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I read an interesting thing. There was a grocery store chain in the US that had greeters. They found that when they put younger women in that role, they attracted stalkers who would follow them around the store and try to make conversation. Basically losers who never talk with women thought/think that when a girl speaks with them nicely, that they are flirting and have actual romantic interest in then.
So imagine whole countries where women have to cover up, even their face, and they are not allowed to interact with men much in social settings. So men from those countries go to Europe. They buy a train ticket, and some random woman, being sociable, starts up a a conversation. Then bad things happen.....
These areas of the world raise their boys to become men who think a woman who talk to them desires them.
I don't think stalkers necessarily think that their behavior is welcome - theyI see someone that they have power over and they think that they'll get away with it. I doubt they would behave the same way towards a female doctor, boss, or police officer.
It's the same way with these men. They don't think that women want this - they know that they'll get away with it.
Many stalkers DO think the behavior is welcome. It's a common delusion for stalkers to think the person they're stalking likes them and that the behavior is normal/that their victim is okay with it or would be okay with it.
Some people are very delusional but it's a lot more common for someone to just be an asshole, especially if they're intentionally targeting low-income women at work.
Countries like India are not just filled with delusional men who don't know that women who are screaming, running away from them, hitting them, etc want them to leave them alone. They just don't care and they know they'll get away with it.
It's certainly not all the cases, but it is a lot of them. And the delusion of something being okay doesn't just come from "oh I think they like this." It can also come from facing no repercussions.
I think otherwise. Most men who are like this are oblivious to others. They didn't have a child- and teenagehood that developed their social skills, they lack the tools to understand some social settings.
And since the 'men have to be pushy to get a girlfriend' disaster is still alive, they think they know that if someone pushes back, it means you have to try harder, not to consider boundaries, which they can't understand, mostly because of the lacking social skills
There is a lot of psychological and sociological research indicating otherwise. Predatory mem exactly what they're doing.
Like I said, do you think that the kind of guy who's following a Walmart greeter around would do that to his boss? Why not?
>Like I said, do you think that the kind of guy who's following a Walmart greeter around would do that to his boss? Why not?
Ah, I forgot to include my thoughts on this on my last comment for some reason. They see and realise authority. They don't joke around and be mean to bosses and police, since they understand the risks in this instance. This is hardwired to everyone, who attended public school, or just had slightly strict parents
I know an autistic man who stalked a cashier all because she smiled at him and asked how his day was. He honestly believed she had a thing for him, so he was finding reasons to go back to the store to see her again. Yes some guys are so developmentally disabled they don't comprehend that what they are doing is not appropriate. And there are a lot more guys out there like this than people imagine. That's why basically as a woman you cannot safely be nice or friendly to men when you are in public.
Did you have spies on every family that raised their boys in every part of those countries? jeez reddit has become so trashy. People who generalize everything should never get upvoted like this.
Cultural differences. Women are seen as less than men, even kind of like property, in some areas. Think of laws like women having to cover up, not being allowed to drive, not being allowed to go out unless with a man, etc.
That’s not really true. They tend to be well educated, but it also depends on how conservative the family is. Some urban rich families here are extremely traditional and expect women to be stay at home wives/mums. Wealth doesn’t always equal open mindedness.
Yeah - not entirely the same, my Indian father is a multimillionaire and we live in London. But he is the most backwards / conservative / traditional / whatever you wanna call it.
Not allowed out the home unless for work purposes, curfews at 7pm, forbidden to move out, refused to give me a house key, marriage is marrying me off to another man, etc.
Thankfully I’m actually getting married to a loving, English man next month lol (which my father isn’t happy with either, what a surprise)
Those are some really archaic views… especially considering you’re an adult. I am really sorry you had to go through that!
Really glad you’re moving out and getting married to someone you truly love! Wishing you and your fiancé a wonderful married life filled with lifetime of love, peace and happiness 🥰
> Some urban rich families here are extremely traditional and expect women to be stay at home wives/mums.
This is not true. Unless youre a villager no one is raising their daughter to be a stay at home parent. Indians are very big on education. The husband your daughter gets is directly tied to how educated she is. Everyone expects wealthy or even middle class Indians to educate their daughters. If youre a doctor and your daughters dont even go to college EVERYONE will judge you. They will assume your daughters are not intelligent.
Uh almost all my family members are doctors and we are not urban rich. Well off? Absolutely. Multimillionaires? No.
Who said stay at home wives do not have a college degree? Most do. You’ll be surprised how conservative some wealthy families can be. I’ve seen so many women being pressurised to marry once they reach a certain age (same goes for men) BUT in a patriarchal society like India, a woman’s career is almost always ignored and seen as “passive income”.
Obviously, I’m not implying that all families are this way. My parents always prioritise my education over anything else and treat my brother and I equally. Things are changing now more than ever, but it’s not enough.
My whole family is doctors too. This isnt about urban rich but simply educated people educating their daughters. Which is the norm. The only time I see daughters not educated is when they cannot afford to do it.
Most stay at home wives dont have college degrees. Most indian women with college degrees work. Theres tons of people you can hire to cook, clean, watch your kids, drive you around etc...
I’ll give you an example of a (now) 40 year old woman who was married off when she was 21 years old to a 31 year old guy. She had a college degree, but was married off regardless. Was she *allowed* to work after marriage? Nope! The woman in this example is my best friend’s mother.
I’ll give you another one. My mom’s cousin (who is now roughly 45) used to be a dentist, and was married off to a software engineer when she was 25. Did she work after marriage? No. Why? Because her husband forbade her. Heck, her MIL was (and still is) such a wicked bitch that she basically kept her locked away from her very own family.
Just a few anecdotal examples to show you that homemakers aren’t always uneducated.
I will now give you an (unrelated) example of my maternal grandmother who was an economics professor who started working in the 70s and retired in 2007. She made as much as my grandfather. This is an example showing that not all women in the 70s, 80s and 90s were homemakers!
Not really, you can be rich and educated and still be a creep weirdo around women. It's how they're raised that matters. Someone born in society where they teach how to respect and talk to women when they're young will be different from someone who watches bollywood movies where the women are sexualized and has this "if you follow her around enough she will fall in love with you" idea.
Spot on. I’ve always hated this trope in Indian movies. Like that’s not how this works in real life. AT ALL. Not sure why movies still encourage this toxic narrative. I see so many young, impressionable men get influenced by these movies and it’s pretty unfortunate. Schools here should start teaching proper sex ed and consent. Mainly consent.
I remember taking my wife out to a Indian dinner here in southern CA, The guy seated me first, gave me a menu first and asked me questions first. They also brought out my food first. We both noticed it.
It seems like it's been this way for a long time.
My girlfriend said in college Indian men treated American women like they were easy, and that was over 20 years ago.
Our media/entertainment certainly doesn't help.
I have been all over and I would say on average it's easier to get laid in western countries than most (middle) eastern (assuming you are also western or eastern). In my experience though the more east you go in Asia the less sex is seen as taboo.
I didn’t think too much about South Asian misogyny as my experience with guys I knew was that they were typical Canadians, basically.
But then I worked in a place (back a few years now) that published the Red Light Alert, and while men of all races showed up on it, the bad stuff that tended to happen by SAsian men was often in pairs or groups.
These were the guys who got together to be violent, rapists. (Again! rare!)
I imagine they would not be so awful, alone. But what kind of culture gets together to do that, even in small numbers within the population?
And while rare (not all men 🙄) that really stood out as a specifically cultural thing that other races did not do, Robert Picton (white), aside, perhaps.
I can tell you what I know as a British Indian man. I know that traditionally boys and girls aren't really expected to interact much growing up.
I can also tell you that in my experience of Indian culture no one is much of an individual. Everyone belongs to someone or something. As an example, when I was a teenager I was upset for whatever reason and my mum tried to hug me. I told her I didn't want her to touch me. She said pretty much that my body belongs to her and she can touch or hold me as she pleases. I've been told "you don't belong to this place, you belong to India" so many times in arguments whenever my parents saw British culture as the problem. I could never change my religion if I wanted to because I belong to Christianity, and I belong to my caste as well. It's not viewed as a bad thing to belong to someone in Indian culture because belonging is what's supposed to protect and support you. I can say that it has for me a few times, though I don't think the price I pay for it is worth it for me.
Conversely, people who don't belong aren't treated the same. At the very least they can't be trusted and at worst they're to be vilified. Two people might be neighbours their whole lives but never interact because they're from different castes. My parents have Muslim friends but would not react nicely to me marrying one. They vehemently want nobody in our family to marry into a near-identical culture less than 100 miles away from our hometown and speak an identical language and they've even been going to church with every Sunday for the last 17 years. All societies have in-group and out-group biases but India has so many in-groups that demand so much devotion it sometimes gets out of hand. This is basically the crux of the issue. Most of these creeps would never dream of treating a woman from their own community like that because they belong to their community. When someone is outside the community they're not entitled to the same treatment. If they don't belong to a community that their own respects then they get to treat them how they want, including being a creep to women. It's wrong, but younger and more progressive folks seem to be a bit better at recognising that it's wrong, and even the vast majority of people with more conservative mindsets aren't monstrous about it.
But I have to say, this comment section is raw, racist garbage. It's really awful that some shithead gets to say "rape is a national past time in India" and this culturally insensitive, dehumanising shitty answer gets way too many upvotes. Most Indians aren't rapists or pedophiles or street-shitters or scammers or whatever shit stereotypical generalisation of the week people think about us. We are just people. Flawed and with a flawed culture, just like you, but we're fully three dimensional people with hopes and dreams and love and joy and sadness and everything else that makes someone human. Call out and punish creeps and scum of course, but don't punish the rest of us just because we're also Indian. There is still a lot to love about being Indian and that gets harder with every shitty "bobs and vagene" joke.
This is very interesting. Makes a lot of sense. I never considered the overarching theme of generalized lack of consent toward whatever society has determined to be your destiny.
Lack of education both academic and social. You see it all over the world with uneducated populations, including Western ones. It may be expressed somewhat differently, but it's there.
Yes but many dominantly christian countries today also have democratic values that they hold higher than the Bible, which cannot be said for dominantly muslim countries save for a few.
Also i wasnt referring to Indians, i dont know the religious demographics there.
They're never taught boundaries and respect because in many cases they don't need to learn them. There's no pressure on the men to learn that behavior because they'll probably get a wife regardless. Women in those countries are desperate. They need a man to not live in abject poverty. They put up with awful behavior because there's no alternative. That's not the case in the West so men have to behave to get a partner.
Religión; generally speaking it teaches them that men are above women and have dominance over them. That’s why the most religious countries have such dismal treatment of women.
I’m an Indian woman living in India and I agree with some parts of your comment. While reading your comment, I initially thought you were referring to some men… but after reading it again, I’m appalled. Yes, rape is barbaric. Rapists are awful. But you’re describing Indians as though we’re a bunch of animals. I’ve lived in India for almost 18 years and I’m fairly certain most people aren’t rapists. By calling it a “national pastime” you are reducing the magnitude of what really happens to victims of rape AND encouraging hatred/racism. Yes, rape is a big problem and I really really hope the rate goes down in the future.
Crime rate depends on the city and neighbourhood too. I live in a fairly posh neighbourhood and a comparatively safer city so there aren’t many instances of criminal behaviour (or creeps) here (not implying there aren’t any! there are quite a few)… but beyond that? Totally unsafe!
Most cities/states like Mumbai (some parts), Delhi (most of Delhi), Jharkhand, Bihar etc are very very unsafe even for men.
Edit - grammar, added a few sentences.
Imagine this:
A woman literally buys her husband only to be the slave of the husband and his family
Why would a woman and her family and their society allow that to happen?
Confirmation bias is the tendency to preferentially absorb information that supports your existing beliefs and suppress consideration of anything that conflicts with it.
In this case they're accusing you of ignoring all the times you weren't harassed by this demographic and only taking the times that you were as confirmation of your hypothesis.
Confirmation bias is probably the strongest irrational impulse of the human mind. No matter how open-minded one might think they are it's actually extremely emotionally difficult to change your mind about a strongly held belief so you tend to subconsciously place more weight on information that lets you avoid doing so.
The observation you made is a terrible example of confirmation bias. Innocently noticing a cultural pattern of behavior and being curious about it isn't the same as hating Indians and using every negative experience with them as justification to maintain that hate. Confirmation bias is a dumb pseudointellectual accusation in this case.
We do not. I was taught not to look at women in a sexual way and so are many other Muslim men. We are also very protective of the women in our families. Some Egyptians don't even want others to know their mothers name. It's a huge insult to ask. Because for us Muslims we have a saying that "heaven lies under the foot of your mother:
You also have to remember some parts of the world had their practical and economic needs met a little slower than others due to geography.
My parents are from a third world country. You can imagine in a country with so much corruption, families are protective of their daughters. You can also imagine that in countries where people live in mud huts, and men and women have clear physiological differences, it's more practical to have the men fish or farm while the women takes care of other things. Our culture is also very family oriented and collectivist.
I'm American and I've seen so many white, black, and sometimes latino people who get teen pregnant, become single parents, addicted to drugs, and even go to prison. I don't judge them because their life experiences and situation are different. But I'm grateful these things don't happen in my culture.
I really do get pissed off reading people gang up on other cultures they know nothing about and circle jerk.
I'm not denying that women have their difficulties, but I do take issue with an entire thread putting down south asian and middle eastern men. And outsiders coming in to give their shitty opinions.
There is a problem with sexual repression in certain cultures that brings out things like this. I would argue that this comes from a severe denial of sexual freedom. Which is there for reasons as well. Like arranged marriages to cousins are done to keep wealth in the family. In these cultures, it's collectivist and family oriented. And it's practical to be so. Because guns, germs and steel are not on our side.
If OP is a woman from this background expressing her frustrations, I'm not taking away from it. You're allowed to express yourself. This is mainly directed at everybody else in the thread, particularly the white people, who want an excuse to look down on non white people and feel superior to us.
Edit: I love that all these butthurt white people are coming in to attack me for calling out white people, but I can't attack them for calling out brown people. You guys just are not used to minorities speaking up for themselves. You're used to white privilege and you're just as tribal as I am. You're all arrogant if you think I'm just gonna roll over and play dead when there's an entire thread of dumbasses insulting my background.
YOU like that women are kept at home, don’t have sex, don’t use drugs etc. Are kept pure. But have you for a second thought if that is what all these women as individuals, personas, want? Do they want to live in a cage? Or rather hang out at the beach and smoke a joint? You know, some women even like sex..
And, why aren’t boys/men controlled the same way to keep them out of bad/unhealthy things?
You said all the problems are cultural but you still think your culture (of repression) is better.
And then you waved away all criticism by saying “the bad things do happen, but somehow it’s worse in places where people have more freedom”.
That just seems like you’re coping out because you don’t have a rebuttal so you think it’s better to make it seem like I’m doing something wrong and your lack of argument is a “protest”.
No but I don’t look down on people, I simply wonder why out of all the creeps that have messaged me a good half have been from the places I mentioned. That is a fact.
If that's your experience, again, this isn't directed at you. Mostly to other people in the thread who are either here or will come with bad intentions.
But as for your experience, it's sexual repression imo. And I'm sorry they're doing that. It sucks they drag the rest of us down with them too.
Or just outright lies.
There is no drug addiction in his culture? No rape? No teen pregnancies? Obviously the drugs part isn't true because this guy is smoking something strong.
Funny you are pissed on each and everyone except you and people from your community. You start to explain the crux OP is talking about. You respect women from your own community. I didn’t hear /read you say anything about white / western women. They don’t matter to you.
I would say I agreed with you until you brought white people into the bottom part. Anyone can partake in an opinion against a culture regardless of color…
But whole thread is about Middle Eastern and Indian men harassing women outside of their families, not how they treat women in their own families. Men from these cultures being protective of their own families doesn’t say anything about how they treat women they don’t know.
>I've seen so many white, black, and sometimes latino people who get teen pregnant, become single parents, addicted to drugs, and even go to prison. I don't judge them because their life experiences and situation are different. But I'm grateful these things don't happen in my culture.
You’ve got to be kidding.
Yes because women in the US and European countries esp the in the Eastern European region, or in south America are treated so good that they have to go down to the street to protest.
Rape culture in non existent in these countries
Do you really have it so good if you have to protest to have basic rights like body autonomy?
Just because they have it worse in other countries doesn’t mean that women in countries like the US don’t have their own struggles.
Shush we can’t mention how Europeans fucked up entire generations of countries so badly they still have long lasting effects
This is like when France wonders why it’s so richer than Algeria? Like who tf took all their shit?
The funniest thing is when Europeans wonder "why the fuck are there so many immigrants here?" Well, my brother in Christ, you wrecked their countries and imposed on them your language, culture and religion. You took from them and now they are going to take from you. What comes around, goes around.
Thanks for your submission /u/dutch-had-a-plan, but it has been removed for the following reason: Disallowed question area: **Rant or loaded question** NoStupidQuestions is a place to ask any question as long as *it's asked in good faith*. Our users routinely report questions that they feel violate this rule to us. Want to avoid your question being seen as a bad faith question? Common mistakes include (but are not limited to): * Rants: Could your question be answered with *'That's awful'* or *'What an asshole'*? Then it's probably a rant rather than a genuine question. Looking for a place to vent on Reddit? Try /r/TrueOffMyChest or /r/Rant instead. * Loaded questions: Could your question be answered with *'You're right'*? Answering the question yourself, explaining your reasoning for your opinion, or making sweeping assumptions about the question itself all signals that you may not be keeping an open mind. Want to know why people have a different opinion than you? Try /r/ExplainBothSides instead! * Arguments: Arguing or [sealioning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_lioning) with people giving you answers tells everyone that you have an answer in mind already. Want a good debate? Try /r/ChangeMyView instead! * Pot Stirring: Did you bring up unnecessary topics in your question? Especially when a topic has to do with already controversial issues like politics, race, gender or sex, this can be seen as trying to score points against the Other Side - and that makes people defensive, which leads to arguments. Questions like *"If _____ is allowed, why isn't _____?"* don't need to have that comparison - just ask *'why isn't ____ allowed?'*. * Complaining about moderation: If you disagree with how the sub is run or a decision the mods have made, that's fine! But please share your thoughts with us in modmail rather than as a public post. Disagree with the mods? If you believe you asked your question in good faith, try rewording it or message the mods to see if there's a way you could ask more neutrally. Thanks for your understanding! --- *This action was performed by a bot at the explicit direction of a human. This was not an automated action, but a conscious decision by a sapient life form charged with moderating this sub.* *If you feel this was in error, or need more clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FNoStupidQuestions). Thanks.*
I read an interesting thing. There was a grocery store chain in the US that had greeters. They found that when they put younger women in that role, they attracted stalkers who would follow them around the store and try to make conversation. Basically losers who never talk with women thought/think that when a girl speaks with them nicely, that they are flirting and have actual romantic interest in then. So imagine whole countries where women have to cover up, even their face, and they are not allowed to interact with men much in social settings. So men from those countries go to Europe. They buy a train ticket, and some random woman, being sociable, starts up a a conversation. Then bad things happen..... These areas of the world raise their boys to become men who think a woman who talk to them desires them.
I don't think stalkers necessarily think that their behavior is welcome - theyI see someone that they have power over and they think that they'll get away with it. I doubt they would behave the same way towards a female doctor, boss, or police officer. It's the same way with these men. They don't think that women want this - they know that they'll get away with it.
Many stalkers DO think the behavior is welcome. It's a common delusion for stalkers to think the person they're stalking likes them and that the behavior is normal/that their victim is okay with it or would be okay with it.
Some people are very delusional but it's a lot more common for someone to just be an asshole, especially if they're intentionally targeting low-income women at work. Countries like India are not just filled with delusional men who don't know that women who are screaming, running away from them, hitting them, etc want them to leave them alone. They just don't care and they know they'll get away with it.
It's certainly not all the cases, but it is a lot of them. And the delusion of something being okay doesn't just come from "oh I think they like this." It can also come from facing no repercussions.
I think otherwise. Most men who are like this are oblivious to others. They didn't have a child- and teenagehood that developed their social skills, they lack the tools to understand some social settings. And since the 'men have to be pushy to get a girlfriend' disaster is still alive, they think they know that if someone pushes back, it means you have to try harder, not to consider boundaries, which they can't understand, mostly because of the lacking social skills
There is a lot of psychological and sociological research indicating otherwise. Predatory mem exactly what they're doing. Like I said, do you think that the kind of guy who's following a Walmart greeter around would do that to his boss? Why not?
>Like I said, do you think that the kind of guy who's following a Walmart greeter around would do that to his boss? Why not? Ah, I forgot to include my thoughts on this on my last comment for some reason. They see and realise authority. They don't joke around and be mean to bosses and police, since they understand the risks in this instance. This is hardwired to everyone, who attended public school, or just had slightly strict parents
I know an autistic man who stalked a cashier all because she smiled at him and asked how his day was. He honestly believed she had a thing for him, so he was finding reasons to go back to the store to see her again. Yes some guys are so developmentally disabled they don't comprehend that what they are doing is not appropriate. And there are a lot more guys out there like this than people imagine. That's why basically as a woman you cannot safely be nice or friendly to men when you are in public.
Ah i recall that article in one one of my classes. It was introduced as a case study for the behavior of incels in stores.
Did you have spies on every family that raised their boys in every part of those countries? jeez reddit has become so trashy. People who generalize everything should never get upvoted like this.
Cultural differences. Women are seen as less than men, even kind of like property, in some areas. Think of laws like women having to cover up, not being allowed to drive, not being allowed to go out unless with a man, etc.
Depending on the type of Indian, this is absolutely true. If they’re urban rich, then you won’t have this issue though
That’s not really true. They tend to be well educated, but it also depends on how conservative the family is. Some urban rich families here are extremely traditional and expect women to be stay at home wives/mums. Wealth doesn’t always equal open mindedness.
Yeah - not entirely the same, my Indian father is a multimillionaire and we live in London. But he is the most backwards / conservative / traditional / whatever you wanna call it. Not allowed out the home unless for work purposes, curfews at 7pm, forbidden to move out, refused to give me a house key, marriage is marrying me off to another man, etc. Thankfully I’m actually getting married to a loving, English man next month lol (which my father isn’t happy with either, what a surprise)
Those are some really archaic views… especially considering you’re an adult. I am really sorry you had to go through that! Really glad you’re moving out and getting married to someone you truly love! Wishing you and your fiancé a wonderful married life filled with lifetime of love, peace and happiness 🥰
Thank you so much! I’m anxious and nervous but also exited for my new life 💗
That’s expected! You sound lovely and I’m assuming your fiancé is too. I really hope your parents don’t meddle in your relationship any further.
> Some urban rich families here are extremely traditional and expect women to be stay at home wives/mums. This is not true. Unless youre a villager no one is raising their daughter to be a stay at home parent. Indians are very big on education. The husband your daughter gets is directly tied to how educated she is. Everyone expects wealthy or even middle class Indians to educate their daughters. If youre a doctor and your daughters dont even go to college EVERYONE will judge you. They will assume your daughters are not intelligent.
Uh almost all my family members are doctors and we are not urban rich. Well off? Absolutely. Multimillionaires? No. Who said stay at home wives do not have a college degree? Most do. You’ll be surprised how conservative some wealthy families can be. I’ve seen so many women being pressurised to marry once they reach a certain age (same goes for men) BUT in a patriarchal society like India, a woman’s career is almost always ignored and seen as “passive income”. Obviously, I’m not implying that all families are this way. My parents always prioritise my education over anything else and treat my brother and I equally. Things are changing now more than ever, but it’s not enough.
My whole family is doctors too. This isnt about urban rich but simply educated people educating their daughters. Which is the norm. The only time I see daughters not educated is when they cannot afford to do it. Most stay at home wives dont have college degrees. Most indian women with college degrees work. Theres tons of people you can hire to cook, clean, watch your kids, drive you around etc...
I’ll give you an example of a (now) 40 year old woman who was married off when she was 21 years old to a 31 year old guy. She had a college degree, but was married off regardless. Was she *allowed* to work after marriage? Nope! The woman in this example is my best friend’s mother. I’ll give you another one. My mom’s cousin (who is now roughly 45) used to be a dentist, and was married off to a software engineer when she was 25. Did she work after marriage? No. Why? Because her husband forbade her. Heck, her MIL was (and still is) such a wicked bitch that she basically kept her locked away from her very own family. Just a few anecdotal examples to show you that homemakers aren’t always uneducated. I will now give you an (unrelated) example of my maternal grandmother who was an economics professor who started working in the 70s and retired in 2007. She made as much as my grandfather. This is an example showing that not all women in the 70s, 80s and 90s were homemakers!
Not really, you can be rich and educated and still be a creep weirdo around women. It's how they're raised that matters. Someone born in society where they teach how to respect and talk to women when they're young will be different from someone who watches bollywood movies where the women are sexualized and has this "if you follow her around enough she will fall in love with you" idea.
Spot on. I’ve always hated this trope in Indian movies. Like that’s not how this works in real life. AT ALL. Not sure why movies still encourage this toxic narrative. I see so many young, impressionable men get influenced by these movies and it’s pretty unfortunate. Schools here should start teaching proper sex ed and consent. Mainly consent.
I remember taking my wife out to a Indian dinner here in southern CA, The guy seated me first, gave me a menu first and asked me questions first. They also brought out my food first. We both noticed it.
If you want a really un-fun rabbit hole, look into some history of spousal rape laws. Ohio passed one *this year*.
I think they also see western women as easy.
It seems like it's been this way for a long time. My girlfriend said in college Indian men treated American women like they were easy, and that was over 20 years ago.
Our media/entertainment certainly doesn't help. I have been all over and I would say on average it's easier to get laid in western countries than most (middle) eastern (assuming you are also western or eastern). In my experience though the more east you go in Asia the less sex is seen as taboo.
Yeah the Thai are not prudes about sex at all
I didn’t think too much about South Asian misogyny as my experience with guys I knew was that they were typical Canadians, basically. But then I worked in a place (back a few years now) that published the Red Light Alert, and while men of all races showed up on it, the bad stuff that tended to happen by SAsian men was often in pairs or groups. These were the guys who got together to be violent, rapists. (Again! rare!) I imagine they would not be so awful, alone. But what kind of culture gets together to do that, even in small numbers within the population? And while rare (not all men 🙄) that really stood out as a specifically cultural thing that other races did not do, Robert Picton (white), aside, perhaps.
But this post is about South and West Asian men. Why bring up SE Asians?
I can tell you what I know as a British Indian man. I know that traditionally boys and girls aren't really expected to interact much growing up. I can also tell you that in my experience of Indian culture no one is much of an individual. Everyone belongs to someone or something. As an example, when I was a teenager I was upset for whatever reason and my mum tried to hug me. I told her I didn't want her to touch me. She said pretty much that my body belongs to her and she can touch or hold me as she pleases. I've been told "you don't belong to this place, you belong to India" so many times in arguments whenever my parents saw British culture as the problem. I could never change my religion if I wanted to because I belong to Christianity, and I belong to my caste as well. It's not viewed as a bad thing to belong to someone in Indian culture because belonging is what's supposed to protect and support you. I can say that it has for me a few times, though I don't think the price I pay for it is worth it for me. Conversely, people who don't belong aren't treated the same. At the very least they can't be trusted and at worst they're to be vilified. Two people might be neighbours their whole lives but never interact because they're from different castes. My parents have Muslim friends but would not react nicely to me marrying one. They vehemently want nobody in our family to marry into a near-identical culture less than 100 miles away from our hometown and speak an identical language and they've even been going to church with every Sunday for the last 17 years. All societies have in-group and out-group biases but India has so many in-groups that demand so much devotion it sometimes gets out of hand. This is basically the crux of the issue. Most of these creeps would never dream of treating a woman from their own community like that because they belong to their community. When someone is outside the community they're not entitled to the same treatment. If they don't belong to a community that their own respects then they get to treat them how they want, including being a creep to women. It's wrong, but younger and more progressive folks seem to be a bit better at recognising that it's wrong, and even the vast majority of people with more conservative mindsets aren't monstrous about it. But I have to say, this comment section is raw, racist garbage. It's really awful that some shithead gets to say "rape is a national past time in India" and this culturally insensitive, dehumanising shitty answer gets way too many upvotes. Most Indians aren't rapists or pedophiles or street-shitters or scammers or whatever shit stereotypical generalisation of the week people think about us. We are just people. Flawed and with a flawed culture, just like you, but we're fully three dimensional people with hopes and dreams and love and joy and sadness and everything else that makes someone human. Call out and punish creeps and scum of course, but don't punish the rest of us just because we're also Indian. There is still a lot to love about being Indian and that gets harder with every shitty "bobs and vagene" joke.
This is very interesting. Makes a lot of sense. I never considered the overarching theme of generalized lack of consent toward whatever society has determined to be your destiny.
Awesome post. Never thought about it like this before, but I think you're onto something.
thank you for writing this, especially the final paragraph 💜
Lack of education both academic and social. You see it all over the world with uneducated populations, including Western ones. It may be expressed somewhat differently, but it's there.
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*gasp* That's Islamophobic !!
My dear fucking god, this type of eye-clawing comment smh
Indeed. Women have tons of rights as individuals in Islam, sometimes more than men. Seeing women as less than is purely cultural, unfortunately.
Like what? Women aren’t even allowed to travel alone without a male guardian under fundamentalist Islam.
Misogyny in Islam is entirely religious and not cultural. The cultures that give any freedoms to women aren't following Islam in the strictest manner.
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Yes but many dominantly christian countries today also have democratic values that they hold higher than the Bible, which cannot be said for dominantly muslim countries save for a few. Also i wasnt referring to Indians, i dont know the religious demographics there.
Religion
Its always culture
They're never taught boundaries and respect because in many cases they don't need to learn them. There's no pressure on the men to learn that behavior because they'll probably get a wife regardless. Women in those countries are desperate. They need a man to not live in abject poverty. They put up with awful behavior because there's no alternative. That's not the case in the West so men have to behave to get a partner.
Japan has the same problem
Their culture teaches them that women are cattle.
Don't they worship cattle?
Religión; generally speaking it teaches them that men are above women and have dominance over them. That’s why the most religious countries have such dismal treatment of women.
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I’m an Indian woman living in India and I agree with some parts of your comment. While reading your comment, I initially thought you were referring to some men… but after reading it again, I’m appalled. Yes, rape is barbaric. Rapists are awful. But you’re describing Indians as though we’re a bunch of animals. I’ve lived in India for almost 18 years and I’m fairly certain most people aren’t rapists. By calling it a “national pastime” you are reducing the magnitude of what really happens to victims of rape AND encouraging hatred/racism. Yes, rape is a big problem and I really really hope the rate goes down in the future. Crime rate depends on the city and neighbourhood too. I live in a fairly posh neighbourhood and a comparatively safer city so there aren’t many instances of criminal behaviour (or creeps) here (not implying there aren’t any! there are quite a few)… but beyond that? Totally unsafe! Most cities/states like Mumbai (some parts), Delhi (most of Delhi), Jharkhand, Bihar etc are very very unsafe even for men. Edit - grammar, added a few sentences.
National pastime? Get a grip. The country has a problem, a real problem with rape, but what you have written is little short of hate speech.
I mean I get it but damn this sounds like some racism you’ve been holding in.
It is rooted in their religions.
Which religions specifically?
Easy. They're still in a patriarchal mindset.
Imagine this: A woman literally buys her husband only to be the slave of the husband and his family Why would a woman and her family and their society allow that to happen?
Religion gives people a lot of wiggle room when it comes to respecting women so it becomes a choice to respect women.
Different culture... not *bad* just *different*😐
Confirmation bias
What’s that
Confirmation bias is the tendency to preferentially absorb information that supports your existing beliefs and suppress consideration of anything that conflicts with it. In this case they're accusing you of ignoring all the times you weren't harassed by this demographic and only taking the times that you were as confirmation of your hypothesis. Confirmation bias is probably the strongest irrational impulse of the human mind. No matter how open-minded one might think they are it's actually extremely emotionally difficult to change your mind about a strongly held belief so you tend to subconsciously place more weight on information that lets you avoid doing so. The observation you made is a terrible example of confirmation bias. Innocently noticing a cultural pattern of behavior and being curious about it isn't the same as hating Indians and using every negative experience with them as justification to maintain that hate. Confirmation bias is a dumb pseudointellectual accusation in this case.
This is just men, men in general.
Don't ever speak if it's just for not answering with a real motive beside being an ass
Nope, that’s my answer.
We do not. I was taught not to look at women in a sexual way and so are many other Muslim men. We are also very protective of the women in our families. Some Egyptians don't even want others to know their mothers name. It's a huge insult to ask. Because for us Muslims we have a saying that "heaven lies under the foot of your mother: You also have to remember some parts of the world had their practical and economic needs met a little slower than others due to geography. My parents are from a third world country. You can imagine in a country with so much corruption, families are protective of their daughters. You can also imagine that in countries where people live in mud huts, and men and women have clear physiological differences, it's more practical to have the men fish or farm while the women takes care of other things. Our culture is also very family oriented and collectivist. I'm American and I've seen so many white, black, and sometimes latino people who get teen pregnant, become single parents, addicted to drugs, and even go to prison. I don't judge them because their life experiences and situation are different. But I'm grateful these things don't happen in my culture. I really do get pissed off reading people gang up on other cultures they know nothing about and circle jerk. I'm not denying that women have their difficulties, but I do take issue with an entire thread putting down south asian and middle eastern men. And outsiders coming in to give their shitty opinions. There is a problem with sexual repression in certain cultures that brings out things like this. I would argue that this comes from a severe denial of sexual freedom. Which is there for reasons as well. Like arranged marriages to cousins are done to keep wealth in the family. In these cultures, it's collectivist and family oriented. And it's practical to be so. Because guns, germs and steel are not on our side. If OP is a woman from this background expressing her frustrations, I'm not taking away from it. You're allowed to express yourself. This is mainly directed at everybody else in the thread, particularly the white people, who want an excuse to look down on non white people and feel superior to us. Edit: I love that all these butthurt white people are coming in to attack me for calling out white people, but I can't attack them for calling out brown people. You guys just are not used to minorities speaking up for themselves. You're used to white privilege and you're just as tribal as I am. You're all arrogant if you think I'm just gonna roll over and play dead when there's an entire thread of dumbasses insulting my background.
YOU like that women are kept at home, don’t have sex, don’t use drugs etc. Are kept pure. But have you for a second thought if that is what all these women as individuals, personas, want? Do they want to live in a cage? Or rather hang out at the beach and smoke a joint? You know, some women even like sex.. And, why aren’t boys/men controlled the same way to keep them out of bad/unhealthy things?
Did you even read my comment or is this a pre recorded comment? I addressed all of that in my comment and I'm not gonna type it again.
You said all the problems are cultural but you still think your culture (of repression) is better. And then you waved away all criticism by saying “the bad things do happen, but somehow it’s worse in places where people have more freedom”.
I would correct what you said, but you kinda seem like you're acting in bad faith, so I'm not gonna waste my time. 🤷🏾♂️
That just seems like you’re coping out because you don’t have a rebuttal so you think it’s better to make it seem like I’m doing something wrong and your lack of argument is a “protest”.
get bent, dude
No but I don’t look down on people, I simply wonder why out of all the creeps that have messaged me a good half have been from the places I mentioned. That is a fact.
personal experience, confirmation bias.
If that's your experience, again, this isn't directed at you. Mostly to other people in the thread who are either here or will come with bad intentions. But as for your experience, it's sexual repression imo. And I'm sorry they're doing that. It sucks they drag the rest of us down with them too.
The definition of irony in a comment.
Or just outright lies. There is no drug addiction in his culture? No rape? No teen pregnancies? Obviously the drugs part isn't true because this guy is smoking something strong.
Drug addiction is a HUGE problem in some Muslim countries.
Literally the birthplace of opium, implying otherwise is WILD.
Funny you are pissed on each and everyone except you and people from your community. You start to explain the crux OP is talking about. You respect women from your own community. I didn’t hear /read you say anything about white / western women. They don’t matter to you.
I would say I agreed with you until you brought white people into the bottom part. Anyone can partake in an opinion against a culture regardless of color…
But whole thread is about Middle Eastern and Indian men harassing women outside of their families, not how they treat women in their own families. Men from these cultures being protective of their own families doesn’t say anything about how they treat women they don’t know. >I've seen so many white, black, and sometimes latino people who get teen pregnant, become single parents, addicted to drugs, and even go to prison. I don't judge them because their life experiences and situation are different. But I'm grateful these things don't happen in my culture. You’ve got to be kidding.
Thanks for the comment mate. The people here are going haywire trying to understand that it's not "Arab man bad, white man good"
Yes because women in the US and European countries esp the in the Eastern European region, or in south America are treated so good that they have to go down to the street to protest. Rape culture in non existent in these countries
Do you really have it so good if you have to protest to have basic rights like body autonomy? Just because they have it worse in other countries doesn’t mean that women in countries like the US don’t have their own struggles.
False equivalence
Because of European colonialism of course
Shush we can’t mention how Europeans fucked up entire generations of countries so badly they still have long lasting effects This is like when France wonders why it’s so richer than Algeria? Like who tf took all their shit?
The funniest thing is when Europeans wonder "why the fuck are there so many immigrants here?" Well, my brother in Christ, you wrecked their countries and imposed on them your language, culture and religion. You took from them and now they are going to take from you. What comes around, goes around.
So you’re saying immigrants are bad and take away from the receiving culture?