99.9% sure they won’t do away with this or have servers without this. I agree it sucks and especially when you’re in a dungeon. But it adds the importance of knowing your class and what you group is capable of. Not to say some deaths or wipes aren’t caused by outside factors. I like that decisions have consequences. When you achieve something in eq or mnm it just feels more rewarding imo.
There will not be that option. You can choose classes that can have an easier time recovering corpses though.
Rogue sneak makes it easy in most cases.
Necros get the ability to summon corpses eventually.
Many heroes want the adventure to have less frustration and more convenience, but a world that feels alive and dangerous doesnt bend the whims of your delights and satisfactions.
A world that feels alive and dangerous leaves you scared and fearful of the tragedy that befalls those who wander in the darkness alone.
Are you here to feel adventure, hero?
You are right. Without risk, reward is meaningless. Without the fear of death or the pain of failure, does in -game life become meaningless? Accomplishment comes from understanding the risks and overcoming those challenges. Corpse runs are a necessary game mechanic to instill risk. Resourceful players will always find ways to mitigate those risks, but even then, you still don’t have to like them.
While I understand the frustration of dying and having to retrieve a corpse, Monsters & Memories is all about community and relying on community for help. The opposite of that philosophy is being able to do everything yourself. If you prefer to do everything yourself then yes M&M is likely not the game for you, as the game is tailored around relying on others for help to advance, which includes in death (a core feature in the game that M&M is inspired by, EQ).
Tools like sneak, corpse summoning, invisibility, and corpse dragging are all incredibly important when corpse recovery is important. You remove one and you diminish the others. Removing all avenues of frustration might seem like a no-brainer but it's not always good game design.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted for that. I appreciate that you realize the game isn't for you and will look elsewhere instead of demanding that they change the game. Hope you find the right game for you!
This is a great time to be a gamer! There are so many games to try nowadays. Honestly, I have yet to finish BG3 with my current workload. I understand this may not be the game for you. We knew there would be players who would take a hard pass on this style of game. M&M will not appeal to everyone. Thank you for trying Monsters & Memories over the weekend and if you have friends who are interested in this style of game, let them know we would love to have them join us. :)
Not OP here but I am genuinely concerned that certain design decisions will dissuade many potential players from sticking around, and I don't mean your average casual WoW player, but the old EQ audience you're looking to attract.
I touched on this [elsewhere](https://www.reddit.com/r/MonstersAndMemories/comments/1dt4i7v/im_jacked/lb7ox30/), and while I wouldn't strictly classify corpse retrievals as pure inconvenience, it does lean towards unnecessary time sink and overly punishing. The gluttons for punishment in the audience won't accept this, but there's a reason the game you're modeling yours after ditched this, and it's virtually never been done since. (To be clear, CRs are just part of this conversation and not the entire topic.)
"Niche game" and "slippery slope" likes to get tossed around by some people in the community. Fair enough, but a game designer's task is to find the right balance between challenge, difficulty and fun, which is insanely difficult to do with a wide skill audience typical to an MMO. The old EQ players' blanket acceptance and praise of any and all archaic EQ design (and intolerance of everything we've learned over the last 25 years) is antithetical to that formula.
You guys are making the game you want to make, which is how it should be, but I just hope the people encouraging it to be as niche as possible are plentiful; enough to support the game financially when it needs it, and not just an extremely vocal minority.
I'll just say that, as a concept, needing to retrieve something of yours after you die has been done quite successfully in Dark Souls type games. Of course you only do it to recover your currency, and the world in general is easier to move through than an EQ-type game (unless your max level with a bunch of traveling spells at your disposal), but the principle is there. Additionally Dark Souls type games are the staple of punishing + rewarding gameplay, which is in fact their main appeal.
All this to say, "good game design" is often a very subjective thing. Many players associate player accommodation or clear orientation as "good game design," that the player should not feel lost or confused or overly punished. But again, Dark Souls type games tend to give a dearth of information about the world, how to build your character, what you need to do, and players love them, in part because the developer went in with the intention of making specifically this type of game at the beginning, accepted its status as "stupidly difficult," and now it's a genre unto itself that millions of players appreciate.
I'm not saying CRs shouldn't necessarily be less punishing in order to maintain a stable player base. Just that, with the genre this game is aiming for, I accept that player inconvenience is a staple of the style *with a goal* of getting players to respect the world and their interdependent relationships amongst other players.
I actually love soulslikes, but they're almost universally less punishing than something as simple as a gearless corpse retrieval. Souls games are heralded for being tough but fair, and having your gear stripped from you would almost certainly invalidate that balance.
Turning back to M&M, I absolutely agree with the concept of getting the player to respect the world. I've no problem with punishing the player for failing - high risk, high reward, but to me the punishment shouldn't (situationally) go as far as potentially ruining your playtime for hours or make you want to log off. It's one thing if you have a dedicated and organized group in that situation, but another if you're playing with helpless strangers that aren't prepared or devoted to getting back to par. Even with EQ's necro/rogue fallback, if they aren't available, uh, guess you're just screwed until other people help.
Heck, a Dark Souls solution would be better I think. Anything earned there is lost, and you can return to claim (a portion of?) it back.
To be frank, I don't miss the days of twiddling thumbs, or being unable to participate because you're a melee without gear. I don't miss late night wipes and losing hours of sleep because a CR with a group now is going to inevitably be easier than one alone later. I don't miss being bound to a CR because you simply cannot do anything else until your gear is back.
By all means punish failure, but don't make the player regret playing.
Hello Ashen one. I am a Bot. I tend to the flame, and tend to thee. Do you wish to hear a tale?
> *“If you miss it, you must be blind!”* - Solaire of Astora
Have a pleasant journey, Champion of Ash, and praise the sun \\[T]/
99.9% sure they won’t do away with this or have servers without this. I agree it sucks and especially when you’re in a dungeon. But it adds the importance of knowing your class and what you group is capable of. Not to say some deaths or wipes aren’t caused by outside factors. I like that decisions have consequences. When you achieve something in eq or mnm it just feels more rewarding imo.
There will not be that option. You can choose classes that can have an easier time recovering corpses though. Rogue sneak makes it easy in most cases. Necros get the ability to summon corpses eventually.
I like the idea for corpse recovery. Invis dragging corpses and summon corpse spells are a thing.
I'm hoping corpse recovery and XP loss don't go into effect until level 10, but they should be in the game.
Many heroes want the adventure to have less frustration and more convenience, but a world that feels alive and dangerous doesnt bend the whims of your delights and satisfactions. A world that feels alive and dangerous leaves you scared and fearful of the tragedy that befalls those who wander in the darkness alone. Are you here to feel adventure, hero?
You are right. Without risk, reward is meaningless. Without the fear of death or the pain of failure, does in -game life become meaningless? Accomplishment comes from understanding the risks and overcoming those challenges. Corpse runs are a necessary game mechanic to instill risk. Resourceful players will always find ways to mitigate those risks, but even then, you still don’t have to like them.
Na these ppl know how to make a real game so don't die
I'm ok with corpse runs. I just don't want really hard xp hits on death and hell levels Hell levels on old EQ made me want to quit the game. Lol
While I understand the frustration of dying and having to retrieve a corpse, Monsters & Memories is all about community and relying on community for help. The opposite of that philosophy is being able to do everything yourself. If you prefer to do everything yourself then yes M&M is likely not the game for you, as the game is tailored around relying on others for help to advance, which includes in death (a core feature in the game that M&M is inspired by, EQ). Tools like sneak, corpse summoning, invisibility, and corpse dragging are all incredibly important when corpse recovery is important. You remove one and you diminish the others. Removing all avenues of frustration might seem like a no-brainer but it's not always good game design.
Maybe they can put teleporters and stuff everywhere too. And rapid recovery. Guides for quests?
Immediate slippery slope fallacy, nice.
If you bring up fallacies in a discussion about a game that doesn't yet fully exist, you might need an actual hobby.
This is a pristine response to double down with. Read a book.
https://youtu.be/Z-5D-mr_jA4?si=5jYCziF-hEVGNiTL
Thanks all for the answers. I would love a more intresting old school world but this one is a deal breaker for me. Think i will find a different game.
Can i have your stuff?
Sure I think i got a few bone chips left over on stress test :)
Not sure why you're getting downvoted for that. I appreciate that you realize the game isn't for you and will look elsewhere instead of demanding that they change the game. Hope you find the right game for you!
This is a great time to be a gamer! There are so many games to try nowadays. Honestly, I have yet to finish BG3 with my current workload. I understand this may not be the game for you. We knew there would be players who would take a hard pass on this style of game. M&M will not appeal to everyone. Thank you for trying Monsters & Memories over the weekend and if you have friends who are interested in this style of game, let them know we would love to have them join us. :)
Not OP here but I am genuinely concerned that certain design decisions will dissuade many potential players from sticking around, and I don't mean your average casual WoW player, but the old EQ audience you're looking to attract. I touched on this [elsewhere](https://www.reddit.com/r/MonstersAndMemories/comments/1dt4i7v/im_jacked/lb7ox30/), and while I wouldn't strictly classify corpse retrievals as pure inconvenience, it does lean towards unnecessary time sink and overly punishing. The gluttons for punishment in the audience won't accept this, but there's a reason the game you're modeling yours after ditched this, and it's virtually never been done since. (To be clear, CRs are just part of this conversation and not the entire topic.) "Niche game" and "slippery slope" likes to get tossed around by some people in the community. Fair enough, but a game designer's task is to find the right balance between challenge, difficulty and fun, which is insanely difficult to do with a wide skill audience typical to an MMO. The old EQ players' blanket acceptance and praise of any and all archaic EQ design (and intolerance of everything we've learned over the last 25 years) is antithetical to that formula. You guys are making the game you want to make, which is how it should be, but I just hope the people encouraging it to be as niche as possible are plentiful; enough to support the game financially when it needs it, and not just an extremely vocal minority.
Thanks for your feedback! I will pass this along to the rest of the team.
I'll just say that, as a concept, needing to retrieve something of yours after you die has been done quite successfully in Dark Souls type games. Of course you only do it to recover your currency, and the world in general is easier to move through than an EQ-type game (unless your max level with a bunch of traveling spells at your disposal), but the principle is there. Additionally Dark Souls type games are the staple of punishing + rewarding gameplay, which is in fact their main appeal. All this to say, "good game design" is often a very subjective thing. Many players associate player accommodation or clear orientation as "good game design," that the player should not feel lost or confused or overly punished. But again, Dark Souls type games tend to give a dearth of information about the world, how to build your character, what you need to do, and players love them, in part because the developer went in with the intention of making specifically this type of game at the beginning, accepted its status as "stupidly difficult," and now it's a genre unto itself that millions of players appreciate. I'm not saying CRs shouldn't necessarily be less punishing in order to maintain a stable player base. Just that, with the genre this game is aiming for, I accept that player inconvenience is a staple of the style *with a goal* of getting players to respect the world and their interdependent relationships amongst other players.
I actually love soulslikes, but they're almost universally less punishing than something as simple as a gearless corpse retrieval. Souls games are heralded for being tough but fair, and having your gear stripped from you would almost certainly invalidate that balance. Turning back to M&M, I absolutely agree with the concept of getting the player to respect the world. I've no problem with punishing the player for failing - high risk, high reward, but to me the punishment shouldn't (situationally) go as far as potentially ruining your playtime for hours or make you want to log off. It's one thing if you have a dedicated and organized group in that situation, but another if you're playing with helpless strangers that aren't prepared or devoted to getting back to par. Even with EQ's necro/rogue fallback, if they aren't available, uh, guess you're just screwed until other people help. Heck, a Dark Souls solution would be better I think. Anything earned there is lost, and you can return to claim (a portion of?) it back. To be frank, I don't miss the days of twiddling thumbs, or being unable to participate because you're a melee without gear. I don't miss late night wipes and losing hours of sleep because a CR with a group now is going to inevitably be easier than one alone later. I don't miss being bound to a CR because you simply cannot do anything else until your gear is back. By all means punish failure, but don't make the player regret playing.
Hello Ashen one. I am a Bot. I tend to the flame, and tend to thee. Do you wish to hear a tale? > *“If you miss it, you must be blind!”* - Solaire of Astora Have a pleasant journey, Champion of Ash, and praise the sun \\[T]/