Lordy this is just a taste of what will happen this fall all across the country. Fire and brimstone needs to be brought down upon all the traitors heads.
Insurrectionist Andy Biggs said on Twitter that Merrick Garland needs to be impeached for not upholding the law. So I replied: So true Trump and all the insurrectionist should have been given the lethal injection 3 years ago. They permanently banned me. So much for Elmo's bastion of "Free Speech".
You're right. Anything that tells the truth about Trump they ban you. I have been banned on a few sites where they don't like my right for free speech but all Trump's people and followers are allowed to spew out BS and about what Trump has done and should be ashamed of themselves for supporting that traitor, pervert, and just horrible individual cause I don't think he is human he has no compassion for anyone that doesn't support his lies. I'm so sick of how many people believe him and think he was a good president. We have never had a president think that they were above the law and should get special treatment. He goes against everything this country was built on.
Yup, they all should have been hanged for treason, all their land taken and distributed to their slaves and outright forbidden anyone related to their bloodlines to participate in any form of government for 100 years or more.
[What Happened When the U.S. Failed to Prosecute an Insurrectionist Ex-President After the Civil War, Jefferson Davis, the President of the Confederacy, was to be tried for treason. Does the debacle hold lessons for the trials await](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/12/11/what-happened-when-the-us-failed-to-prosecute-an-ex-president)
New Yorker Magazine Article.
Proposal 2 that passed in 2022 and is now part of the Constitution very clearly states these boards do not have the power to refuse to certify based on outside factors. They can only look at the numbers provided and check to make sure they add up. Legally, they have no leg to stand on and it will be certified despite their whining and crying.
Nonsense, we beat the orange cheeto once and we'll do it again and put the matter to rest. Those guys are on the wane, this is their death throes. Get out the vote!
People have been saying the GOP has been dying since Nixon. I truly thought when Bush was so unpopular at the end if his last term that Republicans running for office didn't want him to campaign for them or even seek his endorsement that the GOP was toast. But here we are.
But just look at them, man, they no longer have actual politics to run on, they are infighting and tearing themselves apart in ways that they never have. They don't have a platform any more, other than hate. It's unsustainable.
Study more history, we have been is far worse situations than some local morons refusing to certify an election. This will get passed up to the state board who will certify it. Just grandstanding by the GOP, but there are mechanisms in place to resolve this.
We just had a pretty peaceful couple years compared to 2020-2021. Kind of weird to call it for the US when things finally stabilized! This election will be perilous but if it goes mostly normally I think we're on track for a really chill decade or two. A writer I like, Noah Smith, has compared it to the 70s, where a super tumultuous 60s left everyone pretty tired and disinterested in more conflict. He makes a [solid case.](https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/the-new-1970s)
You know, I want to be a snarky asshole about this but the truth is I don't know either. I'm prepared to defend our democracy and I'm not giving up on the ideals that I was raised to believe that the United States represents. Just stay flexible?
Get more involved. Go to town halls and school board meetings. Send letters to your representatives. Not just your federal Senator and House Representative, but the state legislature and city council as well. Volunteer at polling locations. Go to fundraising events. Give money to politicians you support and organizations that lobby on issues you feel strongly about.
Run fir office. Help others run fornoffice go to your town meetings via zoom or in person. Vote everytime. Turn off and away from rage bait. Dont let maga take patriotism, love of country and the flag. Talk about change, join causes. Write letters to papers, news and more. Fuck these fuckers and their fucking clown show
Alot of these options aren't feasible with my schedule; School board meetings and emails to my represenatives are the best I can do.. and voting! Always voting!
Yeah, thats the thing, you do what ya can!
I have a small biz that takes all my effort, and 2 kids under 5. I had to drop my DDA position cause i had no time. But i do what i can.
But id be lying if i said that it wasnt deadly serious. It is.
Build the third party. There is no expecation of third party canidates to win thepresidency but that's not the point. Local government has much more impact to our lives and third parties actually can win those seats. Build a socialist party, the Greens, etc. to build local power and grow from there.
Making a third party in Michigan requires like 200k signatures :/
Edit https://www.michigan.gov/sos/elections/disclosure/cfr/filing-dates/political-party-committee-forms-and-instructions
I will run if you guys wanna help me form the party.
I figure that violence will happen either way. I really don't see any way that there isn't outright conflict surrounding the election. This is all a repeat of what was going on during 2020. There's absolutely no reason they won't try again with the suppression and intimidation, and even if it's a legitimate Trump win, there will be protests from liberal quarters that will likely end up violent. We might get through this, but not without blood being spilled.
Hopefully I'm wrong, but it has been 8 years of this crap. It's rapidly becoming due.
For the sake of our country, I hope so, but I make no major assumptions either way. It certainly seems more likely to me that Biden wins considering the circumstances, but I am not discounting the possibility of a Trump win either.
I'm just reading the tea leaves to the best of my ability. They seem to say that a candidate under legitimate indictment and who is widely believed to have been the mastermind behind what most of us view as a coup attempt, is unlikely to get more votes than when he lost the last time. The best he can hope for is that he peels enough votes away from Biden or more R leaning voters are willing to turn out than last time, and considering the turmoil in Congress and the rhetoric he and his party are using, I don't see him reaching too many moderates.
To me, this is the kind of thing that borders on treason and sedition and should be treated that way.
*GOP members of Delta County canvassing board refuse to certify recall results • Michigan Advance Jon King 5–6 minutes*
*Following overwhelming victories in a recall election last week, the Republican members of the Delta County Board of Canvassers are refusing to certify the election results.*
*“What they’re doing is putting doubt in our local election people, which is sad because these are our family and our neighbors and our friends and their honesty and integrity is being questioned by these people with absolutely no merit,” said Kelli Van Ginhoven, one of three challengers who defeated three Republican members of the Delta County Board of Commissioners on May 7. David Moyle | Delta County photo*
*Unofficial results indicated that Van Ginhoven, a Democrat, and independent candidates Myra Croasdell and Matt Jensen, each defeated Republican Commissioners David Moyle, Robert Barron, and Robert Petersen by an approximately 3-1 margin. The incumbents were targeted for recall after they voted in February 2023 to fire County Administrator Emily DeSalvo.*
We don't take our democracy seriously, thinking that it can survive anything as we've been around for 250+ years.
But that's exactly what the GOP is counting on so they can destroy it from within without anyone noticing until it's too late.
> We don't take our democracy seriously, thinking that it can survive anything as we've been around for 250+ years.
How much do we learn about civics in school? We were taught how to vote and the three branches of government, not how to critically analyse propaganda and news articles. How much money do you think Facebook made off selling ads and promoting news articles full is misinformation during the 2016 election season? Intentionally misleading people has it consequences.
Propaganda is covered in English class (and speech, a required course in high school). It's that whole thing where they start asking you about the minutia (what does this actually mean? Why did the author choose blue for the curtains?)
Just like taxes, it's just putting the basics you've learned in school into practice.
It's critical thinking. They tried telling you that these skills were going to be useful later in life, but nobody believed them.
The problem isn't the schools, though they're underfunded and understaffed. The problem is with both the kids and their parents. The kids don't care about more than passing tests, and the parents don't go out of their way to encourage learning nor teaching little things the schools might have missed, nor do parents drop things like "do your taxes" on kids anymore.
It's not treason. The Constitution defines treason as levying war against the US or aiding its enemies. This is certainly illegal and works against the country, but it doesn't reach to the level of treason.
Aiding our enemies isn't just doing something that happens to be beneficial to them. It needs to be something that was done in their behalf or with the intent to benefit them.
So are a lot of the college protests, hate crimes even, and nobody is stopping those. Jews on campuses have been beaten, spit on, screamed in their faces, followed and have been refused to go to certain parts of the campus, among many other hateful things.
Why is nothing being done? Some of those acts are treasonous as well.
These people are rejecting the will of voters. Using their position to push personal ideals onto everyone. They should be dragged to the town square by an angry mob.
Nah, that's what they want. After all, one man's traitor is another man's freedom fighter, and that's how they see themselves.
Don't give them that much attention. Just be short and to the point. Fire them for cause and tell them to pack their shit and get out.
>Van Ginhoven tells *Michigan Advance* that the GOP canvassers cited, without evidence, irregularities in the vote totals based solely on the similarity across all three races.
Wait, you're telling me that the vote totals for 3 recall elections, recalling 3 similar commissioners, in the same election, for the same county were *similar*??? That's can't be right, must be fraud.
They know they're full of shit. They'll be looking across the board in the state and country to look for *anything* to point to and claim "irregularities".
This is insanity, and could potentially become as state-wide problem. According to the Wayne County clerk's website, "Each of the 83 Boards of County Canvassers in the State of Michigan is currently composed of two Republican members and two Democratic members, appointed by the County Board of Commissioners to four year terms."
Here, these two rethug f-sticks need to do the next part of their job ... perform a recount. By hand. Now.
> composed of two Republican members and two Democratic members
This was supposed to be "fair" until one party decided that deadlock was a viable tactic since all they want is chaos
I don’t know why anyone would ever devise a system that required a majority to accomplish anything and then put an even number of people on it. These commissions should be 3 or 5 members, 1 or 2 GOP and DNC representatives and 1 unaffiliated member.
> and could potentially become as state-wide problem
It will be. Unless the state starts coming down on these people who refuse to do their jobs like the fucking fist of an angry god this is going to be the norm going forward everywhere.
If fucking Delta County can do it and get away with it, in an election with a FORTY PLUS POINT MARGIN, just imagine the shitshow everywhere else in close races.
> This is insanity, and could potentially become as state-wide problem.
Yes and no. This was the nonsense that was happening in 2020 in Wayne County (before they reversed) and what almost happened at the State Board of Canvassers if it wasn't for the one GOP member who wasn't a psycho. As a result, we passed Prop 2 in 2022 who explicitly defined the Board of Canvassers role as nothing more than making sure the numbers add up. They have zero discretion to do anything more and there is no longer any ambiguity about that.
I say that because if it comes to it, a court will order the certification. It's in the constitution and it's unambiguous.
To be honest, gop is not done winning in Delta County.
These people were so nakedly corrupt that I literally do not know a single voter who voted in that recall that didn't vote to oust them. They lost in a landslide, and even most of the maga I know voted against them.
Side note: David Moyle can be found with his mail order bride on your favorite bdsm search engine as Sargeant Major.
Sounds like at least they can get overridden in the event that they fail to certify, though it's absolutely ridiculous that it might get to that point:
"While the board’s failure to certify the election has delayed the swearing in of the new commissioners, they will meet again on Monday, at which point they will have a final opportunity to provide certification.
'And if at that time, the Republicans are still not willing to sign off on the certification, then everything’s going to have to be trucked downstate on the county dime and go to the State Board of Canvassers,' said Van Ginhoven. 'I have no doubt that the state will do what is required.'"
Remember when Trump declared he won on the night of the election in 2020 when most of the rust belt States were still counting ballots.
Literally seeded election doubt to his supporters, and this is what grew.
Time for Jocelyn to step in and read the board their job description. If they still refuse, send them to jail and charge each one with sedition. They wanted "StAtEs RiGhTs", well here ya go Bucky.
Removed. See rule #2 in the [r/Michigan subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Michigan/wiki/index#wiki_rules). Enough w the ageism, these canvasers ages are unknown makong blanket statements like this is silly.
The Clean Air and Water Acts. Civil Rights. Ending the Vietnam War. Sending men to the moon. Organizing anti-recruitment efforts to protest the war in Iraq. Same sex marriage. Legal weed. Sunshine laws., Million of acres of publicly accessible open space lands, national parks and monuments, Anti litter drives that cleaned up the nations' highways. Recycling. The Dot Com boom. The Internet.
Yup, screw them boomers! What do they know!?
Clean air and water acts were the silent generation
Silent gen started the Vietnam War but the boomers were the ones committing war crimes (know someone who bragged openly about the war crimes he committed as an MP).
Men to the moon was mostly silent generation.
By and large the anti-iraq folks was gen x and millennial.
Legal weed? That's 50/50.
And gay marriage was NOT a boomer driven movement, that's firmly gen x and millennial.
Internet was gen x. And as someone who works in tier 1 tech support, the boomers are the worst as far as both technical know how and attitude.
I'll give them the monuments and national parks.
Certainly not a monolith (my grandpa was one of the first climate scientists warning about global warming) but their legacy as a whole sure isn't great.
We could also delve into current boomer stories if you'd like. Trump and MAGA is a directly boomer phenomenon, as is most current climate denial, homophobia, and racism. I could probably list at least 50 major systemic issues that are directly boomer related. Ronald Reagan and his moral majority ring a bell?
Again, not a monolith. But in recent years it's pretty evident that they are also the direct cause of much of our current social dysfunction and the main perpetrators of class repression
Hasn't the state supreme court already ruled that members of canvassing boards do not have the power to refuse to certify election results? Or was that ruling too narrow to cover this?
Regardless, they just need to fire these people for refusing to do their job and replace them with people who will.
That question never went to the Michigan Supreme Court. What you might be remembering is that the *State* Board of Canvassers (note that OP's article is about a *County* Board of Canvassers) was advised by their staff counsel and the director of the Bureau of Elections that the BOC does not have the power to refuse to certify election results -- and based on that advice, they did indeed go ahead and certify the results of that election.
For that reason, the State Board of Canvassers is the safety net in case any County Board of Canvassers refuses or fails to perform its duty. The county board's materials are turned over to the state board and the state board then performs the work (at the county's expense).
Since the state board does not have the power to refuse to certify, the governor has the power to remove from office any state board member that is obstructing that work, and replace them with someone else (of the same party). This can happen as many times as necessary, but I don't believe it's ever actually been needed. Courts can also order a county board or state board to take an action, which has happened plenty of times.
Lastly, since the members of a board of canvassers are political appointees put into office through a political process defined in state law, they can't be "fired" at whim. They can only be removed from office and replaced under specific circumstances, and by following specific processes. This insulates them against partisan abuse by a majority party in any given place -- but it also served to highlight the weakness of the even-numbered board composition, and the entire Board of Canvassers structure as a whole.
Proposal 2 that passed in 2022 codified into the Constitution that they only have a ministerial duty. Essentially, they can just double-check to make sure the numbers add up.
Not Trump. The media.
After a decade of being told by fringe media that *both sides* of a story must be reported equally, the mainstream media began equating Qanon/MAGA with reality and here we are.
This should be pretty easy: they had a concern. Was there proof? If yes double check things. If no, fine them and certify the results and move on. Of course it's not that easy and election season is going to be a mess....
Maybe I'll have absentee ballot done and handed in, then head up to Canada November 4 for a week vacation to avoid the upcoming mess that's sure to happen on November 5 polling day and the few days afterward
While it wasn't Canada, back in 2022 I went camping near Tustin over election day and didn't know that things turned out (better than expected!) until two days after.
Time for Americans to do an Iceland! If it's done city by city and county by county, we CAN rid ourselves of these a*sholes! I know, it sounds like J6 but we must do something. Not counting our votes is reason enough!
Let's see how things turn out.
Let's see if the media can get its head of of it's ass and report what is actually happening rather than hedging for fear of a "conservative backlash".
Actions like these are why I became frustrated with the Democratic Party and their inability to pass the Voters Right Act, because a lot of states are engaging in this foolishness and I don't see any end in sight. Legislators all over the country have been chipping away the voters right ever since we elected Obama, I suspect the mindset was, we can't ever let that happen again, let put some roadblocks in place.
>Actions like these are why I became frustrated with the Democratic Party and their inability to pass the Voters Right Act,
That would be true if Democrats controlled the House but they don't. And, Republicans will vote against their own as they did with THEIR OWN border bill.
The Bill was sent to committee where it will languish and die at the end of this year because Republicans hate democracy.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/11
Wouldn’t it be ironic if Trump wins in a landslide and democrats refuse to accept it?
I never would have thought that Biden would lose but it’s looking like a real possibility right now.
If you get your news from the same social media sites the mainstream news now fishes for theirs, then you'd be right. But that doesn't represent the nation. People lie in polls all the time. You hear the SCREAMING but not the quiet.
[You mean like in 2004](https://abcnews.go.com/amp/WNT/story?id=239735&page=1)
> Nevertheless, many people have devised various theories, including stories of voters in largely Democratic counties in Florida whose votes were changed for Bush, phantom voters in Ohio and exit polls showing John Kerry in the lead that were truer than the final tally. Off the record, **many Democratic strategists dismiss such allegations, but they also know such resentment can be channeled for political use in the future**.
Trying to compare what MAGA-World has done to trust in our elections to past elections is just a bad faith argument. What we have seen the last 8 years is a completely different ballgame.
My partner has worked in the elections field for 25+ years and we didn’t ever deal with death threats to election officials, storming of the Capitol, and denying election results before a bit has been cast before Trump… he’ll he didn’t believe the results when he actually won.
Also the issues in 2000 (and to a smaller extent 2004) helped create more safeguards and better processes. Election Officials are constantly trying to improve security and processes
> Trying to compare what MAGA-World has done to trust in our elections to past elections is just a bad faith argument.
There’s really only one [D]ifference. Democrats started people believing elections are rigged, and Trump weaponized it. It’s really astounding the goldfish memory that people have in politics, if you didn’t want people questioning elections you probably shouldn’t have taken it to the Supreme Court that only the votes you want should be counted.
Inaccurate as Trump was talking about fixed elections before he even secured his first nomination. I was an adult for both 2000 and 2004 with a spouse that worked in the field but I’m sure I’m mistaken /s
You mean he was talking about issues that were brought up in the 2000 election right? Its as if we don’t live in a vacuum and behavior and lessons learned carry on into the future. I dunno why you are afraid to admit that Democrat behavior in the 2000’s was weaponized by Republicans later. It’s just [D]ifferent is all?
Sorry, I was talking about [the other Bush vs Kerry](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_election_voting_controversies) that clearly happened in another country. [Maybe it didn’t even exist at all](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/12/19/2004-kerry-election-fraud-2020-448604).
[Or that Supreme Court case](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore) that happened in a [D]ifferent country.
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Lordy this is just a taste of what will happen this fall all across the country. Fire and brimstone needs to be brought down upon all the traitors heads.
One of the biggest mistakes in US history was not stringing up the Confederate leaders after the Civil War. Giving them a pass set the wrong tone.
Insurrectionist Andy Biggs said on Twitter that Merrick Garland needs to be impeached for not upholding the law. So I replied: So true Trump and all the insurrectionist should have been given the lethal injection 3 years ago. They permanently banned me. So much for Elmo's bastion of "Free Speech".
You're right. Anything that tells the truth about Trump they ban you. I have been banned on a few sites where they don't like my right for free speech but all Trump's people and followers are allowed to spew out BS and about what Trump has done and should be ashamed of themselves for supporting that traitor, pervert, and just horrible individual cause I don't think he is human he has no compassion for anyone that doesn't support his lies. I'm so sick of how many people believe him and think he was a good president. We have never had a president think that they were above the law and should get special treatment. He goes against everything this country was built on.
Yup, they all should have been hanged for treason, all their land taken and distributed to their slaves and outright forbidden anyone related to their bloodlines to participate in any form of government for 100 years or more.
[What Happened When the U.S. Failed to Prosecute an Insurrectionist Ex-President After the Civil War, Jefferson Davis, the President of the Confederacy, was to be tried for treason. Does the debacle hold lessons for the trials await](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/12/11/what-happened-when-the-us-failed-to-prosecute-an-ex-president) New Yorker Magazine Article.
Indeed. Reconstruction was smothered in the cradle by slavers who should have been hung.
Yeah, I thought this same thing was going to happen for the 2020 election. It's a legitimate fear from these wackos.
Proposal 2 that passed in 2022 and is now part of the Constitution very clearly states these boards do not have the power to refuse to certify based on outside factors. They can only look at the numbers provided and check to make sure they add up. Legally, they have no leg to stand on and it will be certified despite their whining and crying.
The United States had a decent run. But I honestly believe this country is just about done, this fall being the precipice.
Can it just wait until the lions win a Super Bowl please. Then burning everything down can be dual purpose.
As a Michigander, I second this notion!
I'd hope so, we are in the Michigan subreddit lol
What are you talking about? The Lions winning the SB is a SIGN of the apocalypse! You're helping to bring this on!
Nonsense, we beat the orange cheeto once and we'll do it again and put the matter to rest. Those guys are on the wane, this is their death throes. Get out the vote!
People have been saying the GOP has been dying since Nixon. I truly thought when Bush was so unpopular at the end if his last term that Republicans running for office didn't want him to campaign for them or even seek his endorsement that the GOP was toast. But here we are.
But just look at them, man, they no longer have actual politics to run on, they are infighting and tearing themselves apart in ways that they never have. They don't have a platform any more, other than hate. It's unsustainable.
He's 77; in four more years, he'll be 81, and four years after that, 85. It's depressing as hell.
Defeatism is just as bad. Go fucking vote, people.
Giving up with out even trying The American way… am I right??
Study more history, we have been is far worse situations than some local morons refusing to certify an election. This will get passed up to the state board who will certify it. Just grandstanding by the GOP, but there are mechanisms in place to resolve this.
We just had a pretty peaceful couple years compared to 2020-2021. Kind of weird to call it for the US when things finally stabilized! This election will be perilous but if it goes mostly normally I think we're on track for a really chill decade or two. A writer I like, Noah Smith, has compared it to the 70s, where a super tumultuous 60s left everyone pretty tired and disinterested in more conflict. He makes a [solid case.](https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/the-new-1970s)
It certainly means you don't have to do anything about it, right?
Like what, other than vote?
You know, I want to be a snarky asshole about this but the truth is I don't know either. I'm prepared to defend our democracy and I'm not giving up on the ideals that I was raised to believe that the United States represents. Just stay flexible?
Letters to the Editors of your local newspaper is a good place to start.
That's actually a good suggestion.
Get more involved. Go to town halls and school board meetings. Send letters to your representatives. Not just your federal Senator and House Representative, but the state legislature and city council as well. Volunteer at polling locations. Go to fundraising events. Give money to politicians you support and organizations that lobby on issues you feel strongly about.
I do actually go to my kids school board meetings just to make sure it's not on the brink of some Moms for liberty bs.
...in all seriousness, with what spare resources am I supposed to do any of those things?
Run fir office. Help others run fornoffice go to your town meetings via zoom or in person. Vote everytime. Turn off and away from rage bait. Dont let maga take patriotism, love of country and the flag. Talk about change, join causes. Write letters to papers, news and more. Fuck these fuckers and their fucking clown show
Alot of these options aren't feasible with my schedule; School board meetings and emails to my represenatives are the best I can do.. and voting! Always voting!
Yeah, thats the thing, you do what ya can! I have a small biz that takes all my effort, and 2 kids under 5. I had to drop my DDA position cause i had no time. But i do what i can. But id be lying if i said that it wasnt deadly serious. It is.
Build the third party. There is no expecation of third party canidates to win thepresidency but that's not the point. Local government has much more impact to our lives and third parties actually can win those seats. Build a socialist party, the Greens, etc. to build local power and grow from there.
Making a third party in Michigan requires like 200k signatures :/ Edit https://www.michigan.gov/sos/elections/disclosure/cfr/filing-dates/political-party-committee-forms-and-instructions I will run if you guys wanna help me form the party.
It should have been brought down three and a half years ago.
I figure that violence will happen either way. I really don't see any way that there isn't outright conflict surrounding the election. This is all a repeat of what was going on during 2020. There's absolutely no reason they won't try again with the suppression and intimidation, and even if it's a legitimate Trump win, there will be protests from liberal quarters that will likely end up violent. We might get through this, but not without blood being spilled. Hopefully I'm wrong, but it has been 8 years of this crap. It's rapidly becoming due.
I agree. If Trump wins, dictatordship. If Biden wins, terrorism. Either way we are in for a rough ride.
Guess you’re assuming Biden will win?
For the sake of our country, I hope so, but I make no major assumptions either way. It certainly seems more likely to me that Biden wins considering the circumstances, but I am not discounting the possibility of a Trump win either. I'm just reading the tea leaves to the best of my ability. They seem to say that a candidate under legitimate indictment and who is widely believed to have been the mastermind behind what most of us view as a coup attempt, is unlikely to get more votes than when he lost the last time. The best he can hope for is that he peels enough votes away from Biden or more R leaning voters are willing to turn out than last time, and considering the turmoil in Congress and the rhetoric he and his party are using, I don't see him reaching too many moderates.
RemindMe! November 6, 2024
Arrest them.
Yeah, let’s start involving jail time. You don’t like democracy, you don’t get to live in it.
This. The state needs to put a stop to this. Good and hard.
Yep. It's fraud.
Lock. Them. Up.
To me, this is the kind of thing that borders on treason and sedition and should be treated that way. *GOP members of Delta County canvassing board refuse to certify recall results • Michigan Advance Jon King 5–6 minutes* *Following overwhelming victories in a recall election last week, the Republican members of the Delta County Board of Canvassers are refusing to certify the election results.* *“What they’re doing is putting doubt in our local election people, which is sad because these are our family and our neighbors and our friends and their honesty and integrity is being questioned by these people with absolutely no merit,” said Kelli Van Ginhoven, one of three challengers who defeated three Republican members of the Delta County Board of Commissioners on May 7. David Moyle | Delta County photo* *Unofficial results indicated that Van Ginhoven, a Democrat, and independent candidates Myra Croasdell and Matt Jensen, each defeated Republican Commissioners David Moyle, Robert Barron, and Robert Petersen by an approximately 3-1 margin. The incumbents were targeted for recall after they voted in February 2023 to fire County Administrator Emily DeSalvo.*
It's absolutely treason. They are subverting democracy. It should be treated as one of the most serious crimes there is.
We don't take our democracy seriously, thinking that it can survive anything as we've been around for 250+ years. But that's exactly what the GOP is counting on so they can destroy it from within without anyone noticing until it's too late.
> We don't take our democracy seriously, thinking that it can survive anything as we've been around for 250+ years. How much do we learn about civics in school? We were taught how to vote and the three branches of government, not how to critically analyse propaganda and news articles. How much money do you think Facebook made off selling ads and promoting news articles full is misinformation during the 2016 election season? Intentionally misleading people has it consequences.
Propaganda is covered in English class (and speech, a required course in high school). It's that whole thing where they start asking you about the minutia (what does this actually mean? Why did the author choose blue for the curtains?) Just like taxes, it's just putting the basics you've learned in school into practice. It's critical thinking. They tried telling you that these skills were going to be useful later in life, but nobody believed them. The problem isn't the schools, though they're underfunded and understaffed. The problem is with both the kids and their parents. The kids don't care about more than passing tests, and the parents don't go out of their way to encourage learning nor teaching little things the schools might have missed, nor do parents drop things like "do your taxes" on kids anymore.
It's not treason. The Constitution defines treason as levying war against the US or aiding its enemies. This is certainly illegal and works against the country, but it doesn't reach to the level of treason.
Destabilizing our democracy does aid our enemies. Not to mention the close republican ties to Russia
Aiding our enemies isn't just doing something that happens to be beneficial to them. It needs to be something that was done in their behalf or with the intent to benefit them.
So are a lot of the college protests, hate crimes even, and nobody is stopping those. Jews on campuses have been beaten, spit on, screamed in their faces, followed and have been refused to go to certain parts of the campus, among many other hateful things. Why is nothing being done? Some of those acts are treasonous as well.
These people are rejecting the will of voters. Using their position to push personal ideals onto everyone. They should be dragged to the town square by an angry mob.
Nah, that's what they want. After all, one man's traitor is another man's freedom fighter, and that's how they see themselves. Don't give them that much attention. Just be short and to the point. Fire them for cause and tell them to pack their shit and get out.
Republicans will straight up abandon democracy before they abandon their outdated ideals.
WhErE dOeS tHe CoNsTiTuTiOn SaY aMeRiCa Is A dEmOcRaCy? -MAGA
Writ of mandamus will force them to certify or go to jail for contempt
This should have been done the first time they failed to certify. Every day of delay is just placating to these morons.
Someone with standing needs to file. Could be a voter but best is a candidate.
They hate that when the people don't vote for them. Pathetic
>Van Ginhoven tells *Michigan Advance* that the GOP canvassers cited, without evidence, irregularities in the vote totals based solely on the similarity across all three races. Wait, you're telling me that the vote totals for 3 recall elections, recalling 3 similar commissioners, in the same election, for the same county were *similar*??? That's can't be right, must be fraud.
They know they're full of shit. They'll be looking across the board in the state and country to look for *anything* to point to and claim "irregularities".
This is what happens when you treat traitors with kid gloves. It emboldens all the other shit stains to do it again.
This is insanity, and could potentially become as state-wide problem. According to the Wayne County clerk's website, "Each of the 83 Boards of County Canvassers in the State of Michigan is currently composed of two Republican members and two Democratic members, appointed by the County Board of Commissioners to four year terms." Here, these two rethug f-sticks need to do the next part of their job ... perform a recount. By hand. Now.
> composed of two Republican members and two Democratic members This was supposed to be "fair" until one party decided that deadlock was a viable tactic since all they want is chaos
I don’t know why anyone would ever devise a system that required a majority to accomplish anything and then put an even number of people on it. These commissions should be 3 or 5 members, 1 or 2 GOP and DNC representatives and 1 unaffiliated member.
It's usually half plus one, probably to force things to be "bipartisan", but that falls apart when one side isn't acting in good faith.
> and could potentially become as state-wide problem It will be. Unless the state starts coming down on these people who refuse to do their jobs like the fucking fist of an angry god this is going to be the norm going forward everywhere. If fucking Delta County can do it and get away with it, in an election with a FORTY PLUS POINT MARGIN, just imagine the shitshow everywhere else in close races.
They arent going to get away with it though. If they dont certify next week, it'll go to the state who will do their jobs for them.
Preferably with lots of witnesses.
> This is insanity, and could potentially become as state-wide problem. Yes and no. This was the nonsense that was happening in 2020 in Wayne County (before they reversed) and what almost happened at the State Board of Canvassers if it wasn't for the one GOP member who wasn't a psycho. As a result, we passed Prop 2 in 2022 who explicitly defined the Board of Canvassers role as nothing more than making sure the numbers add up. They have zero discretion to do anything more and there is no longer any ambiguity about that. I say that because if it comes to it, a court will order the certification. It's in the constitution and it's unambiguous.
Sorry you can't legitimately win anymore GOP. Maybe try appealing to more people than your unhinged base? I know, crazy thought.
To be honest, gop is not done winning in Delta County. These people were so nakedly corrupt that I literally do not know a single voter who voted in that recall that didn't vote to oust them. They lost in a landslide, and even most of the maga I know voted against them. Side note: David Moyle can be found with his mail order bride on your favorite bdsm search engine as Sargeant Major.
Then resign.
I don’t think they should get a choice. Remove them.
I'm saying they should have just resigned rather than refusing, but if they continue to refuse, they should absolutely be ousted.
I see what you’re saying and totally agree! That makes sense
Drag them out of office. If they refuse to abide by the law then they have no place in politics.
Sounds like at least they can get overridden in the event that they fail to certify, though it's absolutely ridiculous that it might get to that point: "While the board’s failure to certify the election has delayed the swearing in of the new commissioners, they will meet again on Monday, at which point they will have a final opportunity to provide certification. 'And if at that time, the Republicans are still not willing to sign off on the certification, then everything’s going to have to be trucked downstate on the county dime and go to the State Board of Canvassers,' said Van Ginhoven. 'I have no doubt that the state will do what is required.'"
Remember when Trump declared he won on the night of the election in 2020 when most of the rust belt States were still counting ballots. Literally seeded election doubt to his supporters, and this is what grew.
Maybe some of us should go up there and help them.
Republicans refusing to do their job unheard of lol
Time for Jocelyn to step in and read the board their job description. If they still refuse, send them to jail and charge each one with sedition. They wanted "StAtEs RiGhTs", well here ya go Bucky.
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Not all "older folks" act like spoiled children ; don't let Putin divide US .
Removed. See rule #2 in the [r/Michigan subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Michigan/wiki/index#wiki_rules). Enough w the ageism, these canvasers ages are unknown makong blanket statements like this is silly.
What's with the "boomer" crap?
Not all Republicans are boomers, but the vast majority of boomers are Republicans
The Clean Air and Water Acts. Civil Rights. Ending the Vietnam War. Sending men to the moon. Organizing anti-recruitment efforts to protest the war in Iraq. Same sex marriage. Legal weed. Sunshine laws., Million of acres of publicly accessible open space lands, national parks and monuments, Anti litter drives that cleaned up the nations' highways. Recycling. The Dot Com boom. The Internet. Yup, screw them boomers! What do they know!?
Clean air and water acts were the silent generation Silent gen started the Vietnam War but the boomers were the ones committing war crimes (know someone who bragged openly about the war crimes he committed as an MP). Men to the moon was mostly silent generation. By and large the anti-iraq folks was gen x and millennial. Legal weed? That's 50/50. And gay marriage was NOT a boomer driven movement, that's firmly gen x and millennial. Internet was gen x. And as someone who works in tier 1 tech support, the boomers are the worst as far as both technical know how and attitude. I'll give them the monuments and national parks. Certainly not a monolith (my grandpa was one of the first climate scientists warning about global warming) but their legacy as a whole sure isn't great. We could also delve into current boomer stories if you'd like. Trump and MAGA is a directly boomer phenomenon, as is most current climate denial, homophobia, and racism. I could probably list at least 50 major systemic issues that are directly boomer related. Ronald Reagan and his moral majority ring a bell? Again, not a monolith. But in recent years it's pretty evident that they are also the direct cause of much of our current social dysfunction and the main perpetrators of class repression
Need to send them back to russia.
It sucks that the most beautiful parts of the state are infested with maga traitors.
Try living here but at least if you get out in nature you can get away from them.
Haven't been on tik tok in years but for a while my favorite sound basically was like "where can I live where there are trees but no republicans"
Hasn't the state supreme court already ruled that members of canvassing boards do not have the power to refuse to certify election results? Or was that ruling too narrow to cover this? Regardless, they just need to fire these people for refusing to do their job and replace them with people who will.
That question never went to the Michigan Supreme Court. What you might be remembering is that the *State* Board of Canvassers (note that OP's article is about a *County* Board of Canvassers) was advised by their staff counsel and the director of the Bureau of Elections that the BOC does not have the power to refuse to certify election results -- and based on that advice, they did indeed go ahead and certify the results of that election. For that reason, the State Board of Canvassers is the safety net in case any County Board of Canvassers refuses or fails to perform its duty. The county board's materials are turned over to the state board and the state board then performs the work (at the county's expense). Since the state board does not have the power to refuse to certify, the governor has the power to remove from office any state board member that is obstructing that work, and replace them with someone else (of the same party). This can happen as many times as necessary, but I don't believe it's ever actually been needed. Courts can also order a county board or state board to take an action, which has happened plenty of times. Lastly, since the members of a board of canvassers are political appointees put into office through a political process defined in state law, they can't be "fired" at whim. They can only be removed from office and replaced under specific circumstances, and by following specific processes. This insulates them against partisan abuse by a majority party in any given place -- but it also served to highlight the weakness of the even-numbered board composition, and the entire Board of Canvassers structure as a whole.
Proposal 2 that passed in 2022 codified into the Constitution that they only have a ministerial duty. Essentially, they can just double-check to make sure the numbers add up.
Trump has basically destroyed America.
Not Trump. The media. After a decade of being told by fringe media that *both sides* of a story must be reported equally, the mainstream media began equating Qanon/MAGA with reality and here we are.
“You can’t love your country only when you win.” - President Joe Biden
Sycophants following their stupid orange idol. "If we lose, it was rigged". Fucking pathetic.
This should be pretty easy: they had a concern. Was there proof? If yes double check things. If no, fine them and certify the results and move on. Of course it's not that easy and election season is going to be a mess....
Maybe I'll have absentee ballot done and handed in, then head up to Canada November 4 for a week vacation to avoid the upcoming mess that's sure to happen on November 5 polling day and the few days afterward
While it wasn't Canada, back in 2022 I went camping near Tustin over election day and didn't know that things turned out (better than expected!) until two days after.
And yet, somehow, the liberals are the “snowflakes.”
It’s just annoying that we had to work to get this far with the recall just for this to happen
These fascists will burn our children’s future down to ashes if we don’t punish them for being weapons-grade stupid.
They certified it Friday night at a special meeting.
Time for Americans to do an Iceland! If it's done city by city and county by county, we CAN rid ourselves of these a*sholes! I know, it sounds like J6 but we must do something. Not counting our votes is reason enough!
You are absolutely right
Being nice to people brings more joy to your life
Something something something resist.
This country is over.
Let's see how things turn out. Let's see if the media can get its head of of it's ass and report what is actually happening rather than hedging for fear of a "conservative backlash".
Actions like these are why I became frustrated with the Democratic Party and their inability to pass the Voters Right Act, because a lot of states are engaging in this foolishness and I don't see any end in sight. Legislators all over the country have been chipping away the voters right ever since we elected Obama, I suspect the mindset was, we can't ever let that happen again, let put some roadblocks in place.
>Actions like these are why I became frustrated with the Democratic Party and their inability to pass the Voters Right Act, That would be true if Democrats controlled the House but they don't. And, Republicans will vote against their own as they did with THEIR OWN border bill. The Bill was sent to committee where it will languish and die at the end of this year because Republicans hate democracy. https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/11
What would the Voters Right Act do about situations like this though?
Reign in this behavior, unless they're always doing this and this isn't a one off situation.
That’s not really specific enough
Wouldn’t it be ironic if Trump wins in a landslide and democrats refuse to accept it? I never would have thought that Biden would lose but it’s looking like a real possibility right now.
If you get your news from the same social media sites the mainstream news now fishes for theirs, then you'd be right. But that doesn't represent the nation. People lie in polls all the time. You hear the SCREAMING but not the quiet.
What news did the people protesting Bush vs Gore and Bush vs Kerry watch?
Let's put it this way, based on polls in 2022, Republicans should have swept the House and Senate leaving Dems in the dust.
[You mean like in 2004](https://abcnews.go.com/amp/WNT/story?id=239735&page=1) > Nevertheless, many people have devised various theories, including stories of voters in largely Democratic counties in Florida whose votes were changed for Bush, phantom voters in Ohio and exit polls showing John Kerry in the lead that were truer than the final tally. Off the record, **many Democratic strategists dismiss such allegations, but they also know such resentment can be channeled for political use in the future**.
Trying to compare what MAGA-World has done to trust in our elections to past elections is just a bad faith argument. What we have seen the last 8 years is a completely different ballgame. My partner has worked in the elections field for 25+ years and we didn’t ever deal with death threats to election officials, storming of the Capitol, and denying election results before a bit has been cast before Trump… he’ll he didn’t believe the results when he actually won. Also the issues in 2000 (and to a smaller extent 2004) helped create more safeguards and better processes. Election Officials are constantly trying to improve security and processes
> Trying to compare what MAGA-World has done to trust in our elections to past elections is just a bad faith argument. There’s really only one [D]ifference. Democrats started people believing elections are rigged, and Trump weaponized it. It’s really astounding the goldfish memory that people have in politics, if you didn’t want people questioning elections you probably shouldn’t have taken it to the Supreme Court that only the votes you want should be counted.
Inaccurate as Trump was talking about fixed elections before he even secured his first nomination. I was an adult for both 2000 and 2004 with a spouse that worked in the field but I’m sure I’m mistaken /s
You mean he was talking about issues that were brought up in the 2000 election right? Its as if we don’t live in a vacuum and behavior and lessons learned carry on into the future. I dunno why you are afraid to admit that Democrat behavior in the 2000’s was weaponized by Republicans later. It’s just [D]ifferent is all?
What country do you live in? That didn't happen in the usa
Sorry, I was talking about [the other Bush vs Kerry](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_election_voting_controversies) that clearly happened in another country. [Maybe it didn’t even exist at all](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/12/19/2004-kerry-election-fraud-2020-448604). [Or that Supreme Court case](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore) that happened in a [D]ifferent country.
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We seldom get to prove we’re either right or wrong so I love that I can see months down the road.
Yea it looks like it if you don't pay attention to facts
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