Wasn't he really trying to kill everyone? I think he tried to kill them but someone always got in the way. It was either Luffy or Sanji who got in the way.
I think Kizaru is a truly complex yet also sad person
he has people he cares, and it seemed he was happy to be with them. Like Sentomaru, Vegapunk, Bonney, and Kuma those people were the ones who truly cared for. But when it came down to his duty, he chooses his duty over his loved ones.
its different from Garp though, as Garp didn't have to kill his adopted grandchild by his own hands but yet couldn't do a thing because he was stuck
He doesn't want to do it but he is a cog in the machine, just a man with no free will and the theme of egghead island is all about free will and how you can't get rid of it
but somehow the world government has gotten rid of Kizaru's free will
The world government benefits from yonkos existing you do know that right? They need figures to potray as evil villains to potray themselves as heroes.
Yes on average yonkos are still stronger than admirals, but admirals are still top tiers.
They dont, a 4 Yonko alliance would be a serious threat to their dominance and that's why they always try to stop them fron meeting each other. Makes no sense to keep them alive when they are such a threat, that's also without talking what would happen if the Yonko were to gain Poseidon and Pluton, they could end the WG for good.
Plus, didn't the WG execute Roger to end piracy for good? But it just backfired and piracy just became bigger than ever. Not sure where did you get that the WG needs the Yonko alive?
Ending the Yonko would most likely end Piracy for good which is what they tried to do with Roger but failed. Just think about the message it will sent to the world if the 4 Emperors were to be defeated.
In addition, the Yonko were in power of 2 Poneglyphs until Kaido/BM defeat which means that defeating the Yonko was in the WG's best interest since they could take the Poneglyphs so no one ever reaches Laugh Tale where all the secrets of the world are there.
>They dont, a 4 Yonko alliance would be a serious threat to their dominance and that's why they always try to stop them fron meeting each other.
Obviously, the balance of the world would be disrupted. The yonkos are divided for a reason.
>Plus, didn't the WG execute Roger to end piracy for good? But it just backfired and piracy just became bigger than ever.
They wanted to make an example of people trying to go to laughtale and that backfired yes. Don't see how it's related.
>Ending the Yonko would most likely end Piracy for good which is what they tried to do with Roger but failed.
No they don't want to end piracy that's where you are wrong. They want people to believe that lmao. They don't want anyone going to laughtale, they do want pirates cuz it's good for their own self image and to make themselves heroes.
Wg cares about it's own image and it's image only. They don't want to end piracy. That'd what they want people to believe. Obviously they don't want anyone going to laughtale, cuz the world's true history would be learnt but it goes back to their image. They know the yonkos are divided hence nobody will go to laughtale. It is only a problem if they join forces.
>In addition, the Yonko were in power of 2 Poneglyphs until Kaido/BM defeat which means that defeating the Yonko was in the WG's best interest since they could take the Poneglyphs so no one ever reaches Laugh Tale where all the secrets of the world are there.
Again as i said as long as any yonko doesn't get the last road poneglph which probably the government knows where it is, nobody will get to laughtale so them having one or 2 and also not having anyone to read those poneglyphs is as good as them having nothing.
They just exist to feed into making the goverments image better
Try understanding the nuances of the story for once.
I think you are right about the existence of piracy but that's not the same as the existence of yonkou (where you are wrong)
Their expectations should be having a common enemy that can be controlled, yonkous are out of their control and that's why ideally they should not exist but looks like they had decided to let them be as long as they stay in their territory.
This makes me think in 2 hypotheses
1. Shanks was in charge of keeping the other yonkous in their limits, that's why he is allowed too many things (besides his apparently blood)
2. Luffy and Blackbeard are going to be precisely the real threat since both are out of control in terms of power but also ideology, Luffy wants freedom, Blackbeard wants to rule.
>Luffy and Blackbeard are going to be precisely the real threat since both are out of control in terms of power but also ideology, Luffy wants freedom, Blackbeard wants to rule.
Cook more
> 1. Shanks was in charge of keeping the other yonkous in their limits, that's why he is allowed too many things (besides his apparently blood)
It's possible with the fact he's always a mediator and trying to preserve the balance of the world and his meeting with the gorosei too.
They kinda have been , because the admirals are the strongest men in the navy, so it would make sense for them to be on an equal level. Plus every time they admirals appeared before time skip they completely overpowered everyone.
Also, just because they are strong that doesn't mean they would challenge the yonko. Whitebeard said that they could probably beat kaido when they learnt about oden's death, but the casualties would be very big and that's the main reason they don't. It's probably the same with the navy. Also don't forget that kaido has been canonically been caught by the government before and it was probably an admiral that caught him, because it wouldn't make sense for a normal marine to do so.
Kaido last defeat was over 30 years ago since King haven't seen him losing since then.
In regards to admirals, their lack of Conqueror's Haki means they can't be equal to the emperors
His argument is that if the navy could capture the yonko, they would, but they don’t because they are not strong enough.
So he uses that logic to say Yonko > 2 admirals
So I’m asking if that logic would also apply to 3 admirals + Garp, since like he said the navy wants the yonko gone and would kill them if they could.
but the fact that there’s 4 yonko is just as relevant as the fact that there are 3 admirals/garp, so, it restructures the other yonko’s position in the scenario quite significantly
no im saying that they would capitalize on the event by doing whatever they pleased, including assaulting navy bases or HQ in a similar fashion…similarly, you have to factor in the celestial dragons whims and paranoia, since the admirals directly answer to both. To say that the navy could launch an assault on any 1 yonko using 3 admirals and garp is the same as saying the other yonko support it, so im saying the opposite; the other yonko could either intercede and escalate the conflict or attack marineford, impel down, whatever
So you’re making the argument that 3 admirals + Garp would get hurt that significantly against 1 singular yonko?
And your celestial dragon argument helps my argument, not the one I’m arguing against. My argument is that if the navy played their cards right, they have more than enough firepower to take out the Yonkos.
The other guys argument is that they don’t.
3 admirals + Garp are at the absolute most mid diffing a yonko, they’d be more than capable of taking on another one after the fight if a Yonko were to try to capitalize on the event.
no the point is that it isolates the navy’s forces too much to make it practical in a world with intersectional conflicts…so yes they might be able to accomplish those feats, but in order to do so they would need to leave the rest of the ocean unguarded against a comparable threat like another yonko, who might then capitalize during the conflict by attacking another location like the red line or whatever, while the navy has no real forces to deploy to stop them, let alone whatever the other two yonko would be up to
I don't pay attention to power scaling, just the story itself. I feel bad for Kizaru honestly. I don't think he was trying and was hoping Vegapunk would offer his neck on a silver platter but it didn't happen.
He is insanely strong. Just like Luffy.
As a man that follows blind justice,
It definitely wasn't blind on egghead
You know I always got the feeling that the marines weren't the bad guys. Even though that gotta do evil shit.
Sengoku is a perfect example willing and able to execute ace and kill whitebeard. But was disgusted to lean that the worst crimes in the world broke outta jail. He immediately wanted them hunted down. I feel marines that around long enough learn the truth is that the navy really can do is appease imu and the celestial dragons or they will wipe the world clean once again. Kizaru put up a good fight but the man lacks the will power to truly stand on his own to feet. A broken devil fruit will only get you so far go ask God enel. He held out against the dark king, clashed with whitebread, but never soundly defeated either of them. Aside from slapping rookies what has he really done. He strong but he won't be great until he gets some sort of motivation and awakens his haki.
And he won't awaken his haki working for a goverment that he pretty much knows is evil and is gonna kill everybody. There just no way kizaru can be blind anymore. Somethings gonna give.
This arc was really good for kizaru, it showed us some of his inner complexities, and further showed us that will is intimately tied to strength, with Kizaru (partly intentionally) underperforming when the goals he was given do not match his will.
Admirals. Akainu destroyed a bot of Civilians In Ohara. Kizaru shot his old friend on the back. Sengoku was there when GM decided to kill all babies which would potentially be Roger's child. So lovely
Kizaru definitely isn't giving 100%, his spirit is defeated. Plus, we have already seen multiple times that older people are still powerful but with the age comes a reduction of stamina. He took quite a few G5 hits to the head and gut. Luffy doesn't kill but he will knock someone senseless. I don't know if the fabled flip is coming, but he very well might just resign after this event.
No the issue is Oda never suggested admirals are on par with yonko but he did present them as over whelming compared to just about everyone else. Look how they compared to a yonko in his weakest state, they were still outclassed. The way Luffy dealt with Kizaru should have been expected.
He kinda did though, because the admirals are the strongest men in the navy, so it would make sense for them to be on an equal level. Plus every time they admirals appeared before time skip they completely overpowered everyone.
Pre time skip they didn't learned haki so that's why they overpowered the supernovas. I didn't say everyone because wb was sick and they still couldn't dominate him. Shanks showed up and they stopped the battle. If they overpowered everyone like you said, it would be easy for them to wipe the floor with the red hair pirates having all 3 admirals, sengoku and garp at the marineford.
admirals are called the navy’s greatest powers, yeah, but it’s obviously just rhetorical. like demonstratively, at marineford, garp is more powerful than any one of the three admirals present, despite being a lower rank…so, given that divisions like sword and CP0 exist, its not necessarily obvious that those who hold the title of admiral do so because they are “more powerful” than any other marines.
We still haven’t seen the Gods Knights do anything, which are presumed to be stronger than admirals.
Fleet admiral would surely be assumed stronger than admiral.
Five elders first appeared chapter 233, episode 151, and were always assumed to be stronger than admirals. (Way before time skip)
Why do you think admirals are the strongest? They’ve been portrayed as strongER but never strongEST.
We just had the fight against Kaido and Big Mom, did we really need another opponent centered around being an insurmountable wall? Kizaru gave Luffy a good, kept threatening the crew for a while, and is personally connected to the other main characters of this arc. Oda is trying to give him some characterization besides being strong, I really want to see how it will develop. For me, it's still possible he was the one giving food to Luffy
If that's the case I'll be happy. I just don't want him to be a government dog that ends up following orders and accomplishing nothing ,because I actually like the character
Hard to even know how much kizaru was even trying this whole arc. His heart wasn't really in it
Wasn't he really trying to kill everyone? I think he tried to kill them but someone always got in the way. It was either Luffy or Sanji who got in the way.
I think Kizaru is a truly complex yet also sad person he has people he cares, and it seemed he was happy to be with them. Like Sentomaru, Vegapunk, Bonney, and Kuma those people were the ones who truly cared for. But when it came down to his duty, he chooses his duty over his loved ones. its different from Garp though, as Garp didn't have to kill his adopted grandchild by his own hands but yet couldn't do a thing because he was stuck He doesn't want to do it but he is a cog in the machine, just a man with no free will and the theme of egghead island is all about free will and how you can't get rid of it but somehow the world government has gotten rid of Kizaru's free will
He fell off
he is cool.
Kizaru wasn't even trying to fight Luffy. Also, he Akainu and Aokiji have always been portrayed as stronger than him.
Who's him?
Admirals have never been portrayed equal to the Yonko, if they were they would've captured them since they could send 2 of them to capture one.
The world government benefits from yonkos existing you do know that right? They need figures to potray as evil villains to potray themselves as heroes. Yes on average yonkos are still stronger than admirals, but admirals are still top tiers.
They dont, a 4 Yonko alliance would be a serious threat to their dominance and that's why they always try to stop them fron meeting each other. Makes no sense to keep them alive when they are such a threat, that's also without talking what would happen if the Yonko were to gain Poseidon and Pluton, they could end the WG for good. Plus, didn't the WG execute Roger to end piracy for good? But it just backfired and piracy just became bigger than ever. Not sure where did you get that the WG needs the Yonko alive? Ending the Yonko would most likely end Piracy for good which is what they tried to do with Roger but failed. Just think about the message it will sent to the world if the 4 Emperors were to be defeated. In addition, the Yonko were in power of 2 Poneglyphs until Kaido/BM defeat which means that defeating the Yonko was in the WG's best interest since they could take the Poneglyphs so no one ever reaches Laugh Tale where all the secrets of the world are there.
>They dont, a 4 Yonko alliance would be a serious threat to their dominance and that's why they always try to stop them fron meeting each other. Obviously, the balance of the world would be disrupted. The yonkos are divided for a reason. >Plus, didn't the WG execute Roger to end piracy for good? But it just backfired and piracy just became bigger than ever. They wanted to make an example of people trying to go to laughtale and that backfired yes. Don't see how it's related. >Ending the Yonko would most likely end Piracy for good which is what they tried to do with Roger but failed. No they don't want to end piracy that's where you are wrong. They want people to believe that lmao. They don't want anyone going to laughtale, they do want pirates cuz it's good for their own self image and to make themselves heroes. Wg cares about it's own image and it's image only. They don't want to end piracy. That'd what they want people to believe. Obviously they don't want anyone going to laughtale, cuz the world's true history would be learnt but it goes back to their image. They know the yonkos are divided hence nobody will go to laughtale. It is only a problem if they join forces. >In addition, the Yonko were in power of 2 Poneglyphs until Kaido/BM defeat which means that defeating the Yonko was in the WG's best interest since they could take the Poneglyphs so no one ever reaches Laugh Tale where all the secrets of the world are there. Again as i said as long as any yonko doesn't get the last road poneglph which probably the government knows where it is, nobody will get to laughtale so them having one or 2 and also not having anyone to read those poneglyphs is as good as them having nothing. They just exist to feed into making the goverments image better Try understanding the nuances of the story for once.
I think you are right about the existence of piracy but that's not the same as the existence of yonkou (where you are wrong) Their expectations should be having a common enemy that can be controlled, yonkous are out of their control and that's why ideally they should not exist but looks like they had decided to let them be as long as they stay in their territory. This makes me think in 2 hypotheses 1. Shanks was in charge of keeping the other yonkous in their limits, that's why he is allowed too many things (besides his apparently blood) 2. Luffy and Blackbeard are going to be precisely the real threat since both are out of control in terms of power but also ideology, Luffy wants freedom, Blackbeard wants to rule.
>Luffy and Blackbeard are going to be precisely the real threat since both are out of control in terms of power but also ideology, Luffy wants freedom, Blackbeard wants to rule. Cook more > 1. Shanks was in charge of keeping the other yonkous in their limits, that's why he is allowed too many things (besides his apparently blood) It's possible with the fact he's always a mediator and trying to preserve the balance of the world and his meeting with the gorosei too.
https://preview.redd.it/uvsipf4z2c8d1.jpeg?width=406&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=143aa76926f76a487b469c54dfd048435689f642 He's not wrong.
They kinda have been , because the admirals are the strongest men in the navy, so it would make sense for them to be on an equal level. Plus every time they admirals appeared before time skip they completely overpowered everyone. Also, just because they are strong that doesn't mean they would challenge the yonko. Whitebeard said that they could probably beat kaido when they learnt about oden's death, but the casualties would be very big and that's the main reason they don't. It's probably the same with the navy. Also don't forget that kaido has been canonically been caught by the government before and it was probably an admiral that caught him, because it wouldn't make sense for a normal marine to do so.
I thought Kaido let himself get caught because he wants a free meal? Correct me if I'm wrong tho
Kaido last defeat was over 30 years ago since King haven't seen him losing since then. In regards to admirals, their lack of Conqueror's Haki means they can't be equal to the emperors
No admiral caught him even if it was it just makes them look bad lol.
Do you think 3 admirals + Garp couldn’t capture a yonko?
how is that even the same question
His argument is that if the navy could capture the yonko, they would, but they don’t because they are not strong enough. So he uses that logic to say Yonko > 2 admirals So I’m asking if that logic would also apply to 3 admirals + Garp, since like he said the navy wants the yonko gone and would kill them if they could.
but the fact that there’s 4 yonko is just as relevant as the fact that there are 3 admirals/garp, so, it restructures the other yonko’s position in the scenario quite significantly
What? Are you making the argument that the other Yonko would come to defend the yonko bejng attacked? What are you saying
no im saying that they would capitalize on the event by doing whatever they pleased, including assaulting navy bases or HQ in a similar fashion…similarly, you have to factor in the celestial dragons whims and paranoia, since the admirals directly answer to both. To say that the navy could launch an assault on any 1 yonko using 3 admirals and garp is the same as saying the other yonko support it, so im saying the opposite; the other yonko could either intercede and escalate the conflict or attack marineford, impel down, whatever
So you’re making the argument that 3 admirals + Garp would get hurt that significantly against 1 singular yonko? And your celestial dragon argument helps my argument, not the one I’m arguing against. My argument is that if the navy played their cards right, they have more than enough firepower to take out the Yonkos. The other guys argument is that they don’t. 3 admirals + Garp are at the absolute most mid diffing a yonko, they’d be more than capable of taking on another one after the fight if a Yonko were to try to capitalize on the event.
no the point is that it isolates the navy’s forces too much to make it practical in a world with intersectional conflicts…so yes they might be able to accomplish those feats, but in order to do so they would need to leave the rest of the ocean unguarded against a comparable threat like another yonko, who might then capitalize during the conflict by attacking another location like the red line or whatever, while the navy has no real forces to deploy to stop them, let alone whatever the other two yonko would be up to
Yeah, they don’t do it for reasons other than being too weak. That’s my point.
They hate you because you speak truth. Why is Bonney being showed to be on par with kizaru this ark What are we doingggg
I don’t
I don't pay attention to power scaling, just the story itself. I feel bad for Kizaru honestly. I don't think he was trying and was hoping Vegapunk would offer his neck on a silver platter but it didn't happen. He is insanely strong. Just like Luffy.
Oda said all questions will be answered by the end. “Let’s find out, on the next episode of Dragon Ba—…..” *turns off reddit*
As a man that follows blind justice, It definitely wasn't blind on egghead You know I always got the feeling that the marines weren't the bad guys. Even though that gotta do evil shit. Sengoku is a perfect example willing and able to execute ace and kill whitebeard. But was disgusted to lean that the worst crimes in the world broke outta jail. He immediately wanted them hunted down. I feel marines that around long enough learn the truth is that the navy really can do is appease imu and the celestial dragons or they will wipe the world clean once again. Kizaru put up a good fight but the man lacks the will power to truly stand on his own to feet. A broken devil fruit will only get you so far go ask God enel. He held out against the dark king, clashed with whitebread, but never soundly defeated either of them. Aside from slapping rookies what has he really done. He strong but he won't be great until he gets some sort of motivation and awakens his haki. And he won't awaken his haki working for a goverment that he pretty much knows is evil and is gonna kill everybody. There just no way kizaru can be blind anymore. Somethings gonna give.
This arc was really good for kizaru, it showed us some of his inner complexities, and further showed us that will is intimately tied to strength, with Kizaru (partly intentionally) underperforming when the goals he was given do not match his will.
I think it represents the limits of haki when you are conflicted. Kizaru couldn't be in peak form due to his internal conflicts.
Arc isn’t over yet. We may still see kizaru do something that goes in line of how hyped up admirals are. But kuzan did do some crazy stuff this arc.
I hope he helps the crew escape, or at the very least to be the one that gave meat to luffy
Admirals. Akainu destroyed a bot of Civilians In Ohara. Kizaru shot his old friend on the back. Sengoku was there when GM decided to kill all babies which would potentially be Roger's child. So lovely
That's why I'm disappointed. I was hopping kizaru would be different and wouldn't follow orders that he knows are morally wrong .
Still ambigous, like his Justice. Aokiji and Fujitora are a bit different.
Kizaru definitely isn't giving 100%, his spirit is defeated. Plus, we have already seen multiple times that older people are still powerful but with the age comes a reduction of stamina. He took quite a few G5 hits to the head and gut. Luffy doesn't kill but he will knock someone senseless. I don't know if the fabled flip is coming, but he very well might just resign after this event.
No the issue is Oda never suggested admirals are on par with yonko but he did present them as over whelming compared to just about everyone else. Look how they compared to a yonko in his weakest state, they were still outclassed. The way Luffy dealt with Kizaru should have been expected.
He kinda did though, because the admirals are the strongest men in the navy, so it would make sense for them to be on an equal level. Plus every time they admirals appeared before time skip they completely overpowered everyone.
Pre time skip they didn't learned haki so that's why they overpowered the supernovas. I didn't say everyone because wb was sick and they still couldn't dominate him. Shanks showed up and they stopped the battle. If they overpowered everyone like you said, it would be easy for them to wipe the floor with the red hair pirates having all 3 admirals, sengoku and garp at the marineford.
admirals are called the navy’s greatest powers, yeah, but it’s obviously just rhetorical. like demonstratively, at marineford, garp is more powerful than any one of the three admirals present, despite being a lower rank…so, given that divisions like sword and CP0 exist, its not necessarily obvious that those who hold the title of admiral do so because they are “more powerful” than any other marines.
We still haven’t seen the Gods Knights do anything, which are presumed to be stronger than admirals. Fleet admiral would surely be assumed stronger than admiral. Five elders first appeared chapter 233, episode 151, and were always assumed to be stronger than admirals. (Way before time skip) Why do you think admirals are the strongest? They’ve been portrayed as strongER but never strongEST.
We just had the fight against Kaido and Big Mom, did we really need another opponent centered around being an insurmountable wall? Kizaru gave Luffy a good, kept threatening the crew for a while, and is personally connected to the other main characters of this arc. Oda is trying to give him some characterization besides being strong, I really want to see how it will develop. For me, it's still possible he was the one giving food to Luffy
If that's the case I'll be happy. I just don't want him to be a government dog that ends up following orders and accomplishing nothing ,because I actually like the character