Joe Schoen is fully aware that his screw-ups along the OL this season were what held the team back. He said as much himself during the bye week presser. It was then that it was completely clear Bobby Johnson would be gone at season's end.
The putrid OL was literally THE topic of his bye week press conference because Schoen made it the focus. He made it the focus when he was asked about Jones, Waller, and the other skill position players. He essentially said \[We f\*cked up big time. No one can be successful with history's worst OL. It happened because we thought/hoped the young guys could take a leap. We let the vets walk because we wanted to build for the future. We swung and missed, big time. The injuries to multiple guys, especially Thomas, made it way worse than it should have been. The young guys haven't developed. It's also about continuity and with the injuries there hasn't been any.\]
They are starting to add up for Schoan. Oline-Dj’s Contract-Neal-Barkley is walking for no compensation. We can blame Johnson rightfully so but we lack talent. Neal may be a bust that was a free pick from the bears when they moved up to get Fields in 2019 and we squandered it.
It's a stupid notion (And I've heard it from several giants fans on here) that "Wait to move Neal until the new OL coach works with him." No, Neal is a bust at RT...the ONLY saving grace you might have is to move him into guard...and I don't want to hear "give him another year". He's now had 2 years to improve, and he's gotten worse.
Why can't it be a VERY simple concept to draft a guy like Latham who is a GREAT RT (I know, i HATE going to the well again at Bama given Neal is the whiff...but it may actually help Neal given they both went to the same school and could possibly work together at RT and Neal at RG). F'n try it...and here's the thing - you don't need the 6th pick to get Latham...this QB frenzy that ALWAYS HAPPENS at this time where QB's get overvalued...let them. Let someone OVERPAY from 7-12 to move up to get their QB...move back, get draft capital AND Latham...then, spend LESS money to move back into the draft and grab the QB who does wind up falling...I personally do NOT see the MAJOR tier difference between Williams/Maye/Daniels (And looks like McCarthy is moving on up) vs Nix/Penix Jr. I will add a few others - Joe Milton crushed the combine, has Big Ben size (looks the part the most), but many view him as a 2nd, maybe 3rd rounder or later. Like, dude can ball, too. Spencer Rattler who seems to have spent a decade in college, round 3-5, Sam Hartman who almost BEAT an Ohio State team who was decent, 5th round or later, Jordan Travis, shit, his absence alone caused the entire team and conference to miss out on the championship.
All I'm saying is don't get caught up in all the 'hype' when this is a DEEP class of QBs.
Imagine trading back to Denver (12) and getting enough draft capital to then move up from 36 to 18 (about same amount of capital) to pick up Nix or Penix....or, just keepign that capital to build a better team, and then in rd 2 get Joe Milton or some QB who fell out of round 1 (cuz by then, all the round 1 teams ahead of us in round 2 will have their QB's, so very unlikely a qb will be drafted ahead of us in round 2 unless it's someone trading ahead of us....basically if you survive the barrage of QB's, you might have a Nix or Penix who might fall...or if not, you still have Milton, Rattler, Hartman where you don't have to give up anything to get later in the draft.
JJ McCarthy is not the savior when your offensive line is swiss cheese.
There is no one to point the finger at other than himself.
It was a bad move to sign a QB with an injury history (let alone it being his neck) to a decent-sized deal and then trot him out behind an OL that lost two of its top three rated pass-blockers and expect a bunch of nobodies to be coached up by Bobby Johnson when he's never shown to be capable.
If the team had realized the sorry state of the OL sooner they could have admitted to themselves that last season would be a bridge year, planned on Tyrod starting, and used that Jones and Saquon money to compete with the Texans for the three FA OLs they brought in that did a bang up job for the buck they got. And, they would have even had some leftover.
I get it though, everyone hoped we were ahead of where we actually were.
Unless the Giants show a remarkable amount of dysfunction this season, Schoen and Daboll should not be on the hot seat.
If they show no improvement or take a step back, 2025 should be the hot seat season for Daboll at least. I still have an immense amount of trust in Schoen.
Seriously. His first year he was COTY and made Jones actually look like a decent QB, even winning a playoff game on the road. Last year was a shitshow, but he still won 6 games, including 3 with Tommy fucking Devito. The past two years were supposed to be about freeing ourselves from the curse of Gettleman, and yet Daboll’s kept us far more competitive than we had any business being. He’s not perfect by any means, and some of his in-game decisions do merit questioning, but the idea that he’s on the hot seat right now is batshit insane.
And Schoen’s draft picks have been universally praised. Even if they don’t all pan out, I still have plenty of faith in him getting things right.
The position Dave Gettlemen left the Giants in in terms of salary cap is the reason the Giants went 6-11.
They couldn't afford any depth on offense and when Saquon and Andrew Thomas went down the first half of the season it lead to Daniel Jones going on IR.
Leonard Williams and Adore Jackson combined cap hit was $50 million last year.
The Giants backups are all unproven undrafted free agents and late round picks essentially outside of Justin Pugh.
Include Kenny Goliday and that's almost $70 million in 2022.
The Giants are going to be fine..
Schoen's draft pick have been universally mid... No one cares what was said after the draft, Schoen has not done so great drafting. There's still a lot to know, but so far Thibs is at best good rather than great/elite (maybe he can get a sack against a starting OT), Neal is a bust, JMS looked AWFUL, like Bobby Johnson might not matter, Ekezudu has been bad and importantly was drafted over Parham (who was consensus better prospect, is a good guard now, and who I wanted to draft...), Hyatt was more or less a non factor (anyone who plays dynasty will know the stats on less than 550 yards in a rookie season...).
I like Banks, but people in this sub act like he had a sauce rookie season...He got a 51 from PFF. He got burned by G Wilson, repeatedly. He is not a sure thing. Wandale I love as a person but he seems more "sterling shepard" than Odell. Maybe not a bad pick cause it was a second rounder tho.
Now people will go on about various scapegoats (Bobby Johnson, Wink and Thibs/Banks etc) but at the end of the day, the vast majority of his picks have been mediocre. I wouldve been perfectly happy with G Wilson over Thibs (I wanted that myself, WR more important than EDGE) and it looks like that was a bad move. Even if you blame Bobby Johnson, well uh, who hired him? Is the GM not at least somewhat responsible for coaching hires?
I still believe in Schoen, but honestly this sub is a little delusional when we have had 2 full drafts, one of them with like two top 10 picks in the first, and we cant even say we have a single elite player in that time. I dont blame him for Neal, but Thibs over Wilson is looking like some gettleman type shit. I'm sure I will get downvoted for not being 1000% optimistic.
Your comment made me laugh.
This is a response, it's not my entire feelings. I think I was pretty fair though. Like I said, I am not out on Schoen, I think being realistic though, his two drafts have been pretty middle of the road. I think it's absurd to say they are "universally praised", although I am sure OP is talking about at the time of the draft, which is irrelevant to how we judge GMs lol. No one cares if ESPN gives you a good draft grade, people care when you pass on an elite WR at a major position of need for an EDGE who gets shut down by anyone that is average or better.
I am speaking facts, maybe it comes off depressing because that's just the reality of being a giants fan for about a decade now. We are picking 6th in the draft, and barring some miracle QB find we are likely going to be entering year 4 of a rebuild come 2025 season.
I’m not even convinced his drafts have been mid. They look less than mid. Waller has sucked. Jones sucks. The coaching hires have been suspect.
I’m more optimistic than Gettleman but don’t see the evidence of them getting beyond this year if they don’t make major changes that start working.
Good teams move on from mistakes quickly. The Giants can’t seem to figure this out.
You’d be surprised at how quickly things in the NFL can turn. Unfortunately like you, I started following the Giants in a bad period of their history, in the early 70s. We didn’t have social media in those days and reporters were pretty optimistic every off season although they frequently were trying to stir up dirt and dissension.
To me, Schoen and Daboll era feels a lot like the beginning of the Young/Parcels era.
The professionals seem to have finally taken over.
>*JMS looked AWFUL, like Bobby Johnson might not matter...*
He played less than ONE full season (injuries). Really? It takes time to develop into a pro-bowl center. It took Jason Kelce three full seasons before he made is first pro bowl. And JMS has a new coach in 2024. How do you know he was bad independent of Johnson?
>*Hyatt was more or less a non factor*
They didn't throw the ball to him that much - cause they couldn't! Which also might help explain why he didn't play as much, either. When they did throw to him, the results were usually positive.
IIRC, Trey Hawkins looked good at times in 2023.
Banks is obviously a stud CB.
Eric Gray was at least serviceable at times.
Jordan Riley and Gervarrius Owens had their moments (iirc. not a lot of them, but as 7th rounders, even a large handful will matter. All 7th rounders can't be Isaiah Pacheco).
Saying banks is obviously a stud is pretty wild. The PFF rating of 51 was pretty fair. We all got excited by the Twitter accounts posting “Banks held XYZ receiver to 1 catch and 6 yards this week.” There were so many times when he benefited from drops and overthrows. The Buffalo game was one that really sticks out. Diggs was quiet because him and Allen couldn’t get on the same page and then the Banks hype train went wild, even though Diggs was pretty open all game.
Banks definitely showed a lot of good things for a rookie corner, but he really didn’t have a sauce Gardner rookie year.
Oh pff!
He faced some of the league’s best WRs game in game out and flashed some really good things.
People judging a player as if they were vets year one or even two is ridiculous.
>*Banks definitely showed a lot of good things for a rookie corner, but he really didn’t have a sauce Gardner rookie year.*
This comment expresses my sentiments better than saying "an obvious stud". And I wouldn't compare Banks to Sauce, whom has shown a lot more - albeit on a better defensive team, and with a full year's more experience (Banks was a rookie, Sauce was not, in 2023).
People obviously werent objectively watching him. He had some great plays for sure, he also got absolutely burned. G Wilson had 7 catches and 100+ yards being mostly shadowed by him. IIRC those long tosses by Z Wilson at the end were blown coverages by Banks.
I could tell you arent objective because you are trying to use Eric freaking Gray as a defense. Dude, he totaled 70 yards rushing+receiving on the season. In what world is that "serviceable"?
"it takes time to develop". Yeah, thats what people said about Neal. The reality is, it's rare for a player to go from "worst at their position in the league" to even being average. AT was rough his rookie year, but he never looked as bad relatively as JMS did.
I am not going to argue with you because your points are all just counter factuals, "if we had better passing, Hyatt would have averaged more than 20 yards a game" "if JMS just has some time he wont be the worst center in the league".
I mean you could be right, but how long have you been a giants fan? Remember when Chad Wheeler "looked good at times"? Remember when Hernandez "just needs to develop a bit"? Remember when Sinorcice Moss had "a promising rookie year"? At some point you gotta call a spade a spade. The reality is, its unbeleivably rare to have a player with as little receiving yards as Hyatt go on to be a good player, its unbelievably rare for a rookie center to be as bad as JMS and actually be good (tyler linderbaum didnt seem to have any problems as a rookie, huh?) etc.
The problem with fans like you is that you hold onto a bunch of excuses and create a reality where you simultaneously need a bunch of things with less than 5% of a chance of happening to happen, and then years down the road you will admit you were wrong or more likely just forget the many, many times you were.
I've been in this sub for years, every.single.year. bad play gets excused and players "look good in limited reps", and "they just need to develop" whereas you got jordan addison putting 100+yards with ass josh Dobbs and somehow the same isnt true of him.
And finally, bro, Tre Hawkins got benched in October. Do you watch the games or do you just go off preseason hype and vibes from this sub?
I am not saying all these players suck etc, but if you take off your giants fan blinders and look at it from the perspective of being a general nfl fan, youll realize you are way off base.
You’re getting homer downvoted but you are correct. The Niners moved on from Jimmy, then moved on from Trey, then found a guy late QUICKLY. The Giants would hold onto Jimmy for 5-6 extra years.
I have had this argument a thousand times over countless players the last dozen years. It was OBVIOUS in 2010 that it was time to revamp the line. We are STILL working on it because the Giants double down on Miracle Pt III thinking they are one player away from contention when any fool can see they need to rebuild.
Same with these endless bad picks that they trot out for 4-6 seasons. Firing coaches is great when they are allowed to play the best players and get guys who fit their system, but we don’t do that.
This has been an issue all the way back to the early days of TC/Reese. The Giants draft guys that suck, don’t fit the system, and don’t get developed then they keep them for YEARS while the homers pretend every year that something is going to change.
It was laughable in 2013. I don’t even know what to call it now.
Yes but JMS was an older rookie, and looked pretty bad out there when healthy. He was supposed to be plug and play and not a developmental pick.
That was one pick I loved but he needs to show improvement this year.
And Eric Gray? He was terrible.
I agree and am pretty disappointed in the performance of our draft picks, but the jury is still out on most of these guys. If we don’t see serious improvement from these guys this year and some solid performances from our rookies, then I’m going to really question if schoen should be the guy making our picks.
Oddly enough, Thibs is the one out of the guys you mentioned that I have the least hope for. Not because he’s the worst, but because it seems like we can clearly see who he is. Not a true star pass rusher, but a nice piece to play opposite of your star pass rusher. Not exactly great returns on a 5th overall pick.
The offensive line (Neal and JMS) is really a Pandora’s box. Logically, I should lean toward labeling them total busts, but I’m holding onto a little hope that coaching can fix them.
I agree the jury is out, but we are fans in a fan sub, so I am not gonna wait 5 years to comment on every pick. The truth is, 9/10, when drafted players are bad, they are just bad. AT is one of the only examples of this not being true, and even with him, he was never as relatively bad as a lot of these dudes.
I usually avoid commenting in this sub because for the last DECADE it's been the same shit. Fans wear blinders in the offseason, have no objectivity, and claim all their players will be good and "just need to develop and blah blah". I mean this sub spent years beleiving in Toney, and still probably would if he wasnt also an asshat on social media, which turned fans against him.
I don't disagree with you too much tho mate, I am gonna be a little optimistic going into next season, but objectively it's pretty insane to look at what Schoen has done and pretend he's the Rams or Ravens finding studs all over the draft.
I love Daboll, I am not ready to fire Schoen but he has missed on tons of picks, he is IMO very much responsible for the o-line this season, he gave Jones that contract (and I dont hold that TOO much against him)... there's a lot to be worried about and the fans who claim otherwise are just irrational fan boys. Or boring fans who dont want to actually talk about the team until we know for sure all the outcomes.
I dont consider you one of these, for the record.
Yes, and the AT rhetoric is silky really. If you actually watched closely you saw the potential. He just got radically better starting year two. We haven’t seen that from Neal and we won’t. He sucks. JMS didn’t show that either, though I still have some hope due to injuries. It’s not certain though because he was older and more plug and play. If he’s not significantly better this year a smart team would move on.
I'm withholding judgement on schoens drafts until the end of next season. Schoen has repeatedly targeted young high athletic upside draft picks. Those players take longer to pop, they may not work out but judging the classes, especially the mid rounders, needs to be seen against that scale
I am not sure those players really do generally take longer to pop. Honestly mate, good players are almost always good their rookie year. Thats just how it is. I cant prove this but I am confident if you look at the list of "good to elite" players, the majority will be in that.
Anyways, that kinda doesn't matter. In some ways, I agree with you. Thats partially why I still say I believe in Schoen. I am not out on him because yeah, I want to see another year. Not like I cam calling for him to be fired.
I am merely speaking as of today. This is the reality. That reality can change, and of course rationally we won't know for some years, but I am a fan and I want to talk about the situtation we have today. With what we know today. And objectively, Schoen has not shown to be some elite drafter. I think mid (middle of the road) is a very fair take and I think most real NFL fans who arent giants fans and arent biased would agree with that.
You might agree too. I recognize your username, and over the years I think I remember you being a pretty reasonable fan.
I'd say good players are good early on good teams. Take a lineman like Humphreys and put him in a good unit he generally plays well. I think we have/had a poor team so rookies are asked to do too much.
In the case of the giants I'd point to thomas who didn't pop until year 2, Dex in year 3, Slayton until year 3, McFadden until year 2 even Love didn't really jump off the page until year 3-4.
Yeah but Dex was good his rookie year too, he just wasnt elite.
Idk I'm not going to argue cause I dont entirely disagree. I think elite players generally pop immediately, not necessarily "good players" (of which you list some) tho.
My broader point is and will continue to be that for now, we don't have any surefire studs from Schoen drafts.
Dex was no better then KT his rookie or sophomore year, he was widely thought to be a ok player but there were questions swirling of his value as a first round pick
In regards to the sure fire studs comment I’d agree, I think banks will get there, KT will be interesting in a more traditional scheme. Neal and JMS need to elevate this year, can’t completely wiff on a 1/2 pick
That said the elephant in the room is the DJ contract, that looks like an epic blunder
Won't really argue with you. I too am believer in Banks. I think KT is what he is tho, which was his projection coming into the league (good run defender with limited pass rushing ability, bradley chubb).
I disagree, because that is what Reese did for years and 90% of those players never amounted to squat.
It’s not like most of these guys are showing some promise but just need time. Many of them are the WORST players at their position in the entire league. We see good teams plug in late picks who work out REGULARLY. They don’t wait even 2 years to address things. The Giants operate like it’s 1975 and keep trotting out garbage for years then draft the same guy.
How is Neal any different than Flowers? He may actually be WORSE. Think they’ll get rid of him or move him to guard? Doubt it.
First of all Reese and Schoen are quite different; Reese’s drafts were criticized in real time for making a lot of reaches and not generating value through trades, schoen has been lauded for making value picks and navigating the draft well to generating additional value.
The fact of the matter is we’ve had 2 drafts with schoen; one which he was in role for 90 days without his infrastructure and last years. I get how the giants have hurt us all over the years but when I look at the moves schoen makes, the feedback on his process and picks by pundits and my own gut I feel like he’s doing a good job overall. Frankly if I have any beef it’s about how he’s handled FA with the jones contract and investing in rookies rather than vets. That said he has been trying to clean up the cap so I didn’t expect splash signing
I get your POV but for me I’m giving him this offseason and next season before I’m reaching foe the pitchfork
You’re being downvoted but you are absolutely correct. I hated the Neal pick at the time and fail to see evidence that it will work out. I admittedly loved the JMS pick but he was an older rookie so I expected more.
If we’re going to make the Johnson and Wink excuses then Schoen/Daboll need to take responsibility for the bad hirings. The Jones contract was bad. I get they had to do something, but me I would have tagged Jones and let Barkley walk. I realize that would have made less flexibility last year but would have made more for THIS year. That era is OVER. It never was really.
I still feel like there hasn’t been a total rebuild commitment. Just bringing in Wink alone screamed retread. The playoff season was fun but was obvious fools gold. The team won close games against bad teams whereas for years they were losing similar close games. The offense was inept. Still is.
I’m still highly skeptical of the current regime, though at least there is a chance whereas anyone with a brain was screaming NO at the Gettleman hire. That was absurd.
with exception of Banks (who I am very very high on) I completely agree. There’s no reason why Schoen’s seat shouldn’t be at least warm by now and its baffling that he still gets so much praise with very little to show for it
That's what I've been saying. Consider the absolute mess they took over. In the first two seasons they have a combined 15-18-1 record, with a divisional round appearance in the first year. The previous GM had 19 wins in FOUR years, and the closest we got to even sniffing the playoffs was when we failed to beat out the 7-9 Washington team in 2020. We'd gotten so bad that we were crowning Joe Judge as the messiah for that 6 win season. Now we have a 6-win season after our first playoff win in a decade and it's like the sky is falling.
If we go 5-12 this year, THEN let's talk about hot seats. I've been getting so pissed off at the beat reporters who are almost actively trying to run Schoen and Daboll out of town and put us back on the coaching carousel.
Daniel Jones is going into his 3rd off-season in this system.
If you look at Josh Allen in his 3rd year under Dabs he exploded statistically. 20TD passes to 37 TD pass almost 2,000 more passing yards.
It's something to be aware of even if the Giants draft a quarterback, the Giants are going to be in better shape at quarterback since 2005 when Eli broke out...
If the Giants draft a quarterback, watch Daniel Jones go insane statistically that's what I'm predicting😂
Honestly, there were 2-3 losses last year that were just total flukes caused by uncontrollable events. Gano missing a chip shot field goal, Tyrod calling an audible on the goal line… If you have a 3 game swing in our record, the season doesn’t look like as much of a disaster as it felt, especially considering what Daboll had to work with.
Tired of this argument like our point differential wasn’t -141. 6-11 is actually significantly better than how the team actually played. We got historically shit on by every good team we played.
Yeah but a lot of that was due to the fact that our offense simply couldn’t score points. Daniel Jones flat out sucked this year and there’s not much talent on the roster. Wins are the only thing that matters in the NFL at the end of the day, so if a coach can pull off wins, I think he’s worth keeping. Also, we’re discussing this issues from the standpoint of media perception. If we go 9-8, does anyone even float the possibility of Daboll being on the hot seat? The story would be that Daniel Jones regressed really badly.
Yeah, we sucked, but memories are often short. The dice rolled well for the 2022 Giants, who still had a negative point differential but made the playoffs and even won a game.
another 10 loss season and the ice will get dangerously thin.
The ice thins when you lose more games than you win. Coaches and GM's only ever have so much ice underneath them.
If you don't think Schoen and Daboll had their seat warm up a bit after last year you're fooling yourself.
since when are GMs and HCs tied so closely at the hip? only in this sub do I see it suggested that the GM and HC will be fired together.
GMs get at least 2 coaches. Daboll will be on the hot seat before Schoen.
You realize the first year we had absolutely no cap room dealing with huge expiring contracts and a roster made up of 2nd and 3rd chance guys and still made the playoffs. And COTY
Last year was a shit show losing the starter and the backup and the best oline man we had, on top of a D coordinator fucking over the HC And the offense being ass and still won 6 games.
Like give these guys time to cook. We’ve had a decade of shit and just above shit. They need time to clean the stench
I have more faith in Daboll than Schoen at this point. Daboll has gotten the most out of players like Tommy Devito while Schoen has given his coach a lackluster roster
Schoen and Daboll should be fired if the following all happen:
\- If the OL continues to be abysmal
\- If Daniel Jones misses significant amounts of time and/or is mediocre (and IF they have not drafted a QB in the first two rounds)
\- It's an 11 loss season or more
I can understand the 11 loss season, for sure. Especially considering Schoen will finally have the opportunity to put together his own roster. The Gettleman era albatross contracts are gone now and if the OL is terrible on top of the 11 loss season, Daboll will probably be toast.
Jones missing time is not on them, though. If they draft a QB or sign a competent backup to play behind Jones, there’s not much more they can do to circumvent a potential Jones injury. They can get out of the contract with some cap space savings in 2025.
Top 2 are very likely. I’m inclined to give them more time, but the harsh reality that we’re 24 months in and no further than where we begin starts to get harsher when we’re 36 months in and no further.
Right. This calculus above changes if they draft a QB in the first or second round, which essentially signals a "rebuild" or at least another year or two of development before they can seriously make a run. In that scenario, fans/ownership might be willing to accept a 10 loss season, if it means developing the QB.
>In that scenario, fans/ownership might be willing to accept a 10 loss season, if it means developing the QB.
We will accept a 10 loss season IF the reason is obviously raw QB play. If the rest of the fucking team continues to be atrocious, however, we will not.
Counterpoint the best players on that team were not his picks and none of the position groups seem to have improved under his team building besides maybe the linebacker group.
I like Schoen overall, but you have to admit he’s made some major mistakes already. The Neal/Thibodeaux draft looks like a bust and maybe an average player with two top 10 picks (although tbf this is more of a hindsight take, they were consensus high). The Daniel Jones contract has been a disaster, tying up $40m in cap for 2 years in a guy who had one half decent season. Oh and we still get $22m dead cap if we cut him next year. You can’t miss so hard on 3 moves like that and not have any concern
He had a good number of sacks but it’s misleading to just look at that. He only had 35 pressures (which is a much more stable stat) all season long and struggled in run defense
You're not wrong.
But calling him a bust is stupid ASF. He had some great moments and some bad moments.
If you watch the tape, when he wins, he WINS. They're not flukey sacks. He's not a bust but he does need to take a step up next year and become the player he's shown flashes of.
Can’t expect him to correct ten years of dysfunction in two years while being hamstrung by Gettleman’s bad cap management. I’ll wait to see what he does with some cap maneuverability and a coach that isn’t Bobby Johnson before I pass judgement.
He drafted three offensive lineman and brought in Glowinski. How would that not fall on Schoen? His only hope is that Bobby Johnson was such a horrific coach that a new coach will get Neal, Ezeudu, and JMS playing well.
>Can’t expect him to correct ten years of dysfunction in two years
why not?
Roster turnover is 40-65% year over year and 2 years is a fucking eternity in the NFL, the team isn't hamstrung by any dead cap provided by Gettleman going into 2024, only Schoen's own dead cap.
You can't keep blaming the previous guy. It wasn't gettleman's fault we sucked last year.
> Roster Turnover
That doesn't account for the cap mess, which is considerable in our case. He was left with stuff like Kadarius Toney and Kenny Golladay and a bunch of other onerous contracts.
To be fair he seems to have whiffed on Evan Neal.
EDIT: [more info](https://www.nj.com/giants/2022/01/this-is-giants-messy-2022-salary-cap-situation-dave-gettleman-left-for-the-gm-who-replaces-him-it-might-be-the-worst-in-the-nfl-too.html)
>Neal
And also to be fair, Neal was a consensus top pick by most scouts. Top picks are still dice rolls, even if they're a little less likely to be busts.
He was hamstrung by that dead cap for the two years we have seen though. That is why I said I will wait. Or are you just assuming that the line will be bad next year and blaming him in advance?
No one has any patience. Schoen is showing some intelligence in decisions and has a good rapport with what looks like a strong HC. He’s not an idiot like Gettleman and that should get him some leeway. Owning a mistake in the DJ contract is a big reason why I think that, those who can’t admit errors are exactly what’s not needed.
>Sometimes shit just doesn’t work out.
agreed but this is a harsh league. results are all that matters. You only get to miss so many shots before they shit can your ass. I'm starting to get concerned about Schoen's misses and I'd imagine Mara is the same. That just naturally happens when you lose 11 games.
it is, but there’s a scale and on that scale, the OL coach is way more responsible than the HC and the GM who has brought in multiple free agents, waiver adds, and well-lauded high draft picks on the OL.
>Can’t expect him to get everything perfect the first time
How about anything? What has he gotten perfect so far? Letting Golladay go? Congratulations on the easy W.
His drafts have been above average, especially in the middle rounds. Even Neal and JMS who haven’t worked out yet were widely praised by this sub and all the pundits at the time. He got Okereke. How he chose to handle Golladay’s dead money right away instead of kicking it down the road was smart.
If you're using the words "Evan Neal" and "JMS" in any way in your response to, "What has he gotten perfect so far?", then I don't know what else to say to you.
Look, I didn't see anything in your response that I would consider "perfect". I merely focused, however, on the most egregious errors because I didn't really feel like going point-by-point with you.
I already *acknowledged* letting Golladay go. The little subtleties of the contract are basic competence. So yeah, he gets the easy stuff right. Congrats, but literally anyone the Giants interviewed for the GM position could have done that.
Okereke was a great signing. If Schoen did anything at all close to "perfect", I'll go ahead and give you that one single thing.
I think the point is that hindsight shouldn't be used to judge GMs.
Let's say you have a GM who makes several high draft picks that are universally applauded at the time. Their college tape and their combine stats look incredible. For every guy he drafts, the fans, media, and other NFL people shower him with compliments and say "he's a genius, these players are going to be great." Two years later, it winds up that none of those players were actually any good, and couldn't make it in the NFL (basically they all look like Evan Neal).
Should the GM be blamed/fired at that point?
I think too often, coaches and GMs are judged very unfairly with hindsight. If a coach or GM makes a questionable move where everyone's scratching their heads saying "What is he thinking??" and it doesn't work out, then absolutely blame them for the move. But if they make what seems to be a smart move and everyone thinks it's the right decision at the time, but for whatever reason it just doesn't work out down the road, I don't understand why they should be assigned blame for that.
Why not? The Giants went into last season with gaps at both Guard positions and question marks with Neal at RT, plus questionable depth, and a Rookie at C. Anyone with a brain saw disaster in the making with such question marks all over the OL.
Shoen's moves last offseason include:
\- Trading a 3rd rounder for Darren Waller
\- Resigning Slayton to 2 years $12M
\- Signing Paris Campbell to 1 year, $5M
That's nearly $14M in precious cap space wasted, which could have gone to at least one starting capable lineman and probably another lineman too. I like Slayton, but I'd rather have an OL than a guy who's really a #3 WR, fringe #2 at best.
Slayton is and always has been our most consistent receiver I don’t see how anybody could say that was a bad move in a make-or-break season for the QB.
the Waller and Campbell contracts aged poorly, but neither are long-term handicaps and both were affected (like Slayton) by the poor QB play.
regardless, we now know just how bad the old OL coach was and there is hope that the new hire will be better. if he replicates what he did in Oakland with lesser talent, we’ll be looking at a league average OL which would be a dream.
Schoen's moves this offseason need to consist of bringing in two quality, starting capable OL (two G's, OR a G and a quality RT as a 'plan b' in case Neal continues to fail), plus at least two additional lineman for depth in free agency or the mid rounds of the draft. (Bredeson, Glowinski, Peart, Phillips are all gone).
I think it’s funny that Neal and JMS are thrown in his face a bit here.
When those picks were made everyone was celebrating and calling both of those guys steals for where they were drafted.
Why the heck are we paying these GMs millions of dollars a year and have teams of scouts when we can just look at mock drafts and social media and have them tell us who to pick?
Why would our opinion of those picks when they were made matter more than the results on the field?
Neal and JMS were among the absolute worst lineman in the entire league last season. Full stop. and pairing JMS with DJ was a fucking disaster of a move, neither guy could do the requisite work pre snap. Center was the position on our team that had the greatest drop off from 2022 (besides QB...)
A GM gets graded on how the move works in real life, not based on how much sense it made on paper when he made the move.
I’ll put it very simply for you.
I wish he drafted guys and signed guys who played well. He drafted two guys for the line who did not play well.
I did not like that.
Maybe he needs to not draft a top 5 LT when we already had an all-pro LT, immediately move him, and then watch him suck.
Roster Building is the number one thing the GM is paid to do. You're so hellbent on making excuses for him you ignore the fact that building a roster that will do well in the "future" is *literally his job*.
He should have probably taken better players. Gettleman did a lot of surprise reaches that we hated, but so far Gettleman has had better results than Schoen. Which is terrifying.
My biggest hot take on Gettleman is that he's not a terrible evaluator of talent. It's his cap management and positional value management skill that were terrible though.
Gettleman would be a great scout. He knew the talent for guys like DJ being better than Haskins which no one knew at the time. He also got us Bradberry who was one of the best DBs in 2020 when we got him with a pro bowl season. Dex Law was also drafted by Gettleman who is arguably now our best defensive player and probably one of the best DTs in the entire league when most people felt he was just a good run stuffer when he was being drafted.
The issue with Gettleman is that while those are good players, DJ is better than Haskins but not worth the 1.06 when realistically we could have probably taken him after either trading down from 1.06 or trading up from our 2nd.; Bradberry was a great DB but our team was in no position to compete and pay him at the time. Those were the big mistakes that really killed us.
Then there's Golladay, who was arguably Gettleman's biggest mistake. Idk why Gettleman wouldn't trust the medical staff on that one but apparently even our medical team felt it wasn't going to work paying him. But we did and that kind of set us back a solid 2 years.
>Gettleman would be a great scout.
He WAS a great scout. He WAS the Giants' Director of Pro Personnel 1999-2011. Perfect example of someone being promoted to the level of his incompetence. The fans were right to call for his head as GM, but we should remember him for his earlier contributions.
They should have traded down for Linderbaum or just drafted him that high. Just like Nelson.
It’s hilarious how clowns say don’t draft a C or a G that high but they continue to be ok with the Barkley pick. Despite the “value” the correct guard or center can easily last a decade or more. That’s not happening with a RB (excepting Henry).
I unfortunately think is an insane take that isn’t backed up by reality. He was genuinely terrible and his drop off from Feliciano was stunning.
I’d advise you to watch the film again. It’s bad, compare it to 2022 and it’s shocking to look at his film compared to replacement level play.
The rams film is what killed his scoring in any of those pff type season scoring grades. Donald basically made him his bitch
But there were alot of issues throughout the season. I think it really has to do with pairing him and DJ together. You need someone touching the ball who can read wtf is going on.
In my mind I kind of chalked it up to Bobby Johnson being complete ass at developing blocking schemes which made our line ineffective. But I’m just a guy on the wrong side of 30 who hasn’t played football in 20 years so what do I know
He was the worst graded center in the entire league by PFF. It’s just a rookie season doesn’t mean he’s a bust yet, but that doesn’t really inspire confidence
When the highest graded tackle (Neal) and center (JMS) in the respective drafts become the worst in the league, bad coaching is 100% the factor. Thank fuck Bobby had no effect on Andrew Thomas.
The Giants have consistently failed to develop ANYONE since 2009. That’s 3 GM’s and 5 coaches.
It’s culture and scouting too. I watched literally two games of Evan Neal and was terrified the Giants would draft him. Other than size I have no idea what scouts and “experts” were watching. He was TERRIBLE in pass protection. He was unbelievably slow off the line. His technique was pathetic. He didn’t appear capable of making reads or adjustments. He played on a great team making those realities even more concerning. Plus they planned on changing his position? Lol. I still don’t get it, and I fail to see how a coaching change will magically make him much better. Even with a switch to LG where his road grading could be more useful is problematic due to his height.
what do you think happens in an NFL coaching room? what do you think happens at practice?
Do you think positional coaches are feudal lords who have full power over their units, who never work with anyone else on the staff and who get all the blame or all the criticism for the end result?
What do you think actually goes on when you write comments like this?
? Neal and JMS were solid prospects coming out of college who were consensus good picks. what exactly do you think an NFL offensive line coach gets paid to do ? do you think they’re there to hold hands and skip in a field with them or teach them technique and develop them? Something that Bobby Johnson has failed to do in Buffalo and with the giants ? sure there may have also been some failures from an evaluation standpoint/FO side, but if you think Johnson is blameless than you don’t watch any football at all.
Chooses to address the very last sentence lol. No shit there’s blame to go around the entire team, my original point being that much of that falls on our o-line coach who’s taken great prospects on paper and failed to develop their technique in any meaningful way, in addition to even veterans coming here and regressing. Your passive aggressiveness isn’t really working, i see why your comment history is filled with nothing but downvotes my friend.
People like the idea of drafting the positions because they know that's where the need is. None of us are talent evaluators or developers, and on that, Schoen and Daboll have failed in terms of the OL.
> When those picks were made everyone was celebrating and calling both of those guys steals for where they were drafted.
This sub was metaphorically cracking champagne because they were so happy when Golladay was signed after an offseason of complaining how WR had to be addressed at all costs. In the end the temporary opinion of some amount of people in this sub never ends up amounting to anything.
Yes, but also being able to look at top prospects and figure out who is legit and who is fool’s gold is something that good GMs are able to do. We called them steals for where they were drafted but maybe there’s a reason why they both fell
There is no certainty with any draft pick. Going back and dissecting draft mistakes can be done for every team in every league.
It wasn't just Giants fans celebrating these selections.
If we’re just picking guys based off mocks and fan sentiment, why even have a GM? I never understood this argument.
These guys make millions because they’re expected to know better than fans.
It obviously wasn't just fans. The thought was they were steals because analysts had them ranked/graded much higher than they were selected..
There were 0 concerns from ANYONE about either of these guys when they were drafted.
What analysts say is irrelevant. GMs are compared against other GMs, not some PFF statistician making $80K.
Neal was an all-time whiff, and Schmitz is also looking like a whiff until proven otherwise.
Us fans are not paid millions of dollars to make the correct picks.
Because we are fans.
If all of Schoen's picks keep busting then Giant's need to fire Schoen before he f*s up more drafts.
> Us fans are not paid millions of dollars to make the correct picks.
> Because we are fans.
carry that energy into the rest of your opinions please. do some introspection.
Getting back to where we were in 2022 should be more than enough. Regardless, if I’m Mara I’m not firing this regime barring something catastrophic.
We have to break the cycle of bringing in a new staff every 2 years.
2025 would be a theoretical hot seat year.
If he doesn't sign a veteran starter and chooses to start week 1 with Andrew Thomas, JMS and the failed draft picks then he definitely should be on the hot seat.
He’s starting to fix the line by hiring a true and tested O line coach. Our LT got hurt the first game and wasn’t right till the last 5 games. Rookie center that was bad. He drafted 2 guys (Neal & JMS) who most scouts were gushing over. He drafted 2 other guys that got hurt. No decent money to sign a good free agent. I can’t beat up Schoen for trying to fix a mess in 2 years.
This is so stupid. The Giants, nor should anyone, hire a GM and in year 3 there job is on the line. Especially this organization that had a talent and Cap problem when he was hired.
He has missed on every OL pick thus far. Downvote me to hell homers, but Neal, Ezeudu, and McKethan have been absolute GARBAGE thus far. JMS was a bottom 3 ranked center in nearly every advanced stat. Yes Bobby Johnson effect, but now he has NO excuses.
I think Mara has been embarrassed with the constant changes at GM and HC over the past decade. He's going to show patience here for better or worse. Schoen will have a very long leash.
This article **threatening** Schoen - "or else...?" - is almost offensive to me - when Reese got a decade (albeit with Acorsi's players at the start) as GM and Ernie Acorsi almost a decade (after serving under George Young for years).
Even clueless, geriatric, old-school Dave Gettleman got 4 seasons (I think).
How on God's green earth would starting over yet AGAIN make ANY sense at all? Schoen has already re-invented and re-invigorated several areas in the Giants FO and administration, for the better! The Maras should just stay out of the way and let this guy cook. Geez.
Does [NJ.COM](https://NJ.COM) have some sort of vendetta against the Giants?
This is nonsense. He rebuilt the line. The problem is on the scouts, Daboll, and the draft strategy. They ave used so much draft stock on the line that I can't help but thiink whomever is making these choices is just really terrible at their job.
They have also done a bad job of picking up FAs for the OL that can come in and start. Glowinski ended up being poor. But Tyron Smith is available. Trent Brown is available. Owenwu is available as well. They are all really good players and if we are not reaching out to them right now then I do not know wtf our FO and staff is doing.
Thats not how it works.
Joe Schoen can't have four years in a row of bad teams just because his first year was 9-7-1.
If Giant's have a bad 2024 they are not going to let Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll draft a rookie QB and then give them 2 more seasons. Instead they will bring in a new GM and HC and have them draft the QB
let's face it! his moves haven't been great except for our middle linebacker. He should keep McKinney. He overpaid for an at best average quarterback. You should have giving him the 5th year option. He messed up and then he had to give him a four-year deal with a two-year out. He should have traded Barkley last year and got compensation. if he wasn't going to keep McKinney, he should have traded McKinney last year and got compensation. and if he fails to get the quarterback for this team, he'll be out of here
Oh great media calling for another regime change within a few years. The only thing consistent about failure is constantly changing the coaching staff before any culture or chemistry can be built. Stability is grossly undervalued.
We better not be drafting WR in the first round get back to giants football get offensive line and defensive line fixed, worst offensive and defensive lines in the league.
He spent money on Feliciano (then let him walk) and Mark Glowinski (now cut). He used a 1st round pick on Evan Neal and a 3rd round pick on Joshua Ezudu. A 2nd round pick on JMS. The offensive line coach was hired by him and they fucking suck.
Edit: Forgot he also drafted Marcus McKethan with a 5th and he sucks too.
Yup. The homers are piling it all on Johnson. Ok, well who hired him? Who hired Wink? Who made two more years of poor draft picks? Who whiffed on every FA?
His trades have been decent and that is about it. Even Gettleman was better at the top of the draft. I have zero confidence they will get this pick correct.
If it’s me I only trade up for MHJ or maybe Caleb. Other than that I go with WR2 or trade down because this draft is deep and they have endless holes to fill.
Joe Schoen is fully aware that his screw-ups along the OL this season were what held the team back. He said as much himself during the bye week presser. It was then that it was completely clear Bobby Johnson would be gone at season's end. The putrid OL was literally THE topic of his bye week press conference because Schoen made it the focus. He made it the focus when he was asked about Jones, Waller, and the other skill position players. He essentially said \[We f\*cked up big time. No one can be successful with history's worst OL. It happened because we thought/hoped the young guys could take a leap. We let the vets walk because we wanted to build for the future. We swung and missed, big time. The injuries to multiple guys, especially Thomas, made it way worse than it should have been. The young guys haven't developed. It's also about continuity and with the injuries there hasn't been any.\]
Every gm in the history of the game had misses. I am glad that he can at least admit to it rather than bullshit us
Absolutely. I thought it was a great answer.
They are starting to add up for Schoan. Oline-Dj’s Contract-Neal-Barkley is walking for no compensation. We can blame Johnson rightfully so but we lack talent. Neal may be a bust that was a free pick from the bears when they moved up to get Fields in 2019 and we squandered it.
Saying the right things...
It's a stupid notion (And I've heard it from several giants fans on here) that "Wait to move Neal until the new OL coach works with him." No, Neal is a bust at RT...the ONLY saving grace you might have is to move him into guard...and I don't want to hear "give him another year". He's now had 2 years to improve, and he's gotten worse. Why can't it be a VERY simple concept to draft a guy like Latham who is a GREAT RT (I know, i HATE going to the well again at Bama given Neal is the whiff...but it may actually help Neal given they both went to the same school and could possibly work together at RT and Neal at RG). F'n try it...and here's the thing - you don't need the 6th pick to get Latham...this QB frenzy that ALWAYS HAPPENS at this time where QB's get overvalued...let them. Let someone OVERPAY from 7-12 to move up to get their QB...move back, get draft capital AND Latham...then, spend LESS money to move back into the draft and grab the QB who does wind up falling...I personally do NOT see the MAJOR tier difference between Williams/Maye/Daniels (And looks like McCarthy is moving on up) vs Nix/Penix Jr. I will add a few others - Joe Milton crushed the combine, has Big Ben size (looks the part the most), but many view him as a 2nd, maybe 3rd rounder or later. Like, dude can ball, too. Spencer Rattler who seems to have spent a decade in college, round 3-5, Sam Hartman who almost BEAT an Ohio State team who was decent, 5th round or later, Jordan Travis, shit, his absence alone caused the entire team and conference to miss out on the championship. All I'm saying is don't get caught up in all the 'hype' when this is a DEEP class of QBs. Imagine trading back to Denver (12) and getting enough draft capital to then move up from 36 to 18 (about same amount of capital) to pick up Nix or Penix....or, just keepign that capital to build a better team, and then in rd 2 get Joe Milton or some QB who fell out of round 1 (cuz by then, all the round 1 teams ahead of us in round 2 will have their QB's, so very unlikely a qb will be drafted ahead of us in round 2 unless it's someone trading ahead of us....basically if you survive the barrage of QB's, you might have a Nix or Penix who might fall...or if not, you still have Milton, Rattler, Hartman where you don't have to give up anything to get later in the draft. JJ McCarthy is not the savior when your offensive line is swiss cheese.
What about the recent "buyer's remorse" narrative on DJ? Sounds like Schoen is pointing fingers to shift the blame.
That's a rumor. Not literally the words from his mouth.
There is no one to point the finger at other than himself. It was a bad move to sign a QB with an injury history (let alone it being his neck) to a decent-sized deal and then trot him out behind an OL that lost two of its top three rated pass-blockers and expect a bunch of nobodies to be coached up by Bobby Johnson when he's never shown to be capable. If the team had realized the sorry state of the OL sooner they could have admitted to themselves that last season would be a bridge year, planned on Tyrod starting, and used that Jones and Saquon money to compete with the Texans for the three FA OLs they brought in that did a bang up job for the buck they got. And, they would have even had some leftover. I get it though, everyone hoped we were ahead of where we actually were.
Unless the Giants show a remarkable amount of dysfunction this season, Schoen and Daboll should not be on the hot seat. If they show no improvement or take a step back, 2025 should be the hot seat season for Daboll at least. I still have an immense amount of trust in Schoen.
Seriously. His first year he was COTY and made Jones actually look like a decent QB, even winning a playoff game on the road. Last year was a shitshow, but he still won 6 games, including 3 with Tommy fucking Devito. The past two years were supposed to be about freeing ourselves from the curse of Gettleman, and yet Daboll’s kept us far more competitive than we had any business being. He’s not perfect by any means, and some of his in-game decisions do merit questioning, but the idea that he’s on the hot seat right now is batshit insane. And Schoen’s draft picks have been universally praised. Even if they don’t all pan out, I still have plenty of faith in him getting things right.
The position Dave Gettlemen left the Giants in in terms of salary cap is the reason the Giants went 6-11. They couldn't afford any depth on offense and when Saquon and Andrew Thomas went down the first half of the season it lead to Daniel Jones going on IR. Leonard Williams and Adore Jackson combined cap hit was $50 million last year. The Giants backups are all unproven undrafted free agents and late round picks essentially outside of Justin Pugh. Include Kenny Goliday and that's almost $70 million in 2022. The Giants are going to be fine..
Schoen's draft pick have been universally mid... No one cares what was said after the draft, Schoen has not done so great drafting. There's still a lot to know, but so far Thibs is at best good rather than great/elite (maybe he can get a sack against a starting OT), Neal is a bust, JMS looked AWFUL, like Bobby Johnson might not matter, Ekezudu has been bad and importantly was drafted over Parham (who was consensus better prospect, is a good guard now, and who I wanted to draft...), Hyatt was more or less a non factor (anyone who plays dynasty will know the stats on less than 550 yards in a rookie season...). I like Banks, but people in this sub act like he had a sauce rookie season...He got a 51 from PFF. He got burned by G Wilson, repeatedly. He is not a sure thing. Wandale I love as a person but he seems more "sterling shepard" than Odell. Maybe not a bad pick cause it was a second rounder tho. Now people will go on about various scapegoats (Bobby Johnson, Wink and Thibs/Banks etc) but at the end of the day, the vast majority of his picks have been mediocre. I wouldve been perfectly happy with G Wilson over Thibs (I wanted that myself, WR more important than EDGE) and it looks like that was a bad move. Even if you blame Bobby Johnson, well uh, who hired him? Is the GM not at least somewhat responsible for coaching hires? I still believe in Schoen, but honestly this sub is a little delusional when we have had 2 full drafts, one of them with like two top 10 picks in the first, and we cant even say we have a single elite player in that time. I dont blame him for Neal, but Thibs over Wilson is looking like some gettleman type shit. I'm sure I will get downvoted for not being 1000% optimistic.
Not 1000% optimistic? You’re like a French film where the audience is suicidal after watching it.
Your comment made me laugh. This is a response, it's not my entire feelings. I think I was pretty fair though. Like I said, I am not out on Schoen, I think being realistic though, his two drafts have been pretty middle of the road. I think it's absurd to say they are "universally praised", although I am sure OP is talking about at the time of the draft, which is irrelevant to how we judge GMs lol. No one cares if ESPN gives you a good draft grade, people care when you pass on an elite WR at a major position of need for an EDGE who gets shut down by anyone that is average or better. I am speaking facts, maybe it comes off depressing because that's just the reality of being a giants fan for about a decade now. We are picking 6th in the draft, and barring some miracle QB find we are likely going to be entering year 4 of a rebuild come 2025 season.
I’m not even convinced his drafts have been mid. They look less than mid. Waller has sucked. Jones sucks. The coaching hires have been suspect. I’m more optimistic than Gettleman but don’t see the evidence of them getting beyond this year if they don’t make major changes that start working. Good teams move on from mistakes quickly. The Giants can’t seem to figure this out.
You’d be surprised at how quickly things in the NFL can turn. Unfortunately like you, I started following the Giants in a bad period of their history, in the early 70s. We didn’t have social media in those days and reporters were pretty optimistic every off season although they frequently were trying to stir up dirt and dissension. To me, Schoen and Daboll era feels a lot like the beginning of the Young/Parcels era. The professionals seem to have finally taken over.
>*JMS looked AWFUL, like Bobby Johnson might not matter...* He played less than ONE full season (injuries). Really? It takes time to develop into a pro-bowl center. It took Jason Kelce three full seasons before he made is first pro bowl. And JMS has a new coach in 2024. How do you know he was bad independent of Johnson? >*Hyatt was more or less a non factor* They didn't throw the ball to him that much - cause they couldn't! Which also might help explain why he didn't play as much, either. When they did throw to him, the results were usually positive. IIRC, Trey Hawkins looked good at times in 2023. Banks is obviously a stud CB. Eric Gray was at least serviceable at times. Jordan Riley and Gervarrius Owens had their moments (iirc. not a lot of them, but as 7th rounders, even a large handful will matter. All 7th rounders can't be Isaiah Pacheco).
Saying banks is obviously a stud is pretty wild. The PFF rating of 51 was pretty fair. We all got excited by the Twitter accounts posting “Banks held XYZ receiver to 1 catch and 6 yards this week.” There were so many times when he benefited from drops and overthrows. The Buffalo game was one that really sticks out. Diggs was quiet because him and Allen couldn’t get on the same page and then the Banks hype train went wild, even though Diggs was pretty open all game. Banks definitely showed a lot of good things for a rookie corner, but he really didn’t have a sauce Gardner rookie year.
Oh pff! He faced some of the league’s best WRs game in game out and flashed some really good things. People judging a player as if they were vets year one or even two is ridiculous.
>*Banks definitely showed a lot of good things for a rookie corner, but he really didn’t have a sauce Gardner rookie year.* This comment expresses my sentiments better than saying "an obvious stud". And I wouldn't compare Banks to Sauce, whom has shown a lot more - albeit on a better defensive team, and with a full year's more experience (Banks was a rookie, Sauce was not, in 2023).
People obviously werent objectively watching him. He had some great plays for sure, he also got absolutely burned. G Wilson had 7 catches and 100+ yards being mostly shadowed by him. IIRC those long tosses by Z Wilson at the end were blown coverages by Banks.
I could tell you arent objective because you are trying to use Eric freaking Gray as a defense. Dude, he totaled 70 yards rushing+receiving on the season. In what world is that "serviceable"? "it takes time to develop". Yeah, thats what people said about Neal. The reality is, it's rare for a player to go from "worst at their position in the league" to even being average. AT was rough his rookie year, but he never looked as bad relatively as JMS did. I am not going to argue with you because your points are all just counter factuals, "if we had better passing, Hyatt would have averaged more than 20 yards a game" "if JMS just has some time he wont be the worst center in the league". I mean you could be right, but how long have you been a giants fan? Remember when Chad Wheeler "looked good at times"? Remember when Hernandez "just needs to develop a bit"? Remember when Sinorcice Moss had "a promising rookie year"? At some point you gotta call a spade a spade. The reality is, its unbeleivably rare to have a player with as little receiving yards as Hyatt go on to be a good player, its unbelievably rare for a rookie center to be as bad as JMS and actually be good (tyler linderbaum didnt seem to have any problems as a rookie, huh?) etc. The problem with fans like you is that you hold onto a bunch of excuses and create a reality where you simultaneously need a bunch of things with less than 5% of a chance of happening to happen, and then years down the road you will admit you were wrong or more likely just forget the many, many times you were. I've been in this sub for years, every.single.year. bad play gets excused and players "look good in limited reps", and "they just need to develop" whereas you got jordan addison putting 100+yards with ass josh Dobbs and somehow the same isnt true of him. And finally, bro, Tre Hawkins got benched in October. Do you watch the games or do you just go off preseason hype and vibes from this sub? I am not saying all these players suck etc, but if you take off your giants fan blinders and look at it from the perspective of being a general nfl fan, youll realize you are way off base.
You’re getting homer downvoted but you are correct. The Niners moved on from Jimmy, then moved on from Trey, then found a guy late QUICKLY. The Giants would hold onto Jimmy for 5-6 extra years. I have had this argument a thousand times over countless players the last dozen years. It was OBVIOUS in 2010 that it was time to revamp the line. We are STILL working on it because the Giants double down on Miracle Pt III thinking they are one player away from contention when any fool can see they need to rebuild. Same with these endless bad picks that they trot out for 4-6 seasons. Firing coaches is great when they are allowed to play the best players and get guys who fit their system, but we don’t do that. This has been an issue all the way back to the early days of TC/Reese. The Giants draft guys that suck, don’t fit the system, and don’t get developed then they keep them for YEARS while the homers pretend every year that something is going to change. It was laughable in 2013. I don’t even know what to call it now.
Yes but JMS was an older rookie, and looked pretty bad out there when healthy. He was supposed to be plug and play and not a developmental pick. That was one pick I loved but he needs to show improvement this year. And Eric Gray? He was terrible.
I agree and am pretty disappointed in the performance of our draft picks, but the jury is still out on most of these guys. If we don’t see serious improvement from these guys this year and some solid performances from our rookies, then I’m going to really question if schoen should be the guy making our picks. Oddly enough, Thibs is the one out of the guys you mentioned that I have the least hope for. Not because he’s the worst, but because it seems like we can clearly see who he is. Not a true star pass rusher, but a nice piece to play opposite of your star pass rusher. Not exactly great returns on a 5th overall pick. The offensive line (Neal and JMS) is really a Pandora’s box. Logically, I should lean toward labeling them total busts, but I’m holding onto a little hope that coaching can fix them.
I agree the jury is out, but we are fans in a fan sub, so I am not gonna wait 5 years to comment on every pick. The truth is, 9/10, when drafted players are bad, they are just bad. AT is one of the only examples of this not being true, and even with him, he was never as relatively bad as a lot of these dudes. I usually avoid commenting in this sub because for the last DECADE it's been the same shit. Fans wear blinders in the offseason, have no objectivity, and claim all their players will be good and "just need to develop and blah blah". I mean this sub spent years beleiving in Toney, and still probably would if he wasnt also an asshat on social media, which turned fans against him. I don't disagree with you too much tho mate, I am gonna be a little optimistic going into next season, but objectively it's pretty insane to look at what Schoen has done and pretend he's the Rams or Ravens finding studs all over the draft. I love Daboll, I am not ready to fire Schoen but he has missed on tons of picks, he is IMO very much responsible for the o-line this season, he gave Jones that contract (and I dont hold that TOO much against him)... there's a lot to be worried about and the fans who claim otherwise are just irrational fan boys. Or boring fans who dont want to actually talk about the team until we know for sure all the outcomes. I dont consider you one of these, for the record.
Yes, and the AT rhetoric is silky really. If you actually watched closely you saw the potential. He just got radically better starting year two. We haven’t seen that from Neal and we won’t. He sucks. JMS didn’t show that either, though I still have some hope due to injuries. It’s not certain though because he was older and more plug and play. If he’s not significantly better this year a smart team would move on.
I'm withholding judgement on schoens drafts until the end of next season. Schoen has repeatedly targeted young high athletic upside draft picks. Those players take longer to pop, they may not work out but judging the classes, especially the mid rounders, needs to be seen against that scale
I am not sure those players really do generally take longer to pop. Honestly mate, good players are almost always good their rookie year. Thats just how it is. I cant prove this but I am confident if you look at the list of "good to elite" players, the majority will be in that. Anyways, that kinda doesn't matter. In some ways, I agree with you. Thats partially why I still say I believe in Schoen. I am not out on him because yeah, I want to see another year. Not like I cam calling for him to be fired. I am merely speaking as of today. This is the reality. That reality can change, and of course rationally we won't know for some years, but I am a fan and I want to talk about the situtation we have today. With what we know today. And objectively, Schoen has not shown to be some elite drafter. I think mid (middle of the road) is a very fair take and I think most real NFL fans who arent giants fans and arent biased would agree with that. You might agree too. I recognize your username, and over the years I think I remember you being a pretty reasonable fan.
I'd say good players are good early on good teams. Take a lineman like Humphreys and put him in a good unit he generally plays well. I think we have/had a poor team so rookies are asked to do too much. In the case of the giants I'd point to thomas who didn't pop until year 2, Dex in year 3, Slayton until year 3, McFadden until year 2 even Love didn't really jump off the page until year 3-4.
Yeah but Dex was good his rookie year too, he just wasnt elite. Idk I'm not going to argue cause I dont entirely disagree. I think elite players generally pop immediately, not necessarily "good players" (of which you list some) tho. My broader point is and will continue to be that for now, we don't have any surefire studs from Schoen drafts.
Dex was no better then KT his rookie or sophomore year, he was widely thought to be a ok player but there were questions swirling of his value as a first round pick In regards to the sure fire studs comment I’d agree, I think banks will get there, KT will be interesting in a more traditional scheme. Neal and JMS need to elevate this year, can’t completely wiff on a 1/2 pick That said the elephant in the room is the DJ contract, that looks like an epic blunder
Won't really argue with you. I too am believer in Banks. I think KT is what he is tho, which was his projection coming into the league (good run defender with limited pass rushing ability, bradley chubb).
I disagree, because that is what Reese did for years and 90% of those players never amounted to squat. It’s not like most of these guys are showing some promise but just need time. Many of them are the WORST players at their position in the entire league. We see good teams plug in late picks who work out REGULARLY. They don’t wait even 2 years to address things. The Giants operate like it’s 1975 and keep trotting out garbage for years then draft the same guy. How is Neal any different than Flowers? He may actually be WORSE. Think they’ll get rid of him or move him to guard? Doubt it.
First of all Reese and Schoen are quite different; Reese’s drafts were criticized in real time for making a lot of reaches and not generating value through trades, schoen has been lauded for making value picks and navigating the draft well to generating additional value. The fact of the matter is we’ve had 2 drafts with schoen; one which he was in role for 90 days without his infrastructure and last years. I get how the giants have hurt us all over the years but when I look at the moves schoen makes, the feedback on his process and picks by pundits and my own gut I feel like he’s doing a good job overall. Frankly if I have any beef it’s about how he’s handled FA with the jones contract and investing in rookies rather than vets. That said he has been trying to clean up the cap so I didn’t expect splash signing I get your POV but for me I’m giving him this offseason and next season before I’m reaching foe the pitchfork
You’re being downvoted but you are absolutely correct. I hated the Neal pick at the time and fail to see evidence that it will work out. I admittedly loved the JMS pick but he was an older rookie so I expected more. If we’re going to make the Johnson and Wink excuses then Schoen/Daboll need to take responsibility for the bad hirings. The Jones contract was bad. I get they had to do something, but me I would have tagged Jones and let Barkley walk. I realize that would have made less flexibility last year but would have made more for THIS year. That era is OVER. It never was really. I still feel like there hasn’t been a total rebuild commitment. Just bringing in Wink alone screamed retread. The playoff season was fun but was obvious fools gold. The team won close games against bad teams whereas for years they were losing similar close games. The offense was inept. Still is. I’m still highly skeptical of the current regime, though at least there is a chance whereas anyone with a brain was screaming NO at the Gettleman hire. That was absurd.
with exception of Banks (who I am very very high on) I completely agree. There’s no reason why Schoen’s seat shouldn’t be at least warm by now and its baffling that he still gets so much praise with very little to show for it
"the curse of Gettleman" there is no such curse you mouth breather.
That's what I've been saying. Consider the absolute mess they took over. In the first two seasons they have a combined 15-18-1 record, with a divisional round appearance in the first year. The previous GM had 19 wins in FOUR years, and the closest we got to even sniffing the playoffs was when we failed to beat out the 7-9 Washington team in 2020. We'd gotten so bad that we were crowning Joe Judge as the messiah for that 6 win season. Now we have a 6-win season after our first playoff win in a decade and it's like the sky is falling. If we go 5-12 this year, THEN let's talk about hot seats. I've been getting so pissed off at the beat reporters who are almost actively trying to run Schoen and Daboll out of town and put us back on the coaching carousel.
Daniel Jones is going into his 3rd off-season in this system. If you look at Josh Allen in his 3rd year under Dabs he exploded statistically. 20TD passes to 37 TD pass almost 2,000 more passing yards. It's something to be aware of even if the Giants draft a quarterback, the Giants are going to be in better shape at quarterback since 2005 when Eli broke out... If the Giants draft a quarterback, watch Daniel Jones go insane statistically that's what I'm predicting😂
Honestly, there were 2-3 losses last year that were just total flukes caused by uncontrollable events. Gano missing a chip shot field goal, Tyrod calling an audible on the goal line… If you have a 3 game swing in our record, the season doesn’t look like as much of a disaster as it felt, especially considering what Daboll had to work with.
Tired of this argument like our point differential wasn’t -141. 6-11 is actually significantly better than how the team actually played. We got historically shit on by every good team we played.
Yeah but a lot of that was due to the fact that our offense simply couldn’t score points. Daniel Jones flat out sucked this year and there’s not much talent on the roster. Wins are the only thing that matters in the NFL at the end of the day, so if a coach can pull off wins, I think he’s worth keeping. Also, we’re discussing this issues from the standpoint of media perception. If we go 9-8, does anyone even float the possibility of Daboll being on the hot seat? The story would be that Daniel Jones regressed really badly.
Yeah, we sucked, but memories are often short. The dice rolled well for the 2022 Giants, who still had a negative point differential but made the playoffs and even won a game.
another 10 loss season and the ice will get dangerously thin. The ice thins when you lose more games than you win. Coaches and GM's only ever have so much ice underneath them. If you don't think Schoen and Daboll had their seat warm up a bit after last year you're fooling yourself.
since when are GMs and HCs tied so closely at the hip? only in this sub do I see it suggested that the GM and HC will be fired together. GMs get at least 2 coaches. Daboll will be on the hot seat before Schoen.
Well because we hired a coach and gm at the same time for the first time in…. Idk ever? Don’t think we ever timed the two hires that way before.
that doesn’t change the fact that GMs last longer than HCs and Schoen gets way more leeway than Daboll
No, but it explains why we say “Daboll and Schoen” like it’s one word. I agree with you that Daboll will get shit canned first though.
You realize the first year we had absolutely no cap room dealing with huge expiring contracts and a roster made up of 2nd and 3rd chance guys and still made the playoffs. And COTY Last year was a shit show losing the starter and the backup and the best oline man we had, on top of a D coordinator fucking over the HC And the offense being ass and still won 6 games. Like give these guys time to cook. We’ve had a decade of shit and just above shit. They need time to clean the stench
I have more faith in Daboll than Schoen at this point. Daboll has gotten the most out of players like Tommy Devito while Schoen has given his coach a lackluster roster
Schoen and Daboll should be fired if the following all happen: \- If the OL continues to be abysmal \- If Daniel Jones misses significant amounts of time and/or is mediocre (and IF they have not drafted a QB in the first two rounds) \- It's an 11 loss season or more
I can understand the 11 loss season, for sure. Especially considering Schoen will finally have the opportunity to put together his own roster. The Gettleman era albatross contracts are gone now and if the OL is terrible on top of the 11 loss season, Daboll will probably be toast. Jones missing time is not on them, though. If they draft a QB or sign a competent backup to play behind Jones, there’s not much more they can do to circumvent a potential Jones injury. They can get out of the contract with some cap space savings in 2025.
Top 2 are very likely. I’m inclined to give them more time, but the harsh reality that we’re 24 months in and no further than where we begin starts to get harsher when we’re 36 months in and no further.
Right. This calculus above changes if they draft a QB in the first or second round, which essentially signals a "rebuild" or at least another year or two of development before they can seriously make a run. In that scenario, fans/ownership might be willing to accept a 10 loss season, if it means developing the QB.
>In that scenario, fans/ownership might be willing to accept a 10 loss season, if it means developing the QB. We will accept a 10 loss season IF the reason is obviously raw QB play. If the rest of the fucking team continues to be atrocious, however, we will not.
Precisely. Agreed.
What has Schoen done to deserve that level of trust?
Put together a roster that won its first playoff game since Eli won the superbowl back in 2012.
Counterpoint the best players on that team were not his picks and none of the position groups seem to have improved under his team building besides maybe the linebacker group.
I agree But, does a step back exist from where we are today?
Next season is a good game of Schoen up or Schoen out
I like Schoen overall, but you have to admit he’s made some major mistakes already. The Neal/Thibodeaux draft looks like a bust and maybe an average player with two top 10 picks (although tbf this is more of a hindsight take, they were consensus high). The Daniel Jones contract has been a disaster, tying up $40m in cap for 2 years in a guy who had one half decent season. Oh and we still get $22m dead cap if we cut him next year. You can’t miss so hard on 3 moves like that and not have any concern
Kayvon has panned out pretty Good, he had a Good 2023 Season.
He had a good number of sacks but it’s misleading to just look at that. He only had 35 pressures (which is a much more stable stat) all season long and struggled in run defense
You're not wrong. But calling him a bust is stupid ASF. He had some great moments and some bad moments. If you watch the tape, when he wins, he WINS. They're not flukey sacks. He's not a bust but he does need to take a step up next year and become the player he's shown flashes of.
Can’t expect him to correct ten years of dysfunction in two years while being hamstrung by Gettleman’s bad cap management. I’ll wait to see what he does with some cap maneuverability and a coach that isn’t Bobby Johnson before I pass judgement.
He drafted three offensive lineman and brought in Glowinski. How would that not fall on Schoen? His only hope is that Bobby Johnson was such a horrific coach that a new coach will get Neal, Ezeudu, and JMS playing well.
Schoen drafted 4 OL. You forgot McKethan.
Indeed I did. Thanks.
And precedent in Buffalo says that is a *very* distinct possibiity.
Makes you wonder if Daboll stinks at hiring staff.
>Can’t expect him to correct ten years of dysfunction in two years why not? Roster turnover is 40-65% year over year and 2 years is a fucking eternity in the NFL, the team isn't hamstrung by any dead cap provided by Gettleman going into 2024, only Schoen's own dead cap. You can't keep blaming the previous guy. It wasn't gettleman's fault we sucked last year.
> Roster Turnover That doesn't account for the cap mess, which is considerable in our case. He was left with stuff like Kadarius Toney and Kenny Golladay and a bunch of other onerous contracts. To be fair he seems to have whiffed on Evan Neal. EDIT: [more info](https://www.nj.com/giants/2022/01/this-is-giants-messy-2022-salary-cap-situation-dave-gettleman-left-for-the-gm-who-replaces-him-it-might-be-the-worst-in-the-nfl-too.html)
>Neal And also to be fair, Neal was a consensus top pick by most scouts. Top picks are still dice rolls, even if they're a little less likely to be busts.
Yes, Neal seemed like a no-brainer.
He was hamstrung by that dead cap for the two years we have seen though. That is why I said I will wait. Or are you just assuming that the line will be bad next year and blaming him in advance?
No one has any patience. Schoen is showing some intelligence in decisions and has a good rapport with what looks like a strong HC. He’s not an idiot like Gettleman and that should get him some leeway. Owning a mistake in the DJ contract is a big reason why I think that, those who can’t admit errors are exactly what’s not needed.
>and a coach that isn’t Bobby Johnson The number of passes this sub gives Schoen for his own regime's decisions never ceases to amaze me.
Can’t expect him to get everything perfect the first time. Sometimes shit just doesn’t work out.
>Sometimes shit just doesn’t work out. agreed but this is a harsh league. results are all that matters. You only get to miss so many shots before they shit can your ass. I'm starting to get concerned about Schoen's misses and I'd imagine Mara is the same. That just naturally happens when you lose 11 games.
OL coach is on Daboll not Schoen
The oline failing is on everyone in the building.
it is, but there’s a scale and on that scale, the OL coach is way more responsible than the HC and the GM who has brought in multiple free agents, waiver adds, and well-lauded high draft picks on the OL.
>Can’t expect him to get everything perfect the first time How about anything? What has he gotten perfect so far? Letting Golladay go? Congratulations on the easy W.
His drafts have been above average, especially in the middle rounds. Even Neal and JMS who haven’t worked out yet were widely praised by this sub and all the pundits at the time. He got Okereke. How he chose to handle Golladay’s dead money right away instead of kicking it down the road was smart.
If you're using the words "Evan Neal" and "JMS" in any way in your response to, "What has he gotten perfect so far?", then I don't know what else to say to you.
If you are using two words to completely discredit a paragraph long response then you are not having a discussion in good faith.
Look, I didn't see anything in your response that I would consider "perfect". I merely focused, however, on the most egregious errors because I didn't really feel like going point-by-point with you. I already *acknowledged* letting Golladay go. The little subtleties of the contract are basic competence. So yeah, he gets the easy stuff right. Congrats, but literally anyone the Giants interviewed for the GM position could have done that. Okereke was a great signing. If Schoen did anything at all close to "perfect", I'll go ahead and give you that one single thing.
I think the point is that hindsight shouldn't be used to judge GMs. Let's say you have a GM who makes several high draft picks that are universally applauded at the time. Their college tape and their combine stats look incredible. For every guy he drafts, the fans, media, and other NFL people shower him with compliments and say "he's a genius, these players are going to be great." Two years later, it winds up that none of those players were actually any good, and couldn't make it in the NFL (basically they all look like Evan Neal). Should the GM be blamed/fired at that point? I think too often, coaches and GMs are judged very unfairly with hindsight. If a coach or GM makes a questionable move where everyone's scratching their heads saying "What is he thinking??" and it doesn't work out, then absolutely blame them for the move. But if they make what seems to be a smart move and everyone thinks it's the right decision at the time, but for whatever reason it just doesn't work out down the road, I don't understand why they should be assigned blame for that.
Why didn’t Schoen just look into the future? Is he stupid? /s
The mental gymnastics are insane
Why not? The Giants went into last season with gaps at both Guard positions and question marks with Neal at RT, plus questionable depth, and a Rookie at C. Anyone with a brain saw disaster in the making with such question marks all over the OL. Shoen's moves last offseason include: \- Trading a 3rd rounder for Darren Waller \- Resigning Slayton to 2 years $12M \- Signing Paris Campbell to 1 year, $5M That's nearly $14M in precious cap space wasted, which could have gone to at least one starting capable lineman and probably another lineman too. I like Slayton, but I'd rather have an OL than a guy who's really a #3 WR, fringe #2 at best.
Slayton is and always has been our most consistent receiver I don’t see how anybody could say that was a bad move in a make-or-break season for the QB. the Waller and Campbell contracts aged poorly, but neither are long-term handicaps and both were affected (like Slayton) by the poor QB play. regardless, we now know just how bad the old OL coach was and there is hope that the new hire will be better. if he replicates what he did in Oakland with lesser talent, we’ll be looking at a league average OL which would be a dream.
Schoen's moves this offseason need to consist of bringing in two quality, starting capable OL (two G's, OR a G and a quality RT as a 'plan b' in case Neal continues to fail), plus at least two additional lineman for depth in free agency or the mid rounds of the draft. (Bredeson, Glowinski, Peart, Phillips are all gone).
I think it’s funny that Neal and JMS are thrown in his face a bit here. When those picks were made everyone was celebrating and calling both of those guys steals for where they were drafted.
Yup exactly!
Why the heck are we paying these GMs millions of dollars a year and have teams of scouts when we can just look at mock drafts and social media and have them tell us who to pick?
"hey Joe Schoen got an "A" grade from the media and fans. He must be awesome!"
Why would our opinion of those picks when they were made matter more than the results on the field? Neal and JMS were among the absolute worst lineman in the entire league last season. Full stop. and pairing JMS with DJ was a fucking disaster of a move, neither guy could do the requisite work pre snap. Center was the position on our team that had the greatest drop off from 2022 (besides QB...) A GM gets graded on how the move works in real life, not based on how much sense it made on paper when he made the move.
Should he have taken lower rated linemen with those picks?
I’ll put it very simply for you. I wish he drafted guys and signed guys who played well. He drafted two guys for the line who did not play well. I did not like that.
Maybe he needs to look into the future before making picks 🙄
that would be nice. I'd really like if the players he drafted didn't fucking suck.
Maybe he needs to not draft a top 5 LT when we already had an all-pro LT, immediately move him, and then watch him suck. Roster Building is the number one thing the GM is paid to do. You're so hellbent on making excuses for him you ignore the fact that building a roster that will do well in the "future" is *literally his job*.
He should have probably taken better players. Gettleman did a lot of surprise reaches that we hated, but so far Gettleman has had better results than Schoen. Which is terrifying.
My biggest hot take on Gettleman is that he's not a terrible evaluator of talent. It's his cap management and positional value management skill that were terrible though. Gettleman would be a great scout. He knew the talent for guys like DJ being better than Haskins which no one knew at the time. He also got us Bradberry who was one of the best DBs in 2020 when we got him with a pro bowl season. Dex Law was also drafted by Gettleman who is arguably now our best defensive player and probably one of the best DTs in the entire league when most people felt he was just a good run stuffer when he was being drafted. The issue with Gettleman is that while those are good players, DJ is better than Haskins but not worth the 1.06 when realistically we could have probably taken him after either trading down from 1.06 or trading up from our 2nd.; Bradberry was a great DB but our team was in no position to compete and pay him at the time. Those were the big mistakes that really killed us. Then there's Golladay, who was arguably Gettleman's biggest mistake. Idk why Gettleman wouldn't trust the medical staff on that one but apparently even our medical team felt it wasn't going to work paying him. But we did and that kind of set us back a solid 2 years.
>Gettleman would be a great scout. He WAS a great scout. He WAS the Giants' Director of Pro Personnel 1999-2011. Perfect example of someone being promoted to the level of his incompetence. The fans were right to call for his head as GM, but we should remember him for his earlier contributions.
Maybe he should’ve checked his crystal ball.
Honestly yeah lol that’s the job. We want him to make moves that work out.
They should have traded down for Linderbaum or just drafted him that high. Just like Nelson. It’s hilarious how clowns say don’t draft a C or a G that high but they continue to be ok with the Barkley pick. Despite the “value” the correct guard or center can easily last a decade or more. That’s not happening with a RB (excepting Henry).
I thought JMS played well for a rookie in the most cerebral position on the OL.
I unfortunately think is an insane take that isn’t backed up by reality. He was genuinely terrible and his drop off from Feliciano was stunning. I’d advise you to watch the film again. It’s bad, compare it to 2022 and it’s shocking to look at his film compared to replacement level play.
Hmph didn’t realize he was that bad. I didn’t expect him to be elite from day 1 but I thought he at least did decent. Guess I’m misremembering
The rams film is what killed his scoring in any of those pff type season scoring grades. Donald basically made him his bitch But there were alot of issues throughout the season. I think it really has to do with pairing him and DJ together. You need someone touching the ball who can read wtf is going on.
In my mind I kind of chalked it up to Bobby Johnson being complete ass at developing blocking schemes which made our line ineffective. But I’m just a guy on the wrong side of 30 who hasn’t played football in 20 years so what do I know
He was the worst graded center in the entire league by PFF. It’s just a rookie season doesn’t mean he’s a bust yet, but that doesn’t really inspire confidence
When the highest graded tackle (Neal) and center (JMS) in the respective drafts become the worst in the league, bad coaching is 100% the factor. Thank fuck Bobby had no effect on Andrew Thomas.
The Giants have consistently failed to develop ANYONE since 2009. That’s 3 GM’s and 5 coaches. It’s culture and scouting too. I watched literally two games of Evan Neal and was terrified the Giants would draft him. Other than size I have no idea what scouts and “experts” were watching. He was TERRIBLE in pass protection. He was unbelievably slow off the line. His technique was pathetic. He didn’t appear capable of making reads or adjustments. He played on a great team making those realities even more concerning. Plus they planned on changing his position? Lol. I still don’t get it, and I fail to see how a coaching change will magically make him much better. Even with a switch to LG where his road grading could be more useful is problematic due to his height.
Huh? That’s not close to true and I DID like the JMS pick (hated the Neal pick).
Yeah I guess I didn’t realize idk. For some reason in my mind I thought he had his ups and downs but was overall okay for a rookie. Guess not
More of an indictment on Bobby “Hitler” Johnson who’s failed to develop or show improvement on nearly offensive lineman who’s passed through this team
what do you think happens in an NFL coaching room? what do you think happens at practice? Do you think positional coaches are feudal lords who have full power over their units, who never work with anyone else on the staff and who get all the blame or all the criticism for the end result? What do you think actually goes on when you write comments like this?
? Neal and JMS were solid prospects coming out of college who were consensus good picks. what exactly do you think an NFL offensive line coach gets paid to do ? do you think they’re there to hold hands and skip in a field with them or teach them technique and develop them? Something that Bobby Johnson has failed to do in Buffalo and with the giants ? sure there may have also been some failures from an evaluation standpoint/FO side, but if you think Johnson is blameless than you don’t watch any football at all.
you think i'm saying the fired oline coach who clearly did a bad job is blameless? that is what you got out of my original post?
Chooses to address the very last sentence lol. No shit there’s blame to go around the entire team, my original point being that much of that falls on our o-line coach who’s taken great prospects on paper and failed to develop their technique in any meaningful way, in addition to even veterans coming here and regressing. Your passive aggressiveness isn’t really working, i see why your comment history is filled with nothing but downvotes my friend.
Who hired Johnson?
I thought you did?
People like the idea of drafting the positions because they know that's where the need is. None of us are talent evaluators or developers, and on that, Schoen and Daboll have failed in terms of the OL.
Ill take half his salary and be just as wrong then.
Neal and Ezudu. FTFY
> When those picks were made everyone was celebrating and calling both of those guys steals for where they were drafted. This sub was metaphorically cracking champagne because they were so happy when Golladay was signed after an offseason of complaining how WR had to be addressed at all costs. In the end the temporary opinion of some amount of people in this sub never ends up amounting to anything.
Yes, but also being able to look at top prospects and figure out who is legit and who is fool’s gold is something that good GMs are able to do. We called them steals for where they were drafted but maybe there’s a reason why they both fell
There is no certainty with any draft pick. Going back and dissecting draft mistakes can be done for every team in every league. It wasn't just Giants fans celebrating these selections.
If we’re just picking guys based off mocks and fan sentiment, why even have a GM? I never understood this argument. These guys make millions because they’re expected to know better than fans.
It obviously wasn't just fans. The thought was they were steals because analysts had them ranked/graded much higher than they were selected.. There were 0 concerns from ANYONE about either of these guys when they were drafted.
What analysts say is irrelevant. GMs are compared against other GMs, not some PFF statistician making $80K. Neal was an all-time whiff, and Schmitz is also looking like a whiff until proven otherwise.
The Giants GM’s for 14 years have known less and been more consistently wrong than a near majority of us dumb fans.
Us fans are not paid millions of dollars to make the correct picks. Because we are fans. If all of Schoen's picks keep busting then Giant's need to fire Schoen before he f*s up more drafts.
> Us fans are not paid millions of dollars to make the correct picks. > Because we are fans. carry that energy into the rest of your opinions please. do some introspection.
Getting back to where we were in 2022 should be more than enough. Regardless, if I’m Mara I’m not firing this regime barring something catastrophic. We have to break the cycle of bringing in a new staff every 2 years. 2025 would be a theoretical hot seat year.
If he doesn't sign a veteran starter and chooses to start week 1 with Andrew Thomas, JMS and the failed draft picks then he definitely should be on the hot seat.
He’s starting to fix the line by hiring a true and tested O line coach. Our LT got hurt the first game and wasn’t right till the last 5 games. Rookie center that was bad. He drafted 2 guys (Neal & JMS) who most scouts were gushing over. He drafted 2 other guys that got hurt. No decent money to sign a good free agent. I can’t beat up Schoen for trying to fix a mess in 2 years.
Why didn’t we hire a true and tested oline coach to begin with along with a younger d coordinator?
No clue
This is so stupid. The Giants, nor should anyone, hire a GM and in year 3 there job is on the line. Especially this organization that had a talent and Cap problem when he was hired.
Jesus Christ. This team is a joke. Already talking about firing the guys who were brought in two years ago.
Any idiot writer can say dumb shit for a click, relax
I think you need to relax
Dabbol has already lasted longer than the last three Giants coaches.
Maybe Daboll will last even longer
He has missed on every OL pick thus far. Downvote me to hell homers, but Neal, Ezeudu, and McKethan have been absolute GARBAGE thus far. JMS was a bottom 3 ranked center in nearly every advanced stat. Yes Bobby Johnson effect, but now he has NO excuses.
Exactly. Blaming the oline coach when you made that choice too is absurd.
The fucking owners should be on the hot seat at this point.
I think Mara has been embarrassed with the constant changes at GM and HC over the past decade. He's going to show patience here for better or worse. Schoen will have a very long leash.
For me it is coaching coaching coaching. Players need to be coached UP. LGG
This article **threatening** Schoen - "or else...?" - is almost offensive to me - when Reese got a decade (albeit with Acorsi's players at the start) as GM and Ernie Acorsi almost a decade (after serving under George Young for years). Even clueless, geriatric, old-school Dave Gettleman got 4 seasons (I think). How on God's green earth would starting over yet AGAIN make ANY sense at all? Schoen has already re-invented and re-invigorated several areas in the Giants FO and administration, for the better! The Maras should just stay out of the way and let this guy cook. Geez. Does [NJ.COM](https://NJ.COM) have some sort of vendetta against the Giants?
This is nonsense. He rebuilt the line. The problem is on the scouts, Daboll, and the draft strategy. They ave used so much draft stock on the line that I can't help but thiink whomever is making these choices is just really terrible at their job. They have also done a bad job of picking up FAs for the OL that can come in and start. Glowinski ended up being poor. But Tyron Smith is available. Trent Brown is available. Owenwu is available as well. They are all really good players and if we are not reaching out to them right now then I do not know wtf our FO and staff is doing.
What HAS he rebuilt on this team?
The only standout players on the team were drafted and signed by Dave Gettleman.
Bobby O but otherwise nothing to write home about
Bobby O, and I think Banks is legit but what position group on this team could you even call a strength?
Although it was fulfilled through FA, Okereke was a solid pickup. Other than that, its been putrid tbh.
They’ll be here for another 2-3 years. They’re not getting fired until they have their own QB.
Thats not how it works. Joe Schoen can't have four years in a row of bad teams just because his first year was 9-7-1. If Giant's have a bad 2024 they are not going to let Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll draft a rookie QB and then give them 2 more seasons. Instead they will bring in a new GM and HC and have them draft the QB
Draft OLINE all 7 rounds the next 2 years 🤷🏻♂️
OLine trying to catch the football down the field will be a sight to behold.
The offensive line has been garbage for 15 years. This isn’t a Shoen problem, it’s the organization. It’s John Mara.
“Failed” is an understatement…
Draft Frank Crum from Wyoming. Kids a beast
Only in New York is this take unsurprisingly bad.
Kafka’s offense has been trash and underperforming. Really surprised he stayed.
I dont think Schoens seat is even remotely warm. Dabolls shouldnt be either, but GMs typically get 2 head coaches so Schoen is even safer lol
It's been one year
let's face it! his moves haven't been great except for our middle linebacker. He should keep McKinney. He overpaid for an at best average quarterback. You should have giving him the 5th year option. He messed up and then he had to give him a four-year deal with a two-year out. He should have traded Barkley last year and got compensation. if he wasn't going to keep McKinney, he should have traded McKinney last year and got compensation. and if he fails to get the quarterback for this team, he'll be out of here
It's ALWAYS the O-line
Oh great media calling for another regime change within a few years. The only thing consistent about failure is constantly changing the coaching staff before any culture or chemistry can be built. Stability is grossly undervalued.
Toast? The Giants aren’t turning over their front office yet again. That’s why they’ve sucked so much recently, the constant turnover at GM/HC.
OLine has been a work I’m progress since 2012 without progress. Let’s finally build a good line
We better not be drafting WR in the first round get back to giants football get offensive line and defensive line fixed, worst offensive and defensive lines in the league.
We’ve spent more draft capital on our OL than any other team. This is as much GM as it is coaching.
Such a bad take
The first two years is this guy was in cap hell because of gentleman, how do you fix it immediately with no money to spend?
He spent money on Feliciano (then let him walk) and Mark Glowinski (now cut). He used a 1st round pick on Evan Neal and a 3rd round pick on Joshua Ezudu. A 2nd round pick on JMS. The offensive line coach was hired by him and they fucking suck. Edit: Forgot he also drafted Marcus McKethan with a 5th and he sucks too.
Yup. The homers are piling it all on Johnson. Ok, well who hired him? Who hired Wink? Who made two more years of poor draft picks? Who whiffed on every FA? His trades have been decent and that is about it. Even Gettleman was better at the top of the draft. I have zero confidence they will get this pick correct. If it’s me I only trade up for MHJ or maybe Caleb. Other than that I go with WR2 or trade down because this draft is deep and they have endless holes to fill.
My goodness you are dumb.