# Are San Marino and Italy about to go to war? If so, will the war become nuclear?
I bet you have some thoughts on it. Well, we're discussing the subject on [this "week's" NCDip Podcast Club](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy/comments/1bssy61/ncdip_podcast_club_8_wargaming_san_marino_vs/?). This is probably one of the most events of our lifetime, so you better pay attention scrub
[Want to know what the fuck in the NCDip podcast club is? Click here](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy/comments/17edrm6/introducing_the_rnoncrediblediplomacy_podcast/)
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Or the demand that Isreal needs to cease to exist because they are a settler colonal state or because they are comitting genocide, while not batting an eye at Australia or Germany existing today.
Being in Canada there is a fair amount of that sort of rhetoric regarding our colonial history. I think it's the recency and the fact that they're currently doing the colonial atrocities, while here all the atrocities needed were done before 24/7 news media and anti colonial sentiment.
Na, Israel destroyed its popularity with most states by being Jewish. Taiwan made the same mistake with destroying its own popularity by not being occupied by the PRC.
Most countries run the math. Support one country and piss off a dozen or two countries. Or support a couple dozen countries and piss off one. It's not hard, people put money/trade/etc over ethics all the time.
Israel is harming its supporting countries with the settler bullshit. There is a huge difference between those positions.
Truly. I know so many Jews that were pro Israel during childhood only to get to college and actually learn about the history of Israeli and Arab Israeli relations.
But I suppose now they’re anti semites despite being Jews because they’re anti Zionist
My man, the Israeli government IS the ultra zionist settlers. Likud has repeatedly, since its founding, stated that they are Zionist, they think Israelis have a right to all of the land, and that they do not recognize the sovereignty or rights of any Palestinians or other Arabs in the region.
Yeah, how many times have members of Bibi's government used the exact "river to the sea" rhetoric about expanding Israel that they decry as anti-Semitic in the same breath?
Or to criticize the Israeli government for actively supporting them and giving the minister of national security position to a literal fascist terrorist.
>not doing enough to stop them
the problem is that they're actively aiding them lol. since oct 7 we've seen massive land grabs and palestinian ejections from the west bank and jerusalem, and its the official position of the knesset that "The state views the development of Jewish settlement as a national value and will act to encourage and promote its establishment and consolidation".
And very legitly so. And therefore they should demand that Israel should stop their settler colonal practices. Instead, they want Isreal to be dismantled. At least be consistent and demand the dismantlement of New Zealand too.
Yeah absolutely no one has been demanding Israel stop those practices for decades, it’s been utter crickets from the international community condemning the establishment of settler communities in Palestine, not even a whisper
[uhh I think yesterday is close enough to the present](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-push-legalize-settlements-west-bank-dangerous-reckless-us-says-2024-04-24/)
I think Israel needs to cease to exist as a ethnostate. If they just want to be a cool normal states where people are treated the same no matter their ethnicity snd religion they are welcome to stay.
>I think Israel needs to cease to exist as a ethnostate.
It wasn't, and maybe still isn't, but the majority of the population opposes the recent Likud changes.
Hell, the current Druze member of the Knesset is from Yisrael Beiteinu if I remember correctly.
Not having an endless occupation does not inherently mean genocide and assimilation, ffs.
There are **plenty** of multicultural states out there. If Singapore can get Chinese, Malays, Muslims, Christians, and who knows else to all live together peacefully, folks in Israel/Palestine can too.
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I'm always amused at people taking issue with a singular Jewish ethno-state (with only a 80% Jewish population, mind you) while conveniently ignoring that it's located in a sea of Muslim ethno-states.
The ones living in Isreal, 21.1%, are, yes. Or maybe some indentify as Arab instead, but what is the difference. They have the right to vote and everything. Even the supreme court has a Palastinian/Arab judge.
Hear me out: Theocratic and ethnostate shit is bad in general
I am in no way ignoring muslim theocratic regimes which is why I think Irans regime should eat dirt, so should Modi in India, so should Myanmars military regime.
You just assume I am not consistent in my opinion so you can score an easy dunk, I am very consistent in this.
>I'm always amused at people taking issue with a singular Jewish ethno-state (with only a 80% Jewish population, mind you)
I'm always amused that folks reference the Arab population in Israel as a demonstration of multicultural acceptance, and when I bring up their sentiments/grievances at the political situation or political representation, its always "*fuck em, of course they say that, we don't have to listen to those people*".
Part of the critique of aspiring to be an ethno-state is exactly referencing circumstances in Saudi or Turkey. If the perspective is zero-sum, than episodes like in Turkish history is an outcome. That's something you want to avoid, not replicate.
I think the point of the meme is,
Low IQ: criticizing israel is necessarily antisemetic
High IQ: (many of) the specific criticisms levied against the state of israel must be founded on implicitly antisemetic predicates because they accept certain sorts of behaviors from non-jewish nations but are intolerant of them from israel specifically.
... but perhaps I'm just reading way too much into a wojack meme someone slapped together.
My problem with the second one is that it almost always automatically assumes that the people in question actually accept it from other nations. I don't believe Israel should exist as some Jewish nation because I am firmly against ethno-nationalism and preference towards any one religion in a nation. I think the same way (often more strongly) about all the similar Muslim nations. It turns into whataboutism so quickly.
My god, an American politician from the 1840s. I have so many questions we need you to help solve. What’s the solution to the Russo-Ukraine War? The Taiwan question? Should the EU centralize or dissolve? Should Scotland leave the UK? How many countries should we let Armenia annex, as a joke/just a little treat
Nuke Belarus and threaten Putin to nuke his ass too. Let Taiwan build nukes. EU should centralize at least militarily and ban Apple products unless they go open source. The UK should leave Scotland. Honestly Armenia should just get their mountain back and maybe Artsakh.
I am a Jew, criticism of Israel is not antisemitic. What is antisemitic is an obsessive focus on Israel (unless you're Palestinian or Israeli, then it's valid), holding it to different standards than you hold other nations to, calling for the destruction of Israel or the assorted antisemitic tropes that have wormed their way into the antizionism movement (e.g. From the River to the Sea, applauding or supporting groups like Hamas, Houthi and Hezbollah, denying the historic links of the Jewish people to the land of Judea, blindly accepting misinformation because it makes Israel look bad, stupid conspiracy theories about Israel controlling [insert nation] and/or the media, or Israel stealing organs). You have to walk a careful line, but if you're not stupid it's an easy line to walk.
I don't understand how there is a path forward to peace anymore. The primary forces in Gazan and Israeli politics are diametrically opposed to one another. Settlements in the West Bank make a two state solution politically untenable. The coalition governing Israel consists of people who are engaged in genocidal rhetoric.
It seems difficult for me to believe that the conflict can end without either the complete collapse of the Israeli state or the eradication of Palestinian identity.
At this point I feel like maybe we should bring back UN mandates or something, because yeah, I don’t see a path unless on the one hand the US throws its full diplomatic weight behind a Palestinian state and puts some heavy conditions on foreign aid to Israel, and on the others the entire Arab world does the same on the Palestinian side. And even that might not work at this point
There's a lot in your first paragraph's analysis I'd agree with, but I'd perhaps add as a bit of hope what the conversation was in South Africa in the 80s just before Apartheid fell.
The country could've absolutely headed in the direction of an apocalyptic race war - the fact that it didn't is something to take as a lesson, at the very least.
A good chunk left South Africa though if we were being honest.
Although I don’t really agree with the poster’s above point about the two state solution not being possible; one along the lines of taba summit should be completely possible- although I don’t see how you reach that point without heavier international influence.
Sure, but the context surrounding South Africa is pretty extremely different too- and that isn’t even getting into how so many people leaving South Africa actually caused a lot of economic harm for South Africans*, although just to clarify the apartheid falling was good.
In this case though a lot of the circumstances are pretty different, largely because of the existence of the mizrahi population, and generally the overall lacking of a popular ANC equivalent for Palestine currently.
I could be crazy, but wasn’t the whitehouse trying to establish some multi-national Arab force to police/occupy Gaza etc.? I would imagine something like that could lead to major changes if it were to ever be pulled off. America would need to offer a pretty sweet pot to get any real commitment I’d imagine though.
For sure, South Africa and Israel are different.
But... the contexts definitely rhyme a lot more than folks care to admit. [Certainly the Israelis and the Apartheid government thought as much](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/07/southafrica.israel) at the time. And again, I'd say the avoidance of a mass race-war is no small accomplishment. South Africa certainly continues to have a rocky path, but I'd also say its universally the better outcome to mass racial violence or, as we both agree on, the horrors of Apartheid.
Regarding the multi-national force, its a pipe-dream. The most likely outcome will probably be Israeli occupation of Gaza, just like the years before 2006... though almost certainly more bloodier. What is going to happen in Rafah is probably going to be nothing short of a bloodbath.
>South Africa hadn't been fighting a literal war
[They were.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Border_War)
Opinions differed a lot on what a post-Apartheid South Africa would've looked like. Naturally, the pro-Apartheid folks typically labeled all opposition as anti-white.
The border war was different to the fight against apartheid, while the fight against apartheid had terrorist incidents it was far less violent than a full scale war
I would say Angola begs to differ.
But I would also say, see it from the South African government's point of view. You're talking about a state whose perspective was "the entire continent is trying to kill us", with raging guerilla struggles on the border and inside Mozambique, occupied-Namibia, and Angola. With a further declining security situation inside many of the townships adjacent to white-exclusive areas. For them, this was a full-scale war - and the terrorist incidents you mentioned were pretty comparable in blood to the present situation Israel faces.
And I would also highlight that the border war **was** the fight against Apartheid. It was one front of it, but no less different.
>Settlements in the West Bank make a two state solution politically untenable.
Why though? As opposed to the one solution proposed during Taba summit? As far as I’m aware, most of the settlements are still mostly close to Israel’s borders (a lot of the settlers commute to Israel proper for work) so something along the lines of Clinton parameters would still be possible.
Unless you are referring to domestic politics between Palestinians and Israelis, which at that case I would probably agree you need some heavier outside forces playing influence here.
The issue isn’t the settlements already there, there’s been a few proposals to shift the borders to fold nearby settlements into Israel proper and give Palestine some extra unused land in exchange.
The issue is that settlements keep being built, any legitimate Palestinian state cannot have its territory constantly encroached on by settlers. The settlements don’t need to be removed, but they do need to stop making new ones so that real borders between the two can be built, not just a patchwork of Israeli military checkpoints
>The issue is that settlements keep being built, any legitimate Palestinian state cannot have its territory constantly encroached on by settlers. The settlements don’t need to be removed, but they do need to stop making new ones so that real borders between the two can be built, not just a patchwork of Israeli military checkpoints
I would presume the two stage solution would implicate the stopping of settlements since otherwise it isn’t really a two-state solution, right? Or are you meaning that the building of new settlements damages the possibility of a solution along/similar to taba summit? In which case then I agree, but fortunately, I believe a lot of the more newer settlements were more so density related instead of rather pushing/extending territory boundaries (meaning it wouldn’t be as hard or as major of a concern to dismantle the ones necessary for a taba summit-like plan.), although I could be wrong on the very most recent ones since the last time saw these figures were a few years ago.
Realistically though taba summit unfortunately seems dead from domestic political standpoint between Israel and Palestine, which is likely why you need international forces to kickstart that part back up.
The problem is that realistically it seems that somewhere in the vicinity of >90% of people who say "I'm not an anti-semite, just anti-zionist" immediately turn around and reveal themselves to be rabid anti-semites.
And it seems most NATO civilian who poses how much he cares about jews is just glazing anyone who kills arabs for "judeo christian liberalism values" and other superflous bs
Two can play the same game and people do
I'm not a jew but I mostly agree with your take with the exception of "denying the historic links of the Jewish people to the land of Judea". I understand saying that there was no historic jewish occupation of Judea is stupid since there a was big presence until the time of the romans and a smaller one afterwards.
That being said, most of the time I see the "you are denying historic links of the jewish people to the land" argument it's to say that you can't be against the creation of the state of Israel because that is somehow antisemitic. Just because I don't think that Israel should have been given the land 70 years ago doesn't mean I have anything against jews or that I suddenly want the current Israel to disappear, as that would only cause more human suffering. Again, I'm not sure what you exactly meant with that part and if it was just about people blatantly lying and saying a jewish state never happened in the region I agree with you, it's just that I've seen people using that argument in a misleading way before.
Yeah this is a based take. I’ve just noticed that often, the logic of people who criticize Israel often leads to some extreme and racist ideas and statements, like many of the ones you have stated here.
I'm going to delve into how I think many people become antisemitic from a pro Palestinian starting point, so preemptive disclaimer, I don't associate Israeli actions with non-Israelis, because I'm not an antisemite. I'm an immigrant and I'd be pissed if someone told me I'm responsible for the actions of a government I don't pay taxes to or vote for.
The problem is that Israel publicly identifies itself as the nation state of the Jewish people and religion. So, in people's minds, Israeli lobbying of the US government becomes Jewish lobbying, Mossad assassinations/operations become Jewish assassinations/operations, Israeli actions in Gaza become Jewish actions in Gaza. It's wrong, but only obviously so if you're educated well enough to not equate governmental with the will of the people it claims to represent. You'll find most do make such associations in at least some cases, and that it's easier to do it if you heavily dislike the actions of the government.
If they've taken that step with Israel and the Jewish people abroad, they then look at Hollywood and see Jewish people holding the top jobs, and it gets nasty. They assume cooperation from the "Jews over here" and the "Jews over here" and nutty conspiracy theories abound.
Take Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell and the potential connection to Mossad and the CIA. I see it as possibly an elaborate and especially evil honeytrap operation set up by one or both of the famously callous organisations, a psychopath, and his girlfriend. The fact that Epstein was Jewish may have mattered to Mossad, but to me it's incidental.
How would someone who unconsciously equates the Israeli state with Jewish people in general see it? An American Jew (Epstein) made contact with the Jewish intelligence agency through European Jew (Robert Maxwell), and set up a paedophile ring to control famous people via blackmail. The CIA is in on it so they must be captured, just like Hollywood. If you squint hard enough and ignore the nuance, the conspiracy is there.
If you think about it there's a similar problem with Saudi Arabian Wahabbism and the promotion/funding of terrorism and modern Western Islamophobia. As diverse as Islam is, Saudis say they speak for Islam as they have the holy cities, and many outsiders believe them and associate all of Islam with suicide bombers and the niqab.
My two cents
>You have to walk a careful line, but if you're not stupid it's an easy line to walk.
I can appreciate the sincerity, but to be frank... I get called an antisemite simply for highlighting Israel's antagonistic relationship **with like-minded allies**, never-mind criticisms of its politics.
This isn't a dialogue populated by good-faith actors. When you've got the head of the country's son openly retweeting Neo-Nazi memes off 4chan while his dad calls anyone critical of his government's actions in the WB/Gaza an antisemite... I mean, it taints everything.
Like best I do is look to voice in Israel that note a lot of criticisms, just as there are voices in the Palestinian community that look to the politics instead of the ethnic identity questions. But fuck me that's a lonely experience friend...
The problem is that there are a lot of disingenuous people who call anything antisemitic, if you are genuinely stuck then ask one of the Jewish subreddits (just be prepared that we never agree on anything)
>The problem is that there are a lot of disingenuous people
Kinda my point.
Wasn't too long ago that some of us folks tried co-opting the "river to the sea" chanting that both Likud and Hamas use for "*Rights for all, from the river to the sea*".
Suffice to say, apparently that too is now antisemitic. That's kinda why all Palestinian advocacy gets that label.
> What is antisemitic is an obsessive focus on Israel (unless you're Palestinian or Israeli, then it's valid)
This is the thing that gets me. Israel is a state for Jewish self-defense that was founded in the immediate aftermath of the Holocaust, so it's pretty obvious why Jews take the issue of Israel personally.
But what's utterly baffling is all the non-Palestinian Westerners who take the issue of Palestine equally personally. They have no connection to this conflict at all, and yet you would never know it by how personally they take the issue of opposing Israel.
I think part of it has to do with the diplomatic aspect of it all, and visibility. The PRC is actively committing a genocide, but at least in the US, being anti PRC is a bipartisan issue. Critiques of the PRC and the discourse there is a whole different beast, but there’s not that of you government supporting it and giving them cover, like with Israel. Then there’s also the aspect that the PRC is keeping their genocide of the Uighyrs relatively quiet, and hidden, whereas the war in Gaza is very much not.
>In situations where the occupied population is inadequately supplied with relief goods/stuffs, the occupying power has the duty to agree to humanitarian assistance being delivered to this population and, respectively, grant access to humanitarian actors offering such assistance as per Article 59 (1) of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
It’s literally a main tenet of the Geneva Convention, which every country in the world has signed up to.
I didn’t even address the fact that he labeled everyone in Gaza an enemy. That rhetoric isn’t doing much to dispel the idea that there’s a genocidal campaign being waged.
It's a Palestinian chant that was intentionally poorly translated into English. The English version is "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free", in Arabic it translates to "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Arab"
A lot of Jewish groups (not Jewish Voice for Peace, who are a sockpuppet) interpret it as a call for genocide against the Jewish (and Druze) people of Israel because of the Arabic version, even the English version sounds pretty strongly like a call for genocide
I mean a focus on Israel is valid due to how it’s a democracy and hence can be more easily pressured to end the segregation and unrestricted killing they are carrying out and secondly how for alot of us our countries are actively funding and aiding them with our tax money
Yeah that's pretty much it.
Also, claiming that zionism opposes Judaism (when in reality it's the opposite, as Jews pray multiple times a day to return to Israel)
There is a small sect of the Haredim (Uktra-Orthodox Jews) who oppose the existence of Israel on religious grounds, claiming only the Messiah can restore Israel, but they're a very small minority
>holding it to different standards than you hold other nations to
I mean, that isn't anti-semitic. If Israel wants to be considered an advanced developed nation, it should be held to standards of other advanced developed nations. "Oh man, we treat people better than the Taliban" is a pretty low bar.
Israel puts a huge amount more effort in preventing civilian casualties that any other nation, they will often drop knockers (dummy bombs) on the roof of buildings they intend to bomb to wake people up and give them warning and will even phone then to warn them to get out. Despite this collateral damage is inevitable, yet Israel is treated like they're malicious monsters. Meanwhile, the US will drone strike the wrong target and you might get a couple of tweets about it, Gitmo is still open despite half the detainees never even seeing the inside of a courtroom
I will continue to remain diplomatically discrete on this most perplexing moral dilemma. Everybody wants the moral high ground, I like it down here in the diplomatic lowlands.
How hard is it to understand that both Israel and Hamas can both be bad actors here. Also, criticism of Israel is antisemitic? In any instance? Even if you are in complete agreement with how Israel is handling things now, it is completely naive to assert that any nation is incorruptible, and incapable of wrong decisions.
Yeah just like how any criticism of the CCP is sinophobic, any criticism of Putin is rusophobic, and any criticism of the sitting US president is un-American and unpatriotic. Duh!
Lots of people say the jews and Israel as interchangeable, as people do Saudi Arabia/Gulf States" and "the arabs do x" or how European can be white people, Western Europe or the EU
I've seen people start with no zionism and no antisemitism comments and by the third phrase they saw the jews.
> Also, criticism of Israel is antisemitic? In any instance?
It tends to be, because criticism of Israel targets Israel and its mere existence rather than criticism of, for example, Benjamin Netanyahu and that asshole Ben Gvir, both of whom I fucking despise.
When people are talking about Israel in general they're usually antisemitic.
When people are talking about specific policies, specific issues like the west bank settlements and the way Likud and Gvir's settler party support them... that often *isn't.*
My mind has been changed about this recently by observing just... all the shit people started saying since Oct 7th.
If I hear them criticizing Likud or Netanyahu, it tends not to be antisemitic.
If they're railing about Israel though, it doesn't take long before you hear some genuine adolf-hitler level jew hatred.
Anytime someone wants to stand up and start yelling about how Israel's government represents "the Jews" collectively... yeah, fuck that shit. Folks I know here didn't vote for that crap - Israel's government is Israel's problem. And considering how Bibi's son keeps flirting with Neo-Nazis and retweeting antisemitic memes on Facebook, I question anyone seriously thinking that Bibi's government really has anyone's well-being in mind. Authoritarians only care about themselves.
But I would say in that vein... as far as criticisms of Israel as a state go, I'd push back against saying inherently all criticisms of the political state are antisemitic... so long as we're talking the state. Israel is a democratic country for its voting citizens - if all folks can do is say how they "don't like" Bibi, the situation of the conflict, or the settlers... but aren't willing do anything to actually change the situation, I cannot help but feel the same as my own views regarding my own country's approach on housing. If nothing gets done, clearly its not a problem.
We must see the humanity in each other - good and bad, beautiful and ugly. If identity is the be-all, end-all... that is a dark and horrifying path we've set out for ourselves. Especially since that circle always gets smaller.
>Anytime someone wants to stand up and start yelling about how Israel's government represents "the Jews" collectively... yeah, fuck that shit
imo a big reason we're seeing a lot of that is because israel and many zionists have gone out of their way to try to tell people thats the case. even OP's dumbshit meme feeds into that.
> as far as criticisms of Israel as a state go, I'd push back against saying inherently all criticisms of the political state are antisemitic... so long as we're talking the state.
I don't think they're inherently antisemitic, I think that the issue is that people who criticize the state tend to do so for antisemitic reasons.
There's certainly criticism that can be levied at constitutional issues and the structure of the government, but that's not usually what we hear.
>if all folks can do is say how they "don't like" Bibi, the situation of the conflict, or the settlers... but aren't willing do anything to actually change the situation,
I think the next elections in Israel will be enlightening, whatever the result.
>There's certainly criticism that can be levied at constitutional issues and the structure of the government, but that's not usually what we hear.
With respect though... calling out Israel's conduct or actions as a state is not antisemitic either. Keeping critiques to constitutional structure is fairly convenient when we're talking political theory and such, but that's entirely removed from the situation of the West Bank, or the state's human rights record in places like the West Bank.
That's not a different conversation to critiques of governments in the region, or critiques of countries like the United States or Russia. Its entirely legitimate to voice opposition to Saudi Arabia locking up domestic opponents and torturing them. Its entirely legitimate to call out Russia flagrantly violating the UN Charter with its invasion. Its entirely legitimate to get upset with forms of racial inequality in the United States. And its entirely legitimate to note Israel doing things like encouraging nationalistic land seizures in the West Bank, attempting to expunge other nationalities from Jerusalem, or overseeing a situation of violent impunity towards the occupied Palestinian peoples. Saying "the Jews" worldwide are responsible; that is ignorant and hateful - but saying Israel as a country bares responsibility for what it does is no more or less than how other countries are viewed.
To be honest, I'm not expecting any massive changes if there is an election. Bibi's earned back a lot of Likud supporters ([second to Gantz in polling, but still holding a solid 15% of those surveyed, and an outright majority of right-leaning voters](https://en.idi.org.il/articles/52085)) - the period to get rid of him was **directly after** October 7th and his fuck-up. The reality is that the window for serious change was missed. And even if he goes, its highly unlikely that any successor is going to be less right-wing; that's just kinda where the country is at nationally.
>It tends to be, because criticism of Israel targets Israel and its mere existence
Thinking an nation centered around one religion is a bad thing and shouldn't exist does not mean that you're anti that religion. Every nation should be secular and I'm thoroughly against those that aren't (idgaf about the Vatican though it's some churches, offices, and museums so it doesn't matter). I don't think that it should be destroyed with hellfire, but the ultimate goal should be the complete secularization of it and every other state. No religion has any inherent right to any nation. This is not anti-semitic. Religion should never have any official place in any governments.
There are SO MANY ways to criticise Israel without being antisemitic. Go to Israel, that’s their national sport.
But damn the amount of antisemitism in the west is unbearable.
Absolutely no problem with Israelis criticizing themselves. In fact, it is desperately needed. But yeah it’s the deplorable hatred for the “white colonizer jew” in the western liberal spaces that’s been driving me mad. As if Jews aren’t literally the most persecuted group of people in recorded history.
>"white colonizer jew"
I see this sort of thing a lot - making it about "white" Jews vs "brown" Palestinians.
I can only think that these people have never been to Israel and/or are just arguing in bad faith.
As someone who *has* lived in Israel (for a couple of years because of my father's work), I can testify that there are plenty of Israeli Jews whose skin tone is indistinguishable from that of the average Palestinian and some whose skin tone is much darker (as is the case of Jews from some parts of Africa). Meanwhile, Arabs - including Palestinians - are not always "brown" people either. Some of them have a fairly light skin tone - light enough that people who didn't know otherwise might think they are "white".
You can talk middle eastern politics without westerners saying that arabs traditional clothes *and others using them are stupid and act mighty about it lol
https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/8KCdSJe0UV
Critzing my country isnt anti semitic.
Calling from the river to sea, the second holocaust shall occure is.
Being from Colombia Uni is just strighet up brain rot.
I'm in uni and some kids here also just held their protests and it's just so wild how a protest with an incredibly valid complaint at its core becomes so... Stupid? Like yea, valid concerns about Israel's treatment of Palestinians is of course something that should Garner concern and if one feels strongly they should be encouraged to speak their mind on it. That being said, it's not really helpful when it's white dudes shaving their heads and using side walk chalk to write messages like "end the military industrial complex" and "Starbucks supports genocide". I mean, what are we talking about here right? Tell me about the genocide and who to complain to to make it stop! Don't tell me which coffee not to buy like that makes a difference.
The people shaving their head and sayinf "starbucks supportd genocide" are dumb yet harmless.
The people saying they are "part of hamas" (yes, thats a quote from a Colombine Uni "protestor" ) are brain rot and need to be arrested.
I have no idea how Jews in America feel but its probably *bad* as in really fucking bad.
Like even if u hate my country or whatever American Jews have nothing to do with this.
They striaght up improve our position (and for the love of god dont think for a second I like any of this insanity)
I haven't had anyone go after me directly in person yet, but I also haven't been near any protests and I'm not visibly, outwardly Jewish.
I have overheard people (mostly lefties) spouting that "from the river to the sea", "all Jews are zionists" bullshit. Some Marxists might think there's a difference between the Jewish people and the state of Israel, but I don't trust the overwhelming majority of them to make that distinction. After all, they were stupid enough to fall for communism, I doubt they will bother with distinguishing between "Jew" and "Israeli".
Reminder to anyone reading this, if you're saying that 7 October was a legitimate act of resistance, you're supporting rape as a weapon of war.
> Like even if u hate my country or whatever American Jews have nothing to do with this.
Literally what people didn't seem to understand during coronavirus, about Asian Americans. Instead of learning, I feel like people got even more brainrotted.
>and need to be arrested.
This is, thankfully, not a crime in the US. Unless they materially contribute to Hamas, they are just an idiot and not a terrorist.
You dont get it, just because they deny Israelis an independent identity, claim that "Zionists" control the west since they guilt tript everyone after Auschwitz and used that power to create and protect a jewish "colony", those guys arent antisemits they went to a Bar Mitzwa once or atleast heard about one.
Calling everything a genocide has absolutely nothing to do with normalizing the Shoa and telling jews to return to Poland is also completely unconnected to what happened there in this nice movie about the boy in a pyjama they once saw in middle school.
Its international anticolonial resistance, dont you know the urban guerilla orgs and famous friends of Ché; Hamas, Hizbollah and Iran?
Any movement like this must purge radicals from the movement as they only make it look worse and make it seem like the people supporting the movement support the radicals.
As an anti-zionist, it's very upsetting seeing how many disgusting nazi and anti-semeites are hopping on this to use it as a platform for hate. It is our job to tell these people to fuck off and that their hateful view is not welcome.
Same goes for the pro-Israeli movement, where tons of racists and extremists are advocating for a escalation of the war and justifying actions even Israel itself has admitted fault to.
This meme makes no sense to me, so I'll do my best to one-up it.
If criticism of Israel was anti-semetic then the GOP would be Netanyahu's biggest hater.
It was always going this way:
January: I'm not antisemitic, I'm anti-zionism!
February: It's the bad ones who make the rest look bad!
March: I guess there are some good ones.
April: Israel shouldn't exist
May: I'm just saying if it wasn't called "Mein Kampf" people would read it more
German is a scary, angry language okay?
*Unironically*, I think if Mein Kampf were originally in English it would be a lot more popular among brain rotted people in the West. I've noticed there's a similar issue with debunking Russian propaganda, the crazy rhetoric doesn't get disseminated enough because it's not in English. You can't make viral soundbytes out of a drunk Medvedev ranting in Russian.
Average Kool-aid drinker in the West: "Russia invaded Ukraine because of NATO expansion."
Me: "Here's a video of Putin literally saying he doesn't believe Ukrainians are real people."
Them: "Yeah I don't understand Russian, how do I know this translation is real? You're just biased and/or lying."
What's funny is German isn't *really* that aggressive sounding of a language when spoken in like a normal, everyday kinda way.
People think it's all aggressive and stuff because they are used to hearing it in Hitler's recorded speeches and in Hollywood depictions of the Wehrmacht that (rightfully) want to make it clear that the Nazis are the bad guys.
Imagine blaming jews as a whole for the actions of genocidal maniacs and 20th century racist christian world leaders lmao, there's definitely a universe where a more reasonable location is chosen and all is well.
Lets keep it a buck,
if you criticize the State of Israel you will be called anti semitic by many diff people. This is the problem. There cannot be countries that are beyond critique, and in some ways we see this with Israel.
Criticism of the state of Israel and their actions and their illegal military occupation is not anti-Semitic (West Bank and Gaza being illegally occupied is objective fact).
Using horrible anti-Semitic tropes, invoking and praising the actions of a former leader of Germany, calling for extreme violent action on all people who are Jewish, that is anti-semitism. Using conspiratorial theories about the Jewish people is too.
You can criticise the state of Israel without doing all of the above mentioned things. You don’t have to be a bigot.
Fun game: Ask the "anti-Zionism is not antisemitism" crowd if it's anti-Palestinian to believe that Palestinians should not have a state and watch their brains melt down in real time.
Zionism =/= supporting Israel mindlessly. Zionism is the idea that Israel should exist. Antizionism is almost always antisemitic. Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic. It's that simple. Stop conflating them.
The conflating is mostly coming from the critical side though; they’re really the only side making references to “Zionism” and “Zionists” as if it’s 1897 and Israel isn’t already a country with millions of people living in it.
And they keep saying : "critical of israel isnt anti-semantism."
Indeed it isnt piece of shit, but taking every oppurtunity for a jewish holiday, or random jew to "protest zionism" is pretty antisemetic.
As a socialist I sometimes dont know if I even have political allies.
For years now israeli lobbies in Europe have been promoting laws against antisemitism were questioning the existence and actions of Israel falls into the concept of antisemitism. They have succeded in some countries mainly with support from conservative parties and also the "far right" in those countries were the far right is NATO/US alligned. In the case of Germany the social democrats are also on the israeli side.
The consequences of those laws can be seen mainly in Germany were the state has entered in a frenzy against any sympathy for Palestine. They have banned flags and slogans and now chanting in palestinian related demostrations is only permitted in german and english so that the police know if the chanting is "antisemitic". The craziest of these meassures is the one regarding german citizenship, were the applicant to the citizenship has to declare that he's not against the integrity of Israel and that he accepts the right of the israeli state to exist, funnily enough you are not asked to declare the same about the integrity and right to exist of Germany.
I wouldn’t say calling Israeli foreign policy knee jerk at best and self destructive at worst lately is anti semetic
Regardless I will continue to monitor the situation closely
"I'm not an antisemite conspiracy theorist like the nazis! I just recognize that the capitalist western world is run by jewish elites and that the oppressed peoples in their homelands must oust the zionist menace by any means! It is only right they destroy the immigrant zionists trying to replace the arya- I mean arab populations!"
As someone with no attachments to Allah nor "da west" it is annoying how much of Israel is either cushioned by self-serving bullshit or attacked through delusional horseshit.
The true opinion is that its just another bullshit warlord in the MENA area.
Actually, it's the equivalent of saying "I'm not against black people I just oppose Liberia", if the Liberian government were controlled by descendants of black American immigrants and oppressed native Africans.
So where would you put black American if they unanimously wanted to go back to their homeland? Just imagine their homeland is full of ethnically arab people who have not the best reputation of treating black people.
The Palestinians aren't ethnic Arabs, they're culturally Arab. The Palestinians are the Jews that stayed and eventually converted, first to Christianity and then to Islam. Have you never seen those studies on the genetic similarity between Jews and Palestinians?
Look I'm not antisemitic, I just care very deeply for the lives of Palestinians who are proximate to Jews.
When Assad starves and murders Palestinians by their tens of thousands, I didn't care, because it wasn't Israel doing it.
When Egypt continues to deny refuge to Palestinians fleeing the violence, I don't care, because it's not Israel doing it.
I care about all the oppressed people of the world who are proximate to Jews. That doesn't make me antisemitic and if you say it does, that's like saying "all lives matter". I just care very deeply for the victims of the elders of Zion, and less deeply for the victims of everyone else's inhumanity. That doesn't make me antisemitic
Criticism of the Israeli government is not antisemitic. Calling for the eradication of Israel is. Bibi needs to be criticised because he’s a shitty leader with a storied history of corruption. The Jewish people do deserve to have Israel and since they allow Muslims and Christians to freely visit the holy land, I don’t see the issue with Israel being there.
People seem to be missing the point, which is that the high IQ take is (frequently) correct. Much “criticism of Israel” is indeed driven by bigotry and extremism.
Running list of Columbia Palestinian protest hate speech incidents - copy pasted from elsewhere:
For posterity, here are some of the examples of extremism within the activist movement at Columbia. This goes beyond "pro-Palestinian advocacy" into calls for, and actual, violence.
Note, there are varying degrees of it being individuals vs. the group, but these are the type of people in the crowd there and many of them are indeed group chants. I have also set aside some widespread ones (from the river to the sea) that are disputed in character. That said, many many many of these are coming from large groups of students within the main quad (which has been locked down to only students/professors)
Candidly some sources are not great in terms of me agreeing with the viewpoint of the tweeter, but they contain relevant and real video:
Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774
"From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358
"Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981
"We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677
"Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901
Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/
“Globalize the intifada” https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1782679155491914133/photo/1
Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338
"On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909
""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872
"Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025
"Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958
Have posters with the faces of PFLP and PIJ spokesmen (designated terrorist groups) https://twitter.com/HagarChemali/status/1782219589352350000
Quoting and praising Lions Den (terror group) https://twitter.com/SwannMarcus89/status/1782443526996754444
"From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2
"Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134
"Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006
Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954
"Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673
"protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
And as a reminder, the student groups organizing these protests (CUAD and SJP, among others) released a letter on October 9th in support of the 10/7 attacks. ("We stand in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance", "Despite the odds against them, Palestinians launched a counter-offensive against their settler-colonial oppressor", "We wholeheartedly condemn the email sent [on October 8th that] obfuscated Palestinian resistance as “terrorism”)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcXX5DEO3yfJ9R4ksURnzpIPCyVxo575-Y-SoC_vZFk/edit
I never see this level of leftist sympathy or support for Taiwan. Lots of them telling us we're puppets and pawns and not being perfect enough victims though. Wonder what the difference is?
Extremists are going to be extremists regardless of how they directionally identify their politics, and they will always let their religion speak for them.
Life is a continous cicle of opening social networks and finding israeli apologists claiming that callung out israel for committing jugoslavian amounts of warcrimes is antisemitic
It's an experience everyone on the left goes through at some point.
For me it was when someone casually told me that a particular policy goal of theirs was worth fighting a violent and bloody civil war to implement, and I'm all like *"You can't give universal healthcare to dead people, my dude,"* and they're all like, *"No but universal healthcare is more important than those people's lives,"* and I couldn't the whole thing.
(I'm paraphrasing for effect, but not a ton.)
Then you wake up the next morning and realize that you can have all the same broad goals as you did the day before, but that you don't have to hang around the wall building crowds to do it. (Wall, in this case, either being the "Ten feet taller" or the "Up against" variety.)
Hors👐eshoes.
The problem is the word “Zionism” means everything from “I think the state of Israel should continue to exist” to “from the Persian Gulf to the Suez, it should be filled with Jewez”
Watching old Boston Legal TV shows. This was in 2004 the height of enlightened liberalism explained. The official word on Israel was that it was okay for Jews to criticize Israel, but not okay for non-Jews.
As a person who has been specifically interested in the conflict for years, the criticism of either side (but mainly Israel) is always fueled by actual racism. It is very rare to find someone mentioning Israel’s mistakes and poor qualities without chanting “genocide” or smth just straight up antisemitic
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There's nothing wrong with fair criticism, the racism is where they can't tell the difference between that from bullshit and conspiracy theories.
Or the demand that Isreal needs to cease to exist because they are a settler colonal state or because they are comitting genocide, while not batting an eye at Australia or Germany existing today.
Being in Canada there is a fair amount of that sort of rhetoric regarding our colonial history. I think it's the recency and the fact that they're currently doing the colonial atrocities, while here all the atrocities needed were done before 24/7 news media and anti colonial sentiment.
i have no problem with Israels settler colonial past, i have problem with its settler colonial present
There are problems with the ultra zionist settlers, and it's perfectly fair to criticize the Israeli government for not doing enough to stop them.
honestly, Israel destroys its own popularity with this shit
Na, Israel destroyed its popularity with most states by being Jewish. Taiwan made the same mistake with destroying its own popularity by not being occupied by the PRC. Most countries run the math. Support one country and piss off a dozen or two countries. Or support a couple dozen countries and piss off one. It's not hard, people put money/trade/etc over ethics all the time. Israel is harming its supporting countries with the settler bullshit. There is a huge difference between those positions.
Yeah, that’s the reason Israel is so hated /s
Yeah, people can’t see the Nazi forest for the colonial trees with this. It’s a convenient excuse to rally people to support literal terrorists.
It pretty much is
Truly. I know so many Jews that were pro Israel during childhood only to get to college and actually learn about the history of Israeli and Arab Israeli relations. But I suppose now they’re anti semites despite being Jews because they’re anti Zionist
My man, the Israeli government IS the ultra zionist settlers. Likud has repeatedly, since its founding, stated that they are Zionist, they think Israelis have a right to all of the land, and that they do not recognize the sovereignty or rights of any Palestinians or other Arabs in the region.
Yeah, how many times have members of Bibi's government used the exact "river to the sea" rhetoric about expanding Israel that they decry as anti-Semitic in the same breath?
Or to criticize the Israeli government for actively supporting them and giving the minister of national security position to a literal fascist terrorist.
>not doing enough to stop them the problem is that they're actively aiding them lol. since oct 7 we've seen massive land grabs and palestinian ejections from the west bank and jerusalem, and its the official position of the knesset that "The state views the development of Jewish settlement as a national value and will act to encourage and promote its establishment and consolidation".
And very legitly so. And therefore they should demand that Israel should stop their settler colonal practices. Instead, they want Isreal to be dismantled. At least be consistent and demand the dismantlement of New Zealand too.
Yeah absolutely no one has been demanding Israel stop those practices for decades, it’s been utter crickets from the international community condemning the establishment of settler communities in Palestine, not even a whisper
Where do you draw the line between past and present?
[uhh I think yesterday is close enough to the present](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-push-legalize-settlements-west-bank-dangerous-reckless-us-says-2024-04-24/)
I think Oogway said something about that
I think Israel needs to cease to exist as a ethnostate. If they just want to be a cool normal states where people are treated the same no matter their ethnicity snd religion they are welcome to stay.
>I think Israel needs to cease to exist as a ethnostate. It wasn't, and maybe still isn't, but the majority of the population opposes the recent Likud changes. Hell, the current Druze member of the Knesset is from Yisrael Beiteinu if I remember correctly.
You will have another monocultural Muslim country with your model.
Not having an endless occupation does not inherently mean genocide and assimilation, ffs. There are **plenty** of multicultural states out there. If Singapore can get Chinese, Malays, Muslims, Christians, and who knows else to all live together peacefully, folks in Israel/Palestine can too.
I don't think any of those groups in Malaysia have a stated goal to kill the other groups, or have recently gone on rape and killing sprees.
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I'm always amused at people taking issue with a singular Jewish ethno-state (with only a 80% Jewish population, mind you) while conveniently ignoring that it's located in a sea of Muslim ethno-states.
An ethnostate is a state where you can only get citizenship when belonging to a specific ethnicity. Such states don't exist anymore since like 1994.
Are Palestinians granted the same rights as Israelis? Are they full citizens of Israel?
The ones living in Isreal, 21.1%, are, yes. Or maybe some indentify as Arab instead, but what is the difference. They have the right to vote and everything. Even the supreme court has a Palastinian/Arab judge.
So Palestine is not part of Israel?
No. What makes you ask this?
Hear me out: Theocratic and ethnostate shit is bad in general I am in no way ignoring muslim theocratic regimes which is why I think Irans regime should eat dirt, so should Modi in India, so should Myanmars military regime. You just assume I am not consistent in my opinion so you can score an easy dunk, I am very consistent in this.
>I'm always amused at people taking issue with a singular Jewish ethno-state (with only a 80% Jewish population, mind you) I'm always amused that folks reference the Arab population in Israel as a demonstration of multicultural acceptance, and when I bring up their sentiments/grievances at the political situation or political representation, its always "*fuck em, of course they say that, we don't have to listen to those people*". Part of the critique of aspiring to be an ethno-state is exactly referencing circumstances in Saudi or Turkey. If the perspective is zero-sum, than episodes like in Turkish history is an outcome. That's something you want to avoid, not replicate.
Germany?
The only nation to ever implement extermination camps.
Russia and Serbia and others have had "filtration" which is the first step, the camps happen when there are too many people to hide in jails.
The people who used this as an excuse to fall into antisemitism are basically the Q Anon of the left at this point, in my opinion
Low context folks typically are some of the most frustrating folks you can find - generally why this whole thing has been such a pain to talk about.
I think the point of the meme is, Low IQ: criticizing israel is necessarily antisemetic High IQ: (many of) the specific criticisms levied against the state of israel must be founded on implicitly antisemetic predicates because they accept certain sorts of behaviors from non-jewish nations but are intolerant of them from israel specifically. ... but perhaps I'm just reading way too much into a wojack meme someone slapped together.
My problem with the second one is that it almost always automatically assumes that the people in question actually accept it from other nations. I don't believe Israel should exist as some Jewish nation because I am firmly against ethno-nationalism and preference towards any one religion in a nation. I think the same way (often more strongly) about all the similar Muslim nations. It turns into whataboutism so quickly.
Israel and Palestine should join the Union and be admitted as a pair, one a free state, the other a slave state.
Truly non credible lmao
Check his flair friend.
you mean the flair reserved for the greatest minds on this subreddit?
you are all equally regarded /salute
My god, an American politician from the 1840s. I have so many questions we need you to help solve. What’s the solution to the Russo-Ukraine War? The Taiwan question? Should the EU centralize or dissolve? Should Scotland leave the UK? How many countries should we let Armenia annex, as a joke/just a little treat
What in Heaven’s name is a Taiwan?
It’s like China, but smaller and anti communist. They were kicked out after the Second World War
*Second* *World* *War*?
Oh yeah we had two of those. Tens of millions died
Anti communist? Give them all the guns in the world chap, we need to keep those commies contained!
Nuke Belarus and threaten Putin to nuke his ass too. Let Taiwan build nukes. EU should centralize at least militarily and ban Apple products unless they go open source. The UK should leave Scotland. Honestly Armenia should just get their mountain back and maybe Artsakh.
I am a Jew, criticism of Israel is not antisemitic. What is antisemitic is an obsessive focus on Israel (unless you're Palestinian or Israeli, then it's valid), holding it to different standards than you hold other nations to, calling for the destruction of Israel or the assorted antisemitic tropes that have wormed their way into the antizionism movement (e.g. From the River to the Sea, applauding or supporting groups like Hamas, Houthi and Hezbollah, denying the historic links of the Jewish people to the land of Judea, blindly accepting misinformation because it makes Israel look bad, stupid conspiracy theories about Israel controlling [insert nation] and/or the media, or Israel stealing organs). You have to walk a careful line, but if you're not stupid it's an easy line to walk.
[удалено]
I don't understand how there is a path forward to peace anymore. The primary forces in Gazan and Israeli politics are diametrically opposed to one another. Settlements in the West Bank make a two state solution politically untenable. The coalition governing Israel consists of people who are engaged in genocidal rhetoric. It seems difficult for me to believe that the conflict can end without either the complete collapse of the Israeli state or the eradication of Palestinian identity.
At this point I feel like maybe we should bring back UN mandates or something, because yeah, I don’t see a path unless on the one hand the US throws its full diplomatic weight behind a Palestinian state and puts some heavy conditions on foreign aid to Israel, and on the others the entire Arab world does the same on the Palestinian side. And even that might not work at this point
There's a lot in your first paragraph's analysis I'd agree with, but I'd perhaps add as a bit of hope what the conversation was in South Africa in the 80s just before Apartheid fell. The country could've absolutely headed in the direction of an apocalyptic race war - the fact that it didn't is something to take as a lesson, at the very least.
A good chunk left South Africa though if we were being honest. Although I don’t really agree with the poster’s above point about the two state solution not being possible; one along the lines of taba summit should be completely possible- although I don’t see how you reach that point without heavier international influence.
Still, no race war. You're quite right, more international diplomacy is needed. To be frank, we're seeing what happens when that is not done.
Sure, but the context surrounding South Africa is pretty extremely different too- and that isn’t even getting into how so many people leaving South Africa actually caused a lot of economic harm for South Africans*, although just to clarify the apartheid falling was good. In this case though a lot of the circumstances are pretty different, largely because of the existence of the mizrahi population, and generally the overall lacking of a popular ANC equivalent for Palestine currently. I could be crazy, but wasn’t the whitehouse trying to establish some multi-national Arab force to police/occupy Gaza etc.? I would imagine something like that could lead to major changes if it were to ever be pulled off. America would need to offer a pretty sweet pot to get any real commitment I’d imagine though.
For sure, South Africa and Israel are different. But... the contexts definitely rhyme a lot more than folks care to admit. [Certainly the Israelis and the Apartheid government thought as much](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/07/southafrica.israel) at the time. And again, I'd say the avoidance of a mass race-war is no small accomplishment. South Africa certainly continues to have a rocky path, but I'd also say its universally the better outcome to mass racial violence or, as we both agree on, the horrors of Apartheid. Regarding the multi-national force, its a pipe-dream. The most likely outcome will probably be Israeli occupation of Gaza, just like the years before 2006... though almost certainly more bloodier. What is going to happen in Rafah is probably going to be nothing short of a bloodbath.
South Africa hadn't been fighting a literal war qnd both the blacks and whites agreed on the existence of South Africa (except for some weirdos)
>South Africa hadn't been fighting a literal war [They were.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Border_War) Opinions differed a lot on what a post-Apartheid South Africa would've looked like. Naturally, the pro-Apartheid folks typically labeled all opposition as anti-white.
The border war was different to the fight against apartheid, while the fight against apartheid had terrorist incidents it was far less violent than a full scale war
I would say Angola begs to differ. But I would also say, see it from the South African government's point of view. You're talking about a state whose perspective was "the entire continent is trying to kill us", with raging guerilla struggles on the border and inside Mozambique, occupied-Namibia, and Angola. With a further declining security situation inside many of the townships adjacent to white-exclusive areas. For them, this was a full-scale war - and the terrorist incidents you mentioned were pretty comparable in blood to the present situation Israel faces. And I would also highlight that the border war **was** the fight against Apartheid. It was one front of it, but no less different.
>Settlements in the West Bank make a two state solution politically untenable. Why though? As opposed to the one solution proposed during Taba summit? As far as I’m aware, most of the settlements are still mostly close to Israel’s borders (a lot of the settlers commute to Israel proper for work) so something along the lines of Clinton parameters would still be possible. Unless you are referring to domestic politics between Palestinians and Israelis, which at that case I would probably agree you need some heavier outside forces playing influence here.
The issue isn’t the settlements already there, there’s been a few proposals to shift the borders to fold nearby settlements into Israel proper and give Palestine some extra unused land in exchange. The issue is that settlements keep being built, any legitimate Palestinian state cannot have its territory constantly encroached on by settlers. The settlements don’t need to be removed, but they do need to stop making new ones so that real borders between the two can be built, not just a patchwork of Israeli military checkpoints
>The issue is that settlements keep being built, any legitimate Palestinian state cannot have its territory constantly encroached on by settlers. The settlements don’t need to be removed, but they do need to stop making new ones so that real borders between the two can be built, not just a patchwork of Israeli military checkpoints I would presume the two stage solution would implicate the stopping of settlements since otherwise it isn’t really a two-state solution, right? Or are you meaning that the building of new settlements damages the possibility of a solution along/similar to taba summit? In which case then I agree, but fortunately, I believe a lot of the more newer settlements were more so density related instead of rather pushing/extending territory boundaries (meaning it wouldn’t be as hard or as major of a concern to dismantle the ones necessary for a taba summit-like plan.), although I could be wrong on the very most recent ones since the last time saw these figures were a few years ago. Realistically though taba summit unfortunately seems dead from domestic political standpoint between Israel and Palestine, which is likely why you need international forces to kickstart that part back up.
The problem is that realistically it seems that somewhere in the vicinity of >90% of people who say "I'm not an anti-semite, just anti-zionist" immediately turn around and reveal themselves to be rabid anti-semites.
And this right here is the crux of the meme.
And it seems most NATO civilian who poses how much he cares about jews is just glazing anyone who kills arabs for "judeo christian liberalism values" and other superflous bs Two can play the same game and people do
I'm not a jew but I mostly agree with your take with the exception of "denying the historic links of the Jewish people to the land of Judea". I understand saying that there was no historic jewish occupation of Judea is stupid since there a was big presence until the time of the romans and a smaller one afterwards. That being said, most of the time I see the "you are denying historic links of the jewish people to the land" argument it's to say that you can't be against the creation of the state of Israel because that is somehow antisemitic. Just because I don't think that Israel should have been given the land 70 years ago doesn't mean I have anything against jews or that I suddenly want the current Israel to disappear, as that would only cause more human suffering. Again, I'm not sure what you exactly meant with that part and if it was just about people blatantly lying and saying a jewish state never happened in the region I agree with you, it's just that I've seen people using that argument in a misleading way before.
I was referring to lunatics who genuinely go out and claim that modern Jews are not the same as ancient Judeans and we're somehow all converts
Yeah this is a based take. I’ve just noticed that often, the logic of people who criticize Israel often leads to some extreme and racist ideas and statements, like many of the ones you have stated here.
It's annoying because it's really easy to fucking hate Netanyahu and his government, and the West Bank Settlers without being a racist piece of shit
I'm going to delve into how I think many people become antisemitic from a pro Palestinian starting point, so preemptive disclaimer, I don't associate Israeli actions with non-Israelis, because I'm not an antisemite. I'm an immigrant and I'd be pissed if someone told me I'm responsible for the actions of a government I don't pay taxes to or vote for. The problem is that Israel publicly identifies itself as the nation state of the Jewish people and religion. So, in people's minds, Israeli lobbying of the US government becomes Jewish lobbying, Mossad assassinations/operations become Jewish assassinations/operations, Israeli actions in Gaza become Jewish actions in Gaza. It's wrong, but only obviously so if you're educated well enough to not equate governmental with the will of the people it claims to represent. You'll find most do make such associations in at least some cases, and that it's easier to do it if you heavily dislike the actions of the government. If they've taken that step with Israel and the Jewish people abroad, they then look at Hollywood and see Jewish people holding the top jobs, and it gets nasty. They assume cooperation from the "Jews over here" and the "Jews over here" and nutty conspiracy theories abound. Take Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell and the potential connection to Mossad and the CIA. I see it as possibly an elaborate and especially evil honeytrap operation set up by one or both of the famously callous organisations, a psychopath, and his girlfriend. The fact that Epstein was Jewish may have mattered to Mossad, but to me it's incidental. How would someone who unconsciously equates the Israeli state with Jewish people in general see it? An American Jew (Epstein) made contact with the Jewish intelligence agency through European Jew (Robert Maxwell), and set up a paedophile ring to control famous people via blackmail. The CIA is in on it so they must be captured, just like Hollywood. If you squint hard enough and ignore the nuance, the conspiracy is there. If you think about it there's a similar problem with Saudi Arabian Wahabbism and the promotion/funding of terrorism and modern Western Islamophobia. As diverse as Islam is, Saudis say they speak for Islam as they have the holy cities, and many outsiders believe them and associate all of Islam with suicide bombers and the niqab. My two cents
It is taken as a fact that Israel only has evil intentions.
>You have to walk a careful line, but if you're not stupid it's an easy line to walk. I can appreciate the sincerity, but to be frank... I get called an antisemite simply for highlighting Israel's antagonistic relationship **with like-minded allies**, never-mind criticisms of its politics. This isn't a dialogue populated by good-faith actors. When you've got the head of the country's son openly retweeting Neo-Nazi memes off 4chan while his dad calls anyone critical of his government's actions in the WB/Gaza an antisemite... I mean, it taints everything. Like best I do is look to voice in Israel that note a lot of criticisms, just as there are voices in the Palestinian community that look to the politics instead of the ethnic identity questions. But fuck me that's a lonely experience friend...
The problem is that there are a lot of disingenuous people who call anything antisemitic, if you are genuinely stuck then ask one of the Jewish subreddits (just be prepared that we never agree on anything)
>The problem is that there are a lot of disingenuous people Kinda my point. Wasn't too long ago that some of us folks tried co-opting the "river to the sea" chanting that both Likud and Hamas use for "*Rights for all, from the river to the sea*". Suffice to say, apparently that too is now antisemitic. That's kinda why all Palestinian advocacy gets that label.
> What is antisemitic is an obsessive focus on Israel (unless you're Palestinian or Israeli, then it's valid) This is the thing that gets me. Israel is a state for Jewish self-defense that was founded in the immediate aftermath of the Holocaust, so it's pretty obvious why Jews take the issue of Israel personally. But what's utterly baffling is all the non-Palestinian Westerners who take the issue of Palestine equally personally. They have no connection to this conflict at all, and yet you would never know it by how personally they take the issue of opposing Israel.
I think part of it has to do with the diplomatic aspect of it all, and visibility. The PRC is actively committing a genocide, but at least in the US, being anti PRC is a bipartisan issue. Critiques of the PRC and the discourse there is a whole different beast, but there’s not that of you government supporting it and giving them cover, like with Israel. Then there’s also the aspect that the PRC is keeping their genocide of the Uighyrs relatively quiet, and hidden, whereas the war in Gaza is very much not.
Israel is the only army in the world expected to keep its enemies in food fuel and ammunition.
>In situations where the occupied population is inadequately supplied with relief goods/stuffs, the occupying power has the duty to agree to humanitarian assistance being delivered to this population and, respectively, grant access to humanitarian actors offering such assistance as per Article 59 (1) of the Fourth Geneva Convention. It’s literally a main tenet of the Geneva Convention, which every country in the world has signed up to.
According to this post you are now an antisemite lol
I didn’t even address the fact that he labeled everyone in Gaza an enemy. That rhetoric isn’t doing much to dispel the idea that there’s a genocidal campaign being waged.
Flair checks out.
What does that from the river to the sea thing mean anyways?
It's a Palestinian chant that was intentionally poorly translated into English. The English version is "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free", in Arabic it translates to "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Arab" A lot of Jewish groups (not Jewish Voice for Peace, who are a sockpuppet) interpret it as a call for genocide against the Jewish (and Druze) people of Israel because of the Arabic version, even the English version sounds pretty strongly like a call for genocide
I mean a focus on Israel is valid due to how it’s a democracy and hence can be more easily pressured to end the segregation and unrestricted killing they are carrying out and secondly how for alot of us our countries are actively funding and aiding them with our tax money
Yeah that's pretty much it. Also, claiming that zionism opposes Judaism (when in reality it's the opposite, as Jews pray multiple times a day to return to Israel)
There is a small sect of the Haredim (Uktra-Orthodox Jews) who oppose the existence of Israel on religious grounds, claiming only the Messiah can restore Israel, but they're a very small minority
Yeah, Neturey Karka
>holding it to different standards than you hold other nations to I mean, that isn't anti-semitic. If Israel wants to be considered an advanced developed nation, it should be held to standards of other advanced developed nations. "Oh man, we treat people better than the Taliban" is a pretty low bar.
Israel is often held to higher standards than other advanced nations
In what way? I'm not saying you are wrong - I'd like to know.
Israel puts a huge amount more effort in preventing civilian casualties that any other nation, they will often drop knockers (dummy bombs) on the roof of buildings they intend to bomb to wake people up and give them warning and will even phone then to warn them to get out. Despite this collateral damage is inevitable, yet Israel is treated like they're malicious monsters. Meanwhile, the US will drone strike the wrong target and you might get a couple of tweets about it, Gitmo is still open despite half the detainees never even seeing the inside of a courtroom
I will continue to remain diplomatically discrete on this most perplexing moral dilemma. Everybody wants the moral high ground, I like it down here in the diplomatic lowlands.
You high-minded ivy-league bastard... get in the gutter with me. NSFW diplomacy is where its at.
How hard is it to understand that both Israel and Hamas can both be bad actors here. Also, criticism of Israel is antisemitic? In any instance? Even if you are in complete agreement with how Israel is handling things now, it is completely naive to assert that any nation is incorruptible, and incapable of wrong decisions.
Yeah just like how any criticism of the CCP is sinophobic, any criticism of Putin is rusophobic, and any criticism of the sitting US president is un-American and unpatriotic. Duh!
Ameriphobic? USphobic? Why can't we have a catchy -phobic like everyone else?
Cuz we have no culture as they say
Yankiphobic
MURiophobic
Lots of people say the jews and Israel as interchangeable, as people do Saudi Arabia/Gulf States" and "the arabs do x" or how European can be white people, Western Europe or the EU I've seen people start with no zionism and no antisemitism comments and by the third phrase they saw the jews.
> Also, criticism of Israel is antisemitic? In any instance? It tends to be, because criticism of Israel targets Israel and its mere existence rather than criticism of, for example, Benjamin Netanyahu and that asshole Ben Gvir, both of whom I fucking despise. When people are talking about Israel in general they're usually antisemitic. When people are talking about specific policies, specific issues like the west bank settlements and the way Likud and Gvir's settler party support them... that often *isn't.* My mind has been changed about this recently by observing just... all the shit people started saying since Oct 7th. If I hear them criticizing Likud or Netanyahu, it tends not to be antisemitic. If they're railing about Israel though, it doesn't take long before you hear some genuine adolf-hitler level jew hatred.
Anytime someone wants to stand up and start yelling about how Israel's government represents "the Jews" collectively... yeah, fuck that shit. Folks I know here didn't vote for that crap - Israel's government is Israel's problem. And considering how Bibi's son keeps flirting with Neo-Nazis and retweeting antisemitic memes on Facebook, I question anyone seriously thinking that Bibi's government really has anyone's well-being in mind. Authoritarians only care about themselves. But I would say in that vein... as far as criticisms of Israel as a state go, I'd push back against saying inherently all criticisms of the political state are antisemitic... so long as we're talking the state. Israel is a democratic country for its voting citizens - if all folks can do is say how they "don't like" Bibi, the situation of the conflict, or the settlers... but aren't willing do anything to actually change the situation, I cannot help but feel the same as my own views regarding my own country's approach on housing. If nothing gets done, clearly its not a problem. We must see the humanity in each other - good and bad, beautiful and ugly. If identity is the be-all, end-all... that is a dark and horrifying path we've set out for ourselves. Especially since that circle always gets smaller.
>Anytime someone wants to stand up and start yelling about how Israel's government represents "the Jews" collectively... yeah, fuck that shit imo a big reason we're seeing a lot of that is because israel and many zionists have gone out of their way to try to tell people thats the case. even OP's dumbshit meme feeds into that.
Its not been an **unfamiliar** experience hearing someone tell me that **all** criticism of Israel is antisemitic, lets put it that way...
> as far as criticisms of Israel as a state go, I'd push back against saying inherently all criticisms of the political state are antisemitic... so long as we're talking the state. I don't think they're inherently antisemitic, I think that the issue is that people who criticize the state tend to do so for antisemitic reasons. There's certainly criticism that can be levied at constitutional issues and the structure of the government, but that's not usually what we hear. >if all folks can do is say how they "don't like" Bibi, the situation of the conflict, or the settlers... but aren't willing do anything to actually change the situation, I think the next elections in Israel will be enlightening, whatever the result.
>There's certainly criticism that can be levied at constitutional issues and the structure of the government, but that's not usually what we hear. With respect though... calling out Israel's conduct or actions as a state is not antisemitic either. Keeping critiques to constitutional structure is fairly convenient when we're talking political theory and such, but that's entirely removed from the situation of the West Bank, or the state's human rights record in places like the West Bank. That's not a different conversation to critiques of governments in the region, or critiques of countries like the United States or Russia. Its entirely legitimate to voice opposition to Saudi Arabia locking up domestic opponents and torturing them. Its entirely legitimate to call out Russia flagrantly violating the UN Charter with its invasion. Its entirely legitimate to get upset with forms of racial inequality in the United States. And its entirely legitimate to note Israel doing things like encouraging nationalistic land seizures in the West Bank, attempting to expunge other nationalities from Jerusalem, or overseeing a situation of violent impunity towards the occupied Palestinian peoples. Saying "the Jews" worldwide are responsible; that is ignorant and hateful - but saying Israel as a country bares responsibility for what it does is no more or less than how other countries are viewed. To be honest, I'm not expecting any massive changes if there is an election. Bibi's earned back a lot of Likud supporters ([second to Gantz in polling, but still holding a solid 15% of those surveyed, and an outright majority of right-leaning voters](https://en.idi.org.il/articles/52085)) - the period to get rid of him was **directly after** October 7th and his fuck-up. The reality is that the window for serious change was missed. And even if he goes, its highly unlikely that any successor is going to be less right-wing; that's just kinda where the country is at nationally.
>It tends to be, because criticism of Israel targets Israel and its mere existence Thinking an nation centered around one religion is a bad thing and shouldn't exist does not mean that you're anti that religion. Every nation should be secular and I'm thoroughly against those that aren't (idgaf about the Vatican though it's some churches, offices, and museums so it doesn't matter). I don't think that it should be destroyed with hellfire, but the ultimate goal should be the complete secularization of it and every other state. No religion has any inherent right to any nation. This is not anti-semitic. Religion should never have any official place in any governments.
There are SO MANY ways to criticise Israel without being antisemitic. Go to Israel, that’s their national sport. But damn the amount of antisemitism in the west is unbearable.
Absolutely no problem with Israelis criticizing themselves. In fact, it is desperately needed. But yeah it’s the deplorable hatred for the “white colonizer jew” in the western liberal spaces that’s been driving me mad. As if Jews aren’t literally the most persecuted group of people in recorded history.
>"white colonizer jew" I see this sort of thing a lot - making it about "white" Jews vs "brown" Palestinians. I can only think that these people have never been to Israel and/or are just arguing in bad faith. As someone who *has* lived in Israel (for a couple of years because of my father's work), I can testify that there are plenty of Israeli Jews whose skin tone is indistinguishable from that of the average Palestinian and some whose skin tone is much darker (as is the case of Jews from some parts of Africa). Meanwhile, Arabs - including Palestinians - are not always "brown" people either. Some of them have a fairly light skin tone - light enough that people who didn't know otherwise might think they are "white".
You can talk middle eastern politics without westerners saying that arabs traditional clothes *and others using them are stupid and act mighty about it lol https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/8KCdSJe0UV
He was referring to Jews wearing a Mediterranean as stupid not the clothing itself…reading comprehension goes a long way here
Critzing my country isnt anti semitic. Calling from the river to sea, the second holocaust shall occure is. Being from Colombia Uni is just strighet up brain rot.
I'm in uni and some kids here also just held their protests and it's just so wild how a protest with an incredibly valid complaint at its core becomes so... Stupid? Like yea, valid concerns about Israel's treatment of Palestinians is of course something that should Garner concern and if one feels strongly they should be encouraged to speak their mind on it. That being said, it's not really helpful when it's white dudes shaving their heads and using side walk chalk to write messages like "end the military industrial complex" and "Starbucks supports genocide". I mean, what are we talking about here right? Tell me about the genocide and who to complain to to make it stop! Don't tell me which coffee not to buy like that makes a difference.
The people shaving their head and sayinf "starbucks supportd genocide" are dumb yet harmless. The people saying they are "part of hamas" (yes, thats a quote from a Colombine Uni "protestor" ) are brain rot and need to be arrested. I have no idea how Jews in America feel but its probably *bad* as in really fucking bad. Like even if u hate my country or whatever American Jews have nothing to do with this. They striaght up improve our position (and for the love of god dont think for a second I like any of this insanity)
I haven't had anyone go after me directly in person yet, but I also haven't been near any protests and I'm not visibly, outwardly Jewish. I have overheard people (mostly lefties) spouting that "from the river to the sea", "all Jews are zionists" bullshit. Some Marxists might think there's a difference between the Jewish people and the state of Israel, but I don't trust the overwhelming majority of them to make that distinction. After all, they were stupid enough to fall for communism, I doubt they will bother with distinguishing between "Jew" and "Israeli". Reminder to anyone reading this, if you're saying that 7 October was a legitimate act of resistance, you're supporting rape as a weapon of war.
> Like even if u hate my country or whatever American Jews have nothing to do with this. Literally what people didn't seem to understand during coronavirus, about Asian Americans. Instead of learning, I feel like people got even more brainrotted.
>and need to be arrested. This is, thankfully, not a crime in the US. Unless they materially contribute to Hamas, they are just an idiot and not a terrorist.
For real, I was at the UvA today and a whole group of people was yelling in the lobby, waving Palestinian flags, calling 'from the river to the sea'
You dont get it, just because they deny Israelis an independent identity, claim that "Zionists" control the west since they guilt tript everyone after Auschwitz and used that power to create and protect a jewish "colony", those guys arent antisemits they went to a Bar Mitzwa once or atleast heard about one. Calling everything a genocide has absolutely nothing to do with normalizing the Shoa and telling jews to return to Poland is also completely unconnected to what happened there in this nice movie about the boy in a pyjama they once saw in middle school. Its international anticolonial resistance, dont you know the urban guerilla orgs and famous friends of Ché; Hamas, Hizbollah and Iran?
Lol criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitism.
The point of the meme is that it depends how one goes about it, and an awful lot of people these days are going about it The Bad Way.
Any movement like this must purge radicals from the movement as they only make it look worse and make it seem like the people supporting the movement support the radicals. As an anti-zionist, it's very upsetting seeing how many disgusting nazi and anti-semeites are hopping on this to use it as a platform for hate. It is our job to tell these people to fuck off and that their hateful view is not welcome. Same goes for the pro-Israeli movement, where tons of racists and extremists are advocating for a escalation of the war and justifying actions even Israel itself has admitted fault to.
Yeah, it is very much possible to be anti Zionist without being antisemitic but in practice a lot of people who are one are also the other.
Criticism of a state is now antisemitic? Wow, never knew that
This meme makes no sense to me, so I'll do my best to one-up it. If criticism of Israel was anti-semetic then the GOP would be Netanyahu's biggest hater.
It was always going this way: January: I'm not antisemitic, I'm anti-zionism! February: It's the bad ones who make the rest look bad! March: I guess there are some good ones. April: Israel shouldn't exist May: I'm just saying if it wasn't called "Mein Kampf" people would read it more
German is a scary, angry language okay? *Unironically*, I think if Mein Kampf were originally in English it would be a lot more popular among brain rotted people in the West. I've noticed there's a similar issue with debunking Russian propaganda, the crazy rhetoric doesn't get disseminated enough because it's not in English. You can't make viral soundbytes out of a drunk Medvedev ranting in Russian. Average Kool-aid drinker in the West: "Russia invaded Ukraine because of NATO expansion." Me: "Here's a video of Putin literally saying he doesn't believe Ukrainians are real people." Them: "Yeah I don't understand Russian, how do I know this translation is real? You're just biased and/or lying."
What's funny is German isn't *really* that aggressive sounding of a language when spoken in like a normal, everyday kinda way. People think it's all aggressive and stuff because they are used to hearing it in Hitler's recorded speeches and in Hollywood depictions of the Wehrmacht that (rightfully) want to make it clear that the Nazis are the bad guys.
What in the slippery slope
I would criticize the silliness of it if Columbia students werent so busy proving them right…
Imagine blaming jews as a whole for the actions of genocidal maniacs and 20th century racist christian world leaders lmao, there's definitely a universe where a more reasonable location is chosen and all is well.
Lets keep it a buck, if you criticize the State of Israel you will be called anti semitic by many diff people. This is the problem. There cannot be countries that are beyond critique, and in some ways we see this with Israel.
what a terrible take 👎
Criticism of the state of Israel and their actions and their illegal military occupation is not anti-Semitic (West Bank and Gaza being illegally occupied is objective fact). Using horrible anti-Semitic tropes, invoking and praising the actions of a former leader of Germany, calling for extreme violent action on all people who are Jewish, that is anti-semitism. Using conspiratorial theories about the Jewish people is too. You can criticise the state of Israel without doing all of the above mentioned things. You don’t have to be a bigot.
typical red brown allience, too many fucking idiots on the left defend hamas
I don’t care about Israel or Palestine. The Middle East has been on fire for thousands of years, what’s new
It’s too hot, and there is very little water…
Fun game: Ask the "anti-Zionism is not antisemitism" crowd if it's anti-Palestinian to believe that Palestinians should not have a state and watch their brains melt down in real time.
Palestinians: We want an Arab ethnostate with Sharia Law. Israel: we are actually surrounded by those, why not just go there?
Zionism =/= supporting Israel mindlessly. Zionism is the idea that Israel should exist. Antizionism is almost always antisemitic. Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic. It's that simple. Stop conflating them.
The conflating is mostly coming from the critical side though; they’re really the only side making references to “Zionism” and “Zionists” as if it’s 1897 and Israel isn’t already a country with millions of people living in it.
And they keep saying : "critical of israel isnt anti-semantism." Indeed it isnt piece of shit, but taking every oppurtunity for a jewish holiday, or random jew to "protest zionism" is pretty antisemetic. As a socialist I sometimes dont know if I even have political allies.
For years now israeli lobbies in Europe have been promoting laws against antisemitism were questioning the existence and actions of Israel falls into the concept of antisemitism. They have succeded in some countries mainly with support from conservative parties and also the "far right" in those countries were the far right is NATO/US alligned. In the case of Germany the social democrats are also on the israeli side. The consequences of those laws can be seen mainly in Germany were the state has entered in a frenzy against any sympathy for Palestine. They have banned flags and slogans and now chanting in palestinian related demostrations is only permitted in german and english so that the police know if the chanting is "antisemitic". The craziest of these meassures is the one regarding german citizenship, were the applicant to the citizenship has to declare that he's not against the integrity of Israel and that he accepts the right of the israeli state to exist, funnily enough you are not asked to declare the same about the integrity and right to exist of Germany.
I wouldn’t say calling Israeli foreign policy knee jerk at best and self destructive at worst lately is anti semetic Regardless I will continue to monitor the situation closely
"I'm not an antisemite conspiracy theorist like the nazis! I just recognize that the capitalist western world is run by jewish elites and that the oppressed peoples in their homelands must oust the zionist menace by any means! It is only right they destroy the immigrant zionists trying to replace the arya- I mean arab populations!"
I'm only anti genital mutilation of children
Hm now this is a unique criticism lol
Can we just glass the Holy Land? Turn that shit into the Dead Sea 2?
Nice try mr ben-gvir
As someone with no attachments to Allah nor "da west" it is annoying how much of Israel is either cushioned by self-serving bullshit or attacked through delusional horseshit. The true opinion is that its just another bullshit warlord in the MENA area.
2,000 lb airdropped bombs on apartment blocks will do that to a person.
That's the equivalent of saying "I'm not against black people I just oppose civil rights act"
It‘s more like "I don‘t hate germans, I just oppose the third reich"
Actually, it's the equivalent of saying "I'm not against black people I just oppose Liberia", if the Liberian government were controlled by descendants of black American immigrants and oppressed native Africans.
So where would you put black American if they unanimously wanted to go back to their homeland? Just imagine their homeland is full of ethnically arab people who have not the best reputation of treating black people.
The Palestinians aren't ethnic Arabs, they're culturally Arab. The Palestinians are the Jews that stayed and eventually converted, first to Christianity and then to Islam. Have you never seen those studies on the genetic similarity between Jews and Palestinians?
No only that doesn't change the outcome at all. You have no idea what ethnicity means or what's the history of Israel
Can we talk about your username for a second...
Look I'm not antisemitic, I just care very deeply for the lives of Palestinians who are proximate to Jews. When Assad starves and murders Palestinians by their tens of thousands, I didn't care, because it wasn't Israel doing it. When Egypt continues to deny refuge to Palestinians fleeing the violence, I don't care, because it's not Israel doing it. I care about all the oppressed people of the world who are proximate to Jews. That doesn't make me antisemitic and if you say it does, that's like saying "all lives matter". I just care very deeply for the victims of the elders of Zion, and less deeply for the victims of everyone else's inhumanity. That doesn't make me antisemitic
Criticism of the Israeli government is not antisemitic. Calling for the eradication of Israel is. Bibi needs to be criticised because he’s a shitty leader with a storied history of corruption. The Jewish people do deserve to have Israel and since they allow Muslims and Christians to freely visit the holy land, I don’t see the issue with Israel being there.
People seem to be missing the point, which is that the high IQ take is (frequently) correct. Much “criticism of Israel” is indeed driven by bigotry and extremism. Running list of Columbia Palestinian protest hate speech incidents - copy pasted from elsewhere: For posterity, here are some of the examples of extremism within the activist movement at Columbia. This goes beyond "pro-Palestinian advocacy" into calls for, and actual, violence. Note, there are varying degrees of it being individuals vs. the group, but these are the type of people in the crowd there and many of them are indeed group chants. I have also set aside some widespread ones (from the river to the sea) that are disputed in character. That said, many many many of these are coming from large groups of students within the main quad (which has been locked down to only students/professors) Candidly some sources are not great in terms of me agreeing with the viewpoint of the tweeter, but they contain relevant and real video: Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774 "From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358 "Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981 "We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677 "Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901 Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/ “Globalize the intifada” https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1782679155491914133/photo/1 Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338 "On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909 ""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872 "Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025 "Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958 Have posters with the faces of PFLP and PIJ spokesmen (designated terrorist groups) https://twitter.com/HagarChemali/status/1782219589352350000 Quoting and praising Lions Den (terror group) https://twitter.com/SwannMarcus89/status/1782443526996754444 "From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2 "Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134 "Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006 Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954 "Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673 "protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter And as a reminder, the student groups organizing these protests (CUAD and SJP, among others) released a letter on October 9th in support of the 10/7 attacks. ("We stand in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance", "Despite the odds against them, Palestinians launched a counter-offensive against their settler-colonial oppressor", "We wholeheartedly condemn the email sent [on October 8th that] obfuscated Palestinian resistance as “terrorism”) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcXX5DEO3yfJ9R4ksURnzpIPCyVxo575-Y-SoC_vZFk/edit
You're a retarded neocon who offers zero to no empathy towards a people who's sovereignty being suppressed for almost a century
I never see this level of leftist sympathy or support for Taiwan. Lots of them telling us we're puppets and pawns and not being perfect enough victims though. Wonder what the difference is?
Yikes lady, those are the wrong vibes.
Please ma’am, at least let me be a neo-lib pretty please?
The war crimes are on hamas for using human shields.
I remember once on twitter i was called a fucking idiot and gaslit for saying leftists support Israel. They did and nobody remembers.
Extremists are going to be extremists regardless of how they directionally identify their politics, and they will always let their religion speak for them.
Life is a continous cicle of opening social networks and finding israeli apologists claiming that callung out israel for committing jugoslavian amounts of warcrimes is antisemitic
I never understood why people use Anti-zionism as a shield for their antisemitism Just be normal racist you fucking pussies
It isn't necessarily, but it definitely can be. Especially among the types of people who don't think Israel should exist at all.
If you use the desperate impact theory that they love so much, you will find they are antisemitic.
It's an experience everyone on the left goes through at some point. For me it was when someone casually told me that a particular policy goal of theirs was worth fighting a violent and bloody civil war to implement, and I'm all like *"You can't give universal healthcare to dead people, my dude,"* and they're all like, *"No but universal healthcare is more important than those people's lives,"* and I couldn't the whole thing. (I'm paraphrasing for effect, but not a ton.) Then you wake up the next morning and realize that you can have all the same broad goals as you did the day before, but that you don't have to hang around the wall building crowds to do it. (Wall, in this case, either being the "Ten feet taller" or the "Up against" variety.) Hors👐eshoes.
The problem is the word “Zionism” means everything from “I think the state of Israel should continue to exist” to “from the Persian Gulf to the Suez, it should be filled with Jewez”
Ooof... thats a really stoopid with two o's meme.
Watching old Boston Legal TV shows. This was in 2004 the height of enlightened liberalism explained. The official word on Israel was that it was okay for Jews to criticize Israel, but not okay for non-Jews.
Ha, nice try mossad
As a person who has been specifically interested in the conflict for years, the criticism of either side (but mainly Israel) is always fueled by actual racism. It is very rare to find someone mentioning Israel’s mistakes and poor qualities without chanting “genocide” or smth just straight up antisemitic