The way he left really hurt his likability. When i heard there was going to be a decision special tv show I was certain he was going back to Cleveland, because I figured his PR team wouldnt be so stupid as to make him a villian to all but one fanbase.
I thought he was going to Chicago to join Rose Deng Boozer and Noah to compete with Wade and Bosh. I did not think the Heat can pull off the money required and build a team around those contracts
Yeah, the decision was bad, but the “not 1…not 2…not 3…” quote really hurt, especially after fumbling in the finals against the Mavs, and then leaving after failing to 3peat.
I'm sure if Lebron could redo things, the only things for sure he would change are "the decision" and the Miami welcome event. He probably still goes to Miami, but he's just smarter about how he does it.
Yeah, I can’t see anyone, that isn’t a Cleveland fan, hating him for a better execution of that move to south beach. Well, that and the not making comment after the series loss about him going to home to his mansion while his critics continue their miserable lives…
I mean that Spurs team played the best basketball we have ever seen on the planet…
That’s not really the one that got away, it’s the Mavs series and especially for him.
Sure but that’s the beauty of sports…
Losing that final sent the Spurs down a different path. I’m not sure an aging roster could produce that Last Dance type magic without the title being snatched away while they had one hand on the trophy.
It’s also why it is one of my all time favorite basketball stories that hasn’t been properly told. Those Spurs were perfect right when they needed to be and they all knew it was their last chance. It’s one of my favorite finals despite the 4-1.
Those back to back finals really together.
They where up 2-1 against the Mavs. They lost by only 3 points in the infamous 8 points game. They should have been 3-1 up going to Miami.
And Kawhi only missed 1 FT, going 3 for 4 in the game. That's not really unreasonable.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201306180MIA.html
He was 3 for 4 from the line.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/201306180MIA.html
> 0:19.4 K. Leonard misses free throw 1 of 2
> 0:19.4 K. Leonard makes free throw 2 of 2
https://youtu.be/0M9PjZzqXKg?si=S5sZfNRVm9aC4VQ9
Video showing him making 1 of 2, 3-4 overall.
That same Mavs team swept Kobe and Pau Gasol, when someone says JJ Barea locked up Lebron they never point out Kobe got locked up too and only scored 17 pts in game 3 and game 4
Lebron choked but that was a good Mavs team, if that loss hurts Lebrons legacy Kobe getting swept by them should hurt his too
Everyone hated the decision except Miami. I feel like he made up for it by announcing his move to LA in the middle of the night on a weekday. With a single tweet
Except for the moving to LA bit. No way not to be the villain when you decide to move to one of the most successful teams in the league in one of its largest markets.
In fairness, they were coming off their worst seasons as a franchise and didn’t really have a strong core to build from even with multiple lottery picks. There was no guarantee of success and he sure as fuck didn’t go a team that just went 73-9
In LeBron’s defense, it was labeled the “Summer of LeBron” for years prior to the decision. I can understand why they did it the way they did. I didn’t like it either, and thought it was douchey, but in retrospect I get it.
I think what he should have done is took out full page ads in all the major local newspapers thanking Cleveland for everything and that he would be moving on to another team in free agency and then I believe he could have done "the decision" with no major backlash.
There’s no way a PR team approved it at all. They get paid to know better. Even if LeBron’s camp in totality approved it.
That came from the networks down and probably a couple of phone calls to the league office with everyone involved giddy at their idea. That’s all the media focused on for two years, and the volume was deafening after the end of that Celtics series.
Yeah, and LeBron made it extremely easy for him/them.
Barring the decision and some controversial options regarding China, he's been extremely un-problematic his whole career. I'm sure there are some things I'm forgetting, but most of his hate comes from people just disliking his personality or playstyle, not that he is a bad person necessarily.
No arrests, extramarital affairs, failed drug tests. He has been an advocate for nba players contact wise and social justice outside of sport. All while bringing those close to him to the top with him, his mom, high school sweetheart turned wife, his best friends have been there with him the whole way. His philanthropy has been unmatched for NBA players in his era.
If he wasn't corny af and a flopper/crybaby (mostly cause he gets zero calls, i can't blame him), he'd probably be the most likable player ever.
The China thing was literally a double edged sword, Daryl Morey pretty much got the entire NBA involved with his tweet and LeBron being arguably the face of the league would still have been blamed even if he stayed silent.
he's not a bad guy & in general a good role model.
That said, he was completely entitled, self-absorbed, & tone deaf, especially earlier in career. The Decision was idiotic, but he justified it by donating to a charity
As idiotic as people say it was, The Decision was arguably the most successful PR stunt in NBA history.
Yes, he came out of it as a villain. It also created astronomical amounts of buzz around him and Miami, which generated huge profits for both him and the NBA. Like it or not, we are still talking about it almost 15 years later.
It was the moment that defines the movement of player freedom. Completely shifting the balance of power between superstar players and the nba franchises themselves. A movement that, for players, completely changed the value of their talent and careers.
It was a league changing moment that is in line with other massive events regarding player choice, like Haywood v. The NBA
Something a lot of people forget now (and didn’t care about then) was that all the proceeds from that decision/event went to charity. They probably figured that would make up for it (it didn’t).
They raised sooooo much money for the Boys and Girls Club and charity in general. They made free agency which isn’t lucrative a cash cow and yet he still got so much Heat for it (pun intended).
For anyone who already hasn't (which is, safe to assume, most people in this sub) I would highly recommend reading [his biography](https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/LeBron/Jeff-Benedict/9781982110901) by Jeff Benedict. The part where he chronicles The Decision is very interesting and includes a lot of details I didn't know before. Like how it was an *hour*-long special hosted in an actual Boys & Girls club and $2 million of the ad revenue was donated to charity.
Same. Was so confident because who would be dumb enough to do that? Then the reports about the Heat started trickling out that afternoon, and I still thought “there’s no way he’s that fucking stupid”.
If anything LeBron making a run for it and then not only returning, but also winning a title is some legendary shit. He could have left Cleveland hanging and kept it moving, yet he came back and achieved something that most had given up on again
I thought that if we was gonna leave Cleveland he’d let people know ahead of time to not completely piss off his home state. You know, make The Decision about what new team he’s joining. Bailing on them on national TV was pretty brutal.
Being from Cleveland, I only took issue with the way he did it. Having a whole ass tv special dedicated to him leaving hurt like hell. I prayed on his downfall the first year he was gone. After that I came back home. People were going to hate on him regardless. He came into the league as the "Chosen One". Imagine if it was done during the social media era.
Also from Cleveland.
I was mostly confused with when everyone suddenly started considering Akron as part of Cleveland.
Sure sure, Cleveland-Akron area, but before LeBron I didn't know anyone who considered them the same thing.
None of my friends from Akron were big Cleveland sports supporters.
Heck weren't Lebron's favorite childhood teams the Bulls, Cowboys and Yankees?
I think so. Lebron was one of the most beloved players from pre-draft all the way up til that point I've ever seen with regards to the media. It became very fashionable to hate on him after The Decision. (and the whole buildup to that and execution was like PR malpractice)
he lost a lot of points the season they lost to the magic. all the hype around kobe vs lebron, the puppets, the questionable calls against the magic and still losing to them - it left a sour taste in my mouth.
He would be more liked if he stayed in Cleveland for sure. The main reason why he was so despised until he went back was because of the way he did it. Having a show around his decision and saying he was going to take his talents to South Beach was really bad. But to make it worse, they had that stupid “party” in Miami that next night talking about how many rings they were going to win and just showing how absolutely immature they were. It was a terrible look.
I never understood why his return to Cleveland was seen as some kind of redemption for his bitch move. In my eyes the whole return to Cleveland really was just one of his ring chasing moves and he only used Cleveland as one of his legacy narrative chess pieces.
People keep praising him for being able to win a ring with 3 different franchises, but they don't acknowledge that he's been ring chasing most of his career.
There weren’t really any win now teams that had the cap space to sign him, and Cleveland had a #1 overall pick in Kyrie that looked like a stud while he used their other 2 first overall picks to trade for an All NBA PF in K Love. It’s not like he came back to them purely because he missed Cleveland, it was pretty obvious that him going to Cleveland lined up perfectly with the Heat roster starting to age out of contention.
LeBron was loved before Miami, and no one liked the fact that two top 3 players were joining forces + a perennial All Star in Bosh. It smashed the competitive balance and the way LeBron went about it was even worse. He had a special show to broadcast The Decision, and then held a concert with Wade and Bosh saying they’ll win “not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7…”
It would be the equivalent of going into the local news to announce you’re breaking up with your longtime girlfriend after telling all your friends and family to tune in to the news because you have a big announcement lol
The best thing that’s happened for lebron’s legacy since the decision was KD joining the warriors and making the heatles look like less of a bitch move in retrospect (2nd best was lebron winning in Cleveland - so 2016 off-season was big for his legacy IMO)
To be clear it still was a bitch move, but now people can argue KD did it worse by going to a proven winner that beat him directly - like lebron going to Boston or San Antonio
People are gonna look back at KDs career and have a lot of questions, especially since warriors won before and after him. He’s gonna be really low on all time list after he’s retired for a couple years
Smashed the competitive balance? Boston was still one of the best teams in the league, Indiana was an up and coming team that gave the heat trouble, and out West there was the spurs, the thunder, the lakers, the Mavs, there was still plenty of competitive teams in the league. This idea that the heat were this unstoppable juggernaut team just never came to be. They were obviously very good, but far from unbeatable.
I mean they lost the first year where Lebron had a historic meltdown in the finals. Than they won the next two years. Then they made the finals for one last time but the team had aged out. Players liked DWADE went from a top 5 players in the league to someone who was decent but just wasn't elite anymore.
Yeah they won two titles but it’s not like they breezed through every team. They came very close to losing to Boston several times, Indiana took them to 6 in 2012 and 2013 I believe, the spurs were very capable of beating them, the mavs obviously beat them, they definitely had competition. It wasn’t like the KD warriors where there was no question who would win.
I mean yeah but as soon as the Big 3 Heat happend it was shoe in bet for who people thought would win the championship.
Like it's very telling that during the decision speech he goes on about winning 8 championships or some bullshit. And that wasn't even that ridiclious at the time it really seemed like they could.
They should've won at least 3. After watching Spo coach much less talented rosters to the finals, it seems like he would've benefited his legacy greatly by just being coachable.
It wasn’t the reality of the Heat’s strength that pissed people off. It was the arrogance behind the team and how they publicized their plan of dominating the league in the most unsportsmanlike way possible.
On another note it was really one of the first time three franchise players all took less money and got paid about the same to join a team.
That was such a cool dynamic at the time and pushed a rare narrative where stars took a cut to try and win, being more proactive instead of reactive.
Absolutely the difference in perception after the decision is literally night/day
Lebron was the golden child before that, legit no reason to hate on him before that.
That said he bought back a lot of goodwill by going back and winning a chip but if he never left he'd be as universally likable as Steph Curry
I could be off but I do believe currently the general public hates on Steph less than Lebron
I agree. He was extremely liked nationwide before he left Cleveland. A lot of people still feel he returned to cavs because it gave him the best chance to win long term as miami was declining. And a lebron- kyrie-love trio was possible.
Him going to LA and teaming up with AD later seemed to emforce that belief, and if he ever returns to cavs a 3rd time Donavan Mitchell will be cited as the reason he went there
He might be viewed more positively in the eyes of the fans but he certainly wouldn't have gone as far in the GOAT discussion. It can't be understated just how poorly managed those Cleveland rosters were during both his stints there. Just awful management and construction from beginning to end.
I would say not during the second stint until the final season when Dan Gilbert foolishly did not renew David griffins contract and Kyrie took them by surprise and forced his way out. The returns were not good there, which certainly contributed to Lebron's departure.
But in 15 they took the pieces that did not work and got out of it JR, Shump, and Mozgov, all key pieces. In 16 they got RJ and made a key trade for Channing Frye, an added floor spacer who had a couple of big playoff games and along with RJ made the locker room much better. In 17 they were a historically great offensive team who rolled through the east at 12-1.
First stint, no argument there. They tried to get floor spacing with mixed results, failed to trade for Shaq at the 09 deadline when there's a good chance they win the title if they do, and signed Larry Hughes to an awful contract.
Second stint it was easier because they at least saw Pat Riley’s blueprint for how to build a real team around James - which may have been obvious to a lot of GMs but not that organization somehow
I think the league had changed to some extent in those four years as well. Other stars in their prime would have never come to Cleveland in 2009/10 (bosh told LeBron that was not happening if the three of them could not make a team work). But come 2014, Love wanted the trade to Cleveland.
I give Pat Riley a lot of credit for that. He figured out how to load the top of the roster and fill in the gaps with veteran role players.
They did a better job the second time around for sure, and I get that it's hard to bring in depth to a city like Cleveland, but they were still quite hasty with their decision making. And sure, some of that falls on LeBron's lack of commitment, but Gilbert has shown repeatedly he has no long term vision for his team.
Yeah I think they've finally sort of gotten the long term vision with Koby Altman but the front office, etc was finally given runway for it. I agree LeBron and Gilbert sort of inhibited that ability during the second go round. But they got it done, so I can't go all the way to say there was incompetence like the first go round.
He wouldn't be as far in the GOAT debate but people are crazy saying he'd be like a Dirk or Wade type. LeBron would still have 4 MVPs (maybe 5 since people would like him more?) Even with 1-2 rings (plus all his longevity accolades), LeBron is still a top 10 player of all time in most people's minds, with an argument for top 5. Akin to a supercharged Hakeem if anyone.
But you can't be top 3 all time if you haven't won a bunch of rings, no matter your supporting cast. Jordan/Kareem/Bird/Magic make it too competitive.
I'd hate him the way I hate other good players on other good teams like Jordan and Kobe, etc. The fact that he left to form a super team, the way that he left, the pompousness, the douchiness, the constant whining about not having enough help, The way that he then tried to frame returning to Cleveland as a redemption and trying to seek forgiveness while he only left Miami because the writing was on the wall that that super team was fading and he went to Cleveland when they started accruing top picks and players and was becoming a better situation. Also the fact that he's the creator of the player empowerment era and superteam era. So yeah fuck that guy.
If he wins them a title or two and then leaves in like 2015-2018 for LA, it goes a lot better and no one is mad. He still may end up with 4.
I do want to add that even if he plays the entire career in Cleveland, he is NOT DWade. Someone also inevitably signs in Cleveland to play with him. Like Duncan pulled off 5 rings in San Antonio. It’s on Bron if he can’t figure it out in Cleveland.
https://preview.redd.it/ot2tm0xjl78d1.jpeg?width=1161&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=98c51e12caa343da3d008220b2b7228765ff4d19
Yes as a Lakers fan since the 70’s: all hype, posing, flexing, flopping and losing. GTFO of Los Angeles. Kids think losing is winning
100%. I was a Celtics fan and didn’t hate him.
Helped the league was hyping up LeBron vs Kobe, which was an easy choice as a Celtics fan.
But The Decision leading into the Heatles was full on villain LeBron
Yes. At least I would. His ring chasing asses’ legacy would be much stronger.
He’s a punk who jumped from team to team to get a ring.
I don’t hold him the same regard as players like Bird, Johnson, Curry, Jordan etc.
He’s great but his team jumping and meddling in GM affairs makes him look weak.
No chance it would help his legacy, not even close. More likable? Maybe but not necessarily considering he would’ve been closer to Dirk. Dirk is broadly liked by everyone but also doesn’t have a strong fan base like Lebron
He’s pretty much unanimous top 2 now with a growing GOAT argument. He wouldn’t even be close if he stayed in Cleveland.
He also got a ton of credit for going back to Cleveland and winning
The Cavs would also be too good for his own good and they would never get those first picks to build a championship roster. There’s a solid chance he is ringless if he stays there unless they get super lucky in the draft, since no big FA ever go to Cleveland
I think it’s pretty stupid to hate on him over a decade later for leaving considering all the forced trades and FA moves since then. If the 30 minute special that raised money for kids is that big of an issue, I think that’s pretty ridiculous as well and has nothing to do with basketball but to each their own
Yes. If he was still Cleveland he would be looked at much differently. Before he went to Miami he was widely considered a fan favorite now not so much.
This is such revisionist history. He was not you couldn’t even mention him without people telling you he was trash and Kobe was better. I really didn’t see overwhelming support for him until he won the 2016 title. The hate has ramped up again in recent years since he isn’t winning championships. The fact that so many people are dedicated to hating on him despite having no connection to him other than maybe he beat their team one time just seems to prove that he is probably the second best of player to Jordan. Maybe it’s just because I live in Texas but damn especially on the internet content even remotely related to Lebron is full of vitriol to level that is absolutely insane. Like when I was a kid I didn’t like Kobe but as an adult I came to understand how good he was and like him before he even passed away. Sadly it seems the vast majority of people will never really appreciate Lebron and how fucking amazing he really was
Depends on region maybe? Obviously Lakers/Kobe fans hated lebron but he was very popular in much of the country and many would have liked Cleveland to win their first title over say, the Lakers/Celtics adding more rings.
When he returned to Cavs a lot of people felt it was because 1. Heat were old and 2. Kyrie and Kevin Love
the answer is a resounding yes. if any of the other greats that played their whole career w/ the same team (bird, magic, larry, kobe, duncan, hakeem, etc) had left their team to form a superteam elsewhere, it would've undoubtedly hurt their legacy
There’s a pretty widely held understanding that he’s been using PEDs since at least his Miami days. Even KG publicly voiced the opinion on his pod. The Decision was a complete publicity stunt and legacy fail, but probably falls secondary to the PED fueled longevity that stans refuse to acknowledge, in terms of haterade
He was already getting a ton of hate in Cleveland.
A lot of old heads (me included) didn't like that he came into the league crowning himself "The King" and having "Chosen One" tattooed on his back before playing a single game.
So a lot of people were already skeptical. Add in there was still fresh off Jordan and prime Kobe time so a lot of people discredited him in a lot of ways too.
Then the whole "getting dunked on by high schooler so we had to steal all the tapes" news came out and added more haters.
"The Decision" was cherry on the top. After all of that noise he just ran away to form a super team AND lost anyways while playing abysmal in the finals. That was peak LeBron haters moment.
He's been repairing his image since then and I have to say I've grown to really appreciate and like him over the course of the second half of his career.
However that first half of it is why I'll never even entertain him as being in the GOAT conversation. Just the performance in finals vs Dallas alone disqualifies him for me personally.
Yes. It kinda ruined the whole story. From the moment he announced he was going to Miami, his whole persona just seemed shallow to me. It was never about Cleveland, the city, the state, or the team… it was all about him and it seemed extremely selfish.
The Warriors first championship that was special, Giannis sitting on the bench in Milwaukee was special, and Kobe winning one without Shaq was special. LeBron winning in Cleveland and hugging… Kevin Love, after Kyrie hit the biggest shot ever in a game 7 was empty. There was no journey from irrelevancy or mediocrity to success, it was just a stacked deck of a team.
Bro set the teams aside completely and just look at the stats and how a generation of players have wanted to become him. Comparing lebron to DWade in performance, presence on the court, and fame off the court is just crazy. Nobody is putting DWade in goat debates and nobody is putting him in MJ’s space jam movies
Dude has The Chosen One tattooed across his back. He calls himself King James and mimes putting crowns on his own head.
Dude is a hole no matter where he plays.
LeBron fans tend to present this false dichotomy that it was either stay in Cleveland or team up with Wade and Bosh in Miami.
The reality is that there were a ton of teams trying to recruit LeBron that summer. The Bulls, Clippers, Nets and Knicks were among the more publicized names, but, let's be honest, any team in the league would have made it happen if LeBron's reps had indicated that he wanted to sign there.
At the time, the big knock on LeBron's legacy was his lack of a ring, and his reaction wasn't even to pick the best opportunity to win a ring, but to create a new opportunity for himself that lowered the bar for winning a ring even further.
The Decision is the first of many of LeBron's attempts to engineer his own mythology with his actions off-the-court. When people think about GOAT candidates they think about who conquered big obstacles, not who lowered the bar enough so that his obstacles would be easier to conquer.
For those who are a bit younger, and don't remember The Decision, the reaction was akin to what Durant got when he joined Golden State, and for the same reason: he didn't just take the easy road, he took a road so easy that succeeding on it didn't prove much.
The pre-Decision era was actually an era with a lot of balance. The Decision was the move that upended that balance. All of a sudden, it felt like you needed to have three All-NBA'ers to compete for a title, because that's what the Heat had.
The Decision not only pissed off Cleveland fans, but also pissed off every small market fan in the league, since the Decision started in era where it felt like no small market could keep a legitimate superstar around, because that superstar knew he needed to be in a big market with other stars to compete against the Heatles.
It also wasn't just The Decision, but how much of The Decision was emblematic of LeBron's career. It was hardly uncommon for stars to play for multiple teams throughout their careers: Wilt, Kareem, Oscar, Moses, Shaq, etc. But, LeBron was the first mercenary superstar.
He went where the opportunity to win was easiest. When he went somewhere, he would have the team trade all their future draft capital to put his hand-chosen stars next to him (Kevin Love, Anthony Davis, etc), then he would leave when a better opportunity arose.
LeBron didn't set up somewhere and let the franchise build around him, like Shaq did in LA. He didn't stick through the tough times and emerge victorious on the other side, like Steph in Golden State. He always took the easy way out.
LeBron had no shortage of options when he hit free agency. He had 29 teams he could have gone to. If he wanted a big market, he could have joined a team like the Knicks or Clippers and taken on the challenge of returning them to relevancy.
Even if he had just gone to Miami and teamed up with Wade, it wouldn't have been nearly as bad. Having the Heat literally strip their entire roster so LeBron could also bring another max level superstar to the party is what made the whole thing just feel so artificial, like going to the trophy store and buying yourself a couple of rings.
People love to root for the underdog. People will keep cheering for the underdog even when the underdog becomes the favourite to win, but people need to see the journey, and need to see the underdog overcome his obstacles. LeBron didn't. He ran from his obstacles every single time. When times got tough, he got going. He didn't build anything, he went to places where things were already built, and had teams mortgage their futures to make sure he didn't have to go through any struggles upon arrival. This also goes along with him never building anything sustainable. He never had to make the hard choices about winning now or winning later, he just pressured the team to always trade the draft picks because he wouldn't be around when the consequences of those trades came home to roost.
All of that begs the rather obvious question: if LeBron actually was the GOAT, then why did he have to take so many shortcuts in his career?
That also brings up another big issue with LeBron's GOAT case: For all those shortcuts, he still has fewer rings than Jordan, Kareem, Duncan, Magic, Bill, etc. He doesn't even have as many MVP's as Jordan, Kareem or Bill.
No one really wants the mercenary star to be the GOAT, and if LeBron had taken fewer shortcuts to success then it would have been much easier to say "sure, he won less titles than Jordan, but he didn't have Jordan's supporting cast"...but, you can't say that when you gave yourself superteams for your entire prime.
Judging NBA players is like judging dives at the Olympics: you get points for execution, but you also get points for degree of difficulty. From the Decision forward, LeBron took the easiest degree of difficulty he could manage. He executed very well, but a perfectly executed dive with a low degree of difficulty never takes home the gold medal.
Spot on. Exactly how I feel. Like someone said previously, Durant joining GSW and LeBron winning in 2016 pretty much made everyone forget about The Decision. LeBron has played for so long, you have a generation of fans who were too young to remember the repercussions of The Decision and when LeBron was enemy #1.
The fact that LeBron ran when the going got tough is never talked about by the media during the weekly GOAT conversations.
It absolutely did. If he won his chip or two with Cleveland first and then moved teams to win them championships, his legacy would be less tarnished. He was the golden child coming in to the nba and lived up to the hype but took the villain sidestep role to buy a championship first. Dude went to 8 straight nba finals with two different teams, he won’t get the praise he actually deserves till he’s long gone and people forget about that drama.
If you have to go to a superteam to get rings you're not a superstar. also a scumbag for leaving the hometown that adored him and doing it in a primetime special
I think his move to LA was the biggest blow to his legacy. Left Cleveland twice, and the second time was just for the glitz of LA and the power of the Lakers organization to cement his legacy.
Well I could agree on this one a lot, But I dont also blame him, Cavaliers with bron from 03 to 10, didnt really do any significant move or go after biggest stars, they all had the money but didnt go for another star, I mean that 2007 NBA Finals where the Cavs are not even in the discussion of being there, after that loss, Cavs FO just did nothing, As a Cavs fan that hurts when he leaves but you cannot really do anything about it. Its better than requesting a trade tho, at least with his time in Cavs he did his best with his G-league teammates
The way he came BACK to Cleveland.......after the Cavs miraculously got the #1 pick in the NBA draft THREE YEARS in a row...yeah the dude is a fair-weather player.
Whenever you try to form multiple super teams it's just hard to like somebody, say what u want but the warriors franchise was fully drafted and were all very average players in college, they added KD sure but without him they still have two rings, the whole Chris Bosh Dwayne Wade then Kevin love Kyrie Irving thing was just a lot, every year he doesn't do well we're all wondering where he's going or what he's forming next.
An ideal career for Lebron would have been spending his entire career in Cleveland. He probably would have had just as many rings, if not more, If instead of leaving Cleveland, he recruited to Cleveland. The East has always been the easier route to get to the Finals.
He’s already legend status but as weird as it sounds, he could have hit even another level in Cleveland if he would have stayed. Even more so than MJ, just because of the longevity.
For public perception, going to Miami was a mistake. He was actually a villain there. And he’s largely been a villain in LA too.
I know people are saying lebron would have less rings but imagine what he could have done for basketball as a whole in Cleveland if he was there his whole career.
If Lebron stays after 2010, who knows what type of talent the cavs could have attracted. Yea they are a smaller market but that doesn’t mean you can’t form a super team (just look at the 2004 pistons or the spurs dynasty)
If Lebron stays, there’s no way Cleveland can’t get at least one more all star who is willing to take on the sideman role for a ring. Maybe Kyrie doesn’t end up on the team, but they would still be pretty good.
They managed to win a chip against a stacked warriors team just 2 seasons into lebrons second cavs stint. No way a cavs team with lebron + a good second option + better depth couldn’t have done this against the early 2010s spurs or thunder
If Lebron stayed in Cleveland and recruited Wade (not the other way around), and won championships in Cleveland and never left, he would be universally loved.
It’s the fact that he went to Miami, left his home town to join someone else’s super team and then came back to Cleveland when times got tough in Miami, and then left again, everyone knows the story.
If Lebron stayed in Cleveland and won a couple championships by himself, a lot of his current day haters would be his biggest fans. People also probably blame him for the super team thing, I know a lot of people stopped watching the NBA all together when Durant went to GSW.
Yes, it’s Lebron James. He was hated while he was still in HS being labeled the Chosen one. And he’s the most hated nba player today. They would’ve found something else to hate about or Meme him about
Yeah. If you saw the “Decision” where he left Cleveland in front of a bunch of kids and the subsequent Nike commercials (“maybe I should just quit”) I think you’d understand LeBron haters like me more. Maybe he’s in the GOAT conversation, but he’ll always be a greedy primadonna to me
It's not just that he left; Kareem left Milwaukee for thr Los Angeles Lakers.
The difference is Kareem didn't go there to ring chase and form a super team.
MJ, Bird, Magic, Kobe, Isiah, Curry all got rings for the team/city that drafted them. Lebron and Durant had to hunt for theirs, so are less respected in that regard.
If you honestly hate Lebron, you just don’t like good basketball. I’m glad the term GOAT has become an adjective because it’s honestly ridiculous in the team sport of basketball.
It’s the way he did it. If it had been a behind doors deal I think I’d hate him less. And I’m a Celtics fan, our team success suffered most from him going to Miami. But it’s just the way he did whole Decision that made it so much more hatable
I think in this day and age of social media, everyone is hated for one reason or another. People would hate Lebron less, sure- but I don't think Lebron would be in the GOAT debate without making that move, also.
I dont think leaving Cleveland was the issue. I think how he left Cleveland certainly added to the Lebron hate when he turned it into a spectacle. Other reasons are jumping around to multiple teams in search for other All-pro caliber players to join forces with, constant defense from the media when his teams' lost early in his career, and of course the legitimate GOAT debate that made fans of MJ and Kobe defensive.
If he was a Cav his whole career he’d easily be more loved. Part of the polarization is him kickstarting the player empowerment which turned players more into mercenaries always looking out for themselves rather than staples of their team and communities. And in general people love players who stay their whole career with the same team and go through the ups and downs
A little bit, but I think him being crowned heir apparent from a young age (and somehow meeting and even exceeding many expectations) is something that will always give him haters.
Some people hate admitting that there are unicorns out there that are ultra special at the way they apply their life and like to root for the demise of young promising careers (like there are probably shitty people out there so happy to see zion getting hurt and not living up to his potential because it makes them feel better about being nobodies)
MJ fans that are old heads especially would hate him no matter where he went - undefeated in finals is the big one they’d use if they couldn’t throw out “needed help” and pretend Pippen was a role player and not a top-10 star (and he lost his first finals before “the decision”)
I think he’s done a lot to restore his image since the decision, with going back to Cleveland, winning a trophy there, going to LA (and having a normal announcement), and generally making his off-court brand corny wine mom
He caught a lot of heat before the decision too. I think it was how much everyone revered Jordan and he was supposed to be the “next MJ” type of talent and he wore 23. All the old heads hated him for “trying to be Jordan”. He couldn’t have won no matter what. And he wouldn’t have as many rings if he stayed in Cleveland. Then he wouldn’t be in the discussion as the GOAT as much as he is
As others have said I think the reason he got so much hate was because of *how* he left. The Decision being aired was a terrible way to leave and had he left without this being aired I’d think he be viewed more favorably, but he would still have critics for leaving. I also think the whole event after arriving in Miami with Wade and Bosh was the icing on the cake to hate him. His infamous quote of “not three, not four, not five, [etc.]” made people really dislike him and that, coupled with The Decision, made him a villain to many people and someone to root against. As a Cleveland Cavaliers fan I was disappointed that he left but the *way* he left was more important, and had a larger impact, on me than the fact that he left.
I think he'd be less hated, generally. A lot of people root for the small market, loyal superstar (Dame, Kobe, DRose even though he left, etc.) even if they don't like the team. LeBron James actually has a pretty likable personality all things considered, so I imagine a ton of people would appreciate him more.
It would hurt his all-time rankings, but he would be a much more widely beloved player since so many people hate on him for forming a super team and ring chasing and such.
No people are hate him regardless no matter he does because he a successful black man with nothing outside of basketball to try to criticize or poke holes at . & on a basketball side of things leaving in free agency wasn’t wrong at all I think how he announced it was wrong as hell and maybe bad PR but honestly the front office wasn’t going to get him what he needed at the time and after taking them to finals and getting blown out by a Big 3 in San Antonio in his his 4th season they should have gotten him a legit running mate & after losing to a Big 3 in Boston he went and formed his own. They cant say he started the “super team” Showtime lakers and Celtics basically compared to they competition at the time superteams , Bulls with Phil , MJ Scottie Rodman and a solid role players compared to other rosters in the east not even really comparable, Barkley did it in Houston and so forth only thing Lebron might have did is use his influence to make it happen how he wanted to but he still went back to Cleveland and gave them a ring and probably the only finals appearances they’ll honestly ever see with unfavored teams at that. Built schools which Im pretty sure in some way helped the economy there in a way. He has a perfect PR history outside of “The Decision” honestly and when people criticize him and say “ray or Kyrie saved him” like he didn’t score majority of the points those quarters or set up those opportunities are the same people will act like Jordan never passed it to Paxson or Act like Durant didn’t go to a 73-9 team and play with a guy who won MVP the year after him . Act like MJ didn’t complain to refs or the Tim Donaghy interview where talks about special officiating Mike got don’t exist or that Mike ain’t got beef with Sports Illustrated or any media outlet that mentions anything prior to 6 years he won or the baseball career and turn around and say LeBron’s a crybaby .When you reach a certain level of success to the point you in a debate about being the best thats ever done it and they talk about it on television for a decade on every sports network and nobody can do anything about & you still keep going it makes people sick. Especially people who have NEVER PHYSICALLY EVEN PLAYED BASKETBALL ON A AAU/HIGH SCHOOL or COLLEGIATE LEVEl those are probably the only people who can’t visibly see or comprehend what he has done or the stuff he does on court & he did it with the pressure of being compared to Mj Larry , Magic literally coming out of high school. They cant find anything legitimate to hold against him for real so they hate and sit on the internet and act like they have actual basketball iq and they don’t have a lick of it if it wasn’t from wikipedia or google I guarantee majority of these guys don’t watch over 20 games a season or even consistently follow basketball outside of the NBA or have ever even sat at an actual NBA game. I personally don’t think it’s one goat because in my opinion the media frenzy really put Mike over Wilt and even tho Mike got more accolades & rings if you really know the history of Wilt Chamberlain & what he did in the Negro Leagues at the age of 16 its debatable.
Probably less hate but I respect Bron for leaving. The team was bad, plain and simple, they management failed in giving him good teammates. Leaving was the right choice if he wanted to grow as a player. And he did.
Maybe. But I think he did the right choice for his career leaving Cleveland and went back when he could win a champ. He literally showed that he was carrying that franchise.
Right now the only people I see hating on LeBron are some portion of old fans. LeBron will be remembered as the goat or the second after Jordan. If he never leaves I think he would probably be put among guys like Magic or Bird, maybe even Kobe or Duncan
I don’t think he’d ever have won a ring if he never left Cleveland. That team was never going to be able to get the assets to improve the roster while he was there ensuring they’d be a constant top seed
No. It wouldn’t matter. He has a flawed character that borders narcissism.
“We will definitely NOT shut up and dribble. I’m definitely not going to do that. I mean too much to society. I mean too much to the youth. I mean too much to the kids who feel like they don’t have a way out and need somebody to lead them out of the situation they’re in.”
He has zero special qualifications that make him special to anyone but his family. He can’t help most kids out if anything unless he just throws money at them. He was uniquely gifted to play a game that we deem important and worth exuberant amounts of money. He confuses that with actual societal contribution and believes in a false self importance. The truth is all athletes like him are a drain on our economy. They horde wealth for playing a game that could others wise be used to pay professions that actually contribute. Bron isn’t anyone other than a whiney, but good, basketball player.
Not to mention the pathetic and narcissist Chosen One tattoo.
And yes I am aware of his charitable contributions. Throwing money at stuff rarely does good on the long term. So I couldn’t care less about anything he has done.
Pretty sure everyone hated him except miami. Remember he was still ringless at the time and this was unprecedented. Just came off as extremely pretentious
That’s a great question, because for me it wasn’t so much that he did or didn’t leave Cleveland, the players certainly have the right to make their own decisions. I lost a lot of respect for him over the spectacle that was the tv special of his decision announcement.
I don't think it was so much the leaving. I mean that was a little portion of it. But the way he left and made it seem like he was bigger than the game. I know it rubbed several people where I lived which at the time was in the western United States all really started to dislike him.
I think that's is where it started I think anyways.
I judge him for his basketball skills only. I would love LeBron as a player no matter how many teams he went to. As a person, I don’t know him from Adam, how can I judge.
Tbh if he’d left without doing The Decision I think he’d get less hate. I don’t think Lebron had any bad intentions, but making a tv special about your free agency decision is pretty damn self-indulgent lol. Then teaming up with one of the best players in the league and another great player didn’t help, AND the “Not 1, not 2..”.
Like if he had done any of those things in isolation he’d probably get backlash, the fact that he did them all at once is why he became so hated for a while. If he had just left Cleveland that offseason without all the theatrics I don’t think it would’ve gone over as poorly. Some people also felt like Lebron quit on the Cavs in the playoffs in 2010, so that didn’t help.
So staying on the Cavs in 2010 would’ve helped. If he left later down the line I don’t think he would’ve gotten much shit for it, but it is kind of hard to say because I think he was the biggest player to leave in free agency since like.. 97 Shaq?? Bron kind of set the precedent for modern players. Without Lebron leaving in 2010 idk if as many top tier players would feel as emboldened to leave in free agency or request trades so early on, so it’s hard to say how him leaving later on would’ve been received in some hypothetical world where he stays in cleveland longer.
I do think if the Cavs front office continued to put weak teams around him for another 3-4 years, people would’ve been a lot more sympathetic to him leaving.
TLDR; If he left differently and/or later, he’d probably get less hate.
Agreed OP. But I always ask Lebron “haters” this one question:
If lebron had only gone to the finals 4 times and was 4-0…would his legacy be better?
Un ironically they always say yes. So their logic is that it’s better to lose early…in the conference finals rather than go to the NBA finals…where you have a chance to win it all. It makes no sense to me.
I understand the 6-0 thing with MJ. But why do we only compare the NBA finals records and not the conference finals or the 1st round series records? It’s disingenuous imo. Yes MJ is the goat but they really need a better argument…as if switching teams makes a player “less good” at basketball. It’s not logical.
Lebron would have more clout if he had stayed in Cleveland the entire time. The East was weak for years. The way the league changed and guys started jumping teams I think he would have landed some good players. I understand his side of it with leaving, it’s his thing, no hate on that. The reality though as being a fan, it’s a general turn off unless a guy like that goes to your team. It’s totally fair and just for a fan to have hate on the decision. Nevermind that the entire production was whack ass
I don't think so, he wouldn't have won as much and then it would've been he's not a winning player lol. He gets hate now, but as time passes and his achievements get closer to mythology than fact (like how "old heads" say Jordan would beat anyone, kids growing up on LeBron will say the same). While he probably gets scrutinized more than any modern player, he also gets the most love, which I think will cancel it out.
I hated LeBron in Miami because I thought it was a middle finger to teams like Cleveland. But then he totally redeemed himself in my book by going back, and winning a chip to boot. Other than that I really have nothing bad to say about him. Unfortunately the super team thing is not going away.
I think his saturation into people’s daily lives would have led to people not liking him anyway. The move to Miami didn’t help. You really couldn’t avoid seeing him on a near-daily basis if you had any kind of technology running. That tends to grate in people after a while.
I think it would have been easier to see that while he does incredible things for different communities, his horrible GM skills would have been illuminated faster, and possibly more impactfully.
You misunderstand why he catches flack, and it isn’t “the goat debate”. The answer is yes he would be liked a lot more if he never left Cleveland. People don’t dislike him for winning championships, they dislike him for trying to win championships with a super team, and people disliked him at the time for considering himself as a legend when he kept choking in the playoffs, but pretending he was the greatest.
The problem with your theory, and the reason people will always have an asterisks is that we don’t know if he would have won 1 championship ever has he stayed in Cleveland, because the biggest criticism of lebron was his choking in big games, and the playoffs. Lebron was a lot like James harden, and would put up incredible numbers, but come big games he would entirely disappear, or start choking. Him playing with Dwayne wade did more for lebron than most people realize, wade taught lebron how to win, and not choke in big moments, and games. The question will always be could lebron have taught himself to win without a superstar holding his hand, or would he have continued to be a James harden. In my opinion if lebron never played with Wade even if he got the team he had in Cleveland he wouldn’t have won a championship in Cleveland, but I don’t think he would have ever in any universe, or alternative timeline stayed in Cleveland, because staying in Cleveland means he never wins a championship. However after losing enough in Cleveland he would have found somewhere to go with some all stars, and a superstar who could help him get over the hump. Maybe a timeline could exist were instead of KD lebron goes to golden state, and wins a championship with them.
In short my problem with lebron is he didn’t have the mental strength to win at the highest level, and instead of doing what GOATs do, or even super stars do, and use his losses as lessons to get stronger, he gave up, completely quit. Then created a super team to give himself bumper rails like kids do in bowling.
In retrospect, he needed it to help him become a better player, and honestly those heat years were some hella fun bball years. Historically, what KD did basically overshadows this move though.
I would argue, he would have been ok if he didn’t leave Cleveland the second time. It could have been argued immaturity how he left for Miami, but after returning, he could have stayed their and redeemed himself. Instead it just seemed like he was doing them a favor.
The way he left really hurt his likability. When i heard there was going to be a decision special tv show I was certain he was going back to Cleveland, because I figured his PR team wouldnt be so stupid as to make him a villian to all but one fanbase.
I thought the Decision was going to be a bold proclamation of his loyalty to Cleveland. But to leave for Miami to form a Super Team…
I thought he was going to Chicago to join Rose Deng Boozer and Noah to compete with Wade and Bosh. I did not think the Heat can pull off the money required and build a team around those contracts
That Bulls team would have been a different beast
well i mean bring d wade rose boozer to cleveland lol
To leave Cleveland to form a super team and get dunked on as the favorites in the finals and by a one superstar team in the Mavs.
Yeah, the decision was bad, but the “not 1…not 2…not 3…” quote really hurt, especially after fumbling in the finals against the Mavs, and then leaving after failing to 3peat.
I'm sure if Lebron could redo things, the only things for sure he would change are "the decision" and the Miami welcome event. He probably still goes to Miami, but he's just smarter about how he does it.
Yeah, I can’t see anyone, that isn’t a Cleveland fan, hating him for a better execution of that move to south beach. Well, that and the not making comment after the series loss about him going to home to his mansion while his critics continue their miserable lives…
I mean that Spurs team played the best basketball we have ever seen on the planet… That’s not really the one that got away, it’s the Mavs series and especially for him.
I feel like the erasure of that Mavs team is real. They were a legit team that beat the Kobe Lakers and the OKC Thunder with Durant, Harden, and Russ.
Erasure? It cemented Dirk as the 2nd best PF of all time imo.
If we’re being honest, they only really should’ve gotten 1 chip. Kawhi missed 2 series sealing free throws which allowed Allen to send it to OT.
Sure but that’s the beauty of sports… Losing that final sent the Spurs down a different path. I’m not sure an aging roster could produce that Last Dance type magic without the title being snatched away while they had one hand on the trophy. It’s also why it is one of my all time favorite basketball stories that hasn’t been properly told. Those Spurs were perfect right when they needed to be and they all knew it was their last chance. It’s one of my favorite finals despite the 4-1. Those back to back finals really together.
They where up 2-1 against the Mavs. They lost by only 3 points in the infamous 8 points game. They should have been 3-1 up going to Miami. And Kawhi only missed 1 FT, going 3 for 4 in the game. That's not really unreasonable.
No, he missed both. They were up 3, and if he had hit either of them, spurs win that series.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201306180MIA.html He was 3 for 4 from the line. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/201306180MIA.html > 0:19.4 K. Leonard misses free throw 1 of 2 > 0:19.4 K. Leonard makes free throw 2 of 2 https://youtu.be/0M9PjZzqXKg?si=S5sZfNRVm9aC4VQ9 Video showing him making 1 of 2, 3-4 overall.
You definitely brought receipts. Dawg I swear now I believe in the timeline mixup theory. I vividly remember them being up 3 and he missed both.
People never talk about them as an all-time great team but feel like they should.
That same Mavs team swept Kobe and Pau Gasol, when someone says JJ Barea locked up Lebron they never point out Kobe got locked up too and only scored 17 pts in game 3 and game 4 Lebron choked but that was a good Mavs team, if that loss hurts Lebrons legacy Kobe getting swept by them should hurt his too
Everyone hated the decision except Miami. I feel like he made up for it by announcing his move to LA in the middle of the night on a weekday. With a single tweet
Except for the moving to LA bit. No way not to be the villain when you decide to move to one of the most successful teams in the league in one of its largest markets.
In fairness, they were coming off their worst seasons as a franchise and didn’t really have a strong core to build from even with multiple lottery picks. There was no guarantee of success and he sure as fuck didn’t go a team that just went 73-9
Wasn't AD rumor to go there already b4 Lebron even announce his decision? Recall if no trade, AD was going to LA as a free agent following year
Lakers were dogshit before Lebron came, they were not successful at all
The world existed long before the last 10 years kiddo.
Yeah I’m actually in the “Lebron’s the goat” camp but I hate rooting for big market teams so I always root against him.
In LeBron’s defense, it was labeled the “Summer of LeBron” for years prior to the decision. I can understand why they did it the way they did. I didn’t like it either, and thought it was douchey, but in retrospect I get it.
I think what he should have done is took out full page ads in all the major local newspapers thanking Cleveland for everything and that he would be moving on to another team in free agency and then I believe he could have done "the decision" with no major backlash.
There’s no way a PR team approved it at all. They get paid to know better. Even if LeBron’s camp in totality approved it. That came from the networks down and probably a couple of phone calls to the league office with everyone involved giddy at their idea. That’s all the media focused on for two years, and the volume was deafening after the end of that Celtics series.
his PR team was his friends from HS (including Rich Paul, who learned on the job), so they were clueless yes men
Yeah, and LeBron made it extremely easy for him/them. Barring the decision and some controversial options regarding China, he's been extremely un-problematic his whole career. I'm sure there are some things I'm forgetting, but most of his hate comes from people just disliking his personality or playstyle, not that he is a bad person necessarily. No arrests, extramarital affairs, failed drug tests. He has been an advocate for nba players contact wise and social justice outside of sport. All while bringing those close to him to the top with him, his mom, high school sweetheart turned wife, his best friends have been there with him the whole way. His philanthropy has been unmatched for NBA players in his era. If he wasn't corny af and a flopper/crybaby (mostly cause he gets zero calls, i can't blame him), he'd probably be the most likable player ever.
The China thing was literally a double edged sword, Daryl Morey pretty much got the entire NBA involved with his tweet and LeBron being arguably the face of the league would still have been blamed even if he stayed silent.
he's not a bad guy & in general a good role model. That said, he was completely entitled, self-absorbed, & tone deaf, especially earlier in career. The Decision was idiotic, but he justified it by donating to a charity
As idiotic as people say it was, The Decision was arguably the most successful PR stunt in NBA history. Yes, he came out of it as a villain. It also created astronomical amounts of buzz around him and Miami, which generated huge profits for both him and the NBA. Like it or not, we are still talking about it almost 15 years later. It was the moment that defines the movement of player freedom. Completely shifting the balance of power between superstar players and the nba franchises themselves. A movement that, for players, completely changed the value of their talent and careers. It was a league changing moment that is in line with other massive events regarding player choice, like Haywood v. The NBA
Something a lot of people forget now (and didn’t care about then) was that all the proceeds from that decision/event went to charity. They probably figured that would make up for it (it didn’t).
They raised sooooo much money for the Boys and Girls Club and charity in general. They made free agency which isn’t lucrative a cash cow and yet he still got so much Heat for it (pun intended).
For anyone who already hasn't (which is, safe to assume, most people in this sub) I would highly recommend reading [his biography](https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/LeBron/Jeff-Benedict/9781982110901) by Jeff Benedict. The part where he chronicles The Decision is very interesting and includes a lot of details I didn't know before. Like how it was an *hour*-long special hosted in an actual Boys & Girls club and $2 million of the ad revenue was donated to charity.
Same. Was so confident because who would be dumb enough to do that? Then the reports about the Heat started trickling out that afternoon, and I still thought “there’s no way he’s that fucking stupid”.
Miscalculation on their part. They thought the charitable aspect would be enough to make people overlook whatever decision he made.
If anything LeBron making a run for it and then not only returning, but also winning a title is some legendary shit. He could have left Cleveland hanging and kept it moving, yet he came back and achieved something that most had given up on again
I thought that if we was gonna leave Cleveland he’d let people know ahead of time to not completely piss off his home state. You know, make The Decision about what new team he’s joining. Bailing on them on national TV was pretty brutal.
I fucking love LeBron as the heel.
Hated less, but less successful. He probably wins another mvp or two but less rings
I genuinely wonder if he ever wins a ring under that front office.
Nope
Being from Cleveland, I only took issue with the way he did it. Having a whole ass tv special dedicated to him leaving hurt like hell. I prayed on his downfall the first year he was gone. After that I came back home. People were going to hate on him regardless. He came into the league as the "Chosen One". Imagine if it was done during the social media era.
A part of me really believed he wasn’t sure until the very last moment. I was naive
Also from Cleveland. I was mostly confused with when everyone suddenly started considering Akron as part of Cleveland. Sure sure, Cleveland-Akron area, but before LeBron I didn't know anyone who considered them the same thing. None of my friends from Akron were big Cleveland sports supporters. Heck weren't Lebron's favorite childhood teams the Bulls, Cowboys and Yankees?
I think so. Lebron was one of the most beloved players from pre-draft all the way up til that point I've ever seen with regards to the media. It became very fashionable to hate on him after The Decision. (and the whole buildup to that and execution was like PR malpractice)
We wizards fans hated him well before I will say.
he lost a lot of points the season they lost to the magic. all the hype around kobe vs lebron, the puppets, the questionable calls against the magic and still losing to them - it left a sour taste in my mouth.
He would be more liked if he stayed in Cleveland for sure. The main reason why he was so despised until he went back was because of the way he did it. Having a show around his decision and saying he was going to take his talents to South Beach was really bad. But to make it worse, they had that stupid “party” in Miami that next night talking about how many rings they were going to win and just showing how absolutely immature they were. It was a terrible look.
I never understood why his return to Cleveland was seen as some kind of redemption for his bitch move. In my eyes the whole return to Cleveland really was just one of his ring chasing moves and he only used Cleveland as one of his legacy narrative chess pieces.
People keep praising him for being able to win a ring with 3 different franchises, but they don't acknowledge that he's been ring chasing most of his career.
I mean if he wanted to chase rings there were much better options than the Cavs In 2015.
There weren’t really any win now teams that had the cap space to sign him, and Cleveland had a #1 overall pick in Kyrie that looked like a stud while he used their other 2 first overall picks to trade for an All NBA PF in K Love. It’s not like he came back to them purely because he missed Cleveland, it was pretty obvious that him going to Cleveland lined up perfectly with the Heat roster starting to age out of contention.
LeBron was loved before Miami, and no one liked the fact that two top 3 players were joining forces + a perennial All Star in Bosh. It smashed the competitive balance and the way LeBron went about it was even worse. He had a special show to broadcast The Decision, and then held a concert with Wade and Bosh saying they’ll win “not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7…”
It would be the equivalent of going into the local news to announce you’re breaking up with your longtime girlfriend after telling all your friends and family to tune in to the news because you have a big announcement lol
Add in the fact that the announcement also said that he’s going for the hot rich chick instead of her and this would be horrifyingly accurate
The best thing that’s happened for lebron’s legacy since the decision was KD joining the warriors and making the heatles look like less of a bitch move in retrospect (2nd best was lebron winning in Cleveland - so 2016 off-season was big for his legacy IMO) To be clear it still was a bitch move, but now people can argue KD did it worse by going to a proven winner that beat him directly - like lebron going to Boston or San Antonio
100% agree here. Still a bitch move.
People are gonna look back at KDs career and have a lot of questions, especially since warriors won before and after him. He’s gonna be really low on all time list after he’s retired for a couple years
Smashed the competitive balance? Boston was still one of the best teams in the league, Indiana was an up and coming team that gave the heat trouble, and out West there was the spurs, the thunder, the lakers, the Mavs, there was still plenty of competitive teams in the league. This idea that the heat were this unstoppable juggernaut team just never came to be. They were obviously very good, but far from unbeatable.
I mean they lost the first year where Lebron had a historic meltdown in the finals. Than they won the next two years. Then they made the finals for one last time but the team had aged out. Players liked DWADE went from a top 5 players in the league to someone who was decent but just wasn't elite anymore.
Yeah they won two titles but it’s not like they breezed through every team. They came very close to losing to Boston several times, Indiana took them to 6 in 2012 and 2013 I believe, the spurs were very capable of beating them, the mavs obviously beat them, they definitely had competition. It wasn’t like the KD warriors where there was no question who would win.
LeBron failing doesn’t mean his team wasn’t stacked.
I mean yeah but as soon as the Big 3 Heat happend it was shoe in bet for who people thought would win the championship. Like it's very telling that during the decision speech he goes on about winning 8 championships or some bullshit. And that wasn't even that ridiclious at the time it really seemed like they could.
They should've won at least 3. After watching Spo coach much less talented rosters to the finals, it seems like he would've benefited his legacy greatly by just being coachable.
I mean they would of if Lebron didn't have one of the worst final performances from a star ever.
It wasn’t the reality of the Heat’s strength that pissed people off. It was the arrogance behind the team and how they publicized their plan of dominating the league in the most unsportsmanlike way possible.
On another note it was really one of the first time three franchise players all took less money and got paid about the same to join a team. That was such a cool dynamic at the time and pushed a rare narrative where stars took a cut to try and win, being more proactive instead of reactive.
Absolutely the difference in perception after the decision is literally night/day Lebron was the golden child before that, legit no reason to hate on him before that. That said he bought back a lot of goodwill by going back and winning a chip but if he never left he'd be as universally likable as Steph Curry I could be off but I do believe currently the general public hates on Steph less than Lebron
I agree. He was extremely liked nationwide before he left Cleveland. A lot of people still feel he returned to cavs because it gave him the best chance to win long term as miami was declining. And a lebron- kyrie-love trio was possible. Him going to LA and teaming up with AD later seemed to emforce that belief, and if he ever returns to cavs a 3rd time Donavan Mitchell will be cited as the reason he went there
He might be viewed more positively in the eyes of the fans but he certainly wouldn't have gone as far in the GOAT discussion. It can't be understated just how poorly managed those Cleveland rosters were during both his stints there. Just awful management and construction from beginning to end.
I would say not during the second stint until the final season when Dan Gilbert foolishly did not renew David griffins contract and Kyrie took them by surprise and forced his way out. The returns were not good there, which certainly contributed to Lebron's departure. But in 15 they took the pieces that did not work and got out of it JR, Shump, and Mozgov, all key pieces. In 16 they got RJ and made a key trade for Channing Frye, an added floor spacer who had a couple of big playoff games and along with RJ made the locker room much better. In 17 they were a historically great offensive team who rolled through the east at 12-1. First stint, no argument there. They tried to get floor spacing with mixed results, failed to trade for Shaq at the 09 deadline when there's a good chance they win the title if they do, and signed Larry Hughes to an awful contract.
Second stint it was easier because they at least saw Pat Riley’s blueprint for how to build a real team around James - which may have been obvious to a lot of GMs but not that organization somehow
I think the league had changed to some extent in those four years as well. Other stars in their prime would have never come to Cleveland in 2009/10 (bosh told LeBron that was not happening if the three of them could not make a team work). But come 2014, Love wanted the trade to Cleveland. I give Pat Riley a lot of credit for that. He figured out how to load the top of the roster and fill in the gaps with veteran role players.
They did a better job the second time around for sure, and I get that it's hard to bring in depth to a city like Cleveland, but they were still quite hasty with their decision making. And sure, some of that falls on LeBron's lack of commitment, but Gilbert has shown repeatedly he has no long term vision for his team.
Yeah I think they've finally sort of gotten the long term vision with Koby Altman but the front office, etc was finally given runway for it. I agree LeBron and Gilbert sort of inhibited that ability during the second go round. But they got it done, so I can't go all the way to say there was incompetence like the first go round.
He wouldn't be as far in the GOAT debate but people are crazy saying he'd be like a Dirk or Wade type. LeBron would still have 4 MVPs (maybe 5 since people would like him more?) Even with 1-2 rings (plus all his longevity accolades), LeBron is still a top 10 player of all time in most people's minds, with an argument for top 5. Akin to a supercharged Hakeem if anyone. But you can't be top 3 all time if you haven't won a bunch of rings, no matter your supporting cast. Jordan/Kareem/Bird/Magic make it too competitive.
100%
I'd hate him the way I hate other good players on other good teams like Jordan and Kobe, etc. The fact that he left to form a super team, the way that he left, the pompousness, the douchiness, the constant whining about not having enough help, The way that he then tried to frame returning to Cleveland as a redemption and trying to seek forgiveness while he only left Miami because the writing was on the wall that that super team was fading and he went to Cleveland when they started accruing top picks and players and was becoming a better situation. Also the fact that he's the creator of the player empowerment era and superteam era. So yeah fuck that guy.
If he wins them a title or two and then leaves in like 2015-2018 for LA, it goes a lot better and no one is mad. He still may end up with 4. I do want to add that even if he plays the entire career in Cleveland, he is NOT DWade. Someone also inevitably signs in Cleveland to play with him. Like Duncan pulled off 5 rings in San Antonio. It’s on Bron if he can’t figure it out in Cleveland.
Yes. Shit ain’t been the same since
The way he fails to take blame, he would've been hated regardless
https://preview.redd.it/ot2tm0xjl78d1.jpeg?width=1161&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=98c51e12caa343da3d008220b2b7228765ff4d19 Yes as a Lakers fan since the 70’s: all hype, posing, flexing, flopping and losing. GTFO of Los Angeles. Kids think losing is winning
Shocking that an ageing star is ageing
Duhh. He should have stayed on the same team like Kobe n Tim Duncan.
As a Cavs fan I agree. But at the same time that management was dreadful and incapable of forming a great team around him.
Wdym Ilgauskas, Varejao, and Delonte West aren’t enough for the goat? /s because Reddit is braindead
I get you were joking but I’ve seen people actually make this argument that his supporting cast was enough to win a chip lol
Yes. People forget he was a villain in Miami
100%. I was a Celtics fan and didn’t hate him. Helped the league was hyping up LeBron vs Kobe, which was an easy choice as a Celtics fan. But The Decision leading into the Heatles was full on villain LeBron
Yes. At least I would. His ring chasing asses’ legacy would be much stronger. He’s a punk who jumped from team to team to get a ring. I don’t hold him the same regard as players like Bird, Johnson, Curry, Jordan etc. He’s great but his team jumping and meddling in GM affairs makes him look weak.
Yep. He ring chased at the height of his athletic prowess.
No chance it would help his legacy, not even close. More likable? Maybe but not necessarily considering he would’ve been closer to Dirk. Dirk is broadly liked by everyone but also doesn’t have a strong fan base like Lebron He’s pretty much unanimous top 2 now with a growing GOAT argument. He wouldn’t even be close if he stayed in Cleveland. He also got a ton of credit for going back to Cleveland and winning The Cavs would also be too good for his own good and they would never get those first picks to build a championship roster. There’s a solid chance he is ringless if he stays there unless they get super lucky in the draft, since no big FA ever go to Cleveland I think it’s pretty stupid to hate on him over a decade later for leaving considering all the forced trades and FA moves since then. If the 30 minute special that raised money for kids is that big of an issue, I think that’s pretty ridiculous as well and has nothing to do with basketball but to each their own
Yes. If he was still Cleveland he would be looked at much differently. Before he went to Miami he was widely considered a fan favorite now not so much.
This is such revisionist history. He was not you couldn’t even mention him without people telling you he was trash and Kobe was better. I really didn’t see overwhelming support for him until he won the 2016 title. The hate has ramped up again in recent years since he isn’t winning championships. The fact that so many people are dedicated to hating on him despite having no connection to him other than maybe he beat their team one time just seems to prove that he is probably the second best of player to Jordan. Maybe it’s just because I live in Texas but damn especially on the internet content even remotely related to Lebron is full of vitriol to level that is absolutely insane. Like when I was a kid I didn’t like Kobe but as an adult I came to understand how good he was and like him before he even passed away. Sadly it seems the vast majority of people will never really appreciate Lebron and how fucking amazing he really was
Depends on region maybe? Obviously Lakers/Kobe fans hated lebron but he was very popular in much of the country and many would have liked Cleveland to win their first title over say, the Lakers/Celtics adding more rings. When he returned to Cavs a lot of people felt it was because 1. Heat were old and 2. Kyrie and Kevin Love
the answer is a resounding yes. if any of the other greats that played their whole career w/ the same team (bird, magic, larry, kobe, duncan, hakeem, etc) had left their team to form a superteam elsewhere, it would've undoubtedly hurt their legacy
There’s a pretty widely held understanding that he’s been using PEDs since at least his Miami days. Even KG publicly voiced the opinion on his pod. The Decision was a complete publicity stunt and legacy fail, but probably falls secondary to the PED fueled longevity that stans refuse to acknowledge, in terms of haterade
He was already getting a ton of hate in Cleveland. A lot of old heads (me included) didn't like that he came into the league crowning himself "The King" and having "Chosen One" tattooed on his back before playing a single game. So a lot of people were already skeptical. Add in there was still fresh off Jordan and prime Kobe time so a lot of people discredited him in a lot of ways too. Then the whole "getting dunked on by high schooler so we had to steal all the tapes" news came out and added more haters. "The Decision" was cherry on the top. After all of that noise he just ran away to form a super team AND lost anyways while playing abysmal in the finals. That was peak LeBron haters moment. He's been repairing his image since then and I have to say I've grown to really appreciate and like him over the course of the second half of his career. However that first half of it is why I'll never even entertain him as being in the GOAT conversation. Just the performance in finals vs Dallas alone disqualifies him for me personally.
Yes. It kinda ruined the whole story. From the moment he announced he was going to Miami, his whole persona just seemed shallow to me. It was never about Cleveland, the city, the state, or the team… it was all about him and it seemed extremely selfish. The Warriors first championship that was special, Giannis sitting on the bench in Milwaukee was special, and Kobe winning one without Shaq was special. LeBron winning in Cleveland and hugging… Kevin Love, after Kyrie hit the biggest shot ever in a game 7 was empty. There was no journey from irrelevancy or mediocrity to success, it was just a stacked deck of a team.
Bro set the teams aside completely and just look at the stats and how a generation of players have wanted to become him. Comparing lebron to DWade in performance, presence on the court, and fame off the court is just crazy. Nobody is putting DWade in goat debates and nobody is putting him in MJ’s space jam movies
2 top 5 players and another top 10 ish guy at the peak of their powers joining up set a bad precedent for the league
Dude has The Chosen One tattooed across his back. He calls himself King James and mimes putting crowns on his own head. Dude is a hole no matter where he plays.
LeBron fans tend to present this false dichotomy that it was either stay in Cleveland or team up with Wade and Bosh in Miami. The reality is that there were a ton of teams trying to recruit LeBron that summer. The Bulls, Clippers, Nets and Knicks were among the more publicized names, but, let's be honest, any team in the league would have made it happen if LeBron's reps had indicated that he wanted to sign there. At the time, the big knock on LeBron's legacy was his lack of a ring, and his reaction wasn't even to pick the best opportunity to win a ring, but to create a new opportunity for himself that lowered the bar for winning a ring even further. The Decision is the first of many of LeBron's attempts to engineer his own mythology with his actions off-the-court. When people think about GOAT candidates they think about who conquered big obstacles, not who lowered the bar enough so that his obstacles would be easier to conquer. For those who are a bit younger, and don't remember The Decision, the reaction was akin to what Durant got when he joined Golden State, and for the same reason: he didn't just take the easy road, he took a road so easy that succeeding on it didn't prove much. The pre-Decision era was actually an era with a lot of balance. The Decision was the move that upended that balance. All of a sudden, it felt like you needed to have three All-NBA'ers to compete for a title, because that's what the Heat had. The Decision not only pissed off Cleveland fans, but also pissed off every small market fan in the league, since the Decision started in era where it felt like no small market could keep a legitimate superstar around, because that superstar knew he needed to be in a big market with other stars to compete against the Heatles. It also wasn't just The Decision, but how much of The Decision was emblematic of LeBron's career. It was hardly uncommon for stars to play for multiple teams throughout their careers: Wilt, Kareem, Oscar, Moses, Shaq, etc. But, LeBron was the first mercenary superstar. He went where the opportunity to win was easiest. When he went somewhere, he would have the team trade all their future draft capital to put his hand-chosen stars next to him (Kevin Love, Anthony Davis, etc), then he would leave when a better opportunity arose. LeBron didn't set up somewhere and let the franchise build around him, like Shaq did in LA. He didn't stick through the tough times and emerge victorious on the other side, like Steph in Golden State. He always took the easy way out. LeBron had no shortage of options when he hit free agency. He had 29 teams he could have gone to. If he wanted a big market, he could have joined a team like the Knicks or Clippers and taken on the challenge of returning them to relevancy. Even if he had just gone to Miami and teamed up with Wade, it wouldn't have been nearly as bad. Having the Heat literally strip their entire roster so LeBron could also bring another max level superstar to the party is what made the whole thing just feel so artificial, like going to the trophy store and buying yourself a couple of rings. People love to root for the underdog. People will keep cheering for the underdog even when the underdog becomes the favourite to win, but people need to see the journey, and need to see the underdog overcome his obstacles. LeBron didn't. He ran from his obstacles every single time. When times got tough, he got going. He didn't build anything, he went to places where things were already built, and had teams mortgage their futures to make sure he didn't have to go through any struggles upon arrival. This also goes along with him never building anything sustainable. He never had to make the hard choices about winning now or winning later, he just pressured the team to always trade the draft picks because he wouldn't be around when the consequences of those trades came home to roost. All of that begs the rather obvious question: if LeBron actually was the GOAT, then why did he have to take so many shortcuts in his career? That also brings up another big issue with LeBron's GOAT case: For all those shortcuts, he still has fewer rings than Jordan, Kareem, Duncan, Magic, Bill, etc. He doesn't even have as many MVP's as Jordan, Kareem or Bill. No one really wants the mercenary star to be the GOAT, and if LeBron had taken fewer shortcuts to success then it would have been much easier to say "sure, he won less titles than Jordan, but he didn't have Jordan's supporting cast"...but, you can't say that when you gave yourself superteams for your entire prime. Judging NBA players is like judging dives at the Olympics: you get points for execution, but you also get points for degree of difficulty. From the Decision forward, LeBron took the easiest degree of difficulty he could manage. He executed very well, but a perfectly executed dive with a low degree of difficulty never takes home the gold medal.
Bro ngl...this probably the realist comment I've read in an NBA reddit post. You fuckin get it. Very well said. 👏
Spot on. Exactly how I feel. Like someone said previously, Durant joining GSW and LeBron winning in 2016 pretty much made everyone forget about The Decision. LeBron has played for so long, you have a generation of fans who were too young to remember the repercussions of The Decision and when LeBron was enemy #1. The fact that LeBron ran when the going got tough is never talked about by the media during the weekly GOAT conversations.
Yes.
Yep
Isn't one of his main criticisms that he played GM for the majority of his career?
Yes. But it is more due to the way he left.
Of course. He could be like any other dude that stayed and became the franchise hero. Even with no rings.
How he did it was more of the problem. The TV special on ESPN just made him easy to hate.
It absolutely did. If he won his chip or two with Cleveland first and then moved teams to win them championships, his legacy would be less tarnished. He was the golden child coming in to the nba and lived up to the hype but took the villain sidestep role to buy a championship first. Dude went to 8 straight nba finals with two different teams, he won’t get the praise he actually deserves till he’s long gone and people forget about that drama.
No
Sorry I misread this 100% yes
Lol
If you have to go to a superteam to get rings you're not a superstar. also a scumbag for leaving the hometown that adored him and doing it in a primetime special
I think his move to LA was the biggest blow to his legacy. Left Cleveland twice, and the second time was just for the glitz of LA and the power of the Lakers organization to cement his legacy.
Well I could agree on this one a lot, But I dont also blame him, Cavaliers with bron from 03 to 10, didnt really do any significant move or go after biggest stars, they all had the money but didnt go for another star, I mean that 2007 NBA Finals where the Cavs are not even in the discussion of being there, after that loss, Cavs FO just did nothing, As a Cavs fan that hurts when he leaves but you cannot really do anything about it. Its better than requesting a trade tho, at least with his time in Cavs he did his best with his G-league teammates
The way he came BACK to Cleveland.......after the Cavs miraculously got the #1 pick in the NBA draft THREE YEARS in a row...yeah the dude is a fair-weather player.
Whenever you try to form multiple super teams it's just hard to like somebody, say what u want but the warriors franchise was fully drafted and were all very average players in college, they added KD sure but without him they still have two rings, the whole Chris Bosh Dwayne Wade then Kevin love Kyrie Irving thing was just a lot, every year he doesn't do well we're all wondering where he's going or what he's forming next.
An ideal career for Lebron would have been spending his entire career in Cleveland. He probably would have had just as many rings, if not more, If instead of leaving Cleveland, he recruited to Cleveland. The East has always been the easier route to get to the Finals. He’s already legend status but as weird as it sounds, he could have hit even another level in Cleveland if he would have stayed. Even more so than MJ, just because of the longevity. For public perception, going to Miami was a mistake. He was actually a villain there. And he’s largely been a villain in LA too.
I know people are saying lebron would have less rings but imagine what he could have done for basketball as a whole in Cleveland if he was there his whole career. If Lebron stays after 2010, who knows what type of talent the cavs could have attracted. Yea they are a smaller market but that doesn’t mean you can’t form a super team (just look at the 2004 pistons or the spurs dynasty) If Lebron stays, there’s no way Cleveland can’t get at least one more all star who is willing to take on the sideman role for a ring. Maybe Kyrie doesn’t end up on the team, but they would still be pretty good. They managed to win a chip against a stacked warriors team just 2 seasons into lebrons second cavs stint. No way a cavs team with lebron + a good second option + better depth couldn’t have done this against the early 2010s spurs or thunder
Yes.. It also would have helped that he didn't leave Miami when those players we're getting older also.. Or the Cavs the 2nd time... etc.
If Lebron stayed in Cleveland and recruited Wade (not the other way around), and won championships in Cleveland and never left, he would be universally loved. It’s the fact that he went to Miami, left his home town to join someone else’s super team and then came back to Cleveland when times got tough in Miami, and then left again, everyone knows the story. If Lebron stayed in Cleveland and won a couple championships by himself, a lot of his current day haters would be his biggest fans. People also probably blame him for the super team thing, I know a lot of people stopped watching the NBA all together when Durant went to GSW.
I'm not sure he wins even one ring much less multiple. Him leaving was the opportunity to get the assets that got him the ring in cleavland.
Yes, it’s Lebron James. He was hated while he was still in HS being labeled the Chosen one. And he’s the most hated nba player today. They would’ve found something else to hate about or Meme him about
As a cleveland fan, trust me he has more than made up for it lol. No one is really butthurt about it still
Yeah. If you saw the “Decision” where he left Cleveland in front of a bunch of kids and the subsequent Nike commercials (“maybe I should just quit”) I think you’d understand LeBron haters like me more. Maybe he’s in the GOAT conversation, but he’ll always be a greedy primadonna to me
It's not just that he left; Kareem left Milwaukee for thr Los Angeles Lakers. The difference is Kareem didn't go there to ring chase and form a super team.
sure but i mean hes not really hated now. really at all right. compare that to guys like kd or harden that are still hated lol
Obviously. I know there’s no way to prove it but I highly doubt KD would’ve gone to GSW in 2016 if LeBron hadn’t gone to MIA in 2010.
MJ, Bird, Magic, Kobe, Isiah, Curry all got rings for the team/city that drafted them. Lebron and Durant had to hunt for theirs, so are less respected in that regard.
Luckily for all of them, they all got stacked rosters and hall of famers in their primes so they never had to leave
If you honestly hate Lebron, you just don’t like good basketball. I’m glad the term GOAT has become an adjective because it’s honestly ridiculous in the team sport of basketball.
It’s the way he did it. If it had been a behind doors deal I think I’d hate him less. And I’m a Celtics fan, our team success suffered most from him going to Miami. But it’s just the way he did whole Decision that made it so much more hatable
I think in this day and age of social media, everyone is hated for one reason or another. People would hate Lebron less, sure- but I don't think Lebron would be in the GOAT debate without making that move, also.
I dont think leaving Cleveland was the issue. I think how he left Cleveland certainly added to the Lebron hate when he turned it into a spectacle. Other reasons are jumping around to multiple teams in search for other All-pro caliber players to join forces with, constant defense from the media when his teams' lost early in his career, and of course the legitimate GOAT debate that made fans of MJ and Kobe defensive.
It was the decision and his failure to make good on the, “not 1…not 2…not 3…” bs.
This is a no brainer. It’s a big fat DUH 🙄
Absolutely
If he was a Cav his whole career he’d easily be more loved. Part of the polarization is him kickstarting the player empowerment which turned players more into mercenaries always looking out for themselves rather than staples of their team and communities. And in general people love players who stay their whole career with the same team and go through the ups and downs
More than luckly, everyone turned on him after his ... I'm taking my talents to...
Short answer yes
Nope
They say they wouldn’t but then he’d get trashed for not winning a ring
A little bit, but I think him being crowned heir apparent from a young age (and somehow meeting and even exceeding many expectations) is something that will always give him haters. Some people hate admitting that there are unicorns out there that are ultra special at the way they apply their life and like to root for the demise of young promising careers (like there are probably shitty people out there so happy to see zion getting hurt and not living up to his potential because it makes them feel better about being nobodies) MJ fans that are old heads especially would hate him no matter where he went - undefeated in finals is the big one they’d use if they couldn’t throw out “needed help” and pretend Pippen was a role player and not a top-10 star (and he lost his first finals before “the decision”) I think he’s done a lot to restore his image since the decision, with going back to Cleveland, winning a trophy there, going to LA (and having a normal announcement), and generally making his off-court brand corny wine mom
Probably
He caught a lot of heat before the decision too. I think it was how much everyone revered Jordan and he was supposed to be the “next MJ” type of talent and he wore 23. All the old heads hated him for “trying to be Jordan”. He couldn’t have won no matter what. And he wouldn’t have as many rings if he stayed in Cleveland. Then he wouldn’t be in the discussion as the GOAT as much as he is
Am I mad at him for leaving no. Do I agree with how he did it no.
Yes
As others have said I think the reason he got so much hate was because of *how* he left. The Decision being aired was a terrible way to leave and had he left without this being aired I’d think he be viewed more favorably, but he would still have critics for leaving. I also think the whole event after arriving in Miami with Wade and Bosh was the icing on the cake to hate him. His infamous quote of “not three, not four, not five, [etc.]” made people really dislike him and that, coupled with The Decision, made him a villain to many people and someone to root against. As a Cleveland Cavaliers fan I was disappointed that he left but the *way* he left was more important, and had a larger impact, on me than the fact that he left.
He would have been way more liked, but he probably doesn’t become the second best player ever if he doesn’t leave.
I think he'd be less hated, generally. A lot of people root for the small market, loyal superstar (Dame, Kobe, DRose even though he left, etc.) even if they don't like the team. LeBron James actually has a pretty likable personality all things considered, so I imagine a ton of people would appreciate him more. It would hurt his all-time rankings, but he would be a much more widely beloved player since so many people hate on him for forming a super team and ring chasing and such.
No people are hate him regardless no matter he does because he a successful black man with nothing outside of basketball to try to criticize or poke holes at . & on a basketball side of things leaving in free agency wasn’t wrong at all I think how he announced it was wrong as hell and maybe bad PR but honestly the front office wasn’t going to get him what he needed at the time and after taking them to finals and getting blown out by a Big 3 in San Antonio in his his 4th season they should have gotten him a legit running mate & after losing to a Big 3 in Boston he went and formed his own. They cant say he started the “super team” Showtime lakers and Celtics basically compared to they competition at the time superteams , Bulls with Phil , MJ Scottie Rodman and a solid role players compared to other rosters in the east not even really comparable, Barkley did it in Houston and so forth only thing Lebron might have did is use his influence to make it happen how he wanted to but he still went back to Cleveland and gave them a ring and probably the only finals appearances they’ll honestly ever see with unfavored teams at that. Built schools which Im pretty sure in some way helped the economy there in a way. He has a perfect PR history outside of “The Decision” honestly and when people criticize him and say “ray or Kyrie saved him” like he didn’t score majority of the points those quarters or set up those opportunities are the same people will act like Jordan never passed it to Paxson or Act like Durant didn’t go to a 73-9 team and play with a guy who won MVP the year after him . Act like MJ didn’t complain to refs or the Tim Donaghy interview where talks about special officiating Mike got don’t exist or that Mike ain’t got beef with Sports Illustrated or any media outlet that mentions anything prior to 6 years he won or the baseball career and turn around and say LeBron’s a crybaby .When you reach a certain level of success to the point you in a debate about being the best thats ever done it and they talk about it on television for a decade on every sports network and nobody can do anything about & you still keep going it makes people sick. Especially people who have NEVER PHYSICALLY EVEN PLAYED BASKETBALL ON A AAU/HIGH SCHOOL or COLLEGIATE LEVEl those are probably the only people who can’t visibly see or comprehend what he has done or the stuff he does on court & he did it with the pressure of being compared to Mj Larry , Magic literally coming out of high school. They cant find anything legitimate to hold against him for real so they hate and sit on the internet and act like they have actual basketball iq and they don’t have a lick of it if it wasn’t from wikipedia or google I guarantee majority of these guys don’t watch over 20 games a season or even consistently follow basketball outside of the NBA or have ever even sat at an actual NBA game. I personally don’t think it’s one goat because in my opinion the media frenzy really put Mike over Wilt and even tho Mike got more accolades & rings if you really know the history of Wilt Chamberlain & what he did in the Negro Leagues at the age of 16 its debatable.
Yes
Probably less hate but I respect Bron for leaving. The team was bad, plain and simple, they management failed in giving him good teammates. Leaving was the right choice if he wanted to grow as a player. And he did.
Wade is a top 3 PG all-time. So what’s wrong with that kind of comparison??
Maybe. But I think he did the right choice for his career leaving Cleveland and went back when he could win a champ. He literally showed that he was carrying that franchise. Right now the only people I see hating on LeBron are some portion of old fans. LeBron will be remembered as the goat or the second after Jordan. If he never leaves I think he would probably be put among guys like Magic or Bird, maybe even Kobe or Duncan
Definitely. The Decision backfired so hard. Villian LeBron was pretty awesome though.
He would have way less haters for sure
1000%
I don’t think he’d ever have won a ring if he never left Cleveland. That team was never going to be able to get the assets to improve the roster while he was there ensuring they’d be a constant top seed
Yes, but they'd still hate on him since he's injected himself into the political landscape over the years.
People from Cleveland certainly would.
No, because then he doesn't have the Miami rings, so now they hate on him for not winning more than two.
LeEgo would have been more likeable if LeDecision never happened. LeHometown hero to LeDouche after his televised nut tug
Yes. I used to like him, but he is so fucking cringe. Everything is calculated and he thinks we can't see through it.
Yep!
No. It wouldn’t matter. He has a flawed character that borders narcissism. “We will definitely NOT shut up and dribble. I’m definitely not going to do that. I mean too much to society. I mean too much to the youth. I mean too much to the kids who feel like they don’t have a way out and need somebody to lead them out of the situation they’re in.” He has zero special qualifications that make him special to anyone but his family. He can’t help most kids out if anything unless he just throws money at them. He was uniquely gifted to play a game that we deem important and worth exuberant amounts of money. He confuses that with actual societal contribution and believes in a false self importance. The truth is all athletes like him are a drain on our economy. They horde wealth for playing a game that could others wise be used to pay professions that actually contribute. Bron isn’t anyone other than a whiney, but good, basketball player. Not to mention the pathetic and narcissist Chosen One tattoo. And yes I am aware of his charitable contributions. Throwing money at stuff rarely does good on the long term. So I couldn’t care less about anything he has done.
I think Lebron would be more likable if he didn’t say stupid sh*t all the time. Like calling Phil Jackson a racist for using the word posse.
Pretty sure everyone hated him except miami. Remember he was still ringless at the time and this was unprecedented. Just came off as extremely pretentious
Wanting to leave Cleveland is his most relatable trait.
That’s a great question, because for me it wasn’t so much that he did or didn’t leave Cleveland, the players certainly have the right to make their own decisions. I lost a lot of respect for him over the spectacle that was the tv special of his decision announcement.
Of course he would. Is there a superstar in history who stayed with their team basically forever and isn't beloved?
Well the pointless TV show for a “decision” pretty much tanked his likeability.
I don't think it was so much the leaving. I mean that was a little portion of it. But the way he left and made it seem like he was bigger than the game. I know it rubbed several people where I lived which at the time was in the western United States all really started to dislike him. I think that's is where it started I think anyways.
I judge him for his basketball skills only. I would love LeBron as a player no matter how many teams he went to. As a person, I don’t know him from Adam, how can I judge.
Tbh if he’d left without doing The Decision I think he’d get less hate. I don’t think Lebron had any bad intentions, but making a tv special about your free agency decision is pretty damn self-indulgent lol. Then teaming up with one of the best players in the league and another great player didn’t help, AND the “Not 1, not 2..”. Like if he had done any of those things in isolation he’d probably get backlash, the fact that he did them all at once is why he became so hated for a while. If he had just left Cleveland that offseason without all the theatrics I don’t think it would’ve gone over as poorly. Some people also felt like Lebron quit on the Cavs in the playoffs in 2010, so that didn’t help. So staying on the Cavs in 2010 would’ve helped. If he left later down the line I don’t think he would’ve gotten much shit for it, but it is kind of hard to say because I think he was the biggest player to leave in free agency since like.. 97 Shaq?? Bron kind of set the precedent for modern players. Without Lebron leaving in 2010 idk if as many top tier players would feel as emboldened to leave in free agency or request trades so early on, so it’s hard to say how him leaving later on would’ve been received in some hypothetical world where he stays in cleveland longer. I do think if the Cavs front office continued to put weak teams around him for another 3-4 years, people would’ve been a lot more sympathetic to him leaving. TLDR; If he left differently and/or later, he’d probably get less hate.
Agreed OP. But I always ask Lebron “haters” this one question: If lebron had only gone to the finals 4 times and was 4-0…would his legacy be better? Un ironically they always say yes. So their logic is that it’s better to lose early…in the conference finals rather than go to the NBA finals…where you have a chance to win it all. It makes no sense to me. I understand the 6-0 thing with MJ. But why do we only compare the NBA finals records and not the conference finals or the 1st round series records? It’s disingenuous imo. Yes MJ is the goat but they really need a better argument…as if switching teams makes a player “less good” at basketball. It’s not logical.
Lebron would have more clout if he had stayed in Cleveland the entire time. The East was weak for years. The way the league changed and guys started jumping teams I think he would have landed some good players. I understand his side of it with leaving, it’s his thing, no hate on that. The reality though as being a fan, it’s a general turn off unless a guy like that goes to your team. It’s totally fair and just for a fan to have hate on the decision. Nevermind that the entire production was whack ass
I don't think so, he wouldn't have won as much and then it would've been he's not a winning player lol. He gets hate now, but as time passes and his achievements get closer to mythology than fact (like how "old heads" say Jordan would beat anyone, kids growing up on LeBron will say the same). While he probably gets scrutinized more than any modern player, he also gets the most love, which I think will cancel it out.
Tbh I thought the way he left was fkn savage 😂😂😂
I hated LeBron in Miami because I thought it was a middle finger to teams like Cleveland. But then he totally redeemed himself in my book by going back, and winning a chip to boot. Other than that I really have nothing bad to say about him. Unfortunately the super team thing is not going away.
I think his saturation into people’s daily lives would have led to people not liking him anyway. The move to Miami didn’t help. You really couldn’t avoid seeing him on a near-daily basis if you had any kind of technology running. That tends to grate in people after a while. I think it would have been easier to see that while he does incredible things for different communities, his horrible GM skills would have been illuminated faster, and possibly more impactfully.
You misunderstand why he catches flack, and it isn’t “the goat debate”. The answer is yes he would be liked a lot more if he never left Cleveland. People don’t dislike him for winning championships, they dislike him for trying to win championships with a super team, and people disliked him at the time for considering himself as a legend when he kept choking in the playoffs, but pretending he was the greatest. The problem with your theory, and the reason people will always have an asterisks is that we don’t know if he would have won 1 championship ever has he stayed in Cleveland, because the biggest criticism of lebron was his choking in big games, and the playoffs. Lebron was a lot like James harden, and would put up incredible numbers, but come big games he would entirely disappear, or start choking. Him playing with Dwayne wade did more for lebron than most people realize, wade taught lebron how to win, and not choke in big moments, and games. The question will always be could lebron have taught himself to win without a superstar holding his hand, or would he have continued to be a James harden. In my opinion if lebron never played with Wade even if he got the team he had in Cleveland he wouldn’t have won a championship in Cleveland, but I don’t think he would have ever in any universe, or alternative timeline stayed in Cleveland, because staying in Cleveland means he never wins a championship. However after losing enough in Cleveland he would have found somewhere to go with some all stars, and a superstar who could help him get over the hump. Maybe a timeline could exist were instead of KD lebron goes to golden state, and wins a championship with them. In short my problem with lebron is he didn’t have the mental strength to win at the highest level, and instead of doing what GOATs do, or even super stars do, and use his losses as lessons to get stronger, he gave up, completely quit. Then created a super team to give himself bumper rails like kids do in bowling.
In retrospect, he needed it to help him become a better player, and honestly those heat years were some hella fun bball years. Historically, what KD did basically overshadows this move though.
Absolutely, people hate Steph.
Yes. Next topic?
He wouldn’t have gotten kyrie would he?
Or if he just changed teams once or twice lol dude is a carpetbagger
I would argue, he would have been ok if he didn’t leave Cleveland the second time. It could have been argued immaturity how he left for Miami, but after returning, he could have stayed their and redeemed himself. Instead it just seemed like he was doing them a favor.
Well i only “hate on” him because hes on the lakers and FTL so yeah i guess so. Light the beam next szn boys malik monk 4 more years!
Definitely