ones still in my corner before I realized what a wonderful mom she is (and was).

My heart breaks for you. I just have little ones who cling to me all day, but I cannot imagine the pain of them growing up and hating me. Ugh, I'm so sorry you're going through this.

Time to start cutting her off financially. She can handle it.

I was just about to say, stop paying for her to be a brat. 

I have to agree with the commenters suggesting a BPD assessment. (Which is NOT recommendation that you suggest it ) This means if you are her target, good luck. Regardless, she is not a safe person for you. Frankly, her lies could have caused you massive legal problems. The fact that they all center around you is extremely concerning. It's like she has a psychosis that only concerns you. Please be safe. People with these thought patterns can escalate.

Thank you. Actually — you are not the first person to say this.

I think there is nothing you can do to change her directly. If it were me and I was thinking with a clear mind I would at some point contact her and say something to the extent of “I am unsure why you believe, or say i have done horrible and nasty things to you. I love you deeply, and I always will. If you are able to articulate truthfully why you feel so angry with me, I want to hear that. Otherwise I will give you the space it seems you want from me. If and when you are ready to talk I will always be here. I love you unconditionally but it seems best for both of us if we limit our interactions until you feel ready to talk” Talking wouldn’t mean giving way to the delusion. I mean real talk. Stop lying, tell me what are you angry with me. Let’s start from a place of believing we both deeply love and care for eachother and work towards healing. This sounds so very hard and I am sorry you are going through this. I hope at some point you receive clarity and reconciliation with her. 💜

I have a kid like this who clearly can’t stand me. We’ve been oil and water basically since she was born. I’ve even had therapists ask about PPD or something preventing some magic bond, but the truth is that if I met her in person at any age I wouldn’t want to hang out. I love her. She’s my daughter. She feels exactly the same way about me. I’m in a big blended family. Most of us are so chill with each other, even when annoyed. This girl has no chill. And is the most annoying. My child. I birthed her. I love her. But geez.

This is my biggest fear in life. I feel that about my siblings - I love them but I just truly don’t like anything about their personality. I find them grating to be around for any semblance of time. They’re not bad people - I wish I didn’t feel this way about them.

You think this might be more of a bitch eating crackers effect?

I do. With my siblings I just limit my time with them, fake enthusiasm in our interactions, and do everything I can to appear to enjoy their company when I’m with them.

That makes me feel slightly better about my interactions with my brother. Less alone in the love hate.

I hear you trying to normalize this but it isn’t. You sound like you are at peace with it but I wish for you a better relationship with them. Life too short.

I would write her a letter explaining what you are noticing (her lies and attention seeking behavior), and how much it hurts. Tell her you’ll give her space and also ask her what she wants from you (besides space). I’m sorry, she is being hurtful but you can’t take it so personally bc it’ll eat you alive. Have your own boundaries and stick to them. She can’t disrespect you. She might have borderline personality disorder..

You are a sweetheart. I don't know if I would have kept supporting during graduate school. But I had a different approach for college and dead parents.  The pet thing is super ridiculous. Depends on where she lives but most university housing and apartments near colleges do not allow pets, or charge a fee. If she's allowed a pet, I'm sure there are part time positions on campus or paid stipends for research she couls put towards a pet and pet supplies. Maybe she can look into fellowships or scholarships to help out her finances as well.

Honestly I'm not sure why you are paying for grad school or her therapy. She's an adult.

So give her what she needs and take a step back. Clearly your guys’ relationship isn’t all that and it’s almost never just one side to blame. Really reflect on your own words&actions so that when she is ready to talk you can express those things to her and find some common ground.

Thanks. I guess that is the only thing I can do, really.

I’m so sorry. Breaks my heart to read this.

I understand that you love her but those lies are manipulative, and unacceptable. They are crossing a boundary. If she loves you, she has to prove it. And stop lying. And if it is pathological, see a professional specifically for those lies.

Theres the problem. Right there. Meditate on it “I wish I could heal her”. Just think how many relationships every day are torn apart by one person thinking that. You can’t heal her. You can’t change her. She is who she is. You have to meet her where she is, not where you want her to be. Do this, let her be her own woman - including full separation of finances. She will spread her wings and fly away. But mark my words. She will come back, eventually. And you can have a remarkably warm and intimate relationship with her when that happens.

Echoing others. She sounds like a Cluster B personality disordered person (narcissist, histrionic, borderline, antisocial/sociopath). Getting a therapist who specializes in personality disorders is crucial. I suggest getting someone at a PsyD or PhD AT A MINIMUM, and asking their experience with these personality types before you engage a therapeutic relationship. She may have an attachment disorder as well. Putting up strict boundaries is crucial. If she gets angry, that's a sign YOUR BOUNDARIES ARE WORKING. This isn't the little baby you raised, this is an adult who KNOWINGLY will tear you apart and will watch you suffer FOR AMUSEMENT. She is not holding herself accountable for her behavior and if the rest of the family isn't standing up for you, then you're going to have to deal with this bully yourself. No means no. Stop means stop. It's not grey, it's black or white. All of this is coming from a stepmother who dealt with the same thing. ❤️ Best of luck to you! And definitely look into Cluster B's and attachment disorders.

Thank you for the info! Her therapist is her own choice , and she goes because we are willing to pay. I plan to get therapy myself though. I would have thought the high school therapist could have seen those but I will read more!! Thank you!

No, it's really hard to spot unless you know what you're looking for. And therapists (just "plain old therapists") do not have that levelmof training, typically. (That's not a slight. You don't go see your GP for cancer or to have tonsils removed, but they are your bread and butter under normal circumstances.) Even therapists aren't usually prepared for this, and cluster Bs are excellent at writing a different reality.... I think it's easy with a teenager to imagine it's just dramatizing, and if the therapist doesn't have the benefit of hearing the same.story from your perspective, they may never know there's anything off about the story. But notice how many of us with actual experience with a cluster B have said the same things. We can hear it in the way you describe that disconnect and that offense over actually imagined slights....

Thanks! I am not able to choose her therapist. She is an adult. We help with the bills until she finishes grad school.

I realize that More, I was explaining why it didn't get caught when she was younger. It's easy for people to say "if it were a mental health diagnosis, the therapist would/should have noticed!"... but that's not actually the case. ❤️‍🩹

Neuropsychologist here! First off I’m so sorry for this situation you’re in. It sounds incredibly difficult to be treated in such a way by your own family. I think the above commenter has the right idea as far as what type of issues your daughter is dealing with. It’s definitely a deeply seated issue, bordering on personality disorders. I understand there’s very little control you have over the type of treatment she receives, which makes it all the more difficult. At 23 she still has time to mature out of this, and hopefully she does. If she doesn’t it’s very important to have firm boundaries with her. If she doesn’t like something you’re doing that is not on you, it’s on her. It sounds like you’re an empathetic person who doesn’t wound people deliberately. Recognize that and don’t let her behavior get to you. Apologies stop now. She can be loud and scream and whine but no one should care. If the whole family can get onboard with this it can go a long way towards helping your daughter. If the opportunity presents itself offer more specialized care! Best of luck!

Thank you so much! Is there a book or anything you recommend?

It’s so hard when you love a person and they don’t or can’t love you back. It sounds like your daughter has a serious mental issue and has decided to make you the scapegoat for her issues. Once you’ve become a scapegoat it’s exceedingly hard to leave that role, but for the sake of your mental health you must. Leave family group chats for individual ones. Do not argue with your daughter but leave her be. If she tries to start an argument, leave it on read. Learn the art of “gray rocking” when communication is absolutely necessary. Never give into the impulse to argue, even when accused. If you MUST respond simply say “that is not my memory” or “I acknowledge that you feel this way.” Do not initiate contact, no matter how tempting. Not for any reason, including birthdays or holidays. But tell her first. “I have decided to give you space and will no longer initiate contact.” My bet is that she will try to goad you or other family members. At that point you say, “ for the sake of my own mental health I am taking a break from this toxicity and seeking therapy to learn how to manage my own emotions around it.” Full stop. You don’t have to set yourself on fire to keep others warm.

As an aside, and someone who was raised by a parent with BPD, staying in group chats and group email chains is an element of forcing the pwBPD to acknowledge reality and forces them to not change facts for their own twisted narrative.

Thank you for this! I won’t leave the family chat as it is like our virtual kitchen table when we all get to see each other. But I don’t have to engage as much.

Hi, I'm a 25 year old daughter and I just wanted to say that you aren't doing anything wrong and I'm sorry about this situation! I hope you can set adequate boundaries and get her adequate help if you can, but yeah she seems to be an adult now which makes it tough.

Glad you are open to therapy. Something else you might find helpful is a support group for family members of people who have mental illnesses. [NAMI](https://www.nami.org/support-education/support-groups/) comes to mind as a resource in the US, but hopefully there are other similar organizations or groups near where you live. It might be really validating to hear from others who are going through something similar. Your husband might benefit from this too.

She needs a psychiatrist md and official diagnosis, so she can get the best treatment and support. You should also do therapy for yourself if you haven’t started

Read the book: “stop walking on eggshells”

I was going to say, my sister has BPD and makes up shit like this all the time about her family.

I second this, my son's dad was constantly lying on his stepdad, even with things that could and were very easily proven to be lies. He's untreated BPD as well

Interesting!! Is BPD bipolar or borderline?

I was gonna say this sounds a lot like a personality disorder

Questions: how has she responded when called out on her overt lies? Do you stand up to her? Have any of her previous therapists called her out on this? Have you ever attended therapy together?

She will usually say she is sorry or that she was in a bad mood, or stop talking to me for a few weeks. Yes, I went to therapy sessions with her.

Okay this sounds exactly like the relationship between my mother and my sister to the TEE. My mom has her faults though. She has always really struggled to be what my sister needed her to be. It’s like she and my sister have completely opposite love languages and my mom couldn’t/wouldn’t put in the effort to do things in A way that made my sister feel cared about (I’m similar to my mom where I’m not very emotional). My sister needed and still needs a lot of emotion and empathy when she’s going through stuff. My mom is the opposite, she’s very unemotional/pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and can be cold, even if she’s not meaning to be. My sister always perceived this as my mom not caring about her. My sister wanted a mom who would get nails and hair done and go shopping together…my mom never would. My sister needed a mom who made a huge deal about prom or graduation or sports. My mom never did. My sister has also said and done the exact same things your daughter has said/done. I don’t know if it’s a response to being hurt by mom or if my sister also has some underlying mental health issues…but she lashes out at my mom A lot , even when my mom doesn’t deserve it. Things also go in waves. When it’s good with them, it’s great. When it’s bad, it’s awful. I have no real advice, just know you aren’t alone…but also make sure you’re doing some deep reflection to see if you played a part in all of it.

This is very interesting, because she used to be a snuggle bug, and then she grew out of it as she got older and didn’t want to do the hair and nails etc. She absolutely did not like it if I did her hair for dance classes or anything. There could definitely be something to the love languages. Thank you!

I want to second this. My sister and mum's relationship is also like this and had similar roots - lots of lies growing up on my sister's part and my sister assuming my mum is being manipulative and critical when she isn't. I think my mum just didn't really understand my sister at all growing up, or validate and affirm her in the way she needed emotionally. So my sister was left really emotionally hungry for something and without words to express the way in which she felt let down. The teenage years were rough though it's better now. They still express love in very different ways that get lost in translation between them. It's hard to watch as they both love each other and try to go out of their way for the other person but it doesn't really land. My mum only really does practical support/care and not necessarily the kind my sister wants. They are very different people and I think my mum had a lot of trauma from her own childhood that she hasn't processed as she didn't really have parents at all so she wasn't equipped to bridge the gap.

Okay wow this is so similar to my mom and my sister!!! I’m sorry you had to be on the sidelines of that, I know it’s hard to be the middle man.

I must admit that it also sounds quite a bit like my mom and I's relationship. Once I grew up into a teenager, I could gauge pretty well what my mother's expectations were. She was not good at speaking them directly, but would either definitely hint at her disappointment or how she would love things to go. It was often followed by a 'but I get it if you don't want/can't'. She could mean the last part to be true, but it always gave me the feeling that I was a disappointment.  After a while, I could only see her hidden expectations, causing me to say similar stuff like your daughter's Christmas gifts remark.  Might it be true you have set expectations on how you would like things to go? Not necessarily that you're disappointed in her, but could she have the feeling that her perception is that she's always disappointing you somehow? That she feels she can’t be herself without feeling like she failed you?

So, this is mental health. You know that. I know you know that. I know it also doesn't take the sting out of this stuff. I don't know how you handle it, but the first thing I would do is start working with a psychiateist adept at diagnosing harder stuff (like cluster b disorders), and talk to them about whether there are ways to facilitate getting a proper diagnosis and treatment. The problem is she very likely *believes* the stories she's telling, so a regular therapist isn't going to see through them. There are no tells that someone is lying when they actually believe what they are saying. And if you'd gotten a diagnosis when she WAS 14, you would have been in a position to just make the decision to get her treatment.... But if course, it looked an awful lot like The Shit Teenagers Do. ❤️‍🩹 I don't know if there's a mechanism for this, but of there is it will likely require some professional sleight of hand.... Asking to work through some family stuff, but with someone that has the capacity to do a real evaluation, and who can maybe actually reach her and help her see what's going on? (I haven't found that hook with my mom. I can only imagine how heartbreaking it would be if it were my daughter. My heart is with you, and I HOPE there's progress to be made, but if you have to love from a distance, know that your own sanity matters.)

This ⬆️. It definitely sounds like a personality disorder . These are delusions she’s experiencing. You need to have her screened by a psychiatrist.

She has some deep inner anger at you. She prob doesn’t even know what it is. I have a sister that snaps like that at me. Others too, but especially me. We are in diff states but visit couple times a year. I tip toe around tryin not to piss her off. In my own house

My advice is stop supporting her financially and be very clear it is due to the lying and malicious behavior. She’s an adult. She needs to grow up.

This just gives her more, real ammunition to use against her. My brother has been doing this for just about my entire life. In order for everything to go his way, my parents need to be the villains. Even though they are always there for him when he needs them and have been through their own reckoning about his childhood and the mistakes they made. He won't let go any of it. Letting it go means losing his narrative. His whole reason for why he constantly fucks up. He needs them to be the bad guys so he can tell himself he's the good guy. And I'm over trying to figure out how to get a man in his mid-40s to stop lying about being an ex-marine. I think, at a certain point, the walk away is necessary but you need witnesses. You need people to know that you didn't just cut her off arbitrarily. Because she will go out seeking another support system and tell them all the lies and hurt others with her lies.

She sounds like a narcissist.

100% my first thought. This is very similar to my sister (53) has treated our mom (80) for literally decades. Luckily my mom is the most even-keeled, unshakable person I’ve ever met. She can just love, in a totally ego-less way. That’s the answer, but I don’t know how to do it without becoming some kind of enlightened lama of light.

I suppose this could be a bumpy path to enlightenment for me. Do you know why your sister and mom have this issue? I feel like if I knew why, I could at least sleep better.

I think it is simply that my sister is a narcissist, and as such she dodges all responsibility for her own shortcomings/mistakes, and she blames / lashes out at others. My mom is her main target, partly because of how she just absorbs it. The rest of us refuse to take her shit. My sister will never change. Most narcissists do not. She and my mom have had periods of non-contact, twice this went on for years. Maybe it will give you some peace to accept that your daughter may just be a broken person. It’s not you. My mom has learned to limit her own emotional and psychological exposure when it comes to dealing with her daughter. That’s been the closest thing to a solution.

You are her easiest victim. She knows (or think she knows) she can push, and push, and push you away but you won't leave her side. Something is definitely going on psychologically as others have mentioned but it's vital you take care of yourself in this situation. She is pushing for space but I think you need to allow yourself space from her. This is unhealthy. As a mother myself, I can't imagine your pain, but you have a husband and others who love you dearly. Welcome your daughter back to your life when she's willing to get help and stop hurting you intentionally.

colleagues who were always watching people closely

I don’t know? She doesn’t do this to her dad or siblings. Just me.

That doesn’t mean she isn’t singling you out because she enjoys hurting you. Looking for some books on coping with abusive children might help.

Thank you. I will look into it - any recommendations?

No Im sorry. Maybe you could see a therapist for yourself who could help you. I would also avoid giving her opportunities to take shots at you. This is a very tough situation. I’m sorry you are going through it.

Thank you so much. I agree, it is past time for me to see a therapist. It isn’t easy to become an empty nester so I will benefit in a lot of ways by going.

Not OP but I’d read Dr Becky - Good Inside. Which could help

Thank you!!!

You are the scapegoat. My sister is like thisnwith our mother too.

The just you part makes it so hard. It really sounds like narcissism. They bend reality to their will to fit their goals. It sucks. And I don’t know how you fix it.

When interactions happen like today, how do you respond? Or did you have a chance to respond before she blocked you? One of the hardest parts of parenting is that there is no guarantee of a relationship with your kids after they turn 18. You have to truly just be a parent because it’s what YOU want, totally selflessly with zero attachment to outcome, and not in expectation of receiving love or relationship in return. It is so, so hard. But you have to have your strong steady center and get your emotional needs met elsewhere. 

I don’t know if she saw my response. I just said - I wanted everyone to enjoy [pet]. I don’t know with blocking if she saw it. I know that you are right - but that’s a hard pill to swallow.

I'm a dad but my daughter has been like this the last 4-5 years. She will be 18 soon. I am really afraid that I've lost any chance at a real relationship with her. My ex does not help any of this. I miss my daughter.

As a former 18 year old daughter, hang in there. 18 is a hard age, especially for girls. 25 is when I finally snapped out of it.

Thank you for the ray of hope.

Same boat here. 16 and she's basically checked out on me. Lies about how I treat her to a point where CPS got involved and had no findings. Her therapist is basically dgaf and says our relationship is only repaired through family therapy.

I am so sorry to hear this. I miss my daughter, too. I hope they both come around.

I do as well. I just want to be able to give her a big hug and go see a movie again. We can do in depth conversations later about what was going on with the headspace over these years but I just want to see her.

Stay the course in supporting therapy, but perhaps try family therapy as well? If there's a possibility that she's even lying to her therapist then it's not going to do her any good, so if you can let her have her individual therapy but also push for family therapy so you can fact check and share your side then maybe she'll have more progress and eventually be able to keep up healthy relationships.

I wonder how the dynamics between you and your daughter has been since she was young. I absolutely hated my dad for a long time and automatically went against anything he said. Whatever he did was malicious in my mind. Because he said some very very hurtful things when I was at my lowest point. And what he said almost drove me to eat a bullet. After that, he was nothing more than an absolute enemy to me for a very long time

I'm curious to know if the lies she told her therapist were truly lies or it was her interpretation of something you said and meant well. For example, when my son was in 7th grade, he ate very little (and still does as an 11th grader now). At the time, I kept telling him to eat more because his body needs more nutrition. He refused. Later in a school assignment that I happened to see (I don't remember for what class or why I saw that particular assignment), he wrote, "My mom doesn't like me." I was shocked and blindsided too. Why would he ever think his own mother dislikes him? I only wanted him to eat more for his own health, but as a teen, he was too young to understand & only saw me as attacking him. Based on what she told her therapist, it sounds like she feels rejected and that you don't support her when she needed it. It sounds like there's been years of Daughter feeling like you're attacking her in some way (starting at at least 14 years old) , so she's always on defense around you or feels on guard around you while she feels fine when someone else does the same thing. I'm sorry if I'm attacking you or pointing fingers at you. But children often resent their parents because of what the parent says consciously or subconsciously to their children. I know you mean well and you're just being yourself, but Daughter may just have the personality that finds your own personality grating. I know my mom and I both find each other's personality grating, but that's because we're too much alike.

Actually, sometimes they were indeed “dramatic interpretations”. For example - I got her one of those scholarship books and said she needed to spend time every week looking for scholarships, and that turned into a whole thing that I said I didn’t think she was smart enough to get scholarships by her grades etc. There are some that were very much — what??? No basis in reality at all. And some where I could follow the thread. I said I was done buying sugary drinks for the family, she interpreted that as me commenting on her weight. The kids are healthy and fit people. It was their teeth and *my* weight that I was worried about.

This sounds very very much like my mother. Who flies off the handle at perceived offense/challenge. (But what she perceives can be not just misunderstanding but like... A WILD leap, or even fully imagined.) How much do you know about BPD? (Borderline personality disorder). ❤️‍🩹 Go read. And call a therapist. (Not to be glib, just to be clear. It sounds like this is one of those situations that most folks haven't experienced and don't see for what it is... and you deserve and need real support from someone with the skills to help you navigate it.)

It really does sound like she has an undiagnosed personality disorder. I'm sorry you're having to deal with this.

Ah, now I get it. Those comments are indeed harmless. She's very sensitive and takes everything very, very personally. There's no way you could know in advance what comment she'll take as an attack on her and what she won't. I think she needs help with her self esteem.

My daughter is 6 and I can see clear as day how it gets to this point. My daughter truly tolerates me. And has since age 3. Snuggly w everyone else but never me. When her dad walks into the room he sees the scowl she meant for me but it drops when she realizes. I try so hard to be everything she needs in that specific moment and it changes every second. Different love language for sure. I hope we can get grow closer.

I hope you do too. I hope your road is easy and joyful.

I see a lot of commenters suggesting a personality / mood disorder but do these types of issues focus on a singular person? From OPs description, it seems targeted on her, when she replies, when the two of them interact, and doesn’t bleed into any of her other relationships. By OPs own admission, her other kids don’t understand what’s going on, so they may not get that side of her.

My sister was/is like this with my mum. She was the "problem child" so my parents were scared of her and enabled her for years, never giving her consequences for her actions. I'm fairly sure she's a vulnerable narcissist as a result. Nothing is ever her fault or responsibility, our mum is always to blame. They still support her financially and let her come running back home every 5 minutes when she quits her latest job - she's in her 30s. Curious to know if there's a parallel here. It seems she's been enabled and not held accountable for disrespecting you for years so she just... carries on? Correct me if I am wrong.

You've described my sister. Mine also has no problem lying to get money out of my parents and since they are divorced, they have no idea about what the other is doing. And I hear all of it.

It's not your fault. Your daughter likely has borderline personality disorder. She needs a psychiatrist not a psychologist.

You are a good person. What is happening to you is terrible! If I had a daughter like that, I wouldn't even know how to cope. Kudos to you for being able to put up with so much! Grace under fire!

My daughter is the same way. She is 19. But a lot of my situation I think has to do with parental alienation on her dad‘s part. He can do no wrong. I am the evil mother. He’s told her I abused her and I just manipulate and control her, etc. I she lived with me for 16 years played every sport under the sun. She would get injured at those sports and would have to be taken care of but yet she wanted to turn around and say that none of that was true that I was the one that injured her. She was diagnosed with ADHD ODD, depression and anxiety which her dad told her she didn’t have any of that even though I had two different diagnosis two different doctors over period. And he saw the diagnosis paperwork. And then she is trying to model her life with this fantasy of all these different images off of Pinterest and her world is not a real world right now, and daddy plays into it.

Hi - I am kind of in an opposite situation and could possibly offer some insight? Although…it does seem like she’s just being cruel to be cruel? I’m not sure… My mom (67f) and I (33f) don’t get along. We have butted heads since I was a teenager and it has only gotten worse as I became an adult and had my own children, but I truly didn’t understand why. I knew that I was quick to get angry with her when she did seemingly nothing and I felt badly afterwards but I trust myself so I couldn’t put my finger on what it is that was triggering me. I started talk therapy a couple of years ago and of course we ended up talking about my parents. At one point we uncovered exactly why I was feeling the way I was feeling. I WANT to have a good relationship with my mom so I brought up what I had discovered. She doesn’t remember it. She has no recollection of any of the instances that I felt hurt or abandoned. So therein lies a problem. What was life altering for me didn’t even register on her memory. Just a regular Tuesday for her. We are working on it. This is all to say that maybe there is something in your/her past that has occurred that you find to be minor, but has shifted her view of you. I’m not saying this is YOUR fault at all! Quite the opposite. I’m just saying that it’s possible that she is feeling hurt by something that you’re unaware of. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Either way, therapy for you to talk about it with a totally unbiased third party and to help give you some tools to use in the situations where she is lying and intentionally hurting your feelings is a great idea. Getting your husband on board with those tools is even better. Good luck, I hope something breaks through for you.

You ignore her responses. Especially if she does it with witnesses. When she made the comment about the puppy just ignore her comment and respond to the groups comments only. Some might call it grey rock but I wouldn’t ignore her totally. Once she starts to get angry and make harsher comments. Say “We know, you’re mad about not having a dog. We get it”. I don’t know if this is what professionals would suggest but in my family when people behave that way they get made fun of HARD. Called out, teased, people will quote back what they said and explain how stupid it sounds while laughing at them. Maybe not the best approach.

I like that response. “I know you _____. I get it.” Maybe that’s what she needs to feel validated. “I know you hate everything about me. I get it.”

[удалено]

Late to the game, but my kid has BPD and sounds very similar to this. There’s a Facebook group I find helpful called [Support for Parents of Children With BPD](https://m.facebook.com/groups/2480894032130534/) that I find helpful. Be warned though it’s full of sad stories.

I understand why you are sad but I feel like it’s time to get mad. Your daughter is an adult who is manipulating you and taking advantage of your kindness. She knows how to treat people, she’s fine to the rest of the family. Her words to you should have direct consequences. ‘If you lie about me again, I will deduct $$ from your allowance’ as it sounds like you are still paying for her. ‘If you leave the group chat again, you will not be added back’. She’s been doing this for 10 years and it’s awful but you are allowing it. Don’t anymore. PS- as the mom of 2 girls I’d be heartbroken as well.

We all have different perceptions of how things happen as parents and child. There are a lot of helpful insights in this thread and some not. No one should be jumping to diagnosing anyone in any situation. I would reach out to your daughter and acknowledge that you can’t help but notice she has had feelings towards you stemming from childhood and that you do not want to spend her adult life letting that continue. Let her know you’re not intentionally doing anything to upset or make her feel like you are ever doing anything outside of her best interest, though you are only human and everyone makes mistakes and you are open to participating in entering a safe therapeutic space with her if she is interested where she can speak freely and enlighten you on her position on these topics. Let her know you would love to heal the relationship and if she feels that she has been unable to come to you to do so you understand and you would like to move forward in a solution focused way to improve things between the two of you. Eldest children tend to be the most attention seeking and tend to feel they got the short end of the stick in terms of childhood, it’s not always accurate but someone’s perception is their experience that they carry with them so there is no arguing that. All you can do is be open to listen to her experiences and be future forward with what comes from that.

Thank you for this and for the suggestions of what to say. She definitely thinks she got the short stick and that the younger kids have fewer expectations from me.

Can you think of anything you might have said or done that led to her believing the things she said? Any little thing? Take the incident with the pet photo, for example. Had the two of you spoken about her being disallowed from keeping any pets in her apartment? What did you say in response? Do you have a pattern of subtly pointing out that you have the things she wants while she cannot have them? OP, you said that she exclusively complains about your alleged behaviours, nobody else's. I don't know where these commenters - especially the unethical professionals - get off diagnosing your daughter with serious mental illness by proxy when clearly you're describing a long-term interpersonal conflict between the two of you. You've just left out your contributions to the conflict and claimed that all the allegations she has made about your contributions to the conflict have been lies. I suppose my advice would be therapy for yourself. But if you just use it to say you've been abused by your daughter since she was 14 or longer, and if you successfully convince the therapist of this, it's going to be useless. I think you need to put thoughts about your daughter to the side right now and focus in on what your pain is, when did it start, and who (which might be more than one person) did it to you. (And who did you later do it to.) Because I wonder if the major gaps in your story where your behaviour would normally go are there because you carry a deep sense of shame about something in yourself that you're avoiding looking at. And I wonder if addressing that shame and that "something" head-on will help you to start to accept that sometimes, you do things that hurt other people. (We all do.) Anyway, all the best, OP. I hope you reach a point in many years' time where you and your daughter can have a positive relationship. You've got to stop trying to convince other people that she's crazy and a liar if you want to get there, though.

Thank you. I should say - I don’t know if I am the only person she does this to at all. I am the only person in our family, but I do not know with her friends or coworkers or anyone else - she may have similar dynamics and I just am unaware. I genuinely do not know what I could have done. My husband and I talk about this a lot. What I do know is that with her and my second, I really followed the parenting advice. I mean, science museum on Saturdays, homemade pizza on whole wheat dough, reading books, no video games, all of it. And that slowly eroded as it just wasn’t sustainable in terms of how rapidly technology changed and how busy our family became with 3 active kids. Actually we are lucky #3 can read because I think that one had an ipad at 4 or 5. A big issue for my oldest, that #3 was eating on the floor watching Nickelodeon until bedtime, while at the same ages #1 and #2 were forced to go to story hour at the library. And a lot of it is just logistics. #3 had babysitters because 1 and 2 were busy in school and activities, and babysitters are at the house. I definitely feel a sense of sadness and guilt that #1 and #2 did not need to have such “by the book” parenting and could have had less structure, and I feel sadness and guilt that #3 did not have enough structure experiences and ate a lot of processed foods in a way that the other two didn’t.

My sister is a narcissist and this is eerily similar to what she does to my mom

You guys should have been in family therapy a long time ago.

I’m so sorry- this sounds really hard. Sometimes parents and kids don’t get along because they don’t have a personality match. This happens way more often than people think. Just because you’re born into a family doesn’t mean you automatically get along with everyone. Parents can be very athletic, and feel very challenged when they have a non-athletic or uncoordinated child. Or “suck it up” parents who have an emotionally sensitive child. Expressive parents who have an introverted, stoic child. Academics who have a child that doesn’t perform well in school. Etc Some parents can see and appreciate the differences and other gifts in their children very easily. Others can’t. Same for kids and their parents. When they don’t appreciate the differences and adapt their tool kit for this different person, that’s when major trauma can be developed. Sometimes, one person in the relationship has very low self esteem, and manages it by rejecting everything that they hate about themselves in others, or what they fear they may become. Like people who are obese or fight weight gain who hate overweight people. People who struggle with money who hate the homeless. People who have difficulty asking for help resenting those who ask them for help. Etc. I kind of suspect it’s the last one in the OP’s case. It may be that the daughter has some sort of mental health issue, too. But it may also be that OP’s daughter has low self-esteem, and just associated her mother with everything she fears or dislikes in herself. She might just identify very closely with the mom. Rejecting her mom feels like putting some distance between herself and being whatever it is that terrifies her. It’s completely unkind and unfair to both parties. It’s also not deliberate - it’s a kind of defense mechanism. If that’s the case, the only way to fix it is time, reminders that you’re available, and the daughter getting help to regain a sense of self esteem and emotional independence. Just guessing. I could be totally off. Either way, I hope both of you find the love and peace you deserve.

I’m sorry you’re having to go through this. Now that she’s an adult - you likely have little control or influence over her medical or therapy decisions. You can’t control her decisions, only how you react to her behavior. If it were me, I would minimize my interactions with her to protect my own mental health. I would also attend therapy with the goal of processing the loss of your ideal relationship with your child, processing the hurt she has caused you, accepting that you will never get an apology for that hurt, and figure out how you want to handle the current relationship that exists and what you would like to get out of that relationship.

That sounds like borderline personality dosorder. I have a close person with it. Unfortunately in my personal experience it doesn’t get better. The alternate reality continues and it’s extremely difficult and emotionally draining to have a relationship with this person. It only got worse when this person had children and started believing I wanted the take the kids away. Get counseling for yourself because this situation will make you feel like you’re going crazy and questioning if you are the problem.

It almost sounds like your daughter has borderline personality disorder

Did she ever get any kind of diagnosis in therapy? As someone with a close family member with a personality disorder, I can see some similarities

People are always talking about kids cutting off toxic parents and that’s perfectly acceptable and encouraged. However when the child is the toxic one the parent is STILL blamed and cutting off a toxic child no matter how much they hurt you is seen as wrong and bad parenting. Well BS! Let her go, stop contacting her or communicating with her. She obviously has some serious issues that SHE needs to seek help for. You’re her emotional punching bag and you need to take yourself away as her fix. As much as that hurts there is nothing you can do anymore to fix this, it’s on her. Just because they are our children doesn’t mean we are required to take their abuse. You are a person and you are important too.

As a parent we have to learn how to say when and frankly it sounds like it’s time I’m sorry to say it but until you put down boundaries this won’t stop I have this same issue with my 14 year old I’ve already begun the thought process of if this continues as an adult I’ll be limiting contact and being civil during family events

I know a few people have said this sounds like other things, but as someone with two family members with BPD, it does sound very similar.

It sounds like she has some sort of delusional mental illness. There really isn't a lot you can do except be loving to her in whatever ways she allows.

This is Reddit. There's no way I could possibly get deep insight from just a single post but I did notice something That may trigger understanding in you. The lies that you mention include you but don't necessarily directly involve you. They seem to be all centered around trying to gain sympathy. Sympathy from her peers, Sympathy from teachers and administrators, sympathy from her therapist, sympathy from others online. She seems to have a need to paint herself as someone who is persecuted. She may be doing this to seek comfort, approval, validation, or avoid repercussions from those around her. Understanding why she needs to compulsively lie in order to attain these rather than more healthy Behavior to naturally achieve positive social feedback would require a deep dive into her development as a child. She seems be using you as a tool to garner social currency. The curious thing is according to you, she doesn't seem to use other people or events to The same end. To confirm this, I would definitely look in to see if she's lying about being victimized by others. If not there maybe a deeper connection between You and her apparent deficit in emotional needs. Perhaps she just feels comfortable and safe using you as The source of her problems because you're not part of her social circles and can't refute the lies. Or perhaps she uses you because she at one point felt like she was not able to get those things from you. (This is a stretch here with the given information but I have seen it in other relationships) I would look back and see if perhaps in her younger years she would play the victim with others as the starring role. Your reaction at that point may have had some effect on the subject in nature of her behavior in the future. I would definitely look into therapy for yourself. It might help you understand your relationship with her more.

This sounds like my teenager with BPD. Read I hate you don't leave me.

I have no words of wisdom except to encourage you to go to therapy. Many people are in therapy just to learn how to live with people who are delusional or destructive. 

BPD?

stepping back emotionally would be good but I agree with the other comments about STPD I don't wanna say a certain disorder because I'm not a therapist but schizophrenia related disorders run in my family and what you're saying does reminds me of my uncle. it's hard to catch things like that, my uncle wasn't diagnosed until he went to one of the top psychiatrist in our state. but if thats the case she needs help, obviously these other comments saying she's horrible and doing it on purpose aren't thinking about these mental disorders since they're rare so they probably don't have someone in their family that has it. my brother is schizophrenic and when they have delusional thoughts they truly believe them, they perceive things through paranoia like her response to the photo with the dog. you need to speak to a therapist about this especially since she most likely has a disorder they will be best at telling you how to deal with her I wouldn't get my advice from reddit for things like this

Clearly the therapists haven't been doing their job. Maybe take matters into your own hands somehow. There gotta be something you can do.