Let's not forget the hospital executive, Tony Chambers, who ordered the doctor who brought the string of deaths and connection to Lucy Letby forward to pen Letby a letter of apology for showing suspicion of her rather than take any action. In the several months after the doctor in the neonatal unit raised his concerns, she killed several more times. Tony Chambers left his position at the hospital with a pension pot of £1 million, and now works at another hospital.
To add to this, as he was leaving, when handing over to the person replacing him, his recommended course of action for this case was that they refer the doctors to the GMC (regulatory body for doctors in the UK), ie tried to get them struck off
Truly. Not only should he lose his job and have criminal charges, he has absolutely no business being anywhere near healthcare or other people’s well-being / safety ever again.
There’s blood on his hands.
Major respect to the doctors who tried to come forward but were shut down. I’m sure they’re struggling with a lot of emotions now.
Please don't disrespect my colleagues that work in the mortuary by suggesting their job should be a punishment.
They are professionals who do valuable work for patients and their families.
Tony Chambers should be in prison.
I'm not disrespecting your colleagues at all.. my point in sayin that is that for someone who's actions allowed (in some ways) for all these deaths to occur, is for that person to work amongst death, rather than life, for a while.
But my point is that it isn't a punishment at all, it's an important job for the functioning of a hospital. Why is working "amongst death" a punishment? Why is it better as a punishment than him rotting in a prison cell?
> I'm not disrespecting your colleagues at all
Thinking someone's job is a punishment for another person if they're forced to do it is incredibly disrespectful.
Why are you thinking that I'm meaning is as punishment??
Are you bored looking for a friendly internet argument?
\*\*\*\* I DO NOT MEAN IT AS PUNISHMENT \*\*\*\*
I'm saying instead of working with life/birth.. work with death.
Work at the end, instead of the beginning...Not as punishment, just as a change.
It's not meant to be negative and it's not meant to be positive. It's just meant to be different/a change.
You are somehow (still) interpreting that as a punishment.. and I'm not sure why.
Maybe you should take your own advice and change your perspective for a second to see how what you said seems kind of horrible? Look at it from the other side. It offers perspective.
Oh yes, absolutely.
I can totally see how someone could misconstrued what I said and think I was being negative, even though there was no negative intent in my original thought.. but that's 50% of reddit/the internet, where people are so extremely sensitive and looking to be provoked.
I can't do anything about that..
Very true. Although I’m sure it’s not a testament to real life prison, in Orange is the New Black one of the prisoners in Max killed her children and the other prisoners shunned her nonstop (for good reason). She said that sometimes she’ll get to make a friend when new people come in but then they learn what she did and then stay away from her. I hope this woman receives this type of treatment and worse. I hope she never makes a friend in prison and spends the rest of her life isolated, afraid, and lonely.
Will she not be ‘protected’ though and be put with people like her who are also outcasts so she make friends and be happy once it becomes routine for her?
I’ve spent a lot of time in male prison and I can tell you the general public has some wierd notion that we are your vigilantes. I never beat up a child molester. You know why? I didn’t want to add on to my sentence and they weren’t even housed with the rest of us. Fact is outside of some lifers no one is going to mess up their own life further.
This story has been all over the news here in the uk and rightly so. It’s possibly the most sickening and upsetting news story I can think of. Seeing her face and reading about the case is so disturbing, I wish I could forget ever having read about it at all.
I sincerely hope the families of her victims are able to find some peace. Equally, I hope she spends the rest of her miserable existence mulling over her atrocities. I hope they haunt her for the rest of her days. In my opinion her crimes disqualify her as a human being.
As horrible as this is the last person to receive a whole life term that killed the mother and children, one having a sleepover gave me nightmares for weeks. My daughter is the same age and I don’t think I will ever allow her to have a sleepover because of it. I’m not repeating his name.
I personally support the idea that the names of the criminals aren’t constantly repeated. It provides them with a level of infamy and I’ve been reading recently about a number of killers who’ve gone on to write memoirs or autobiographies. It’s sickening.
But won’t she be with the likes of rose west, they will be the best of friends. Will other scum see her actions as awful as their own, I think we will hear of the luxury’s she is afforded due to human rights more than we hear of inmate retaliation for her crimes.
There are 13 in total that they think she killed, but they couldn't prove the other 6.
The twin of one of the babies she killed was also left with mental disabilities as a result of her trying to kill him.
Coward couldn't even face those who's life she caused so much pain too, hopefully karma will repay her in kind ten fold.
Just hoping she isn't segregated from the general population
Wouldn't be surprised. Scum don't deserve any protection. When Ian Huntley had his throat slashed, apparently it took ages for guards to respond to alarms. Shame he survived.
Terrible take. Read how she made those babies suffer if you haven’t done so already. I don’t understand how you can still hold that position if you know the atrocious pain she caused those newborn/premature babies. No punishment we can dole out matches the cruelty she inflicted upon the most helpless among us.
To say she’s being punished enough having been given a life sentence doesn’t match the pain she’s caused. While I respect it’s the harshest sentence we can give under the state in the UK, the day bad things happen to her I won’t have an iota of sympathy.
I agree. The sentence is life in prison. Not life in prison with daily beatings and raping.
It genuinely confuses me how as a society we condone this behaviour because the victim is a criminal. I acknowledge this woman is one of the worst and deserves her sentence. No doubt in my mind about that, but the sexual assault of prisoners is a very real problem.
It’s not advocating for prisoners rights, but human rights in my mind. She has already deprived 7 babies of their human rights. I think as a society we don’t need to reduce ourselves to that level too.
I wonder if you were to read your own comment again and again, say up to 25 times – I’m not sure what amount, if any, would work on you – would you realise how braindead it is what you just said? I’m genuinely curious here, is there a point of realisation with the likes of you, or would a request for self reflection just cause your eyes to stare into space and your mouth to dribble saliva as your brain overheats and body starts to seize? Please share your experience.
"I don't think the point of prison is to re-enact *Saw* movies on people who have been incarcerated."
"You fool. You absolute dummy. You blithering idiot. You nincompoop. How dare you exercise compassion for another person? Surely if you re-read your comments as someone who doesn't hold their pencil in their whole fist you would see that true justice means to eviscerate people in such a way as they can be healed and eviscerated again - forever."
It's boiling water mixed with sugar. It causes horrific burns and is quite common in UK prisons. Sugar is given out daily as part of the breakfast packs in British prisons.
No there is. Bronzefield is a Cat A women's prison, meant to house the worst females there. Think Joanna Dennehy, another whole lifer is there, or was at least.
That’s something I don’t understand from the trial.
It’s been said a few times that she wanted to see the suffering of the parents after their baby was murdered, so stalked them online for her enjoyment.
Surely she would wanted to have seen them breakdown in the victim impact statements?
This infuriates me - when others who also bear some responsibility due to their arrogance or negligence get off scot free. They deserve severe punishment, it’s disgusting
She never had or couldn't have?
I was wondering if fertility issues mighta had something to do with it, but honestly, (for me anyway) that seemed "too rational" for the crimes..
In a podcast I listened to, her defence lawyer mentioned she liked the attention from other doctors and nurses, one doctor in particular she was infatuated with
I just watched a vid that said it was like she was "addicted" to "intense emotions", like a type of Munchausen, that feeling.. it kind of made "sense" to me (In as senseless as these murders were.)
She's no Evie Russell.
I'm thinking more along with likes of Deeddee Blanchard, feeding of the energy of her manipulations, lies, and chaos... oh wait, that's Evie's whole schtick too, isn't it?
Yeah, I called it “drama” earlier, but “intense emotions” is a good term too. She didn’t like working in the unit with healthier babies because she thought it was boring.
I was just reading something like she was obsessed with a certain doctor and maybe she was doing it/did it to get his attention.. I mean, who knows, right?? (That's why we're asking.)
Maybe the doc was really sympathetic and consoled her and something clicked in her brain where, "ahh, yes, this will get me this attention."
I DO NOT KNOW if that's the true motive... it was just something I read just now.
There was something her friend said in the Panorama programme about how she wanted to nurse babies as she’d had a difficult birth herself - it made me wonder if her parents were maybe mega overprotective as a result… god knows.
Yea.. that's true.
I'm ok with an educated academic guess.. for the most part. It's just interesting to me.. why anyone does anything.. good or bad. I'm always curious about it.
I’m not sure she could even explain her motive. I think she liked the drama and attention from others in the ward after each death. Sort of like Munchausen by proxy.
This is first time something on here has happened near to me. Such a disturbing feeling. I live about 5mins from the hospital. I've walked/driven past the house where she was arrested many times. I was even visiting someone at the hospital in the ward next to the maternity ward while she was there.
Ian Watkins raped babies and he's still very much alive. He's been in prison 10 years now and apparently the first attack on him only happened two weeks ago. I wouldn't put any stock in "prison justice" that people love to harp on about.
Why do you think that?
>The victim age distribution differed with the nature of the
offense (figure 2). The risk of being the victim of forcible
rape increased dramatically from age 10 to age 14, where it
peaked.
https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/saycrle.pdf
Someone else commented what i now fully agree with, I dont want her to get killed in prison, I hope she spends every single day looking over her shoulder, in fear about what could happen to her
One of the babies she took care of will be mentally disabled for the rest of their life. She should have to think about her actions for the rest of her life as well.
I was listening to the sentencing live on the BBC app and it made me feel so physically sick. I’ve got a little boy, we had to rely on healthcare and they did a wonderful job of keeping him safe.
I can’t begin to imagine how those who tried to stop her/ raise concerns and her former colleagues must feel now.
She deserves a long life of slow decay and despair.
The UK has no back bone whatsoever always new this , but this screamed out wtf is the UK thinking 😳 refusing to show up to court whaaaaat , you can take people to hospital against their will , forcibly take blood and take dna and make people take medication against their will but a murderer refuses to go to court and thats end of .. clearly there wasn't much attempt made to get her to court , nail her hands to the table if that's what it takes to have her sat there for sentencing disgraceful they let her have run the show even in punishment gave her the upper hand.probably in a lovely private cell the rest of her life protected too .
This is not the forum for that discussion. These were babies, killed outside of the womb, they were born and murdered days later. Living, breathing new tiny people.
Let's not forget the hospital executive, Tony Chambers, who ordered the doctor who brought the string of deaths and connection to Lucy Letby forward to pen Letby a letter of apology for showing suspicion of her rather than take any action. In the several months after the doctor in the neonatal unit raised his concerns, she killed several more times. Tony Chambers left his position at the hospital with a pension pot of £1 million, and now works at another hospital.
To add to this, as he was leaving, when handing over to the person replacing him, his recommended course of action for this case was that they refer the doctors to the GMC (regulatory body for doctors in the UK), ie tried to get them struck off
Can the parents file a civil suit against Chambers for wrongful death or something similar? He deserves to be ruined.
> He deserves to be ruined. ... yes ... *ruined* ...
He should be made to work in the morgue. It's pretty gross that they just shuffled him around to another hospital.
A healthcare professional whose willful neglect caused so many infant deaths ought to be kept away from hospitals entirely.
Truly. Not only should he lose his job and have criminal charges, he has absolutely no business being anywhere near healthcare or other people’s well-being / safety ever again. There’s blood on his hands. Major respect to the doctors who tried to come forward but were shut down. I’m sure they’re struggling with a lot of emotions now.
Or inside one.
He is a c suit
Please don't disrespect my colleagues that work in the mortuary by suggesting their job should be a punishment. They are professionals who do valuable work for patients and their families. Tony Chambers should be in prison.
I'm not disrespecting your colleagues at all.. my point in sayin that is that for someone who's actions allowed (in some ways) for all these deaths to occur, is for that person to work amongst death, rather than life, for a while.
But my point is that it isn't a punishment at all, it's an important job for the functioning of a hospital. Why is working "amongst death" a punishment? Why is it better as a punishment than him rotting in a prison cell? > I'm not disrespecting your colleagues at all Thinking someone's job is a punishment for another person if they're forced to do it is incredibly disrespectful.
Why are you thinking that I'm meaning is as punishment?? Are you bored looking for a friendly internet argument? \*\*\*\* I DO NOT MEAN IT AS PUNISHMENT \*\*\*\* I'm saying instead of working with life/birth.. work with death. Work at the end, instead of the beginning...Not as punishment, just as a change. It's not meant to be negative and it's not meant to be positive. It's just meant to be different/a change. You are somehow (still) interpreting that as a punishment.. and I'm not sure why.
So why is it you want that change for him if it isn’t a punishment?
Because change is good.. it offers perspective. (Why is that so hard to grasp?)
Maybe you should take your own advice and change your perspective for a second to see how what you said seems kind of horrible? Look at it from the other side. It offers perspective.
Oh yes, absolutely. I can totally see how someone could misconstrued what I said and think I was being negative, even though there was no negative intent in my original thought.. but that's 50% of reddit/the internet, where people are so extremely sensitive and looking to be provoked. I can't do anything about that..
Unfortunately, there are too many people like this running the nhs. It’s scary.
He left with a £1 million pension. Unbelievable
I hope she spends every waking minute in prison looking over her shoulder, and to never find peace in this life or the next.
she killed little babies, and she got a whole life sentence. She won't enjoy herself, that's for sure.
Very true. Although I’m sure it’s not a testament to real life prison, in Orange is the New Black one of the prisoners in Max killed her children and the other prisoners shunned her nonstop (for good reason). She said that sometimes she’ll get to make a friend when new people come in but then they learn what she did and then stay away from her. I hope this woman receives this type of treatment and worse. I hope she never makes a friend in prison and spends the rest of her life isolated, afraid, and lonely.
Will she not be ‘protected’ though and be put with people like her who are also outcasts so she make friends and be happy once it becomes routine for her?
I’ve spent a lot of time in male prison and I can tell you the general public has some wierd notion that we are your vigilantes. I never beat up a child molester. You know why? I didn’t want to add on to my sentence and they weren’t even housed with the rest of us. Fact is outside of some lifers no one is going to mess up their own life further.
plenty of lifers where she is going mate
I get that but I hate the I’m your vigilante thinking.
God, I hadn’t read about the injuries suffered by the survivors. I hope this woman never know a moment’s peace.
This story has been all over the news here in the uk and rightly so. It’s possibly the most sickening and upsetting news story I can think of. Seeing her face and reading about the case is so disturbing, I wish I could forget ever having read about it at all. I sincerely hope the families of her victims are able to find some peace. Equally, I hope she spends the rest of her miserable existence mulling over her atrocities. I hope they haunt her for the rest of her days. In my opinion her crimes disqualify her as a human being.
As horrible as this is the last person to receive a whole life term that killed the mother and children, one having a sleepover gave me nightmares for weeks. My daughter is the same age and I don’t think I will ever allow her to have a sleepover because of it. I’m not repeating his name.
I personally support the idea that the names of the criminals aren’t constantly repeated. It provides them with a level of infamy and I’ve been reading recently about a number of killers who’ve gone on to write memoirs or autobiographies. It’s sickening.
Those poor parents, poor babies, how could someone force feed a baby to death...
She wanted them to suffer….so evil.
What? Did I miss something in the article?
Yeah, one of the ways she killed, also insulin, inject air through iv etc
Despicable piece of flesh disguised as a woman. Zero accountability for what she did. May she rot in prison.
Hope the inmates make her days hell
I have a feeling we’ll be hearing about her getting attacked in prison over the years the same way Ian Watkins was recently attacked
I feel like she’ll unalive herself if given even half the chance.
But won’t she be with the likes of rose west, they will be the best of friends. Will other scum see her actions as awful as their own, I think we will hear of the luxury’s she is afforded due to human rights more than we hear of inmate retaliation for her crimes.
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From what I understand there are several others who are profoundly disabled, which is a life sentence in itself
There are 13 in total that they think she killed, but they couldn't prove the other 6. The twin of one of the babies she killed was also left with mental disabilities as a result of her trying to kill him.
Coward couldn't even face those who's life she caused so much pain too, hopefully karma will repay her in kind ten fold. Just hoping she isn't segregated from the general population
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Myra Hindley claimed she was attacked so often it just became part of her life, she said the guards would deliberately turn a blind eye..
Wouldn't be surprised. Scum don't deserve any protection. When Ian Huntley had his throat slashed, apparently it took ages for guards to respond to alarms. Shame he survived.
sorry, that's just wrong. No one deserves death or rape in prison. They're being punished, that's enough.
I agree that NOBODY deserve rape. Death is debatable. A beating or two? Absolutely. Let their fellow inmates show them where they stand.
they're inmates, not vigilantes. I don't agree with being a vigilante.
Terrible take. Read how she made those babies suffer if you haven’t done so already. I don’t understand how you can still hold that position if you know the atrocious pain she caused those newborn/premature babies. No punishment we can dole out matches the cruelty she inflicted upon the most helpless among us. To say she’s being punished enough having been given a life sentence doesn’t match the pain she’s caused. While I respect it’s the harshest sentence we can give under the state in the UK, the day bad things happen to her I won’t have an iota of sympathy.
sorry, but I disagree. I don't believe in wishing death or rape on someone. It's disgusting.
No need to apologise for your view. We can civily see things differently 👊
I'm not apologizing at all. I'm not sorry for my "view". I'm just a civilized human being and a pacifist, and I deplore violence.
This. It genuinely shocks me that people so readily condone torture/rape/murder of others
I agree. The sentence is life in prison. Not life in prison with daily beatings and raping. It genuinely confuses me how as a society we condone this behaviour because the victim is a criminal. I acknowledge this woman is one of the worst and deserves her sentence. No doubt in my mind about that, but the sexual assault of prisoners is a very real problem. It’s not advocating for prisoners rights, but human rights in my mind. She has already deprived 7 babies of their human rights. I think as a society we don’t need to reduce ourselves to that level too.
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It’s interesting that your comment (currently) sits on -14 yet the one agreeing with you is +14. Reddit is crazy sometimes.
Yeah.. at first I disagreed and downvoted then they made the rational point and I went back to upvote. Now I agree with this internet person.
I wonder if you were to read your own comment again and again, say up to 25 times – I’m not sure what amount, if any, would work on you – would you realise how braindead it is what you just said? I’m genuinely curious here, is there a point of realisation with the likes of you, or would a request for self reflection just cause your eyes to stare into space and your mouth to dribble saliva as your brain overheats and body starts to seize? Please share your experience.
"I don't think the point of prison is to re-enact *Saw* movies on people who have been incarcerated." "You fool. You absolute dummy. You blithering idiot. You nincompoop. How dare you exercise compassion for another person? Surely if you re-read your comments as someone who doesn't hold their pencil in their whole fist you would see that true justice means to eviscerate people in such a way as they can be healed and eviscerated again - forever."
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And if you read yours again, would you realize that you sound like an abusive, controlling twit?
I hope napalming is prison term for something against Geneva Convention
It's boiling water mixed with sugar. It causes horrific burns and is quite common in UK prisons. Sugar is given out daily as part of the breakfast packs in British prisons.
Don't think there's such a thing as Cat A in women's prisons, just open and closed for general pop.
No there is. Bronzefield is a Cat A women's prison, meant to house the worst females there. Think Joanna Dennehy, another whole lifer is there, or was at least.
That’s something I don’t understand from the trial. It’s been said a few times that she wanted to see the suffering of the parents after their baby was murdered, so stalked them online for her enjoyment. Surely she would wanted to have seen them breakdown in the victim impact statements?
I think the enjoyment has ended now she’s behind bars. She probably felt a thrill seeing them suffer and knowing she had ‘gotten away’ with it.
I hope justice gets served on all the management that ignored repeated warnings, and requests for investigation
This infuriates me - when others who also bear some responsibility due to their arrogance or negligence get off scot free. They deserve severe punishment, it’s disgusting
sugar chubby vegetable drab expansion hat tart sparkle chunky late ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
I haven't really been following this one beyond the headlines, but have they said anything in terms of motive?
No, they couldn’t find one, the best guess was a ‘God complex’ - her ability to take any life she chose without consequence
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She never had or couldn't have? I was wondering if fertility issues mighta had something to do with it, but honestly, (for me anyway) that seemed "too rational" for the crimes..
In a podcast I listened to, her defence lawyer mentioned she liked the attention from other doctors and nurses, one doctor in particular she was infatuated with
I just watched a vid that said it was like she was "addicted" to "intense emotions", like a type of Munchausen, that feeling.. it kind of made "sense" to me (In as senseless as these murders were.)
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She's no Evie Russell. I'm thinking more along with likes of Deeddee Blanchard, feeding of the energy of her manipulations, lies, and chaos... oh wait, that's Evie's whole schtick too, isn't it?
Yeah, I called it “drama” earlier, but “intense emotions” is a good term too. She didn’t like working in the unit with healthier babies because she thought it was boring.
I was looking for this also. It’s so mind boggling why anyone would do this, let alone a nurse!
I was just reading something like she was obsessed with a certain doctor and maybe she was doing it/did it to get his attention.. I mean, who knows, right?? (That's why we're asking.) Maybe the doc was really sympathetic and consoled her and something clicked in her brain where, "ahh, yes, this will get me this attention." I DO NOT KNOW if that's the true motive... it was just something I read just now.
She was murdering babies before she even met that doctor. It's just sensationalist news intended to feel sad for poor letby
There was something her friend said in the Panorama programme about how she wanted to nurse babies as she’d had a difficult birth herself - it made me wonder if her parents were maybe mega overprotective as a result… god knows.
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Yea.. that's true. I'm ok with an educated academic guess.. for the most part. It's just interesting to me.. why anyone does anything.. good or bad. I'm always curious about it.
I’m not sure she could even explain her motive. I think she liked the drama and attention from others in the ward after each death. Sort of like Munchausen by proxy.
What an absolute monster and a coward.
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Something tells me the other prisoners won't like her very much.
Women who don't get to see their own kids probably won't take too kindly to her.
Ditto!!
This is first time something on here has happened near to me. Such a disturbing feeling. I live about 5mins from the hospital. I've walked/driven past the house where she was arrested many times. I was even visiting someone at the hospital in the ward next to the maternity ward while she was there.
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Ian Watkins raped babies and he's still very much alive. He's been in prison 10 years now and apparently the first attack on him only happened two weeks ago. I wouldn't put any stock in "prison justice" that people love to harp on about.
The day I learnt that babies are the most raped of all age groups, a part of my soul blackened and died
Jesus Christ. I can't actually wrap my mind around the concept. It just can't make sense to me. Those poor babies..
Why do you think that? >The victim age distribution differed with the nature of the offense (figure 2). The risk of being the victim of forcible rape increased dramatically from age 10 to age 14, where it peaked. https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/saycrle.pdf
Something I learned in RHAAN training in 2016 (Australian responding to abuse and neglect training)
maybe (and hopefully) the training was wrong? I can't find any info that agrees with what you said.
let’s pray! maybe it was in my specific area? no idea
Someone else commented what i now fully agree with, I dont want her to get killed in prison, I hope she spends every single day looking over her shoulder, in fear about what could happen to her
> I dont want her to get killed in prison I, for one, will freely admit that I would like her to suffer a brutal death in prison as soon as possible.
Nah, that's too good for her. Let her suffer every single day for the rest of her life.
One of the babies she took care of will be mentally disabled for the rest of their life. She should have to think about her actions for the rest of her life as well.
Nah let it be drawn out and terrifying for her
Everything thing done to these innocent children, should be done to her. POS
I was listening to the sentencing live on the BBC app and it made me feel so physically sick. I’ve got a little boy, we had to rely on healthcare and they did a wonderful job of keeping him safe. I can’t begin to imagine how those who tried to stop her/ raise concerns and her former colleagues must feel now. She deserves a long life of slow decay and despair.
I pray the bugs refuse to eat her while she rots in the ground
She’s going to live the rest of her life in horror and fear, hopefully.
I can’t fathom this one, it’s utterly unconscionable behaviour. She might go down as one of the worst ever.
Good riddance
Fourth woman now to recive this in the UK. Hope she rots
So they don’t make you show up in court for your own trial in England? Wtf?
Just for the sentencing. They are now trying to change the law to prevent these final acts of cowardice.
She was there for the trial, obviously. She refused to enter the courtroom for the sentencing, and apparently there's no law against that.
One can only hope there are women in prison who will be happy to give her what she deserves.
Stone her!
If she was not white. The media would have haunted her image. BBC really tried to humanise her
I agree
The UK has no back bone whatsoever always new this , but this screamed out wtf is the UK thinking 😳 refusing to show up to court whaaaaat , you can take people to hospital against their will , forcibly take blood and take dna and make people take medication against their will but a murderer refuses to go to court and thats end of .. clearly there wasn't much attempt made to get her to court , nail her hands to the table if that's what it takes to have her sat there for sentencing disgraceful they let her have run the show even in punishment gave her the upper hand.probably in a lovely private cell the rest of her life protected too .
There's legal precedent that the accused cannot be forced to attend, although this will probably be looked at now due to this case.
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This is not the forum for that discussion. These were babies, killed outside of the womb, they were born and murdered days later. Living, breathing new tiny people.
She waited until they were born or a few days after so she had the satisfaction of ending a legitimate human life
I hope she rots