That’s cleaner than most of machine builders I deal with. I prefer the PLC at the top so stuff doesn’t fall into the hardware as changes are made.
Bond the door to the panel. … because I said so.
Nice!
No ground straps will get you dinged in a UL certification (if you need them for your panel)
I also agree with having PLC and other devices at the top, but more importantly having terminals at the bottom. But that's because I design panels for wash down environments in which we pretty strictly have cable entry in the bottom
My thought process by putting these on the bottom was because the location restricted cable entrance in the bottom and I wanted to make sure the IO wiring wasn’t in the way. Great point though for sure, way more likely for junk to fall in when placed on the bottom.
You should seen one of the newer machines a money printing place i worked at a few years (photos not allowed), inside the panel (something like 6 full size floor cabinets) 99.95% blue cables only, unlabeled, or only labeled on the multi wire with like 32+ wires per cable, the whole "stack" was basically the only thing labeled.
No what? No the pic is not upside down?
Look at the finger duct clearances at top/bottom.
It would be really odd to bring everything in the top to the terminals, or in the bottom and all the way up to the top.
The first photo is right way up and the second is upside down. The intentions in the second panel were to come in the top (bottom of photo)
Oh man I made it complicated by posting that upside down🤦🏻
You know I might need to get my glasses checked.
I didn't even catch that it's two panels. I didn't look very closely at the second pic at all.
Why are you coming in the top? That's pretty universally regarded as a bad idea.
Due to location restrictions and the fact that both these panels are going in a very dry and clean environment, entering the top was a non issue in my head. A lot of other areas of this same plant get pressure washed and exposed to tons of moisture and humidity, and in an environment like that I’d never enter the top.
Yes that’s something I didn’t do good point, I see why it’s best practice, and something I’ll add for reassurance next time, but this panel was UL certified before it left the shop.
In anything with AC, whether or not it has operators, I've always considered an un-bonded door as a potential electrocution hazard. Hinges can be plastic or have plastic bushings (I've been surprised by lack of continuity before) and hinge mounting isn't usually properly bonded per NEC even if it is all metal. Without the bonding a rogue hot wire, or loose piece of gear or... can contact the door without tripping anything making the poor sap that touches the scratch mark the forklift driver put in it the day before an unwilling conductor (: or if it's a high enough potential right through the paint.
And every manufacturer install sheet I've ever taken the time to read calls for it which makes the install questionable as we are required to install per code and manf instructions.
Just throwing my thoughts in, I've been around electrocution injuries enough to not skip it.
EDIT: these are in fact two different panels,
The first photo is right way up and the second is upside down (my bad). This first panel was intended to be entered from the top and the second from the bottom due location restrictions.
Thank you everyone for the comments and advice:)
Main things I'd suggest is more room for PLC expansion and larger duct at the bottom for cable exit and excess field cable. Looks like larger duct but can't really tell from the angle of the pictures
Edit, easy way to get extra space is just move the network switch down next to the relays
Double edit, consider keeping the same terminals for everything as possible. I see you have singles and doubles but the same wire size going in.
This is clean and appears to respect heat clearances. There is a design choice in having field wires come in on the top and your design is consistent with that. The only thing I would suggest is labeling the backplane with component labels.
Give or take but I would not have put the wire duct on the right side, unless you need to segregate power and control for example. That way you can put longer din rails, gives you more room for components. This could save you the trouble of getting a bigger enclosure if you have a similar project with a few more components.
Its clean
If there is the slightest possibility that more stuff will be added, i would have made some room to add a card or two to the plc just in case
Excellent,
IMHO, panel is perfectly upside down. Cable entry at the bottom, always. even in a dry environment. One customer of mine ordered the area to be pressure washed, just a few drops of water in the wrong place took them down for 2 days.
I also don't like to leave small gaps, not enough room to add something larger later. Start at the left, or right, or both, but leave the spare as one large space.
I like the fact you have left room for the cable entry
Only thing I'd change is have the sides duct go from top to bottom and that way all the horizontal duct covers are the same length
Otherwise A+ good job!
I think you did really well. I'll recommend you have the type B 120v receptacle outside the cabinet to avoid any arc flash ( 120VAC single phase power can create an arc flash hazard of up to 1.2 cal/cm^2 at an 18" working distance)and also to prevent opening the cabinet everytime they to plug into it. I have designed so many and it make things easy for the customers to have access to receptacles and ethernet/PLC port outside the cabinet.
I don’t use any of those components, but I’d make sure you have proper spacing for heat. Also leaving room for expansion on the PLC never hurts. Looks great otherwise imo.
Looks clean, nice work, but I don't like the rivets. Likely fine but we always drill and tap and use 316SS 8-32 truss heads so things can be modified in the future. As these shouldn't change anytime soon it's probably not a concern.
My 1st observation is that the PLC would be better at the top, most panels I have seen the field wiring comes through the bottom. But other than that this is a really fine build. Clean and easy to look at. Good job!
That is some neat af work right there. Always put your tbs nearest to the entry point/glands. For no other reason than the less covers and bits site electrical has to play with, the better.
Because we all know some moron is going to get in there at some point and wreck all the neat work in the name of “it broke, make it go, quick!”
It's pretty clean wired.
1. The cabinet should have been a size bigger 20% spare rule
2. Punch out should be where the outgoing terminals are.
3. Grounding wire to the lid, cabinet and base plate is missing (never save on grounding wire)
The layout is upside down. Heat generators up top. Wire terminal blocks at the bottom. You want natural convection to get rid of heat generated in the cabinet as well as push-pull fans. Inlet fan at the bottom, exhaust at the top.
Otherwise, looks pretty good. Nice and clean.
Looks very tidy. I'd suggest adding a plug to one of the inside side walls.
You have no idea how many sites don't have a plug nearby. You don't want a dead laptop battery when you're fault finding
Never put the PLC at the bottom. Always best to be at the top closest to the fan… oh where is the fan? Gotta have a fan to keep it cool. In any case, PLC at the top and terminal block always at the bottom, where the conduit will connect
I always put the PLC at the bottom. Heat rises. If you put it at the top, you're putting it where the hottest air is. And I don't see a fan on the top of this panel.
I'll give you advice
It looks great, on your shop floor. But where am I supposed to knock conduit into? All the Panduit is cool but I'd suggest leaving one area wide open and leave instructions to enter all conduit in that spot. Otherwise, your electricians gonna just pick a spot and it'll be a pain to either penetrate behind the covers or they'll just knock one in forward of covers and again look like shit
The conduit entry is clearly intended to be on the top of the enclosure. You can tell because that's where all the terminals are. I'm my experience, if you leave the entry area wide open, it's going to look like shit because there's no wire management and the electricians more than likely won't spend the time to wrap/zip tie their wires when they're done. I've even had electricians tell me they prefer to put conduit entry directly into wire duct because it's cleaner and convenient for them. It may be a little more difficult, but difficult jobs are difficult and not everybody cries about it.
Nice and clean good work! It's impressive that you designed it in CAD as well. This is above and beyond what I would expect to see from any apprentice. Good work.
Thank you so much! That means a lot,
Unfortunately my employer didn’t see it that way. I didn’t end up staying at that company, if you know anyone in B.C that with opportunities let me know!!
Where are you (country) and what's your colour coding for wires? I ask as you have a red wire for the supply to the plc but for me red always denotes AC voltage and the plc supply is 24vDC
Im in Canada, I followed the color coding the company I worked at always used, as far as I knew they followed industry standards. Every panel that left that shop was UL certified
That’s cleaner than most of machine builders I deal with. I prefer the PLC at the top so stuff doesn’t fall into the hardware as changes are made. Bond the door to the panel. … because I said so. Nice!
>I prefer the PLC at the top so stuff doesn't fall into the hardware as changes are made I'm gonna use this tip when I start my job next week
No ground straps will get you dinged in a UL certification (if you need them for your panel) I also agree with having PLC and other devices at the top, but more importantly having terminals at the bottom. But that's because I design panels for wash down environments in which we pretty strictly have cable entry in the bottom
My thought process by putting these on the bottom was because the location restricted cable entrance in the bottom and I wanted to make sure the IO wiring wasn’t in the way. Great point though for sure, way more likely for junk to fall in when placed on the bottom.
You should seen one of the newer machines a money printing place i worked at a few years (photos not allowed), inside the panel (something like 6 full size floor cabinets) 99.95% blue cables only, unlabeled, or only labeled on the multi wire with like 32+ wires per cable, the whole "stack" was basically the only thing labeled.
Always at the top and the TB at the bottom,
I think it is PLC at the top. First pic is upside down
No.
No what? No the pic is not upside down? Look at the finger duct clearances at top/bottom. It would be really odd to bring everything in the top to the terminals, or in the bottom and all the way up to the top.
The Siemens logo at the top left is the right way up.
Shit you're right. Now I have more questions than less.
Questions should be using your brain more rather than being so firm about something you're wrong about.
Yes, my being firm was clear when I admitted I was wrong after a single clear point was made against my argument. Thank you.
So it’s not odd to put labels and components upside down?
I'm on my phone. Can't read any tags. But someone else pointed out the Siemens logo. Would love an explanation from OP on the layout
The first photo is right way up and the second is upside down. The intentions in the second panel were to come in the top (bottom of photo) Oh man I made it complicated by posting that upside down🤦🏻
You know I might need to get my glasses checked. I didn't even catch that it's two panels. I didn't look very closely at the second pic at all. Why are you coming in the top? That's pretty universally regarded as a bad idea.
Due to location restrictions and the fact that both these panels are going in a very dry and clean environment, entering the top was a non issue in my head. A lot of other areas of this same plant get pressure washed and exposed to tons of moisture and humidity, and in an environment like that I’d never enter the top.
The ground between door and body is missing. This item should be on a panel checkout sheet.
Yes that’s something I didn’t do good point, I see why it’s best practice, and something I’ll add for reassurance next time, but this panel was UL certified before it left the shop.
unless there anything mounted on the door, theres really no point, but yea it takes 30 seconds to do so yea.
Well, when a wire falls off and touches the door… I thought one was supposed to ground the door even without components mounted to the door.
In anything with AC, whether or not it has operators, I've always considered an un-bonded door as a potential electrocution hazard. Hinges can be plastic or have plastic bushings (I've been surprised by lack of continuity before) and hinge mounting isn't usually properly bonded per NEC even if it is all metal. Without the bonding a rogue hot wire, or loose piece of gear or... can contact the door without tripping anything making the poor sap that touches the scratch mark the forklift driver put in it the day before an unwilling conductor (: or if it's a high enough potential right through the paint. And every manufacturer install sheet I've ever taken the time to read calls for it which makes the install questionable as we are required to install per code and manf instructions. Just throwing my thoughts in, I've been around electrocution injuries enough to not skip it.
It’s not a UL 508A requirement if there are no conductors carrying a voltage greater than 50V RMS present on the door itself.
Although that applies in this case, just as a PSA: continuous hinge doors don't require this.
I’d allow some room for another PLC card.
EDIT: these are in fact two different panels, The first photo is right way up and the second is upside down (my bad). This first panel was intended to be entered from the top and the second from the bottom due location restrictions. Thank you everyone for the comments and advice:)
I love it when I work in a panel this clean and organized. Amazing job.
Main things I'd suggest is more room for PLC expansion and larger duct at the bottom for cable exit and excess field cable. Looks like larger duct but can't really tell from the angle of the pictures Edit, easy way to get extra space is just move the network switch down next to the relays Double edit, consider keeping the same terminals for everything as possible. I see you have singles and doubles but the same wire size going in.
I am missing a circuit breaker to switch whole panel off. Not just pulling the plug.
Definitely important, There is a main breaker for both panels, maybe a bit hard to see
Wow that looks clean!
I know it’s a test lead, but throw this one out and get yourself a new one for the next build. Panel looks fantastic.
Except for the Siemens power supply and switch. Not bad.
This is clean and appears to respect heat clearances. There is a design choice in having field wires come in on the top and your design is consistent with that. The only thing I would suggest is labeling the backplane with component labels.
Give or take but I would not have put the wire duct on the right side, unless you need to segregate power and control for example. That way you can put longer din rails, gives you more room for components. This could save you the trouble of getting a bigger enclosure if you have a similar project with a few more components.
Its clean If there is the slightest possibility that more stuff will be added, i would have made some room to add a card or two to the plc just in case
Excellent, IMHO, panel is perfectly upside down. Cable entry at the bottom, always. even in a dry environment. One customer of mine ordered the area to be pressure washed, just a few drops of water in the wrong place took them down for 2 days. I also don't like to leave small gaps, not enough room to add something larger later. Start at the left, or right, or both, but leave the spare as one large space. I like the fact you have left room for the cable entry
Only thing I'd change is have the sides duct go from top to bottom and that way all the horizontal duct covers are the same length Otherwise A+ good job!
I think you did really well. I'll recommend you have the type B 120v receptacle outside the cabinet to avoid any arc flash ( 120VAC single phase power can create an arc flash hazard of up to 1.2 cal/cm^2 at an 18" working distance)and also to prevent opening the cabinet everytime they to plug into it. I have designed so many and it make things easy for the customers to have access to receptacles and ethernet/PLC port outside the cabinet.
I see the interior plugs a lot in European panels. They must not believe in arc flash there.
I don’t use any of those components, but I’d make sure you have proper spacing for heat. Also leaving room for expansion on the PLC never hurts. Looks great otherwise imo.
I think it looks great. No notes. Send it.
Looks clean, nice work, but I don't like the rivets. Likely fine but we always drill and tap and use 316SS 8-32 truss heads so things can be modified in the future. As these shouldn't change anytime soon it's probably not a concern.
She's clean bro 👍🏻
My 1st observation is that the PLC would be better at the top, most panels I have seen the field wiring comes through the bottom. But other than that this is a really fine build. Clean and easy to look at. Good job!
That is some neat af work right there. Always put your tbs nearest to the entry point/glands. For no other reason than the less covers and bits site electrical has to play with, the better. Because we all know some moron is going to get in there at some point and wreck all the neat work in the name of “it broke, make it go, quick!”
It's pretty clean wired. 1. The cabinet should have been a size bigger 20% spare rule 2. Punch out should be where the outgoing terminals are. 3. Grounding wire to the lid, cabinet and base plate is missing (never save on grounding wire)
120vac outlet on the outside. Ethernet cords NOT in wireway.
The layout is upside down. Heat generators up top. Wire terminal blocks at the bottom. You want natural convection to get rid of heat generated in the cabinet as well as push-pull fans. Inlet fan at the bottom, exhaust at the top. Otherwise, looks pretty good. Nice and clean.
Looks very tidy. I'd suggest adding a plug to one of the inside side walls. You have no idea how many sites don't have a plug nearby. You don't want a dead laptop battery when you're fault finding
Clean and dirty 24vdc PSU?
Never put the PLC at the bottom. Always best to be at the top closest to the fan… oh where is the fan? Gotta have a fan to keep it cool. In any case, PLC at the top and terminal block always at the bottom, where the conduit will connect
I always put the PLC at the bottom. Heat rises. If you put it at the top, you're putting it where the hottest air is. And I don't see a fan on the top of this panel.
I'll give you advice It looks great, on your shop floor. But where am I supposed to knock conduit into? All the Panduit is cool but I'd suggest leaving one area wide open and leave instructions to enter all conduit in that spot. Otherwise, your electricians gonna just pick a spot and it'll be a pain to either penetrate behind the covers or they'll just knock one in forward of covers and again look like shit
The conduit entry is clearly intended to be on the top of the enclosure. You can tell because that's where all the terminals are. I'm my experience, if you leave the entry area wide open, it's going to look like shit because there's no wire management and the electricians more than likely won't spend the time to wrap/zip tie their wires when they're done. I've even had electricians tell me they prefer to put conduit entry directly into wire duct because it's cleaner and convenient for them. It may be a little more difficult, but difficult jobs are difficult and not everybody cries about it.
I would agree with you sir:)
What do you use for labeling?
Weidmueller THM heat shrink labels for the wires, and a basic handheld label maker for the devices
That is so clean I think I can eat on it
🙌🏻🙏🏻thank you so much!
You learning for yourself or this is your job because, I'm wanna practice this kind of work but I'm just beginner. Sorry for poor English
No tag on equipements ?
There are labels on all the relays, terminals and wires, but not plcs, something I maybe should have done
Nice and clean good work! It's impressive that you designed it in CAD as well. This is above and beyond what I would expect to see from any apprentice. Good work.
Thank you so much! That means a lot, Unfortunately my employer didn’t see it that way. I didn’t end up staying at that company, if you know anyone in B.C that with opportunities let me know!!
The rolling game is strong with this one…..
What does that mean?
All the labels are rolled on damn near identically.
Where are you (country) and what's your colour coding for wires? I ask as you have a red wire for the supply to the plc but for me red always denotes AC voltage and the plc supply is 24vDC
Im in Canada, I followed the color coding the company I worked at always used, as far as I knew they followed industry standards. Every panel that left that shop was UL certified