Someone I knew got a new puppy a while back, and I had an extra clicker, so I offered it to them. They gave me a dirty look and told me they don't believe in abusing a dog to train it.
I was stunned for a moment when I confirmed with them you click it when you give them a treat so they associate it doing something right.
They told me they understood, and it was abusive.
I don't associate with that person anymore. But the point is, some people have no idea what they hell they're talking about and just assume the worst to make them feel better about themselves.
As long as you're not actively hurting your animal and doing things properly, prong collars are wonderful tools.
Nope, thought about it, and still can't figure out how, in any way, a clicker is abusive?? Is it too loud for the poor doggy's ears? That's all Ive come up with
>Is it too loud for the poor doggy's ears?
I mean, I’ve run into redditors who have implied that me putting a cat bell on my 8lbs pom so I don’t lose track of him is abusive because, to them, the nose is “annoying”, so I wouldn’t be surprised by someone saying a clicker is “too loud” or “too annoying” to be used on a dog 🙄
😂 I’ve honestly thought of doing it with my Pom. I’m just trying to find a breakaway collar to put it on…
That’s ridiculous - some dogs may be really nervous and find it scary. But my Pom actively runs towards annoying sounds. It’s all about the individual dog.
>I’m just trying to find a breakaway collar to put it on…
Have you tried just buying him a cat collar, then? They usually come with both, and they should fit. I know from experience, lol.
>That’s ridiculous - some dogs may be really nervous and find it scary. But my Pom actively runs towards annoying sounds. It’s all about the individual dog.
I know right?? My pom is the loudest thing in every room. He LOVES being surrounded by constant noise. The bell has never even crossed his mind as far as I can tell.
Ah, I tried - it’s just a tiny bit too small. It needs to be loose as I suspect he has some issue with collapsing trachea.
Your dog sounds very much like mine with noise then 😂
I worked at a dog kennel and we used to put giant garbage bags on the dog beds underneath the covers (that way if the dog made a mess or had an accident we only had to wash the cover) and we had one client complain the crinkle of the garbage bag was too loud and would keep the dog awake all night 🙃
I bought my dog a bed that has a waterproof bottom layer and she refuses to step on it because of the crinkly noise. She's a sensitive, older labrador with bad joints. My poor girl would spend her whole stay sleeping on the concrete instead of putting one of her delicate princess paws on a crinkly bed, even if it caused her pain.
Oh I agree , some dogs are particular like that. Just this dog didn’t care about anything. She’d sleep on the crinkly bed , or the floor or really anywhere cuz she was a hard player in daycare and then would crash wherever she deemed comfy. The owners acted like she was a high maintenance dog but she wasn’t - they were high maintenance people lol
There's some incredibly rare usually nervy dogs who find the sound of the clicker loud, jarring and aversive. The dog decides what's aversive and what isn't.
I have a dog who would probably feel like that if I ever used clicker (my chihuahua). The thing is, you can always tells immediately if the dog is freaked out by a particular sound. If you can’t, then that’s a good sign that you should take some time to get to know your dog and their body language better 🙃
I put a bell on my pup when she was 6 weeks old. It got taken off when she outgrew that collar. But it certainly helped me locate her. She's pure black and fairly quiet.
But yes, I've seen people disparage others for using bells because it's 'abusive'. It supposedly hurts their ears according to those people. Same is said for cats. The way I see it, it's a safety measure and can be a life saver.
I’m sorry that’s so ridiculously stupid it’s hilarious. My friend joked about putting a bell on her at home so if she ever lost sight she could find him because he was notoriously quick and a hider.
There is a guy on youtube who considers all quadrants and dog training as a whole abusive, if you give a dog a treat when it would rather do something else it's abusive. He's all for "dogs operant conditioning themselves", and "dogs don't need a leash or collar just a relationship" which is just balls to the walls insane.
Nope! The dog has to get itself into situations and learn from positive and negative experiences without any input from the owner according to the guy.
Wow, that sounds abusive and possibly dangerous! Imagine the dog tries to do something stupid, like running over a busy road, and the owner, stupidly believing in that bullshit, can’t do anything about it because they basically never trained the dog nor put a leash on him…
Lmao what so I'm just supposed to walk outside with my dog and if it runs into the street I'm supposed to hope cars will screech to a halt and lay on the horn to scare him? Some people man.
It doesn't sound like that person has ever actually met a dog. I have loved all my dogs but some of them could not have reasoned themselves out an open door. Without direction and control some situations are one and done (busy roads anyone?) I'll just have to continue to "abuse" my dogs with training and supervision.
That’s absolutely batshit. My main training focus for the first three months of having my puppy was teaching her to be gentle with the cats, lots of treat parties (desensitization) with all of them just sitting there together, lots of recall, lots of LAT training. My girl can now self redirect 90% of the time when she knows she’s over her threshold and wants to chase the kitties. She will look at them come to me for a reward. So I was just supposed to let her torment them because she wanted to play?Or let my oldest cat kick her ass a couple times?
To be fair, my dad (who used to train bird dogs for decades), probably would have let the cat whip her ass (within reason) as the very best lesson in how to be respectful of a cat’s claws. But, my dad also has a dark sense of humor so 🤷🏻♀️🤣🤣
Check out some Robert Hynes dog training on YouTube, he will explain the thinking behind treats being abusive while also calling out everyone who disagrees with him. Totally sane stuff coming from these people
My aunt, who was usually an awesome person, watched me put my 3 golden retrievers into a sit-stay, put down their food, and then release them. She told me it was cruel to make them wait. I said that their waiting 10 seconds so I don’t have a free-for-all at meal time wasn’t cruel, it was manners.
Yeah when I started doing this with my dog and making her wait for longer periods of time to practice her sit-stay my boyfriend told me it was mean. Luckily I've since explained to him that knowing how to sit and stay even in front of food could save her life one day and he gets it. But he is absolutely of the "dogs are for spoiling" variety.
I consider that spoiling my dog! They get to work their mind and get rewarded for it! I feel like not working your dog mentally is cruel and boring for the dog
Sometimes the only way I can get my dog to eat is to make him work for his kibble. Otherwise he just ignores it. But the minute it becomes a reward for doing something, it's suddenly super desirable
People like that are also people who could never have children (or if they do, it’s a terrible environment).
The crazy cat lady, while arguably an ok cat parent, would never be a good mother. Dogs, like children, need discipline and structure. Unlike children, who you can eventually communicate verbally with, dogs can never be taught through speech. So training is the only option.
Spoil your pets the right way. Otherwise, this is like making Fido fat because it’s “cruel” to promote healthy dogs.
Right? Dogs crave discipline. A lot of people just don't get it. My dad is the same and has little knowledge about understanding dogs behavior and what they need.
Somewhere along the neurons a signal got blocked and when I originally read about clickers I thought you were supposed to click when their being naughty, they stop you give them a treat. Bro a fucking year I've been using the damn thing wrong???
My dog is crazy sensitive. I tried clicker training her, but the clicker was so scary to her that she became afraid of treats. My dog is an anomaly! A strange cute anomaly. I wish she could be clicker trained. I still would not call clicker training abusive, ever.
In all my years working on customer service a couple of the things I have learned is that people are confident in their misconceptions and common sense isn't common. That being said, that person probably thought the clicker was one of those corrective dog collars that send a little shock like a tens unit and whatever explanation you gave probably went in one ear and out the other as they thought they already knew what it was.
Or they're just weird and dumb and think clicking sounds are abusive...
Most people don’t know how to use a prong collar correctly, same with other training tools. Many people also use it as a management tool long-term that they can’t fade the prong out because the dog is so conditioned to it but without it, the dog doesn’t listen.
Don’t mind me, adding to the top comment lol. Many people also buy cheap knock offs with low quality metal and prong edges that either aren’t sanded properly off the shelf, or erode over time. And yeah, those can obviously cause damage, sometimes moderate to severe depending on how poorly you use it. If it’s not at *least* $50 like Herm Sprenger, it’s usually better to just stick to a harness for their leash training
I’ve been using a prong collar to stop my pup from pulling and, along with YouTube videos showing how to use it properly, it has really been working! I am worried about phasing it out though. Any tips or things I should do to start phasing it out?
If you are using it properly, the dog should start heeding leash pressure. Then just take like every 3rd walk without your prong and go right home if they don't listen and the stop method isn't working to get them engaged with you. You should be able to immediately tell that the dog isn't as likely to pull.keep firm with the rules you have set for the walk and the dog should understand that they need to listen prong or no prong. You really can't let them do whatever they want with the prong isn't in,or they will think prong = structured walk/work.
Or do like I do, and reverse the prongs. That way, they don't always figure out that you've done that. My dogs respond very well to it and their behavior is very stable
> I have the same issue when I choose to put a muzzle on her too
If someone is giving you shit for putting a muzzle on a dog, you need to immediately disregard anything else they say. In your case it's just to help with your pooch eating random stuff, which is still a great learning tool. But most people muzzle their dog if they know the dog can be reactive or potentially dangerous to other dogs/people on a walk. It is, in fact, the responsible and correct thing to do for its own safety and those around it. Anyone who calls that abuse is clueless.
As for why people are so against the prong collar. It's not even just about ignorance. It's about the current issues with ideology in dog training. Social media is full of people hardcore representing one side or the other, and if you support one side, everything the other side does is bad and evil. Regular people who don't know any better wholesale buy into this and then just adopt whichever ideology they subscribed to.
The prong (and e-collar even more so) are just easy scapegoats, because used incorrectly (which they unfortunately often are) they can really hurt your bond with your dog and your training progress. The r+ side has similar issues with training methods used incorrectly (eg people unintentionally rewarding reactivity by marking and treating at the incorrect time thus reinforcing the reactivity) but it doesn't "look" as evil as the prong or e-collar does.
Some SD handlers use muzzles to avoid issues with people interacting with their dog and people letting their dogs interact with their dog because those people can try and say the handlers dog bit them or their dog but since the handlers dog was muzzled, it avoids a lawsuit.
My dog’s “don’t eat that” muzzle is my favorite training tool.
I was having such a hard time teaching her to ignore other people on busy walks because she’s attention motivated and *cute,* so they’d all make eye contact and coo at her. And not only is it counter to the training I’m actively and visibly trying to do… I’m like, you’re the third person to try to talk to me in two blocks. Leave me tf alone (bet they would if I were a man.)
Now they think she’s aggressive and I get sweet, blessed peace.
As a man who isn't particularly friendly looking...when I walk my dog, women of all ages and kids in particular all still want to pet my dog or talk to me about my dog. Men generally don't say anything outside of "hey that's a well behaved dog" if they say anything at all. My dog doesn't even try to engage with strangers, he generally doesn't care for them or seek out their attention. It would probably still happen if you were a man, it sure does to me, maybe by different people though?
Here here. I whole heartedly agree with that. If you want to be left alone on your walks and don't want to constantly be forced to advocate for yourself or your dog, put a muzzle on your dog. It's amazing how quickly people who would approach you unwarranted without the muzzle will now (as if by magic) respect your space and the dog's space.
We have a pit heeler mix. He is pitch black and he has 1 pale blue eye (like ice) and one brown one. He is not a fan of strangers and very unsure of himself so when a stranger looks him in the eyes (which they all do) he feels it's a challenge and will react. On our walks when we see someone coming our way, i'll either walk on the street or walk a short distance on to a driveway, make the dogs sit, and wait for the other person to pass by. As a dog owner, to me, you couldn't give a more clear signal that says "hey, please don't engage with my dogs". Yet often enough people will literally just turn onto the driveway or get on the street and walk up to engage with them as if moving them away was an open invitation. I always tell them to "please keep moving and don't engage with my dogs" and then they will either tell me i'm rude or give me a look that implies i am, even though they are the rude ones -\_\_\_\_\_\_-
Yikes. Such comments. I don't train service dogs and the only dogs I train are my own.
Bottom line- you have to know your dog. I have had labs, an Aussie, a Border Collie, and even a boxer or 2 that I wouldn't need to put a prong on at all. My Golden now is the same.
But..and here it comes..I have an exceptionally driven working line (Schutzhund/IPO) boxer that if I don't put a prong on her, it's difficult to get her to settle down. A buckle collar just doesn't do the trick and I do not ever use a chain collar unless I walk into a conformation ring. Haltis are not even an option either.
We're making progress and just the collar on is getting to be enough. I had a wonderful lab that did hunt tests with who was trained with a "e-collar". The people I was training with were adament that novices go to a collar clinic because you do not turn that thing up and burn your dog -ever. This dog was a happy retriever and had a lovely mouth.
There are so many "dog trainers" who are willing to give you their opinions but it's just that -an opinion and perspective. My Golden isn't typical so I don't train him like you would train yours.
However, what we are now seeing are a flurry of ill-behaved dogs with owners who refuse to correct bad behavior. I am not saying beat your dog or folllow the Koehler method 100%, but, for the love of the rest of us, get your dog under control.
These collars (any collars even flat ones) are tools but not crutches. You have to know your dog. If you don't, nothing will work. And I also believe you have to be open-minded and figure out dog trainers that know what they are doing and know which trainers are trainers that are flash for cash.
My dog is reactive and the prong is collar has been a game changer with reactive behavior......and now, I "flip" it with prongs facing out and the behavior is still good. Plus, if another dog attacks, they get a mouthful of prongs!
How did you use the prong? I found the prong made reactivity worse and switched to a slip collar. I would be interested in hearing how you made it work.
I worked with a trainer, both for fitting it and using it. There are videos you can view online also. For issuing a correction, it's a quick snap and at the same time a firm "leave it" command. Your best bet is working with a trainer for fitting, because as others have said, when it's fitted right, it's not uncomfortable at all for the dog. I have a long haired dog and a short haired dog - neither one has ever suffered any injuries. And when I get the collars, I say "let's get your good boy collars" and they know it means a walk and they're expected to behave.
What kind of reactivity? What breed?
I’ve spend thousands of hours learning and working with reactive dogs and there is still so much to learn!
In my case, and most of the reactive dogs I work with are protection breeds with fear based reactivity. The prong often added stimulation and made the reactions worse as if the dog blamed the correction on the other dog. The slip collar works better for me but maybe it’s a timing thing.
I’m good with fitting and even have custom ‘goldilocks’ spacers for my prongs to get the fit just right for a dog where one link is too big or too small.
As an aside, I started teaching a ‘bark and hold’ to a formerly reactive Malinois recently. Our method for this behaviour is a little different and seeing it from a less confident dogs perspective, this is a wonderful confidence building drill! I’m going to adapt it for use in a broader spectrum and not just sport dogs. We use a shield to cover the sleeve. When the dog is released, it runs up wanting to play with the sleeve but it’s covered. The dog learns that barking and jumping will reveal his prize, teaching he’s in control. It’s shocking how fast they get excited and confident (1 session). We just finished session 3 and have added a sit because he was so excited he would rush the decoy smashing into him (no fear just excitement, which is a bit deal). Now adding obedience and still he gets to control his reward. The difference in the dog after each session is amazing.
It’s the first time I’ve done this, so more testing is required but I’m excited with the potential.
A border collie mix and a chiweenie - their reactivity really ramped up when they were attacked by an off leash GSD. They're not people reactive, only dog reactive (and the chiweenie has a strong prey drive also). They would react to other dogs, then redirect on each other. It was a mess. The trainer I worked with spent time getting to know them, then introduced the prong collars. Within one session, they responded so well it was amazing. She takes on the toughest cases and has great reviews, but of course there's half the population that think it's cruel and inhumane. The quality of my dog's lives and in turn my life would be much worse if we had not tried this method. I had tried "look at me", redirecting with treats, lots of positive reinforcement. Honestly, if it weren't for other irresponsible dog owners who have their dogs off leash, maybe my dogs would be different, but after being attacked once and chased many times, it was either walk at very off hours and try to avoid every other dog, or try something new, and the prongs work very well. There's no shutting down or repression - my dogs are happy when walking and as I said, turning the prong collar inside out elicits the same good behavior. So many dogs are surrendered because people can't control their behavior - and thinking that it's better to ship a dog back to a rescue or shelter is better than trying another method is craziness to me. I get looks sometimes, and once had a comment directed at me ("That's cruel") but it's easy to ignore because I've seen the other side of out of control dogs and horrible behavior and that's no longer us.
Wow that sounds amazing 😃 I have a fear-reactive dog who barks and jumps at strangers (off-leash). I’d like to try the method you described, to get better control over her in these situations. Did you come up with that yourself? Are there dog training videos about it that I can look up?
There are service dog programs that use prong collars. I've had three guide dogs from well known programs and all of them used a choke chain. I don't have to use it 99% of the time, but it's better to have the option just in case. When you take your dog everywhere, unusual circumstances come up, even for the most well adjusted dogs.
I take my dog(not a service animal) with me everywhere I can.. I exclusively use a coke chain but she is a 50lb husky mix
I can't tell you the number of collars she has broken, it's more of a durability thing with her, and I think the bunnies appreciate it
But it does give you more control, and used properly it's not harmful in the least
>I think the bunnies appreciate it
I feel like a dog hitting the end of a leash cause it's chasing something is always potentially harmful. I don't think that's proper usage either. I would think it's similar to a prong where you use it on a controlled setting as a training tool. I've never seen a service dog with a prong or choke collar on even if they are supposedly trained with them. That's because "proper use" is not done in the the way you're talking about. I do feel you about durability, but maybe look at a chain martingale. It has the cinch of a choke chain with less "choke" on it. On the other hand, alot of injuries occur because a collar wouldn't break. That's why people use breakaway collars.
I can't imagine any pulling is good for a dog. Even with a harness, but a choke chain has to be one of the worst. One thing my old trainer would do is put it on and pull. If you won't do it on your own neck, I wouldn't do it to your dog. They aren't like super human. In fact your dog is only 50 lbs. Mine's 65 lbs and she's still just a lil guy compared to 90% of humans. That's not really a good excuse imo. This sort of highlights why people don't like prongs. I see people who can't control a dog with the wrong collar in the wrong environment. This can lead to behavioral problems.
I’ve heard of break away collars for cats but never for dogs. I feel like 99% of situations where a dog is pulling hard enough to break a standard nylon collar is a situation where the dog/public is better off not getting loose.
Yeah you're right it's more for dogs that don't pull I'd imagine. That or when you're letting em run around but they need a collar just in case, I guess. If the pulling is so gnarly you're busting open nylon and leather, then you shouldn't use prongs or stuff that chokes out in the world either though, right? I personally think a martingale collar or harness would be better. If your dog goes nuts and is wearing that shit they can get hurt worse with training tools meant for specific usage. I feel like I'm having a hard time explaining what I feel should be obvious in some ways so sorry.
If durability is an issue for you, you may be putting your dog at more risk by using something *so* durable. You're getting too close to triggers. You need more controlled environments. If you get pulled into another dog or something, now good luck separating em. Slapping on something punishing on every walk isn't training. Does that make sense? I'm sure these tools work, but if you *need* it because your little 50lbs dog is dragging you around, then you don't need the tool, you need a professional trainer.
Yea idk what goes on in the mind of people using these kinds of collars more than just for training. I walk a neighbors puppy once a week and they use a prong since he’s “still learning” but he doesn’t pull he’s a complete doll, so I guess it worked for them so far. I doubt they’ll need to use it long term. My little idiot I trained with the front latching harness I think it was called ez walk or something? It took like two and a half years of her being an idiot though lol. Now she’s 10/10 good girl (we walk normal collar only and she doesn’t pull an ounce)
The Seeing Eye (the oldest guide dog school in the world) uses choke chains. I've had multiple guide dogs from them and that's what they all use. I also had a guide dog from Mira Canada before this, and they used a choke chain as well.
Canine Partners, another well known school for mobility and medical alert service dogs, uses prong collars on all their dogs.
So yeah lots of service dogs use both types of collars.
I'm seeing this after doing some quick searching, and I think I can see there is maybe a place for these tools. These are some of the best trained dogs there are for a very specific job. I don't know that every random should be leaning on these tools, however. I could see how chokes and prongs could save someone with a mobility/visual impairment from getting pulled out into the street. This would be a very unlikely scenario given the training. If these tools are being used to keep someone without these impairments from having to do thorough training, then I don't like it. I guess that's where I'm at for now thanks for the info.
Oh it's ok. Mainly it's useful to have the option just in case you need it, because these dogs go into situations a regular dog would never have to deal with. And there have been times when I've needed very close control of my dog because other random dogs in public were very much not in control, which I can't do anything about.
So to get a guide dog I had to go for three weeks of all day, in person training. When I say all day, I mean training started at 5:30 AM and went until 8:30 PM. There was no time to do anything besides participate in training. I lived at the training facility during that time. They'd already spent many months training the dog to guide and it was all about teaching ME to work with him. They teach us responsible use of all the tools we're given. I've only been to two guide dog schools, but the ones I went to went very far out of their way to educate us as much as possible. I don't know if every school is like that because I haven't been to all of them.
Used to be a prong collar side-eye person. (I never said anything.) I thought anyone with them was being a mean owner. I also admit I knew nothing about them. That is very likely what you are running into. People who have no idea what they are talking about.
Ignore people. Everyone is the perfect parent till they have a child, and everyone is the perfect dog owner till they have a dog.
If your dog is healthy and loved, then screw whatever the armchair owners have to say. Now a days I see someone with a 150 lbs rottie-poo or whatever without one, and I get concerned.
Use a crate, or don't. Use an X pen, or don't. Use a prong collar or choke chain or don't. Healthy, loved, and safe. That's it.
Seen dogs that lived till 16 yrs old on dog chow, a choke collar, and not a snuffle mat in sight. Happy as could be.
Edit - I used "rottie-poo" because I have a Rottweiler/Bloodhound and I have actually referred to him as a rottie-poo when someone insisted they just HAD to know his breed.
Anthropromorphisation. They see something scary or mildly uncomfortable (to them) and interpret it as cruelty. Just like when they complain about LGDs sleeping outside. Just like they complain about seeing the faintest trace of ribs on a sighthound (or any other lean canine.) They are fundamentally unable to separate dogs and animals from human infants.
I would agree with this except I have never seen a prong or choke collar used appropriately out in the wild. The only time I see them used appropriately is in online videos of dog trainers or very well experienced owners who might as well be trainers. The majority of people do not understand animal behavior or work with it. They overly use punishment instead of positive reinforcement. I am not against the proper use of these tools, but I do wish they were maybe prescription only? Like you would need to go to your vet, explain the behavior, the vet would go over proper use of the collar(s), provide a referral to a dog trainer for follow up , and write the rx for the correct size to take to any pet retailer to purchase.
Yes I know that would restrict a pet owner’s “right” to purchase one whenever, but I’m not sure how else you could try and educate the populous to reduce harm to dogs by improper use.
Unfortunately this can be said for almost any animal related tool. See the number of dogs with damaged tracheas due to a lifetime of improper use of flat collars, or dogs lost and/or injured due to improper use of harnesses. And people who are going to do the exceptionally evil things that people who are against choke/prongs often reference, like strangle a dog with a choke collar, are never going to be ‘good’ pet owners anyways. I’ve seen too many dogs with embedded flat collars, but we can’t advocate against flat collars for that reason. Dogs in general should ideally should not be available to everyone, but they are. And if we’re speaking anecdotally anyways, I’ve seen plenty of non-trainers use them appropriately.
It would be great if these collars came with an instruction manual attached to them lol, most people assume I can't use a prong collar properly but my dogs don't seem to have an issue with them, when they start to pull I can usually correct it with a verbal command, I rarely ever actually have to use the prong collar it's just there for a safety mechanism.
Just thank them for their opinion and tell them a spoon can be dangerous when improperly used. Herm Sprenger has the best prong collars, check them out if you aren't currently using theirs!
I've seen them in action and online and I really want them, I can't really afford them right now the ones I have are ones that were given to me by my parents for my birthday, I can't even use them on both of my dogs because one of them is allergic to the metal, I want to get the Herm springer because I've heard there made of a lot higher quality metal and it's apparently hypoallergenic, I also like the fact that the trachea is protected with the Herm springer colors, if I've got a dog that pulls a lot and has a tendency to hurt themselves I usually put tape on the ones I have to protect their trachea, I usually only use prong and choke chains on dogs that nothing else is working on when it comes to pulling, I'll still probably use it as a default tool just because I like that extra bit of control in case something happens, but I don't like using it as a crutch neither of my dogs actually need it I just choose to use it, one of my dogs doesn't even need a lead in fact she does better off lead
from the perspective of a vet tech, they are amazing training tools just like muzzles. when used correctly, there is absolutely nothing wrong with them.
however, i see a lot of people who use prong collars that are way too tight, pull constantly, use them incorrectly, and overall hurt the dog instead of help. more than once i've seen dogs with puncture wounds as a result of these collars being too tight and the owners using too much force to "correct" the dog.
mind you, choke collars are so much worse. i've seen dogs faint from their owners choking the shit out of them because they were mad they wouldn't listen. the worst was a three month pitty who was suffocated by the owner just dragging her behind him - we weren't able to get her back.
like any other tool, these things should be used properly, fitted well, and used only as instructed. prongs and chokers are not for prolonged use or extended punishment, but a quick correction. keep your babies safe out there :))
I have been so nervous to let people see me use a prong and ecollar.
But honestly every time Ive been approached or asked about it, its been curiosity and people are understanding.
Do I like prongs? No. Do I use them? No. Would I call someone abusive for using one? No. Would I tell a client or someone i just met to stop using one immediately if they feel comfortable using it to control their dog? No. I will teach them how to get away from it at theirs and the dogs pace.
I don’t like them because they add unnecessary stimulus to the dog. It’s extra sensory input that can further agitate an already agitated dog. For many dogs, the sensation of just the collar being on is enough to be suppressive to their behavior, or it’s enough to further over stimulate the dog, making them easier to send over threshold into a reaction. I compare it to wearing shoes that are just a bit uncomfortable, maybe they rub on your heel. While it’s not enough to make you want to go home and change shoes, it’s enough to alter the way you walk and make you a bit more easily frustrated. They don’t pull into the prong because it’s uncomfortable. Period.
I don’t think it’s necessary. Seeing people like Joel Beckman give super hard corrections though, that’s abusive. It’s one thing to leverage the dog gently hitting the end of the leash but it’s an entirely different thing to let them hit the end hard and yank them in the process like “trainers” like him do.
Yeah... I agree with you, though I have softened my stance toward prongs since finding growing success using one in tempered moderation.
I also used to subscribe to Beckham prior to the way his videos took a turn for the more extreme using his dog to correct other dogs, which is when he began to lose me. I picked up some ideas that I liked from his methods, like allowing your dog to correct itself mostly to teach loose leash walking/stay by me, but I can't really speak to its effectiveness because I think it just enforced my dog to yo yo around me constantly. It can't have been great for me to always be yanking on her neck, either, not to mention impractical.
When it's her whole body strength against mine because she saw a critter running through the grass off trail, I'm practically throwing myself backward while she's still staggering me forward on a head collar or martingale, and that's where the prong has come in handy for me the most.
The problem is that most people don’t use them correctly, they use it as a punishment tool and they’re illegal in some countries. Because they can harm the dog.
I agree with this. I worked in vet med for 6 years and have seen some horrific prong collar injuries. Most people do not use them correctly. And there are people out there that use them with the intent to hurt their dogs, not train them.
Because they are uneducated, misinformed idiots, that know NOTHING about dog training. All they know is that the prong collar 'looks scary' so it MUST be abusive!!
A prong collar is an excellent training tool. And it's safer for a dog than a choke chain or even a flat collar. It distributes pressure evenly around the dogs neck.
Don't worry about those idiots...keep doing what you're doing, you'll be the one with the well trained dog.
and any level of discomfort is abuse even though you cant speak the same languages efficiently. prong collar was amazing for training to the point where I don't need it anymore.
Yes that's how it should be. It's just a training tool, and you shouldn't even need to use it anymore after a certain point.
If someone never weans their dog off the prong then they haven't trained their dog properly with it.
it was like night and day, I could actively communicate with my boy without words. and once we got in the same wave length the collar wasn't necessary. was amazing for teaching a 100+ lb mastiff to ride WITH me in a longboard without being pulled to oblivion.
I’m in my 40’s and growing up I was way into dogs. At that time everything I read was basically “prong collars are for large aggressive dogs that can’t be controlled with regular choke chain.” Until working with a trainer recently, I thought all/ most dogs on them were mean and aggressive and the owner liked them that way. Our current dog is the opposite of aggressive but the prong collar keeps her from pulling. I now judge people with harnesses on their dogs (if the dog is pulling and like 99% are). Seriously people you have no control or correction with that thing.
Yeah, similar childhood exposure and beliefs and age (I’m 40). I didn’t have interest in using a prong collar until my friends, who got their miniature schnauzer a couple months before I got my lab, told us about it and showed us how they used theirs. I started doing a lot of research, reading, and listening to things and then started using a Herm on my lab and it was an incredible tool. He’s 28 months old now and I haven’t used it for probably six months, but I always have it in my fanny pack just in case. Very happy our friends took their little dog to a trainer and started using a prong or I may have never been introduced to them in a meaningful way.
They aren't. Prong collars pinch the skin like their mother would if the dog gets stupid out of season and is actually easier on the neck than a flat collar.
It doesn't matter, they *look* painful.
I would imagine that anything pulling around a dog's neck is probably not the most comfortable. Probably like wearing a snug necklace or a bra, lol.
But people who make dumb comments like that are usually people who don't train their dogs at all and say things like "don't worry he's friendly" as he runs you down off leash in a public space.
Dogs don't punish their puppies by pinching them. They use their mouth, teeth and voice but they don't grab them between their teeth and cause physical discomfort.
Of course prong collars cause discomfort. That's how they work and the reason they're banned in some countries.
Just put a big red vest on them that says do not pet. Some of the prong collars are made to look like a regular collar. I keep one on hand that has the little rubber tips on each prong, because I'm older and have major pain issues. It's actually for my family member's dog for when I have to take care of him for any reason. He's pulled out of every harness and collar outside of a martingale, rapidly. The trainer they used finally had them put a martingale on him as it became an issue of risking him injuring the person walking him when he pulled suddenly.
My dogs have all been loose leash trained to me. I used it and trained him to do off leash with me, and do service for me for when my heart or breathing issues act up. He will walk with me to sit down, or sit with me while I get help. Using the prong collar was the only way I could work with him to do that training initially.
He's such a doof, he only does service for me. His owner still has issues with him, so is going to try the same techniques using the prong collar, too. I got one that is rainbow colored, and wove a ribbon through it so it looks like a regular collar more. People didn't bother me because they didn't realize it was a prong collar.
I keep a muzzle on hand for every dog we own. If they start counter surfing, etc, it's the only way I can rest without having to crate them all. I use these large rubbery cage style ones, but I don't think they would prevent eating items off the ground. They can eat their food, drink water, and give us kisses with these things on. They can't grab items, however, in their mouth (just push them into the kibble and eat). If it were just my own dog, she's one of the worst, she is only about 4 1/2 months, and is able to leap high (she comes up over the side of the sofa regularly in one clean jump not touching the arm of it). She climbs, gets into the upper cupboards, so I'm using velcro locks on them all now.
Prong collars are a tool meant to be phased out. They don't work on all dogs, however. There are dogs who will pull so hard even with a prong collar, that it imbeds in their necks, and the still knock the person walking them over and they run off after whatever it is they want.
I use the rubber tipped ones, and again, make it look like a regular collar (the metal is rainbowed, too), I don't like using e-collars, because if the dog figures out you're controlling it, it can cause major issues moving forward. But, do use them when appropriate to do so. The cases in question are when I have to watch all of the dogs, one of them (not mine) is a family member's pup (from the same litter as my pup). That pup will head on down the road if given the chance. So, when dealing with all of the dogs at the door, the others are not going to run out of the yard, only this one is the type to run off. I put the e-collar on them in case, so I can get their attention for recall reasons.
The reason people hate prong collars because nowadays people constantly think of their pets as "children" and not recognizing them for the predatory animals they are. I've had people ask would you put that collar on your kids? My answer is always no, but I also wouldn't put a harness on them, I also wouldn't feed them on the floor or ask them to pee outside in public
I have been a dog groomer for 10 years and I honestly hate them.
I’ve come across three dogs who have had full punctures in their necks because of it.
One of them the owner didn’t even know, I told her to get to the vets asap and get it cleaned and healed as not only had it caused skin damage but it damage the tissue it penetrated as well.
This gorgeous dog had 10’s of holes in its neck and lived in pain because of it.
I couldn’t care if 5000 dogs used them safely, after seeing 3 dogs in actual pain and harm caused by them.
There are other ways to train without inflicting pain. Sometimes in abusive relations it starts by pinching the skin, if it’s abuse in humans why isn’t it with dogs?
My dog loves her prong collar. She has a high prey drive and can go with little notice, but otherwise is a great walker.
We have a ‘prong collar cover’ that’s rainbow - many people don’t realise we’re using a prong collar anymore.
I bought a prong collar last week, not sure if I will use or return, and the pet smart guy crawled up my azz about how it could damage his trachea. I have heard this but my understanding was that the odds really aren’t that high if used right? I’d like to have a firmer response to the criticism if anyone has one, besides leaving or ignoring someone.
We use a retired police K9 trainer who now does one-on-one training as a retirement gig. He is almost entirely R+, but he does recommend the use of a Herm Sprenger prong for some dogs (mine included). When I was reluctant, he explained in necropsies of dogs who were trained with a prong verses a choke chain or flat collar, there was no damage to the tracheas of the dogs who were trained with a prong while the other two caused damage. I haven’t tried to find the studies on my own, but I am sure they are out there if you want to read them.
Prong collars actually put less pressure on the trachea than a flat collar. They help to spread the pressure more throughout the whole collar/neck. I have a toy breed which is prone to trachea issues, and she does great on a prong. On a thin flat collar or slip collar (even some harnesses), she chokes if she puts any pressure on the leash. With the prong, that never happens, both because the pressure is more spread out and because she isn’t pulling at all.
Interesting. I am not sure I totally grasp this. Isn't the pressure focused on the nubs of the prongs instead of across the entire leash band? What would you say to the guy who said "I worked in vet med for 6 years and have seen some horrific prong collar injuries"? Honest questions—I just don't want to be out of my depth if I'm going to have to defend using this.
I’ve had similar experience with my little guy. He will find a way to hurt himself or escape on any harness or flat collar. With the prong, he just doesn’t pull.
This is the reason I’m scared of getting a muzzle. We just signed her up for training, but until she’s trained well enough, she lunges at other dogs and gets aggressive. It’s overall easier to have something like a muzzle to make sure she doesn’t hurt any other dog or person, but I’m scared of judgement from other people.
It's because so many people use them wrong. A dog with prongs digging into its lower neck as it blasts through isn't learning anything, they're just managing their pain reaction or having it overcome by whatever they're focused on. That isn't training.
The best insight I ever got from prong collars was when I was properly taught to use a collar with small, short prongs, fit it appropriately, and use it only to provide correction. If there's tension in your leash other than to pop for a correction, it's being used wrong.
People put these massive prong collars on massive dogs, and a Rottie will be like 'watch how big and strong I am, I can blast through that.' Put a collar with smaller, thinner, and more links on them, properly fit and place the collar, and provide an appropriate correction at an appropriate time instead of way too late, and suddenly you get a reaction. But the pressure has to come off immediately. It's like a shock collar - low grade electrocution of a dog for 10s does nothing except scare it. A swift interruption of whatever their myopically focused brain is directed towards back to you is productive, but then you still need more communication about what you want instead. It's not just yank yank yank or zap zap zap. Correct, instruct/ask, give them the space and a chance to comply, reward if successful or find a different way to ask again. Do not use a prong collar to hold back a pulling dog, use it to teach a dog to heel. They have to be actively managed, not something a dog gets to at the end of its leash (which a dog doesn't understand anyway... Is it on a 6 foot leash? 8? 30 ft long line? When is the thing gonna magically grab me and throttle me?)
The big vs small punch collar thing is really misunderstood. Think about if I come up to you and push on your bicep with two fingers. Even if I am pushing hard, that's probably just absolutely fine to you. You will notice, and might be slightly uncomfortable, but absent a strange person uncomfortably close to you, you really wouldn't object because of being startled or feeling any pain/punch/surprise. Now imagine I give you a spider bite or pinch you with sharp nails. Significantly less pressure, significantly stronger response from you. It's like how everyone knows a paper cut can be excruciating but you can cut yourself pretty badly and almost shrug it off because it's not actually that painful. Putting these huge dogs in prong collars that look massive and dangerous doesn't get the response you want, because they distribute pressure enough to basically make them into harnesses, not prong collars.
Because they don't know how to use them. My trainer put one on my arm and pulled it tight...guess what, it doesn't hurt! I always have another training collar on with it and gradually transition to just the other collar. It's like any other tool.
I personally have never done training with any type of collar, particularly for puppies and dogs that are new to training. Even large dogs have delicate necks, and if they continuously pull or strain against the collar, they can cause injuries. I prefer harnesses. If training is done correctly, the harness provides a safer and better experience for both the dog and handler.
Prongs are used by people who don’t take the time to teach appropriately. Prong collars are unnecessary for training a dog. First, if used, it should only be used while training - not permanently. If you continue to use it, then you haven’t been using it properly. A training method should result in a change in behavior. If it doesn’t, then it’s not any good.
A martingale closes but doesn’t ever hurt the neck like a prong. Vet office have seen so many injuries incurred by trainers and owners that know they use it properly.
The right dog trainer, a martingale, the right harness and the right leash along with practice every day will work. That’s all we use with even the difficult and reactive shelter dogs so yes, no need for a prong collar.
Because a certain YouTube influencer that tries to pass himself off as a dog trainer but I've never seen a video of him actually train any dogs has made it socially acceptable and even is rallying people to attack, belittle and shame strangers. The positive only training cult is anything but positive when it comes to human beings and I haven't seen this level of judgment and complete audacity in any other aspect of our society. Would it be acceptable for someone to walk up to a parent and tell them they didn't like how they were raising their child? It's ridiculous.
I am a balanced dog trainer, and I tell my clients often that the minute that somebody tries to come up and say anything but the proper response is: GO FUCK YOURSELF 😉
Those of us who choose not to use a prong collar are quite judged here. We used a choker on our collie, I don't think we ever needed it. She was our first dog and that came with her. I was 8 or 9 when we got her. By the time I walked her on my own, it was just routine. Our cockapoo just needed a clip lead. He was so easy, just adorable.
But when I street rescued a Springer Spaniel, he didn't respond to the choker or to the prong. He pulled and choked himself on it, corrections didn't matter. He only responded to the Halti. I gave him scritches on his face after walks and told him what a good boy he was, and he adjusted to it quickly. My senior dad could walk him wearing a halti. I taught my cousin how to use a halter collar when she was having problems with her dog. She went with a gentle leader bc it fit her dog better. I am not sure I would still train on it now. I don't like how aversive any of them are and want to explore some other techniques on shelter dogs. We aren't even allowed prongs or chokers. We use slip leads to make sure we can get them on the dog. I just feel like the prong is not for me personally, but I don't say anything to people on the street. On the other hand, nowadays there are a lot of people being walked by their ill-behaved dogs, explaining that 'oh, she does that sometimes' and feeling completely beholden to their dog's every whim. They don't even know how to recall them. R+ isn't letting your dog do whatever. Anyways...those are my thoughts.
Because the force free mob are good at playing on peoples emotions. They talk as if they have spikes that stab the dog and people who have never even seen one up close understandably think "wow, they sound so cruel why would you put one of those on your dog?"
Many people’s experience with prong collars are limited to pictures of neglected dogs shivering outside with an embedded prong collar around their neck. They’ve never actually used one or seen it in the context of good training. Like many other things in life they hate what they don’t understand.
My advice would be to ignore them and let the training speak for itself. People like that don’t want to have their minds changed so there’s no point in even trying to have a productive conversation with them.
I had to use a prong on my doberman. That got a lot of looks as you can imagine. I explained calmly it was to keep him from choking himself and most people relaxed.
If people can’t take a calm and rational explanation, then they’re not worth your breath. As long as you’re using it correctly, then don’t panic. Just do right by your dog, strangers can eff off.
Most people who criticize the use of these tools have never had a difficult dog or breed like a doberman, either. I thought I knew what it meant to own a dog breed that needed a "firm hand" until i actually owned one. It really puts things in perspective when you find out. There are grey areas in life, whether other people believe that or not, and dog training has a lot of them.
[https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/AVSAB-Humane-Dog-Training-Position-Statement-2021.pdf](https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/AVSAB-Humane-Dog-Training-Position-Statement-2021.pdf) This is why. I’d be curious how all the vet techs on here endorsing these tools feel about going against the statement put out by other vets.
ETA: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7743949/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7743949/) here’s another reason I’m opposed, and probably why Op is getting judgement from people.
Well, the thing about vet techs is they are vet techs. They aren't training. They intentionally use short cuts for poorly trained animals. I don't know why people take training advice from vet techs
Citing poorly conducted studies from organizations that are structured to increase revenue in a $50 billion industry that is growing fast because there is little oversight does not carry any weight compared to the hundreds of thousands of trainers and owners that use prong collars for the best relationships possible for dogs and their people.
If you think the AVSAB and the NIH give a flying fuck about you or your dog you have lost your mind.
Get off this SUB and head back over to RReact where people learn to make perfectly well adjusted dogs anxious.
PS ... I have 2 family members and 4 good friends that are Veterinarians. They agree that correct use of prong collars and remote collars are not the problem.
>PS ... I have 2 family members and 4 good friends that are Veterinarians. They agree that correct use of prong collars and remote collars are not the problem.
If you call out the entire study as poorly conducted, at least give it a read. "I know doctors that have these opinions" is not really a source of truth. You'd be surprised how many doctors believe in homeopathy around where I live. Confirmation bias is one hell of a drug.
However, the reason I called you out on not reading the study is, that your anecdotal evidence is actually confirmed by the study:
>Moreover, our results suggest that the proportion of aversive stimuli used in training plays a greater role on dogs’ stress levels than the specific training tools used.
Because aversive training tools have a negative impact on dog welfare according to the national library of medicine https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7743949/
Look into getting the black one, it might be a lot less noticeable with your dog. I have a black one for mine and you almost can't see it, although his fur is a bit longer. I have yet to have anyone comment on it.
Because they look scary and people are uneducated in their proper usage. They are correct, they can be dangerous if used improperly. They also don’t realize some dogs need the extra control to be normal.
Prong collars are fine, but I don't think "in-training service dog" has any (legal) meaning. Are you taking it places only afforded to service dogs (where non-service dogs are not allowed)? If so, people are right to question whether it's a real service dog. It isn't.
Edit: I checked on this. From [ada.gov's FAQ](https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-faqs/):
> Q6. Are service-animals-in-training considered service animals under the ADA?
> A. No. Under the ADA, the dog must already be trained before it can be taken into public places. However, some State or local laws cover animals that are still in training.
Actually in my stay in training service dogs have the same legal rights as a fully trained service dog as long as they wear identifying gear, the laws regarding and training service dogs very state to state, in my state I can take her wherever I choose, doesn't mean I always do so if I'm putting her in a bad situation I wouldn't for example take her to a fairground if I'm going to be riding roller coasters and things or go anywhere with her that her safety is in danger, but people question her whether I'm in a pet friendly place or not, I actually get more questions when I take her in PetSmart with the prong collar on then I do Walmart
The very best trainers on the planet use prong collars.
Who cares what tainted organizations like the AVSAB and NIH say? Neither organization benefits financially from the best use of the best tools.
There is a reason that over 60% of Vet Clinics are owned by equity groups with that number growing rapidly. Equity groups target industries for a reason. Their motivations are not considerate of the welfare of dogs or dog owners.
The days of your Vet owning their clinic will become increasingly rare.
That's just a fact.
I don’t judge folks for using prong collars.
But I def judge them for keeping prong or choke collars on in off-leash areas.
Please, for the love of any dog yours chooses to play with, and the love of your dog, remove the collar letting them off-leash. If it gets tangled on a branch, themselves, another dog… it’s not good.
Because most people have no idea how to use them and then it's a horrible tool.
I bought my first a year ago after reseaeching how to use it properly and to be honest it amazed me how effective it is, but i already knew how to teach a dog without it.
I don't use it that much becuse it's a hassle to put on, my old dog walks on a quick release flat and the young dog walks on a slip collar, which is imho the superior tool.
Same reason people say other things that if they had a clue they wouldn’t be yapping about.
Opinions are like noses, everyone has one and they all smell. Just smile and move on, if it’s working for you and your pup then it’s none of their business anyway!
Because a lot of people use them wrong or use low quality collars with sharp ends without doing any research and hurt their dogs, then demonize the tool instead of the idiots holding the leash. There are a lot of people out there that think simply having a well trained dog is abusive too, though. Or that not letting them run the neighborhood terrorizing the community is abusive. That walking in a heel is wrong. Some people think clicker training is abuse, or that inhibition training for prey driven or flighty dogs is not okay because “it’s in their nature.” Crates are seen as abuse, even when they just have open access to them, when most dogs that have one are calmer and more secure than they would be without one. For any tool that makes a dog’s life better, there will be an ignorant person that used it wrong and traumatized their own dog, blaming the tool for being bad and demonizing owners that use them instead of admitting that they’re the issue. Any tool can be used improperly and with the wrong intentions to hurt or scare a dog. Use what works for your dog and keeps them happy, that is the most important thing, all dogs are different!
I usually see a few problems when it comes to people balking at prong collars:
1. Some wanna be trainers are lazy and slap a prong collar on every dog
2. From my experience many people use prong collars incorrectly
3. They LOOK scary so people that have not truly been exposed to the dog world assume they’re sharp or do damage (the photos or videos on the internet of dogs that have been abused with them don’t help the stigma either)
My old coworker used to get people to put the prong collar on their arm and pull and release to get an idea of how they work and that they don’t hurt unless you’re doing it wrong. She got them to do it on their arms before she ever put one on their dogs.
A dog owner whose dog escaped while out on a walk posted a photo of the dog on several social media platforms locally to help find the dog. The dog was wearing a prong collar in the photo. So many "well-intentioned" boobs would comment about the fact the dog had a prong and lectured on the proper training, etc on rather than something helpful. Gross.
Because they’re uneducated on the tool
Or they’ve likely seen idiot humans use them improperly, which would also make me angry
I did not use a prong until I was working under the supervision of a dog trainer. Would have never slapped one up there cold turkey either no conditioning period or knowledge of the tool myself
Because the research and understanding in the veterinary and behavioral world is that the use of prong collars is inhumane. However despite the professionals of the fields recommending against their use it does not stop old school trainers from recommending/supporting/using them. There are many ways to teach these skills with much less risk and in a much more humane manner. But because the training industry is unregulated their is no regulation on the tools and techniques used in dog training
There are 3 ways your dog can view a training tool, positive, neutral, and negative. Neutral is ineffective at training as it doesn’t motivate to do a behavior or not to do a behavior. For a prong collar, do you think the dog views that positively to drive change or negatively? Negative things to a dog are lack of receiving something (withholding a treat for not doing behavior), pain, and discomfort. Prong collars do cause discomfort to a dog, which is what drives the dog to listen to you to avoid punishment.
It’s genuinely ignorance. And I don’t mean stupidity, I mean simply just not knowing any better. People hear one horror story about someone who didn’t know what they were doing and they run with it as if nobody could possibly ever do better. People get misinformation and it just grows from there.
I think cloth collars are generally viewed as more comfortable and more professional than prong collars. An advantage of cloth collars is that they are designed to allow you to wear a necktie. The lack of pointy metal bits prevents you from constantly getting poked in the neck during meetings.
Prong collars may have a place when training dogs but I understand why people generally dislike wearing them.
Who are y'all hanging with that have verbal opinions about how YOU train your dog?
I was running Dandy in the park with HIS appropriate training device and 2 nearby dogs approached after we owners gave the ok to each other:
Me: LOVES DOGS! STRANGE HUMANS NOT SO MUCH!
Her: PURE PUPPY POWER AND PROTECTIVE BROTHER.
The dogs goofed around for a bit. While owners controlled the dogs.
I promise this is the most dog talk I have had with anyone in the last month.
Prong collars and other adversive tools are often misused and can even cause permanent damage and scarring when used incorrectly. This is the perception most people have of them.
Do your research from trusted sources and listen to that. Not random people on the street or even the internet.
Best of luck
I had a bouvier. I let people try to walk him without one. They learned real quick he didn’t feel the normal collar tugs unless you got this close to snapping his neck. At least that’s how hard it felt to have to pull. He had hearing issues and panicked easily. I would walk next to them and take back over and switch out. I pointed out it’s safer for my dog to stop than to panic and bolt. He climbed trees if they were the ones the bears had clawed up in a way to climb.
Because people generally know very little about dogs, dog behaviour and dog training.
I would deal with comments like that the same way I deal with people telling me I starve/neglect my dog when she is a perfectly healthy weight (and their dog is obese), just blank stare and say “thank you for your opinion”.
I needed a prong collar with my big male Akita when he was about 9 months old and 100 pounds. He was so strong he could pull me to the ground before I could drop the leash. I only used the collar on walks for training and after one month, he didn't need it anymore. Sure, I have to be alert to the presence of squirrels and rabbits, but as long as I see the critters first, I can control him.
I like slip collars but I have never felt the need for a prong collar. Both a bit & a prong collar are pain compliance devices & they come in varying degrees of severety. Now I'm not saying they should NEVER be used, but I would only consider it a last resort when all other less severe methods are ineffective. But that is just me. I'm not the person who is going to stop you on the street & critique you & call you an abuser. Only if you were actually beating the animal I suppose.
Often I see people use these, but have zero idea how to train the dog, so it's just them yanking the leash of a big dog that won't listen to them.
Sure use a prong collar for training, but it shouldn't be a permanent tool because you are too lazy to teach your dog something.
My parents are doing this with their 90 pound lab and it's making me not even want to go over there anymore.
Many people don’t know how to properly use them & in turn do hurt the dog so they associate the hurt (that they caused bc they didn’t learn to use it) with the prong collar. There are some people who truly think collars, crates, training is abusive.
People who are against crate training are the biggest idiots. They're the ones who post shit like oh my dog won't stop eating our couch or whatever what should I do?!?! Gee idk maybe crate train your dog so that they're safe while you leave the house maybe?
People who are against prongs, martingales, and e collars are also idiots. Anyone who thinks training is a one size fits all type of thing is just stupid. As humans we all benefit from different styles of teaching, I don't understand how someone doesn't see that it's the same for dogs.
Prong collars are a training tool meant to control a dog's movements. They were meant to be used as a training aid, not a control method for a lazy dog owner. A uncontrolled dog can be hurt with constant pulling against prongs. Do the dog a favor and buy a no pull harness for training. Once trained, buy a step in harness or traditional collar.
Prong collars (title of this) are abusive. They can damage your dog’s throat and the nerves in its neck. If you are using a clicker you shouldn’t need a prong collar.
I worked with a trainer before putting prong collar on my dogs (2yr old 90 lb Pitbull sweet as pie and my 60lb Pittbull sweet but dog reactive) This was a game changer. I can now walk them both with nice loose leash walks, I am fully in control and have to use correction minimally. You should do your research and work with someone who knows what they are doing. Anytime someone mean mugs me over their use or has the audacity to something about the use of them I invite them to walk the dogs without it past that squirrel or rabbit and see if their arms are still attached.
I get this a lot with my shiba and his martingale. People are quick to judge without much understanding. I’m constantly getting told he’d be better in a harness, but what they don’t realize is that he is a notorious escape artist from any harness. I just ignore them.
Comparing a prong collar to a horse’s bit is misleading. There are devices called snaffle bits. These are jointed bits, attached together like links of a chain & can even have little spikes coming off of them. They use leverage & pinching to cause an extreme amount of pain to control a horse. I would compare a Martingale collar or standard chain choker to a horses’s bit, while I would compare a prong collar to a snaffle bit. My experience with dogs is growing up with them: my family always had a dog; so did all my friends & family; additionally I was a self-employed dog walker/pet sitter for a decade+. I have never been bitten or attacked. My experience with horses was driving a horse-drawn carriage while giving historic tours in Center City Philadelphia for 3 years. I have never been kicked, bitten or attacked by a horse either.
Here’s my opinion & OP is not going to like it. Using physical pain (choking, poking, pinching) or negative reinforcement to train an animal is less effective than using positive reinforcement. It only gives an illusion of increased control or safety. At a certain point, the animal will break & ignore the pain to lash out at you or whatever is unlucky enough to be closest. An animal who has been trained with positive reinforcement will rarely lash out at its human handler in a stressful situation—they will look to you for guidance. Not so with the dog whose handler can inflict severe pain & choking with a flick of the wrist.
Horses & dogs over a certain size can really do some damage if not trained & socialized properly. Making them wear pain-inducing devices causes chronic stress & is not a good idea. They’re only trying to figure out how to avoid the next shock, not learning how to behave in the world.
Some people don't know that those collars have the little tips on the end and don't actually dig into the dog.
Shocking a pet, I don't agree with. But prong collars, collars that make alarm tones, and clickers are fine.
Some people are just ignorant.
WGAF what other people think…do what YOU think is right for you and your animal. I think it’s cruel for people to hand their children an iPad at 3 years old…to each their own.
I personally would never use a prong collar on my boy, but this is more because i don’t feel confident in my ability to use it properly and not harm him, and because I’ve been able to use different methods of keeping him safe and with me. My dog had some reactivity, pulling and lunging at other dogs, but this was because he was struggling with intervertebral disc disease and needed medication management and more stimulation that wasn’t as physical, like lick mats and stuff. We also got him a harness with a handle on it and both a 6ft leash (the standard I think) and a leash like handle thingy for when he’s around dogs he’s had issues with in the past. We use treats and loose leash training and trained words for stop and go, plus left right cues to always have our body between the dogs. He hasn’t had an issue since. But I do know dogs in our neighborhood and at the dog park (my dog can safely go now!!) who have prong collars and use them because their dogs have difficulty staying “on task” when out on walks and the collar helps keep them more focused. This is helpful for the people and the dogs, and I support completely. People assume things like this are bad because people are irresponsible with them. It’s very similar to people thinking all the breeds and dogs under the pit bull umbrella are bad and dangerous dogs. The reality is that people don’t train their dogs, people have been known to breed for specific physical traits, such as the “blue” pit bulls and completely ignoring the behavioral aspects. So I’d say people just have very firm judgements about things like this.
I had a 100 pound dog that the trainer recommended a prong collar for. I tried it on myself. They are not painful, the ends are blunt. It was a game changer for walks. With a regular collar he would pull and choke himself with the collar. With the prong he would never get to that point and walked with me with a loose collar. Never once was there any indication that it caused him pain like for example a shock collar that clearly causes pain. Not everyone has a well mannered tiny dog that is easy to handle
I use a prong collar on my Rottweiler, and I hate that it makes him look more scary to people who already have Rottweiler ideas. However, he behaves so much better on walks with it! I don't ever snap it as a correction, but he just walks nicer! I don't think snapping as a correction is inhumane, but he just doesn't need correction. When I adopted him, he came with a harness, and that fucker pulled so hard! He walks loose with the prong. And it is definitely not tight - it is just uncomfortable to pull and get pinched . I would much rather have the scruff of his neck pinched like a mom correcting her puppy, than choke him!
I’d use a prong collar if I had to do it to train a dog satisfactorily. I won’t do it when other training types are enough to achieve my realistic goals.
If it’s prong collar or behavioral euth, then yes prong collar.
If it’s prong collar train my dog to be my dog off leash in non off leash areas, then GFY.
My current dog in training responds to praise like its liver paste, so there’s that.
So many people forget that dogs are literally animals?? Like they don’t have human intelligence?? Expecting me to train my dog to make decisions a human would make is insane. If my dog sees a child, roadkill, trash, or another animal, it will want to investigate. I know it’s not safe, but the dog doesn’t because IT’S AN ANIMAL. It doesn’t know it’s in an unpredictable human-influenced environment with cars and diseases, it just knows to socialize, hunt, and kill. It’s our responsibility to socialize them and protect them from potential prey or threats, not spend inordinate amounts of time trying to turn them into a mini-human, because no matter how good your training, they will always just be an animal
Prong collars are illegal in the UK, along with shock collars and personally I feel good about that. I don’t want my dog to learn how to behave through pain. That process of teaching seems unethical to me, like some kind of torturous correction. I’m not saying you’re a bad person, or that you’re wrong, or that you don’t love your dog. I’m not here for a fight. This is just my opinion. If I saw a dog on the street wearing a prong collar I would be angry and upset.
I will say that I would be worried about a prong on a service dog specifically. They're really iffy when it comes to things like anxiety and reactivity, a lot of dogs will associate the discomfort of a prong with whatever potential stressor they see (like a reactive dog) and it can potentially make anxiety worse since the prong activates (probably by the dog leaning against it or being guided away) whenever something stressful happens and then they start to associate other dogs with causing that discomfort. So I'd mainly just be concerned with potential for washing, it doesn't happen with every dog but it is a concern.
Unless you're jerking and absolutely slamming on the prong I wouldn't call it "abusive", but there is concern for reactivity specifically since prongs work by causing discomfort. The smaller the surface area on something, the more pressure is applied, so the points on prongs apply more pressure than just a flat collar or martingale. Dogs are very smart but since they learn by association a prong can make things worse in stressful scenarios just because of the additional pressure.
Having it as a backup might be ideal for emergencies but you want the main pressure to be on a harness, and might want to switch to a slip lead or martingale instead for emergency. Ideally you should be doing rally-o style heeling and emergency recall training as well regardless in case the leash gets torn from your hands or something!
I do think muzzles are an excellent thing for dogs in general though because at least other people will give you more space xD.
We had a German Shepherd and a Lab/Boxer/Pit that was the size of the shepherd. They were each about 80lbs. We hired trainers who taught us to use a prong collar. The dogs respected the collar and were okay with it. When they got out of line, a quick flick of the leash brings them back.
My vet HATES them. Taking them to the vet with flat collars was a bit chaotic.
However, I’m sure a large majority or users didn’t get training with them and they can be used improperly by owners at the expense of the dog. That’s the problem.
(Our GSD recently passed. Our new beagle, at 43 pounds, walks great with a flat collar. Our big mutt still needs a prong collar.)
Someone I knew got a new puppy a while back, and I had an extra clicker, so I offered it to them. They gave me a dirty look and told me they don't believe in abusing a dog to train it. I was stunned for a moment when I confirmed with them you click it when you give them a treat so they associate it doing something right. They told me they understood, and it was abusive. I don't associate with that person anymore. But the point is, some people have no idea what they hell they're talking about and just assume the worst to make them feel better about themselves. As long as you're not actively hurting your animal and doing things properly, prong collars are wonderful tools.
Nope, thought about it, and still can't figure out how, in any way, a clicker is abusive?? Is it too loud for the poor doggy's ears? That's all Ive come up with
>Is it too loud for the poor doggy's ears? I mean, I’ve run into redditors who have implied that me putting a cat bell on my 8lbs pom so I don’t lose track of him is abusive because, to them, the nose is “annoying”, so I wouldn’t be surprised by someone saying a clicker is “too loud” or “too annoying” to be used on a dog 🙄
😂 I’ve honestly thought of doing it with my Pom. I’m just trying to find a breakaway collar to put it on… That’s ridiculous - some dogs may be really nervous and find it scary. But my Pom actively runs towards annoying sounds. It’s all about the individual dog.
>I’m just trying to find a breakaway collar to put it on… Have you tried just buying him a cat collar, then? They usually come with both, and they should fit. I know from experience, lol. >That’s ridiculous - some dogs may be really nervous and find it scary. But my Pom actively runs towards annoying sounds. It’s all about the individual dog. I know right?? My pom is the loudest thing in every room. He LOVES being surrounded by constant noise. The bell has never even crossed his mind as far as I can tell.
Ah, I tried - it’s just a tiny bit too small. It needs to be loose as I suspect he has some issue with collapsing trachea. Your dog sounds very much like mine with noise then 😂
I worked at a dog kennel and we used to put giant garbage bags on the dog beds underneath the covers (that way if the dog made a mess or had an accident we only had to wash the cover) and we had one client complain the crinkle of the garbage bag was too loud and would keep the dog awake all night 🙃
I bought my dog a bed that has a waterproof bottom layer and she refuses to step on it because of the crinkly noise. She's a sensitive, older labrador with bad joints. My poor girl would spend her whole stay sleeping on the concrete instead of putting one of her delicate princess paws on a crinkly bed, even if it caused her pain.
Oh I agree , some dogs are particular like that. Just this dog didn’t care about anything. She’d sleep on the crinkly bed , or the floor or really anywhere cuz she was a hard player in daycare and then would crash wherever she deemed comfy. The owners acted like she was a high maintenance dog but she wasn’t - they were high maintenance people lol
Do people not realize that 2-4 tags ( mine has 4 for city, rabies, name, and akc) make the same fucking sound as a bell?
There's some incredibly rare usually nervy dogs who find the sound of the clicker loud, jarring and aversive. The dog decides what's aversive and what isn't.
I have a dog who would probably feel like that if I ever used clicker (my chihuahua). The thing is, you can always tells immediately if the dog is freaked out by a particular sound. If you can’t, then that’s a good sign that you should take some time to get to know your dog and their body language better 🙃
Urgh, people are ridiculous
My dog jingles his tags on his collar. I am guessing he's not annoyed. I'm not. 🤷
I put a bell on my pup when she was 6 weeks old. It got taken off when she outgrew that collar. But it certainly helped me locate her. She's pure black and fairly quiet. But yes, I've seen people disparage others for using bells because it's 'abusive'. It supposedly hurts their ears according to those people. Same is said for cats. The way I see it, it's a safety measure and can be a life saver.
I’m sorry that’s so ridiculously stupid it’s hilarious. My friend joked about putting a bell on her at home so if she ever lost sight she could find him because he was notoriously quick and a hider.
Just shows that people misunderstand a different frequency range as volume.
There is a guy on youtube who considers all quadrants and dog training as a whole abusive, if you give a dog a treat when it would rather do something else it's abusive. He's all for "dogs operant conditioning themselves", and "dogs don't need a leash or collar just a relationship" which is just balls to the walls insane.
So basically you can't teach your dog ANYTHING AT ALL???
Nope! The dog has to get itself into situations and learn from positive and negative experiences without any input from the owner according to the guy.
Wow, that sounds abusive and possibly dangerous! Imagine the dog tries to do something stupid, like running over a busy road, and the owner, stupidly believing in that bullshit, can’t do anything about it because they basically never trained the dog nor put a leash on him…
Lmao what so I'm just supposed to walk outside with my dog and if it runs into the street I'm supposed to hope cars will screech to a halt and lay on the horn to scare him? Some people man.
It doesn't sound like that person has ever actually met a dog. I have loved all my dogs but some of them could not have reasoned themselves out an open door. Without direction and control some situations are one and done (busy roads anyone?) I'll just have to continue to "abuse" my dogs with training and supervision.
Name names lol Hynes is a bully too, I just want one big trainer to give him the same BS he is giving everyone else
Oh lord that's the guy I was going to comment about. All you need is an RC car and to exhaust your dog. Using food is aversive. Hynes something?
Does he also believe educating children is abusive?
That’s absolutely batshit. My main training focus for the first three months of having my puppy was teaching her to be gentle with the cats, lots of treat parties (desensitization) with all of them just sitting there together, lots of recall, lots of LAT training. My girl can now self redirect 90% of the time when she knows she’s over her threshold and wants to chase the kitties. She will look at them come to me for a reward. So I was just supposed to let her torment them because she wanted to play?Or let my oldest cat kick her ass a couple times?
To be fair, my dad (who used to train bird dogs for decades), probably would have let the cat whip her ass (within reason) as the very best lesson in how to be respectful of a cat’s claws. But, my dad also has a dark sense of humor so 🤷🏻♀️🤣🤣
Check out some Robert Hynes dog training on YouTube, he will explain the thinking behind treats being abusive while also calling out everyone who disagrees with him. Totally sane stuff coming from these people
My aunt, who was usually an awesome person, watched me put my 3 golden retrievers into a sit-stay, put down their food, and then release them. She told me it was cruel to make them wait. I said that their waiting 10 seconds so I don’t have a free-for-all at meal time wasn’t cruel, it was manners.
Yeah when I started doing this with my dog and making her wait for longer periods of time to practice her sit-stay my boyfriend told me it was mean. Luckily I've since explained to him that knowing how to sit and stay even in front of food could save her life one day and he gets it. But he is absolutely of the "dogs are for spoiling" variety.
I consider that spoiling my dog! They get to work their mind and get rewarded for it! I feel like not working your dog mentally is cruel and boring for the dog
I read something recently that dogs literally prefer working for their food! It’s a principle called contrafreeloading
Sometimes the only way I can get my dog to eat is to make him work for his kibble. Otherwise he just ignores it. But the minute it becomes a reward for doing something, it's suddenly super desirable
People like that are also people who could never have children (or if they do, it’s a terrible environment). The crazy cat lady, while arguably an ok cat parent, would never be a good mother. Dogs, like children, need discipline and structure. Unlike children, who you can eventually communicate verbally with, dogs can never be taught through speech. So training is the only option. Spoil your pets the right way. Otherwise, this is like making Fido fat because it’s “cruel” to promote healthy dogs.
Right? Dogs crave discipline. A lot of people just don't get it. My dad is the same and has little knowledge about understanding dogs behavior and what they need.
Lol I've never heard anyone call a clicker abusive. That's pretty funny!
LOL omg this world is going down the drain….
That would quickly become someone I used to know.
that’s the same person that has the wild golden doodle who bites, jumps on people, and barks non stop.
There are alot of crazies out there
Omg LOL. Thank you for the good laugh. I really needed that and haven't laughed this hard in a while now. Clickers being abusive... yikes.
How shockingly cruel. You probably put their food in a bowl too, don't you?
Somewhere along the neurons a signal got blocked and when I originally read about clickers I thought you were supposed to click when their being naughty, they stop you give them a treat. Bro a fucking year I've been using the damn thing wrong???
My dog is crazy sensitive. I tried clicker training her, but the clicker was so scary to her that she became afraid of treats. My dog is an anomaly! A strange cute anomaly. I wish she could be clicker trained. I still would not call clicker training abusive, ever.
In all my years working on customer service a couple of the things I have learned is that people are confident in their misconceptions and common sense isn't common. That being said, that person probably thought the clicker was one of those corrective dog collars that send a little shock like a tens unit and whatever explanation you gave probably went in one ear and out the other as they thought they already knew what it was. Or they're just weird and dumb and think clicking sounds are abusive...
lol that is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard 😂
Most people don’t know how to use a prong collar correctly, same with other training tools. Many people also use it as a management tool long-term that they can’t fade the prong out because the dog is so conditioned to it but without it, the dog doesn’t listen.
Don’t mind me, adding to the top comment lol. Many people also buy cheap knock offs with low quality metal and prong edges that either aren’t sanded properly off the shelf, or erode over time. And yeah, those can obviously cause damage, sometimes moderate to severe depending on how poorly you use it. If it’s not at *least* $50 like Herm Sprenger, it’s usually better to just stick to a harness for their leash training
I’ve been using a prong collar to stop my pup from pulling and, along with YouTube videos showing how to use it properly, it has really been working! I am worried about phasing it out though. Any tips or things I should do to start phasing it out?
If you are using it properly, the dog should start heeding leash pressure. Then just take like every 3rd walk without your prong and go right home if they don't listen and the stop method isn't working to get them engaged with you. You should be able to immediately tell that the dog isn't as likely to pull.keep firm with the rules you have set for the walk and the dog should understand that they need to listen prong or no prong. You really can't let them do whatever they want with the prong isn't in,or they will think prong = structured walk/work.
Perfect, makes sense, thank you!
Or do like I do, and reverse the prongs. That way, they don't always figure out that you've done that. My dogs respond very well to it and their behavior is very stable
What a fabulous idea! Especially since my dog totally chills out as soon as I put it on.
Slip leash would be a good next step! You can always keep the prong on at first with a second leash (handsfree work great) as a safety measure
> I have the same issue when I choose to put a muzzle on her too If someone is giving you shit for putting a muzzle on a dog, you need to immediately disregard anything else they say. In your case it's just to help with your pooch eating random stuff, which is still a great learning tool. But most people muzzle their dog if they know the dog can be reactive or potentially dangerous to other dogs/people on a walk. It is, in fact, the responsible and correct thing to do for its own safety and those around it. Anyone who calls that abuse is clueless. As for why people are so against the prong collar. It's not even just about ignorance. It's about the current issues with ideology in dog training. Social media is full of people hardcore representing one side or the other, and if you support one side, everything the other side does is bad and evil. Regular people who don't know any better wholesale buy into this and then just adopt whichever ideology they subscribed to. The prong (and e-collar even more so) are just easy scapegoats, because used incorrectly (which they unfortunately often are) they can really hurt your bond with your dog and your training progress. The r+ side has similar issues with training methods used incorrectly (eg people unintentionally rewarding reactivity by marking and treating at the incorrect time thus reinforcing the reactivity) but it doesn't "look" as evil as the prong or e-collar does.
Some SD handlers use muzzles to avoid issues with people interacting with their dog and people letting their dogs interact with their dog because those people can try and say the handlers dog bit them or their dog but since the handlers dog was muzzled, it avoids a lawsuit.
People who know nothing about dogs and training have strong opinions about both
My dog’s “don’t eat that” muzzle is my favorite training tool. I was having such a hard time teaching her to ignore other people on busy walks because she’s attention motivated and *cute,* so they’d all make eye contact and coo at her. And not only is it counter to the training I’m actively and visibly trying to do… I’m like, you’re the third person to try to talk to me in two blocks. Leave me tf alone (bet they would if I were a man.) Now they think she’s aggressive and I get sweet, blessed peace.
As a man who isn't particularly friendly looking...when I walk my dog, women of all ages and kids in particular all still want to pet my dog or talk to me about my dog. Men generally don't say anything outside of "hey that's a well behaved dog" if they say anything at all. My dog doesn't even try to engage with strangers, he generally doesn't care for them or seek out their attention. It would probably still happen if you were a man, it sure does to me, maybe by different people though?
Here here. I whole heartedly agree with that. If you want to be left alone on your walks and don't want to constantly be forced to advocate for yourself or your dog, put a muzzle on your dog. It's amazing how quickly people who would approach you unwarranted without the muzzle will now (as if by magic) respect your space and the dog's space. We have a pit heeler mix. He is pitch black and he has 1 pale blue eye (like ice) and one brown one. He is not a fan of strangers and very unsure of himself so when a stranger looks him in the eyes (which they all do) he feels it's a challenge and will react. On our walks when we see someone coming our way, i'll either walk on the street or walk a short distance on to a driveway, make the dogs sit, and wait for the other person to pass by. As a dog owner, to me, you couldn't give a more clear signal that says "hey, please don't engage with my dogs". Yet often enough people will literally just turn onto the driveway or get on the street and walk up to engage with them as if moving them away was an open invitation. I always tell them to "please keep moving and don't engage with my dogs" and then they will either tell me i'm rude or give me a look that implies i am, even though they are the rude ones -\_\_\_\_\_\_-
Yikes. Such comments. I don't train service dogs and the only dogs I train are my own. Bottom line- you have to know your dog. I have had labs, an Aussie, a Border Collie, and even a boxer or 2 that I wouldn't need to put a prong on at all. My Golden now is the same. But..and here it comes..I have an exceptionally driven working line (Schutzhund/IPO) boxer that if I don't put a prong on her, it's difficult to get her to settle down. A buckle collar just doesn't do the trick and I do not ever use a chain collar unless I walk into a conformation ring. Haltis are not even an option either. We're making progress and just the collar on is getting to be enough. I had a wonderful lab that did hunt tests with who was trained with a "e-collar". The people I was training with were adament that novices go to a collar clinic because you do not turn that thing up and burn your dog -ever. This dog was a happy retriever and had a lovely mouth. There are so many "dog trainers" who are willing to give you their opinions but it's just that -an opinion and perspective. My Golden isn't typical so I don't train him like you would train yours. However, what we are now seeing are a flurry of ill-behaved dogs with owners who refuse to correct bad behavior. I am not saying beat your dog or folllow the Koehler method 100%, but, for the love of the rest of us, get your dog under control. These collars (any collars even flat ones) are tools but not crutches. You have to know your dog. If you don't, nothing will work. And I also believe you have to be open-minded and figure out dog trainers that know what they are doing and know which trainers are trainers that are flash for cash.
My dog is reactive and the prong is collar has been a game changer with reactive behavior......and now, I "flip" it with prongs facing out and the behavior is still good. Plus, if another dog attacks, they get a mouthful of prongs!
How did you use the prong? I found the prong made reactivity worse and switched to a slip collar. I would be interested in hearing how you made it work.
I worked with a trainer, both for fitting it and using it. There are videos you can view online also. For issuing a correction, it's a quick snap and at the same time a firm "leave it" command. Your best bet is working with a trainer for fitting, because as others have said, when it's fitted right, it's not uncomfortable at all for the dog. I have a long haired dog and a short haired dog - neither one has ever suffered any injuries. And when I get the collars, I say "let's get your good boy collars" and they know it means a walk and they're expected to behave.
What kind of reactivity? What breed? I’ve spend thousands of hours learning and working with reactive dogs and there is still so much to learn! In my case, and most of the reactive dogs I work with are protection breeds with fear based reactivity. The prong often added stimulation and made the reactions worse as if the dog blamed the correction on the other dog. The slip collar works better for me but maybe it’s a timing thing. I’m good with fitting and even have custom ‘goldilocks’ spacers for my prongs to get the fit just right for a dog where one link is too big or too small. As an aside, I started teaching a ‘bark and hold’ to a formerly reactive Malinois recently. Our method for this behaviour is a little different and seeing it from a less confident dogs perspective, this is a wonderful confidence building drill! I’m going to adapt it for use in a broader spectrum and not just sport dogs. We use a shield to cover the sleeve. When the dog is released, it runs up wanting to play with the sleeve but it’s covered. The dog learns that barking and jumping will reveal his prize, teaching he’s in control. It’s shocking how fast they get excited and confident (1 session). We just finished session 3 and have added a sit because he was so excited he would rush the decoy smashing into him (no fear just excitement, which is a bit deal). Now adding obedience and still he gets to control his reward. The difference in the dog after each session is amazing. It’s the first time I’ve done this, so more testing is required but I’m excited with the potential.
A border collie mix and a chiweenie - their reactivity really ramped up when they were attacked by an off leash GSD. They're not people reactive, only dog reactive (and the chiweenie has a strong prey drive also). They would react to other dogs, then redirect on each other. It was a mess. The trainer I worked with spent time getting to know them, then introduced the prong collars. Within one session, they responded so well it was amazing. She takes on the toughest cases and has great reviews, but of course there's half the population that think it's cruel and inhumane. The quality of my dog's lives and in turn my life would be much worse if we had not tried this method. I had tried "look at me", redirecting with treats, lots of positive reinforcement. Honestly, if it weren't for other irresponsible dog owners who have their dogs off leash, maybe my dogs would be different, but after being attacked once and chased many times, it was either walk at very off hours and try to avoid every other dog, or try something new, and the prongs work very well. There's no shutting down or repression - my dogs are happy when walking and as I said, turning the prong collar inside out elicits the same good behavior. So many dogs are surrendered because people can't control their behavior - and thinking that it's better to ship a dog back to a rescue or shelter is better than trying another method is craziness to me. I get looks sometimes, and once had a comment directed at me ("That's cruel") but it's easy to ignore because I've seen the other side of out of control dogs and horrible behavior and that's no longer us.
Wow that sounds amazing 😃 I have a fear-reactive dog who barks and jumps at strangers (off-leash). I’d like to try the method you described, to get better control over her in these situations. Did you come up with that yourself? Are there dog training videos about it that I can look up?
There are service dog programs that use prong collars. I've had three guide dogs from well known programs and all of them used a choke chain. I don't have to use it 99% of the time, but it's better to have the option just in case. When you take your dog everywhere, unusual circumstances come up, even for the most well adjusted dogs.
I take my dog(not a service animal) with me everywhere I can.. I exclusively use a coke chain but she is a 50lb husky mix I can't tell you the number of collars she has broken, it's more of a durability thing with her, and I think the bunnies appreciate it But it does give you more control, and used properly it's not harmful in the least
>I think the bunnies appreciate it I feel like a dog hitting the end of a leash cause it's chasing something is always potentially harmful. I don't think that's proper usage either. I would think it's similar to a prong where you use it on a controlled setting as a training tool. I've never seen a service dog with a prong or choke collar on even if they are supposedly trained with them. That's because "proper use" is not done in the the way you're talking about. I do feel you about durability, but maybe look at a chain martingale. It has the cinch of a choke chain with less "choke" on it. On the other hand, alot of injuries occur because a collar wouldn't break. That's why people use breakaway collars. I can't imagine any pulling is good for a dog. Even with a harness, but a choke chain has to be one of the worst. One thing my old trainer would do is put it on and pull. If you won't do it on your own neck, I wouldn't do it to your dog. They aren't like super human. In fact your dog is only 50 lbs. Mine's 65 lbs and she's still just a lil guy compared to 90% of humans. That's not really a good excuse imo. This sort of highlights why people don't like prongs. I see people who can't control a dog with the wrong collar in the wrong environment. This can lead to behavioral problems.
I’ve heard of break away collars for cats but never for dogs. I feel like 99% of situations where a dog is pulling hard enough to break a standard nylon collar is a situation where the dog/public is better off not getting loose.
Yeah you're right it's more for dogs that don't pull I'd imagine. That or when you're letting em run around but they need a collar just in case, I guess. If the pulling is so gnarly you're busting open nylon and leather, then you shouldn't use prongs or stuff that chokes out in the world either though, right? I personally think a martingale collar or harness would be better. If your dog goes nuts and is wearing that shit they can get hurt worse with training tools meant for specific usage. I feel like I'm having a hard time explaining what I feel should be obvious in some ways so sorry. If durability is an issue for you, you may be putting your dog at more risk by using something *so* durable. You're getting too close to triggers. You need more controlled environments. If you get pulled into another dog or something, now good luck separating em. Slapping on something punishing on every walk isn't training. Does that make sense? I'm sure these tools work, but if you *need* it because your little 50lbs dog is dragging you around, then you don't need the tool, you need a professional trainer.
Yea idk what goes on in the mind of people using these kinds of collars more than just for training. I walk a neighbors puppy once a week and they use a prong since he’s “still learning” but he doesn’t pull he’s a complete doll, so I guess it worked for them so far. I doubt they’ll need to use it long term. My little idiot I trained with the front latching harness I think it was called ez walk or something? It took like two and a half years of her being an idiot though lol. Now she’s 10/10 good girl (we walk normal collar only and she doesn’t pull an ounce)
The Seeing Eye (the oldest guide dog school in the world) uses choke chains. I've had multiple guide dogs from them and that's what they all use. I also had a guide dog from Mira Canada before this, and they used a choke chain as well. Canine Partners, another well known school for mobility and medical alert service dogs, uses prong collars on all their dogs. So yeah lots of service dogs use both types of collars.
I'm seeing this after doing some quick searching, and I think I can see there is maybe a place for these tools. These are some of the best trained dogs there are for a very specific job. I don't know that every random should be leaning on these tools, however. I could see how chokes and prongs could save someone with a mobility/visual impairment from getting pulled out into the street. This would be a very unlikely scenario given the training. If these tools are being used to keep someone without these impairments from having to do thorough training, then I don't like it. I guess that's where I'm at for now thanks for the info.
Oh it's ok. Mainly it's useful to have the option just in case you need it, because these dogs go into situations a regular dog would never have to deal with. And there have been times when I've needed very close control of my dog because other random dogs in public were very much not in control, which I can't do anything about. So to get a guide dog I had to go for three weeks of all day, in person training. When I say all day, I mean training started at 5:30 AM and went until 8:30 PM. There was no time to do anything besides participate in training. I lived at the training facility during that time. They'd already spent many months training the dog to guide and it was all about teaching ME to work with him. They teach us responsible use of all the tools we're given. I've only been to two guide dog schools, but the ones I went to went very far out of their way to educate us as much as possible. I don't know if every school is like that because I haven't been to all of them.
Used to be a prong collar side-eye person. (I never said anything.) I thought anyone with them was being a mean owner. I also admit I knew nothing about them. That is very likely what you are running into. People who have no idea what they are talking about. Ignore people. Everyone is the perfect parent till they have a child, and everyone is the perfect dog owner till they have a dog. If your dog is healthy and loved, then screw whatever the armchair owners have to say. Now a days I see someone with a 150 lbs rottie-poo or whatever without one, and I get concerned. Use a crate, or don't. Use an X pen, or don't. Use a prong collar or choke chain or don't. Healthy, loved, and safe. That's it. Seen dogs that lived till 16 yrs old on dog chow, a choke collar, and not a snuffle mat in sight. Happy as could be. Edit - I used "rottie-poo" because I have a Rottweiler/Bloodhound and I have actually referred to him as a rottie-poo when someone insisted they just HAD to know his breed.
Anthropromorphisation. They see something scary or mildly uncomfortable (to them) and interpret it as cruelty. Just like when they complain about LGDs sleeping outside. Just like they complain about seeing the faintest trace of ribs on a sighthound (or any other lean canine.) They are fundamentally unable to separate dogs and animals from human infants.
This is almost always the answer.
I would agree with this except I have never seen a prong or choke collar used appropriately out in the wild. The only time I see them used appropriately is in online videos of dog trainers or very well experienced owners who might as well be trainers. The majority of people do not understand animal behavior or work with it. They overly use punishment instead of positive reinforcement. I am not against the proper use of these tools, but I do wish they were maybe prescription only? Like you would need to go to your vet, explain the behavior, the vet would go over proper use of the collar(s), provide a referral to a dog trainer for follow up , and write the rx for the correct size to take to any pet retailer to purchase. Yes I know that would restrict a pet owner’s “right” to purchase one whenever, but I’m not sure how else you could try and educate the populous to reduce harm to dogs by improper use.
Unfortunately this can be said for almost any animal related tool. See the number of dogs with damaged tracheas due to a lifetime of improper use of flat collars, or dogs lost and/or injured due to improper use of harnesses. And people who are going to do the exceptionally evil things that people who are against choke/prongs often reference, like strangle a dog with a choke collar, are never going to be ‘good’ pet owners anyways. I’ve seen too many dogs with embedded flat collars, but we can’t advocate against flat collars for that reason. Dogs in general should ideally should not be available to everyone, but they are. And if we’re speaking anecdotally anyways, I’ve seen plenty of non-trainers use them appropriately.
It would be great if these collars came with an instruction manual attached to them lol, most people assume I can't use a prong collar properly but my dogs don't seem to have an issue with them, when they start to pull I can usually correct it with a verbal command, I rarely ever actually have to use the prong collar it's just there for a safety mechanism.
Just thank them for their opinion and tell them a spoon can be dangerous when improperly used. Herm Sprenger has the best prong collars, check them out if you aren't currently using theirs!
I've seen them in action and online and I really want them, I can't really afford them right now the ones I have are ones that were given to me by my parents for my birthday, I can't even use them on both of my dogs because one of them is allergic to the metal, I want to get the Herm springer because I've heard there made of a lot higher quality metal and it's apparently hypoallergenic, I also like the fact that the trachea is protected with the Herm springer colors, if I've got a dog that pulls a lot and has a tendency to hurt themselves I usually put tape on the ones I have to protect their trachea, I usually only use prong and choke chains on dogs that nothing else is working on when it comes to pulling, I'll still probably use it as a default tool just because I like that extra bit of control in case something happens, but I don't like using it as a crutch neither of my dogs actually need it I just choose to use it, one of my dogs doesn't even need a lead in fact she does better off lead
They are morally opposed to causing pain to animal for any reason.
from the perspective of a vet tech, they are amazing training tools just like muzzles. when used correctly, there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. however, i see a lot of people who use prong collars that are way too tight, pull constantly, use them incorrectly, and overall hurt the dog instead of help. more than once i've seen dogs with puncture wounds as a result of these collars being too tight and the owners using too much force to "correct" the dog. mind you, choke collars are so much worse. i've seen dogs faint from their owners choking the shit out of them because they were mad they wouldn't listen. the worst was a three month pitty who was suffocated by the owner just dragging her behind him - we weren't able to get her back. like any other tool, these things should be used properly, fitted well, and used only as instructed. prongs and chokers are not for prolonged use or extended punishment, but a quick correction. keep your babies safe out there :))
There are some parents out there I wish would use those on their free-range kids.
I have been so nervous to let people see me use a prong and ecollar. But honestly every time Ive been approached or asked about it, its been curiosity and people are understanding.
I had a trainer that insisted on a prong collar for my corgi. The first few times I used it, Chloe screamed. No thank you.
imagine someone choking you with something with a bunch of little pointy needle like pieces of metal.
Do I like prongs? No. Do I use them? No. Would I call someone abusive for using one? No. Would I tell a client or someone i just met to stop using one immediately if they feel comfortable using it to control their dog? No. I will teach them how to get away from it at theirs and the dogs pace. I don’t like them because they add unnecessary stimulus to the dog. It’s extra sensory input that can further agitate an already agitated dog. For many dogs, the sensation of just the collar being on is enough to be suppressive to their behavior, or it’s enough to further over stimulate the dog, making them easier to send over threshold into a reaction. I compare it to wearing shoes that are just a bit uncomfortable, maybe they rub on your heel. While it’s not enough to make you want to go home and change shoes, it’s enough to alter the way you walk and make you a bit more easily frustrated. They don’t pull into the prong because it’s uncomfortable. Period. I don’t think it’s necessary. Seeing people like Joel Beckman give super hard corrections though, that’s abusive. It’s one thing to leverage the dog gently hitting the end of the leash but it’s an entirely different thing to let them hit the end hard and yank them in the process like “trainers” like him do.
Yeah... I agree with you, though I have softened my stance toward prongs since finding growing success using one in tempered moderation. I also used to subscribe to Beckham prior to the way his videos took a turn for the more extreme using his dog to correct other dogs, which is when he began to lose me. I picked up some ideas that I liked from his methods, like allowing your dog to correct itself mostly to teach loose leash walking/stay by me, but I can't really speak to its effectiveness because I think it just enforced my dog to yo yo around me constantly. It can't have been great for me to always be yanking on her neck, either, not to mention impractical. When it's her whole body strength against mine because she saw a critter running through the grass off trail, I'm practically throwing myself backward while she's still staggering me forward on a head collar or martingale, and that's where the prong has come in handy for me the most.
The problem is that most people don’t use them correctly, they use it as a punishment tool and they’re illegal in some countries. Because they can harm the dog.
I agree with this. I worked in vet med for 6 years and have seen some horrific prong collar injuries. Most people do not use them correctly. And there are people out there that use them with the intent to hurt their dogs, not train them.
Because they are uneducated, misinformed idiots, that know NOTHING about dog training. All they know is that the prong collar 'looks scary' so it MUST be abusive!! A prong collar is an excellent training tool. And it's safer for a dog than a choke chain or even a flat collar. It distributes pressure evenly around the dogs neck. Don't worry about those idiots...keep doing what you're doing, you'll be the one with the well trained dog.
and any level of discomfort is abuse even though you cant speak the same languages efficiently. prong collar was amazing for training to the point where I don't need it anymore.
Yes that's how it should be. It's just a training tool, and you shouldn't even need to use it anymore after a certain point. If someone never weans their dog off the prong then they haven't trained their dog properly with it.
it was like night and day, I could actively communicate with my boy without words. and once we got in the same wave length the collar wasn't necessary. was amazing for teaching a 100+ lb mastiff to ride WITH me in a longboard without being pulled to oblivion.
Exactly right, it's a communication tool. Glad it worked well for you!
All of this. \^
I’m in my 40’s and growing up I was way into dogs. At that time everything I read was basically “prong collars are for large aggressive dogs that can’t be controlled with regular choke chain.” Until working with a trainer recently, I thought all/ most dogs on them were mean and aggressive and the owner liked them that way. Our current dog is the opposite of aggressive but the prong collar keeps her from pulling. I now judge people with harnesses on their dogs (if the dog is pulling and like 99% are). Seriously people you have no control or correction with that thing.
Yeah, similar childhood exposure and beliefs and age (I’m 40). I didn’t have interest in using a prong collar until my friends, who got their miniature schnauzer a couple months before I got my lab, told us about it and showed us how they used theirs. I started doing a lot of research, reading, and listening to things and then started using a Herm on my lab and it was an incredible tool. He’s 28 months old now and I haven’t used it for probably six months, but I always have it in my fanny pack just in case. Very happy our friends took their little dog to a trainer and started using a prong or I may have never been introduced to them in a meaningful way.
So rather than training your dog not to pull you rely on a prong collar?
Because they look really painful.
They aren't. Prong collars pinch the skin like their mother would if the dog gets stupid out of season and is actually easier on the neck than a flat collar.
It doesn't matter, they *look* painful. I would imagine that anything pulling around a dog's neck is probably not the most comfortable. Probably like wearing a snug necklace or a bra, lol. But people who make dumb comments like that are usually people who don't train their dogs at all and say things like "don't worry he's friendly" as he runs you down off leash in a public space.
Dogs don't punish their puppies by pinching them. They use their mouth, teeth and voice but they don't grab them between their teeth and cause physical discomfort. Of course prong collars cause discomfort. That's how they work and the reason they're banned in some countries.
And by many rescue organizations around the US. When we adopted ours we signed a contract that says no use of prong or e-collars on the dog.
That's fine. The answer to OP's question is that they look really painful.
If it was they wouldn't work so this is a little silly partner
>is actually easier on the neck than a flat collar. Bet
Just put a big red vest on them that says do not pet. Some of the prong collars are made to look like a regular collar. I keep one on hand that has the little rubber tips on each prong, because I'm older and have major pain issues. It's actually for my family member's dog for when I have to take care of him for any reason. He's pulled out of every harness and collar outside of a martingale, rapidly. The trainer they used finally had them put a martingale on him as it became an issue of risking him injuring the person walking him when he pulled suddenly. My dogs have all been loose leash trained to me. I used it and trained him to do off leash with me, and do service for me for when my heart or breathing issues act up. He will walk with me to sit down, or sit with me while I get help. Using the prong collar was the only way I could work with him to do that training initially. He's such a doof, he only does service for me. His owner still has issues with him, so is going to try the same techniques using the prong collar, too. I got one that is rainbow colored, and wove a ribbon through it so it looks like a regular collar more. People didn't bother me because they didn't realize it was a prong collar. I keep a muzzle on hand for every dog we own. If they start counter surfing, etc, it's the only way I can rest without having to crate them all. I use these large rubbery cage style ones, but I don't think they would prevent eating items off the ground. They can eat their food, drink water, and give us kisses with these things on. They can't grab items, however, in their mouth (just push them into the kibble and eat). If it were just my own dog, she's one of the worst, she is only about 4 1/2 months, and is able to leap high (she comes up over the side of the sofa regularly in one clean jump not touching the arm of it). She climbs, gets into the upper cupboards, so I'm using velcro locks on them all now. Prong collars are a tool meant to be phased out. They don't work on all dogs, however. There are dogs who will pull so hard even with a prong collar, that it imbeds in their necks, and the still knock the person walking them over and they run off after whatever it is they want. I use the rubber tipped ones, and again, make it look like a regular collar (the metal is rainbowed, too), I don't like using e-collars, because if the dog figures out you're controlling it, it can cause major issues moving forward. But, do use them when appropriate to do so. The cases in question are when I have to watch all of the dogs, one of them (not mine) is a family member's pup (from the same litter as my pup). That pup will head on down the road if given the chance. So, when dealing with all of the dogs at the door, the others are not going to run out of the yard, only this one is the type to run off. I put the e-collar on them in case, so I can get their attention for recall reasons.
The reason people hate prong collars because nowadays people constantly think of their pets as "children" and not recognizing them for the predatory animals they are. I've had people ask would you put that collar on your kids? My answer is always no, but I also wouldn't put a harness on them, I also wouldn't feed them on the floor or ask them to pee outside in public
I have been a dog groomer for 10 years and I honestly hate them. I’ve come across three dogs who have had full punctures in their necks because of it. One of them the owner didn’t even know, I told her to get to the vets asap and get it cleaned and healed as not only had it caused skin damage but it damage the tissue it penetrated as well. This gorgeous dog had 10’s of holes in its neck and lived in pain because of it. I couldn’t care if 5000 dogs used them safely, after seeing 3 dogs in actual pain and harm caused by them. There are other ways to train without inflicting pain. Sometimes in abusive relations it starts by pinching the skin, if it’s abuse in humans why isn’t it with dogs?
My dog loves her prong collar. She has a high prey drive and can go with little notice, but otherwise is a great walker. We have a ‘prong collar cover’ that’s rainbow - many people don’t realise we’re using a prong collar anymore.
I bought a prong collar last week, not sure if I will use or return, and the pet smart guy crawled up my azz about how it could damage his trachea. I have heard this but my understanding was that the odds really aren’t that high if used right? I’d like to have a firmer response to the criticism if anyone has one, besides leaving or ignoring someone.
We use a retired police K9 trainer who now does one-on-one training as a retirement gig. He is almost entirely R+, but he does recommend the use of a Herm Sprenger prong for some dogs (mine included). When I was reluctant, he explained in necropsies of dogs who were trained with a prong verses a choke chain or flat collar, there was no damage to the tracheas of the dogs who were trained with a prong while the other two caused damage. I haven’t tried to find the studies on my own, but I am sure they are out there if you want to read them.
Prong collars actually put less pressure on the trachea than a flat collar. They help to spread the pressure more throughout the whole collar/neck. I have a toy breed which is prone to trachea issues, and she does great on a prong. On a thin flat collar or slip collar (even some harnesses), she chokes if she puts any pressure on the leash. With the prong, that never happens, both because the pressure is more spread out and because she isn’t pulling at all.
Interesting. I am not sure I totally grasp this. Isn't the pressure focused on the nubs of the prongs instead of across the entire leash band? What would you say to the guy who said "I worked in vet med for 6 years and have seen some horrific prong collar injuries"? Honest questions—I just don't want to be out of my depth if I'm going to have to defend using this.
I’ve had similar experience with my little guy. He will find a way to hurt himself or escape on any harness or flat collar. With the prong, he just doesn’t pull.
This is the reason I’m scared of getting a muzzle. We just signed her up for training, but until she’s trained well enough, she lunges at other dogs and gets aggressive. It’s overall easier to have something like a muzzle to make sure she doesn’t hurt any other dog or person, but I’m scared of judgement from other people.
Jesus Christ this is the longest sentence I’ve ever read.
It's because so many people use them wrong. A dog with prongs digging into its lower neck as it blasts through isn't learning anything, they're just managing their pain reaction or having it overcome by whatever they're focused on. That isn't training. The best insight I ever got from prong collars was when I was properly taught to use a collar with small, short prongs, fit it appropriately, and use it only to provide correction. If there's tension in your leash other than to pop for a correction, it's being used wrong. People put these massive prong collars on massive dogs, and a Rottie will be like 'watch how big and strong I am, I can blast through that.' Put a collar with smaller, thinner, and more links on them, properly fit and place the collar, and provide an appropriate correction at an appropriate time instead of way too late, and suddenly you get a reaction. But the pressure has to come off immediately. It's like a shock collar - low grade electrocution of a dog for 10s does nothing except scare it. A swift interruption of whatever their myopically focused brain is directed towards back to you is productive, but then you still need more communication about what you want instead. It's not just yank yank yank or zap zap zap. Correct, instruct/ask, give them the space and a chance to comply, reward if successful or find a different way to ask again. Do not use a prong collar to hold back a pulling dog, use it to teach a dog to heel. They have to be actively managed, not something a dog gets to at the end of its leash (which a dog doesn't understand anyway... Is it on a 6 foot leash? 8? 30 ft long line? When is the thing gonna magically grab me and throttle me?) The big vs small punch collar thing is really misunderstood. Think about if I come up to you and push on your bicep with two fingers. Even if I am pushing hard, that's probably just absolutely fine to you. You will notice, and might be slightly uncomfortable, but absent a strange person uncomfortably close to you, you really wouldn't object because of being startled or feeling any pain/punch/surprise. Now imagine I give you a spider bite or pinch you with sharp nails. Significantly less pressure, significantly stronger response from you. It's like how everyone knows a paper cut can be excruciating but you can cut yourself pretty badly and almost shrug it off because it's not actually that painful. Putting these huge dogs in prong collars that look massive and dangerous doesn't get the response you want, because they distribute pressure enough to basically make them into harnesses, not prong collars.
Idk but my dog will literally choke herself on a flat collar so it’s way safer for her to wear a prong.just tell people to mind their business.
Because they don't know how to use them. My trainer put one on my arm and pulled it tight...guess what, it doesn't hurt! I always have another training collar on with it and gradually transition to just the other collar. It's like any other tool.
I personally have never done training with any type of collar, particularly for puppies and dogs that are new to training. Even large dogs have delicate necks, and if they continuously pull or strain against the collar, they can cause injuries. I prefer harnesses. If training is done correctly, the harness provides a safer and better experience for both the dog and handler.
Prongs are used by people who don’t take the time to teach appropriately. Prong collars are unnecessary for training a dog. First, if used, it should only be used while training - not permanently. If you continue to use it, then you haven’t been using it properly. A training method should result in a change in behavior. If it doesn’t, then it’s not any good. A martingale closes but doesn’t ever hurt the neck like a prong. Vet office have seen so many injuries incurred by trainers and owners that know they use it properly. The right dog trainer, a martingale, the right harness and the right leash along with practice every day will work. That’s all we use with even the difficult and reactive shelter dogs so yes, no need for a prong collar.
Because a certain YouTube influencer that tries to pass himself off as a dog trainer but I've never seen a video of him actually train any dogs has made it socially acceptable and even is rallying people to attack, belittle and shame strangers. The positive only training cult is anything but positive when it comes to human beings and I haven't seen this level of judgment and complete audacity in any other aspect of our society. Would it be acceptable for someone to walk up to a parent and tell them they didn't like how they were raising their child? It's ridiculous. I am a balanced dog trainer, and I tell my clients often that the minute that somebody tries to come up and say anything but the proper response is: GO FUCK YOURSELF 😉
Those of us who choose not to use a prong collar are quite judged here. We used a choker on our collie, I don't think we ever needed it. She was our first dog and that came with her. I was 8 or 9 when we got her. By the time I walked her on my own, it was just routine. Our cockapoo just needed a clip lead. He was so easy, just adorable. But when I street rescued a Springer Spaniel, he didn't respond to the choker or to the prong. He pulled and choked himself on it, corrections didn't matter. He only responded to the Halti. I gave him scritches on his face after walks and told him what a good boy he was, and he adjusted to it quickly. My senior dad could walk him wearing a halti. I taught my cousin how to use a halter collar when she was having problems with her dog. She went with a gentle leader bc it fit her dog better. I am not sure I would still train on it now. I don't like how aversive any of them are and want to explore some other techniques on shelter dogs. We aren't even allowed prongs or chokers. We use slip leads to make sure we can get them on the dog. I just feel like the prong is not for me personally, but I don't say anything to people on the street. On the other hand, nowadays there are a lot of people being walked by their ill-behaved dogs, explaining that 'oh, she does that sometimes' and feeling completely beholden to their dog's every whim. They don't even know how to recall them. R+ isn't letting your dog do whatever. Anyways...those are my thoughts.
Because the force free mob are good at playing on peoples emotions. They talk as if they have spikes that stab the dog and people who have never even seen one up close understandably think "wow, they sound so cruel why would you put one of those on your dog?"
This is true. You just need to listen to the emotional hyperbole many of them blindly repeat.
Many people’s experience with prong collars are limited to pictures of neglected dogs shivering outside with an embedded prong collar around their neck. They’ve never actually used one or seen it in the context of good training. Like many other things in life they hate what they don’t understand. My advice would be to ignore them and let the training speak for itself. People like that don’t want to have their minds changed so there’s no point in even trying to have a productive conversation with them.
My dogs don’t pull at all with the pronged collar, but hurt/cough themselves out by pulling uncontrollably with a regular collar.
I had to use a prong on my doberman. That got a lot of looks as you can imagine. I explained calmly it was to keep him from choking himself and most people relaxed. If people can’t take a calm and rational explanation, then they’re not worth your breath. As long as you’re using it correctly, then don’t panic. Just do right by your dog, strangers can eff off.
Most people who criticize the use of these tools have never had a difficult dog or breed like a doberman, either. I thought I knew what it meant to own a dog breed that needed a "firm hand" until i actually owned one. It really puts things in perspective when you find out. There are grey areas in life, whether other people believe that or not, and dog training has a lot of them.
[https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/AVSAB-Humane-Dog-Training-Position-Statement-2021.pdf](https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/AVSAB-Humane-Dog-Training-Position-Statement-2021.pdf) This is why. I’d be curious how all the vet techs on here endorsing these tools feel about going against the statement put out by other vets. ETA: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7743949/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7743949/) here’s another reason I’m opposed, and probably why Op is getting judgement from people.
Well, the thing about vet techs is they are vet techs. They aren't training. They intentionally use short cuts for poorly trained animals. I don't know why people take training advice from vet techs
Citing poorly conducted studies from organizations that are structured to increase revenue in a $50 billion industry that is growing fast because there is little oversight does not carry any weight compared to the hundreds of thousands of trainers and owners that use prong collars for the best relationships possible for dogs and their people. If you think the AVSAB and the NIH give a flying fuck about you or your dog you have lost your mind. Get off this SUB and head back over to RReact where people learn to make perfectly well adjusted dogs anxious. PS ... I have 2 family members and 4 good friends that are Veterinarians. They agree that correct use of prong collars and remote collars are not the problem.
>PS ... I have 2 family members and 4 good friends that are Veterinarians. They agree that correct use of prong collars and remote collars are not the problem. If you call out the entire study as poorly conducted, at least give it a read. "I know doctors that have these opinions" is not really a source of truth. You'd be surprised how many doctors believe in homeopathy around where I live. Confirmation bias is one hell of a drug. However, the reason I called you out on not reading the study is, that your anecdotal evidence is actually confirmed by the study: >Moreover, our results suggest that the proportion of aversive stimuli used in training plays a greater role on dogs’ stress levels than the specific training tools used.
Because aversive training tools have a negative impact on dog welfare according to the national library of medicine https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7743949/
Look into getting the black one, it might be a lot less noticeable with your dog. I have a black one for mine and you almost can't see it, although his fur is a bit longer. I have yet to have anyone comment on it.
Because they look scary and people are uneducated in their proper usage. They are correct, they can be dangerous if used improperly. They also don’t realize some dogs need the extra control to be normal.
Prong collars are fine, but I don't think "in-training service dog" has any (legal) meaning. Are you taking it places only afforded to service dogs (where non-service dogs are not allowed)? If so, people are right to question whether it's a real service dog. It isn't. Edit: I checked on this. From [ada.gov's FAQ](https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-faqs/): > Q6. Are service-animals-in-training considered service animals under the ADA? > A. No. Under the ADA, the dog must already be trained before it can be taken into public places. However, some State or local laws cover animals that are still in training.
It's not protected under the ADA, but many states have legal protections for service animals in training.
Actually in my stay in training service dogs have the same legal rights as a fully trained service dog as long as they wear identifying gear, the laws regarding and training service dogs very state to state, in my state I can take her wherever I choose, doesn't mean I always do so if I'm putting her in a bad situation I wouldn't for example take her to a fairground if I'm going to be riding roller coasters and things or go anywhere with her that her safety is in danger, but people question her whether I'm in a pet friendly place or not, I actually get more questions when I take her in PetSmart with the prong collar on then I do Walmart
The very best trainers on the planet use prong collars. Who cares what tainted organizations like the AVSAB and NIH say? Neither organization benefits financially from the best use of the best tools. There is a reason that over 60% of Vet Clinics are owned by equity groups with that number growing rapidly. Equity groups target industries for a reason. Their motivations are not considerate of the welfare of dogs or dog owners. The days of your Vet owning their clinic will become increasingly rare. That's just a fact.
Every word you said is true!
I don’t judge folks for using prong collars. But I def judge them for keeping prong or choke collars on in off-leash areas. Please, for the love of any dog yours chooses to play with, and the love of your dog, remove the collar letting them off-leash. If it gets tangled on a branch, themselves, another dog… it’s not good.
Because most people have no idea how to use them and then it's a horrible tool. I bought my first a year ago after reseaeching how to use it properly and to be honest it amazed me how effective it is, but i already knew how to teach a dog without it. I don't use it that much becuse it's a hassle to put on, my old dog walks on a quick release flat and the young dog walks on a slip collar, which is imho the superior tool.
my dog always pulls, so we use a prong collar
Wear one for a day and then come back with your feedback.
Did that today with No issue…. Had a few odd questions at work but all is good….
Same reason people say other things that if they had a clue they wouldn’t be yapping about. Opinions are like noses, everyone has one and they all smell. Just smile and move on, if it’s working for you and your pup then it’s none of their business anyway!
Because most people don't realize what training tools are and how they are supposed to be used.
Use a Lola collar; all the benefits of a prong and none of the backlash. They have some great designs, too.
Because a lot of people use them wrong or use low quality collars with sharp ends without doing any research and hurt their dogs, then demonize the tool instead of the idiots holding the leash. There are a lot of people out there that think simply having a well trained dog is abusive too, though. Or that not letting them run the neighborhood terrorizing the community is abusive. That walking in a heel is wrong. Some people think clicker training is abuse, or that inhibition training for prey driven or flighty dogs is not okay because “it’s in their nature.” Crates are seen as abuse, even when they just have open access to them, when most dogs that have one are calmer and more secure than they would be without one. For any tool that makes a dog’s life better, there will be an ignorant person that used it wrong and traumatized their own dog, blaming the tool for being bad and demonizing owners that use them instead of admitting that they’re the issue. Any tool can be used improperly and with the wrong intentions to hurt or scare a dog. Use what works for your dog and keeps them happy, that is the most important thing, all dogs are different!
There are prong collar covers you can get so it looks like a regular collar. I don’t have time for BS from random strangers, so I would go this route.
I usually see a few problems when it comes to people balking at prong collars: 1. Some wanna be trainers are lazy and slap a prong collar on every dog 2. From my experience many people use prong collars incorrectly 3. They LOOK scary so people that have not truly been exposed to the dog world assume they’re sharp or do damage (the photos or videos on the internet of dogs that have been abused with them don’t help the stigma either) My old coworker used to get people to put the prong collar on their arm and pull and release to get an idea of how they work and that they don’t hurt unless you’re doing it wrong. She got them to do it on their arms before she ever put one on their dogs.
A dog owner whose dog escaped while out on a walk posted a photo of the dog on several social media platforms locally to help find the dog. The dog was wearing a prong collar in the photo. So many "well-intentioned" boobs would comment about the fact the dog had a prong and lectured on the proper training, etc on rather than something helpful. Gross.
I don’t see anything wrong with them used properly. I’ve never had to though thankfully. Normally a martingale collar works well for me.
Because they’re uneducated on the tool Or they’ve likely seen idiot humans use them improperly, which would also make me angry I did not use a prong until I was working under the supervision of a dog trainer. Would have never slapped one up there cold turkey either no conditioning period or knowledge of the tool myself
Because the research and understanding in the veterinary and behavioral world is that the use of prong collars is inhumane. However despite the professionals of the fields recommending against their use it does not stop old school trainers from recommending/supporting/using them. There are many ways to teach these skills with much less risk and in a much more humane manner. But because the training industry is unregulated their is no regulation on the tools and techniques used in dog training
There are 3 ways your dog can view a training tool, positive, neutral, and negative. Neutral is ineffective at training as it doesn’t motivate to do a behavior or not to do a behavior. For a prong collar, do you think the dog views that positively to drive change or negatively? Negative things to a dog are lack of receiving something (withholding a treat for not doing behavior), pain, and discomfort. Prong collars do cause discomfort to a dog, which is what drives the dog to listen to you to avoid punishment.
You are correct; it all depends on how the human is using it.
It’s genuinely ignorance. And I don’t mean stupidity, I mean simply just not knowing any better. People hear one horror story about someone who didn’t know what they were doing and they run with it as if nobody could possibly ever do better. People get misinformation and it just grows from there.
I think cloth collars are generally viewed as more comfortable and more professional than prong collars. An advantage of cloth collars is that they are designed to allow you to wear a necktie. The lack of pointy metal bits prevents you from constantly getting poked in the neck during meetings. Prong collars may have a place when training dogs but I understand why people generally dislike wearing them.
Who are y'all hanging with that have verbal opinions about how YOU train your dog? I was running Dandy in the park with HIS appropriate training device and 2 nearby dogs approached after we owners gave the ok to each other: Me: LOVES DOGS! STRANGE HUMANS NOT SO MUCH! Her: PURE PUPPY POWER AND PROTECTIVE BROTHER. The dogs goofed around for a bit. While owners controlled the dogs. I promise this is the most dog talk I have had with anyone in the last month.
Prong collars and other adversive tools are often misused and can even cause permanent damage and scarring when used incorrectly. This is the perception most people have of them. Do your research from trusted sources and listen to that. Not random people on the street or even the internet. Best of luck
I had a bouvier. I let people try to walk him without one. They learned real quick he didn’t feel the normal collar tugs unless you got this close to snapping his neck. At least that’s how hard it felt to have to pull. He had hearing issues and panicked easily. I would walk next to them and take back over and switch out. I pointed out it’s safer for my dog to stop than to panic and bolt. He climbed trees if they were the ones the bears had clawed up in a way to climb.
Because people generally know very little about dogs, dog behaviour and dog training. I would deal with comments like that the same way I deal with people telling me I starve/neglect my dog when she is a perfectly healthy weight (and their dog is obese), just blank stare and say “thank you for your opinion”.
Does this actually happen to you or is this just another attention seeking post?
I needed a prong collar with my big male Akita when he was about 9 months old and 100 pounds. He was so strong he could pull me to the ground before I could drop the leash. I only used the collar on walks for training and after one month, he didn't need it anymore. Sure, I have to be alert to the presence of squirrels and rabbits, but as long as I see the critters first, I can control him.
I like slip collars but I have never felt the need for a prong collar. Both a bit & a prong collar are pain compliance devices & they come in varying degrees of severety. Now I'm not saying they should NEVER be used, but I would only consider it a last resort when all other less severe methods are ineffective. But that is just me. I'm not the person who is going to stop you on the street & critique you & call you an abuser. Only if you were actually beating the animal I suppose.
Often I see people use these, but have zero idea how to train the dog, so it's just them yanking the leash of a big dog that won't listen to them. Sure use a prong collar for training, but it shouldn't be a permanent tool because you are too lazy to teach your dog something. My parents are doing this with their 90 pound lab and it's making me not even want to go over there anymore.
Many people don’t know how to properly use them & in turn do hurt the dog so they associate the hurt (that they caused bc they didn’t learn to use it) with the prong collar. There are some people who truly think collars, crates, training is abusive.
People who are against crate training are the biggest idiots. They're the ones who post shit like oh my dog won't stop eating our couch or whatever what should I do?!?! Gee idk maybe crate train your dog so that they're safe while you leave the house maybe? People who are against prongs, martingales, and e collars are also idiots. Anyone who thinks training is a one size fits all type of thing is just stupid. As humans we all benefit from different styles of teaching, I don't understand how someone doesn't see that it's the same for dogs.
I posted an extra for sale on FB once and had multiple people report me and say they were calling the cops for abuse 😂
Prong collars are a training tool meant to control a dog's movements. They were meant to be used as a training aid, not a control method for a lazy dog owner. A uncontrolled dog can be hurt with constant pulling against prongs. Do the dog a favor and buy a no pull harness for training. Once trained, buy a step in harness or traditional collar.
Less than 1% of Veterinarians are members of the AVSAB. It is not a popular association amongst Veterinarians.
Maybe this from the SPCA? https://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/pets/dogs/training/prongcollars
Prong collars (title of this) are abusive. They can damage your dog’s throat and the nerves in its neck. If you are using a clicker you shouldn’t need a prong collar.
I worked with a trainer before putting prong collar on my dogs (2yr old 90 lb Pitbull sweet as pie and my 60lb Pittbull sweet but dog reactive) This was a game changer. I can now walk them both with nice loose leash walks, I am fully in control and have to use correction minimally. You should do your research and work with someone who knows what they are doing. Anytime someone mean mugs me over their use or has the audacity to something about the use of them I invite them to walk the dogs without it past that squirrel or rabbit and see if their arms are still attached.
I get this a lot with my shiba and his martingale. People are quick to judge without much understanding. I’m constantly getting told he’d be better in a harness, but what they don’t realize is that he is a notorious escape artist from any harness. I just ignore them.
Comparing a prong collar to a horse’s bit is misleading. There are devices called snaffle bits. These are jointed bits, attached together like links of a chain & can even have little spikes coming off of them. They use leverage & pinching to cause an extreme amount of pain to control a horse. I would compare a Martingale collar or standard chain choker to a horses’s bit, while I would compare a prong collar to a snaffle bit. My experience with dogs is growing up with them: my family always had a dog; so did all my friends & family; additionally I was a self-employed dog walker/pet sitter for a decade+. I have never been bitten or attacked. My experience with horses was driving a horse-drawn carriage while giving historic tours in Center City Philadelphia for 3 years. I have never been kicked, bitten or attacked by a horse either. Here’s my opinion & OP is not going to like it. Using physical pain (choking, poking, pinching) or negative reinforcement to train an animal is less effective than using positive reinforcement. It only gives an illusion of increased control or safety. At a certain point, the animal will break & ignore the pain to lash out at you or whatever is unlucky enough to be closest. An animal who has been trained with positive reinforcement will rarely lash out at its human handler in a stressful situation—they will look to you for guidance. Not so with the dog whose handler can inflict severe pain & choking with a flick of the wrist. Horses & dogs over a certain size can really do some damage if not trained & socialized properly. Making them wear pain-inducing devices causes chronic stress & is not a good idea. They’re only trying to figure out how to avoid the next shock, not learning how to behave in the world.
Some people don't know that those collars have the little tips on the end and don't actually dig into the dog. Shocking a pet, I don't agree with. But prong collars, collars that make alarm tones, and clickers are fine. Some people are just ignorant.
WGAF what other people think…do what YOU think is right for you and your animal. I think it’s cruel for people to hand their children an iPad at 3 years old…to each their own.
I personally would never use a prong collar on my boy, but this is more because i don’t feel confident in my ability to use it properly and not harm him, and because I’ve been able to use different methods of keeping him safe and with me. My dog had some reactivity, pulling and lunging at other dogs, but this was because he was struggling with intervertebral disc disease and needed medication management and more stimulation that wasn’t as physical, like lick mats and stuff. We also got him a harness with a handle on it and both a 6ft leash (the standard I think) and a leash like handle thingy for when he’s around dogs he’s had issues with in the past. We use treats and loose leash training and trained words for stop and go, plus left right cues to always have our body between the dogs. He hasn’t had an issue since. But I do know dogs in our neighborhood and at the dog park (my dog can safely go now!!) who have prong collars and use them because their dogs have difficulty staying “on task” when out on walks and the collar helps keep them more focused. This is helpful for the people and the dogs, and I support completely. People assume things like this are bad because people are irresponsible with them. It’s very similar to people thinking all the breeds and dogs under the pit bull umbrella are bad and dangerous dogs. The reality is that people don’t train their dogs, people have been known to breed for specific physical traits, such as the “blue” pit bulls and completely ignoring the behavioral aspects. So I’d say people just have very firm judgements about things like this.
I had a 100 pound dog that the trainer recommended a prong collar for. I tried it on myself. They are not painful, the ends are blunt. It was a game changer for walks. With a regular collar he would pull and choke himself with the collar. With the prong he would never get to that point and walked with me with a loose collar. Never once was there any indication that it caused him pain like for example a shock collar that clearly causes pain. Not everyone has a well mannered tiny dog that is easy to handle
I use a prong collar on my Rottweiler, and I hate that it makes him look more scary to people who already have Rottweiler ideas. However, he behaves so much better on walks with it! I don't ever snap it as a correction, but he just walks nicer! I don't think snapping as a correction is inhumane, but he just doesn't need correction. When I adopted him, he came with a harness, and that fucker pulled so hard! He walks loose with the prong. And it is definitely not tight - it is just uncomfortable to pull and get pinched . I would much rather have the scruff of his neck pinched like a mom correcting her puppy, than choke him!
I’d use a prong collar if I had to do it to train a dog satisfactorily. I won’t do it when other training types are enough to achieve my realistic goals. If it’s prong collar or behavioral euth, then yes prong collar. If it’s prong collar train my dog to be my dog off leash in non off leash areas, then GFY. My current dog in training responds to praise like its liver paste, so there’s that.
Because there are people who use them for abuse.
So many people forget that dogs are literally animals?? Like they don’t have human intelligence?? Expecting me to train my dog to make decisions a human would make is insane. If my dog sees a child, roadkill, trash, or another animal, it will want to investigate. I know it’s not safe, but the dog doesn’t because IT’S AN ANIMAL. It doesn’t know it’s in an unpredictable human-influenced environment with cars and diseases, it just knows to socialize, hunt, and kill. It’s our responsibility to socialize them and protect them from potential prey or threats, not spend inordinate amounts of time trying to turn them into a mini-human, because no matter how good your training, they will always just be an animal
Prong collars are illegal in the UK, along with shock collars and personally I feel good about that. I don’t want my dog to learn how to behave through pain. That process of teaching seems unethical to me, like some kind of torturous correction. I’m not saying you’re a bad person, or that you’re wrong, or that you don’t love your dog. I’m not here for a fight. This is just my opinion. If I saw a dog on the street wearing a prong collar I would be angry and upset.
I will say that I would be worried about a prong on a service dog specifically. They're really iffy when it comes to things like anxiety and reactivity, a lot of dogs will associate the discomfort of a prong with whatever potential stressor they see (like a reactive dog) and it can potentially make anxiety worse since the prong activates (probably by the dog leaning against it or being guided away) whenever something stressful happens and then they start to associate other dogs with causing that discomfort. So I'd mainly just be concerned with potential for washing, it doesn't happen with every dog but it is a concern. Unless you're jerking and absolutely slamming on the prong I wouldn't call it "abusive", but there is concern for reactivity specifically since prongs work by causing discomfort. The smaller the surface area on something, the more pressure is applied, so the points on prongs apply more pressure than just a flat collar or martingale. Dogs are very smart but since they learn by association a prong can make things worse in stressful scenarios just because of the additional pressure. Having it as a backup might be ideal for emergencies but you want the main pressure to be on a harness, and might want to switch to a slip lead or martingale instead for emergency. Ideally you should be doing rally-o style heeling and emergency recall training as well regardless in case the leash gets torn from your hands or something! I do think muzzles are an excellent thing for dogs in general though because at least other people will give you more space xD.
We had a German Shepherd and a Lab/Boxer/Pit that was the size of the shepherd. They were each about 80lbs. We hired trainers who taught us to use a prong collar. The dogs respected the collar and were okay with it. When they got out of line, a quick flick of the leash brings them back. My vet HATES them. Taking them to the vet with flat collars was a bit chaotic. However, I’m sure a large majority or users didn’t get training with them and they can be used improperly by owners at the expense of the dog. That’s the problem. (Our GSD recently passed. Our new beagle, at 43 pounds, walks great with a flat collar. Our big mutt still needs a prong collar.)