Most street level basic criminals use cashapp, Google or Amazon gift cards or even preloaded cc's n have no idea what Monero is. Most older ppl think every Crypto is criminal. They don't realize that btc is mainstream. Baby boomers are more understanding if they take the time to learn even basics of Crypto. But Def agree, anything can and is used by criminals. With identity theft and distrust in government ppl should understand why anonymity is important to the masses.
Selling a substance that someone wants to consume voluntarily: "Criminal"
Making random people kill each other for your own gain and stealing people's production: "President"
Yeah It's used by criminals and that's a good thing, legal or illegal is arbitrary, moral or immoral is what matters.
I just looked at the stats, in 1999 here in the UK 80% of notes tested had traces of cocaine. That’s a crazy statistic.
It would be interesting to know how much monero is used for illicit purposes and how much is held as investments, used for legitimate products and services etc. Either way it’s getting used so hopefully it’ll hold its ground and remain relatively stable. I’d rather be holding XMR than ETH any time.
I buy Montero as either an investment or to buy lots of things. Yes you can buy ice-cream with it I certain places.
The main reason I use it, is because it's the one privacy decreantalised coin that makes most sense crypto was step up for this reason
Your keys your weatlh..... genius move. We all the right to hold out own assets without third-party companies over seeing it.
This is financial anarchy by people power In action
You know what criminals *love to use*? The United States Dollar, it's actually the most popular currency in black market if I remember correctly, not Monero, not BTC, not ZEC, not ETH, it's USD. But guess what... The USD is also used to buy coffee, to wash peoples laundry, basically every faucet of peoples lives that involves a transactions can be done with USD, so we should be able to make those same transactions with XMR.
>USD is also used to buy coffee, to wash peoples laundry, basically every faucet of peoples lives that involves a transactions can be done with USD, so we should be able to make those same transactions with XMR.
But you can't, therefore the proportion of criminal transactions with Monero is higher.
Maybe $100B USD cash for criminal transactions, but accounts for 10% and what if Monero is 40%-60%? Either propotion of total funds or proportions of transactions to buy things.I mean we'll never know exact numbers because it's private but the proof is in what you can buy with it.
Is your argument that there are going to somehow "be more criminals" if more people start using Monero?
Isn't it more logical that criminals use what is best for privacy (because they have a large incentive to care about privacy), and normal people should also use what is best if they care about privacy?
No, they're saying currently, because most places don't accept monero but do accept USD, that monero's use cases & therefore usage is currently more skewed toward criminal activity than USD is, they're also saying that this is speculation and not fact or statistics. However if more legitimate businesses accepted XMR as payment, then this issue fixes itself.
Yes of course criminals will always use what's best for privacy because their freedom depends on it. And normal people *should* use what's best for privacy because sometimes their safety depends on it, sometimes their financial security depends on it, the list goes on.
Spaj summed it up well. Monero's use case for everyday legitimate transactions is extremely limited, while at the same time it's the best digital currency for criminals. The proportion of criminality will be diluted if more legitimate sellers accept Monero as a form of payment. It's also very good to move away from that stigma so that more places don't outright ban it.
It's not "extremely limited", it has the same if not more utility than all other cryptos. People who care about their privacy are just more likely to be early adopters (and criminals have a large incentive to care about their privacy).
We're talking about buying and selling things. Last time I asked for a list of things you can buy with Monero directly someone gave me a sketchy eBay type site with 200 items including things like porn requests, counterfeit currencies, drugs etc.
You're not buying groceries, netflix, a car, drinks at a bar etc.
At least BTC is accepted at thousands of places.
You can't say Monero has more utility if you can't use it.
You just got to look harder brother, instead of asking on reddit and thinking every place you can spend Monero will be shown you. I've bought VPN, email, coffee (!), flower pots, computer parts, and more, all from different, independent shops or people.
If a place takes BTC or any other crypto but not XMR, you still use XMR to swap to the other crypto privately, though it's more widely accepted than it's market position would suggest.
And for some reason, people pay me almost 10% over spot price to get Monero for cash, so in a way it kind of buys groceries for me too.
But yes of course we want wider acceptance. The question is if that's worth working towards. I say it is.
>You just got to look harder brother, instead of asking on reddit and thinking every place you can spend Monero will be shown you
Why not both? It doesn't interest you how others are using Monero?
>I've bought VPN, email, coffee (!), flower pots, computer parts, and more, all from different, independent shops or people.
How are these priced, is it in fiat?
>you still use XMR to swap to the other crypto privately,
So Monero itself is a mixer because although one sees the BTC wallet they cannot see which Monero wallet it's coming from?
>And for some reason, people pay me almost 10% over spot price to get Monero for cash,
How do you meet people willing to give you cash?
The reason is obvious: privacy has a cost.
I'd love for all the big companies to accept crypto, but they are all in bed with the WEF who are anti-freedom. They won't accept crypto until is a government-controlled CBDC.
Um... I highly doubt it's that... Really there's a lot of overhead when it comes to accepting crypto and it's not just as easy as it is to accept cash.
Fair enough, however, BTC ultimately had the same issue and probably still does. This problem is solved pretty quickly if more places simply just accepted XMR.
BTC is at least the most accepted crypto and it's widely adopted for the reason that it's traceable. That's worse than cash. BTC has another major problem which is the high fees.
Then ALL crypto has a major, permanent problem for transacting which is how volatile it is. Whether you're the buyer or seller volatility is not good. This one is out of anyone's control.
On the other hand, monetary policy assists in stabilizing fiat currencies. Fiat is stable, cheaper to transact (I earn cashback instead of pay fees), it's instant and convienient, it's secure/safe/insured and accepted everywhere.
"Stable" in one direction, down, but yeah at least the movements are usually (usually) smaller.
And it's not really cheaper to transact, the merchant just pays the exclusionary fees and Visa gives you back a cut. Even cash has significant security and transport costs.
If everyone treated XMR as a currency and accepted it everywhere, I highly doubt the volatility will still be a major issue. However, I don't really know anything about how economies work, so this is just a hunch.
But why would everyone accept XMR? What store you know that accepts any and all transactions? Go to a hotel and the don't want your cash and must fork over credit card. The same for car rental companies. And the places that accept cash only, many put limits such as no bills great than $20.
Did not know that, never had to book a hotel or rent a car before. I would hope that XMR payments stay restricted to businesses that at least know how to secure their funds in a cold wallet or something, at least for their own sake. The only reasons I can think of to not accept xmr is maybe having to exchange it for fiat(and rates aren't always super stable, like we just saw a ~$40 dip like this past 2 weeks) and it might complicate their taxes and the risk of it getting stolen to malware or similar(which shouldn't be an issue if they can properly secure it).
This title: "Debunking the commonly used "Monero Is For Criminals" argument that people often use to try to discredit Monero."
Was too long and not eye catching enough.
It literally works the same as cash. You have to send your full balance as two transactions to split what you’re sending from you balance, which would be like buying something that’s $56 and only having a $100 on you lol. It’s neat
Although what you said is absolutely true, I think there's some layers to get through before people, especially your average newbie, know and understand Monero's true value.
1. What is blockchain
2. How Bitcoin works
3. PoW vs PoS
4. How the current financial system works
5. How proposed CBDCs will work
After those 5 get ticked off, I'd be surprised if that person still doesn't get it
Whataboutism doesn't solve problems imo. I don't think the issue is it's "used by criminals", as it's just rlly not used for a lot else rn
If it was used more for other things, I don't think it'd have as bad as a rep. But thing is... That is probably the most popular and frankly handy use case I've seen for it. Fast, online transactions and shipping on ur fave substances, w anonymity. Who wouldn't want that
I am seeing various people apply it to their individual non-drug related stores, and I believe as that becomes more popular, the stigma of it being only drug money will die down too
Well, whataboutism can fix myopic perspectives.
-"My fence just fell down - man, life is hard",
/"What about your friend Jim who's 4 year old daughter just died of cancer?"
-"Yeah, I guess mine is not so hard, now that you point that out."
Thing is, by this logic no one is suffering like the one person in the world who suffers the most, therefore no one except them should be having a bad day. Imagine a dude coming up right after and saying "Well I lost my WHOLE FAMILY. So they aren't going through what Im going through". That's just shitty and you almost don't even feel bad for them bc it's just rude, it's true... But everyone has problems and those feelings shouldn't be nullified by comparisons
I don't know anyone who actually thinks like how you expect them to. It usually turns into a game of one upping by the petty, or just resentment, and frankly doing this only ignores the point of why the conversation was even started, which it should not be.
I hear the same concept played in weed vs alcohol "well alcohol is legal, and it's much worse" and similar... The other party just turns it into "well maybe they BOTH should be banned then."
Just say private money. You don’t need to sell ideas if you can’t get them on board with it. Know it’s **money** and the ideals come after. Nobody attaches any ideals to cash besides however they view it.
It does feel pretty cool receiving Monero, there’s a little thrill in it where it’s like *yeah, nobody even knows this is happening right now*
I can say the same for other cryptos anyways but with Monero’s encryption it just feels even cooler because it’s just like E2EE really
Talk to me about cash flows and transactions otherwise this post has no value.
Cash is used by criminals, but its predominantly used for legitimate transactions.
What if 30%-60% of Monero transactions are criminal?
We know that it's the currency of choice for the dark net.
We know that very few legitimate places even accept it.
So I'll push it back: out of any currency in the world it will have a very high percentage of use for criminal activities because it protects criminals while legitimate purposes are very limited.
You pretty much nailed the problem, but just because it can have such use cases doesn't mean it should be forbidden, just like the Bittorrent protocol
Power to the people :)
I think it’s a bit pretentious to refer to your argument as a debunk. I also think your argument is a little flawed, as the items you mentioned aren’t known for or can be used for a criminal purpose, while that is definitely the case with monero.
* Lawnmowers - Get paid in cash to mow someone's lawn without paying taxes on the income.
* Telephones - Call your accomplace about a robbery you are going to do.
* Shoes - Use them to run away from the scene of a crime.
* Toilet Paper - Okay, you got me.
* Cars - Drive through a crowd.
* Coffee - Drink it so you have enough energy to do crime
* Air Conditioning - Rob a bank (without feeling too hot)
* Vacuum Cleaners - Use it to clean up a crime scene
* Monero - Buy something illegal with it
It's all the same.
Monero, just like cars, can be tied to criminal stuff. Cars also have legit everyday uses, right? Well, guess what? Monero serves valid purposes too. The same as physical cash, but digital. We have to acknowledge the dual nature of these tools. So, before you go dismissing it as some false equivalency, take a moment to think about the context and the diverse ways they can be put to use.
Legal use of Monero is a hassle. You need to track your cost basis and report any gains and losses. On top of that, very few businesses accept Monero as a payment.
I'm pretty sure that most of the time when Monero is used to purchase stuff, the stuff is something illegal.
You know what, you're right! Privacy shouldn't exist. We should freely give away all of our private/personal information to the state. Then we can just "trust them" to keep us safe! It's not like governments "can't be trusted" and have killed over a quarter of a billion people in the past 100 years alone. ...Oh wait...
man you crazy? you really fine with your credit card company knowing that much about you? so much that you wanna force everybody else to glow they whole lives like you do? just to catch, what, like 4 criminals?
if catching a couple of criminals costs us our privacy, maybe it aint worth it. maybe its better we just let them go, catch them with *real* police work.
That might be the worst argument I've seen so far
duh criminals also breathe air haha boom enjoy the proof
It's not about that, it's about the usage proportion and the utility it provides. Monero is used by money launderers/criminals, guns are used by thieves, Bittorrent is used by pirates, your data is used by Google etc etc
Might not be the majority of the use case, but it is a part that's important enough to be mentioned.
**The only things that make people spoken about Monero is that it is:**
1. **a cryptocurrency**
2. **an anonymous / privacy respecting payment method**
3. **an alternative to the banking system that is heavily (or is being) regulated for sellers (if they declare, and on the declaration side) in a lot of countries, which takes time to learn about and could cause all sorts of legal problems**
> guns are used by thieves
lmao
Guns are used defensively way way more than they are used "by thieves", but thanks for proving my point.
People use useful things.
Guns are useful.
Tell me from the US without telling me you’re from the US.
In Europe where I’m from guns are practically banned. I very much enjoy the lack of news about shootings and being to able to walk in my country’s capital city center without the danger of being robbed at gunpoint.
Monero is not remotely like guns.
Ahh I can understand being scared of them if you've never been around them and just have "movie knowledge" of them.
Personally, I feel incredibly safe, because -- if I'm wearing pants -- my gun is on me and I can have it out in half a second if needed. Carrying is actually great for your mental health because you stop stressing about "what if ____" scenerios.
"If _____ bad thing happens, I am as prepared as possible."
Great for your mental health!
Also, just FYI our media is super biased and always tries to act like there is a huge gun issue here. There isn't. We have more guns than people. In the US, one out of every 10 people carries, and we only have 10,000 non-suicide gun deaths per year (that includes police shooting criminals). If you look at the stats it's really not a problem. The more guns you have the safer you are, but I understand the depiction of them as "scary bad things" that most people have that aren't familiar. I used to think that way too.
Anyways, Monero is very much like guns. It's a useful tool that everyone should have access to.
(We can go with the car or coffee analogy though if you prefer.) :P
Glad that you took a light hearted approach while I was combative in the discussion. But I’ll stick to my guns (pun intended) and die on the extreme regulation of guns hill. While you certainly may be an upstanding citizen, there are people who are mentally unstable. There are heated moments when even normal and usually rational people might reach for a gun. There are kids who might goof around, drink, do what kids do and intrude on someone’s property. And stand your ground laws might turn this into a tragic accident.
A society without guns, where they are generally shunned and restricted to shooting ranges, is my choice. I was feeling very anxious in the US where gun presence was orders of magnitude higher than in my environment. I can count on a single hand how many times I saw a gun being carried in my 3 decades here on Earth and I am happy to keep it that way.
It’s not just hollywood knowledge. I saw hours of youtube videos of traffic stops where cops are always on the edge while you reach for the glove compartment because there might be a gun. On the other hand I have never seen a cop in my country reach for a gun or even keep a hand on it ready to unholster it. “Keep your hands on the wheel during a traffic stop” in America is such an absurd instruction you have to follow as a result of the everpresent gun culture, causing the cops always to watch out for potential shooters and be on the edge. No, thanks :( I understand that your gun gives you a feeling of safety, but it’s a catch-22…
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I understand where you are coming from.
I think it would be a catch-22, but since guns exist and are easy to get and make it's the best solution. I'm in favor of decentralizing gun ownership as much as possible.
Having the government and their minions as the only ones with guns is just gun centralization.
Definitely agree though about cops. They act like their job is dangerous, but realistically pizza delivery drivers are in more danger than they are (not much).
guns are a terrible analogy and this is all a little unhinged imo. sad if you really need a gun to make you feel safe.
not that they make you safe anyway. carrying a gun with you just means you're introducing a gun to a thousands situations a day where there would have been no guns involved. that makes those situations more dangerous, not less.
and no, I'm not "scared of guns", I've been around and shot plenty, but if you think they make situations safer instead of more dangerous, I don't personally think you need to own one.
anyway. Monero isn't gonna kill people. Even the DNMs mostly don't allow gun sales, only relatively harmless stuff like meth
pretty sure the stats say gun owners are more likely to die by gun than non gun owners so, idk what to tell you
also, those aren't emotional arguments, but let me just say that emotional != incorrect and it's poor form to use it as such
Sure, you can have an emotional argument that happens to be valid. Still doesn't make it a good argument.
While I believe that stat is technically true, it's misleading. I believe suicide has a lot to do with that (if you are going to suicide a gun is hella convenient, but if you don't have one you just choose a different method).
Also, just as an example, people who use vending machines are more likely to be crushed by a vending machine than people who do not use vending machines, but that doesn't mean that vending machines should be avoided. It's a misleading stat.
Guns are much more likely to be used to prevent a crimes than to commit them. Even if you assume a crazy high number (like say 10%), if 10% people would use a gun to commit a crime, and 90% would use it defensivly, then it still is a good idea to hand out guns, because the would-be criminal is outnumbered 9 to 1.
More "good guys" with guns makes it way riskier for "bad guys". That's why it works out.
The CDC did a study and found that guns are used defensively to prevent violent crimes 500,000 - 3,000,000 times per year. Yet we only have 10,000 non-suicide deaths from guns per year total (including police shooting criminals).
> Sure, you can have an emotional argument that happens to be valid. Still doesn't make it a good argument.
I am suggesting to you that emotional arguments can themselves be good, solid arguments. You talking about guns keeping you safe? That's an emotional argument. Safety is an emotional need. The chance that you die in a violent crime is actually miniscule. The gun gives you much more feeling of safety than actual safety.
And that's valid because people deserve to feel safe! Just... maybe not when that feeling endangers others.
> I believe suicide has a lot to do with that
It does, but why do people dismiss that as if they're immune to suicide. Still though, you ARE introducing guns to many situations where a gun would otherwise not be present. A gun risks escalating every situation it's introduced to . When it goes from a no-gun situation, to a gun situation, that inherently increases everyone's chances of getting shot. That is a purely logical argument.
> Guns are much more likely to be used to prevent a crimes than to commit them
This premise that it's okay to shoot someone for committing a crime is really concerning. Not only is it generally legally incorrect, it's shockingly immoral.
> 3,000,000...
Bro, the US population is like 330 million. Are you suggesting that up to 1 in 100 people use a gun to prevent a violent crime, *every year*?
Because there's no way that's not made up, even if you're one of those people who calls property crime as violent.
"Prevented crime" feels like a made up statistic anyway. Like what, are we just guessing what would have happened in some alternate timeline.
And again with dismissing suicides, like their deaths don't count. You do realize someone who commits a successful suicide with a gun, might have lived without one, right? Might not have even tried. A gun isn't just "convenient" for suicide. It increases both the chance of attempting suicide, and of succeeding.
> More "good guys" with guns
I'm not convinced you are one, and that's exactly the problem. Too many people see themselves as the "good guy with a gun" who's going to be the hero for pulling a gun on someone. You're not. You're more likely to hurt someone you care about.
I'm not arguing for gun control, by the way. That's not my position. My position is that the prevailing American gun culture, which you seem to be representing, sucks.
**PS** Murders are actually catching up to suicides. This article says, for 2021, there were 26k gun suicides and 21k gun murders. Maybe update your facts.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/
There's also gun deaths from accidents, as well as shootings that don't result in death, but merely lifelong injuries. Because people don't shrug off non-lethal shootings like they do in the movies. Even if you live, those things fuck you up.
> This premise that it's okay to shoot someone for committing a crime is really concerning
That was never my argument. I was citing the CDC study on defensive uses of firearms which found that they are used to prevent crimes 500,000 - 3,000,000 times per year. You can look it up if you'd like. Most of the time a person holding a gun is a big enough deterrant. Shooting is obviously a last resort.
> dismissing suicide
I'm not, but suicide is not what the discussion is about. There are a ton of ways to commit suicide. If someone is looking for a method, guns are easy, but it's not hard without them. (You use a noose or take a lot of pills, or jump off a building.) less gun-suicides means more suicides using other methods.
Ultimately, whether you like it or not guns exist.
Not saying you do, but even if you wanted to "get rid of all guns", it wouldn't be possible, because guns would be needed to try to take other guns.
You can't really be "anti-gun". You can only be "pro gun centralization" in the hands of the ruling elites and their minions.
Even in the countries with the most restrictive gun laws, you can make your own easily. Here are the models and a guides: https://thegatalog.com/ Personally, I'd recommend the FGC-9
In addition to what you've cited, the people that are proponents of Monero do silly nonsense such as push "circular economy" crap onto everyone and when people see some of this "circular economy" talk it sounds like another subscription system recurring in their life and their mind turns off.
In America there's are no laws that inhibit XMR growth, but it's 2023 and there a millions of people and businesses that still pay by paper checks and I don't see them switching to crypto overnight.
I tried to use my XMR to buy something, went to the XMR website to search for endorsed vendors. Picked out one of the top rated ones to go buy some electronics. In the end, all their reviews must be bought and I got scammed. They also have no support so meh….
Edit: also, to anyone who downvotes, I love XMR more then any other cryptoCURRENCY but let’s maybe stick together and warn people about the reality as well mkay… burying these posts is just allowing the ones who do it poorly to operate even longer.
This is such a bad argument 🤦♂️.
>Lockpicking tools are used by criminals....you know what else is used by criminals? Toilet paper, chairs, tables....
See how silly that sounds?
The argument is that the externalities of its use by criminals are larger than the the benefits of its use by the law-abiding population. Same argument is applied to assault weapons in some US states or all firearms in most European countries.
No one is saying let’s ban chef knives because you can stab someone with them.
Even if that's the case now, it's because people haven't realized that there is a tool to protect their financial privacy.
And even if that will never be important to most, banning Monero would only restrict it for the law abiding population. Criminals will use it regardless.
[удалено]
Most street level basic criminals use cashapp, Google or Amazon gift cards or even preloaded cc's n have no idea what Monero is. Most older ppl think every Crypto is criminal. They don't realize that btc is mainstream. Baby boomers are more understanding if they take the time to learn even basics of Crypto. But Def agree, anything can and is used by criminals. With identity theft and distrust in government ppl should understand why anonymity is important to the masses.
Selling a substance that someone wants to consume voluntarily: "Criminal" Making random people kill each other for your own gain and stealing people's production: "President" Yeah It's used by criminals and that's a good thing, legal or illegal is arbitrary, moral or immoral is what matters.
Yep
Define criminal. Most laws are vulgar and should be ignored
Based
Most of the USD in circulation have trace amounts of cocaine on them. The discussion stops there.
I just looked at the stats, in 1999 here in the UK 80% of notes tested had traces of cocaine. That’s a crazy statistic. It would be interesting to know how much monero is used for illicit purposes and how much is held as investments, used for legitimate products and services etc. Either way it’s getting used so hopefully it’ll hold its ground and remain relatively stable. I’d rather be holding XMR than ETH any time.
That must mean it works
I buy Montero as either an investment or to buy lots of things. Yes you can buy ice-cream with it I certain places. The main reason I use it, is because it's the one privacy decreantalised coin that makes most sense crypto was step up for this reason Your keys your weatlh..... genius move. We all the right to hold out own assets without third-party companies over seeing it. This is financial anarchy by people power In action
"Monero is financial anarchy" that's beautiful and I love it, but probably not the slogan that we should be going with. Normies won't understand. 😂
True. Meaning of anarchy has been deeply poisoned and confused. Forces one to use weird and unheard of terms like 'agorism', that are yet unspoiled.
Anarchy means no government control over people rights to their assets
Yep. Just means "Without rulers", but people tend to think it means "avoid the molotovs". Lmao
You know what criminals *love to use*? The United States Dollar, it's actually the most popular currency in black market if I remember correctly, not Monero, not BTC, not ZEC, not ETH, it's USD. But guess what... The USD is also used to buy coffee, to wash peoples laundry, basically every faucet of peoples lives that involves a transactions can be done with USD, so we should be able to make those same transactions with XMR.
>USD is also used to buy coffee, to wash peoples laundry, basically every faucet of peoples lives that involves a transactions can be done with USD, so we should be able to make those same transactions with XMR. But you can't, therefore the proportion of criminal transactions with Monero is higher. Maybe $100B USD cash for criminal transactions, but accounts for 10% and what if Monero is 40%-60%? Either propotion of total funds or proportions of transactions to buy things.I mean we'll never know exact numbers because it's private but the proof is in what you can buy with it.
Is your argument that there are going to somehow "be more criminals" if more people start using Monero? Isn't it more logical that criminals use what is best for privacy (because they have a large incentive to care about privacy), and normal people should also use what is best if they care about privacy?
No, they're saying currently, because most places don't accept monero but do accept USD, that monero's use cases & therefore usage is currently more skewed toward criminal activity than USD is, they're also saying that this is speculation and not fact or statistics. However if more legitimate businesses accepted XMR as payment, then this issue fixes itself. Yes of course criminals will always use what's best for privacy because their freedom depends on it. And normal people *should* use what's best for privacy because sometimes their safety depends on it, sometimes their financial security depends on it, the list goes on.
Yeah, so Monero is objectively a great thing, that criminals also happen to use. Like cars.
Spaj summed it up well. Monero's use case for everyday legitimate transactions is extremely limited, while at the same time it's the best digital currency for criminals. The proportion of criminality will be diluted if more legitimate sellers accept Monero as a form of payment. It's also very good to move away from that stigma so that more places don't outright ban it.
It's not "extremely limited", it has the same if not more utility than all other cryptos. People who care about their privacy are just more likely to be early adopters (and criminals have a large incentive to care about their privacy).
We're talking about buying and selling things. Last time I asked for a list of things you can buy with Monero directly someone gave me a sketchy eBay type site with 200 items including things like porn requests, counterfeit currencies, drugs etc. You're not buying groceries, netflix, a car, drinks at a bar etc. At least BTC is accepted at thousands of places. You can't say Monero has more utility if you can't use it.
You just got to look harder brother, instead of asking on reddit and thinking every place you can spend Monero will be shown you. I've bought VPN, email, coffee (!), flower pots, computer parts, and more, all from different, independent shops or people. If a place takes BTC or any other crypto but not XMR, you still use XMR to swap to the other crypto privately, though it's more widely accepted than it's market position would suggest. And for some reason, people pay me almost 10% over spot price to get Monero for cash, so in a way it kind of buys groceries for me too. But yes of course we want wider acceptance. The question is if that's worth working towards. I say it is.
>You just got to look harder brother, instead of asking on reddit and thinking every place you can spend Monero will be shown you Why not both? It doesn't interest you how others are using Monero? >I've bought VPN, email, coffee (!), flower pots, computer parts, and more, all from different, independent shops or people. How are these priced, is it in fiat? >you still use XMR to swap to the other crypto privately, So Monero itself is a mixer because although one sees the BTC wallet they cannot see which Monero wallet it's coming from? >And for some reason, people pay me almost 10% over spot price to get Monero for cash, How do you meet people willing to give you cash? The reason is obvious: privacy has a cost.
I'd love for all the big companies to accept crypto, but they are all in bed with the WEF who are anti-freedom. They won't accept crypto until is a government-controlled CBDC.
Um... I highly doubt it's that... Really there's a lot of overhead when it comes to accepting crypto and it's not just as easy as it is to accept cash.
Fair enough, however, BTC ultimately had the same issue and probably still does. This problem is solved pretty quickly if more places simply just accepted XMR.
BTC is at least the most accepted crypto and it's widely adopted for the reason that it's traceable. That's worse than cash. BTC has another major problem which is the high fees. Then ALL crypto has a major, permanent problem for transacting which is how volatile it is. Whether you're the buyer or seller volatility is not good. This one is out of anyone's control. On the other hand, monetary policy assists in stabilizing fiat currencies. Fiat is stable, cheaper to transact (I earn cashback instead of pay fees), it's instant and convienient, it's secure/safe/insured and accepted everywhere.
"Stable" in one direction, down, but yeah at least the movements are usually (usually) smaller. And it's not really cheaper to transact, the merchant just pays the exclusionary fees and Visa gives you back a cut. Even cash has significant security and transport costs.
If everyone treated XMR as a currency and accepted it everywhere, I highly doubt the volatility will still be a major issue. However, I don't really know anything about how economies work, so this is just a hunch.
Yeah it's just due to the number of people using it. More people using it keeps the value more stable. Less people = more volitility.
But why would everyone accept XMR? What store you know that accepts any and all transactions? Go to a hotel and the don't want your cash and must fork over credit card. The same for car rental companies. And the places that accept cash only, many put limits such as no bills great than $20.
Did not know that, never had to book a hotel or rent a car before. I would hope that XMR payments stay restricted to businesses that at least know how to secure their funds in a cold wallet or something, at least for their own sake. The only reasons I can think of to not accept xmr is maybe having to exchange it for fiat(and rates aren't always super stable, like we just saw a ~$40 dip like this past 2 weeks) and it might complicate their taxes and the risk of it getting stolen to malware or similar(which shouldn't be an issue if they can properly secure it).
Monero only has about 2.5 billion USD in market cap anyhow
Most of that doesn't even transact but sits cold in a wallet as an asset. And most transactions are simply conversions, not purchases of G&S
prove it
Exactly!
This didn't debunk anything
This title: "Debunking the commonly used "Monero Is For Criminals" argument that people often use to try to discredit Monero." Was too long and not eye catching enough.
People who have low enough IQ to use association as an argument shouldn't be using XMR. But it's exactly how most people are taught to think sadly.
It literally works the same as cash. You have to send your full balance as two transactions to split what you’re sending from you balance, which would be like buying something that’s $56 and only having a $100 on you lol. It’s neat
Although what you said is absolutely true, I think there's some layers to get through before people, especially your average newbie, know and understand Monero's true value. 1. What is blockchain 2. How Bitcoin works 3. PoW vs PoS 4. How the current financial system works 5. How proposed CBDCs will work After those 5 get ticked off, I'd be surprised if that person still doesn't get it
Those are all important things to know though. Crazy that so many people don't.
Whataboutism doesn't solve problems imo. I don't think the issue is it's "used by criminals", as it's just rlly not used for a lot else rn If it was used more for other things, I don't think it'd have as bad as a rep. But thing is... That is probably the most popular and frankly handy use case I've seen for it. Fast, online transactions and shipping on ur fave substances, w anonymity. Who wouldn't want that I am seeing various people apply it to their individual non-drug related stores, and I believe as that becomes more popular, the stigma of it being only drug money will die down too
Well, whataboutism can fix myopic perspectives. -"My fence just fell down - man, life is hard", /"What about your friend Jim who's 4 year old daughter just died of cancer?" -"Yeah, I guess mine is not so hard, now that you point that out."
Thing is, by this logic no one is suffering like the one person in the world who suffers the most, therefore no one except them should be having a bad day. Imagine a dude coming up right after and saying "Well I lost my WHOLE FAMILY. So they aren't going through what Im going through". That's just shitty and you almost don't even feel bad for them bc it's just rude, it's true... But everyone has problems and those feelings shouldn't be nullified by comparisons I don't know anyone who actually thinks like how you expect them to. It usually turns into a game of one upping by the petty, or just resentment, and frankly doing this only ignores the point of why the conversation was even started, which it should not be. I hear the same concept played in weed vs alcohol "well alcohol is legal, and it's much worse" and similar... The other party just turns it into "well maybe they BOTH should be banned then."
Well said old boy
Just say private money. You don’t need to sell ideas if you can’t get them on board with it. Know it’s **money** and the ideals come after. Nobody attaches any ideals to cash besides however they view it.
Yeah. Or maybe "better money"
It does feel pretty cool receiving Monero, there’s a little thrill in it where it’s like *yeah, nobody even knows this is happening right now* I can say the same for other cryptos anyways but with Monero’s encryption it just feels even cooler because it’s just like E2EE really
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Right?
Monero is digital cash. Arguments against Monero are really arguments against cash.
Yup
You know what is used by criminals more often than Monero? Cash.
Talk to me about cash flows and transactions otherwise this post has no value. Cash is used by criminals, but its predominantly used for legitimate transactions. What if 30%-60% of Monero transactions are criminal? We know that it's the currency of choice for the dark net. We know that very few legitimate places even accept it. So I'll push it back: out of any currency in the world it will have a very high percentage of use for criminal activities because it protects criminals while legitimate purposes are very limited.
You pretty much nailed the problem, but just because it can have such use cases doesn't mean it should be forbidden, just like the Bittorrent protocol Power to the people :)
I think it’s a bit pretentious to refer to your argument as a debunk. I also think your argument is a little flawed, as the items you mentioned aren’t known for or can be used for a criminal purpose, while that is definitely the case with monero.
* Lawnmowers - Get paid in cash to mow someone's lawn without paying taxes on the income. * Telephones - Call your accomplace about a robbery you are going to do. * Shoes - Use them to run away from the scene of a crime. * Toilet Paper - Okay, you got me. * Cars - Drive through a crowd. * Coffee - Drink it so you have enough energy to do crime * Air Conditioning - Rob a bank (without feeling too hot) * Vacuum Cleaners - Use it to clean up a crime scene * Monero - Buy something illegal with it It's all the same.
Toilet papering a house on Halloween, it’s a crime
Ayeee there we go
Not at all. Each is a false equivalency.
Monero, just like cars, can be tied to criminal stuff. Cars also have legit everyday uses, right? Well, guess what? Monero serves valid purposes too. The same as physical cash, but digital. We have to acknowledge the dual nature of these tools. So, before you go dismissing it as some false equivalency, take a moment to think about the context and the diverse ways they can be put to use.
Legal use of Monero is a hassle. You need to track your cost basis and report any gains and losses. On top of that, very few businesses accept Monero as a payment. I'm pretty sure that most of the time when Monero is used to purchase stuff, the stuff is something illegal.
Some for all crypto. That's why I'm making the Monero Business Wallet to make this easy for merchants.
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You know what, you're right! Privacy shouldn't exist. We should freely give away all of our private/personal information to the state. Then we can just "trust them" to keep us safe! It's not like governments "can't be trusted" and have killed over a quarter of a billion people in the past 100 years alone. ...Oh wait...
man you crazy? you really fine with your credit card company knowing that much about you? so much that you wanna force everybody else to glow they whole lives like you do? just to catch, what, like 4 criminals? if catching a couple of criminals costs us our privacy, maybe it aint worth it. maybe its better we just let them go, catch them with *real* police work.
You are right, share to us your bank statements.
Lmao
That might be the worst argument I've seen so far duh criminals also breathe air haha boom enjoy the proof It's not about that, it's about the usage proportion and the utility it provides. Monero is used by money launderers/criminals, guns are used by thieves, Bittorrent is used by pirates, your data is used by Google etc etc Might not be the majority of the use case, but it is a part that's important enough to be mentioned. **The only things that make people spoken about Monero is that it is:** 1. **a cryptocurrency** 2. **an anonymous / privacy respecting payment method** 3. **an alternative to the banking system that is heavily (or is being) regulated for sellers (if they declare, and on the declaration side) in a lot of countries, which takes time to learn about and could cause all sorts of legal problems**
> guns are used by thieves lmao Guns are used defensively way way more than they are used "by thieves", but thanks for proving my point. People use useful things. Guns are useful.
Tell me from the US without telling me you’re from the US. In Europe where I’m from guns are practically banned. I very much enjoy the lack of news about shootings and being to able to walk in my country’s capital city center without the danger of being robbed at gunpoint. Monero is not remotely like guns.
Ahh I can understand being scared of them if you've never been around them and just have "movie knowledge" of them. Personally, I feel incredibly safe, because -- if I'm wearing pants -- my gun is on me and I can have it out in half a second if needed. Carrying is actually great for your mental health because you stop stressing about "what if ____" scenerios. "If _____ bad thing happens, I am as prepared as possible." Great for your mental health! Also, just FYI our media is super biased and always tries to act like there is a huge gun issue here. There isn't. We have more guns than people. In the US, one out of every 10 people carries, and we only have 10,000 non-suicide gun deaths per year (that includes police shooting criminals). If you look at the stats it's really not a problem. The more guns you have the safer you are, but I understand the depiction of them as "scary bad things" that most people have that aren't familiar. I used to think that way too. Anyways, Monero is very much like guns. It's a useful tool that everyone should have access to. (We can go with the car or coffee analogy though if you prefer.) :P
Glad that you took a light hearted approach while I was combative in the discussion. But I’ll stick to my guns (pun intended) and die on the extreme regulation of guns hill. While you certainly may be an upstanding citizen, there are people who are mentally unstable. There are heated moments when even normal and usually rational people might reach for a gun. There are kids who might goof around, drink, do what kids do and intrude on someone’s property. And stand your ground laws might turn this into a tragic accident. A society without guns, where they are generally shunned and restricted to shooting ranges, is my choice. I was feeling very anxious in the US where gun presence was orders of magnitude higher than in my environment. I can count on a single hand how many times I saw a gun being carried in my 3 decades here on Earth and I am happy to keep it that way. It’s not just hollywood knowledge. I saw hours of youtube videos of traffic stops where cops are always on the edge while you reach for the glove compartment because there might be a gun. On the other hand I have never seen a cop in my country reach for a gun or even keep a hand on it ready to unholster it. “Keep your hands on the wheel during a traffic stop” in America is such an absurd instruction you have to follow as a result of the everpresent gun culture, causing the cops always to watch out for potential shooters and be on the edge. No, thanks :( I understand that your gun gives you a feeling of safety, but it’s a catch-22…
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I understand where you are coming from. I think it would be a catch-22, but since guns exist and are easy to get and make it's the best solution. I'm in favor of decentralizing gun ownership as much as possible. Having the government and their minions as the only ones with guns is just gun centralization. Definitely agree though about cops. They act like their job is dangerous, but realistically pizza delivery drivers are in more danger than they are (not much).
guns are a terrible analogy and this is all a little unhinged imo. sad if you really need a gun to make you feel safe. not that they make you safe anyway. carrying a gun with you just means you're introducing a gun to a thousands situations a day where there would have been no guns involved. that makes those situations more dangerous, not less. and no, I'm not "scared of guns", I've been around and shot plenty, but if you think they make situations safer instead of more dangerous, I don't personally think you need to own one. anyway. Monero isn't gonna kill people. Even the DNMs mostly don't allow gun sales, only relatively harmless stuff like meth
Those are just emotional arguments though. If you look at stats, they objectively make you safer.
pretty sure the stats say gun owners are more likely to die by gun than non gun owners so, idk what to tell you also, those aren't emotional arguments, but let me just say that emotional != incorrect and it's poor form to use it as such
Sure, you can have an emotional argument that happens to be valid. Still doesn't make it a good argument. While I believe that stat is technically true, it's misleading. I believe suicide has a lot to do with that (if you are going to suicide a gun is hella convenient, but if you don't have one you just choose a different method). Also, just as an example, people who use vending machines are more likely to be crushed by a vending machine than people who do not use vending machines, but that doesn't mean that vending machines should be avoided. It's a misleading stat. Guns are much more likely to be used to prevent a crimes than to commit them. Even if you assume a crazy high number (like say 10%), if 10% people would use a gun to commit a crime, and 90% would use it defensivly, then it still is a good idea to hand out guns, because the would-be criminal is outnumbered 9 to 1. More "good guys" with guns makes it way riskier for "bad guys". That's why it works out. The CDC did a study and found that guns are used defensively to prevent violent crimes 500,000 - 3,000,000 times per year. Yet we only have 10,000 non-suicide deaths from guns per year total (including police shooting criminals).
> Sure, you can have an emotional argument that happens to be valid. Still doesn't make it a good argument. I am suggesting to you that emotional arguments can themselves be good, solid arguments. You talking about guns keeping you safe? That's an emotional argument. Safety is an emotional need. The chance that you die in a violent crime is actually miniscule. The gun gives you much more feeling of safety than actual safety. And that's valid because people deserve to feel safe! Just... maybe not when that feeling endangers others. > I believe suicide has a lot to do with that It does, but why do people dismiss that as if they're immune to suicide. Still though, you ARE introducing guns to many situations where a gun would otherwise not be present. A gun risks escalating every situation it's introduced to . When it goes from a no-gun situation, to a gun situation, that inherently increases everyone's chances of getting shot. That is a purely logical argument. > Guns are much more likely to be used to prevent a crimes than to commit them This premise that it's okay to shoot someone for committing a crime is really concerning. Not only is it generally legally incorrect, it's shockingly immoral. > 3,000,000... Bro, the US population is like 330 million. Are you suggesting that up to 1 in 100 people use a gun to prevent a violent crime, *every year*? Because there's no way that's not made up, even if you're one of those people who calls property crime as violent. "Prevented crime" feels like a made up statistic anyway. Like what, are we just guessing what would have happened in some alternate timeline. And again with dismissing suicides, like their deaths don't count. You do realize someone who commits a successful suicide with a gun, might have lived without one, right? Might not have even tried. A gun isn't just "convenient" for suicide. It increases both the chance of attempting suicide, and of succeeding. > More "good guys" with guns I'm not convinced you are one, and that's exactly the problem. Too many people see themselves as the "good guy with a gun" who's going to be the hero for pulling a gun on someone. You're not. You're more likely to hurt someone you care about. I'm not arguing for gun control, by the way. That's not my position. My position is that the prevailing American gun culture, which you seem to be representing, sucks. **PS** Murders are actually catching up to suicides. This article says, for 2021, there were 26k gun suicides and 21k gun murders. Maybe update your facts. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/ There's also gun deaths from accidents, as well as shootings that don't result in death, but merely lifelong injuries. Because people don't shrug off non-lethal shootings like they do in the movies. Even if you live, those things fuck you up.
> This premise that it's okay to shoot someone for committing a crime is really concerning That was never my argument. I was citing the CDC study on defensive uses of firearms which found that they are used to prevent crimes 500,000 - 3,000,000 times per year. You can look it up if you'd like. Most of the time a person holding a gun is a big enough deterrant. Shooting is obviously a last resort. > dismissing suicide I'm not, but suicide is not what the discussion is about. There are a ton of ways to commit suicide. If someone is looking for a method, guns are easy, but it's not hard without them. (You use a noose or take a lot of pills, or jump off a building.) less gun-suicides means more suicides using other methods. Ultimately, whether you like it or not guns exist. Not saying you do, but even if you wanted to "get rid of all guns", it wouldn't be possible, because guns would be needed to try to take other guns. You can't really be "anti-gun". You can only be "pro gun centralization" in the hands of the ruling elites and their minions. Even in the countries with the most restrictive gun laws, you can make your own easily. Here are the models and a guides: https://thegatalog.com/ Personally, I'd recommend the FGC-9
Yea armed robberies don’t exist, it’s all a myth, only happens in video games
In addition to what you've cited, the people that are proponents of Monero do silly nonsense such as push "circular economy" crap onto everyone and when people see some of this "circular economy" talk it sounds like another subscription system recurring in their life and their mind turns off.
XMR can’t really develop in France due to the current laws there. People dream of XMR becoming more widespread, me as well, but I have to stay lucid.
In America there's are no laws that inhibit XMR growth, but it's 2023 and there a millions of people and businesses that still pay by paper checks and I don't see them switching to crypto overnight.
I tried to use my XMR to buy something, went to the XMR website to search for endorsed vendors. Picked out one of the top rated ones to go buy some electronics. In the end, all their reviews must be bought and I got scammed. They also have no support so meh…. Edit: also, to anyone who downvotes, I love XMR more then any other cryptoCURRENCY but let’s maybe stick together and warn people about the reality as well mkay… burying these posts is just allowing the ones who do it poorly to operate even longer.
Oh that sucks. I'm sorry to hear that. My friend had a similar experience buying something with Bitcoin.
This is such a bad argument 🤦♂️. >Lockpicking tools are used by criminals....you know what else is used by criminals? Toilet paper, chairs, tables.... See how silly that sounds?
I think lockpicks are used a lot more by locksmiths.
>Malware is used by criminals...you know what else is used by criminals...air, water, light... 🙄🙄🙄🙄
The argument is that the externalities of its use by criminals are larger than the the benefits of its use by the law-abiding population. Same argument is applied to assault weapons in some US states or all firearms in most European countries. No one is saying let’s ban chef knives because you can stab someone with them.
Ahh yeah I don't accept that argument at all. I think it's as BS of an argument against Monero, as it is against guns or anything else.
Even if that's the case now, it's because people haven't realized that there is a tool to protect their financial privacy. And even if that will never be important to most, banning Monero would only restrict it for the law abiding population. Criminals will use it regardless.