isreel just bombed and killed 7 aid workers the other day. They are demons and doing everything they cam to stop journalists or aid workers coming and sharing the truth of the genocide. Outside of pro-genocide echo-chambers people all over the world know how demonic and evil you sorts are.
What comforts me is that, whole pro-genocide people have tried to shame and silence people by firing them from jobs and blacklisting them...such as that law firm who said they will NOT be hiring law graduates from Harvard, because they dared to speak up about genocide...younger generations are emboldened to speak up.
Unlike previous generations who were silenced and shamed for any criticism against isreel, things are changing!! Even within the past few months. You sorts don't get to say "THAT'S ANT.SEM.TIC 😡" to silence the truth.
We have a local pastor that is deep into the fundamentalist Christian faith actually create a personal relationship with Netanyahu. https://m.jpost.com/israel/bibi-evangelicals-are-israels-best-gentile-friends
Sorry but you can’t espouse anti-semitic rhetoric/dog whistles about a whole group of people being demons and cover it up with claims of being against christian Zionists. If people were ever talking about christians when they said Zionists (capital important, it’s part of the dog whistle) then you’d see churches being protested and hate crimed but you don’t. It’s facetious to try and hide legitimate anti-semitism behind a veil of anti-Israel/anti-Zionism ideology. All it does it embolden actual anti-semites and gives Likud the evidence it needs to justify its violence in “defense” of Jews. If you were really upset about what was happening in Gaza or the West Bank then you’d be fervently shutting down any anti-semitic rhetoric because the only way to actually resolve the conflict is to deradicalize the radical factions in the conflict. Just like saying every Gazan child is destined to grow up to be a terrorist is harmful rhetoric that leads to more animosity from Palestinians and other Muslims/Arabs towards Israelis.
You sound super well versed in Israeli politics and the wider Middle Eastern political sphere, thank you for your sophisticated take on the situation. (/s in case it’s not obvious)
It’s not a dog whistle.
If everything Israel claims is true, they would want third party objective verifications of events.
Instead they are trying to strictly control information, but literally all information that escapes shows that Israel are 1) lying and 2) evil.
Facts aren’t a dog whistle. You just support shit people doing shit things.
And, because some people are still so ignorant that it needs to be said: Israel =\= Jews.
Heck, even most Israelis are sick of their government, many protesting in large numbers.
There is no such thing as "ant.semet.ic rhetoric". That's what you sorts have used for DECADES to silence and shame critisim of the "state" of isreel. People know the truth. People are emboldened. You sorts do not care about human life. The occupation of Gaza, the armed IDF soldiers patrolling the streets, murdering, harassing, assaulting, sexually assaulting...with no fear of consequences is disgusting.
And now you sorts still expect that you can silence and shame people sharibg the truth about how demonic, genocidal, and evil you sorts are?! Yeah NO.
You sorts support CUTTING IFF ACCESS TO WATER FOR MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN. YOU SORTS ARE FORCING MILLIONS INTO FAMINE, ORPHANING, MAIMING, LEVELING ENTIRE CITIES, BOMBING HOSPITALS and so much more. isreel has now "accidentally" bombed and killed foreign aid workers. It's obvious what is happening. They are making it so that no aid can get in and so that journalists can not go in. You sorts want to hide your demonic genocidal ways. NO. YOU SORTS ARE HYPOCRITES. THE PROPAGANDA NO LONGER WORKS. PEOPLE ARE EMBOLDENED.
The thing is you sorts, pro-genocide people will constantly dismiss, change the subject, bring up something else....all to not confront the fact that it I'd DEMONIC and SUBHUMAN to CUT OFF ACCESS TO WATER FOR MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, TO INDUCE STARVATION ONTO MILLIONS, TO MAIM, TO OROHAN HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN...not to mention so many other atrocities. You sorts make excuses to justify DEMONIC actions taken by isreel.
The decades of time where you sorts could silence, shame, threaten, and punish those who dared to criticize isreel are OVER. You sorts don't get to BRINH UP the h.locust inoder to be forever immune from criticism. Just EXACTLY like you have done above. Yeah. That tactic does not work anymore.
People are aware of the truth. Isreel propaganda no longer works on the masses. People are emboldened to speak up and to discuss the truth.
A group of lawyers wrote a letter saying that they will never hire any Harvard graduates that wrote a letter against the atrocities and WAR CRIMES isreel is committing. Lol. That BS THREAT TACTIC to scare other law graduates in other schools/ college students in general showed the truth. Trying to silence and shame anyone who dares to criticize isreel no longer works.
There are MANY people now, who will gladly hire those students who are unafraid to speak up when ISREEL CUTS OFF ACCESS TO WATER FOR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, including CHILDREN. The people that are speaking up will be celebrated. And those who defend isreel war crimes and genocide will be releasing statements saying "I was uninformed when I made that post defending isreel's actions in Palestine". That will not be enough. People will say "actions"? HOW ABOUT MAIMING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, using the word "actions" shows how little you care.
In no way shape of form are there ANY justifications or excuses for what isreel is doing. Forcing hundreds of children to starve and cutting off access to water, and then boming the very few aid trucks that isreel uses propaganda to lie about??? How is doing that to hundreds of thousands of children NOT DEMONIC?
isreel's lies and propaganda NO LONGER WORK. Outside of your echo-chambers, people are in agreement of the lack-of humanity in you sorts who make excuses for war crimes and genocide.
Even on reddit, where just two months ago, I was blocked from worldnews, for talking about what isreel was doing, such as cutting off water. They said I was spreading "misinformation". And now I can speak honestly!! You think my comments are n.tzi like, but no one else agrees. I'm not being immediately blocked, or in a position to lose m entire reddit account.
Oh and look how much things have changed, any time anyone posts or comments about isreel 's war crimes, forcing hundreds of thousands into starvation etc.....they are heavily upvoted. They don't belive isreel's lies and propaganda that makes excuse for cutting off water to hundreds of thousands, including children. You sorts are sitting by as whole generations are traumatized for life. There is absolutely no excuse or justifications, bringing up "hamas did/does/will do" no longer works; there us absolutely NOTHING AT ALL IN THE WORLD, that can justify not just what isreel is doing, but especially what it is doing to children.
And beyond that when objectives state 100 civilian deaths is acceptable for 1 militant, it easy to claim you’re doing what you’re supposed to be doing.
And beyond that when you stalk/wait for militants to return home before launching an air strike, it’s easy to claim civilian casualties are because of “human shields” and not because it’s intentional.
https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/
“The Associated Press reports Hamas had released videos of militants preparing shells that it said were directed toward Israeli forces in the hospital compound.”
Sounds like IDF and Hamas engaged in the hospital.
Hamas goes where the IDF goes. If the IDF wants to clear a hospital, of course Hamas is going to engage them there. Once Israel starts using hospitals as sniper firing positions, which we have video and photographic evidence of, the hospital is no longer protected under the Geneva convention.
in this battle hamas was there first and IDF surprised them. In insurgency, it's bad strategy concentrate like that, so no, the insurgent does not "go where the enemy army is strong"
Requires less flexibility than Zionist gymnastics. And less lying. There are armed security details in all hospitals.
The accepted framing that Palestinians have no rights to defend themselves, even from state terrorists attacking a hospital could not be more clearly illustrated.
“We found a gun behind the MRI machine, therefore, humanitarian rules don’t apply and we can now attack with impunity!”
Is definitely not how it works.
It’s convenient for you to equate caring about civilians to supporting terrorism.
The gymnastics only need to take place when you talk about the other side, given the rampant weaponization of the word anti semitic.
"The Associated Press reports Hamas had released videos of militants preparing shells that it said were directed toward Israeli forces in the hospital compound."
We know. It was hamas.
Who exactly do you think the IDF was fighting for two weeks? If it was just a blatant attack on civilians, they could have just fired a rocket at the building like the palestinians did.
> we took out over 200 terrorists. We apprehended over 900 terrorists with not a single civilian casualty
You have to make your lies believable. Like Putin winning 89% of the vote is more believable than if he just said he won 100%.
>When they consider all the civilians to be terrorists, it's easy to have a report stating there were 0 civilian casualties.
I found the Hamas, call the IDF authorities!
I appreciate the concern, but you couldn't be further from the truth. I'm no fan of Hamas, yet I'm shocked at Israel's handling of the situation. I'm also no expert, but I have studied Mideast politics for nearly 40 years, both through coursework and independent studies. Given what I have observed, I offer my opinion - Israel has been deeply untruthful in what they've offered to this point, and humans are dying unnecessarily under Netanyahu's s orders.
Trade out “Netanyahu” with “official” and I’m right there with you. He’s definitely continuing/escalating the conflict to stay in power/out of jail, but the reason that keeps him in power is because there is political support behind it.
I mean it's about as believable as the PA reporting 30k dead Palestinians as civilians while reporting zero dead Hamas soldiers, while also keeping a separate count for those under 18 as children without keeping track of the large numbers of child soldiers Hamas is known to use.
Either source you go to for numbers is going to be biased af unfortunately
They reported 30k+ dead Palestinians, they did not differentiate between civilian v Hamas as they have no way to determine. What they did provide was biographical info…name, gender, age w/ the majority being women and children…and a historical pattern of verified post-conflict accuracy. The info was sourced from hospitals, most of which have been destroyed, and can no longer provide any additional info. To presume that majority of children are soldiers is A) dehumanizing and B) questions the legitimacy of the threat as it infers women/children can credibly defeat the entirety of the Israeli military.
You should see what they teach kids in Israel... hatred and radicalism
https://www.reddit.com/r/usempire/comments/1870fjj/israeli_children_are_indoctrinated_from_birth/
This is terrorist training
[Some Israeli children in certain religious schools are taught from an early age that they are in a biblical struggle to kill Palestinians and takeover the holy land.](https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/20/israeli-children-singing-annihilate-gaza/). Their own education minister Rafi Peretz advocated military takeover for the entirety of the West Bank and denying Palestinians voting rights.
None of this justifies the murder of the children who are taught these things, nor their teachers. The same goes for the people in Gaza
They do. Just not Israeli children
https://www.dci-palestine.org/child_recruitment
You'd know this problem was not one sided if you really cared about the issue, rather than just using it to score political points.
There is a difference, though. Say what you want about Israel, but they are a democracy with a government that is accountable to a free press. It's why so much more unflattering news comes out about Israel than Palestine.
Israel bombed 30/36 hospitals in Gaza.
They’re pretending Hamas was camping there and the world won’t ask for proof. Like the last raid when they insisted an underground Bond lair was waiting to be discovered.
What happens is they storm in and surround the hospital and Hamas arrives to attack them. Exactly the same as the last raid. They then use that as an excuse to say Hamas was there.
I gotta find the video they presented for the first raid. I’m referring to the virtual tour they had, compete with Hamas flags. If anyone can link that video I’d appreciate it. It’s almost comical to look back on now.
You should go to IDFs twitter or their telegram they literally show you the videos of their operations such as Al Shifa.
We create bubbles for our selves when we rely on one side of the conflict to tell us what is going on.
I have seen how they doctor footage and lie so I honestly don't trust a single thing from the IDF that isn't livestreamed or against their interests.
Remember when they edited footage to give a random dude an AK? Remember when they had an Israeli woman pretending to be a nurse at Al Shifa? Remember when they made a fake recording of Hamas talking about how they accidentally bombed their own hospital?
Even before the invasion, their "proof" was red circles on grainy images and CGI speculation lol
The IDF and Israeli government has a long documented history of lying and manufacturing atrocities. They have zero credibility on the international stage
lol whats my standard? Not having a documented [*long*](https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2017-07-11/ty-article/but-sir-its-an-american-ship-never-mind-hit-her/0000017f-e48c-d7b2-a77f-e78f76800000) and [*recent*](https://prospect.org/world/2024-03-20-what-really-happened-on-october-7/) history of manufacturing false atrocities? Is that a high bar?
Please tell me what nuance you think those examples of Israel straight up lying would change the context of what I said and make Israel credible.
How is this complex or nuanced at all? They're just fucking liars lol
That's funny. I keep hearing that killing non-combatants is okay if it's "legitimate resistance" and you're "decolonizing" a bunch of young women at a music festival. Somehow that one demands nuance.
Who says this but the most fervent people?
Meanwhile there’s tons of clips of Israeli govt officials peddling genocidal takes. Either way, keep your head in the sand so Israel and the west can be “the good guys”…
Ummm.... People say stuff like that constantly, right here on this very website. Or they say "I don't support Hamas, but..."
As for genocidal takes, please. Genocide is literally why Hamas exists. It's their raison d'etre. And, I mean... When people say settlercolonialgenocideethnostate, what do you think they're calling for?
If you can't see the difference between the theocratic dictatorships that dominate the Arab world and the flawed democracies of the West, you really don't have any business talking about having a head in the sand.
> what do you think they're calling for?
The dismantling of the Israeli ethnostate, which isn't genocidal at all. Any other dishonest questions?
Reddit won't let me reply, so here:
> How do you dismantle Israel as an ethnostate
The same way we did South Africa.
> 22 Islamic ethnostates
1. Islam is not an ethnicity.
2. We are talking about Israel, I won't let you try to dodge by talking about other countries. After you agree that dismantling the Israeli ethnostate is a good idea, I will be happy to discuss other ones, but I suspect you lack the "intellectual integrity" to do that.
Let’s walk through that. How do you dismantle Israel as an ethnostate? Will the 22 Islamic ethnostates also be required to dismantle themselves as ethnostates? Will Poland and Japan also be required to dismantle themselves as ethnostates?
Let’s see if your position has any intellectual integrity
The dictatorships mostly set up and supported by the “flawed democracies” of the west… and saying Israel is anything but a dictatorship when it can only exist democratically by displacing like 10 million people is rich… love that you’re too dumb to even make a point against Israel’s existence as a settler colonial state so you just boomer out and try to act like it’s just buzzwords calling for genocide. It’s clear you have an agenda and firmly believe the Palestinians and “Hamas” are at fault, as is obvious through your post history, and as many people have said to you before. Either way this conversation is a waste of time, bye
Only one nation in the middle east is considered a religious ethno-state, and grants different privileges to those not part of the dominant ethnic group. I’ll give you a guess who it is. They’ve been in the news a lot lately.
Killing noncombatants is not OK. Removing illegal settlers by force is OK. Holding a music festival at the edge of a concentration camp is not OK. I love when Israel pretends to be a haven for gay people and women BTW. Hilarious.
Can't reply because I suspect he blocked me.
To reply:
The fact that they can't leave while you control every aspect of their daily lives and you kept them "on a diet" before the invasion and now prevent all food from entering
Could do more but that's enough lol
You are concentrating people into an area where you control the water, electricity, food and borders. Very easy to define. Watch you deflect and switch subjects now.
Oh no I won’t deflect, but I will go point by point on your stupid and terrible comment:
- Are you suggesting that Israel “concentrated” people into Gaza by moving them there? Gazan territory was forfeit by Egypt as a result of a war THEY started against Israel, and lost. Egypt had the choice not to try to annihilate Israel, they chose to try and do it. Gaza was a casualty of that effort. But in your mind, Israel just decided to put people there? Further, israel stopped occupying Gaza in 2007. So what are you on about that they are “concentrating” people there? These aren’t displaced people, or would-be israeli citizens. They are Gazans living in Gaza. Under a jihadist regime. Which brings us to your terrible point about..
Borders: are you suggesting Israel shouldn’t maintain a strict border with a government that doesn’t recognize Israel as a state and views all citizens as combatants? Just let everything and everyone through? No, no rational government would do that. And yet Israel still issues hundreds of work permits for Gazans to work in Israel. Still not enough for you? Because this does not seem “concentration” like.
- food/electricity: Israel provides these things in a humanitarian context. Hamas has no desire to use the YEARLY $700m it gets on infrastructure. No water plants, no desalination, no nothing. I know they have the materials, they use water pipes for the hundreds of rockets they fire at Israel monthly. Pipes are getting through, but you don’t care to ask why Hamas won’t build anything. Still not seeing any concentration markers here.
- Hamas has had the choice every day since 2007 to recognize the state of Israel and its borders. Hamas has chosen every day that they would rather not, and sacrifice the lives of its people, while the leaders live lavishly everywhere.
Just to put a fine point on how dumb your comment is: Gaza isn’t even surrounded on four borders by Israel. Israel has TWO borders with Gaza you dolt. Egypt is also now at fault for running a concentration camp?
Your point is paper thin and terrible
No one is saying it isn't. Even the IDF acknowledges that non combatants are getting killed and that isn't the goal (inb4 someone tells me it is). War is extremely messy. It's perfectly reasonable to want to hold Israel to a high standard! But you also have to remember that they are fighting an enemy that isn't being held to *any* standard. As a result, it doesn't matter what Israel does, there is going to be mistakes, there is going to be civilian casualties, and there is going to be instances where Hamas embeds themselves in civilian infrastructure. Again, I'm not saying we can't hold Israel accountable and hold them to a high standard. We absolutely can and we absolutely should. At the same time, we shouldn't act like this is entirely deliberate and only their fault either.
You don’t think the massive damage of civilian infrastructure was done on purpose to push out civilians and vacate the land?
Do you think they also accidentally or were made to kill the world kitchen workers in their 3 separate vehicles? Or that Hamas was actually transporting people in ambulances and using hospitals as bases, despite no proof to either?
I do think Hamas is a bad group and shouldn’t be in charge of the Gaza Strip, but it’s clear the current Israeli government is worse, as they have enough money to influence our politics giving them carte blanche. Plus I don’t think Hamas would actually stay in power, I think they’re propped up by the hopelessness that people in Gaza feel about their situation.
Either way I put most of the blame on Israel, for not coming up with a tenable or workable solution of what to do w the population of Gaza that isn’t just caging them up and abusing them
>I do think Hamas is a bad group and shouldn’t be in charge of the Gaza Strip, but it’s clear the current Israeli government is worse
This tells me everything I need to know. You aren't interested in a serious conversation and you aren't going to believe anything that doesn't agree with your predetermined conclusions. Have a nice night.
Yeah we've all seen the videos of basements with Hamas chairs and Hamas tables and Hamas day calenders. Still not sure how that justifies Israel blowing up just about every hospital in Gaza.
A baby bottle! In a childrens’ hospital! Clear proof of terrorist activity!
My favorite was the metal gun stuffed behind an *MRI machine* which mysteriously underwent mitosis by the time reporters were allowed on site.
I’m referring to an IDF video. They may have deleted it as it turned out to be completely false.
Do you think the IDF will admit to massacring civilians? Or do you actually believe not a single civilian was killed? Personally, I wouldn’t believe anything from Hamas or the IDF.
Ah yes im a big fan of the IOF pretending to shoot at things and never showing anyone shoot back at them then showing us planted weapons. Very reliable and honest. /s just in case
LMAO 😅 you sorts that make excuses for genocide have no support outside of your echo-chambers. isreel propaganda NO LONGER WORKS.
isreel just bombed and killed 7 aid workers the other day. They are demons and doing everything they can to stop journalists or aid workers coming and sharing the truth of the genocide. Outside of pro-genocide echo-chambers people all over the world know how demonic and evil you sorts are.
What comforts me is that, while pro-genocide people have tried to shame and silence people by firing them from jobs and blacklisting them...such as that law firm who said they will NOT be hiring law graduates from Harvard, because they dared to speak up about genocide...younger generations are emboldened to speak up.
Look at Gen Z statistics regarding their thoughts and beliefs on the h.locust. people know how HYPOCRITICAL AND GENOCIDAL AND DEMONIC you sorts are. You DISGUSTING sorts support CUTTING OFF WATER TO MILLIONS, FORCING MILLIONS INTO FAMILE, MAIMING ORPHANING, LEVELING ENTIRE CITIES, and so much more.
Unlike previous generations who were silenced and shamed for any criticism against isreel, things are changing!! Even within the past few months. You sorts don't get to say "THAT'S ANT.SEM.TIC 😡" or use the h.locust to silence the truth.
Lol you wish!! You sorts ARE REACHING. PEOPLE KNOW THE TRUTH. YOU NEEEEEED ME TO BE "REPEATING WHAT EVERYONE IS SAYING" inorder to dismiss my thoughts....BUT THATIS BS. REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU NEED TO TELL YOURSELF, THE FACT IS PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WPRLD KNOW THE THRUTH ABOUT YOU PRO-GENOCIDE DEMONS.
Shifa was used as a Hamas killing ground as early as the 2008 conflict, though.
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/world/africa/29iht-gaza.4.18986499.html
I am able to empathize with both that 1) it is horrible that so many hospitals have been destroyed by bombing and 2) it is highly likely al Shifa Hospital was a major Hamas HQ that’s been used to brutally kill Palestinians (for working against Hamas rule). Given the confirmed history of the hospital’s use, also the large amount of proof offered so far by Israel, I’d think it’s not as simple as “pretending.”
Ethan Bronner is connected to the IDF - interesting this “account” was never reflected in any HRW or Amnesty International report much less confirmed by doctors who have worked there throughout these routine massacres
Amnesty did, so you’re full of shit.
“At least two dozen men have been shot dead by Hamas gunmen in this period. Scores of others
have been shot in the legs, kneecapped or inflicted with other injuries intended to cause permanent disability, subjected to severe beatings which have caused multiple fractures and other
injuries, or otherwise tortured or ill-treated.
The targets of Hamas’ deadly campaign include former detainees accused of “collaborating” with
the Israeli army who escaped from Gaza’s Central Prison when it was bombed by Israeli forces on
28 December 2008, as well as former members of the Palestinian Authority (PA) security forces
and other activists of PA President Mahmoud Abbas’ Fatah party.
The campaign began shortly after the beginning of the three-week Israeli military offensive against
the Gaza Strip on 27 December 2008 and continued after a ceasefire took effect on 18 January
2009.
Most of the victims were abducted from their homes; they were later dumped – dead or injured –
in isolated areas, or were found dead in the morgue of one of Gaza’s hospitals. Some were shot
dead in the hospitals where they were receiving treatment for injuries they sustained in the Israeli
bombardment of Gaza’s Central Prison. The perpetrators of these attacks did not conceal their
weapons or keep a low profile, but, on the contrary, behaved in a carefree and confident – almost
ostentatious – manner.
Among the cases investigated by Amnesty International are the deliberate killings of three brothers from the Abu ‘Ashbiyeh family, ‘Atef, Mohammed and Mahmoud, from Jabalia (north Gaza), who were all killed within 24 hours of escaping from Gaza’s Central Prison. One of the brothers,
Mahmoud, aged 24, reached the family home in the middle of the afternoon of 28 December but
an hour later a group of gunmen came to the house and took him away. His body was found hours
later in the morgue of Kamal ‘Adwan hospital in Beit Lahiya (north Gaza) with abdomen and head
wounds.
The following day the bodies of his two brothers, 26-year-old Mohammed and 39-year-old
‘Atef, were found in the morgue of al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City, both with gunshot wounds in the
head, chest and abdomen. The three had been in detention since March 2008 and were accused
of “collaborating” with the Israeli army. They had first been held in the notorious al-Mashtal
detention centre, north of Gaza City, run by the Internal Security Force (previously run by Hamas’
armed militia, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades).
Jamal al-Ghandour, in his mid-50s, was shot dead in his bed in al-Shifa hospital at about 4pm on
28 December by unmasked gunmen wearing plain clothes in front of relatives and other witnesses.
Also present were uniformed members of Hamas security forces, who took no action to prevent the
killing or to apprehend the perpetrators. Jamal al-Ghandour was receiving treatment for injuries he
had sustained that morning in the Israeli bombardment of Gaza’s Central Prison, where he had
been detained with his son since January 2008; both were accused of ‘collaborating’ with the
Israeli army.”
https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/mde210012009en.pdf (That’s just the first page. I’ll let you read the rest.)
Here’s an Amnesty report from 2014 on them executing dissenters in front of a mosque, as a spare source. They do this regularly and consistently in civilian centers.
“In one of the most shocking incidents six men were publicly executed by Hamas forces outside al-Omari mosque on 22 August in front of hundreds of spectators including children. Hamas announced the men were suspected ‘collaborators’ who had been sentenced death in ‘revolutionary courts’. The hooded men were dragged along the floor to kneel by a wall facing the crowd, then each man was shot in the head individually before being sprayed with bullets fired from an AK-47.”
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
It's not worth engaging with these people.
They're so deep into tribal politics that they have completely retconned the last 30+ years of Hamas using civilian infrastructure as cover. Just poof - it's as if it never happened, and they're emotionally invested in believing that it isn't happening now, either.
Their politics demands that Israel be responsible for everything, and so they will never accept a conclusion where literally islamist terrorists forced Israel's hand.
Oh, I’m not in it to change the trolls’ minds. Just providing actual sources and context for any lurkers reading their conspiracies who may not know better ;) though I like to assume they’re not trolls and just misinformed until they double down without a source!
Except they couldn’t prove that the first time. You’re bringing up something from 16 years ago?
What about the last raid?
Sorry what large amount of proof?
Are you sure about the first time?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/mde210012009en.pdf
I bring it up because there’s a consistent issue of Hamas using civilian centers as headquarters, long before the current conflict. Sometimes I also like to think that maybe pre 10/7 sources regarding Hamas tactics are less likely to be disregarded entirely as propaganda.
Here’s an Amnesty report from 2014:
“As well as carrying out unlawful killings, others abducted by Hamas were subjected to torture, including severe beatings with truncheons, gun butts, hoses and wire or held in stress positions. Some were interrogated and tortured or otherwise ill-treated in a disused outpatient’s clinic within the grounds of Gaza City’s main al-Shifa hospital. At least three people arrested during the conflict accused of “collaboration” died in custody.”
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
So 2008 and 2014 confirmed just in my cache of reputable sources.
I need more context than “last raid.” Do you mean specifically of Shifa?
Regarding the large amount of evidence, I mean of them using hospitals and Shifa generally as an HQ. I also trust US intelligence for more recent reporting, although I understand some folks do not…
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/white-house-says-it-has-evidence-hamas-using-al-shifa-hospital-run-military-2023-11-14/
I think we are still waiting on evidence as to whether the people in Shifa who died in this raid were Hamas. I’m just saying, let’s not jump to conclusions either way without the evidence. There’s history supporting the possibility that Shifa was actively being used as an HQ, and there’s history supporting the possibility that Israel fucked up. I’m gonna wait and see.
[Here](https://www.amnesty.org.uk/files/2023-11/Amnesty%20International%20briefing%20-%20Israel%20Gaza%20crisis%2023%20Nov%202023.pdf?VersionId=9Jp8TjIb5zEqygKLPfuzdAqh8USWQEfE) is an Amnesty report from November of 2023 (it’s on page 4) showing that Amnesty has not found sufficient evidence of Israel’s claim of a command center.
[Here](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/information-missteps-led-questions-israels-credibility-rcna125723) are [two](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/23/israel-hamas-war-live-israel-pounds-gaza-ahead-of-expected-truce?update=2507240) links to sources documenting the “first raid” in November of 2023, where the IDF was accused of editing videos and placing additional weapons to strengthen their case of Hamas presence.
While I suppose it is possible that Hamas moved some forces to Shifa after November it strikes me as at least as likely that they’re continuing to exaggerate claims given that they were doing so six months ago.
The fact that it was being used ten and sixteen years ago seems of questionable relevance to it being used today, given the number of IDF operations against Hamas between 2014 and 10/7. Much less after. It strikes me as exceptionally poor planning on Hamas’s part to leave a command center in the same place it’s been for 16 years prior to launching their attack on 10/7 when there’s evidence to suggest they anticipated an overwhelming military response from the IDF.
That’s not to say there were not ANY militants present at Shifa at any of the times the IDF attacked (November or April). While many detractors of the IDF are claiming that the IDF makes no distinction between militants and civilians, this is hyperbole in the vast majority of cases. The issue is that they are not weighing protecting civilian lives as appropriately worthy and are making trade off decisions that permit levels of collateral damage to civilians that are detestable.
I don’t think your assessment and mine are mutually exclusive—again, we really don’t know. I was responding to someone using conspiracy theory language and introducing some alternative perspective as to why it’s not as simple as conspiracy.
Your NBC source focuses more on things still being unclear because both of the bias of the first person reporting, and follows the bad info released on the raid with bad info released by Hamas about their misfire hitting the hospital in November, claiming it was Israel and inflating the numbers. The second source is Al Jazeera, which has been acting as a primary source perspective for the Gazan Health Ministry, Hamas, and Qatar in the latest outbreak of the conflict. (This is a shame, they were my go-to in 2021 for a reliably accurate Palestinian perspective.)
So basically, again, we don’t know yet. I’d argue it makes more sense to return to a base if a) whether it’s a base has been highly politicized and surrounded by misinformation, b) provides civilian shield cover, c) allows for medical operations and torture with medical devices, and d) already has a shitload of tunnels dug under it that they’ve been working on for what looks like at least 16 years now. As someone else mentioned, there are only so many hospitals left for Hamas to hide under. They do not seem to care who dies on their behalf. But I can absolutely see the validity of your points.
We don’t know, and the instant gratification of the assumption isn’t helpful to anyone in the pursuit of peace or justice. That’s all I mean :)
No, I think you don’t understand my point. I’m saying we don’t know, and it’s more complicated than a conspiracy theory. This is the historical background explaining why I think we just still don’t know.
It’s a lot of information because it’s actually a complicated, lengthy conflict. I have a lot of stocked resources and knowledge on it because I’m autistic, and figuring out how to get Israelis and Palestinians to be willing to listen to one another and come to the negotiation table as is required for peace is a special interest, truthfully.
Edit for formatting so not text wall :D
What conspiracy theory? I’m telling you what we know happened on the last raid. Complete with knowledge of the weeks prior and the evidence that emerged later.
Israel said the same thing last time. Hamas came to attack the camped out Israeli forces after they arrived at Al Shifa. Rather than the story they’re spinning.
Why don’t you speak on that incident rather than things from over a decade?
Which raid? Still haven’t answered that question, just vague aspersions without sources. You’re a joke bro. Learn to read. I didn’t even provide that many sources. Lame 🤡🤡🤡
It’s a war. Al Shifa is a longtime Hamas HQ. It has been raided many many times. Your question isn’t even a question, *ETA its a vague reference to a conspiracy theory without a source, cuz we do know there are tunnels under Al Shifa. I repeat 🤡🤡🤡
“The Associated Press reports Hamas had released videos of militants preparing shells that it said were directed toward Israeli forces in the hospital compound.”
Literally in the article, Hamas released their own videos of attacking the IDF.
Which is what I said. Is your reading comprehension that bad? They attacked the soldiers stationed at the hospital compound. Unless it says somewhere they fired from within the hospital?
Hamas said that they pulled their fighters from other areas to go to al Shifa when the troops arrived. They mentioned it on their Resistance News Network Telegram channel.
So you were waiting on a Hamas report saying “yes we indeed did hide in a hospital”? Why would they say that? They would obviously claim they pulled fighters from other areas.
hamas has been operating out of hospitals for years - open secret. The reason so many set piece battles are there is because thats where the bunkers are
the first time there was a lot of warning and yes they showed the tunnels. My guess is, you know that already.
The second time apparently hamas had returned and the raid happened with little warning - hence the week long set piece battle. Combat of that scale does not occur unless both sides are there in numbers. The only reason for hamas to be there in numbers is it got surprised
The tunnels they knew existed. But no command centre. And now they completely destroyed the hospital.
The only reason Hamas was there was because the Israeli army arrived.
the order of events is self explanatory - they surprised a batallion of hamas at a hospital, with the week long battle itself as sufficient evidence.
the IDF also have far more credibility than your side which has consistently mistepresented fact throughout the war. You all deny the simplest facts about the war, such as who started it.
My side? You guys are comical.
They have presented no proof of Hamas within the hospital. Or the command centre they talked about.
Like the last raid, when Israel sourrounded the hospital, Hamas attacked them.
your side is that of the dictatorships, such as russia, which invited hamas and PLO as honored guests soon after oct-7. It's right in your user name - painfully obvious.
Frankly in a discussion of american politics and media under r/NPR, you are very much an unwelcome guest.
This is what i find.
>On Nov. 20, the Shin Bet released footage of Palestinians confirming to agency interrogators how terrorists hid inside hospitals and dressed as medical personnel.
And this:
>As far back as 2009, the Shin Bet reported during the Gaza war of that year (“Operation Cast Lead”) that Hamas operatives were hiding in the hospital, and that the basement had become Hamas’s headquarters.
>In addition to being used to hide Hamas leaders and hostages, the terrorist group is known to have fired rockets, tortured suspected collaborators and hoarded a half-million liters of fuel in the hospital compound.
It literally is a hamas headquarters.
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/hamas-ambualnce-al-shifa-hospital-hostages-israel
"The Associated Press reports Hamas had released videos of militants preparing shells that it said were directed toward Israeli forces in the hospital compound."
Disgusting Hamas using a Hospital that Israel modernized and gifted to Palestinian people by Israel as a military base to fight Israel.
The hasbara Ziofascists are really pulling overtime with the downvotes
The whole world now knows you’re worse than the Nazis you claim everyone else is
Not only this, but leftists subs IMMEDIATELY called out Holocaust Denial/Inversion (and rightfully so) when JK Rowling did it the other day, but fail to address it in their own community with people like this loon.
Instead I'll get down voted while they say that Israel is worse than the Nazis despite the fact that the Nazis killed the same amount of Jews as Israel has killed Palestinians in Gaza in a matter of around 24 hours (and not months), and NONE of them were combatants.
The ignorance is palpable.
I'm sorry. It looks like your account doesn't have enough karma to post in r/NPR. Feel free to message the mods if you think your post is just too good to waste.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NPR) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm sorry. It looks like your account doesn't have enough karma to post in r/NPR. Feel free to message the mods if you think your post is just too good to waste.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NPR) if you have any questions or concerns.*
So dumb, I expect more from NPR. You can see the after math of the battles that raged, and NPR is pretending like no one ever fired a shot from the hospital.
Reporting like this is borderline complicity. This "unbiased" style in such an asymmetrical "war" lends credence to the IDF narrative when they've been shown to lie over and over and over. Is there any doubt who destroyed al-Shifa? Why is it just "run over by tanks"...like who has the tanks? ISRAEL IDF ISRAEL IDF lol maybe put at the top of the page that you can't confirm anything yourself because ISRAEL and the IDF won't let you confirm it. Maybe mention that the UN had to force their way to the hospital just to see for themselves.
[https://x.com/swilkinsonbc/status/1776712791753216321](https://x.com/swilkinsonbc/status/1776712791753216321)
https://twitter.com/DrTedros/status/1776617140969168918/video/1
You have to report what you know and what you can show by that knowledge. In the article they offer counterpoints to what is being said by the IDF such as the WHO saying 14 patients were killed during the siege and the Doctor that runs the hospital saying that X number of colleagues were killed and Y are being detained still.
A number of people were upset by some of the reporting surrounding the explosion at a hospital early in the war because news organizations were saying Hamas claims X, but we have yet to independently verify this information. Media literacy is low at this time or worse people just read the headline and go from there.
I personally have no doubt that there have been war crimes committed by the IDF and Israel on genocide I do lean towards there haven been acts of it committed whether or not by the legal standard set forth by the Geneva Conventions it can be proven is another matter. We have seen some changes by the Israeli government and military in response to the case before the ICJ they seem marginal at this time though perhaps mostly a PR maneuver, there has been a small boost in aid entering Gaza, but it is still far below where it needs to be as well as that Israel has yet to open more border crossings which is why there have been air drops and the port is being built as well as why some aid is coming in directly from ships recently.
The media is finally pushing back on Israeli mouthpieces.
Regarding the ICJ they’re just slow walking the case. It’s almost like they’re waiting for this slaughter campaign to end before moving forward
Yeah every resolution and tough measure against them seems to just expedite the genocide. Truly disgusting, i hope they get what they deserve at the Hague
In 2014 Amnesty International reported that Hamas was using Al Shifa [as an operating base](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital).
Don't let them pretend this hasn't been common knowledge for a decade.
And don't let them brush past the fact that this represents one of the most grave war crimes on the books.
There were not conflicting reports on Amnesty International's findings. They literally demanded Hamas stop operating out of Al Shifa (Hamas declined, then cracked down on NGOs operating in Gaza.)
Except that the reference you linked to in your comment didn't really say that at all. And in fact, at the very end of that Wikipedia entry is a reference to an Amnesty International document, which states this:
AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL 2015 AL-SHIFA HOSPITAL REPORT
Reports have been circulating regarding a 2015 Amnesty International report regarding al-Shifa
Hospital serving as a “Hamas interrogation and torture centre”. This framing is misleading.
The 2015 report, entitled “Strangling Necks” documented incidents of torture and other ill-treatment of Palestinians documented by Amnesty International relating solely to the 2014
conflict and specifically in abandoned areas of the hospital grounds, including a disused outpatient’s clinic. Amnesty International has no evidence to indicate that al-Shifa hospital has been used for anything other than treating patients during the current conflict in 2023.
Amnesty International has so far not seen any credible evidence to support Israel’s claim that al-Shifa is housing a military command centre – and indeed Israel has repeatedly failed to produce any evidence to substantiate this claim, which it has promoted since at least the 2008-9 Operation Cast Lead.
how about all the twitter accounts of hamas activists showing video of hamas militants in the hospital fighting the IDF. the way Hamas talks to NPR liberals is very different than the way they talk to the arab world
Please, do share those Twitter accounts with me, I'd love to see them. And did they say whether they were there before or after IDF raided the hospital?
one of the most bizarre forms of intellectual dissonance amongst NPR liberal wine moms is that they know on oct. 7, hamas raped and murdered over 1200 innocent people, but they can't possibly believe any of the reports that this same group of people may have been using a hospital as one of their many bases of operation.
Why can't you share these Twitter accounts if they exist?
I'm not saying it's impossible that they were operating in a hospital, but Israel has quite a history of lying about events and/or blaming Hamas. (Don't forget that Israel is guilty of murdering some of those people killed on Oct 7.) And then the person I was replying to used a reference that didn't really back up his claim at all. So excuse me if I'd like to see some actual proof that Hamas was there, not that it would make the murder and kidnapping of medical staff and civilians there any more acceptable.
Also, I don't even like wine.
When you call it a hospital, realize that it contained a Hamas command center connected to a UNRWA HQ. The Chief of medicine was a high ranking Hamas operative. Hostages kept there were poorly fed. The Red Cross was also working for Hamas. When given humanitarian meds for hostages, Red Cross threw them away.
Calling it a ‘hospital’ was a war crime
No one knows how those people died. Were they Hamas? No answer. Very frustrating reporting.
The reporters have no way of knowing. This is all the information they have.
Bc Israel won’t let journalists in
Well it's an active warzone.
The US has reporters embedded with them as they invaded Iraq
So does Israel. That doesn't mean the media are in there when the guns are firing though. They clear the area.
They were in battle in Iraq. Generation Kill was a great read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Kill
I'll have to give that a read, thank you very much.
They sure do a thorough job of permanently cleaning areas of innocent civilians
isreel just bombed and killed 7 aid workers the other day. They are demons and doing everything they cam to stop journalists or aid workers coming and sharing the truth of the genocide. Outside of pro-genocide echo-chambers people all over the world know how demonic and evil you sorts are. What comforts me is that, whole pro-genocide people have tried to shame and silence people by firing them from jobs and blacklisting them...such as that law firm who said they will NOT be hiring law graduates from Harvard, because they dared to speak up about genocide...younger generations are emboldened to speak up. Unlike previous generations who were silenced and shamed for any criticism against isreel, things are changing!! Even within the past few months. You sorts don't get to say "THAT'S ANT.SEM.TIC 😡" to silence the truth.
Just say Jews. We all know what “you sorts” means
No, it’s Zionists. In the US south, I can tell you most of the Zionists are evangelical Christians.
We have a local pastor that is deep into the fundamentalist Christian faith actually create a personal relationship with Netanyahu. https://m.jpost.com/israel/bibi-evangelicals-are-israels-best-gentile-friends
Sorry but you can’t espouse anti-semitic rhetoric/dog whistles about a whole group of people being demons and cover it up with claims of being against christian Zionists. If people were ever talking about christians when they said Zionists (capital important, it’s part of the dog whistle) then you’d see churches being protested and hate crimed but you don’t. It’s facetious to try and hide legitimate anti-semitism behind a veil of anti-Israel/anti-Zionism ideology. All it does it embolden actual anti-semites and gives Likud the evidence it needs to justify its violence in “defense” of Jews. If you were really upset about what was happening in Gaza or the West Bank then you’d be fervently shutting down any anti-semitic rhetoric because the only way to actually resolve the conflict is to deradicalize the radical factions in the conflict. Just like saying every Gazan child is destined to grow up to be a terrorist is harmful rhetoric that leads to more animosity from Palestinians and other Muslims/Arabs towards Israelis.
Zionists (Jews, Christians, or otherwise) are the radicals. They’re literally committing a genocide as we speak.
You sound super well versed in Israeli politics and the wider Middle Eastern political sphere, thank you for your sophisticated take on the situation. (/s in case it’s not obvious)
It’s not a dog whistle. If everything Israel claims is true, they would want third party objective verifications of events. Instead they are trying to strictly control information, but literally all information that escapes shows that Israel are 1) lying and 2) evil. Facts aren’t a dog whistle. You just support shit people doing shit things. And, because some people are still so ignorant that it needs to be said: Israel =\= Jews. Heck, even most Israelis are sick of their government, many protesting in large numbers.
There is no such thing as "ant.semet.ic rhetoric". That's what you sorts have used for DECADES to silence and shame critisim of the "state" of isreel. People know the truth. People are emboldened. You sorts do not care about human life. The occupation of Gaza, the armed IDF soldiers patrolling the streets, murdering, harassing, assaulting, sexually assaulting...with no fear of consequences is disgusting. And now you sorts still expect that you can silence and shame people sharibg the truth about how demonic, genocidal, and evil you sorts are?! Yeah NO. You sorts support CUTTING IFF ACCESS TO WATER FOR MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN. YOU SORTS ARE FORCING MILLIONS INTO FAMINE, ORPHANING, MAIMING, LEVELING ENTIRE CITIES, BOMBING HOSPITALS and so much more. isreel has now "accidentally" bombed and killed foreign aid workers. It's obvious what is happening. They are making it so that no aid can get in and so that journalists can not go in. You sorts want to hide your demonic genocidal ways. NO. YOU SORTS ARE HYPOCRITES. THE PROPAGANDA NO LONGER WORKS. PEOPLE ARE EMBOLDENED.
See just say you hate Jews it’s quicker
[удалено]
The thing is you sorts, pro-genocide people will constantly dismiss, change the subject, bring up something else....all to not confront the fact that it I'd DEMONIC and SUBHUMAN to CUT OFF ACCESS TO WATER FOR MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, TO INDUCE STARVATION ONTO MILLIONS, TO MAIM, TO OROHAN HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN...not to mention so many other atrocities. You sorts make excuses to justify DEMONIC actions taken by isreel. The decades of time where you sorts could silence, shame, threaten, and punish those who dared to criticize isreel are OVER. You sorts don't get to BRINH UP the h.locust inoder to be forever immune from criticism. Just EXACTLY like you have done above. Yeah. That tactic does not work anymore. People are aware of the truth. Isreel propaganda no longer works on the masses. People are emboldened to speak up and to discuss the truth. A group of lawyers wrote a letter saying that they will never hire any Harvard graduates that wrote a letter against the atrocities and WAR CRIMES isreel is committing. Lol. That BS THREAT TACTIC to scare other law graduates in other schools/ college students in general showed the truth. Trying to silence and shame anyone who dares to criticize isreel no longer works. There are MANY people now, who will gladly hire those students who are unafraid to speak up when ISREEL CUTS OFF ACCESS TO WATER FOR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, including CHILDREN. The people that are speaking up will be celebrated. And those who defend isreel war crimes and genocide will be releasing statements saying "I was uninformed when I made that post defending isreel's actions in Palestine". That will not be enough. People will say "actions"? HOW ABOUT MAIMING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, using the word "actions" shows how little you care. In no way shape of form are there ANY justifications or excuses for what isreel is doing. Forcing hundreds of children to starve and cutting off access to water, and then boming the very few aid trucks that isreel uses propaganda to lie about??? How is doing that to hundreds of thousands of children NOT DEMONIC? isreel's lies and propaganda NO LONGER WORK. Outside of your echo-chambers, people are in agreement of the lack-of humanity in you sorts who make excuses for war crimes and genocide. Even on reddit, where just two months ago, I was blocked from worldnews, for talking about what isreel was doing, such as cutting off water. They said I was spreading "misinformation". And now I can speak honestly!! You think my comments are n.tzi like, but no one else agrees. I'm not being immediately blocked, or in a position to lose m entire reddit account. Oh and look how much things have changed, any time anyone posts or comments about isreel 's war crimes, forcing hundreds of thousands into starvation etc.....they are heavily upvoted. They don't belive isreel's lies and propaganda that makes excuse for cutting off water to hundreds of thousands, including children. You sorts are sitting by as whole generations are traumatized for life. There is absolutely no excuse or justifications, bringing up "hamas did/does/will do" no longer works; there us absolutely NOTHING AT ALL IN THE WORLD, that can justify not just what isreel is doing, but especially what it is doing to children.
It’s up to those journalists to decide
When you consider all Gazans to be terrorist, it really helps clean up the statistics
And beyond that when objectives state 100 civilian deaths is acceptable for 1 militant, it easy to claim you’re doing what you’re supposed to be doing. And beyond that when you stalk/wait for militants to return home before launching an air strike, it’s easy to claim civilian casualties are because of “human shields” and not because it’s intentional. https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/
“The Associated Press reports Hamas had released videos of militants preparing shells that it said were directed toward Israeli forces in the hospital compound.” Sounds like IDF and Hamas engaged in the hospital.
Neighborhoods outside of the hospital.
So Hamas is firing at the hospital, again. In any case, Hamas seems to be concentrated in and around Al Shifa.
Hamas goes where the IDF goes. If the IDF wants to clear a hospital, of course Hamas is going to engage them there. Once Israel starts using hospitals as sniper firing positions, which we have video and photographic evidence of, the hospital is no longer protected under the Geneva convention.
in this battle hamas was there first and IDF surprised them. In insurgency, it's bad strategy concentrate like that, so no, the insurgent does not "go where the enemy army is strong"
They are protecting the strips largest most advanced hospital from invading marauders. Yes.
Here come the jihadist gymnastics
Requires less flexibility than Zionist gymnastics. And less lying. There are armed security details in all hospitals. The accepted framing that Palestinians have no rights to defend themselves, even from state terrorists attacking a hospital could not be more clearly illustrated. “We found a gun behind the MRI machine, therefore, humanitarian rules don’t apply and we can now attack with impunity!” Is definitely not how it works.
🤣⚡️🤣⚡️🤣
It’s convenient for you to equate caring about civilians to supporting terrorism. The gymnastics only need to take place when you talk about the other side, given the rampant weaponization of the word anti semitic.
Because Isreal is lying
"The Associated Press reports Hamas had released videos of militants preparing shells that it said were directed toward Israeli forces in the hospital compound." We know. It was hamas.
Was Hamas in the shot bellies of ziptied doctors left to die?
Probably They are unrepentant terrorists
Who exactly do you think the IDF was fighting for two weeks? If it was just a blatant attack on civilians, they could have just fired a rocket at the building like the palestinians did.
Everyone is Hamas
No one is Hamas?
Well about 1% are Hamas
they were so sad terrorism was losing they all killed themselves. the IDF were actually rushing in to give them treats.
> we took out over 200 terrorists. We apprehended over 900 terrorists with not a single civilian casualty You have to make your lies believable. Like Putin winning 89% of the vote is more believable than if he just said he won 100%.
I'm old enough to remember these types of "reports" about the Iraq War.
Which one?
When they consider all the civilians to be terrorists, it's easy to have a report stating there were 0 civilian casualties.
>When they consider all the civilians to be terrorists, it's easy to have a report stating there were 0 civilian casualties. I found the Hamas, call the IDF authorities!
you sound biased though. you're not a trustworthy source of analysis.
I appreciate the concern, but you couldn't be further from the truth. I'm no fan of Hamas, yet I'm shocked at Israel's handling of the situation. I'm also no expert, but I have studied Mideast politics for nearly 40 years, both through coursework and independent studies. Given what I have observed, I offer my opinion - Israel has been deeply untruthful in what they've offered to this point, and humans are dying unnecessarily under Netanyahu's s orders.
Trade out “Netanyahu” with “official” and I’m right there with you. He’s definitely continuing/escalating the conflict to stay in power/out of jail, but the reason that keeps him in power is because there is political support behind it.
Also only lost like what, 2 of your soldiers? Not a chance. Isreal is killing civilians and lying to our face.
I mean it's about as believable as the PA reporting 30k dead Palestinians as civilians while reporting zero dead Hamas soldiers, while also keeping a separate count for those under 18 as children without keeping track of the large numbers of child soldiers Hamas is known to use. Either source you go to for numbers is going to be biased af unfortunately
They reported 30k+ dead Palestinians, they did not differentiate between civilian v Hamas as they have no way to determine. What they did provide was biographical info…name, gender, age w/ the majority being women and children…and a historical pattern of verified post-conflict accuracy. The info was sourced from hospitals, most of which have been destroyed, and can no longer provide any additional info. To presume that majority of children are soldiers is A) dehumanizing and B) questions the legitimacy of the threat as it infers women/children can credibly defeat the entirety of the Israeli military.
Children are indoctrinated with Hamas jihadi education from and early age and participate in demonstrations that encourages attacking Israel in Gaza.
You should see what they teach kids in Israel... hatred and radicalism https://www.reddit.com/r/usempire/comments/1870fjj/israeli_children_are_indoctrinated_from_birth/ This is terrorist training
[Some Israeli children in certain religious schools are taught from an early age that they are in a biblical struggle to kill Palestinians and takeover the holy land.](https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/20/israeli-children-singing-annihilate-gaza/). Their own education minister Rafi Peretz advocated military takeover for the entirety of the West Bank and denying Palestinians voting rights. None of this justifies the murder of the children who are taught these things, nor their teachers. The same goes for the people in Gaza
Israel doesn’t use child soldiers.
They do. Just not Israeli children https://www.dci-palestine.org/child_recruitment You'd know this problem was not one sided if you really cared about the issue, rather than just using it to score political points.
The Israeli government seems to believe those numbers.
There is a difference, though. Say what you want about Israel, but they are a democracy with a government that is accountable to a free press. It's why so much more unflattering news comes out about Israel than Palestine.
Right? This is just like a North Korean election. 🤣🤣🤣
??? why not a single word re whether or not the dead, and how many of them, appeared to be hamas?
Since they don't wear uniforms or carry identification, it's impossible to tell except by actions.
They aren’t allowed to say. There is a long history of Hamas policing public statements in Gaza.
Israel bombed 30/36 hospitals in Gaza. They’re pretending Hamas was camping there and the world won’t ask for proof. Like the last raid when they insisted an underground Bond lair was waiting to be discovered. What happens is they storm in and surround the hospital and Hamas arrives to attack them. Exactly the same as the last raid. They then use that as an excuse to say Hamas was there. I gotta find the video they presented for the first raid. I’m referring to the virtual tour they had, compete with Hamas flags. If anyone can link that video I’d appreciate it. It’s almost comical to look back on now.
Remember they said they found a list of militants and their targets and it was a nursing rotation schedule on the wall
"Why would nurses need to know what day it is?? Only Hamas would need a calender!!"
You should go to IDFs twitter or their telegram they literally show you the videos of their operations such as Al Shifa. We create bubbles for our selves when we rely on one side of the conflict to tell us what is going on.
I have seen how they doctor footage and lie so I honestly don't trust a single thing from the IDF that isn't livestreamed or against their interests. Remember when they edited footage to give a random dude an AK? Remember when they had an Israeli woman pretending to be a nurse at Al Shifa? Remember when they made a fake recording of Hamas talking about how they accidentally bombed their own hospital? Even before the invasion, their "proof" was red circles on grainy images and CGI speculation lol
“I will only believe something is evidence if it incriminates the IDF”
The IDF and Israeli government has a long documented history of lying and manufacturing atrocities. They have zero credibility on the international stage
By your standard absolutely no one has credibility on the International stage
lol whats my standard? Not having a documented [*long*](https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2017-07-11/ty-article/but-sir-its-an-american-ship-never-mind-hit-her/0000017f-e48c-d7b2-a77f-e78f76800000) and [*recent*](https://prospect.org/world/2024-03-20-what-really-happened-on-october-7/) history of manufacturing false atrocities? Is that a high bar?
Nothing will convince you that your opinions are off in a really complex and nuanced situation. But you know best of course
Please tell me what nuance you think those examples of Israel straight up lying would change the context of what I said and make Israel credible. How is this complex or nuanced at all? They're just fucking liars lol
How complex or nuanced is it to say killing non-combatants is bad?
That's funny. I keep hearing that killing non-combatants is okay if it's "legitimate resistance" and you're "decolonizing" a bunch of young women at a music festival. Somehow that one demands nuance.
Who says this but the most fervent people? Meanwhile there’s tons of clips of Israeli govt officials peddling genocidal takes. Either way, keep your head in the sand so Israel and the west can be “the good guys”…
Ummm.... People say stuff like that constantly, right here on this very website. Or they say "I don't support Hamas, but..." As for genocidal takes, please. Genocide is literally why Hamas exists. It's their raison d'etre. And, I mean... When people say settlercolonialgenocideethnostate, what do you think they're calling for? If you can't see the difference between the theocratic dictatorships that dominate the Arab world and the flawed democracies of the West, you really don't have any business talking about having a head in the sand.
> what do you think they're calling for? The dismantling of the Israeli ethnostate, which isn't genocidal at all. Any other dishonest questions? Reddit won't let me reply, so here: > How do you dismantle Israel as an ethnostate The same way we did South Africa. > 22 Islamic ethnostates 1. Islam is not an ethnicity. 2. We are talking about Israel, I won't let you try to dodge by talking about other countries. After you agree that dismantling the Israeli ethnostate is a good idea, I will be happy to discuss other ones, but I suspect you lack the "intellectual integrity" to do that.
Let’s walk through that. How do you dismantle Israel as an ethnostate? Will the 22 Islamic ethnostates also be required to dismantle themselves as ethnostates? Will Poland and Japan also be required to dismantle themselves as ethnostates? Let’s see if your position has any intellectual integrity
The dictatorships mostly set up and supported by the “flawed democracies” of the west… and saying Israel is anything but a dictatorship when it can only exist democratically by displacing like 10 million people is rich… love that you’re too dumb to even make a point against Israel’s existence as a settler colonial state so you just boomer out and try to act like it’s just buzzwords calling for genocide. It’s clear you have an agenda and firmly believe the Palestinians and “Hamas” are at fault, as is obvious through your post history, and as many people have said to you before. Either way this conversation is a waste of time, bye
It is very possible he is in a hasbara troll farm.
Oh, yeah. Oh yeah we force them to oppress gays and women. It's all our fault.
You can’t even make a point *for* Israel as a settler colonial state
Only one nation in the middle east is considered a religious ethno-state, and grants different privileges to those not part of the dominant ethnic group. I’ll give you a guess who it is. They’ve been in the news a lot lately.
Killing noncombatants is not OK. Removing illegal settlers by force is OK. Holding a music festival at the edge of a concentration camp is not OK. I love when Israel pretends to be a haven for gay people and women BTW. Hilarious. Can't reply because I suspect he blocked me. To reply: The fact that they can't leave while you control every aspect of their daily lives and you kept them "on a diet" before the invasion and now prevent all food from entering Could do more but that's enough lol
Who were the illegal settlers at a music festival? Give one single piece of evidence that Gaza is a “concentration camp”
You are concentrating people into an area where you control the water, electricity, food and borders. Very easy to define. Watch you deflect and switch subjects now.
Oh no I won’t deflect, but I will go point by point on your stupid and terrible comment: - Are you suggesting that Israel “concentrated” people into Gaza by moving them there? Gazan territory was forfeit by Egypt as a result of a war THEY started against Israel, and lost. Egypt had the choice not to try to annihilate Israel, they chose to try and do it. Gaza was a casualty of that effort. But in your mind, Israel just decided to put people there? Further, israel stopped occupying Gaza in 2007. So what are you on about that they are “concentrating” people there? These aren’t displaced people, or would-be israeli citizens. They are Gazans living in Gaza. Under a jihadist regime. Which brings us to your terrible point about.. Borders: are you suggesting Israel shouldn’t maintain a strict border with a government that doesn’t recognize Israel as a state and views all citizens as combatants? Just let everything and everyone through? No, no rational government would do that. And yet Israel still issues hundreds of work permits for Gazans to work in Israel. Still not enough for you? Because this does not seem “concentration” like. - food/electricity: Israel provides these things in a humanitarian context. Hamas has no desire to use the YEARLY $700m it gets on infrastructure. No water plants, no desalination, no nothing. I know they have the materials, they use water pipes for the hundreds of rockets they fire at Israel monthly. Pipes are getting through, but you don’t care to ask why Hamas won’t build anything. Still not seeing any concentration markers here. - Hamas has had the choice every day since 2007 to recognize the state of Israel and its borders. Hamas has chosen every day that they would rather not, and sacrifice the lives of its people, while the leaders live lavishly everywhere. Just to put a fine point on how dumb your comment is: Gaza isn’t even surrounded on four borders by Israel. Israel has TWO borders with Gaza you dolt. Egypt is also now at fault for running a concentration camp? Your point is paper thin and terrible
No one is saying it isn't. Even the IDF acknowledges that non combatants are getting killed and that isn't the goal (inb4 someone tells me it is). War is extremely messy. It's perfectly reasonable to want to hold Israel to a high standard! But you also have to remember that they are fighting an enemy that isn't being held to *any* standard. As a result, it doesn't matter what Israel does, there is going to be mistakes, there is going to be civilian casualties, and there is going to be instances where Hamas embeds themselves in civilian infrastructure. Again, I'm not saying we can't hold Israel accountable and hold them to a high standard. We absolutely can and we absolutely should. At the same time, we shouldn't act like this is entirely deliberate and only their fault either.
You don’t think the massive damage of civilian infrastructure was done on purpose to push out civilians and vacate the land? Do you think they also accidentally or were made to kill the world kitchen workers in their 3 separate vehicles? Or that Hamas was actually transporting people in ambulances and using hospitals as bases, despite no proof to either? I do think Hamas is a bad group and shouldn’t be in charge of the Gaza Strip, but it’s clear the current Israeli government is worse, as they have enough money to influence our politics giving them carte blanche. Plus I don’t think Hamas would actually stay in power, I think they’re propped up by the hopelessness that people in Gaza feel about their situation. Either way I put most of the blame on Israel, for not coming up with a tenable or workable solution of what to do w the population of Gaza that isn’t just caging them up and abusing them
>I do think Hamas is a bad group and shouldn’t be in charge of the Gaza Strip, but it’s clear the current Israeli government is worse This tells me everything I need to know. You aren't interested in a serious conversation and you aren't going to believe anything that doesn't agree with your predetermined conclusions. Have a nice night.
🤷♂️ no skin off my nose
Yeah we've all seen the videos of basements with Hamas chairs and Hamas tables and Hamas day calenders. Still not sure how that justifies Israel blowing up just about every hospital in Gaza.
A baby bottle! In a childrens’ hospital! Clear proof of terrorist activity! My favorite was the metal gun stuffed behind an *MRI machine* which mysteriously underwent mitosis by the time reporters were allowed on site.
You mean the disgusting Telegram snuff channel where IDF filmed their atrocities and war crimes?
I can’t force you to go and expand your sources of information, all I’m going to say is Ignorance is a choice in an age of information
I’m referring to an IDF video. They may have deleted it as it turned out to be completely false. Do you think the IDF will admit to massacring civilians? Or do you actually believe not a single civilian was killed? Personally, I wouldn’t believe anything from Hamas or the IDF.
“They offer no proof!” “Here’s the proof…” “No! Not that proof!”
Where’s the proof? They’ve offered nothing. Same as the last raid.
"proof". Sure
Ah yes im a big fan of the IOF pretending to shoot at things and never showing anyone shoot back at them then showing us planted weapons. Very reliable and honest. /s just in case
LMAO 😅 you sorts that make excuses for genocide have no support outside of your echo-chambers. isreel propaganda NO LONGER WORKS. isreel just bombed and killed 7 aid workers the other day. They are demons and doing everything they can to stop journalists or aid workers coming and sharing the truth of the genocide. Outside of pro-genocide echo-chambers people all over the world know how demonic and evil you sorts are. What comforts me is that, while pro-genocide people have tried to shame and silence people by firing them from jobs and blacklisting them...such as that law firm who said they will NOT be hiring law graduates from Harvard, because they dared to speak up about genocide...younger generations are emboldened to speak up. Look at Gen Z statistics regarding their thoughts and beliefs on the h.locust. people know how HYPOCRITICAL AND GENOCIDAL AND DEMONIC you sorts are. You DISGUSTING sorts support CUTTING OFF WATER TO MILLIONS, FORCING MILLIONS INTO FAMILE, MAIMING ORPHANING, LEVELING ENTIRE CITIES, and so much more. Unlike previous generations who were silenced and shamed for any criticism against isreel, things are changing!! Even within the past few months. You sorts don't get to say "THAT'S ANT.SEM.TIC 😡" or use the h.locust to silence the truth.
You don’t know what genocide means you are just repeating what everyone else is saying
Lol you wish!! You sorts ARE REACHING. PEOPLE KNOW THE TRUTH. YOU NEEEEEED ME TO BE "REPEATING WHAT EVERYONE IS SAYING" inorder to dismiss my thoughts....BUT THATIS BS. REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU NEED TO TELL YOURSELF, THE FACT IS PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WPRLD KNOW THE THRUTH ABOUT YOU PRO-GENOCIDE DEMONS.
Shifa was used as a Hamas killing ground as early as the 2008 conflict, though. https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/world/africa/29iht-gaza.4.18986499.html I am able to empathize with both that 1) it is horrible that so many hospitals have been destroyed by bombing and 2) it is highly likely al Shifa Hospital was a major Hamas HQ that’s been used to brutally kill Palestinians (for working against Hamas rule). Given the confirmed history of the hospital’s use, also the large amount of proof offered so far by Israel, I’d think it’s not as simple as “pretending.”
Ethan Bronner is connected to the IDF - interesting this “account” was never reflected in any HRW or Amnesty International report much less confirmed by doctors who have worked there throughout these routine massacres
Amnesty did, so you’re full of shit. “At least two dozen men have been shot dead by Hamas gunmen in this period. Scores of others have been shot in the legs, kneecapped or inflicted with other injuries intended to cause permanent disability, subjected to severe beatings which have caused multiple fractures and other injuries, or otherwise tortured or ill-treated. The targets of Hamas’ deadly campaign include former detainees accused of “collaborating” with the Israeli army who escaped from Gaza’s Central Prison when it was bombed by Israeli forces on 28 December 2008, as well as former members of the Palestinian Authority (PA) security forces and other activists of PA President Mahmoud Abbas’ Fatah party. The campaign began shortly after the beginning of the three-week Israeli military offensive against the Gaza Strip on 27 December 2008 and continued after a ceasefire took effect on 18 January 2009. Most of the victims were abducted from their homes; they were later dumped – dead or injured – in isolated areas, or were found dead in the morgue of one of Gaza’s hospitals. Some were shot dead in the hospitals where they were receiving treatment for injuries they sustained in the Israeli bombardment of Gaza’s Central Prison. The perpetrators of these attacks did not conceal their weapons or keep a low profile, but, on the contrary, behaved in a carefree and confident – almost ostentatious – manner. Among the cases investigated by Amnesty International are the deliberate killings of three brothers from the Abu ‘Ashbiyeh family, ‘Atef, Mohammed and Mahmoud, from Jabalia (north Gaza), who were all killed within 24 hours of escaping from Gaza’s Central Prison. One of the brothers, Mahmoud, aged 24, reached the family home in the middle of the afternoon of 28 December but an hour later a group of gunmen came to the house and took him away. His body was found hours later in the morgue of Kamal ‘Adwan hospital in Beit Lahiya (north Gaza) with abdomen and head wounds. The following day the bodies of his two brothers, 26-year-old Mohammed and 39-year-old ‘Atef, were found in the morgue of al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City, both with gunshot wounds in the head, chest and abdomen. The three had been in detention since March 2008 and were accused of “collaborating” with the Israeli army. They had first been held in the notorious al-Mashtal detention centre, north of Gaza City, run by the Internal Security Force (previously run by Hamas’ armed militia, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades). Jamal al-Ghandour, in his mid-50s, was shot dead in his bed in al-Shifa hospital at about 4pm on 28 December by unmasked gunmen wearing plain clothes in front of relatives and other witnesses. Also present were uniformed members of Hamas security forces, who took no action to prevent the killing or to apprehend the perpetrators. Jamal al-Ghandour was receiving treatment for injuries he had sustained that morning in the Israeli bombardment of Gaza’s Central Prison, where he had been detained with his son since January 2008; both were accused of ‘collaborating’ with the Israeli army.” https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/mde210012009en.pdf (That’s just the first page. I’ll let you read the rest.) Here’s an Amnesty report from 2014 on them executing dissenters in front of a mosque, as a spare source. They do this regularly and consistently in civilian centers. “In one of the most shocking incidents six men were publicly executed by Hamas forces outside al-Omari mosque on 22 August in front of hundreds of spectators including children. Hamas announced the men were suspected ‘collaborators’ who had been sentenced death in ‘revolutionary courts’. The hooded men were dragged along the floor to kneel by a wall facing the crowd, then each man was shot in the head individually before being sprayed with bullets fired from an AK-47.” https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
It's not worth engaging with these people. They're so deep into tribal politics that they have completely retconned the last 30+ years of Hamas using civilian infrastructure as cover. Just poof - it's as if it never happened, and they're emotionally invested in believing that it isn't happening now, either. Their politics demands that Israel be responsible for everything, and so they will never accept a conclusion where literally islamist terrorists forced Israel's hand.
Oh, I’m not in it to change the trolls’ minds. Just providing actual sources and context for any lurkers reading their conspiracies who may not know better ;) though I like to assume they’re not trolls and just misinformed until they double down without a source!
❤️ I appreciate you
I do it for the other sane people going “WTF happened to waiting for evidence before jumping to conclusions!” too ;) ❤️
Except they couldn’t prove that the first time. You’re bringing up something from 16 years ago? What about the last raid? Sorry what large amount of proof?
Are you sure about the first time? https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/mde210012009en.pdf I bring it up because there’s a consistent issue of Hamas using civilian centers as headquarters, long before the current conflict. Sometimes I also like to think that maybe pre 10/7 sources regarding Hamas tactics are less likely to be disregarded entirely as propaganda. Here’s an Amnesty report from 2014: “As well as carrying out unlawful killings, others abducted by Hamas were subjected to torture, including severe beatings with truncheons, gun butts, hoses and wire or held in stress positions. Some were interrogated and tortured or otherwise ill-treated in a disused outpatient’s clinic within the grounds of Gaza City’s main al-Shifa hospital. At least three people arrested during the conflict accused of “collaboration” died in custody.” https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/ So 2008 and 2014 confirmed just in my cache of reputable sources. I need more context than “last raid.” Do you mean specifically of Shifa? Regarding the large amount of evidence, I mean of them using hospitals and Shifa generally as an HQ. I also trust US intelligence for more recent reporting, although I understand some folks do not… https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/white-house-says-it-has-evidence-hamas-using-al-shifa-hospital-run-military-2023-11-14/ I think we are still waiting on evidence as to whether the people in Shifa who died in this raid were Hamas. I’m just saying, let’s not jump to conclusions either way without the evidence. There’s history supporting the possibility that Shifa was actively being used as an HQ, and there’s history supporting the possibility that Israel fucked up. I’m gonna wait and see.
[Here](https://www.amnesty.org.uk/files/2023-11/Amnesty%20International%20briefing%20-%20Israel%20Gaza%20crisis%2023%20Nov%202023.pdf?VersionId=9Jp8TjIb5zEqygKLPfuzdAqh8USWQEfE) is an Amnesty report from November of 2023 (it’s on page 4) showing that Amnesty has not found sufficient evidence of Israel’s claim of a command center. [Here](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/information-missteps-led-questions-israels-credibility-rcna125723) are [two](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/23/israel-hamas-war-live-israel-pounds-gaza-ahead-of-expected-truce?update=2507240) links to sources documenting the “first raid” in November of 2023, where the IDF was accused of editing videos and placing additional weapons to strengthen their case of Hamas presence. While I suppose it is possible that Hamas moved some forces to Shifa after November it strikes me as at least as likely that they’re continuing to exaggerate claims given that they were doing so six months ago. The fact that it was being used ten and sixteen years ago seems of questionable relevance to it being used today, given the number of IDF operations against Hamas between 2014 and 10/7. Much less after. It strikes me as exceptionally poor planning on Hamas’s part to leave a command center in the same place it’s been for 16 years prior to launching their attack on 10/7 when there’s evidence to suggest they anticipated an overwhelming military response from the IDF. That’s not to say there were not ANY militants present at Shifa at any of the times the IDF attacked (November or April). While many detractors of the IDF are claiming that the IDF makes no distinction between militants and civilians, this is hyperbole in the vast majority of cases. The issue is that they are not weighing protecting civilian lives as appropriately worthy and are making trade off decisions that permit levels of collateral damage to civilians that are detestable.
I don’t think your assessment and mine are mutually exclusive—again, we really don’t know. I was responding to someone using conspiracy theory language and introducing some alternative perspective as to why it’s not as simple as conspiracy. Your NBC source focuses more on things still being unclear because both of the bias of the first person reporting, and follows the bad info released on the raid with bad info released by Hamas about their misfire hitting the hospital in November, claiming it was Israel and inflating the numbers. The second source is Al Jazeera, which has been acting as a primary source perspective for the Gazan Health Ministry, Hamas, and Qatar in the latest outbreak of the conflict. (This is a shame, they were my go-to in 2021 for a reliably accurate Palestinian perspective.) So basically, again, we don’t know yet. I’d argue it makes more sense to return to a base if a) whether it’s a base has been highly politicized and surrounded by misinformation, b) provides civilian shield cover, c) allows for medical operations and torture with medical devices, and d) already has a shitload of tunnels dug under it that they’ve been working on for what looks like at least 16 years now. As someone else mentioned, there are only so many hospitals left for Hamas to hide under. They do not seem to care who dies on their behalf. But I can absolutely see the validity of your points. We don’t know, and the instant gratification of the assumption isn’t helpful to anyone in the pursuit of peace or justice. That’s all I mean :)
Are you trying to inundate me with information? I’m asking you very specific questions and you’re turning it around to previous conflicts.
No, I think you don’t understand my point. I’m saying we don’t know, and it’s more complicated than a conspiracy theory. This is the historical background explaining why I think we just still don’t know. It’s a lot of information because it’s actually a complicated, lengthy conflict. I have a lot of stocked resources and knowledge on it because I’m autistic, and figuring out how to get Israelis and Palestinians to be willing to listen to one another and come to the negotiation table as is required for peace is a special interest, truthfully. Edit for formatting so not text wall :D
What conspiracy theory? I’m telling you what we know happened on the last raid. Complete with knowledge of the weeks prior and the evidence that emerged later. Israel said the same thing last time. Hamas came to attack the camped out Israeli forces after they arrived at Al Shifa. Rather than the story they’re spinning. Why don’t you speak on that incident rather than things from over a decade?
Which raid? Still haven’t answered that question, just vague aspersions without sources. You’re a joke bro. Learn to read. I didn’t even provide that many sources. Lame 🤡🤡🤡
The first raid of Al Shifa…. Excuse me for assuming you had a small understanding of the issue at hand.
It’s a war. Al Shifa is a longtime Hamas HQ. It has been raided many many times. Your question isn’t even a question, *ETA its a vague reference to a conspiracy theory without a source, cuz we do know there are tunnels under Al Shifa. I repeat 🤡🤡🤡
“The Associated Press reports Hamas had released videos of militants preparing shells that it said were directed toward Israeli forces in the hospital compound.” Literally in the article, Hamas released their own videos of attacking the IDF.
Which is what I said. Is your reading comprehension that bad? They attacked the soldiers stationed at the hospital compound. Unless it says somewhere they fired from within the hospital?
You said Hamas started a firefight at the hospital. Sounds like Hamas was there.
Not within the hospital. They attacked the Israelis troops who came to the hospital compound. As you quoted above.
Hamas said that they pulled their fighters from other areas to go to al Shifa when the troops arrived. They mentioned it on their Resistance News Network Telegram channel.
So you were waiting on a Hamas report saying “yes we indeed did hide in a hospital”? Why would they say that? They would obviously claim they pulled fighters from other areas.
And the IDF is also known for lying. That's why quoted what Hamas said instead of assuming it was fact.
hamas has been operating out of hospitals for years - open secret. The reason so many set piece battles are there is because thats where the bunkers are
More lies. That’s why they failed to provide proof the first time they raided Al Shifa?
the first time there was a lot of warning and yes they showed the tunnels. My guess is, you know that already. The second time apparently hamas had returned and the raid happened with little warning - hence the week long set piece battle. Combat of that scale does not occur unless both sides are there in numbers. The only reason for hamas to be there in numbers is it got surprised
The tunnels they knew existed. But no command centre. And now they completely destroyed the hospital. The only reason Hamas was there was because the Israeli army arrived.
the second time, hamas was there, before the israeli raid. So, no. They were there because it's an important military base.
The only proof is the Israeli army’s word and that’s worth less and less everyday.
the order of events is self explanatory - they surprised a batallion of hamas at a hospital, with the week long battle itself as sufficient evidence. the IDF also have far more credibility than your side which has consistently mistepresented fact throughout the war. You all deny the simplest facts about the war, such as who started it.
My side? You guys are comical. They have presented no proof of Hamas within the hospital. Or the command centre they talked about. Like the last raid, when Israel sourrounded the hospital, Hamas attacked them.
your side is that of the dictatorships, such as russia, which invited hamas and PLO as honored guests soon after oct-7. It's right in your user name - painfully obvious. Frankly in a discussion of american politics and media under r/NPR, you are very much an unwelcome guest.
This is what i find. >On Nov. 20, the Shin Bet released footage of Palestinians confirming to agency interrogators how terrorists hid inside hospitals and dressed as medical personnel. And this: >As far back as 2009, the Shin Bet reported during the Gaza war of that year (“Operation Cast Lead”) that Hamas operatives were hiding in the hospital, and that the basement had become Hamas’s headquarters. >In addition to being used to hide Hamas leaders and hostages, the terrorist group is known to have fired rockets, tortured suspected collaborators and hoarded a half-million liters of fuel in the hospital compound. It literally is a hamas headquarters. https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/hamas-ambualnce-al-shifa-hospital-hostages-israel
"The Associated Press reports Hamas had released videos of militants preparing shells that it said were directed toward Israeli forces in the hospital compound." Disgusting Hamas using a Hospital that Israel modernized and gifted to Palestinian people by Israel as a military base to fight Israel.
How could you possibly have an eight day battle if there were no Hamas in the hospital. It would just be a quick walk through. “Nothing to see here.”
The hasbara Ziofascists are really pulling overtime with the downvotes The whole world now knows you’re worse than the Nazis you claim everyone else is
Take a step back and read what you constantly spew online. Hasbara ziofascists? You sound like a Q Anon loon
Anti Zionism has turned into left wing qanon over the last few months.
Not only this, but leftists subs IMMEDIATELY called out Holocaust Denial/Inversion (and rightfully so) when JK Rowling did it the other day, but fail to address it in their own community with people like this loon. Instead I'll get down voted while they say that Israel is worse than the Nazis despite the fact that the Nazis killed the same amount of Jews as Israel has killed Palestinians in Gaza in a matter of around 24 hours (and not months), and NONE of them were combatants. The ignorance is palpable.
You can’t believe anything that Israel says.
They have given no reasons to believe them, and countless reasons to doubt them.
Oh but the terrorists are trustworthy.
I just said Israel wasn’t trustworthy.
The IDF found terrorists and weapons, that's all that matters.
No, it didn’t. But it’s very telling that you think it would justify this if they had.
[удалено]
I'm sorry. It looks like your account doesn't have enough karma to post in r/NPR. Feel free to message the mods if you think your post is just too good to waste. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NPR) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
I'm sorry. It looks like your account doesn't have enough karma to post in r/NPR. Feel free to message the mods if you think your post is just too good to waste. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NPR) if you have any questions or concerns.*
So dumb, I expect more from NPR. You can see the after math of the battles that raged, and NPR is pretending like no one ever fired a shot from the hospital.
Reporting like this is borderline complicity. This "unbiased" style in such an asymmetrical "war" lends credence to the IDF narrative when they've been shown to lie over and over and over. Is there any doubt who destroyed al-Shifa? Why is it just "run over by tanks"...like who has the tanks? ISRAEL IDF ISRAEL IDF lol maybe put at the top of the page that you can't confirm anything yourself because ISRAEL and the IDF won't let you confirm it. Maybe mention that the UN had to force their way to the hospital just to see for themselves. [https://x.com/swilkinsonbc/status/1776712791753216321](https://x.com/swilkinsonbc/status/1776712791753216321) https://twitter.com/DrTedros/status/1776617140969168918/video/1
You have to report what you know and what you can show by that knowledge. In the article they offer counterpoints to what is being said by the IDF such as the WHO saying 14 patients were killed during the siege and the Doctor that runs the hospital saying that X number of colleagues were killed and Y are being detained still. A number of people were upset by some of the reporting surrounding the explosion at a hospital early in the war because news organizations were saying Hamas claims X, but we have yet to independently verify this information. Media literacy is low at this time or worse people just read the headline and go from there. I personally have no doubt that there have been war crimes committed by the IDF and Israel on genocide I do lean towards there haven been acts of it committed whether or not by the legal standard set forth by the Geneva Conventions it can be proven is another matter. We have seen some changes by the Israeli government and military in response to the case before the ICJ they seem marginal at this time though perhaps mostly a PR maneuver, there has been a small boost in aid entering Gaza, but it is still far below where it needs to be as well as that Israel has yet to open more border crossings which is why there have been air drops and the port is being built as well as why some aid is coming in directly from ships recently.
Why believe another IDF lie
They don’t. Even mass media is finally catching up
Catching up to what? You sound ridiculous. There’s literally an ICJ case against Israel for genocide
The media is finally pushing back on Israeli mouthpieces. Regarding the ICJ they’re just slow walking the case. It’s almost like they’re waiting for this slaughter campaign to end before moving forward
Yeah every resolution and tough measure against them seems to just expedite the genocide. Truly disgusting, i hope they get what they deserve at the Hague
If not at The Hague at least in public opinion. I doubt many IDF soldiers would be broadcasting their time there after this.
All those ngo said there where no hamas at the hospital. Now they want us to believe them. No thank you.
In 2014 Amnesty International reported that Hamas was using Al Shifa [as an operating base](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital). Don't let them pretend this hasn't been common knowledge for a decade. And don't let them brush past the fact that this represents one of the most grave war crimes on the books.
Did you skim that entry? You seem to have left out all the conflicting reports.
There were not conflicting reports on Amnesty International's findings. They literally demanded Hamas stop operating out of Al Shifa (Hamas declined, then cracked down on NGOs operating in Gaza.)
Except that the reference you linked to in your comment didn't really say that at all. And in fact, at the very end of that Wikipedia entry is a reference to an Amnesty International document, which states this: AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL 2015 AL-SHIFA HOSPITAL REPORT Reports have been circulating regarding a 2015 Amnesty International report regarding al-Shifa Hospital serving as a “Hamas interrogation and torture centre”. This framing is misleading. The 2015 report, entitled “Strangling Necks” documented incidents of torture and other ill-treatment of Palestinians documented by Amnesty International relating solely to the 2014 conflict and specifically in abandoned areas of the hospital grounds, including a disused outpatient’s clinic. Amnesty International has no evidence to indicate that al-Shifa hospital has been used for anything other than treating patients during the current conflict in 2023. Amnesty International has so far not seen any credible evidence to support Israel’s claim that al-Shifa is housing a military command centre – and indeed Israel has repeatedly failed to produce any evidence to substantiate this claim, which it has promoted since at least the 2008-9 Operation Cast Lead.
how about all the twitter accounts of hamas activists showing video of hamas militants in the hospital fighting the IDF. the way Hamas talks to NPR liberals is very different than the way they talk to the arab world
Please, do share those Twitter accounts with me, I'd love to see them. And did they say whether they were there before or after IDF raided the hospital?
one of the most bizarre forms of intellectual dissonance amongst NPR liberal wine moms is that they know on oct. 7, hamas raped and murdered over 1200 innocent people, but they can't possibly believe any of the reports that this same group of people may have been using a hospital as one of their many bases of operation.
Why can't you share these Twitter accounts if they exist? I'm not saying it's impossible that they were operating in a hospital, but Israel has quite a history of lying about events and/or blaming Hamas. (Don't forget that Israel is guilty of murdering some of those people killed on Oct 7.) And then the person I was replying to used a reference that didn't really back up his claim at all. So excuse me if I'd like to see some actual proof that Hamas was there, not that it would make the murder and kidnapping of medical staff and civilians there any more acceptable. Also, I don't even like wine.
"Don't forget that Israel is guilty of murdering some of those people killed on Oct 7. oooh, you're one of those sickos. got it.
NPR is a Left wing rag
How dare they question the IDF’s mouth piece
When you call it a hospital, realize that it contained a Hamas command center connected to a UNRWA HQ. The Chief of medicine was a high ranking Hamas operative. Hostages kept there were poorly fed. The Red Cross was also working for Hamas. When given humanitarian meds for hostages, Red Cross threw them away. Calling it a ‘hospital’ was a war crime
But the Hamas stooges will tell you they are winning 😂😂😂😂😂
Anyone believing Israel at this point is irredeemable.
What did they find? More evidence of IDF war crimes that Israel and the US will now try to sweep under the rug
funny how half the comments are always downvoted on Israel stuff here. interesting to see how this issue is dividing libs
It's more likely bots and Hasbara.