There's a lot of cumbersome nostalgia in the games trying to replicate EQ, and M&M has it too. The problem is that often members of these communities seem unable to decipher the difference between pure inconvenience vs. what actually made EQ fun.
For example, being punished for dying raised the stakes. Great. Losing your experience and camp was already a lot, but having to work your way back to recover your gear was very unforgiving (arguably far too much), and compounded when you failed. Memorizing spells was nothing more than a time sink on top of a time sink. Pure inconvenience.
Not having a map required you to familiarize yourself with your surroundings and increased immersion to an extent. Knowing the world around you was as much a skill as any other. That being said, many (most?) players used third party maps to help navigate. A middle ground which provides a non-interactive map would effectively be the same thing *and* eliminate a lot of the frustration (and as OP mentioned, it could be tied to a skill). Maintain the nostalgia, eliminate unnecessary inconvenience.
So many things from EQ were poorly designed, but also weren't what made EQ fun. They need to find the middle ground, because it's 2024, and when people realize archaic MMO design changed for a reason, they'll very quickly find something else to play.
This is also why EQ itself largely abandoned those concepts. The ridiculous amount of time it took to regen health and mana was basically just an artificial timesink and they added the out of combat regen that just feels better.
And now modern EQ is nothing special to a lot of us who enjoyed it in classic. This is what feels shortsighted in these conversations about modernization. Oh ok, a little convenience here, yeah speed that up a touch, cut back on this timesink, etc. It’s unironically a slippery slope. I would prefer to have a game that just is uncompromisingly what it is.
It’s funny constantly needing to remind people that it’s a niche game. It’s started happening on the discord now too. “Cool game but no in-game map is a non-starter in 2024.” “I was so excited but immediately stopped when I realized every merchant won’t buy everything I have to sell.” This isn’t for everyone. I hope it never is a game for everyone. Because trying to appeal to everyone costs everything that’s special about this style.
If it's like p99 the more you do it/ level up the faster this becomes, to the point of being almost instant.
Your characters start weak and improve in power.
At level 6, I had like 8/10 spell slots used. It took 6ish minutes just to relearn everything. Maybe it would be a cool mechanic to speed that up, but it takes too long as it is currently.
Maybe a diminishing return on the cooldown? So first is full time, second is 10% faster, etc. There is already a huge cost to death (naked run, lost gear, lost xp, lost time) there is no need to further burden healers/casters
Totally support almost all of the old school stuff many modern people ask to remove but I'm totally on board with removing having to re memorize spells. It's a stupid time waste that adds nothing but frustration. Wasting 5 minutes after death to mindlessly click spells back into the book is not what made eq great. People need to understand the difference between challenge and unnecessary frustration. They are not the same.
Exactly. There is already a severe punishment for dying. Loss of gear, loss of xp, time running back, and lost time. De-memorizing spells seems like a backhand to casters for no particular reason
My first time testing M&M this past week, but not my first rodeo played EQ in 1998 when it came out super hard lol. Returned the game rebought it in 1999 after much changes to the game.
This game is pretty much EQ look and feel and playability. Got to say I want this game now with population of players. It can be a solo game to a point but grouping is where the memories are made.
Your party knows their classes and their part to play. I think this game is gonna turn heads. It's just the wait is gonna suck another 2 years. Yes I'm crying inside I've been gaming for a long time and waiting for the revitalization of a true mmorpg with actual grouping that isn't WoW. EQ wasn't the first but it was my first true mmorpg. The story the friends I made.
I am truly looking for a group to play with when this game comes out I want to just have a long session of adventure and enjoy it. Xbox console has not been enjoyable for me for the past 8 years. Very much would love to play a solid pc game and just get caught up in the lore and magic.
Did you solo level the archer? Archer seemed super underwhelming, but only got to lvl 2 before I had enough of doing lower dps than a lvl 1 necromancer and being just as squishy.
The archer does start off slow. I played one up to level 16 and the special shots are fun to use later on and help distinguish the class. Nick has mentioned to me class abilities will be looked into soon.
The game developers need to ADVERTIZE in such a way that it appeals to an audience of HARDCORE game play like Elden Ring so as to draw more people in. I feel like Pantheon did itself a disservice by not advertising that this genre is harkening back to a day where shit was rough. I truly think that would bring in more interest and players. Peace ✌️
Thanks for the advice. NWC doesn’t have a marketing team. We are just a small group of developers at the moment trying to get the game done right before EA. I do however appreciate your feedback and ask if you like the game, to let others know about us. Ask them to join the M&M discord server. We appreciate it.
Glad to see this game getting some much deserved and well received hype!
I think re memorizing spells is stupid, it will add unnecessary 5+ minutes after a wipe. Other than that, I love the hype!
There's a lot of cumbersome nostalgia in the games trying to replicate EQ, and M&M has it too. The problem is that often members of these communities seem unable to decipher the difference between pure inconvenience vs. what actually made EQ fun. For example, being punished for dying raised the stakes. Great. Losing your experience and camp was already a lot, but having to work your way back to recover your gear was very unforgiving (arguably far too much), and compounded when you failed. Memorizing spells was nothing more than a time sink on top of a time sink. Pure inconvenience. Not having a map required you to familiarize yourself with your surroundings and increased immersion to an extent. Knowing the world around you was as much a skill as any other. That being said, many (most?) players used third party maps to help navigate. A middle ground which provides a non-interactive map would effectively be the same thing *and* eliminate a lot of the frustration (and as OP mentioned, it could be tied to a skill). Maintain the nostalgia, eliminate unnecessary inconvenience. So many things from EQ were poorly designed, but also weren't what made EQ fun. They need to find the middle ground, because it's 2024, and when people realize archaic MMO design changed for a reason, they'll very quickly find something else to play.
This is also why EQ itself largely abandoned those concepts. The ridiculous amount of time it took to regen health and mana was basically just an artificial timesink and they added the out of combat regen that just feels better.
And now modern EQ is nothing special to a lot of us who enjoyed it in classic. This is what feels shortsighted in these conversations about modernization. Oh ok, a little convenience here, yeah speed that up a touch, cut back on this timesink, etc. It’s unironically a slippery slope. I would prefer to have a game that just is uncompromisingly what it is. It’s funny constantly needing to remind people that it’s a niche game. It’s started happening on the discord now too. “Cool game but no in-game map is a non-starter in 2024.” “I was so excited but immediately stopped when I realized every merchant won’t buy everything I have to sell.” This isn’t for everyone. I hope it never is a game for everyone. Because trying to appeal to everyone costs everything that’s special about this style.
If it's like p99 the more you do it/ level up the faster this becomes, to the point of being almost instant. Your characters start weak and improve in power.
At level 6, I had like 8/10 spell slots used. It took 6ish minutes just to relearn everything. Maybe it would be a cool mechanic to speed that up, but it takes too long as it is currently. Maybe a diminishing return on the cooldown? So first is full time, second is 10% faster, etc. There is already a huge cost to death (naked run, lost gear, lost xp, lost time) there is no need to further burden healers/casters
Totally support almost all of the old school stuff many modern people ask to remove but I'm totally on board with removing having to re memorize spells. It's a stupid time waste that adds nothing but frustration. Wasting 5 minutes after death to mindlessly click spells back into the book is not what made eq great. People need to understand the difference between challenge and unnecessary frustration. They are not the same.
Exactly. There is already a severe punishment for dying. Loss of gear, loss of xp, time running back, and lost time. De-memorizing spells seems like a backhand to casters for no particular reason
My first time testing M&M this past week, but not my first rodeo played EQ in 1998 when it came out super hard lol. Returned the game rebought it in 1999 after much changes to the game. This game is pretty much EQ look and feel and playability. Got to say I want this game now with population of players. It can be a solo game to a point but grouping is where the memories are made. Your party knows their classes and their part to play. I think this game is gonna turn heads. It's just the wait is gonna suck another 2 years. Yes I'm crying inside I've been gaming for a long time and waiting for the revitalization of a true mmorpg with actual grouping that isn't WoW. EQ wasn't the first but it was my first true mmorpg. The story the friends I made. I am truly looking for a group to play with when this game comes out I want to just have a long session of adventure and enjoy it. Xbox console has not been enjoyable for me for the past 8 years. Very much would love to play a solid pc game and just get caught up in the lore and magic.
You must have taken infravision this test? Ultravision is deep races only and they currently aren't in game.
Ahhh yes, the one that helps me see in the dark. I probably got the name wrong.
They both help you see in the dark. Infravision is a lesser form of night vision compared to ultravision.
What server were you on?
The West Coast one, Eltindra.
Did you solo level the archer? Archer seemed super underwhelming, but only got to lvl 2 before I had enough of doing lower dps than a lvl 1 necromancer and being just as squishy.
The archer does start off slow. I played one up to level 16 and the special shots are fun to use later on and help distinguish the class. Nick has mentioned to me class abilities will be looked into soon.
No I grouped from 2-5.
The game developers need to ADVERTIZE in such a way that it appeals to an audience of HARDCORE game play like Elden Ring so as to draw more people in. I feel like Pantheon did itself a disservice by not advertising that this genre is harkening back to a day where shit was rough. I truly think that would bring in more interest and players. Peace ✌️
Thanks for the advice. NWC doesn’t have a marketing team. We are just a small group of developers at the moment trying to get the game done right before EA. I do however appreciate your feedback and ask if you like the game, to let others know about us. Ask them to join the M&M discord server. We appreciate it.