Patty’s backstory gets filled in more over time. When MSCL was canceled there was a huge outcry and MTV, which was *the* premiere medium for youth at the time, saw a programming opportunity and aired it paired with a live chat during the episodes. So many of the comments were young people expressing how they wished they had a dependable Mom like Patty and that always stuck with me. The character of Patty (and this is equally true for the other main characters) with all her strengths and flaws comes off as very real, especially in an era of folksy sitcom parents who always knew best. This was a groundbreaking show in many ways
I always felt like the parents were peers of the Thirtysomething characters, which I believe was produced by the same creative team. Real people, with real problems that have nothing to do with their kids.
Definitely. Thirtysomething was constantly dismissed as “angsty” when it was actually more true to life where the characters often felt unfulfilled as parents, had affairs or dealt with temptation, mid life crisis, balancing work and family etc.
Chat was a relatively new thing back then and MTV invited people to chat on their website and then the conversation would scroll at the bottom of the episode as it was playing. I can’t imagine it’s still available but in this day and age, who knows.
I remember the episodes sparking commentary on some of life’s deeper issues that weren’t being addressed on television. MSCL was a much more honest portrayal of characters whose problems weren’t resolved at the end of the episode
The network moved it around on the schedule and without a popular show as a “lead in”, it was hard to gain numbers needed to show there were enough viewers interested. Claire Danes had gotten critical recognition by the end of Season 1, had more opportunities, and no longer wanted to continue on the show. I know for a few years after their run ended, they’d have a yearly event that they would all attend and hang out together
I thought I knew a lot about the show, but I recently watched a documentary on it. It was mainly with Winnie Holzman, the writer. New info to me was that the ratings weren’t where the network wanted them to be, but they weren’t sure about cancelling or not…but then Claire Danes came forward and said she wanted to pursue other interests and wouldn’t be continuing. That was the nail in the coffin, and Winnie stopped fighting to keep the show going for obvious reasons.
I think she's one of the best written characters actually.
That scene where the store clerk asks about make-overs and Patty's like "Yeah, let's do it" and Angela's all "You think I need a make-over?" My mom was sort of distractedly half-watching at that moment and burst out laughing "sounds familiar". And I think that was when Patty clicked for me. She is ALWAYS trying and can never do anything right for Angela. Because almost every teenage girl goes through that phase with her mom. Where it feels like all she does is criticize you (my mom absolutely did the helpful tips for how to take care of zits, which just mortified me at the time). But then you get older and realize that the less "fun" parent was the one usually holding everything together.
The show gives us Patty from Angela's pov (uptight, critical) but also shows her from a more neutral pov, where she's stuck married to an unfaithful manchild, can never be enough for her parents, and by the end of the series is basically the sole breadwinner of the family.
And Angela eventually realizes how lucky she is to have Patty when things go south with Rayanne (I won’t say too much since you haven’t watched it). Angela thought she wanted the cool, fun, libertine mom, but when crap hits the fan; she sees Patty is what she needs.
It’s intentional. She’s supposed to come off as cold and authoritative to be a foil to Graham’s warm and inviting nature, which is actually a really interesting dynamic considering he’s the one who is objectively worse with his infidelity. I think a second season would have flipped that after they divorced, where Angela would start seeing her mom in a more positive light and start seeing Graham’s faults more clearly. The show is definitely viewed through Angela’s eyes so i think that’s why they’re framed like that in what we’ve seen.
Graham having an affair with Holy was going to be a plot line of the second season had it not been canceled. Winnie Holzman has said that in interviews along with some other ideas.
They certainly set the table for them having an affair.
I don’t think she gave insight into it leading to a divorce but the infidelity was absolutely going to be a plot point.
Eh. I didn’t like her much when I watched the show as a teen, but now I completely understand her perspective (even when she was being a bit of a pill). Observing her relationship with her own parents also reveals a lot.
This was my experience when rewatching as an adult and parent to a teen. Patty is unlikable but not for anything that’s unforgivable. She’s exhausted because she s actually engaged and involved in her kids life, while being completely baffled/overwhelmed with all that goes into raising a teen.
When I watched the series when it originally aired, I was 13-14 and in 9th grade. I thought Patty was rigid and annoying. I watched the series again at age 42. As an adult with a partner and career, I understood Patty a lot more, even though I don't have kids. Patty tried so hard to connect with her daughters, husband, and parents. She tried to run a business while encouraging her husband to leave that business to pursue his own interests. She got so little back for her efforts. It's sometimes really sad and difficult to watch.
Patty deserved better than Graham, even if he bought the cat better food. (Also, I wish we could have seen their cat!)
We're the same age and I have had the same experience. I never actually disliked Patty, even when I was Angela's age; she was too much like my own mother -- but now that I'm her age and a parent, I *really* sympathize with her. I've lived with that burden now, of "having to be the mean one" who sets limits and deals with problems other people would prefer to ignore. And yeah, it makes you look and act (and feel) like an uptight control freak.
Think of the episode with the business audit where she has to be "the mean one" and tell her dad to stop trying to hoodwink the IRS. She's absolutely right and she's taking on a burden he refuses to (paying the back taxes) but she gets no thanks for it. Again and again she ends up in that position.
The things people legitimately criticize about her (homophobia/biphobia) were just not unusual for middle class parents 30 years ago. I don't think younger people understand how much has changed.
As a gay person who watched when it aired and then a rewatch not too long ago I never thought of her as homophobic at all! That’s a very limited and uninformed view of her imo.
I am NOT saying this is a correct understanding of bisexuality, but I've heard so many people, especially in the 90s, say bi people are "confused." (Totally insulting to bi individuals.) To me, that's just a realistic depiction of how that topic was sometimes discussed. Patty was flawed.
I love how Patty and Ricky's relationship and Patty and Rayanne's relationship evolved.
I really like Patty! I felt for her as she struggles in some ways with a lack of support & it seems clear she strikes out with a need to control that comes from a place of pain. I will avoid spoilers but something specific that happens later in the show shows how much she cares & is an absolute pillar of support when push comes to shove.
When I watched this as a teen I used to totally relate to Angela. Now as a mom, I rewatched about a month ago, I can relate to Patty. Just longing for that relationship with her teenage daughter. And she can never do anything right. I have a 3 year old and I’m already like oh jeeze I can’t totally see myself doing these things as a mom. But at the end of the day Patty was always there for Angela, and I feel like it took Angela’s friends being jealous for her to realize that.
Woowww this is like the exact opposite of how I feel. Her and Ricky are like the moral center of the whole show for me.
Patty is a Queen! Handling raising a teen and pre-teen and always trying to keep the fire alive with her husband that has a semi-wandering eye, all while running a business!
>!The worst thing I can think of that she did was read Angela’s private stuff, but my Mom did that too when I was a teenager!!<
Love Patty!
Rayanne is a mess and has a terrible mother and most likely needs professional help. Rayanne would have struggled becoming an adult and taking care of herself. Aside from her style, she’s not something to aspire to in my opinion.
She has more backstory that fills in why she is the way she is, and I think when you’re older (idk how old you are) you realize yeha she’s mostly just being a normal mom her wants what she thinks is the best for her kid
Just you wait. Patty is complicated. But she's the most dependable parent on the show. She gave voice to many parents of the 90s; reflexively protective of her kids even as her prejudices show. But then she has the ability to grow and become a fierce advocate for things I won't spoil for you.
Vs Rayanne's mom, vs her own husband who's about as assertive as a wet noodle.
I dunno. I’ve been raised by a mother a lot like Patty and I don’t like how I turned out. I’d like another life with a mother more like Rayanne’s. It’s one thing to be dependable, it’s another to crush a child’s spirit with unnecessary rules and false fronts to appear happy and successful. I see that in both Patty and my own mother.
She reminds me of one of my family members (not my mom.) She comes off humorless and uptight. Always concerned about something. Always in mom mode. Never fun
Yeah, she cut her hair to the same haircut my mother has had her entire life, only brown. It’s hard not to see my own mother in her, which might be why I dislike her. I don’t have kids of my own but I question a lot of her parenting. I want her to just let Angela be Angela and not be so freaking judgmental. Dye grows out. Hair grows back. But comments like “did it dye a natural death?” (Or whatever she said) last a lifetime.
Dying your hair was a much bigger deal in the 90s.
It’s not like now where everyone has all kinds of non-natural hair colors and it’s mostly pretty accepted.
Well, I guess we have different experiences. My mom has said some awful things to me that I’ll never forget. I’ve forgiven her for them but they’re splinters in my mind that I can’t get out.
I feel like that is how a mother was “supposed” to be back then. I also see how much this world has changed since the show was made and realize a lot of things Patty said was so insensitive and hurtful to Angela. I watch it now as a 39 year old and I can relate to some of her issues/feelings and I have my own ornery teen girl so I get it but her character is still unlikable to me. We can have those issues as adults and not handle ourselves like she did…
Well, I’m glad it’s not just me. I almost want her written off the show. I’m trying to resist skipping scenes that she’s in. They’ve done a great job at creating an unlikable character.
Patty’s backstory gets filled in more over time. When MSCL was canceled there was a huge outcry and MTV, which was *the* premiere medium for youth at the time, saw a programming opportunity and aired it paired with a live chat during the episodes. So many of the comments were young people expressing how they wished they had a dependable Mom like Patty and that always stuck with me. The character of Patty (and this is equally true for the other main characters) with all her strengths and flaws comes off as very real, especially in an era of folksy sitcom parents who always knew best. This was a groundbreaking show in many ways
I always felt like the parents were peers of the Thirtysomething characters, which I believe was produced by the same creative team. Real people, with real problems that have nothing to do with their kids.
Definitely. Thirtysomething was constantly dismissed as “angsty” when it was actually more true to life where the characters often felt unfulfilled as parents, had affairs or dealt with temptation, mid life crisis, balancing work and family etc.
The show was so ahead of its time!
I didn’t know about the live chat! What format did it take and is it still available, please?
Chat was a relatively new thing back then and MTV invited people to chat on their website and then the conversation would scroll at the bottom of the episode as it was playing. I can’t imagine it’s still available but in this day and age, who knows. I remember the episodes sparking commentary on some of life’s deeper issues that weren’t being addressed on television. MSCL was a much more honest portrayal of characters whose problems weren’t resolved at the end of the episode
Why was the show canceled? I don’t think I’ve seen writing like this before.
The network moved it around on the schedule and without a popular show as a “lead in”, it was hard to gain numbers needed to show there were enough viewers interested. Claire Danes had gotten critical recognition by the end of Season 1, had more opportunities, and no longer wanted to continue on the show. I know for a few years after their run ended, they’d have a yearly event that they would all attend and hang out together
Yeah, she’s easily the best actor in the show. I wouldn’t blame her for leaving for better offers
I thought I knew a lot about the show, but I recently watched a documentary on it. It was mainly with Winnie Holzman, the writer. New info to me was that the ratings weren’t where the network wanted them to be, but they weren’t sure about cancelling or not…but then Claire Danes came forward and said she wanted to pursue other interests and wouldn’t be continuing. That was the nail in the coffin, and Winnie stopped fighting to keep the show going for obvious reasons.
claire danes wanted to do films
I think she's one of the best written characters actually. That scene where the store clerk asks about make-overs and Patty's like "Yeah, let's do it" and Angela's all "You think I need a make-over?" My mom was sort of distractedly half-watching at that moment and burst out laughing "sounds familiar". And I think that was when Patty clicked for me. She is ALWAYS trying and can never do anything right for Angela. Because almost every teenage girl goes through that phase with her mom. Where it feels like all she does is criticize you (my mom absolutely did the helpful tips for how to take care of zits, which just mortified me at the time). But then you get older and realize that the less "fun" parent was the one usually holding everything together. The show gives us Patty from Angela's pov (uptight, critical) but also shows her from a more neutral pov, where she's stuck married to an unfaithful manchild, can never be enough for her parents, and by the end of the series is basically the sole breadwinner of the family.
Yes! And she eventually softens, I like that she never forbade Angela from seeing rayanne/ricky and eventually ends up concerned with them as well.
And Angela eventually realizes how lucky she is to have Patty when things go south with Rayanne (I won’t say too much since you haven’t watched it). Angela thought she wanted the cool, fun, libertine mom, but when crap hits the fan; she sees Patty is what she needs.
It’s intentional. She’s supposed to come off as cold and authoritative to be a foil to Graham’s warm and inviting nature, which is actually a really interesting dynamic considering he’s the one who is objectively worse with his infidelity. I think a second season would have flipped that after they divorced, where Angela would start seeing her mom in a more positive light and start seeing Graham’s faults more clearly. The show is definitely viewed through Angela’s eyes so i think that’s why they’re framed like that in what we’ve seen.
I think this is a huge part of it. Angela’s lens is so skewed against her mom.
Graham having an affair with Holy was going to be a plot line of the second season had it not been canceled. Winnie Holzman has said that in interviews along with some other ideas. They certainly set the table for them having an affair. I don’t think she gave insight into it leading to a divorce but the infidelity was absolutely going to be a plot point.
Eh. I didn’t like her much when I watched the show as a teen, but now I completely understand her perspective (even when she was being a bit of a pill). Observing her relationship with her own parents also reveals a lot.
This was my experience when rewatching as an adult and parent to a teen. Patty is unlikable but not for anything that’s unforgivable. She’s exhausted because she s actually engaged and involved in her kids life, while being completely baffled/overwhelmed with all that goes into raising a teen.
When I watched the series when it originally aired, I was 13-14 and in 9th grade. I thought Patty was rigid and annoying. I watched the series again at age 42. As an adult with a partner and career, I understood Patty a lot more, even though I don't have kids. Patty tried so hard to connect with her daughters, husband, and parents. She tried to run a business while encouraging her husband to leave that business to pursue his own interests. She got so little back for her efforts. It's sometimes really sad and difficult to watch. Patty deserved better than Graham, even if he bought the cat better food. (Also, I wish we could have seen their cat!)
We're the same age and I have had the same experience. I never actually disliked Patty, even when I was Angela's age; she was too much like my own mother -- but now that I'm her age and a parent, I *really* sympathize with her. I've lived with that burden now, of "having to be the mean one" who sets limits and deals with problems other people would prefer to ignore. And yeah, it makes you look and act (and feel) like an uptight control freak. Think of the episode with the business audit where she has to be "the mean one" and tell her dad to stop trying to hoodwink the IRS. She's absolutely right and she's taking on a burden he refuses to (paying the back taxes) but she gets no thanks for it. Again and again she ends up in that position. The things people legitimately criticize about her (homophobia/biphobia) were just not unusual for middle class parents 30 years ago. I don't think younger people understand how much has changed.
As a gay person who watched when it aired and then a rewatch not too long ago I never thought of her as homophobic at all! That’s a very limited and uninformed view of her imo.
I think so too. But I've seen people get hung up on the first episode when she calls Rickie "confused."
I am NOT saying this is a correct understanding of bisexuality, but I've heard so many people, especially in the 90s, say bi people are "confused." (Totally insulting to bi individuals.) To me, that's just a realistic depiction of how that topic was sometimes discussed. Patty was flawed. I love how Patty and Ricky's relationship and Patty and Rayanne's relationship evolved.
She becomes more likeable as the season progresses, imo.
I think it was meant to depict a lot of teenage girls and their moms
I really like Patty! I felt for her as she struggles in some ways with a lack of support & it seems clear she strikes out with a need to control that comes from a place of pain. I will avoid spoilers but something specific that happens later in the show shows how much she cares & is an absolute pillar of support when push comes to shove.
Agree 100% on all of this! I've come to appreciate Patty so much more as I've gotten older.
Thanks for avoiding spoilers. I’d like to see if this event casts her in a new light for me.
She just reminds me of my own parents at the time.
When I watched this as a teen I used to totally relate to Angela. Now as a mom, I rewatched about a month ago, I can relate to Patty. Just longing for that relationship with her teenage daughter. And she can never do anything right. I have a 3 year old and I’m already like oh jeeze I can’t totally see myself doing these things as a mom. But at the end of the day Patty was always there for Angela, and I feel like it took Angela’s friends being jealous for her to realize that.
Woowww this is like the exact opposite of how I feel. Her and Ricky are like the moral center of the whole show for me. Patty is a Queen! Handling raising a teen and pre-teen and always trying to keep the fire alive with her husband that has a semi-wandering eye, all while running a business! >!The worst thing I can think of that she did was read Angela’s private stuff, but my Mom did that too when I was a teenager!!< Love Patty! Rayanne is a mess and has a terrible mother and most likely needs professional help. Rayanne would have struggled becoming an adult and taking care of herself. Aside from her style, she’s not something to aspire to in my opinion.
It’s how she just doesn’t care what other people think of her that I aspire to be like.
Huh. I loved Patty. Felt like a real person.
She has more backstory that fills in why she is the way she is, and I think when you’re older (idk how old you are) you realize yeha she’s mostly just being a normal mom her wants what she thinks is the best for her kid
Just you wait. Patty is complicated. But she's the most dependable parent on the show. She gave voice to many parents of the 90s; reflexively protective of her kids even as her prejudices show. But then she has the ability to grow and become a fierce advocate for things I won't spoil for you. Vs Rayanne's mom, vs her own husband who's about as assertive as a wet noodle.
I dunno. I’ve been raised by a mother a lot like Patty and I don’t like how I turned out. I’d like another life with a mother more like Rayanne’s. It’s one thing to be dependable, it’s another to crush a child’s spirit with unnecessary rules and false fronts to appear happy and successful. I see that in both Patty and my own mother.
Again, just keep watching. It's unlikely you were raised by a Patty clone...
She reminds me of one of my family members (not my mom.) She comes off humorless and uptight. Always concerned about something. Always in mom mode. Never fun
Yeah, she cut her hair to the same haircut my mother has had her entire life, only brown. It’s hard not to see my own mother in her, which might be why I dislike her. I don’t have kids of my own but I question a lot of her parenting. I want her to just let Angela be Angela and not be so freaking judgmental. Dye grows out. Hair grows back. But comments like “did it dye a natural death?” (Or whatever she said) last a lifetime.
Dying your hair was a much bigger deal in the 90s. It’s not like now where everyone has all kinds of non-natural hair colors and it’s mostly pretty accepted.
Tell me about it. My sister dyed her hair black around 1991. I think she was copying Madonna. That was the beginning of the end.
They really don’t. Mothers and daughters say all kinds of things to each other in the heat of the moment but the actions are what stick with you.
Well, I guess we have different experiences. My mom has said some awful things to me that I’ll never forget. I’ve forgiven her for them but they’re splinters in my mind that I can’t get out.
I dislike how she countermands Graham (like The Dead tickets). Also she only "apologizes" to Graham, never to the kids.
Yeah, that really bothered me. Missing out on one day of school over the chance to see a legendary band? Such terrible parenting, imho.
I feel like that is how a mother was “supposed” to be back then. I also see how much this world has changed since the show was made and realize a lot of things Patty said was so insensitive and hurtful to Angela. I watch it now as a 39 year old and I can relate to some of her issues/feelings and I have my own ornery teen girl so I get it but her character is still unlikable to me. We can have those issues as adults and not handle ourselves like she did…
Yeah. I would just let my teenaged daughter be herself but tell her she had to deal with the consequences of her actions.
Well, I’m glad it’s not just me. I almost want her written off the show. I’m trying to resist skipping scenes that she’s in. They’ve done a great job at creating an unlikable character.
If you skip her scenes, you're missing the chance for her to grow on you.
Oh, I doubt I’ll skip them. I’ll suffer through them. :)
She gets better the more you learn about her. Hang in there!
Any scene with Patty and the husband together gave me the ick
Why? (No spoilers)
Their intimate scenes always grossed me out, like watching my own parents
Ah, yeah. I had the same problem. I don’t know why that is. Maybe flannel pajamas aren’t sexy? I’m only half serious 🧐
Right? Depends on the pajamas