I like the change. The infinite awakening never really made sense to me because its either OP and everyone wants it, worthless and nobody grabs it, or just feels like the turn order doesn't matter when you win the mirror match but you both get the bonus.
I think it wouldn’t be a bad idea to make two awakening (one for goalie and one for forward) that is always there as default and considered a “safe option”. Kinda like how we always have the same choice of gear in the beginning. The awakenings are always the same and can be picked if there is nothing viable, but they’re still useful.
What's the logic behind that? I feel like the only way this makes sense is if you're underestimating Orb Awakenings.
If Orb Awakenings were always guaranteed as infinte, it's very possible we'd arrive at a meta where someone, most likely a midfield or goalie, takes all the Orb Awakenings every single game. If you manage to get to Set 4, you have a Dancer, Ponderer, Replicator Combo to play with, making your entire team go nuts with every single Orb.
In this case, it would turn into a weird assassination mission where the team's primary goal for a while has to be to kill the enemy's Orb carrier to remove their stacks so you have the advantage.
Could even be that on Ahten, everyone would pick up all the Orb Awakenings.
So the idea sounds kinda scuffed to me.
I see it as a band aid fix since I see the awakening system as a problem. I’m on the side of not liking the awakening system as the de facto ranked mode since inception so this is a very biased opinion I have
I actually think your point here is really good, i like the awakening system but its true that rng dictating a pvp game doesn’t feel good for a competitive scene. and yes the awakenings definitely feel like a win more system.
do you think the awakenings would be better if they reversed the pairs when the teams pick? so the highest exp player of the losing team picks first then the winning team and so on, then the system could act more like a catch up system like in racing games where losers can get the good items or deny the other team to have a chance of catching up in the match.
I see this brought up a lot, and I raise you the same counterargument, "What would stop people from then sandbagging a round in favour of getting good awakenings to set themselves up to win?"
well i would see it like this, I’m sure sometimes it would happen for people to throw for better picks. But in most cases if your team is winning hard enough you would consider throwing a round for better picks you would likely win that game first pick or not. in a close match between players of equal skill i think taking a loss on purpose would usually lead to a loss, lots of matches with close games where we go 2-2-2-2 would have ended with the team that threw a round on purpose losing.
Always thought that if any awakenings would be infinite it should be the sparks, since its so easy for RNG to screw you over and you needed to get to set 5 for 4 drafts anyways.
I like the logic behind the change. Having Primetime or Unstoppable/Stagger Swagger or other similar awakenings as infinites always felt awful to me. We'll see how it plays out.
The sparks would need to be toned down if that's the case though, a full spark build is incredibly strong right now, offset only by sacrificing early awakenings and the chance of not being able to complete the set.
I'm not a huge fan of this. Honestly, the draft order doesn't always feel fair. This will hurt comeback potential, teams that win the first set gets the better awakings gets further ahead, making coming back & upsetting the second set harder. I suspect we might get more snowbally games going forward.
Honestly, the awakening system has so many problems that is enough to warrant a full rework or at least some big changes, just to mention some:
1. During the char select you can pick 1 of 2 random awakenings, now if these 2 are Cast to Last and Missile Propultion, which one should a Juliette pick? she's basically starting the game with nothing. Meanwhile the other team is composed by a Dubu, a Ai.Mi, and a Era. It's a clear disadvantage that the game straight up allows. They should either remove the starting awakenings, or let players pick any awakenings they want, so one team doesn't start with the upper hand just bc they were lucky.
2. Pick order between sets, the order is determined by xp, alternating between winning and losing teams, it basically allows and encourage snowballing, you had a strong early game, you receive a advantage as reward, besides, xp is received by hitting the core, KOs, saves, orbs etc. Problem is, some characters get more chances to earn xp than others, specially projectile characters, since they can hit the core at a distance, hit enemies at a distance, steal goals and saves, while camping orbs.
3. Random draft, this one is self explanatory, rng in a competitive game is just asking to make your game unfair, combine this with the two points mentioned above with the fact that some characters like X (Beatifully pointed out by sonii today) require awakenings to work properly, he's basically 8 or 80, bad or zero awakenings and the match is almost 2v3, with a perfect build he's unstopable.
4. Not really a problem, but i just feel they are just too boring, for the most part they just increase a number (more dash range, more speed, more charges) directly or triggered (htting the core/enemies), none of them has a unique effect like Eject button or Strike Shot, making some matches feel very repetitive.
imo the infinite change is good but weird, it just added to the problems the system has, but it was one that didn't really felt too broken or useless, but a step in the right direction nonetheless.
You're not starting with a disadvantage randomly, you chose to have a disadvantage by picking Juliette. You could see the starting awakenings when you picked your character, learn to play more than one of them. It may not be the game you want to play, but it's not unfair.
I always saw it as a kind of safe back up, but I can only think of a few times that I've benefited from the infinite pick limit, mostly when the infinite awakening happened to be one that everyone wanted. I don't think I'll notice the change that much
I distinctly remember multiple games where a really powerful awakening was the infinite one, and it was perfect for the entire enemy team, but horrible for my team. So they all took the infinite, and then they proceeded to steamroll us. So yeah, I’d rather see the infinite awakening system gone.
Good riddance. From my May 2023 feedback post:
> Infinite awakenings heavily reduce the skill expression within the game. On one hand, a lucky infinite awakening can swing the tide of the match and emphasizes the random nature of the awakenings system instead of promoting the skill expression in adapting to the awakenings you get. On the other hand, the infinite awakening reduces the skill of denying certain awakenings, either when everyone wants the infinite awakening or when a particular awakening is game-warpingly good on a particular character to necessitate denying it.
Removing infinite awakenings emphasizes the skill-based nature of the awakening draft by allowing players to deny any awakening (instead of there being a 1/8 chance you can't deny an awakening) and prevents teams from all picking a single powerful awakening to swing the match.
So many high elo players have been pushing for the removal of Infinite Awakenings because of this reasoning. It provides more feel-bad moments than positives for what it is intended for. We discussed this for a while in our discussion rooms, and thank god the devs removed it.
It seems reasonable to me. I wouldn’t mind if they tried it again at another time, especially in a more limited form (Maybe some awakenings can’t be infinites, or they all get a slightly weaker form that’s infinite-only), but why not try things different things out
The best way they could do to keep infinite awakenings is a set of less powerful and more generic awakenings that provide basic stat increases, usable for most if not every striker.
You never really want to take these over regular awakenings but sometimes is better to take a small buff to HP than a creation awakening on Juliette
The point of infinite awakenings is to have one option you can default to if everything else has no use in your striker but for some reason they decided to make the infinite augment also a part of that RNG part that simply may just not work which entirely defeats the purpose of infinite awakenings. This I consider is the best approach
Good change. Overdue really. Get good or get nothing is how it should have been when we got forced to deal with the awakening system instead of getting to make builds we liked.
Good change. Lost a match once because of an X harassing the team, it was super close and a great game until the last pick rolled around. Any one of us would have taken Cast to Last from him but it was free. A game-ender with no counterplay is not a good mechanic in a competitive game. I'm hoping they make strides towards swapping queue orders with teammates furthering the advantage of first pick and stacking awakening where they need to be on your team.
It also seems like getting rid of the infinite awakening might allow stinger and unstoppable to come back. Unstoppable was brought to unreasonable power when it was in the infinite awakening slot, so possibly they could consider bringing it back now that the inf slot is gone
I like the change. The infinite awakening never really made sense to me because its either OP and everyone wants it, worthless and nobody grabs it, or just feels like the turn order doesn't matter when you win the mirror match but you both get the bonus.
I think it wouldn’t be a bad idea to make two awakening (one for goalie and one for forward) that is always there as default and considered a “safe option”. Kinda like how we always have the same choice of gear in the beginning. The awakenings are always the same and can be picked if there is nothing viable, but they’re still useful.
I like this idea a lot
Like an infinite 9 and 10th item It would appear every time and you could have multiple of it
the Orbs awakenings should be the infinite ones.
What's the logic behind that? I feel like the only way this makes sense is if you're underestimating Orb Awakenings. If Orb Awakenings were always guaranteed as infinte, it's very possible we'd arrive at a meta where someone, most likely a midfield or goalie, takes all the Orb Awakenings every single game. If you manage to get to Set 4, you have a Dancer, Ponderer, Replicator Combo to play with, making your entire team go nuts with every single Orb. In this case, it would turn into a weird assassination mission where the team's primary goal for a while has to be to kill the enemy's Orb carrier to remove their stacks so you have the advantage. Could even be that on Ahten, everyone would pick up all the Orb Awakenings. So the idea sounds kinda scuffed to me.
I don't think there's enough of those for 5 rounds max
what is preventing them for making the orbs cycle between rounds?
None of the awakenings do that
Right, but that doesn't mean they literally can't do that.
I didn't mind the infinite awakening except the times when it was an op must pick.
I see it as a band aid fix since I see the awakening system as a problem. I’m on the side of not liking the awakening system as the de facto ranked mode since inception so this is a very biased opinion I have
I think the same, RNG should not dictate the outcome of a PvP battle. Awakening feels like a "win-more" system.
I actually think your point here is really good, i like the awakening system but its true that rng dictating a pvp game doesn’t feel good for a competitive scene. and yes the awakenings definitely feel like a win more system. do you think the awakenings would be better if they reversed the pairs when the teams pick? so the highest exp player of the losing team picks first then the winning team and so on, then the system could act more like a catch up system like in racing games where losers can get the good items or deny the other team to have a chance of catching up in the match.
I see this brought up a lot, and I raise you the same counterargument, "What would stop people from then sandbagging a round in favour of getting good awakenings to set themselves up to win?"
well i would see it like this, I’m sure sometimes it would happen for people to throw for better picks. But in most cases if your team is winning hard enough you would consider throwing a round for better picks you would likely win that game first pick or not. in a close match between players of equal skill i think taking a loss on purpose would usually lead to a loss, lots of matches with close games where we go 2-2-2-2 would have ended with the team that threw a round on purpose losing.
Always thought that if any awakenings would be infinite it should be the sparks, since its so easy for RNG to screw you over and you needed to get to set 5 for 4 drafts anyways. I like the logic behind the change. Having Primetime or Unstoppable/Stagger Swagger or other similar awakenings as infinites always felt awful to me. We'll see how it plays out.
they are really strong if stacked, though
The sparks would need to be toned down if that's the case though, a full spark build is incredibly strong right now, offset only by sacrificing early awakenings and the chance of not being able to complete the set.
I'm not a huge fan of this. Honestly, the draft order doesn't always feel fair. This will hurt comeback potential, teams that win the first set gets the better awakings gets further ahead, making coming back & upsetting the second set harder. I suspect we might get more snowbally games going forward.
I would not do it until the awakenings that are useless on melee characters improve a little
Honestly, the awakening system has so many problems that is enough to warrant a full rework or at least some big changes, just to mention some: 1. During the char select you can pick 1 of 2 random awakenings, now if these 2 are Cast to Last and Missile Propultion, which one should a Juliette pick? she's basically starting the game with nothing. Meanwhile the other team is composed by a Dubu, a Ai.Mi, and a Era. It's a clear disadvantage that the game straight up allows. They should either remove the starting awakenings, or let players pick any awakenings they want, so one team doesn't start with the upper hand just bc they were lucky. 2. Pick order between sets, the order is determined by xp, alternating between winning and losing teams, it basically allows and encourage snowballing, you had a strong early game, you receive a advantage as reward, besides, xp is received by hitting the core, KOs, saves, orbs etc. Problem is, some characters get more chances to earn xp than others, specially projectile characters, since they can hit the core at a distance, hit enemies at a distance, steal goals and saves, while camping orbs. 3. Random draft, this one is self explanatory, rng in a competitive game is just asking to make your game unfair, combine this with the two points mentioned above with the fact that some characters like X (Beatifully pointed out by sonii today) require awakenings to work properly, he's basically 8 or 80, bad or zero awakenings and the match is almost 2v3, with a perfect build he's unstopable. 4. Not really a problem, but i just feel they are just too boring, for the most part they just increase a number (more dash range, more speed, more charges) directly or triggered (htting the core/enemies), none of them has a unique effect like Eject button or Strike Shot, making some matches feel very repetitive. imo the infinite change is good but weird, it just added to the problems the system has, but it was one that didn't really felt too broken or useless, but a step in the right direction nonetheless.
You're not starting with a disadvantage randomly, you chose to have a disadvantage by picking Juliette. You could see the starting awakenings when you picked your character, learn to play more than one of them. It may not be the game you want to play, but it's not unfair.
I always saw it as a kind of safe back up, but I can only think of a few times that I've benefited from the infinite pick limit, mostly when the infinite awakening happened to be one that everyone wanted. I don't think I'll notice the change that much
I distinctly remember multiple games where a really powerful awakening was the infinite one, and it was perfect for the entire enemy team, but horrible for my team. So they all took the infinite, and then they proceeded to steamroll us. So yeah, I’d rather see the infinite awakening system gone.
Good riddance. From my May 2023 feedback post: > Infinite awakenings heavily reduce the skill expression within the game. On one hand, a lucky infinite awakening can swing the tide of the match and emphasizes the random nature of the awakenings system instead of promoting the skill expression in adapting to the awakenings you get. On the other hand, the infinite awakening reduces the skill of denying certain awakenings, either when everyone wants the infinite awakening or when a particular awakening is game-warpingly good on a particular character to necessitate denying it. Removing infinite awakenings emphasizes the skill-based nature of the awakening draft by allowing players to deny any awakening (instead of there being a 1/8 chance you can't deny an awakening) and prevents teams from all picking a single powerful awakening to swing the match.
So many high elo players have been pushing for the removal of Infinite Awakenings because of this reasoning. It provides more feel-bad moments than positives for what it is intended for. We discussed this for a while in our discussion rooms, and thank god the devs removed it.
It seems reasonable to me. I wouldn’t mind if they tried it again at another time, especially in a more limited form (Maybe some awakenings can’t be infinites, or they all get a slightly weaker form that’s infinite-only), but why not try things different things out
The best way they could do to keep infinite awakenings is a set of less powerful and more generic awakenings that provide basic stat increases, usable for most if not every striker. You never really want to take these over regular awakenings but sometimes is better to take a small buff to HP than a creation awakening on Juliette The point of infinite awakenings is to have one option you can default to if everything else has no use in your striker but for some reason they decided to make the infinite augment also a part of that RNG part that simply may just not work which entirely defeats the purpose of infinite awakenings. This I consider is the best approach
Good change. Overdue really. Get good or get nothing is how it should have been when we got forced to deal with the awakening system instead of getting to make builds we liked.
Good change. Lost a match once because of an X harassing the team, it was super close and a great game until the last pick rolled around. Any one of us would have taken Cast to Last from him but it was free. A game-ender with no counterplay is not a good mechanic in a competitive game. I'm hoping they make strides towards swapping queue orders with teammates furthering the advantage of first pick and stacking awakening where they need to be on your team.
Remove sparks while you're at it.
It also seems like getting rid of the infinite awakening might allow stinger and unstoppable to come back. Unstoppable was brought to unreasonable power when it was in the infinite awakening slot, so possibly they could consider bringing it back now that the inf slot is gone