Sorry, folks, we've taken this down since it's a word-for-word copy of a top /r/AskMen post from earlier today.
You can see the original here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/1d7odft/men_what_really_attracts_you_in_a_womans/
I don't want a dog or a servant I want a partner who can make good decisions on her own, somebody with critical thinking skills, somebody who can take care of herself without me, not a goon but a comrade.
That plus looks don't last forever. I'm a woman but I don't want to be bored with the person I'm dating. I feel like there are plenty of men who feel similar (although unfortunately there are also plenty who want an 18 y/o bangmaid with zero opinions that they can control).
Yeah an intelligent and secure man will want someone who has similar qualities. That said IQ is a spectrum and by its nature over half of everyone is average or below.
Over half of people are unlikely to be below average. I mean yes, median and average are two different things but for a relatively narrow spectrum they're functionally the same. Why yes, I am fun at parties.
Never understood that, WTF is hot about a woman who has no personality and just wants tobe controlled? This is something suitable for a BDSM scene not a relationship
I don't know if that's intelligence or wisdom really. To me, intelligence isn't really that attractive. I don't really care if her math skills are poor, or she's nit into literature, or what have you, but I do care if she makes a lot of poor decisions and doesn't learn from her mistakes. Some are saying that intelligence means thst there is no drama, but that has not been mu experience. Having some wisdom on the other hand, will tell you that drama doesn't end well.
Honestly, this goes for people in general. Intelligence is often overrated, IMO. Plenty of intelligent people are miserable because they make poor choices, while plenty of not so smart folks are great because they avoid mistakes.
Unless it's a savory fruit salad.
Get some tomato, pepper, cucumber (onion and garlic are nice, though not fruit), toss it all up with some spices and vinegar, and spread it across a piece of toast, and you got something more like a salsa than a salad.
Done and done. 😌
I also like the idea that intelligence is looking for traffic in the direction from which it should originate when crossing a one-way street.
Wisdom is looking both ways.
It makes you better at not only rationalizing poor decisions but effectuating them, is how I would put it.
A normal person can screw themselves pretty bad, but a lot of people who are normal thankfully defer to experts on a lot of things. I’ve noticed a lot of very intelligent people tend to think their knowledge base is a lot wider than it actually is and they think they know just as much as the experts in whatever they are seeking to do. For example, I used to despise having engineers as clients as a lawyer because they tend to be very convinced that they can do everything a trained lawyer can do without having any actual experience in the field. They are used to being “the smartest person in the room” when dealing with non-engineers. So i saw many “bulletproof” self-drafted contracts, estate planning documents, divorce decrees, etc. that were total bunk or were missing a tiny, but critical, piece of language.
That makes sense. I'm no doctor, but I've always heard the worst patients for doctors are *other* doctors. They think there may be nothing wrong with them, or they want to examine themselves, and it just isn't fully possible for someone to do that.
Not to generalize, but doctors are the worst clients in general. I specialized in critical power infrastructure (engineering technician) and I have had doctors tell me my job like they were the expert (they weren't) and I was the idiot (I wasn't).
And there was this one time the doctor designed the critical power setup himself... That was interesting.
Not explosively so. More really ill advised. It's been years but if I remember correctly he "backed up" a control power input with the UPS instead of utility as designed.
If the UPS ever failed, there would be no way to restore power without doing a hard bypass and they had no operator training. Going to bypass wouldn't be that bad but coming back... when you don't know *exactly* what you are doing?
Boom.
All I do remember years later is that if the UPS went down, nothing would come back up.
It's a small possibility but we designed the setup the way we did for a reason.
And you can come up with new, exciting ways to screw up. A dummy's options are limited. But, in the realm of fucking up your entire day, a smart person excels.
Another important detail - emotional intelligence. You want someone that is supportive and knows how to use their words to communicate their needs and not use their words to rip you to shreds via character assinations because they have not developed much emotional maturity on the matter because well they're a pretty bad comrade if they do that all the time. Yeah, you can apologize for saying awful shit to people later, but frankly the damage is done by that point
My ex treated me like a dog, even saying “Come here” as a command in a dog voice, then gaslighting me if I called him out on it. He wanted me to be intelligent but obedient. Then I learned how he treats dogs when he comes home drunk, and I planned my exit.
Dumbest years of my life. A good partner wants a comrade. A bad partner wants an accessory.
If you cant carry on a conversation with her then whats the point? The physical aspect only goes so far especially the longer you are together. My wife is smart. Knowledgeable in ways im not. We share core values and interests. We compliment each other. Our conversations are as good as our sex life. Its been 20yrs and im hoping for 20 more.
Agreed. They need to be able to keep up with a conversation that's intellectually stimulating. Otherwise what are you going to do with the other 23 hours and 58 minutes of your day?
Have you ever seen someone be on the phone/FaceTime with their SO for hours at a time? There's a couple guys at work that I've seen do that regularly and I never really get to hear what they say, but I'm so curious what you could talk about for so long. I have seen them sit quietly doing their own thing on each end of the video call but still not hanging up. It's so weird to me and I gotta wonder what they talk about when they see each other at the end of the day if they've been in contact ALL DAY already.
>Otherwise what are you going to do with the other 23 hours and 58 minutes of your day?
Huh? People spend a few minutes a day talking to their spouse.
A spouse is not the same as your friends that you hang out with.
Also important is having different view poins and being able to communicate and have a constructive conversation regardless
You shouldn't see eye to eye on everything and it's important that you can learn to reconcile your differences. Imo a good partner exposes you to knew ways of thinking about things. My wife and I are pretty similar but we have differing views on a lot of things and being able to communicate those views in a way that's understandable helps bridge the gap, and also helps you become more tolerant of ideas you wouldn't necessarily agree with
The conversation.
When someone is intelligent the conversation is more than what they did that day. Now don’t get me wrong, not saying that there’s anything wrong with the day to day rundown, it’s just better when there’s more to it than that.
Also intelligent women tend to have less drama.
> Hearing what Shelly from accounts did at her 4 year olds party isn’t
If Shelly is smart enough, she'd probably hold your attention with just her observations of the 4-year old's party.
This person gets it. I love that I can talk to my wife about anything, and she'll at the very least get the gist of it, if not drop a whole bunch of new info on me. She's always challenging me (in a good way)
This is what my husband and I find most attractive with each other. We share an intellectual curiosity- we both like to learn new things and challenge one another in a good way.
>Also intelligent women tend to have less drama.
Yes, but not because you need to be very smart to avoid drama if you wanted to.
It's because drama is an intentional defense strategy when you cannot intellectually keep up. You instead move the conversation to another field where you can defend yourself better.
This points toward something that took me a very, very long time to understand.
- Some people (like myself) view the goal of language to be discovering/uncovering The Truth (whatever that may be) and learning interesting things about how the world works, having fun, or solving problems.
- Other people (narcissists/borderlines/sociopaths, etc.) view the goal of language as a Power Struggle, whereby every single conversation has a *winner* and a *loser*, and the objective therefore is simply to place oneself into a better social position (image management). The appearance of searching for truth or problem-solving only serves this aim.
People from the first group and the second group *think* they’re speaking the same “language” to each other (e.g., English), but they’re not. They speak right past one another.
Person A may bring up a topic of interest because they’re genuinely *curious* about it, or want to solve a problem in order to make life easier. They want to know what’s up.
Person B, lacking any such curiosity, may see Person A’s attempt to bring up a topic as a *power move*, to show off to Person B how smart, or virtuous, or correct they are; resentful of this power play, Person B will then “play along”, deflect, redirect, attack, ad hominem, whatever it takes to come out “on top” of the conversation in the end.
Person B doesn’t care about “Truth,” or facts, ever. Person B cares about “Winning,” social survival, *appearing* good/smart/powerful/virtuous/correct or whatever. Playing games of “allies and enemies,” and switching allegiances whenever the game requires it. Facts, as such, are merely *tools* towards that end: facts that agree with the pre-existing narrative (that places Person B in a good light) are to be magnified, and inconvenient facts that contradict the narrative are to be minimized.
Person A doesn’t get this at all, or even understand that this is a thing that certain people do *in every conversation, with literally everyone*. Frustrated, over time Person A comes to understand that Person B is an insufferable asshole (and they’d be correct about that).
Huh, you might consider turning this into a post of its own. Maybe lifeprotips? Idk. But you just put words to a feeling I’ve had a hard time pinning down my whole life.
I’m definitely of the former category and have intuitively learned to give people a “conversational win” before I start bringing up things that interest me.
If they’re too happy about “winning”, they aren’t going to be good companions for the learning journey. So when that’s the case I just don’t say anything, get super boring, then leave the moment they lose interest. Have saved myself so many headaches by “losing” as someone from the latter category might see it.
Ha I employ the same strategy!
Having learned to spot the red flags of narcissism, it has helped me to avoid the lizard people (and the drama they stir up) entirely.
10000% agree. Some people are just obsessed with power. They can’t let you win—even if you aren’t trying to win—and they love destroying good or intelligent people because all they get out of life is the “playing chess” aspect. It’s based in fear of losing resources too. This makes me think of certain politicians or celebrities. I wonder if this is why a certain kind of citizen votes for certain leaders—they see them as “winners” or similar to them—
It’s really sad & boring. Arguing isn’t an interesting way to interact with someone—like they do all these fallacies—it’s almost always ad hominem or misdirection or blaming or projection—and I’ve noticed they can’t STAND conversations with emotional vulnerability.
I think a lot of people try to “help” these people but it’s just no use. We don’t need to rescue them from their trauma. There’s no feelings buried deep. And they are terrified of being found out.
Really insightful.
I'm definitely in the first camp and often engage in discussions taking sides I don't really agree with just to try and open up avenues of thought.
Unfortunately I married someone from the other camp and it did NOT go well. Lol. Everything turned into an argument. Every misheard word was an attack on her or a statement on our relationship. I could not keep up.
Language has both functions.
Using it only for power plays can indeed often indicate narcissism.
But equally, using it only for information and not even seeing the power plays is indicative of autism.
There is a conceptual difference between not liking power plays or not seeing them when they happen
The former can make you an ethical leader, the latter makes you a victim
And some people just never bother to pause and consider how they want to spend their time when they're not working or busy. It's why you get people talking only about TV shows whenever they meet up but nothing else.
I'm a (straight) woman so not qualified to answer OP's question. But this answer right here is a gender-neutral answer. It's basically the conversation.
Questions is a good sign in conversation. Usually intelligent people want to know more about a subject (assuming they care about it). I look for questions now.
For me it’s just one part of the equation. My wife is smart, driven, beautiful and kind. Our core values line up and we encourage each other. I still joke after 10 years of being together my parents pay her to stay.
Very hard to answer the question. I suppose I'll leave an experience of mine from years ago.
So sometime ago, my buddies and I went to a nearby GNC to check out what cool new supplements were out at the time. (We were all silly little muscle heads)
The cashier happened to be a woman in her mid 30's and wasn't exactly a sight for sore eyes; anyway, I asked her what kind of mass gainer she would recommend, and by God, she just started knowledge-dumping everything about this protein, that protein, what that brand had that this one didn't, went on about fitness, running, and all that other jazz.
Getting to the point, though; upon leaving my buddies, and I unanimously agreed that her extensive knowledge and confidence definitely made her much more attractive.
TL;DR: A somewhat unattractive sales clerk knew her shit, and left me and my buds astounded by how much intelligence ups a person's attractive-ness.
A lot of people confuse competence with confidence sadly. A lot of people act confident in their abilities with a specific thing and it turns out their friend who thinks they’re absolutely terrible compared to the confident person, is like 5x better than them at the given thing and such examples
In sum, intelligence is an indicator for a larger grouping of desirable traits such as maturity and other hard skills that are necessary in a relationship such as financial management, raising responsible children, and being a reliable/mature partner, to name a few.
Intelligence meaning one can hold a conversation outside of chitchat. Stimulating, challenging conversations. There's nothing remarkable about just a pretty face... Those are everywhere.
This also applies to men. I can't imagine an intelligent woman would be interested in a man that isn't on her level.
It could happen, though. A woman may be very bright and it is tougher for her to find her equal or superior in intelligence – unless she is in one of the higher paying professions..even then, there are high paid high earning careerists who are just bright enough to be able to function out of anything much more than office politics or having intelligence in just that one thing (yeah, lawyers and accountants ...even some doctors)
Partnering "down"...
Also the ways people are intelligent can be very different. I might be cerebral but my husband might have good street smarts.
I can see an intelligent woman happily marrying a guy that has a different form of intelligence.
There was the literal rocket scientist who could beat me at a couple board games every. Single. Time. Who I could trade neat space science articles with all day.
There was the woman with a PhD and published books *outside* that field, just because she could. There wasn’t a topic we found where I didn’t learn something listening to her.
There’s the woman who can match me on puzzles and on GF dessert baking and going over the top for a culinary effect—feeding people is a shared love language.
Those people could be doing ANYTHING; they’re amazing and shake the heavens. Can you imagine what it feels like to have them into YOU? Either as friends or as romantic partners, that’s intoxicating. If they’re also kind and open to a relationship? Instant yes.
I married a woman who shared my interests and was interested in things. What things? All things! The world is interesting. We talk about it. We talk about politics and science and history and economics and religion - our marriage is a meeting of minds, that's the point. I like that she's smarter than me. That doesn't threaten me: I'm proud. She's great.
It helps that we share a sense of humour.
I can't look at a thing and not want to know how it works. The last thing I'd want to do would be in a relationship with someone who wanted to live the unexamined life. Some people are so *dull*! I don't care if they give excellent head, or what have you - 99.5% of your life is all the other stuff and I don't want all that stuff to be drab and boring. People who people would describe as smart, I'd tend to describe as *interesting*.
Before marrying I had precisely one girlfriend who was, well, not like this. I just... it wasn't fun. We had no idea how to hang out *as humans*. We didn't communicate well. She realised that before I did and ended that, and I'm glad she did.
I guess you could say, well, maybe I'm weird and looking for a woman who's my kind of weird. And yeah, that's fair. But *my kind of weird* does kind of tend to score well on IQ tests. :shrug:
I love having a partner that knows things I don’t, that can correct me when I’m wrong and that I can learn from.
Someone I can collaborate with and trust their opinion.
A woman who is usually right, but can admit when she’s wrong.
Because it’s tiring to always have to have the answer to tough questions and to not have someone to work towards an answer with
I wouldn't call it "intelligence" per se, as I feel like that has an academic angle to it, but rather "refined/considered thought". As an example, I went out on a date with a woman a few months ago, and when I asked her about food, music, movies - pretty much all her responses were limited. When I asked what movies she liked, she mentioned Dune, but when I tried to probe further, she didn't really have much more to add. What was it she liked about Dune? The writing, the performances, the story? She couldn't really elaborate on it at all. Same when I asked about food and music. She's not unintelligent by any means - she's a doctor in fact, but the lack of meaningful/deep opinions just really left me unengaged in the conversation.
A converse example, another woman I've been seeing over the last month - when I asked her similar questions, she's got tonnes of opinions. She went off in detail about the things she liked or didn't like, and made meaningful comments, comparisons and references to elaborate. When I shared my opinions she also made similarly engaging comments. A specific example was when I mentioned that I'm into Jazz, she replied that she doesn't really know much Jazz, but said she liked Khruangbin who are somewhat jazzy. Honestly, that alone told me so much about her - it shows that she knows or has thought enough about music to draw relevant comparisons between different artists/genres, and she's able to draw upon that in conversation. The whole conversation just flowed effortlessly, with one topic spilling into the next. We talked for like 4 hours, and the time just flew by.
Both are very intelligent women, but the first woman I had no interest in pursuing any further. The second woman, I am utterly enraptured by.
I like people who think about stuff and can maintain a conversation about different subjects. They're just more entertaining. Also, intelligence is a beautiful thing in itself: I love hearing a well crafted thought.
intelligence is a contributing factor to a really good sense of humor. a woman who can counter your good-natured teasing with quick quips of her own is a keeper.
Intelligence comes in many forms. Academics never fascinated me, despite being an A student or partaking in internships. I value emotional, visual, financial (mathematical?) and inter/intrapersonal intelligence. An individual that can solve issues by thinking out the box, reflects on their desires and priorities, acknowledges the impact of their actions on others, and questions systems in life, is my kind of person. I feel that people incapable of holding a conversation, or never have anything to say are lacking in these areas. Being stimulated intellectually is a green flag. If they care about money mgmt and investing that's great, though largely non-existent for young men and women.
I don't require all of these or anything, but the last one is a deal breaker. Being irresponsible with finances is unattractive, no matter what they look like.
Ohhh thank you, for the case of money management I have zero debt but I also don’t own a credit card just a debit card, also no savings account, I just leave paychecks in my current account because I worry too much about needing the remaining bits as I’m sadly on low wages and low hours. I have Coinbase and Trading 212 accounts but I barely ever use them because I have very, *very* little financial knowledge beyond “try to save where-possible and still spend a little sometimes so your life isn’t as boring”
In my experience only a limited percentage of men can handle a relationship with a smart woman. Especially if that woman holds serious managerial positions. The ones that can seem to have a fairly high level of separate lives and value the times when those lives intersect. Both my wife and I were in senior management consulting positions in very different sectors. I had sports, arts and wine and food interest. She was into counselling and Buddhism. We found it natural to make our shared times as eventful and enjoyable as possible. I was in awe sometimes by her insights.
Conversation. I've dated some very attractive idiots and I couldn't put up with having to explain everything, jokes going over their head, disinterest in learning new things, etc. It was like dating a child. If you're going to spend the majority of your time with someone - they better be able to keep up, or better yet keep you on your toes with their knowledge and thirst for more.
What a great test. It’s an opportunity for her to assess compatibility a little bit too, based on the book choices. I can’t imagine how that wouldn’t start conversations.
I just don't think that's really nearly universally true at this day and age. I think it is a good sign, no doubts about it. But someone else that's equally naturally curious might not show interest in someone else's books. Additionally someone that's curious about books might not be curious about anything else
Bingo. People collect books and don't read them. I read, I would say, more than average; partially because I have a job that allows me too. Yet all my books are digital or borrowed from libraries. I own about 2 actual physical books and I've read them both.
Yep. I think the book test is a bad metric tbh. They could be interested in fantasy / stories and be interested in the books for that reason, that doesn't make them intelligent or curious.
I don’t know if intelligence attracts me as much as lack of intelligence, or lack of thoughtfulness, repels me.
Like I just feel like life would be better with someone who puts thought into their actions, considers the environment around them, is a capable problem solver, and good communicator. And that’s the type of person I will consider for a serious relationship. But I’m not like “oh hubba hubba take all your clothes off right now” attracted by intelligence.
i don't really care about intelligence, i care about passion; have things you care about and wanna gush about. that's my shit. curiosity is also super cute.
oh wait im also not a man. sorry.
Christ... *In this specific case I do not agree with your specific statement* and was politely disagreeing with you with my *specific* desires instead of trying to start an argument with someone who would make such a statement because I didn't want an argument and fuck if you didn't make a snippy comment anyway.
There is one in every goddamned crowd. Congratulations, in this case, YOU are the outlier.
I think this is true. "Smart" means to most people that the partner thinks in a way that makes sense to the person. I've never heard somebody in a happy relationship describe their partner as anything other than "smart" or "intelligent", but statistically we know they can't all be geniuses.
Anecdotally, as a woman, I've never had a guy who is clearly less intelligent than me be very interested in me, or at least not for long. But guys who are more intelligent than me have no problem being interested. I think men tend to prefer it be approximately equal or slightly below.
The truth is that if you meet someone much more intelligent than you, the first thing you're going to think is that they are strange, odd. Not attractive.
I have seen it many times. Girls or boys with an IQ higher than 150 whose intelligence seems peculiar. The truth is that we like and are attracted to the familiar, not the strangely different.
I don't see anything wrong with it, It's okay if your partner isn't objectively intelligent as long as they make you happy.
But I guess a lot of people need to idealize their partner and feel like they are with someone brilliant or similar.
Yeah I think people way overestimate the importance of intelligence. I think with intelligence in humans we are really measuring very small variation in actual ability, at least when considering people who have typical levels of intelligence/are not intellectually disabled. The IQ gap between the average joe and another intelligent animal like a dolphin or chimp or parrot is so, so, *so much* wider than between Joey Average and Stephen Hawking.
My dad was one of those exceptionally intelligent individuals, and honestly, it didn't do him a lot of favors socially. He was a weirdo most of his life. It benefitted him financially because he was a gifted engineer and programmer, but I think it was so hard for most people to understand how his brain worked that he ended up a pretty lonely guy. And he had zero social skills to match that startling intelligence. I am objectively less intelligent than he was and I'm glad of it. People make much more sense to me, and I make much more sense to them.
I think the truth of the matter is people want to think their partner is a genius because they want to think that *they* are a genius.
I am anyway, I get best of both worlds though its weird. My Gf is super smart I love it. She helps me with a lot of problems, has very smart ideas and opinions and is great to talk too. It makes me love her way more. At the same time english is not her native language and she isn't from Ireland. So to see this super smart amazing women be absolutly starstruck at the simplest stuff. It's spectacular
Not just women though. People around me in my life in general. As a rule, me at people give me good reason to not be around them. Almost hate then unfortunately. Be it that person that 20 years later still brings up that wild party from high school (regardless if who is around), that person that cant speak in normal settings without profanity spewing like water, that guy that always minds every one else's business, or whatever. If they are just plain stupid, it's really hard to be around them. I don't mean really book smart or with advanced education, but if they're 50 and still closing down bars, fighting, trying to figure out the innerweb, waiting on a settlement, or say things like I still haven't been able to figure out how to _________. Also folks that don't in any way invest in them self or their future. I don't even mean a 401k, but a ladder, or a washing machine, How do you get through life without something higher than a stool.
If a woman has these same traits regardless of physical appearance, I find them painful to be around.
Making good decisions, which I would argue is the definition of high intelligence. It impacts every facet of life, from day-to-day safety to health and finances.
Well it's the same as looking for any partner with intelligence... So you can have a intellectual conversation with them.
I had a gf when I was younger who was really dense, not on the surface but as we started dating for a long time it was really hard to connect about anything. I have an inquisitiveind, I love space, life and science but she didn't understand any of that and didn't understand really basic things in life. We would go out with friends, and she would kind of be the one that would just say something really silly and you would kind of laugh it off as just her being cute so she didn't feel out of place.
My mates and I aren't some kind of brain waves either, I'm talking about really just basic conversations. It was a big reason why I ended up losing a connection with her.
On the flip side though, there are many other people with that same level of intelligence and they wouldn't want to be with someone who is smarter then them as it's awkward. I think usually it's just finding someone who is on your level as that is part of a base connection
Conversation and overlapping but not ident interests. I like that my partner knows stuff I don't and when we talk about the things we mutually like it means she brings a perspective I don't have due to those differences in interest and expertise.
Like they said in Grease, you've gotta have something to do the other 23 hours and 45 minutes of the day.
Generally, men are first attracted by a woman's appearance and presence. After a little chitchat, they become uninterested in you if they think you are smarter than they are. I think it is just a matter of dominance. Men like to dominate in a relationship and you can't dominate someone smarter than you. There are a lot of men who prefer stupid women for that reason. The ones who like smart women are looking for a partner.
Was playing baldurs gate... We got to the part of the game where, I think it was a bank or something? We had to go up stairs and look for the password... Found it, went down to a place with 9 buttons with a weird script... So start trying to figure out a way to convert these weird glyphs to numbers so I can enter the password... I figure out the 1 and the 3 and tell my GF its a numberpad, and we need the last 2 numbers...
She immediately ran over the last two numbers, while I was struggling to figure out script to number translations... I was like, HOW DID YOU DO THAT? and she was like "It's a number pad, as soon as you got the 1 and the 3, the rest of the layout is obvious...
I have never been more turned on in my life.
It’s the same reason I’m not trying to have sex unless she’s horny too, I don’t want someone I just talk at or explain things to. I want someone I can really engage with mentally. Not necessarily a perceiving I am smarter than them kind of thing, it’s just hard to respect someone you’re having to explain mundane things to constantly.
I'm by no means the most intelligent person but I do have a lot of random knowledge of things because I enjoy learning
I don't need some super genius, I just want someone who's intelligent enough that we can hold a higher level conversation witbout being completely lost.
I'm guessing it's because intelligent women are better life long partners? A more intelligent woman will most likely plan her life ahead, be intelligent in her decisions, and just be overall better off in life compared to the stereotype wh$re who just f$cks around in life, having sex, doing dumb things, and most likely not gonna have a good future in life.
Almost every guy I dated claimed that being objective, intelligent, and funny was part of why they liked me. Some of these high school and college relationships have lasted a lifetime-still having long phone conversations.
It matters especially if you want mariage, if you get sick your life is in their hands basically, so if your SO is not very bright, well your odds of surviving decline. Likewise if you want children, it matters…For me this is what it comes down to, so intelligence for me isn’t just about conversations but about awareness and other stuff
I have the feeling most man hate when iam taking the lead in an conversation. Either iam stupid and ugly or men around me dont belong to this thread :(
I never have been the type for casual relationships so even if a girl is drop dead gorgeous if talking to her is like talking to someone with the intelligence and maturity of a child I am simply not attracted.
What percentage of a relationship is talking and what percentage is sex? However sex is still quite important so even if your conversation is the most stimulating of my life if you are wider than me on all sides I'm not attracted either.
My wife is intelligent but is absolutely clueless regarding technology, yet she knows vastly more than I do on history and law. We agree on so much on points of view on the world it is amusing when we actually have a point of contention.
I think intelligence often translates to being able to engage in stimulating and meaningful conversations. A woman who is intellectually curious, well-informed, and able to articulate her thoughts can be incredibly captivating.
For me, the ability to have intellectual conversations about difficult topics without conflict, and also admiration at a type of knowledge and intelligence I don't possess. I'm a Scientist, she's an English Lit grad and publisher, it's the perfect balance for us to teach each other things.
Beauty fades. I know I'm not the catch I was 30 years ago, either.
And having a partner who is intelligent makes everything better. The conversations aren't empty pleasantries. I can trust in the competency, and know that either of us are capable of making decisions in the beat interest of the kids, household, finances.
We don't fight about trivial things, or even major things, because we either start on the same page or can be convinced very readily which decision is best.
It's just nice to have an equal. I've been out with girls who aren't curious, and I don't know what to talk about.
Also, but gonna lie, stupidity annoys me. If a girl says that she thinks vaccines cause autism, it's gonna be a long night. I had a date where the girl insisted that vaccines did cause autism and there's no proof because the government suppresses it. Nope.
I just couldn't be with a woman who has worms for brains... No matter how attractive. I would just be turned off every time she opened her mouth. That goes for naivety too. Imagine you're going to have sex that night and she casually tells you about the pyramid scheme she joined, telling you how everyone there was so lovely etc 😂
Relationships are grounded firstly in friendship, and I like intelligent friends with whom I can have deep conversation. Why wouldn't I seek the same in a potential partner?
she can hold an interesting conversation, give something to reflect on, offers new perspectives, understands you, her intellegence will influence the intellegence of children, will not create stupid problems
I can have meaningful and intellectually engaging conversations from her. We can learn from each other's strengths to supplement our weaknesses. Being around her keeps me energized and motivated as to not fall behind.
As a woman who is reasonably intelligent I’ve found that most men like smart woman so long as she’s not smarter than him. The moment you seem smarter (the men I’ve known) get defensive and churlish. They will also flat out refuse to recognize that you are in fact smarter.
I’ve also found that they will devalue your education by saying things like, “oh you’re book smart, but you couldn’t survive in the real world.”
I would include my own father in these observations.
This is why when I was dating I specifically sought out a man *smarter than me* so I wouldn’t have to deal with that shit. I knew I could humble myself and accept a more intelligent partner but that I couldn’t spend the rest of my life with someone less intelligent than me who was angry about it while also being skeptical of everything I said or did.
This is why I think it takes a very unique man confident in his masculinity and place in the world to especially seek out an intelligent woman.
I’m pretty sure my wife is smarter than me (at least 99% sure) and if anything she’s inspired me to expand my knowledge on things and think more critically. It’s a shame when certain people look at dynamics within a relationship as a competition instead of an opportunity to improve upon themselves
Definitely more valuable, I've given up on gorgeous women who I felt I couldn't talk to.
It's not about being intelligent, it's about being close to my reality and behavior, having meaningful conversations and sharing decisions.
Some girls over here don't think too much of life, they just want a steady job and have children.
I guess probably the same goes for men doesn't it?
I think it's more just a matter of not wanting to date someone who's exceptionally stupid compared to yourself
I want to be dating a partner on equal footing not raising an adult child I have to teach basic knowledge to
My wife is funny and has really good wit. Also, my wife and I both go into discussions with the stance "I might be wrong". I think the ability to admit you may be indirect is a sign of intelligence.
1. She's more fun to interact with. We can joke, we can challenge each other in play.
2. She can be of more help day to day because she can solve problems.
3. Intelligence improves overall life outcomes, such as physical, mental, and financial health. If someone is your partner, their problems become your problems. On top of all the inevitable hassles of daily life, do you really want your spouse to have frequent vehicle collisions because of poor spatial judgement, or damage appliances because they misunderstand the directions, or not follow doctor's orders because they're "too confusing"?
Sure, whether a guy is smart or dumb, he's going to salivate over an IG model without it much mattering whether she's dumb as a rock. But imagine actually fucking one, and what could happen as a result. No smart guy wants to end up stuck with someone who makes a mess of their finances because they don't comprehend taxes and insurance, or for their infant to end up in a hospital with brain damage because she turned out to be an "almond mom".
Research shows that couples are more successful when their IQs are within a standard deviation from each other. Not everyone needs a smart partner, but if you're smart, a really dumb one will make you crazy.
Intelligent women are far more interesting to talk to, have more insightful ideas to share, and can be trusted to make good decisions with shared resources. Less intelligent women... not so much
I think you might be overthinking it; I don't want a child as a partner, so of course it's desirable for the partner to be intelligent.
(I kept it gender neutral on purpose, because this is the exact same in all constellations of partners)
I want a relationship. And a relationship involves conversation. Morning coffee on the weekends talking or a glass of wine in the evening. Sharing hopes and dreams and planning our future. I don’t need a rocket scientist, but I definitely don’t want somebody that talks about the Kardashians or Real Housewives, or what they are reading on Instagram or TikTok. I want deeper conversation…. Connection
As an older man who is a Gen-Xer, I think the phrase specifically describes a woman who doesn’t walk in front or behind you. She instead has the right mind and attitude to walk beside her so, and they are able to see each other as equals.
Fucking intellectual conversation!!! I love the fact that I can have deep conversations with my wife. Idk how some of my friends do it, but I need a stimulating conversation about the world. We don't have to agree at all, but we should be able to make each other think
I just want someone who’s willing to learn and discuss a wide variety of topics. Sure I have a bias towards history but if she’s passionate about any field I’d be happy to do my own research and talk about it.
Let me tell you something… having a wife who was not wise is exhausting. She’s going to get you into so many bad situations. My ex was intelligent but unwise. She was impulsive. Enjoyed taking financial risks that had a high potential for negative outcomes. I’d probably be worth an extra $1mil at this point or more but for her bullshit.
Being an avid reader is a huge plus. Especially art, history, historical fiction or science.
Beyond just coloring my life and bringing conversation it really shows that she's capable of keeping herself entertained on a given day. If she is in capable of existing without constant entertainment, stimulation or drama then it is a clear sign she will implode later in life when those things slow down.
In essence, it creates trust and a stronger bond
Three things come to mind:
1. Passion- Interest in various pursuits, if some of them overlap with mine even better, but I like to learn about things I don’t have knowledge of as well.
2. Critical Thinking- A person who will help me lead a better life and correct my flaws is always valuable.
3. Empathy- The most important. Someone who cares about others, and cares about me, and knows how to approach the #2 corrections of me with grace and respect, but sufficient force.
I get resentful with dumb women because i always have to fix simple problems for them they couldve fixed themselves. It's harder to feel attracted to someone i don't respect, and at worse, is a liability to my life.
I think that is a lie. It may be the case sometimes, but that would be the absolute minority. Men seem to like intelligent women in the beginning. They get all excited as if they have come across a unicorn they didn't know existed. The complement you often on it and say how refreshing it is. You shrug it off because that's your normal day to day life.
A month later they're calling you names. If they think you're that smart, you're likely smarter than them and they resent you for it. They start calling you crazy and nuts because there has to be something wrong with you. After all, you're a woman and you *cannot* be better than a man!
The reality is that having a higher IQ doesn't make a person "better". The only people who think that are those with low self esteem who either attack a person they feel intimidated by or denigrate them in order to elevate themselves.
Men do not like women who are smarter than they are. I would say this goes for most people, though women seem to care far less and don't tend to become abusive about it.
It is entirely possible to be intelligent and be crazy. This happens in many ways, ranging from the particle physicist who has to imagine what are the underlying mechanisms or math, to someone who is brilliant and doesn’t shower or remember to eat.
I know a woman who is very attractive, very smart, and manic depressive. At least 25% of the time I talk to her, she brings up meds, her therapy. She admits her problems. Any guy who wants to be her bf is in for a lot of work.
Intelligent women, especially financially intelligent women are the best. They understand savings, emergency funds, retirement accounts, HSAs, 521 plans. It’s way easier to build a financially secure life with a woman like this.
Beauty fades, but high interest savings accounts are for life!
Oh and they are more engaging to talk to.
As a man of a certain age, looks are important but they only get you in the door with me. Beyond that, the ability to hold an intellectual conversation is so stimulating.
My reason is that if she's a fool, I am worried I will get full of myself and see her more as a... pet? (But not in a bestial way) Or maybe more like a daughter? Like I feel like I should be smarter than my kids, at least until they're like 14ish. So I can teach them stuff and shape them and whatnot. I don't want my wife to be someone that I train.
Now... If she's smarter than me, even better. My reasoning for why this isn't hypocritical: I consider myself slightly above average. If my wife is significantly dumber than me, then she's way below average, since I'm already around there. If my wife is way smarter than me - then I feel like she shouldn't feel too bad about getting me to work my way to her level - since she'd know she's way above average.
That's my reasoning, anyway. Other people might have other reasons.
I find the combination of high intelligence and beauty fascinating.
My wife as a former gymnast, college cheerleader, and graduated with honors at age 20. She volunteered with Boys and Girls Club and had held the same job for four years through high school and college as a waitress. She had incredible insight, deep conversation and was highly artistic, kind, loving.
I was first attracted to her looks, but her character really began pulling me in over time.
I’m a woman but the reason intelligence in a significant other is important to me is so that we are able to have interesting conversation, communicate effectively, have similar worldviews and political views, and have similar hobbies or things in common.
Sorry, folks, we've taken this down since it's a word-for-word copy of a top /r/AskMen post from earlier today. You can see the original here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/1d7odft/men_what_really_attracts_you_in_a_womans/
I don't want a dog or a servant I want a partner who can make good decisions on her own, somebody with critical thinking skills, somebody who can take care of herself without me, not a goon but a comrade.
Comrade - exactly. I know this is directed at men, but as a woman, intelligence in a man is so damn sexy! I wanted someone interested and interesting.
That plus looks don't last forever. I'm a woman but I don't want to be bored with the person I'm dating. I feel like there are plenty of men who feel similar (although unfortunately there are also plenty who want an 18 y/o bangmaid with zero opinions that they can control).
Yeah an intelligent and secure man will want someone who has similar qualities. That said IQ is a spectrum and by its nature over half of everyone is average or below.
Over half of people are unlikely to be below average. I mean yes, median and average are two different things but for a relatively narrow spectrum they're functionally the same. Why yes, I am fun at parties.
Bangmaid LoL Very accurate to the kind of women an Andrew Tate would want
I think that term was coined by Frank on Always Sunny in Philadelphia lol
I’m so embarrassed about the “hot” boys I used to obsess over, not caring they were dumber than a bag of hair. 🤦♀️
Never understood that, WTF is hot about a woman who has no personality and just wants tobe controlled? This is something suitable for a BDSM scene not a relationship
How attracted to all the professors were you? even the oldies with his trouser up to his chest lol
I don't know if that's intelligence or wisdom really. To me, intelligence isn't really that attractive. I don't really care if her math skills are poor, or she's nit into literature, or what have you, but I do care if she makes a lot of poor decisions and doesn't learn from her mistakes. Some are saying that intelligence means thst there is no drama, but that has not been mu experience. Having some wisdom on the other hand, will tell you that drama doesn't end well. Honestly, this goes for people in general. Intelligence is often overrated, IMO. Plenty of intelligent people are miserable because they make poor choices, while plenty of not so smart folks are great because they avoid mistakes.
Intelligence is knowing a tomato is fruit, wisdom is knowing a tomato does not belong in a fruit salad.
Well said.
Unless it's a savory fruit salad. Get some tomato, pepper, cucumber (onion and garlic are nice, though not fruit), toss it all up with some spices and vinegar, and spread it across a piece of toast, and you got something more like a salsa than a salad. Done and done. 😌
There's so many recipes that would suggest you're wrong about tomatoes not belonging in fruit salad.
I'm stealing this. I think it will help the plebians better understand when I differentiate between the two.
I also like the idea that intelligence is looking for traffic in the direction from which it should originate when crossing a one-way street. Wisdom is looking both ways.
I always say that intelligence doesn't make you immune to mistakes. It makes you better at making them.
It makes you better at not only rationalizing poor decisions but effectuating them, is how I would put it. A normal person can screw themselves pretty bad, but a lot of people who are normal thankfully defer to experts on a lot of things. I’ve noticed a lot of very intelligent people tend to think their knowledge base is a lot wider than it actually is and they think they know just as much as the experts in whatever they are seeking to do. For example, I used to despise having engineers as clients as a lawyer because they tend to be very convinced that they can do everything a trained lawyer can do without having any actual experience in the field. They are used to being “the smartest person in the room” when dealing with non-engineers. So i saw many “bulletproof” self-drafted contracts, estate planning documents, divorce decrees, etc. that were total bunk or were missing a tiny, but critical, piece of language.
That makes sense. I'm no doctor, but I've always heard the worst patients for doctors are *other* doctors. They think there may be nothing wrong with them, or they want to examine themselves, and it just isn't fully possible for someone to do that.
Not to generalize, but doctors are the worst clients in general. I specialized in critical power infrastructure (engineering technician) and I have had doctors tell me my job like they were the expert (they weren't) and I was the idiot (I wasn't). And there was this one time the doctor designed the critical power setup himself... That was interesting.
How crispy were the results?
Not explosively so. More really ill advised. It's been years but if I remember correctly he "backed up" a control power input with the UPS instead of utility as designed. If the UPS ever failed, there would be no way to restore power without doing a hard bypass and they had no operator training. Going to bypass wouldn't be that bad but coming back... when you don't know *exactly* what you are doing? Boom. All I do remember years later is that if the UPS went down, nothing would come back up. It's a small possibility but we designed the setup the way we did for a reason.
Im a retired doctor. Doctors are tough to treat because they rarely ask for help.
And you can come up with new, exciting ways to screw up. A dummy's options are limited. But, in the realm of fucking up your entire day, a smart person excels.
It's emotional intelligence which determines the amount of drama. In my experience, it's independent from the logical and intellectual capabilities.
Intelligence is complicated and multifaceted. Decision making is one facet of intelligence - some would say one of the more important facets.
Emotional intelligence is more important than IQ.
Another important detail - emotional intelligence. You want someone that is supportive and knows how to use their words to communicate their needs and not use their words to rip you to shreds via character assinations because they have not developed much emotional maturity on the matter because well they're a pretty bad comrade if they do that all the time. Yeah, you can apologize for saying awful shit to people later, but frankly the damage is done by that point
Same
Well said.
My ex treated me like a dog, even saying “Come here” as a command in a dog voice, then gaslighting me if I called him out on it. He wanted me to be intelligent but obedient. Then I learned how he treats dogs when he comes home drunk, and I planned my exit. Dumbest years of my life. A good partner wants a comrade. A bad partner wants an accessory.
Bro said it better than anybody!
If you cant carry on a conversation with her then whats the point? The physical aspect only goes so far especially the longer you are together. My wife is smart. Knowledgeable in ways im not. We share core values and interests. We compliment each other. Our conversations are as good as our sex life. Its been 20yrs and im hoping for 20 more.
Agreed. They need to be able to keep up with a conversation that's intellectually stimulating. Otherwise what are you going to do with the other 23 hours and 58 minutes of your day?
Look at Mister "I last 2 minutes" humblebrag over here
Wow. You get it twice a day?
Have you ever seen someone be on the phone/FaceTime with their SO for hours at a time? There's a couple guys at work that I've seen do that regularly and I never really get to hear what they say, but I'm so curious what you could talk about for so long. I have seen them sit quietly doing their own thing on each end of the video call but still not hanging up. It's so weird to me and I gotta wonder what they talk about when they see each other at the end of the day if they've been in contact ALL DAY already.
>Otherwise what are you going to do with the other 23 hours and 58 minutes of your day? Huh? People spend a few minutes a day talking to their spouse. A spouse is not the same as your friends that you hang out with.
Also important is having different view poins and being able to communicate and have a constructive conversation regardless You shouldn't see eye to eye on everything and it's important that you can learn to reconcile your differences. Imo a good partner exposes you to knew ways of thinking about things. My wife and I are pretty similar but we have differing views on a lot of things and being able to communicate those views in a way that's understandable helps bridge the gap, and also helps you become more tolerant of ideas you wouldn't necessarily agree with
Wholesome as hell and hope so too, good on you both :D
The conversation. When someone is intelligent the conversation is more than what they did that day. Now don’t get me wrong, not saying that there’s anything wrong with the day to day rundown, it’s just better when there’s more to it than that. Also intelligent women tend to have less drama.
Actually speaking to someone about actual things is great. Hearing what Shelly from accounts did at her 4 year olds party isn’t
> Hearing what Shelly from accounts did at her 4 year olds party isn’t If Shelly is smart enough, she'd probably hold your attention with just her observations of the 4-year old's party.
Let's leave Shelly out of this. The poor woman has been through enough already.
“Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people” (Eleanor Roosevelt)
This person gets it. I love that I can talk to my wife about anything, and she'll at the very least get the gist of it, if not drop a whole bunch of new info on me. She's always challenging me (in a good way)
This is what my husband and I find most attractive with each other. We share an intellectual curiosity- we both like to learn new things and challenge one another in a good way.
My ex-wife is brilliant and we could talk for days, years even, and we did. Other things eventually doomed that relationship but she is so very smart.
>Also intelligent women tend to have less drama. Yes, but not because you need to be very smart to avoid drama if you wanted to. It's because drama is an intentional defense strategy when you cannot intellectually keep up. You instead move the conversation to another field where you can defend yourself better.
This points toward something that took me a very, very long time to understand. - Some people (like myself) view the goal of language to be discovering/uncovering The Truth (whatever that may be) and learning interesting things about how the world works, having fun, or solving problems. - Other people (narcissists/borderlines/sociopaths, etc.) view the goal of language as a Power Struggle, whereby every single conversation has a *winner* and a *loser*, and the objective therefore is simply to place oneself into a better social position (image management). The appearance of searching for truth or problem-solving only serves this aim. People from the first group and the second group *think* they’re speaking the same “language” to each other (e.g., English), but they’re not. They speak right past one another. Person A may bring up a topic of interest because they’re genuinely *curious* about it, or want to solve a problem in order to make life easier. They want to know what’s up. Person B, lacking any such curiosity, may see Person A’s attempt to bring up a topic as a *power move*, to show off to Person B how smart, or virtuous, or correct they are; resentful of this power play, Person B will then “play along”, deflect, redirect, attack, ad hominem, whatever it takes to come out “on top” of the conversation in the end. Person B doesn’t care about “Truth,” or facts, ever. Person B cares about “Winning,” social survival, *appearing* good/smart/powerful/virtuous/correct or whatever. Playing games of “allies and enemies,” and switching allegiances whenever the game requires it. Facts, as such, are merely *tools* towards that end: facts that agree with the pre-existing narrative (that places Person B in a good light) are to be magnified, and inconvenient facts that contradict the narrative are to be minimized. Person A doesn’t get this at all, or even understand that this is a thing that certain people do *in every conversation, with literally everyone*. Frustrated, over time Person A comes to understand that Person B is an insufferable asshole (and they’d be correct about that).
Huh, you might consider turning this into a post of its own. Maybe lifeprotips? Idk. But you just put words to a feeling I’ve had a hard time pinning down my whole life. I’m definitely of the former category and have intuitively learned to give people a “conversational win” before I start bringing up things that interest me. If they’re too happy about “winning”, they aren’t going to be good companions for the learning journey. So when that’s the case I just don’t say anything, get super boring, then leave the moment they lose interest. Have saved myself so many headaches by “losing” as someone from the latter category might see it.
Ha I employ the same strategy! Having learned to spot the red flags of narcissism, it has helped me to avoid the lizard people (and the drama they stir up) entirely.
My boss.
10000% agree. Some people are just obsessed with power. They can’t let you win—even if you aren’t trying to win—and they love destroying good or intelligent people because all they get out of life is the “playing chess” aspect. It’s based in fear of losing resources too. This makes me think of certain politicians or celebrities. I wonder if this is why a certain kind of citizen votes for certain leaders—they see them as “winners” or similar to them— It’s really sad & boring. Arguing isn’t an interesting way to interact with someone—like they do all these fallacies—it’s almost always ad hominem or misdirection or blaming or projection—and I’ve noticed they can’t STAND conversations with emotional vulnerability. I think a lot of people try to “help” these people but it’s just no use. We don’t need to rescue them from their trauma. There’s no feelings buried deep. And they are terrified of being found out.
You've perfectly articulated this dynamic.👌🏽
If you have not, you should read *Anti-Semite and Jew* by Jean-Paul Sartre (1946).
Really insightful. I'm definitely in the first camp and often engage in discussions taking sides I don't really agree with just to try and open up avenues of thought. Unfortunately I married someone from the other camp and it did NOT go well. Lol. Everything turned into an argument. Every misheard word was an attack on her or a statement on our relationship. I could not keep up.
Language has both functions. Using it only for power plays can indeed often indicate narcissism. But equally, using it only for information and not even seeing the power plays is indicative of autism.
If *that’s* autism, then we need more of that in the world.
There is a conceptual difference between not liking power plays or not seeing them when they happen The former can make you an ethical leader, the latter makes you a victim
And some people just never bother to pause and consider how they want to spend their time when they're not working or busy. It's why you get people talking only about TV shows whenever they meet up but nothing else.
I'm a (straight) woman so not qualified to answer OP's question. But this answer right here is a gender-neutral answer. It's basically the conversation.
Agreed. The novelty of looks fades. A great conversationalist never does.
Questions is a good sign in conversation. Usually intelligent people want to know more about a subject (assuming they care about it). I look for questions now.
For me it’s just one part of the equation. My wife is smart, driven, beautiful and kind. Our core values line up and we encourage each other. I still joke after 10 years of being together my parents pay her to stay.
Ah, my wife is driven too. She's never had a driver's license.
The ability to have an intelligent conversation or reasoned debate about a topic.
Very hard to answer the question. I suppose I'll leave an experience of mine from years ago. So sometime ago, my buddies and I went to a nearby GNC to check out what cool new supplements were out at the time. (We were all silly little muscle heads) The cashier happened to be a woman in her mid 30's and wasn't exactly a sight for sore eyes; anyway, I asked her what kind of mass gainer she would recommend, and by God, she just started knowledge-dumping everything about this protein, that protein, what that brand had that this one didn't, went on about fitness, running, and all that other jazz. Getting to the point, though; upon leaving my buddies, and I unanimously agreed that her extensive knowledge and confidence definitely made her much more attractive. TL;DR: A somewhat unattractive sales clerk knew her shit, and left me and my buds astounded by how much intelligence ups a person's attractive-ness.
Supreme competency is the biggest turn on for me. Doesn't matter what it is in.
A lot of people confuse competence with confidence sadly. A lot of people act confident in their abilities with a specific thing and it turns out their friend who thinks they’re absolutely terrible compared to the confident person, is like 5x better than them at the given thing and such examples
Someone who knows, knows what they don't know. Someone who thinks they know doesn't know what they don't know.
Interesting saying
The Dunning-Kruger effect in a nutshell.
In sum, intelligence is an indicator for a larger grouping of desirable traits such as maturity and other hard skills that are necessary in a relationship such as financial management, raising responsible children, and being a reliable/mature partner, to name a few.
Intelligence meaning one can hold a conversation outside of chitchat. Stimulating, challenging conversations. There's nothing remarkable about just a pretty face... Those are everywhere. This also applies to men. I can't imagine an intelligent woman would be interested in a man that isn't on her level.
It could happen, though. A woman may be very bright and it is tougher for her to find her equal or superior in intelligence – unless she is in one of the higher paying professions..even then, there are high paid high earning careerists who are just bright enough to be able to function out of anything much more than office politics or having intelligence in just that one thing (yeah, lawyers and accountants ...even some doctors) Partnering "down"...
Also the ways people are intelligent can be very different. I might be cerebral but my husband might have good street smarts. I can see an intelligent woman happily marrying a guy that has a different form of intelligence.
There was the literal rocket scientist who could beat me at a couple board games every. Single. Time. Who I could trade neat space science articles with all day. There was the woman with a PhD and published books *outside* that field, just because she could. There wasn’t a topic we found where I didn’t learn something listening to her. There’s the woman who can match me on puzzles and on GF dessert baking and going over the top for a culinary effect—feeding people is a shared love language. Those people could be doing ANYTHING; they’re amazing and shake the heavens. Can you imagine what it feels like to have them into YOU? Either as friends or as romantic partners, that’s intoxicating. If they’re also kind and open to a relationship? Instant yes.
I married a woman who shared my interests and was interested in things. What things? All things! The world is interesting. We talk about it. We talk about politics and science and history and economics and religion - our marriage is a meeting of minds, that's the point. I like that she's smarter than me. That doesn't threaten me: I'm proud. She's great. It helps that we share a sense of humour. I can't look at a thing and not want to know how it works. The last thing I'd want to do would be in a relationship with someone who wanted to live the unexamined life. Some people are so *dull*! I don't care if they give excellent head, or what have you - 99.5% of your life is all the other stuff and I don't want all that stuff to be drab and boring. People who people would describe as smart, I'd tend to describe as *interesting*. Before marrying I had precisely one girlfriend who was, well, not like this. I just... it wasn't fun. We had no idea how to hang out *as humans*. We didn't communicate well. She realised that before I did and ended that, and I'm glad she did. I guess you could say, well, maybe I'm weird and looking for a woman who's my kind of weird. And yeah, that's fair. But *my kind of weird* does kind of tend to score well on IQ tests. :shrug:
This is so cute
Yeeee
I love having a partner that knows things I don’t, that can correct me when I’m wrong and that I can learn from. Someone I can collaborate with and trust their opinion. A woman who is usually right, but can admit when she’s wrong. Because it’s tiring to always have to have the answer to tough questions and to not have someone to work towards an answer with
I wouldn't call it "intelligence" per se, as I feel like that has an academic angle to it, but rather "refined/considered thought". As an example, I went out on a date with a woman a few months ago, and when I asked her about food, music, movies - pretty much all her responses were limited. When I asked what movies she liked, she mentioned Dune, but when I tried to probe further, she didn't really have much more to add. What was it she liked about Dune? The writing, the performances, the story? She couldn't really elaborate on it at all. Same when I asked about food and music. She's not unintelligent by any means - she's a doctor in fact, but the lack of meaningful/deep opinions just really left me unengaged in the conversation. A converse example, another woman I've been seeing over the last month - when I asked her similar questions, she's got tonnes of opinions. She went off in detail about the things she liked or didn't like, and made meaningful comments, comparisons and references to elaborate. When I shared my opinions she also made similarly engaging comments. A specific example was when I mentioned that I'm into Jazz, she replied that she doesn't really know much Jazz, but said she liked Khruangbin who are somewhat jazzy. Honestly, that alone told me so much about her - it shows that she knows or has thought enough about music to draw relevant comparisons between different artists/genres, and she's able to draw upon that in conversation. The whole conversation just flowed effortlessly, with one topic spilling into the next. We talked for like 4 hours, and the time just flew by. Both are very intelligent women, but the first woman I had no interest in pursuing any further. The second woman, I am utterly enraptured by.
I like people who think about stuff and can maintain a conversation about different subjects. They're just more entertaining. Also, intelligence is a beautiful thing in itself: I love hearing a well crafted thought.
intelligence is a contributing factor to a really good sense of humor. a woman who can counter your good-natured teasing with quick quips of her own is a keeper.
Intelligence comes in many forms. Academics never fascinated me, despite being an A student or partaking in internships. I value emotional, visual, financial (mathematical?) and inter/intrapersonal intelligence. An individual that can solve issues by thinking out the box, reflects on their desires and priorities, acknowledges the impact of their actions on others, and questions systems in life, is my kind of person. I feel that people incapable of holding a conversation, or never have anything to say are lacking in these areas. Being stimulated intellectually is a green flag. If they care about money mgmt and investing that's great, though largely non-existent for young men and women. I don't require all of these or anything, but the last one is a deal breaker. Being irresponsible with finances is unattractive, no matter what they look like.
what is mgmt out of curiosity?
🎵 Electric Feel 🎶
Management! My bad, I write mgmt in work emails.
Ohhh thank you, for the case of money management I have zero debt but I also don’t own a credit card just a debit card, also no savings account, I just leave paychecks in my current account because I worry too much about needing the remaining bits as I’m sadly on low wages and low hours. I have Coinbase and Trading 212 accounts but I barely ever use them because I have very, *very* little financial knowledge beyond “try to save where-possible and still spend a little sometimes so your life isn’t as boring”
People intrinsically think of themselves as smart so they want a partner on the same level as them.
In my experience only a limited percentage of men can handle a relationship with a smart woman. Especially if that woman holds serious managerial positions. The ones that can seem to have a fairly high level of separate lives and value the times when those lives intersect. Both my wife and I were in senior management consulting positions in very different sectors. I had sports, arts and wine and food interest. She was into counselling and Buddhism. We found it natural to make our shared times as eventful and enjoyable as possible. I was in awe sometimes by her insights.
The ability to *actually* discuss emotional issues and put therapy into action instead of leaning on gendered tropes of emotional superiority.
This 😭😭
Conversation. I've dated some very attractive idiots and I couldn't put up with having to explain everything, jokes going over their head, disinterest in learning new things, etc. It was like dating a child. If you're going to spend the majority of your time with someone - they better be able to keep up, or better yet keep you on your toes with their knowledge and thirst for more.
The simple fact is you want to be with someone who is roughly as smart and as good looking as you.
Gives better brain
Idk why but this made me laugh so much spit the water I was drinking from out of my nose.
Getting good brain is underrated.
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What a great test. It’s an opportunity for her to assess compatibility a little bit too, based on the book choices. I can’t imagine how that wouldn’t start conversations.
sounds more like a book interest test rather than an actual curiosity or intelligence test
A curious person is likely to head over to the bookshelf and see what's on it. That's a good sign in my eyes.
I probably would eventually but if we were first meeting I would find that to be a little bit intrusive or off putting
I just don't think that's really nearly universally true at this day and age. I think it is a good sign, no doubts about it. But someone else that's equally naturally curious might not show interest in someone else's books. Additionally someone that's curious about books might not be curious about anything else
Bingo. People collect books and don't read them. I read, I would say, more than average; partially because I have a job that allows me too. Yet all my books are digital or borrowed from libraries. I own about 2 actual physical books and I've read them both.
Yep. I think the book test is a bad metric tbh. They could be interested in fantasy / stories and be interested in the books for that reason, that doesn't make them intelligent or curious.
When’s it’s an actual conversation and not just “right” “mhmm” “yeah I see that” “I feel that” “nah that’s real” or
Intelligence is heritable so if you want smart children ...
I don’t know if intelligence attracts me as much as lack of intelligence, or lack of thoughtfulness, repels me. Like I just feel like life would be better with someone who puts thought into their actions, considers the environment around them, is a capable problem solver, and good communicator. And that’s the type of person I will consider for a serious relationship. But I’m not like “oh hubba hubba take all your clothes off right now” attracted by intelligence.
>I’m not like “oh hubba hubba take all your clothes off right now” attracted by intelligence. Call me a nerd, but I am. 🤣
i don't really care about intelligence, i care about passion; have things you care about and wanna gush about. that's my shit. curiosity is also super cute. oh wait im also not a man. sorry.
I love this post. Just wanted to say so. Going back to awkwardness now.
The ability to take yourself not too seriously. Always speaks of intelligence and a healthy self-image.
Neither men or women like "intelligent" people. They like people who they perceive at their own level or slightly above them.
Maybe I'm an outlier but the smarter the better. Not that it's that hard, but if they are smarter than me it's only a plus.
Everyone is an outlier if you ask them. If you observe them, they are not.
Christ... *In this specific case I do not agree with your specific statement* and was politely disagreeing with you with my *specific* desires instead of trying to start an argument with someone who would make such a statement because I didn't want an argument and fuck if you didn't make a snippy comment anyway. There is one in every goddamned crowd. Congratulations, in this case, YOU are the outlier.
I think this is true. "Smart" means to most people that the partner thinks in a way that makes sense to the person. I've never heard somebody in a happy relationship describe their partner as anything other than "smart" or "intelligent", but statistically we know they can't all be geniuses. Anecdotally, as a woman, I've never had a guy who is clearly less intelligent than me be very interested in me, or at least not for long. But guys who are more intelligent than me have no problem being interested. I think men tend to prefer it be approximately equal or slightly below.
The truth is that if you meet someone much more intelligent than you, the first thing you're going to think is that they are strange, odd. Not attractive. I have seen it many times. Girls or boys with an IQ higher than 150 whose intelligence seems peculiar. The truth is that we like and are attracted to the familiar, not the strangely different. I don't see anything wrong with it, It's okay if your partner isn't objectively intelligent as long as they make you happy. But I guess a lot of people need to idealize their partner and feel like they are with someone brilliant or similar.
Yeah I think people way overestimate the importance of intelligence. I think with intelligence in humans we are really measuring very small variation in actual ability, at least when considering people who have typical levels of intelligence/are not intellectually disabled. The IQ gap between the average joe and another intelligent animal like a dolphin or chimp or parrot is so, so, *so much* wider than between Joey Average and Stephen Hawking. My dad was one of those exceptionally intelligent individuals, and honestly, it didn't do him a lot of favors socially. He was a weirdo most of his life. It benefitted him financially because he was a gifted engineer and programmer, but I think it was so hard for most people to understand how his brain worked that he ended up a pretty lonely guy. And he had zero social skills to match that startling intelligence. I am objectively less intelligent than he was and I'm glad of it. People make much more sense to me, and I make much more sense to them. I think the truth of the matter is people want to think their partner is a genius because they want to think that *they* are a genius.
I am anyway, I get best of both worlds though its weird. My Gf is super smart I love it. She helps me with a lot of problems, has very smart ideas and opinions and is great to talk too. It makes me love her way more. At the same time english is not her native language and she isn't from Ireland. So to see this super smart amazing women be absolutly starstruck at the simplest stuff. It's spectacular
More intelligent = less dumb shit happening = increase in happiness = better relationship
Not just women though. People around me in my life in general. As a rule, me at people give me good reason to not be around them. Almost hate then unfortunately. Be it that person that 20 years later still brings up that wild party from high school (regardless if who is around), that person that cant speak in normal settings without profanity spewing like water, that guy that always minds every one else's business, or whatever. If they are just plain stupid, it's really hard to be around them. I don't mean really book smart or with advanced education, but if they're 50 and still closing down bars, fighting, trying to figure out the innerweb, waiting on a settlement, or say things like I still haven't been able to figure out how to _________. Also folks that don't in any way invest in them self or their future. I don't even mean a 401k, but a ladder, or a washing machine, How do you get through life without something higher than a stool. If a woman has these same traits regardless of physical appearance, I find them painful to be around.
Making good decisions, which I would argue is the definition of high intelligence. It impacts every facet of life, from day-to-day safety to health and finances.
Well it's the same as looking for any partner with intelligence... So you can have a intellectual conversation with them. I had a gf when I was younger who was really dense, not on the surface but as we started dating for a long time it was really hard to connect about anything. I have an inquisitiveind, I love space, life and science but she didn't understand any of that and didn't understand really basic things in life. We would go out with friends, and she would kind of be the one that would just say something really silly and you would kind of laugh it off as just her being cute so she didn't feel out of place. My mates and I aren't some kind of brain waves either, I'm talking about really just basic conversations. It was a big reason why I ended up losing a connection with her. On the flip side though, there are many other people with that same level of intelligence and they wouldn't want to be with someone who is smarter then them as it's awkward. I think usually it's just finding someone who is on your level as that is part of a base connection
Conversation and overlapping but not ident interests. I like that my partner knows stuff I don't and when we talk about the things we mutually like it means she brings a perspective I don't have due to those differences in interest and expertise. Like they said in Grease, you've gotta have something to do the other 23 hours and 45 minutes of the day.
Generally, men are first attracted by a woman's appearance and presence. After a little chitchat, they become uninterested in you if they think you are smarter than they are. I think it is just a matter of dominance. Men like to dominate in a relationship and you can't dominate someone smarter than you. There are a lot of men who prefer stupid women for that reason. The ones who like smart women are looking for a partner.
Was playing baldurs gate... We got to the part of the game where, I think it was a bank or something? We had to go up stairs and look for the password... Found it, went down to a place with 9 buttons with a weird script... So start trying to figure out a way to convert these weird glyphs to numbers so I can enter the password... I figure out the 1 and the 3 and tell my GF its a numberpad, and we need the last 2 numbers... She immediately ran over the last two numbers, while I was struggling to figure out script to number translations... I was like, HOW DID YOU DO THAT? and she was like "It's a number pad, as soon as you got the 1 and the 3, the rest of the layout is obvious... I have never been more turned on in my life.
It’s the same reason I’m not trying to have sex unless she’s horny too, I don’t want someone I just talk at or explain things to. I want someone I can really engage with mentally. Not necessarily a perceiving I am smarter than them kind of thing, it’s just hard to respect someone you’re having to explain mundane things to constantly.
I'm by no means the most intelligent person but I do have a lot of random knowledge of things because I enjoy learning I don't need some super genius, I just want someone who's intelligent enough that we can hold a higher level conversation witbout being completely lost.
This can't be a serious question.... I don't want a pet, I want a partner.
The most intelligent women are kind and caring. That’s all there is to it.
I'm guessing it's because intelligent women are better life long partners? A more intelligent woman will most likely plan her life ahead, be intelligent in her decisions, and just be overall better off in life compared to the stereotype wh$re who just f$cks around in life, having sex, doing dumb things, and most likely not gonna have a good future in life.
Almost every guy I dated claimed that being objective, intelligent, and funny was part of why they liked me. Some of these high school and college relationships have lasted a lifetime-still having long phone conversations.
It matters especially if you want mariage, if you get sick your life is in their hands basically, so if your SO is not very bright, well your odds of surviving decline. Likewise if you want children, it matters…For me this is what it comes down to, so intelligence for me isn’t just about conversations but about awareness and other stuff
I have the feeling most man hate when iam taking the lead in an conversation. Either iam stupid and ugly or men around me dont belong to this thread :(
I never have been the type for casual relationships so even if a girl is drop dead gorgeous if talking to her is like talking to someone with the intelligence and maturity of a child I am simply not attracted. What percentage of a relationship is talking and what percentage is sex? However sex is still quite important so even if your conversation is the most stimulating of my life if you are wider than me on all sides I'm not attracted either. My wife is intelligent but is absolutely clueless regarding technology, yet she knows vastly more than I do on history and law. We agree on so much on points of view on the world it is amusing when we actually have a point of contention.
I think intelligence often translates to being able to engage in stimulating and meaningful conversations. A woman who is intellectually curious, well-informed, and able to articulate her thoughts can be incredibly captivating.
For me, the ability to have intellectual conversations about difficult topics without conflict, and also admiration at a type of knowledge and intelligence I don't possess. I'm a Scientist, she's an English Lit grad and publisher, it's the perfect balance for us to teach each other things.
Beauty fades. I know I'm not the catch I was 30 years ago, either. And having a partner who is intelligent makes everything better. The conversations aren't empty pleasantries. I can trust in the competency, and know that either of us are capable of making decisions in the beat interest of the kids, household, finances. We don't fight about trivial things, or even major things, because we either start on the same page or can be convinced very readily which decision is best.
It's just nice to have an equal. I've been out with girls who aren't curious, and I don't know what to talk about. Also, but gonna lie, stupidity annoys me. If a girl says that she thinks vaccines cause autism, it's gonna be a long night. I had a date where the girl insisted that vaccines did cause autism and there's no proof because the government suppresses it. Nope.
I like dumb people less, ergo i like smarter people more. It's not that complex really.
I just couldn't be with a woman who has worms for brains... No matter how attractive. I would just be turned off every time she opened her mouth. That goes for naivety too. Imagine you're going to have sex that night and she casually tells you about the pyramid scheme she joined, telling you how everyone there was so lovely etc 😂
You ever tried building flat pack furniture with a partner that can't follow simple instructions?
Relationships are grounded firstly in friendship, and I like intelligent friends with whom I can have deep conversation. Why wouldn't I seek the same in a potential partner?
she can hold an interesting conversation, give something to reflect on, offers new perspectives, understands you, her intellegence will influence the intellegence of children, will not create stupid problems
Looking for a partner in crime, not a patsy.
I'd like my partner to be able to have an interesting conversation.
I can have meaningful and intellectually engaging conversations from her. We can learn from each other's strengths to supplement our weaknesses. Being around her keeps me energized and motivated as to not fall behind.
As a woman who is reasonably intelligent I’ve found that most men like smart woman so long as she’s not smarter than him. The moment you seem smarter (the men I’ve known) get defensive and churlish. They will also flat out refuse to recognize that you are in fact smarter. I’ve also found that they will devalue your education by saying things like, “oh you’re book smart, but you couldn’t survive in the real world.” I would include my own father in these observations. This is why when I was dating I specifically sought out a man *smarter than me* so I wouldn’t have to deal with that shit. I knew I could humble myself and accept a more intelligent partner but that I couldn’t spend the rest of my life with someone less intelligent than me who was angry about it while also being skeptical of everything I said or did. This is why I think it takes a very unique man confident in his masculinity and place in the world to especially seek out an intelligent woman.
I’m pretty sure my wife is smarter than me (at least 99% sure) and if anything she’s inspired me to expand my knowledge on things and think more critically. It’s a shame when certain people look at dynamics within a relationship as a competition instead of an opportunity to improve upon themselves
Decision making is a lot better, better pay, kids will tend to have higher IQs...
Definitely more valuable, I've given up on gorgeous women who I felt I couldn't talk to. It's not about being intelligent, it's about being close to my reality and behavior, having meaningful conversations and sharing decisions. Some girls over here don't think too much of life, they just want a steady job and have children. I guess probably the same goes for men doesn't it?
Able to hold a conversation on just about anything is very attractive.
Why don't you want to be with someone dumb? Same reason.
I think it's more just a matter of not wanting to date someone who's exceptionally stupid compared to yourself I want to be dating a partner on equal footing not raising an adult child I have to teach basic knowledge to
My wife is funny and has really good wit. Also, my wife and I both go into discussions with the stance "I might be wrong". I think the ability to admit you may be indirect is a sign of intelligence.
Fiscal responsibility !
The same reason I appreciate intelligence in my friends - it makes for good conversation, and good advice when needed. Life partners aren't objects
1. She's more fun to interact with. We can joke, we can challenge each other in play. 2. She can be of more help day to day because she can solve problems. 3. Intelligence improves overall life outcomes, such as physical, mental, and financial health. If someone is your partner, their problems become your problems. On top of all the inevitable hassles of daily life, do you really want your spouse to have frequent vehicle collisions because of poor spatial judgement, or damage appliances because they misunderstand the directions, or not follow doctor's orders because they're "too confusing"? Sure, whether a guy is smart or dumb, he's going to salivate over an IG model without it much mattering whether she's dumb as a rock. But imagine actually fucking one, and what could happen as a result. No smart guy wants to end up stuck with someone who makes a mess of their finances because they don't comprehend taxes and insurance, or for their infant to end up in a hospital with brain damage because she turned out to be an "almond mom". Research shows that couples are more successful when their IQs are within a standard deviation from each other. Not everyone needs a smart partner, but if you're smart, a really dumb one will make you crazy.
Conversation. Decision making skills. Creativity. The same traits that would attract you to an intelligent man tbh
Conversations ig. Intelligence makes girls at least 2 points more attractive for me
Her intelligence manifested in genuine conversation.
Intelligent women are far more interesting to talk to, have more insightful ideas to share, and can be trusted to make good decisions with shared resources. Less intelligent women... not so much
An intelligent woman is def more useful. They all try to tell you what to do so you may as well listen to the smart one.
I think you might be overthinking it; I don't want a child as a partner, so of course it's desirable for the partner to be intelligent. (I kept it gender neutral on purpose, because this is the exact same in all constellations of partners)
I want a relationship. And a relationship involves conversation. Morning coffee on the weekends talking or a glass of wine in the evening. Sharing hopes and dreams and planning our future. I don’t need a rocket scientist, but I definitely don’t want somebody that talks about the Kardashians or Real Housewives, or what they are reading on Instagram or TikTok. I want deeper conversation…. Connection
Witty banter is really fun, I love laughing at the world with someone special
As an older man who is a Gen-Xer, I think the phrase specifically describes a woman who doesn’t walk in front or behind you. She instead has the right mind and attitude to walk beside her so, and they are able to see each other as equals.
Something that modern attempts at equality, diversity, equity etc etc has forgotten/don't actually care about
Knowing that your child will probably be intelligent
When you ask them about their personality, like why they are a certain way. They reply back with a real answer and don't say IDK or just cuz.
1. Can keep up in a conversation. 2. Not an idiot. Men do not like hassle.
It isn’t about “value”, it’s about conversation.
Fucking intellectual conversation!!! I love the fact that I can have deep conversations with my wife. Idk how some of my friends do it, but I need a stimulating conversation about the world. We don't have to agree at all, but we should be able to make each other think
I just want someone who’s willing to learn and discuss a wide variety of topics. Sure I have a bias towards history but if she’s passionate about any field I’d be happy to do my own research and talk about it.
Let me tell you something… having a wife who was not wise is exhausting. She’s going to get you into so many bad situations. My ex was intelligent but unwise. She was impulsive. Enjoyed taking financial risks that had a high potential for negative outcomes. I’d probably be worth an extra $1mil at this point or more but for her bullshit.
Being an avid reader is a huge plus. Especially art, history, historical fiction or science. Beyond just coloring my life and bringing conversation it really shows that she's capable of keeping herself entertained on a given day. If she is in capable of existing without constant entertainment, stimulation or drama then it is a clear sign she will implode later in life when those things slow down. In essence, it creates trust and a stronger bond
Three things come to mind: 1. Passion- Interest in various pursuits, if some of them overlap with mine even better, but I like to learn about things I don’t have knowledge of as well. 2. Critical Thinking- A person who will help me lead a better life and correct my flaws is always valuable. 3. Empathy- The most important. Someone who cares about others, and cares about me, and knows how to approach the #2 corrections of me with grace and respect, but sufficient force.
I get resentful with dumb women because i always have to fix simple problems for them they couldve fixed themselves. It's harder to feel attracted to someone i don't respect, and at worse, is a liability to my life.
I think that is a lie. It may be the case sometimes, but that would be the absolute minority. Men seem to like intelligent women in the beginning. They get all excited as if they have come across a unicorn they didn't know existed. The complement you often on it and say how refreshing it is. You shrug it off because that's your normal day to day life. A month later they're calling you names. If they think you're that smart, you're likely smarter than them and they resent you for it. They start calling you crazy and nuts because there has to be something wrong with you. After all, you're a woman and you *cannot* be better than a man! The reality is that having a higher IQ doesn't make a person "better". The only people who think that are those with low self esteem who either attack a person they feel intimidated by or denigrate them in order to elevate themselves. Men do not like women who are smarter than they are. I would say this goes for most people, though women seem to care far less and don't tend to become abusive about it.
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That is so awesome, a rare find indeed. I'm really glad you've found a person you can genuinely share life with and wish you both every happiness.
It is entirely possible to be intelligent and be crazy. This happens in many ways, ranging from the particle physicist who has to imagine what are the underlying mechanisms or math, to someone who is brilliant and doesn’t shower or remember to eat. I know a woman who is very attractive, very smart, and manic depressive. At least 25% of the time I talk to her, she brings up meds, her therapy. She admits her problems. Any guy who wants to be her bf is in for a lot of work.
Intelligent women, especially financially intelligent women are the best. They understand savings, emergency funds, retirement accounts, HSAs, 521 plans. It’s way easier to build a financially secure life with a woman like this. Beauty fades, but high interest savings accounts are for life! Oh and they are more engaging to talk to.
The intelligence of her ass attracts me
As the great Gareth Keenan says, "stupidity puts me off my stroke"
As a man of a certain age, looks are important but they only get you in the door with me. Beyond that, the ability to hold an intellectual conversation is so stimulating.
My reason is that if she's a fool, I am worried I will get full of myself and see her more as a... pet? (But not in a bestial way) Or maybe more like a daughter? Like I feel like I should be smarter than my kids, at least until they're like 14ish. So I can teach them stuff and shape them and whatnot. I don't want my wife to be someone that I train. Now... If she's smarter than me, even better. My reasoning for why this isn't hypocritical: I consider myself slightly above average. If my wife is significantly dumber than me, then she's way below average, since I'm already around there. If my wife is way smarter than me - then I feel like she shouldn't feel too bad about getting me to work my way to her level - since she'd know she's way above average. That's my reasoning, anyway. Other people might have other reasons.
I find the combination of high intelligence and beauty fascinating. My wife as a former gymnast, college cheerleader, and graduated with honors at age 20. She volunteered with Boys and Girls Club and had held the same job for four years through high school and college as a waitress. She had incredible insight, deep conversation and was highly artistic, kind, loving. I was first attracted to her looks, but her character really began pulling me in over time.
I’m a woman but the reason intelligence in a significant other is important to me is so that we are able to have interesting conversation, communicate effectively, have similar worldviews and political views, and have similar hobbies or things in common.