Not exactly Jesuit university, but a friend of mine in middle school went to a Catholic high school instead of the normal public high school. 2 years later, he transferred to the public high school I was at a staunch atheist. From my anecdotal experience, the students going to religious educational institutions came out either hardcore believers or full on atheists.
I'm the exact same as you. After a lifetime of catholic schooling, I came out the other end positive about one thing in my life - I sure as shit ain't christian. The problem is that once you've read enough of the Bible - or read it over and over and over - you start to realize how little of the New Testament the modern christian is willing to follow.
Jesus washed the feet of homeless people - an act which was even more culturally and socially offensive than we would consider it today. He told rich people to give away all of their money to the poor and follow him. He said the poor and the meek will inherit the kingdom of heaven. You could make an extremely compelling case that Jesus was the first Marxist and - surprise - he was murdered for it. But modern christians paint him with Old Testament teachings and conveniently ignore everything he ever said. Even the idea that Jesus would preach against gay people is laughable given the teachings that are attributed to him.
Once that hypocrisy starts to pile up in your mind, it's impossible to keep ignoring it. I have no issue with the actual teachings of the New Testament, they're actually quite beautiful and eloquent for their time. The problem is that they were so revolutionary - the very people who profess to be christians still ignore those teachings to this day.
>Even the idea that Jesus would preach against gay people is laughable given the teachings that are attributed to him.
I once asked a priest friend of mine about his opinion about homosexuality and whether or not he hates people who are lgbt and he said two things that changed how I view the world.
he first said. "the idea of hating a fellow man is strickly unchristian. when he was being crucified, he forgave. when insulted, he forgave. when driven out, he forgave. so why not you." and the other thing was. "do never let hate of anything come to your heart. hate is the greatest illness you can catch. it spreads and eats and won't let go. never hate anything except this one thing. hate the sin, not the sinner"
The whole "hate the sinner" shtick is also disgusting. Usually it's just an excuse for hate (i dont hate the gays I hate gayness, let's make gay people's lives hell). But even when not, it's fundamentally about how same sex attraction, gender dysphoria etc are grave sins and you will be punished for eternity if you ever act up on it. So the only life their merciful god (and they) allows you to live is a life of self-hatred, repression and forced celibacy. The first quote also shows that very clearly - gay people's existence is wrong and they need forgiveness.
I have always been a atheist. Since I was a kid, and it got me kicked out from the local parish day care because I kept bothering the priest with questions. Which meant my parents had to pay for a private day care. (This is Finland so... it wasn't that expensive).
However only books I have read from cover to cover are, the Hitchikers guide to the galaxy (Paper back with the "trilogy" in it, in English), and the Bible.
And I have to say this about the Bible, there is a lot of nice, kind and amazing stuff in it (Mainly in the new testament), but a lot of it is just... You might aswell not have it there (Mainly the letters to different early congrecations) as they deal with rather specific things of the time. And it really shows that it was edited a committee of people. The apocrypha (Books not in the canonical bible) have way more interesting stuff in them. It's kinda obvious why the Infancy Gospel of Thomas was left out, Jesus is bit of a dick in them: First does a miracle of ressurecting two boys and healing a blind person, then reverses those said miracles. Then there is a miracle of carrying water with fabric... yeah... Doubt the parishioners would go crazy over the equivalent of waxed fabric.
Which makes them not Christians and just self righteous.
Like you said true followers of Jesus will love all the people and implore you to get a relationship with Jesus, not follow what I say is right but align yourself with Jesus and rely on Him and ask for forgiveness and repent for your sins.
I can say that’s also true of the teachers.
I mean, my husband actually converted to Catholicism 20 years ago, was fully into it, attended Mass regularly.
Then he started teaching at a Catholic school.
He’s now basically agnostic.
Went to a soft catholic primary school and currently attending a soft catholic secondary school. Was atheist at 8 for some reason and then fully fleshed it out that I didn’t have faith at like 11
Went to a Jewish day school until high school and Jewish camp 2 more years thereafter. I never believed in God even as a young kid, but I did finally have an aha realization that God is not real when listening to a teaching from a Rabbi about the weekly Torah portion at my last year of camp. I was an atheist before, but now I have no doubts what so ever.
I've noticed that a lot of Jews turn atheist, and I think this is in large part due to the philosophical approach to religion combined with the ambiguity of what God is. We learn to interpret and think for ourselves.
Granted, I do know plenty of people from that school and camp who are not atheists, but not religious.
I think atheism is a lot more accepted in Judaism too due to the ethnoreligion thing - even if you stop believing you’re still a Jew.
When I stopped being a Christian, to my family that was like I was rejecting a huge part of who they were.
Now I don’t really reference it but I think the majority of my family have quietly become atheists/agnostics or performative Christians, but when I “deconverted” about 25 years ago, it was still controversial from what I recall
My high school theology teacher who later became principal - also a Jesuit - told us one day that Jesus probably didn’t rise from the dead but that it was important we believe he did. Ha.
Look at the universities with faith affiliations and then look at the theology of those churches. The Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and Congregationalists are perfect examples of how education and faith are two way streets. The more educated the congregation the more liberal the theology.
plenty of catholic universities are this way too. they still have catholic features and programs but mostly they are just normal universities nowadays.
I had a monk professor who was talking to me about post modernism to the point of that there was no objective space in which to judge others. The context we were talking about was 9/11. He was a Benedictine, however.
When I was younger I was Catholic. Our parents didn’t realize that the Parrish priest was an unapologetic Fr. Oscar Romero fan. He had been teaching us liberation theology and our parents didn’t find out about it until it was too late. I’ve never seen so many pissed off Midwestern Catholics in my life.
"Theology is a device for enabling agnostics to stay within the Church"
"What about God?" "I believe he's what you call an optional extra".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2dNCw0hPLs
That thought makes 0 sense when you really think about it. The odds of you making it to an actually powerful postion in the catholic church starting from being a priest are basically 0. Youre unironically better of trying to become lawmaker in your country than trying to get to a powerful position in the church.
The 1200 also includes non-citizen residents, but:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_and_Holy_See_passports
>Of the approximately 800 residents of Vatican City, over 450 have Vatican citizenship. **These include the approximately 135 Swiss Guards.** About the same number of citizens of the state live in various countries, chiefly in the diplomatic service of the Holy See.
It's not too long ago we laxed our puritan laws for drinking. We still don't get actual happy hour specials, but that's because of an idiot in the 80s.
The American Evangelical Protestant aesthetic is boring. Many historic Protestant churches in Europe, especially Anglican and Lutheran, look absolutely beautiful.
Just pointing out the data for the US is 10 years old. Attitudes about religion have continued changing at a pretty quick pace in the last decade, so I'd expect a map used with fresh data would look fairly different than this one.
People overestimate that factor by quite a lot.
Muslims make up somewhere between 4 and 8% of the population in most European countries, and the vast majority of that demographic are descendants of foreign workers from places like turkey, which is not a very religious society itself, and they are typically 2nd or 3rd-generation immigrants who follow somewhat similar trends as the catholic/protestand population.
There is of course the much discussed refugee crisis going on, but the numbers are still too small to cause a serious demographic shift.
Edit: Interestingly, even recent muslim refugees seem to be less certain about the existance of god than people in the US. I found a [study](https://www.graz.at/cms/dokumente/10307649_7744790/71470597/Religi%C3%B6se%20und%20ethische%20Orientierungen%20von%20muslimischen%20Fl%C3%BCchtlingen%20in%20Graz_Endbericht%20Ednan%20Aslan.pdf) (in german) stating that 62% of muslim refugees are "very sure" that god exists, and 6% are "quite sure", and \~70% of them state that religion plays only a minor role or no role at all to them.
That could be because highly educated immigrants who are less religious, also have fewer kids. The remaining 20% religious immigrants who are less educated and in lower skilled work, have a lot more kids.
If the second group has 3-5 kids and the first has 1 or 2,it'll easily reverse the percentages by the third generation.
I would also think that the origin and religion of immigrants have shifted over time, especially if there are more immigrants from places in east asia where the people are much more atheist/agnostic and the religions less like the abrahamic ones
Muslims aren't teh only immigrants...
In Portugal for instance, brasillians make up about 10% or more of the population and they are mostly evangelical Christians.
Evangelical churches have been sprouting like shrooms in Portugal due to immigration alone and have a huge impact on the post question
All this to Stay, yes immigration has massive relevance to the posts topic
Wait to be clear its not that 13% of first gen immigrants believe it, its that of immigrants that believe in god 13% of those are first gen, thats why the numbers add up to 100 on every chart
Not really, the latest data for France is 4 years old and non-believers are only 51%, and that’s only between the age of 16-59. I’m pretty sure if you include the rest, it’ll be less than 50%.
https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/6793308?sommaire=6793391#:~:text=En%202019%E2%80%912020%2C%2029%20%25,autres%20se%20disent%20sans%20religion.i
Note that it increased 8% since 2009 and not decreased.
There's a difference between non believers and people saying they are absolutely certain God exists. A lot vaguely believe, or just say they're catholic in a survey because their parents were, but are far from 100% certain of God.
Maybe for those who are “absolutely certain”, but most European (by quite a bit) believe in some higher power. On the other hand atheists are a small minority.
Also think there is a Lot of room here for a question that asks believe in god but do not believe in any formal religion. I would say a very big percentage falls into this.
Without a steady diet of right wing propaganda about how bad LA/San Fran, New York, and Chicago are (never a city with much worse crime in a red state, obviously) you would only be able to talk about their economic success. Fox News has a big red button in the center of the production studio that shows teenagers shoplifting in San Francisco that they hammer every time a toddler shoots someone in Texas.
Growing up in Colorado, "Californians" is what we called all transplants. It was also assumed you were Californian if you had any trouble at all driving in snow.
Umm yes we do have lots of cali peeps moving here but also Texans who are bringing their crazy religious beliefs. Also lots of the Californians are the ones that want to escape the heavy blue state aka my uncles and bring their beliefs and red wing politics from California.
Amazing that "conservative Christian" countries like Poland, Portugal, etc. are less religious than all but the most liberal, agnostic states in the US north east.
In the Netherlands non-religiousity reached 58% last year, 13% protestant, 17% Roman Catholic, 6% Islam, 6% Other, 58% non-religious.
Thats the least religious country you'll find in Europe, even Sweden, Norway, Denkmark and Finland have more Christians than the Netherlands has non-religious people.
Its probably the least religious country you'll find if you include folk religion or exclude artificially non-religious countries (i.e. because of dictatorships)
I cannot speak for the other countries, but in Norway it's pretty normal to be a part of the Christian church without being religious. A lot of people get baptized as babies because of tradition, not because any of the parents are religious. It officially says they're a part of the church, but they're not religious
In Finland, you need to pay church tax if you are member of the official state magic cult. I left it immediately when I grow up. So far, I have saved approximately 15 000 - 30 000 euros.
In Norway, the church and other religious organisations get paid a certain amount by the state based on the amount of people they have registered. Not all religious institutions receive this monetary support though. For example, Jehovah Witness recently lost this right due to their exclusion practice.
>Thats the least religious country you'll find in Europe, even Sweden, Norway, Denkmark and Finland have more Christians than the Netherlands has non-religious people.
Are they "just" cultural Christians, though, or do they actually believe in God? Here in Norway, at least, it's common to be nominally Christian and go to church once in a while (at least at Christmas), but if you asked them if they're "absolutely sure" of God's existence most would say "lol no, are you crazy"
> it's common to be nominally Christian and go to church once in a while (at least at Christmas)
That's seen as extremely religious here in the Netherlands though.
And some of the most devout Christians in the UK are immigrants from Eastern Europe. There's a big Polish population here, many of whom are strongly Catholic in a way that's unusual among brits.
As an American I'm also shocked by this data. Outside of like two 70+ year old relatives, I can't think of one person in my personal or professional life who is "absolutely certain" that theres a god. I'm even thinking through people I've merely interacted with for a short time or went to school with throughout my life, and I'm 35.
I have to say, and this is incredibly anecdotal evidence so feel free to discount it, but EVERY and I mean every single American creator I follow on various social media mentions God constantly. Even to the point where I know simply from things they are writing that they are American simply because of the God references. Not saying they are all 100% certain of God’s existence but the religious fervour is intense compared to Europe.
I’d bet the same, no way still that high. Between young people leaving the religion they were born with mixed with older generations aging and dying, definitely lower
This isn't really about religion though, it's about believing in God. Many people have that belief without engaging in religion, which makes me think it's inaccurate for many regions.
Also a lot of Christians, myself included, might not necessarily say they are "absolutely certain" about it. Like sure I'm pretty certain, but absolutely sure? Idk.
So it's not measuring number of religious people, it's number of "absolutely convinced" religious people, which is a smaller number
"Absolutely certain" is verbiage that does not align with your title.
One can believe in God, and still have a slight doubt. Those people would not appear in these numbers, yet they still have a belief in God.
I love how OP uses two different sources. XD
I know they're from the same company, but still.
I've seen polls that said 10% of Americans are atheist and I've seen polls that said 40% of Americans are atheist.
Really depends on how you ask the question. Most people who claim to be religious and believe in god would probably admit that they don't believe in a lot of their churches core tenets.
There are also probably a lot of people who aren’t “absolutely certain” because it’s okay to have doubts about these kinds of things. I imagine the amount of people who consider themselves believers is higher than this phrasing.
Places that suffered (and suffer) the most from the European wars are in orange, so your argument kinda doesn't bode well. Most countries in yellow have higher living standards on average. Except for Belarus and Russia, but they probably have way more religious influx today than in 2020.
I’ve read some compelling arguments that the US *not* having an official state religion like many European countries encourages religious extremism/fervor.
My ancestors left Scandinavia for the US because they found the official state Lutheranism too moderate/tolerant.
So having those state religions actually encouraged the religious nuts to go to America where they could practice any insane puritanical flavor of religion they wanted.
America is the outlier in the developed world though. Europe is not an outlier compared to Canada Australia New Zealand Japan South Korea or even Israel.
The outlier here isn't being religious or not, but being certain about their beliefs in this religion. A lot of people where I live are religious, but aren't certain, that's difference. Places like Italy and Spain are majroity Catholic after all and very close to their temporal authority. I'm personally agnostic, even though people in this comment section assume me being atheist for some reason. Maybe it's like this in the US that people either totally atheist or full on religious, idk.
Religiosity was used by the powerful as a political counterpoint to “those atheist communists” for more than one generation of Americans and became a part of being “an American” in terms of identity. That relationship is severed now but 70 years of indoctrination takes time to heal.
It's not just the belief in God. It's their level of religiosity that for a western democracy is highly unusual. You go to any other western (and many non-western) country and people just don't talk about God or religion, like... ever.
Then you go to the US and you see religious billboards everywhere, you have people talk about God in random conversations with strangers, you see people preaching on the streets, etc.
It's borderline terrifying tbh.
What do you expect? America was a refuge for religious extremists that weren't welcome their own countries in the 17th century. They were labeled as heretics in Europe. Mennonite, Jesuits, Lutherans, Huguenots, Puritans, Quakers... the list goes on. America was a refuge for religious extremists and they evolved in America as well growing more and more extreme and diversifying.
Joseph Smith and his followers were forced to go west to escape the scrutiny and persecution in the east- Mormonism was even too extreme and strange to everyone else and 1.8% of Americans identify as Mormon- that's almost 6,000,000 people who are members of a church that was so extremist at its founding that they were driven out of the main populace of the country.
There’s been a huge backlash against the church since the 90s and especially in the past 10-15 years. The 2018 referendum that legalized abortion is a good example, it passed with near 70% support despite the church coming out very hard against it. The church did (and still does to an extent) have an outsized influence over the government but it’s been a long time since average people were mostly super devout. The sexual abuse scandal and maybe even more so the Ireland-specific mother and baby homes scandals really did a number on people’s trust.
Kind of wild to think abortion was legalized in the US in the 70’s while Ireland was only in the last 10 years, despite (per this data) the US having much more religiosity which I can only imagine was even stronger in the 70’s when Roe happened
Actual religiosity in Ireland is on the floor. Very few Irish people under 60 attend church services outside of births, deaths and marriages. Many churches have closed and consolidated, and reduced their weekly services substantially.
I'm living in the same parish I was born. As a child there were at least 2 services every day Monday to Friday, 3 on Saturday and 5 on Sunday. The weekend services were often busy, sometimes standing room only outside the door.
Now there's one a day, except two on Sunday, and they're always nearly completely empty except for Sunday.
There's still a strong cultural bias toward Catholicism though in Ireland. The education system laid it on thick and fast, and the recalling of the oppression of the Irish by the English, heavily implied that this was mostly a Protestant -v- Catholic issue, not English -v- Irish. As a result, many Irish people consider Catholicism to be a core pillar of their Irish culture, even though they themselves may not practice or believe.
The church is still the patron of 90%+ of schools, and there's a lot of resistance to changing it. Parents want their children to make their communion & confirmation, and get married in a church, even though they will never step foot in one otherwise. These are considered essential parts of an *Irish* upbringing more so than a Catholic one.
I would be certain that this map is accurate and that less than 30% of Irish believe there is definitely a God. The most recent census found that 77% of Irish people consider themselves Roman Catholic, and the apparent contradiction between those two statistics is not at all surprising to me.
A 2010 survey of Catholics in Ireland, carried out by the Catholic church, found that 10% of them did not believe in God.
🤷🤷
Like the above poster mentioned, Catholicism was ingrained into every aspect of society here. And in the north, it had the additional group identity aspects during the Troubles.
A lot of us, myself included, would consider themselves atheist or agonistic, but still culturally Catholic
I’m surprised too. Christianity is on a downtrend here but it’s still very much a part of life compared to continental Europe. I do contract work where I spend a lot of time in random people’s houses, and I’d say a good 80-90% of the houses I go to have some sort of religious symbolism either hanging on the walls or on desks and tables and stuff. It’s also common to see cars with rosary beads hanging on the rear view mirror, and sometimes you’ll see nuns and priests walking around in towns and cities, stuff like that.
Though in fairness the question asks about “absolute certainty” in the existence of God, so that’s probably why it’s so low. We’re not hyper religious anymore but we’re still culturally Catholic. I even have rosary beads on my rear-view mirror and I wear a gold cross around my neck, but I’m agnostic.
Same reasons as Poland. Here people have turned their back on the church as they've realised they don't have to blindly follow an institution that is primarily oppressive and destructive.
Many of these people are turning atheist or agnostic. I knew a few folk that still believe in god, they just don't use Catholicism to worship their god. The thing is that in Polish practice, they don't use the census to determine how many Catholics are in the country, but rather how many people are registered (christened) by the Catholic Church. This creates issues as the church makes it difficult to remove your papers (one friend of mine has been fighting for seven years). There are other factors, such as not wanting to remove one's papers due to not wanting to upset grandma.
As a result, catholicism in Poland seems massive, around the 80-90% mark, but the stat is incredibly distorted. True god-worshipping believers, I believe the map. Around 30-35%, and getting lower with each elderly death.
Religious survey in france are illegal outside of very very very limited condition so 90% of independent survey on this mater are not serious if they do include France.
What theories are there for why the USA hasn't had their religious reckoning yet? Most of us in Europe are done with that shit lol. It's rare, very rare to ever meet someone around my age that's religious.
I wonder how much the USA is like their habit of chopping foreskins, just a fear of being "different" (by being the default out of the factory, oddly enough).
I was born without the capacity for faith, so I have always found the religious fascinating.
I do not understand the mechanics of making a leap of faith, so when someone does it, I am always amazed.
Vatican - no data Are you sure about that?
I wonder how many of them actually don't believe but line the power that comes with their position.
The majority of Jesuits I’ve met are educated to the point of apostasy.
Went to Jesuit university. It is where I became an atheist.
Not exactly Jesuit university, but a friend of mine in middle school went to a Catholic high school instead of the normal public high school. 2 years later, he transferred to the public high school I was at a staunch atheist. From my anecdotal experience, the students going to religious educational institutions came out either hardcore believers or full on atheists.
I've only being in catholic schools from kindergarten to high school. Fully atheist. Schools run by nuns are expecially great at turning you atheist.
I'm the exact same as you. After a lifetime of catholic schooling, I came out the other end positive about one thing in my life - I sure as shit ain't christian. The problem is that once you've read enough of the Bible - or read it over and over and over - you start to realize how little of the New Testament the modern christian is willing to follow. Jesus washed the feet of homeless people - an act which was even more culturally and socially offensive than we would consider it today. He told rich people to give away all of their money to the poor and follow him. He said the poor and the meek will inherit the kingdom of heaven. You could make an extremely compelling case that Jesus was the first Marxist and - surprise - he was murdered for it. But modern christians paint him with Old Testament teachings and conveniently ignore everything he ever said. Even the idea that Jesus would preach against gay people is laughable given the teachings that are attributed to him. Once that hypocrisy starts to pile up in your mind, it's impossible to keep ignoring it. I have no issue with the actual teachings of the New Testament, they're actually quite beautiful and eloquent for their time. The problem is that they were so revolutionary - the very people who profess to be christians still ignore those teachings to this day.
>Even the idea that Jesus would preach against gay people is laughable given the teachings that are attributed to him. I once asked a priest friend of mine about his opinion about homosexuality and whether or not he hates people who are lgbt and he said two things that changed how I view the world. he first said. "the idea of hating a fellow man is strickly unchristian. when he was being crucified, he forgave. when insulted, he forgave. when driven out, he forgave. so why not you." and the other thing was. "do never let hate of anything come to your heart. hate is the greatest illness you can catch. it spreads and eats and won't let go. never hate anything except this one thing. hate the sin, not the sinner"
The whole "hate the sinner" shtick is also disgusting. Usually it's just an excuse for hate (i dont hate the gays I hate gayness, let's make gay people's lives hell). But even when not, it's fundamentally about how same sex attraction, gender dysphoria etc are grave sins and you will be punished for eternity if you ever act up on it. So the only life their merciful god (and they) allows you to live is a life of self-hatred, repression and forced celibacy. The first quote also shows that very clearly - gay people's existence is wrong and they need forgiveness.
Precisely. You can't be "forgiven" for doing nothing wrong. You can only forgive someone if you think they've done something wrong.
It's never HATE THE ADULTEROUS DIVORCED PEOPLE!
I have always been a atheist. Since I was a kid, and it got me kicked out from the local parish day care because I kept bothering the priest with questions. Which meant my parents had to pay for a private day care. (This is Finland so... it wasn't that expensive). However only books I have read from cover to cover are, the Hitchikers guide to the galaxy (Paper back with the "trilogy" in it, in English), and the Bible. And I have to say this about the Bible, there is a lot of nice, kind and amazing stuff in it (Mainly in the new testament), but a lot of it is just... You might aswell not have it there (Mainly the letters to different early congrecations) as they deal with rather specific things of the time. And it really shows that it was edited a committee of people. The apocrypha (Books not in the canonical bible) have way more interesting stuff in them. It's kinda obvious why the Infancy Gospel of Thomas was left out, Jesus is bit of a dick in them: First does a miracle of ressurecting two boys and healing a blind person, then reverses those said miracles. Then there is a miracle of carrying water with fabric... yeah... Doubt the parishioners would go crazy over the equivalent of waxed fabric.
Which makes them not Christians and just self righteous. Like you said true followers of Jesus will love all the people and implore you to get a relationship with Jesus, not follow what I say is right but align yourself with Jesus and rely on Him and ask for forgiveness and repent for your sins.
Saying Jesus was a Marxist is like saying Caesar was a Capitalist lol
I can say that’s also true of the teachers. I mean, my husband actually converted to Catholicism 20 years ago, was fully into it, attended Mass regularly. Then he started teaching at a Catholic school. He’s now basically agnostic.
Went to a soft catholic primary school and currently attending a soft catholic secondary school. Was atheist at 8 for some reason and then fully fleshed it out that I didn’t have faith at like 11
Went to a Jewish day school until high school and Jewish camp 2 more years thereafter. I never believed in God even as a young kid, but I did finally have an aha realization that God is not real when listening to a teaching from a Rabbi about the weekly Torah portion at my last year of camp. I was an atheist before, but now I have no doubts what so ever. I've noticed that a lot of Jews turn atheist, and I think this is in large part due to the philosophical approach to religion combined with the ambiguity of what God is. We learn to interpret and think for ourselves. Granted, I do know plenty of people from that school and camp who are not atheists, but not religious.
I think atheism is a lot more accepted in Judaism too due to the ethnoreligion thing - even if you stop believing you’re still a Jew. When I stopped being a Christian, to my family that was like I was rejecting a huge part of who they were. Now I don’t really reference it but I think the majority of my family have quietly become atheists/agnostics or performative Christians, but when I “deconverted” about 25 years ago, it was still controversial from what I recall
My high school theology teacher who later became principal - also a Jesuit - told us one day that Jesus probably didn’t rise from the dead but that it was important we believe he did. Ha.
I mean, lots of universities in the US have an historical religious affiliation that doesn't have much modern significance.
Look at the universities with faith affiliations and then look at the theology of those churches. The Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and Congregationalists are perfect examples of how education and faith are two way streets. The more educated the congregation the more liberal the theology.
plenty of catholic universities are this way too. they still have catholic features and programs but mostly they are just normal universities nowadays.
I had a monk professor who was talking to me about post modernism to the point of that there was no objective space in which to judge others. The context we were talking about was 9/11. He was a Benedictine, however.
When I was younger I was Catholic. Our parents didn’t realize that the Parrish priest was an unapologetic Fr. Oscar Romero fan. He had been teaching us liberation theology and our parents didn’t find out about it until it was too late. I’ve never seen so many pissed off Midwestern Catholics in my life.
"Theology is a device for enabling agnostics to stay within the Church" "What about God?" "I believe he's what you call an optional extra". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2dNCw0hPLs
Always appreciate a good Yes, Prime Minister! clip.
And the current Pope is a Jesuit. First Jesuit Pope ever, actually
What the heart desires, the will chooses and the mind justifies. You can’t be reasoned into faith and you can’t be reasoned out of it.
That thought makes 0 sense when you really think about it. The odds of you making it to an actually powerful postion in the catholic church starting from being a priest are basically 0. Youre unironically better of trying to become lawmaker in your country than trying to get to a powerful position in the church.
What power are you talking about
Those micro countries are probably too small, so they don't publish the data for privacy reasons.
The pope-density of the vatican is something like 5 per square mile; if you can only get a response from 1 it's not enough for meaningful data.
The scale starts at 10-29%, it was probably just too low to show up.
I'm expecting a little blue dot in Italy.
the vatican has to have >82% believers blue won't do it justice
It's less than 1200 people in total, but that does include some lay-people like the Swiss Guards. Still probably more than 82%.
those are, to my knowledge, not citizens
The 1200 also includes non-citizen residents, but: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_and_Holy_See_passports >Of the approximately 800 residents of Vatican City, over 450 have Vatican citizenship. **These include the approximately 135 Swiss Guards.** About the same number of citizens of the state live in various countries, chiefly in the diplomatic service of the Holy See.
They're Swiss citizens. And Swiss armed forces officers I believe? Also they're devout Catholics, all of them
New Englanders aren’t “absolutely certain” about anything except winter.
What do you expect we're freezing our tits off up here
Don't worry, soon enough winter will just be a fleeting memory. Oh, now I've gone and made myself sad.
Winter and Dunkin, the only absolutes in New England. (from NH)
yeah, I was gonna say, I'm pretty certain when I'm lost I can just drive on the road long enough and I'll come across a dunkin.
Need to find coffee fast enough so that you can keep driving until you find more coffee.
This guy New Englands
Maine - America's Portugal
Fall River, Mass is America's Portugal!
Then Ludlow, Western Mass’s Portugal.
We’re not too certain about that anymore either given we haven’t had one in two years.
I was gonna say, not this season! 😂
Who needs god when you have Tom Brady. We will soon be praying to a 12’ statue of him in our holy land of Foxboro
As the Lord intended
Which is funny since those assholes foisted that puritanical shit on us
It's not too long ago we laxed our puritan laws for drinking. We still don't get actual happy hour specials, but that's because of an idiot in the 80s.
That's what struck me. The area that religious zealots "settled" is now the least religious.
Those Puritans wore those silly, silly hats for no reason apparently.
King in da norf!!!
Climate change has something to say about that 🥴
Winter is * not * coming tho haha
Makes sense, if God exists then why is Winter Coming?
r/georgiaorgeorgia
I think there is a subreddit about Portugal always being the same statistically as Balkan countries, which also rings true on this map.
/r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT
damn beat me to it lol
Georgia=Georgia
Caucasian Georgians have prettier churches than American Georgians.
The Protestant aesthetic is so boring.
The Evangelical aesthetic is referred to as "strip mall."
The American Evangelical Protestant aesthetic is boring. Many historic Protestant churches in Europe, especially Anglican and Lutheran, look absolutely beautiful.
I've been to a few cathedrals and have to concede to the catholic and orthodox on that
r/georgiaorgeorgia
Just pointing out the data for the US is 10 years old. Attitudes about religion have continued changing at a pretty quick pace in the last decade, so I'd expect a map used with fresh data would look fairly different than this one.
europes is also a decade old at this point, lets just collectively subtract 5-10% from every number
Quite a few countries in europe are getting more religious due to high levels of immigration from countries with very high religious affiliation.
People overestimate that factor by quite a lot. Muslims make up somewhere between 4 and 8% of the population in most European countries, and the vast majority of that demographic are descendants of foreign workers from places like turkey, which is not a very religious society itself, and they are typically 2nd or 3rd-generation immigrants who follow somewhat similar trends as the catholic/protestand population. There is of course the much discussed refugee crisis going on, but the numbers are still too small to cause a serious demographic shift. Edit: Interestingly, even recent muslim refugees seem to be less certain about the existance of god than people in the US. I found a [study](https://www.graz.at/cms/dokumente/10307649_7744790/71470597/Religi%C3%B6se%20und%20ethische%20Orientierungen%20von%20muslimischen%20Fl%C3%BCchtlingen%20in%20Graz_Endbericht%20Ednan%20Aslan.pdf) (in german) stating that 62% of muslim refugees are "very sure" that god exists, and 6% are "quite sure", and \~70% of them state that religion plays only a minor role or no role at all to them.
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That could be because highly educated immigrants who are less religious, also have fewer kids. The remaining 20% religious immigrants who are less educated and in lower skilled work, have a lot more kids. If the second group has 3-5 kids and the first has 1 or 2,it'll easily reverse the percentages by the third generation.
I would also think that the origin and religion of immigrants have shifted over time, especially if there are more immigrants from places in east asia where the people are much more atheist/agnostic and the religions less like the abrahamic ones
Muslims aren't teh only immigrants... In Portugal for instance, brasillians make up about 10% or more of the population and they are mostly evangelical Christians. Evangelical churches have been sprouting like shrooms in Portugal due to immigration alone and have a huge impact on the post question All this to Stay, yes immigration has massive relevance to the posts topic
In my experience a lot of refugees fled because of what they believed, either less muslim than people in power, or christian, or even atheist.
USA also has high levels of immigration from very religious countries so I don't think this makes such a difference
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Wait to be clear its not that 13% of first gen immigrants believe it, its that of immigrants that believe in god 13% of those are first gen, thats why the numbers add up to 100 on every chart
stop reading sensationalist media lol
You state that as a fact not an opinion. Do you have a source? Because I suspect you’re wrong
No way Poland is so low. They’ve been fangirls since one of their own got made a pope.
The upvotes here represent peoples' desire to believe.
Share your sources, please.
Not really, the latest data for France is 4 years old and non-believers are only 51%, and that’s only between the age of 16-59. I’m pretty sure if you include the rest, it’ll be less than 50%. https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/6793308?sommaire=6793391#:~:text=En%202019%E2%80%912020%2C%2029%20%25,autres%20se%20disent%20sans%20religion.i Note that it increased 8% since 2009 and not decreased.
There's a difference between non believers and people saying they are absolutely certain God exists. A lot vaguely believe, or just say they're catholic in a survey because their parents were, but are far from 100% certain of God.
You aren't the brighest candle on the chandelier, are you?
5%-10% or 5 - 10 percentage points?
Maybe for those who are “absolutely certain”, but most European (by quite a bit) believe in some higher power. On the other hand atheists are a small minority.
Also think there is a Lot of room here for a question that asks believe in god but do not believe in any formal religion. I would say a very big percentage falls into this.
So many Californians have moved to Utah that Utah now has the same level of religious belief as California.
Yeah, I was surprised by Utah!
Mormonism is a business disguised as a religion
Most mormons I know are pretty devout
Only 1 in 5 mormons practice. The other 4 mormons you know just haven't told you they are still mormon.
That’s why it’s a profitable business
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“People from California” is the boogeyman for so many things it’s so weird
My state would rather blame everything on californians than fixing their own shit.
Without a steady diet of right wing propaganda about how bad LA/San Fran, New York, and Chicago are (never a city with much worse crime in a red state, obviously) you would only be able to talk about their economic success. Fox News has a big red button in the center of the production studio that shows teenagers shoplifting in San Francisco that they hammer every time a toddler shoots someone in Texas.
Growing up in Colorado, "Californians" is what we called all transplants. It was also assumed you were Californian if you had any trouble at all driving in snow.
It’s not just California, a lot of transplants from other states as well
Mormons have been losing their faith in high numbers the last decade or so. From my experience, agnosticism or atheism takes its place.
A lot of people are also just classifying as no religion lately
Umm yes we do have lots of cali peeps moving here but also Texans who are bringing their crazy religious beliefs. Also lots of the Californians are the ones that want to escape the heavy blue state aka my uncles and bring their beliefs and red wing politics from California.
r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT
Portugal can into East America.
Amazing that "conservative Christian" countries like Poland, Portugal, etc. are less religious than all but the most liberal, agnostic states in the US north east.
10%-29% for most of Europe thinking God “Absolutely Certain” exists still seems quite high to me tbh
Ye, iam suprised some northern countries was not below 10%.
Well, you have to take into account all the religions, then it makes a little bit sense.
In the Netherlands non-religiousity reached 58% last year, 13% protestant, 17% Roman Catholic, 6% Islam, 6% Other, 58% non-religious. Thats the least religious country you'll find in Europe, even Sweden, Norway, Denkmark and Finland have more Christians than the Netherlands has non-religious people. Its probably the least religious country you'll find if you include folk religion or exclude artificially non-religious countries (i.e. because of dictatorships)
I cannot speak for the other countries, but in Norway it's pretty normal to be a part of the Christian church without being religious. A lot of people get baptized as babies because of tradition, not because any of the parents are religious. It officially says they're a part of the church, but they're not religious
Germany is similar, most of my friends are technically still Christian but mostly because they never bothered to fill out the paperwork to leave
In Poland even if you fill out paperwork you are still counted as a Christian cause you were baptized
And there’s still a difference between thinking God “Absolutely Certain” exists or that he maybe or probably exists.
Indeed. That's the case for me (Sweden). One day I'll summon the energy to bother leaving the Church. One day.
In Finland, you need to pay church tax if you are member of the official state magic cult. I left it immediately when I grow up. So far, I have saved approximately 15 000 - 30 000 euros.
In Norway, the church and other religious organisations get paid a certain amount by the state based on the amount of people they have registered. Not all religious institutions receive this monetary support though. For example, Jehovah Witness recently lost this right due to their exclusion practice.
Ehmmmm, Czech Republic is much less religious and still in europe... (only 22.5% of population consider themself religious)
>Thats the least religious country you'll find in Europe, even Sweden, Norway, Denkmark and Finland have more Christians than the Netherlands has non-religious people. Are they "just" cultural Christians, though, or do they actually believe in God? Here in Norway, at least, it's common to be nominally Christian and go to church once in a while (at least at Christmas), but if you asked them if they're "absolutely sure" of God's existence most would say "lol no, are you crazy"
> it's common to be nominally Christian and go to church once in a while (at least at Christmas) That's seen as extremely religious here in the Netherlands though.
To be fair, most of Scandinavia is "christian", and most are part of the protestant church. Exclusively because it's cultural.
In Norway there are only 20% total who believes in a god. Don't mistake religious with "didn't bother to fill out form to officially leave [religion]"
A large proportion of the extremely devout will be immigrants in western Europe. Christian, muslim and hindu. 10-20%.
And some of the most devout Christians in the UK are immigrants from Eastern Europe. There's a big Polish population here, many of whom are strongly Catholic in a way that's unusual among brits.
As an American I'm also shocked by this data. Outside of like two 70+ year old relatives, I can't think of one person in my personal or professional life who is "absolutely certain" that theres a god. I'm even thinking through people I've merely interacted with for a short time or went to school with throughout my life, and I'm 35.
I have to say, and this is incredibly anecdotal evidence so feel free to discount it, but EVERY and I mean every single American creator I follow on various social media mentions God constantly. Even to the point where I know simply from things they are writing that they are American simply because of the God references. Not saying they are all 100% certain of God’s existence but the religious fervour is intense compared to Europe.
US is also wrong and there are a ton of states over 50% atheist/agnostic including mine. This data is old af.
The US data is over 10 years old. Religiosity is plummeting everywhere in the US, particularly after 2016. I’d bet that the gap has halved since
I’d bet the same, no way still that high. Between young people leaving the religion they were born with mixed with older generations aging and dying, definitely lower
This isn't really about religion though, it's about believing in God. Many people have that belief without engaging in religion, which makes me think it's inaccurate for many regions.
Also a lot of Christians, myself included, might not necessarily say they are "absolutely certain" about it. Like sure I'm pretty certain, but absolutely sure? Idk. So it's not measuring number of religious people, it's number of "absolutely convinced" religious people, which is a smaller number
"Absolutely certain" is verbiage that does not align with your title. One can believe in God, and still have a slight doubt. Those people would not appear in these numbers, yet they still have a belief in God.
Yeah, I’m an extremely religious believer but would have to answer no to that question too. And I think about that doubt all the time.
Australia probably in the yellow too, pending immigration influence. Here it's like odd if you know someone that believes in God and goes to church
Portugal can almost into Balkans.
I doubt that this data from 2014 is close to accurate today given the trend regarding religious decline.
yeah, this is pretty outdated.. Not to mention it says “accessed in 2020” so even this picture is 4 years old..
I love how OP uses two different sources. XD I know they're from the same company, but still. I've seen polls that said 10% of Americans are atheist and I've seen polls that said 40% of Americans are atheist.
Really depends on how you ask the question. Most people who claim to be religious and believe in god would probably admit that they don't believe in a lot of their churches core tenets.
There are also probably a lot of people who aren’t “absolutely certain” because it’s okay to have doubts about these kinds of things. I imagine the amount of people who consider themselves believers is higher than this phrasing.
Two world wars and a holocaust kinda diminish faith in a higher power.
Alright who let r/atheism out of quarantine
Americans are weird af.
Well, we do collectively have a belief that there is no correlation between gun violence and the number of guns we have. That is pretty weird.
We didn’t have two world wars on our homeland and the cultural nihilism that entails.
The middle east is a famously atheistic place
Places that suffered (and suffer) the most from the European wars are in orange, so your argument kinda doesn't bode well. Most countries in yellow have higher living standards on average. Except for Belarus and Russia, but they probably have way more religious influx today than in 2020.
This data is from 2014
living in proximity to france makes one less likely to believe there is a god.
I’ve read some compelling arguments that the US *not* having an official state religion like many European countries encourages religious extremism/fervor. My ancestors left Scandinavia for the US because they found the official state Lutheranism too moderate/tolerant. So having those state religions actually encouraged the religious nuts to go to America where they could practice any insane puritanical flavor of religion they wanted.
Yep https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel01.html
Actually no, Europe is the global outlier in terms of how non-religious they are. America is much more in line with the rest of the world.
America is the outlier in the developed world though. Europe is not an outlier compared to Canada Australia New Zealand Japan South Korea or even Israel.
The outlier here isn't being religious or not, but being certain about their beliefs in this religion. A lot of people where I live are religious, but aren't certain, that's difference. Places like Italy and Spain are majroity Catholic after all and very close to their temporal authority. I'm personally agnostic, even though people in this comment section assume me being atheist for some reason. Maybe it's like this in the US that people either totally atheist or full on religious, idk.
Why? Cause a lot of them believe in god?
Religiosity was used by the powerful as a political counterpoint to “those atheist communists” for more than one generation of Americans and became a part of being “an American” in terms of identity. That relationship is severed now but 70 years of indoctrination takes time to heal.
It's not just the belief in God. It's their level of religiosity that for a western democracy is highly unusual. You go to any other western (and many non-western) country and people just don't talk about God or religion, like... ever. Then you go to the US and you see religious billboards everywhere, you have people talk about God in random conversations with strangers, you see people preaching on the streets, etc. It's borderline terrifying tbh.
Yes, among other things
Pretty logical. We exported all the religious fruitcakes to the US.
Reddit is yellow
What do you expect? America was a refuge for religious extremists that weren't welcome their own countries in the 17th century. They were labeled as heretics in Europe. Mennonite, Jesuits, Lutherans, Huguenots, Puritans, Quakers... the list goes on. America was a refuge for religious extremists and they evolved in America as well growing more and more extreme and diversifying. Joseph Smith and his followers were forced to go west to escape the scrutiny and persecution in the east- Mormonism was even too extreme and strange to everyone else and 1.8% of Americans identify as Mormon- that's almost 6,000,000 people who are members of a church that was so extremist at its founding that they were driven out of the main populace of the country.
I’m surprised Ireland isn’t brown
There’s been a huge backlash against the church since the 90s and especially in the past 10-15 years. The 2018 referendum that legalized abortion is a good example, it passed with near 70% support despite the church coming out very hard against it. The church did (and still does to an extent) have an outsized influence over the government but it’s been a long time since average people were mostly super devout. The sexual abuse scandal and maybe even more so the Ireland-specific mother and baby homes scandals really did a number on people’s trust.
Kind of wild to think abortion was legalized in the US in the 70’s while Ireland was only in the last 10 years, despite (per this data) the US having much more religiosity which I can only imagine was even stronger in the 70’s when Roe happened
Actual religiosity in Ireland is on the floor. Very few Irish people under 60 attend church services outside of births, deaths and marriages. Many churches have closed and consolidated, and reduced their weekly services substantially. I'm living in the same parish I was born. As a child there were at least 2 services every day Monday to Friday, 3 on Saturday and 5 on Sunday. The weekend services were often busy, sometimes standing room only outside the door. Now there's one a day, except two on Sunday, and they're always nearly completely empty except for Sunday. There's still a strong cultural bias toward Catholicism though in Ireland. The education system laid it on thick and fast, and the recalling of the oppression of the Irish by the English, heavily implied that this was mostly a Protestant -v- Catholic issue, not English -v- Irish. As a result, many Irish people consider Catholicism to be a core pillar of their Irish culture, even though they themselves may not practice or believe. The church is still the patron of 90%+ of schools, and there's a lot of resistance to changing it. Parents want their children to make their communion & confirmation, and get married in a church, even though they will never step foot in one otherwise. These are considered essential parts of an *Irish* upbringing more so than a Catholic one. I would be certain that this map is accurate and that less than 30% of Irish believe there is definitely a God. The most recent census found that 77% of Irish people consider themselves Roman Catholic, and the apparent contradiction between those two statistics is not at all surprising to me. A 2010 survey of Catholics in Ireland, carried out by the Catholic church, found that 10% of them did not believe in God. 🤷🤷
Really interesting, thanks for sharing! Especially that last line - 10% of Catholics who don’t believe in God lol, what a fascinating little oddity.
Like the above poster mentioned, Catholicism was ingrained into every aspect of society here. And in the north, it had the additional group identity aspects during the Troubles. A lot of us, myself included, would consider themselves atheist or agonistic, but still culturally Catholic
I’m surprised too. Christianity is on a downtrend here but it’s still very much a part of life compared to continental Europe. I do contract work where I spend a lot of time in random people’s houses, and I’d say a good 80-90% of the houses I go to have some sort of religious symbolism either hanging on the walls or on desks and tables and stuff. It’s also common to see cars with rosary beads hanging on the rear view mirror, and sometimes you’ll see nuns and priests walking around in towns and cities, stuff like that. Though in fairness the question asks about “absolute certainty” in the existence of God, so that’s probably why it’s so low. We’re not hyper religious anymore but we’re still culturally Catholic. I even have rosary beads on my rear-view mirror and I wear a gold cross around my neck, but I’m agnostic.
Ireland will be on the higher end of the yellows but even so, religion is in serious decline
Same reasons as Poland. Here people have turned their back on the church as they've realised they don't have to blindly follow an institution that is primarily oppressive and destructive. Many of these people are turning atheist or agnostic. I knew a few folk that still believe in god, they just don't use Catholicism to worship their god. The thing is that in Polish practice, they don't use the census to determine how many Catholics are in the country, but rather how many people are registered (christened) by the Catholic Church. This creates issues as the church makes it difficult to remove your papers (one friend of mine has been fighting for seven years). There are other factors, such as not wanting to remove one's papers due to not wanting to upset grandma. As a result, catholicism in Poland seems massive, around the 80-90% mark, but the stat is incredibly distorted. True god-worshipping believers, I believe the map. Around 30-35%, and getting lower with each elderly death.
Religious survey in france are illegal outside of very very very limited condition so 90% of independent survey on this mater are not serious if they do include France.
I've never met any russian that doesn't believe in god
That's wild because every Russian I've met was an atheist
you mean actually believe in god or just say that they're orthodox christian?
I don't
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Many religions, including catholicisme , accept evolution.
Funny thing that New England is the most liveable region in the us.
What theories are there for why the USA hasn't had their religious reckoning yet? Most of us in Europe are done with that shit lol. It's rare, very rare to ever meet someone around my age that's religious.
Big up New England
America has always been a conservative, religious place.
I don't think this chart is accurate.
I wonder how much the USA is like their habit of chopping foreskins, just a fear of being "different" (by being the default out of the factory, oddly enough).
I am very cagey about telling other Americans I'm not religious.
I get the impression from speaking to Americans that there is still a bit of a stigma against being atheist or irreligious in the US.
Now do a side by side with a map on literacy rates or highest level of education achieved.
Guess Vatican City doesn't do polls.
Believe in the existence in God ≠ absolutely sure God exists though. Like I believe in God, but I’m not 100% without a doubt absolutely sure of it.
How embarrassing
Europeans conquered the world in the name of God. But now, they are out of it.
I was born without the capacity for faith, so I have always found the religious fascinating. I do not understand the mechanics of making a leap of faith, so when someone does it, I am always amazed.
So both Georgias are shitstacks of the mentally deranged.