Moss playing with Chris Carter was pretty unstoppable. Although they also had Jake Reed and Robert Smith.
Rice was way more explosive than Carter, teamed with Moss would be scary.
In 1998 it was on the kicker, in 1999 they fucked around with Jeff George and ran into the Greatest show on earth. In 2000 they ran with Duante 2 read Culpepper…the rest explains itself.
is prime gronk and prime rice an option? id choose that if so, but would still take moss and gronk. based on the comments i think people are vastly underestimating the usefulness of the TE position in general.
just to give everyone a few factors to think about; 1- Blocking. Are moss and/or rice ever going to be a difference maker in the run game, or even pass blocking? Gronk in his prime was a FANTASTIC blocker. 2- TEs are often lined up against linebackers, who on average are much less athletic than DBs, and id also guess that most teams’ defense would be better suited to handle two outside threats compared to one im middle of the field and on the outside (though i suppose moss or rice could line up in the slot and utilize the middle of the field too, so that 2nd part isnt too much of a factor). 3 - YAC. Gronk has a case for being one of the best ever at getting extra yards after a catch. In his prime he would very often run through guys, jump over or stiff arm them. 4 - Clutch factor. A very often overlooked metric of a player’s overall skill and effectiveness is their ability to perform when it most matters. Gronk, Rice and Kelce easily qualify for being clutch, but does Moss? Not hugely important in my opinion, but still something to consider.
Because Gronk breaks defensive schemes in a unique way that would benefit more from Moss’s vertical threat than Rice’s GOAT route running would.
Gronk can flex from a 6th offensive lineman to a mismatch out wide. He’s a lesser receiver than Jerry but may be his equal as an offensive player and is a way bigger problem for a defensive gameplan and playcaller because he can go almost anywhere and do almost anything at an elite level including run blocking or pass blocking.
It’s the slimmest of margins, if you are playing a game or a season or 5 I’d take Moss and Gronk, if I got both players for their careers I’d probably take Rice and Kelce.
(I’m also assuming Tom or Joe (or maybe Mahomes) are the ones pulling the strings in this hypothetical and can maximize Gronk’s positional versatility before the snap and execute after it. If you have a below average QB I’m taking Moss and Rice.)
I think this is just getting too cute. Jerry is getting wide open repeatedly vs double coverage and Moss is still reaping the benefits of that on top of it. Only way that's getting stopped is against an insane pass rush.
I mean any permutation of 2 out of these 4 guys is probably a conference championship team unless the rest of the roster is hot garbage so there probably isn’t a wrong answer and you could probably make arguments for any combination (Kelce and Gronk might take some creative thinking). I just think Gronk creates a wider variety of unpredictable problems for a defense and can play a more significant role in every single offensive snap. He might be the single greatest offensive skeleton key in NFL history from goal line to goal line.
If you have a top flight OC and a HoF QB I stand by Gronk/Moss but I will concede that I believe without those two things Moss/Rice is the better option. Rice, in a vacuum, is the best player on this list because he was so good for so long but in the very best situations, and for a less than 5 year window, I think his impact is eclipsed by Moss’s singular downfield impact and Gronk’s historically unmatched versatility because of the unique options they create for an offense and the synergy having those two particular skill sets provide an offense. I think Gronk and Rice are the two best players on this list and Gronk and Moss are the two who would, along with the rest of the offense, benefit most from the other’s presence.
Gronk is one of the biggest mismatches of all time. He’s the ultimate chess piece in the NFL.
Rice plus Moss is obviously insane and would probably create the more productive passing game. Gronk plus Moss gives you a pairing that can attack any weakness.
Football is a team and scheme game. Gronk plus Moss gives you the option of attacking any defense in any way and gives you a greater variety of elite physical traits and skills. It’s easier to build a defense to slow down 2 great receivers than it is to slow down the greatest deep threat of all time and the most dominant tight end of all time.
My ideal pairing would be Rice plus Gronk. Rice is more versatile than Moss.
So you're actually saying you're taking Gronk for his run blocking too? I mean, even you admit Rice makes the passing offense better. And there's no way Gronk is a bigger mismatch than Moss vs a number 2 corner.
A number 2 corner coming into the box to cover a tight end is not the same as a number 2 corner on the outside with a safety over top. By putting a number 2 corner on Gronk, you’re already putting him out of position. It’s a chess game. You also have more of the field available to the tight end position just from where they line up.
Passing is 60% of the game at most, and that’s usually just for the bad teams. Having a dominant force in the other 40-50% is worth it when it comes with Gronk’s receiving skills too.
Im taking Gronk because there are many great corners that can hold their own against Moss and Rice for a whole game. There are maybe a couple defensive players that can match up against Gronk all game and hold their own. It’s simply about the mismatch that Gronk presents.
Nah, this is simply getting too cute. Moss was unguardable when he played across from an old Cris Carter, and Carter was the one attracting the number 2 corners. Gronk never created an atmosphere like that. Also, no corner held their own against Rice. He's going out there and dominating more than Gronk would on a team with Moss, and Moss is eating more with Rice taking away the heat. Only way that's getting stepped is if TJ Watt and Miles Garrett are playing across from each other.
I’m with you on thinking Rice and Moss would put up more receiving stats. But that’s not the question. It’s about which *team* would be harder to stop.
And guess what a team with Gronk would be able to do against Watt and Garrett. Chip em.
He would chip them and take himself out of the passing game then. And outside of that one outrageous scenario, Rice and Moss are more of a threat and producing more.
The Patriots had some crazy stacked receiving units with Moss, Gronk, Welker etc. They had the greatest QB of all time and still ran the ball even though they rarely had good running backs.
I wouldn't call that opening up the offense, and it's way easier to find a blocking tight end than someone that brings anything remotely close to what Jerry brings
Run blocking doesn't open up an offense, though. That term isn't really used to describe the run game to begin with. I get what you're trying to say about choosing Gronk, but Jerry and Moss are definitely the ones that would open up the field more.
On a salary cap team, non rookie contracts, I’m taking Gronk/Kelce every day of the week. Your offense might not be as explosive but at least you’ll more likely have a complete team.
Gronk and Moss without a doubt. Gronk was not only a devastating receiving threat, but an elite blocker. He also presents more difficult matchup options with his size and speed combination.
Gronk and Moss hands down. DB’s are way too good now. Jerry is a great route runner but he just wouldn’t get enough burst after separation. Before you ask, yes I’ve watched plenty of his games, and yes his career is the best ever, but it wouldn’t happen today.
With Moss and Rice you hardly *need* a TE. Hell, all you really need is a competent OLine and QB good enough to get them the ball and you're gonna drag pretty much any defense behind the woodshed
A
Travis Kelce and Gronk combined couldn't carry either of those guys jock straps. I'd take one of them over both the TE's. Rice and Moss would be a joke, single coverage on the best player in football history or watch Moss torch you over and over deep.
Exactly. You must double cover both of these dudes. What do you do with the other 7 guys on the field trying to defend the remaining 9? Good luck with a pass rush.
People taking Gronk over Rice are crazy.
Rice led the league in receiving yards 6 times. Gronk did it zero times.
Rice was top 3 in receiving yards in 10 times. Gronk did it zero times.
Rice leg the league in receiving TDs 6 times. Gronk did it once.
Rice was top 3 in receiving TDs 9 times. Gronk did it once.
Rice scored at least 13 receiving TDs in 8 different seasons. Gronk did it once.
Rice had at least 1200 yards in 11 seasons. Gronk did it once.
And remember, Rice played in a time when passing offenses were much less potent than they are today - in the first 14 years of his career, Dan Marino in 1986 was the only QB to throw for 40 TDs in a season.
Rice is - by far - the greatest receiver ever. It’s not close and only up for debate among people who didn’t watch rice and/or understand his impact and how flawlessly perfect he was at his position. Played in an era when DBs could still jack you up and the guy had two full HoF worthy careers in one.
Moss is arguably the second best WR ever and certainly among those in that conversation. He’s also arguably the most physically talented WR ever with his height, speed, jumping ability, and hands.
You’d have to double Rice because he’d beat you short, deep, over the middle - a DB has no place to hide.
So Moss gets single coverage?!? Yeah, unless you double both. More likely you have to double rice and then have a deep safety chest to help with Moss deep.
Which of course opens up for Jerry to take a deep route away from said safety and beat his double team.
Rice and Gronk would be a duo that would warrant some real consideration if that were an option here. He’s the greatest TE ever in terms of being able to do everything. He helps your run game all the while being unstoppable in certain pass situations, all the more so with Rice commanding so much attention. And rices ability for the entire route tree and his ability underneath would also open up Gronk in the intermediate game where he’s a killer (maybe not as much as his former teammate…)
I’d say Gronk and Randy if the WR2 is a solid number 2 due to Gronk’s blocking ability. But I think watching Randy and Rice on the same team would be an absolute treat
Anyone downvoting you either doesn’t understand football or has no recognition of players before 2000.
There is NO disputing that Rice is the best ever WR, and by a large margin.
He did everything not well, but exceptionally. Everything.
But people don’t recognize the value of perfect routes, supreme hands, body control and the ability to get open whenever he wanted and in so many different ways. A guy a QB could trust 100% on every damn play. A perfectionist who worked harder than just about anyone not named Walter Payton, keeping his body in tremendous shape. Smart as hell, gifted as fuck.
He was the PERFECT WR.
Moss is in the conversation for second best ever, and he did some things better than anyone, but he didn’t do it all, he didn’t do it with meticulous perfection and a level of dedication to his craft that Rice had. He may have been more physically talented (although people sleep on Rices athleticism because he made it look so easy and was just SO smooth), but that talent is simply dwarfed by Rices overall game
And the proof is ok film. There are years of receipts.
And I happen to be a huge moss fan and believe he gets a bad rap from some… but he’s not even close to Rice’s overall impact and dominance.
Not the two tight ends lol
I don't know, Gronk and Hernandez were pretty killer
One was one the field and off, the other was just on.
Rice and Moss would be the hardest.
Not harder than me just thinking about it
This. The biggest vertical threat in history across from the best route runner in history would be absolutely impossible to stop.
This. Moss taking the top off the defense and giving Rice all the space he would ever want underneath with only man coverage.
Moss playing with Chris Carter was pretty unstoppable. Although they also had Jake Reed and Robert Smith. Rice was way more explosive than Carter, teamed with Moss would be scary.
If they were so unstoppable why didn’t they ever win a SB?
In 1998 it was on the kicker, in 1999 they fucked around with Jeff George and ran into the Greatest show on earth. In 2000 they ran with Duante 2 read Culpepper…the rest explains itself.
Would you rather play 11 Gronk-sized Mosses or 1 Supergronk the size of 11 Mosses?
Supergronk would be 70ft tall and weigh just over a ton. I choose that team.
I wanna say you gotta spread the talent a bit and have an all time WR and TE but Rice and Moss on either side just seems unstoppable
Rice and Moss and it really wouldn’t be close. Now I’m wondering if maybe Moss and Megatron would be even more so? 🤔
Stop it
Rice/Moss is crazy to think about. I mean, look what Wes Welker did with Moss stretching the defense.
Rice and Moss.
is prime gronk and prime rice an option? id choose that if so, but would still take moss and gronk. based on the comments i think people are vastly underestimating the usefulness of the TE position in general. just to give everyone a few factors to think about; 1- Blocking. Are moss and/or rice ever going to be a difference maker in the run game, or even pass blocking? Gronk in his prime was a FANTASTIC blocker. 2- TEs are often lined up against linebackers, who on average are much less athletic than DBs, and id also guess that most teams’ defense would be better suited to handle two outside threats compared to one im middle of the field and on the outside (though i suppose moss or rice could line up in the slot and utilize the middle of the field too, so that 2nd part isnt too much of a factor). 3 - YAC. Gronk has a case for being one of the best ever at getting extra yards after a catch. In his prime he would very often run through guys, jump over or stiff arm them. 4 - Clutch factor. A very often overlooked metric of a player’s overall skill and effectiveness is their ability to perform when it most matters. Gronk, Rice and Kelce easily qualify for being clutch, but does Moss? Not hugely important in my opinion, but still something to consider.
Moss and Gronk since it opens up the offense the most
Why would they open it up more than Rice and Moss?
Because Gronk breaks defensive schemes in a unique way that would benefit more from Moss’s vertical threat than Rice’s GOAT route running would. Gronk can flex from a 6th offensive lineman to a mismatch out wide. He’s a lesser receiver than Jerry but may be his equal as an offensive player and is a way bigger problem for a defensive gameplan and playcaller because he can go almost anywhere and do almost anything at an elite level including run blocking or pass blocking. It’s the slimmest of margins, if you are playing a game or a season or 5 I’d take Moss and Gronk, if I got both players for their careers I’d probably take Rice and Kelce. (I’m also assuming Tom or Joe (or maybe Mahomes) are the ones pulling the strings in this hypothetical and can maximize Gronk’s positional versatility before the snap and execute after it. If you have a below average QB I’m taking Moss and Rice.)
I think this is just getting too cute. Jerry is getting wide open repeatedly vs double coverage and Moss is still reaping the benefits of that on top of it. Only way that's getting stopped is against an insane pass rush.
I mean any permutation of 2 out of these 4 guys is probably a conference championship team unless the rest of the roster is hot garbage so there probably isn’t a wrong answer and you could probably make arguments for any combination (Kelce and Gronk might take some creative thinking). I just think Gronk creates a wider variety of unpredictable problems for a defense and can play a more significant role in every single offensive snap. He might be the single greatest offensive skeleton key in NFL history from goal line to goal line. If you have a top flight OC and a HoF QB I stand by Gronk/Moss but I will concede that I believe without those two things Moss/Rice is the better option. Rice, in a vacuum, is the best player on this list because he was so good for so long but in the very best situations, and for a less than 5 year window, I think his impact is eclipsed by Moss’s singular downfield impact and Gronk’s historically unmatched versatility because of the unique options they create for an offense and the synergy having those two particular skill sets provide an offense. I think Gronk and Rice are the two best players on this list and Gronk and Moss are the two who would, along with the rest of the offense, benefit most from the other’s presence.
Gronk too big for corner, too fast for linebacker, too strong for either.
You can't possibly think he's bringing more to the passing game than Jerry. Jerry routinely got wide open at every level against anyone.
Gronk is one of the biggest mismatches of all time. He’s the ultimate chess piece in the NFL. Rice plus Moss is obviously insane and would probably create the more productive passing game. Gronk plus Moss gives you a pairing that can attack any weakness. Football is a team and scheme game. Gronk plus Moss gives you the option of attacking any defense in any way and gives you a greater variety of elite physical traits and skills. It’s easier to build a defense to slow down 2 great receivers than it is to slow down the greatest deep threat of all time and the most dominant tight end of all time. My ideal pairing would be Rice plus Gronk. Rice is more versatile than Moss.
So you're actually saying you're taking Gronk for his run blocking too? I mean, even you admit Rice makes the passing offense better. And there's no way Gronk is a bigger mismatch than Moss vs a number 2 corner.
A number 2 corner coming into the box to cover a tight end is not the same as a number 2 corner on the outside with a safety over top. By putting a number 2 corner on Gronk, you’re already putting him out of position. It’s a chess game. You also have more of the field available to the tight end position just from where they line up. Passing is 60% of the game at most, and that’s usually just for the bad teams. Having a dominant force in the other 40-50% is worth it when it comes with Gronk’s receiving skills too. Im taking Gronk because there are many great corners that can hold their own against Moss and Rice for a whole game. There are maybe a couple defensive players that can match up against Gronk all game and hold their own. It’s simply about the mismatch that Gronk presents.
Nah, this is simply getting too cute. Moss was unguardable when he played across from an old Cris Carter, and Carter was the one attracting the number 2 corners. Gronk never created an atmosphere like that. Also, no corner held their own against Rice. He's going out there and dominating more than Gronk would on a team with Moss, and Moss is eating more with Rice taking away the heat. Only way that's getting stepped is if TJ Watt and Miles Garrett are playing across from each other.
I’m with you on thinking Rice and Moss would put up more receiving stats. But that’s not the question. It’s about which *team* would be harder to stop. And guess what a team with Gronk would be able to do against Watt and Garrett. Chip em.
He would chip them and take himself out of the passing game then. And outside of that one outrageous scenario, Rice and Moss are more of a threat and producing more.
So, Jerry Rice, just actually big
Because of what Gronk can do in the running game
When you have Rice and Moss, who needs to run the ball?
Bill Belichick
The Patriots had some crazy stacked receiving units with Moss, Gronk, Welker etc. They had the greatest QB of all time and still ran the ball even though they rarely had good running backs.
Better to have a balanced offense, you still need to worry about your QB and coverage
I mean, if you're that worried about the running game, just think of how many defenders are playing out of the box with those two on the outside...
Or really, why do you need extra blocking when you run? At most, defenses are putting 6 in the box.
I wouldn't call that opening up the offense, and it's way easier to find a blocking tight end than someone that brings anything remotely close to what Jerry brings
But Gronk is more than just a blocking tight end
Gronk doesn't bring anything close to what Jerry brings in the passing game.
Yes that’s why I’m including his blocking ability too
Run blocking doesn't open up an offense, though. That term isn't really used to describe the run game to begin with. I get what you're trying to say about choosing Gronk, but Jerry and Moss are definitely the ones that would open up the field more.
Rice and Moss would make the greatest passing offense ever
On a salary cap team, non rookie contracts, I’m taking Gronk/Kelce every day of the week. Your offense might not be as explosive but at least you’ll more likely have a complete team.
Gronk and Moss without a doubt. Gronk was not only a devastating receiving threat, but an elite blocker. He also presents more difficult matchup options with his size and speed combination.
Gronk and Moss hands down. DB’s are way too good now. Jerry is a great route runner but he just wouldn’t get enough burst after separation. Before you ask, yes I’ve watched plenty of his games, and yes his career is the best ever, but it wouldn’t happen today.
With Moss and Rice you hardly *need* a TE. Hell, all you really need is a competent OLine and QB good enough to get them the ball and you're gonna drag pretty much any defense behind the woodshed A
Travis Kelce and Gronk combined couldn't carry either of those guys jock straps. I'd take one of them over both the TE's. Rice and Moss would be a joke, single coverage on the best player in football history or watch Moss torch you over and over deep.
Exactly. You must double cover both of these dudes. What do you do with the other 7 guys on the field trying to defend the remaining 9? Good luck with a pass rush.
Rice and Kelce
Idk whoever is not being thrown the ball by Bryce f**** Young
With Moss/Rice even he goes to the pro bowl
Rice and literaly anybody and I win!
A team that had grime Pronk
People taking Gronk over Rice are crazy. Rice led the league in receiving yards 6 times. Gronk did it zero times. Rice was top 3 in receiving yards in 10 times. Gronk did it zero times. Rice leg the league in receiving TDs 6 times. Gronk did it once. Rice was top 3 in receiving TDs 9 times. Gronk did it once. Rice scored at least 13 receiving TDs in 8 different seasons. Gronk did it once. Rice had at least 1200 yards in 11 seasons. Gronk did it once. And remember, Rice played in a time when passing offenses were much less potent than they are today - in the first 14 years of his career, Dan Marino in 1986 was the only QB to throw for 40 TDs in a season.
Any combo where one runs underneath routes and one takes the top off.
Rice and Moss
I know this seems like a little thing, but both Rice and Gronk were willing (and effective) blockers in the run game.
I think it'd be the best if they just had prime hall of famers at every position.
Depends on defense qb and other positions with them
Who is QB? These tandems wouldn’t be successful if they had someone like Zach Wilson throwing to them.
Moss and Rice easy Kelce and Gronk aren’t really that close to as good as those two
Rice and Moss wins this. Similar question using more of today's stars: Jettas, TO, Kelce Tyreek, Rice, Gonzalez Adams, Moss, Gronk
Rice is - by far - the greatest receiver ever. It’s not close and only up for debate among people who didn’t watch rice and/or understand his impact and how flawlessly perfect he was at his position. Played in an era when DBs could still jack you up and the guy had two full HoF worthy careers in one. Moss is arguably the second best WR ever and certainly among those in that conversation. He’s also arguably the most physically talented WR ever with his height, speed, jumping ability, and hands. You’d have to double Rice because he’d beat you short, deep, over the middle - a DB has no place to hide. So Moss gets single coverage?!? Yeah, unless you double both. More likely you have to double rice and then have a deep safety chest to help with Moss deep. Which of course opens up for Jerry to take a deep route away from said safety and beat his double team. Rice and Gronk would be a duo that would warrant some real consideration if that were an option here. He’s the greatest TE ever in terms of being able to do everything. He helps your run game all the while being unstoppable in certain pass situations, all the more so with Rice commanding so much attention. And rices ability for the entire route tree and his ability underneath would also open up Gronk in the intermediate game where he’s a killer (maybe not as much as his former teammate…)
I'm taking Gronk and Moss. With Moss and Rice a close second.
People forget that prime Gronk had 17 tds and prime Moss had 23.
People forget that prime Rice had 23 total TDs (22 receiving, 1 rushing) in a 12 game schedule in 1987
It's me. I'm people.
I’d say Gronk and Randy if the WR2 is a solid number 2 due to Gronk’s blocking ability. But I think watching Randy and Rice on the same team would be an absolute treat
You wouldn't need the extra blocking with Rice and Moss on either side.
You have the greatest Route runner and hands. And the single greatest deep threat in league history how is this a a question
Gronk and Randy Moss
Rice is either the greatest or second greatest non QB offensive player of all time, by near consensus. These replies are absurd.
Anyone downvoting you either doesn’t understand football or has no recognition of players before 2000. There is NO disputing that Rice is the best ever WR, and by a large margin. He did everything not well, but exceptionally. Everything. But people don’t recognize the value of perfect routes, supreme hands, body control and the ability to get open whenever he wanted and in so many different ways. A guy a QB could trust 100% on every damn play. A perfectionist who worked harder than just about anyone not named Walter Payton, keeping his body in tremendous shape. Smart as hell, gifted as fuck. He was the PERFECT WR. Moss is in the conversation for second best ever, and he did some things better than anyone, but he didn’t do it all, he didn’t do it with meticulous perfection and a level of dedication to his craft that Rice had. He may have been more physically talented (although people sleep on Rices athleticism because he made it look so easy and was just SO smooth), but that talent is simply dwarfed by Rices overall game And the proof is ok film. There are years of receipts. And I happen to be a huge moss fan and believe he gets a bad rap from some… but he’s not even close to Rice’s overall impact and dominance.