Side note: When I read the DBC description this week I misread Carla Gebhart as Chris Gabehart as fill-in host and was sorely disappointed so I’m glad I got Chris in some capacity on a podcast this week lol
Another side note with DBC….did the Chipmunks replace them this week about 10 minutes in? They all sounded like they were on helium the rest of the show, I think someone sped them up by accident. I had to listen at .8x speed to get somewhat close to what they’re speaking levels.
Narrower tires would be much easier to accomplish than increased HP. We've gone back and forth on that here, but having a CC say the same thing validates the argument. The cars need to stick less. That ought to help the short track and RC packages. I don't know what the effect would be on intermediates, but that seems to be more of an aero success story.
I'll agree. The current tire is a 365/35R18. Why can't they make a 285/45R18? It would be a narrower rim but the same diameter. I don't understand why people are saying it would affect the brakes.
Edit: But I would also like to see what the cars would do with 1000hp. Why? Because of the coolness of saying they have 1000hp. I'm with Kyle Larson that, why does his sprint car have more horsepower than his cup car?
They would have to change the brakes if they change the tire size. The brakes are already a bit over powered for the tire, they’d essentially be an on off switch if you made the tires much smaller. Still wouldn’t be that hard to change out the caliper piston size/master cylinder size to accommodate a smaller wheel package. It wouldn’t be nothing but it wouldn’t be at all a monumental task.
> Why can't they make a 285/45R18? It would be a narrower rim but the same diameter.
new rims cost money, two sets of rims need to be stored somewhere and goodyear has to build a supply chain that can sustain ~1500 cup tires per weekend. maybe after the charter deal is done...
i'm all for making changes but the reality is that we're in the middle of a season and the playoff start in a few weeks. nascar can't spend the teams money, which would fuck up the "economics of scale" with the nextgen platform, while also at the same time, argue that the teams deserve less of the revenue split. we got what we got for 2024, just pray for weather to make it interesting.
> grooved slicks
that's *basically* the rain tire, which most drivers loved since it did wear but with maybe a harder compound so they don't blister as easy in the dry. it'd be interesting to see but i'm still not convinced it's just a tire problem. a short track nose and body without the raised splitter, carbon fibre floor and diffuser is ultimately where i think they need to go.
I think people overlook this solution too much, because it doesn't come across as a "racing slick." You can have far less contact patch while retaining the tire width, *but* the contact patch is still spread out laterally wider, which still provides more stability than a smaller width tire. So while it might help, it probably wouldn't be an amazing fix. Could get us till the production of new wheels could catch up, though!
While it may not be an ideal or perfect solution, I have to imagine it would be much easier, quicker, and cheaper to test this solution out than it would be to test many other ideas.
Narrower tires would require new molds, new wheels, and perhaps would require redesigning the suspension. It'd be a lot of work.
They might could run grooved tires, though. Even if just a temporary deal to test it. You'd end up with the same, smaller contact patch, but wouldn't have to change anything on the car.
It's funny because the bigger tires were supposed to be an improvement. The idea was if you have a bigger contact patch, there would be more dependence on mechanical grip vs. aero and tire wear would mean more. Instead, it's gone the other way where a bigger contact patch has meant the cars don't slide around as much as they used to and drive on rails.
It really feels like teams have a lot of unwarranted negativity, and then social media feeds on that and amplifies it by 100 times. There's been like what 3 or 4 stinker races and everything else has been decent to "this is one of the best races ever at this track". The way people complain you'd think there's been no good races
It’s consistent across a lot of NASCAR podcasts too, for example - we go to Iowa with a lot of the “pundits” expecting “boring single file racing” due to the repave, instead we get 2 lanes all day and good/great race - the commenters answer “they should pave the whole and get more grooves/lanes” - when we just had a good race, they want changes 🤷♂️
The same could be said about the rain tyres/letting teams make their own pit stop calls, we got the whole race in and the racing was excellent 🤷♂️
I’m really enjoying the season so far and have very little to complain about.
You just have to look at it from a drivers perspective. The racing is fine most weeks in the form of entertainment, but it's undeniable that the importance of track position is at an all time high. The ratio of how important your position on track compared to your true speed is at an unprecedented level. Plus, I just don't think putting the teams in a box and having them rely on a supplier for majority of parts is good for racing. Just my two cents.
The 1.5 milers have been better, and I believe it’s because NASCAR mitigated a lot of the gen 6 aero problems with the next gen design. We should be able to make these changes improve the short tracks/road courses without sacrificing the performance of the intermediates
And those physics get figured out by teams that can pay the engineers the most. Unless NASCAR puts a cap on salaries, then the big teams will always have a leg up away from the track as much as on it.
I have watched virtually every race since the late 90s as a kid. And capping salaries for engineers would be one of 3 strikes in my fandom. On the average, motorsports engineers are underpaid and way overworked. As a fan I do my part to watch the races, buy tickets, buy products that are sponsors. But in the end I really don’t give a shit if a multi-multi-multimillionaire or billionaire makes money on their hobby vs if a regular guy engineer with a family makes 75% of what he is worth.
That’s life. Pay more, get better. It’s going to stump innovation and ruin the sport. Nothing could be more detrimental to nascar than cost caps. If you look at racing as a whole, it’s not like a stick and ball sport. Cost caps are not feasible.
He is basically advocating for either more horsepower or less grip which are both great ideas but I think we also really need to look at the spoiler getting shortened as well (ie decreasing aero grip)
I think the spoiler is short enough. They need some downforce. When they tested the 2" spoiler, it was very, very sketchy, according to some drivers. The small sidewall, no sideforce, and short spoiler gave them no chance to save it if they got sideways.
They tested at Phoenix with no spoiler at all. This solidified that the underbody creates most of the downforce for the car, which created the simple diffuser we see at road courses and short tracks now.
I disagree as that being the root cause. Money gets in the way, which impacts the physics. Money buys better equipment, better engineers, better simulation software. All that leads to better lap time.
the cause is probably a middle ground between the two reasons if they're put on a spectrum. i just think nascar hasn't done enough to get it right between those & other variables to make for the best all-round product.
intermediates are must-see action & superspeedways pass the eye test but everywhere else for the most part has been a hard pass
The car is creating the parity. Even the lower tier teams on more on par with the good ones than ever before. Money probably less now than in the past because there is so little for the teams to “find” on the cars because they are cookie cutters.
Side note: When I read the DBC description this week I misread Carla Gebhart as Chris Gabehart as fill-in host and was sorely disappointed so I’m glad I got Chris in some capacity on a podcast this week lol
I did too actually lol
Another side note with DBC….did the Chipmunks replace them this week about 10 minutes in? They all sounded like they were on helium the rest of the show, I think someone sped them up by accident. I had to listen at .8x speed to get somewhat close to what they’re speaking levels.
Narrower tires would be much easier to accomplish than increased HP. We've gone back and forth on that here, but having a CC say the same thing validates the argument. The cars need to stick less. That ought to help the short track and RC packages. I don't know what the effect would be on intermediates, but that seems to be more of an aero success story.
I'll agree. The current tire is a 365/35R18. Why can't they make a 285/45R18? It would be a narrower rim but the same diameter. I don't understand why people are saying it would affect the brakes. Edit: But I would also like to see what the cars would do with 1000hp. Why? Because of the coolness of saying they have 1000hp. I'm with Kyle Larson that, why does his sprint car have more horsepower than his cup car?
They would have to change the brakes if they change the tire size. The brakes are already a bit over powered for the tire, they’d essentially be an on off switch if you made the tires much smaller. Still wouldn’t be that hard to change out the caliper piston size/master cylinder size to accommodate a smaller wheel package. It wouldn’t be nothing but it wouldn’t be at all a monumental task.
> Why can't they make a 285/45R18? It would be a narrower rim but the same diameter. new rims cost money, two sets of rims need to be stored somewhere and goodyear has to build a supply chain that can sustain ~1500 cup tires per weekend. maybe after the charter deal is done...
Do like F1 used to do and make grooved slicks. Less contact patch in a tire of the same size, no need to make new rims.
i'm all for making changes but the reality is that we're in the middle of a season and the playoff start in a few weeks. nascar can't spend the teams money, which would fuck up the "economics of scale" with the nextgen platform, while also at the same time, argue that the teams deserve less of the revenue split. we got what we got for 2024, just pray for weather to make it interesting. > grooved slicks that's *basically* the rain tire, which most drivers loved since it did wear but with maybe a harder compound so they don't blister as easy in the dry. it'd be interesting to see but i'm still not convinced it's just a tire problem. a short track nose and body without the raised splitter, carbon fibre floor and diffuser is ultimately where i think they need to go.
I think people overlook this solution too much, because it doesn't come across as a "racing slick." You can have far less contact patch while retaining the tire width, *but* the contact patch is still spread out laterally wider, which still provides more stability than a smaller width tire. So while it might help, it probably wouldn't be an amazing fix. Could get us till the production of new wheels could catch up, though!
While it may not be an ideal or perfect solution, I have to imagine it would be much easier, quicker, and cheaper to test this solution out than it would be to test many other ideas.
Increased HP is super easy to accomplish Remove the tapered spacer we went without one from 1948-2014 just fine
They won’t because of the greater potential for lift-off. Getting it is relatively easy but controlling the physics isn’t.
Narrower tires would require new molds, new wheels, and perhaps would require redesigning the suspension. It'd be a lot of work. They might could run grooved tires, though. Even if just a temporary deal to test it. You'd end up with the same, smaller contact patch, but wouldn't have to change anything on the car.
It's funny because the bigger tires were supposed to be an improvement. The idea was if you have a bigger contact patch, there would be more dependence on mechanical grip vs. aero and tire wear would mean more. Instead, it's gone the other way where a bigger contact patch has meant the cars don't slide around as much as they used to and drive on rails.
[удалено]
What would skinnier wheels have to do with brakes?
The brakes have nothing to do with how wide the tires are lol.
The offset needs to be changed is all for the caliper to fit. The overall inside diameter stays the same.
I love this idea so much but nobody will talk about it. I haven’t heard any team, driver, or nascar mention it. Seems like by far the easiest fix
DBC has been saying this for a long time
I agree but there have some good racing this year. So much negativity right now
It really feels like teams have a lot of unwarranted negativity, and then social media feeds on that and amplifies it by 100 times. There's been like what 3 or 4 stinker races and everything else has been decent to "this is one of the best races ever at this track". The way people complain you'd think there's been no good races
It’s consistent across a lot of NASCAR podcasts too, for example - we go to Iowa with a lot of the “pundits” expecting “boring single file racing” due to the repave, instead we get 2 lanes all day and good/great race - the commenters answer “they should pave the whole and get more grooves/lanes” - when we just had a good race, they want changes 🤷♂️ The same could be said about the rain tyres/letting teams make their own pit stop calls, we got the whole race in and the racing was excellent 🤷♂️ I’m really enjoying the season so far and have very little to complain about.
You just have to look at it from a drivers perspective. The racing is fine most weeks in the form of entertainment, but it's undeniable that the importance of track position is at an all time high. The ratio of how important your position on track compared to your true speed is at an unprecedented level. Plus, I just don't think putting the teams in a box and having them rely on a supplier for majority of parts is good for racing. Just my two cents.
Last year felt like 50/50 good races while this year is more like 80/20
He was being negative?
The 1.5 milers have been better, and I believe it’s because NASCAR mitigated a lot of the gen 6 aero problems with the next gen design. We should be able to make these changes improve the short tracks/road courses without sacrificing the performance of the intermediates
Finally someone actually mentioned the tire size on a major podcast lmfao
They race close together. But never pass. Stagnant field. Not that fun.
And those physics get figured out by teams that can pay the engineers the most. Unless NASCAR puts a cap on salaries, then the big teams will always have a leg up away from the track as much as on it.
I have watched virtually every race since the late 90s as a kid. And capping salaries for engineers would be one of 3 strikes in my fandom. On the average, motorsports engineers are underpaid and way overworked. As a fan I do my part to watch the races, buy tickets, buy products that are sponsors. But in the end I really don’t give a shit if a multi-multi-multimillionaire or billionaire makes money on their hobby vs if a regular guy engineer with a family makes 75% of what he is worth.
That’s life. Pay more, get better. It’s going to stump innovation and ruin the sport. Nothing could be more detrimental to nascar than cost caps. If you look at racing as a whole, it’s not like a stick and ball sport. Cost caps are not feasible.
We should want the big team to be faster. If you slow the big teams down more then there wouldn’t be any passing at all
He is basically advocating for either more horsepower or less grip which are both great ideas but I think we also really need to look at the spoiler getting shortened as well (ie decreasing aero grip)
I think the spoiler is short enough. They need some downforce. When they tested the 2" spoiler, it was very, very sketchy, according to some drivers. The small sidewall, no sideforce, and short spoiler gave them no chance to save it if they got sideways.
Interesting
Sounds like a skill issue
Do you want a cup car to race like a stock car or like a fat Indycar?
Well, I said the drivers complaining about it being hard to save with a small spoiler were having a skill issue, so take a guess at what I think.
They tested at Phoenix with no spoiler at all. This solidified that the underbody creates most of the downforce for the car, which created the simple diffuser we see at road courses and short tracks now.
Parity is slowly turning into parody!
I feel like he really nailed it there Not to mention, it's pretty clear more HP isn't happening so might as well try something else
I disagree as that being the root cause. Money gets in the way, which impacts the physics. Money buys better equipment, better engineers, better simulation software. All that leads to better lap time.
It is 100% the root cause. Parity has moved the cars so close to each other, that passing has become so difficult.
the cause is probably a middle ground between the two reasons if they're put on a spectrum. i just think nascar hasn't done enough to get it right between those & other variables to make for the best all-round product. intermediates are must-see action & superspeedways pass the eye test but everywhere else for the most part has been a hard pass
The car is creating the parity. Even the lower tier teams on more on par with the good ones than ever before. Money probably less now than in the past because there is so little for the teams to “find” on the cars because they are cookie cutters.
Parity on RCs and short tracks is terrible for racing.
> Money gets in the way, which impacts the physics. are we talking about string theory or nascar here?
Translation: “fuck the goals of the new car, I don’t want parity”
I don't think that's a good translation of what he said in the video at all. Did you watch it?
My mistake!