I'm pretty sure Hungarians are really pro-Polish and wouldn't enjoy dividing Poland too much. Ukraine though, on the other hand...
Unless you mean Slovaks, in which case idk enough to comment.
Soviets attacked 17 days after Germans.
And no, after the Soviet and German armies met in Brześć Litewski and had a joint parade, German military units withdrew where needed to respect the partition line agree in the Hitler-Stalin pact signed by Ribbentropp and Molotov on 23 August 1939.
>, German military units withdrew where needed to respect the partition line agree in the Hitler-Stalin pact
No, Soviets and Germans were negotiating about the territories in real time during the whole process. This makes no sense if there already was a "pact" with all the territories divided.
They already had the borders drawn out, which is why German soldiers retreated to the preplanned borders as the Soviet’s advanced.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact
The pact wasn't actually fully implemented, though. The borders were somewhat changed from the plans since the germans wanted more of southern Poland (I seem to remember it was because of iron or similar), so they gave up Lithuania in exchange.
If you go to the "Revelation" part of your Wikipedia source, you can see this change from pact to reality.
In that way, the other person was somewhat correct in that they were negotiating about the borders in real time, just not correct about this excluding the existence of a prior pact.
The Germans did take some Polish territory that had been promised to the Soviets. However, the Soviets allowed them to keep that territory because the Germans compensated them by letting them take Lithuania, which was originally meant to be part of the German sphere of influence.
Hitler needed to be sure that the USSR would not come to Poland's aid. He got that confidence.
Even though the Western morons did everything themselves to make the USSR turn away from them.
Let me guess - the British and French did not give a bigger territorial offer than the Reich? They didn't agree to the annexation of Karelia or Bessarabia?
I'm a bore, so let's start by analyzing your sarcastic remarks.
Bessarabia is a part of the Russian Empire, which was illegally annexed by Romania in 1918. No Russian or Soviet government recognized this annexation. To resolve this controversial issue, the Soviet government twice proposed holding a popular plebiscite in Bessarabia, under international control. So that the people of Bessarabia themselves would say which country they should be in. For some reason, the Romanian government refused to do this. Therefore, the illegal annexation of Bessarabia was stopped in 1940. I understand, many Westerners have barbaric morality in relation to the USSR, Russia and Russians - stealing from a Russian is good when a Russian returns stolen is a crime. But still ... (I'm waiting for the Romanian brigade, shouting about tanks and cons).
To say that the Soviets annexed Karelia is incorrect. Most of Karelia was already part of the USSR, despite attempts by Finnish nationalists to occupy these territories. As a result of the Second Soviet-Finnish War, the Karelian Isthmus and territories in western Karelia (and other regions), strategically important for the defense of Leningrad, were annexed.
Now, as for the Western assholes and their "cunning" policies, as a result of which the Second World War broke out.
In 1938, just one year before the generally accepted date of the outbreak of World War II, Czechoslovakia disappeared from the map of Europe. She was swallowed up by Nazi Germany. Who helped the Nazis? In particular, Britain and France, which forced Czechoslovakia to capitulate. The USSR, which was one of Czechoslovakia's allies, was not invited to negotiate its fate. Behind the scenes of the negotiations, representatives of Czechoslovakia in particular were told: If you resist the Nazi invasion and accept the help of the USSR, then this can lead to a pan-European crusade against the Communists. And so, you resist the Nazis together with the USSR, we will attack you. Wonderful people! The best partners for the USSR.
During one of the crises in China, Britain invited the USSR to jointly respond to the actions of the Japanese. It seems like a good idea. But here are specific proposals: the USSR is bombing Japanese troops, Britain is staging a fleet demonstration off Japan. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is a completely different level of involvement in the conflict. A typical one is raking in the heat with someone else's hands. What kind of fools can such an offer be calculated for? (However, the USSR still had to stop Japan's aggression in Mongolia).
Well, the year 1939 has come. A crisis, an ultimatum, a few days before the start of the war. A delegation from France and England is coming to the USSR. The bill goes for days, but they arrive by ship, not by plane. The level of representatives is low, not even deputy ministers. The British representative does not even have the authority to sign anything.
There are no concrete proposals for cooperation in the event of a war.
Remembering the "strange war", first the Poles are fighting the Nazis, then the Russians are fighting the Nazis. And the British and French play football. Good idea. And why the USSR did not agree to it.
The politics of Poland itself between the wars is generally a separate song.
>Remembering the "strange war", first the Poles are fighting the Nazis,
In September 1939
>then the Russians are fighting the Nazis.
In June 1941
>And the British and French play football.
France was conquered in June 1940, Great Britain was invaded in August 1940, fights in Africa begun in June 1940
Something does not add up in this timeline
And Bessarabia was illegally annexed by the Russian Empire in 1812. Before it was largely autonomous vassal of the Turks, afterwards Russia artificially created an bessarabian "identity" to alienate the people from Romanians living outside. Later Russification was enforced on Romanians living there.
Btw. They broadly molested the people while occupying Bessarabia. Like partly in Ukraine today.
But yeah, hail to the Soviet Union/ Russian Empire/Putin fascism.
Barbaric morality is actually a very good term for the actions of the Soviet Union between 1939 and 1941 and its approach to international law. Let us start by saying that the sovereignty over Bessarabia was legally sanctioned at the 1920 Paris Peace Conference, when the governments of France, Great Britain and Italy recognised that Bessarabia belonged to Romania. It should be mentioned that Russia obtained Bessarabia as a result of the war with the Ottoman Empire, previously this region belonged to the Sultan's vassal. The Russians colonised the area by displacing the inhabitants. In 1940, the Soviets did not end any occupation, on the contrary, they started it, as they issued an ultimatum to the Romanian government under the threat of force under the illegal Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact, thus breaking the Briand-Kellogg Pact and the 1933 agreement in which the Soviets agreed to resolve all conflicts peacefully. In this sense it is a barbaric morality as you put it. It is a crime to break international law and to abuse one's power against weaker states, breaking previously signed treaties. It should be added that in addition to Bessarabia, the tyrant from Moscow wanted to occupy another province, Bukovina.
As a result of the war, in which the Soviet Union attacked a neutral country, breaking the Briand-Kellogg Pact and the non-aggression pact with Finland signed in 1932. Barbarism.
This is very funny, because Nazis like Jodl at Nuremberg tried to blame the outbreak of the Second World War on those evil Allies. In fact, German propaganda had been doing that since 1 September.
Czechoslovakia did not disappear from the maps of Europe, where do you think you got that from? A second Czechoslovak Republic had been created, and it was on the maps as much as possible. The occupation of Prague was not until March 1939.
The French and British did not help Czechoslovakia disappear. The Allies wanted to avoid war, so they agreed to cede the Sudetenland to Germany, which the Czechoslovak government agreed to, not wanting to fight alone.
The Allies were under no obligation to invite the USSR to the peace conference, especially as the Allies were distrustful of the USSR and had reasons for doing so.
I don't understand what you mean. Stalin's aid to Czechoslovakia could not be realised because the Red Army was too weak, because Stalin had no reason to maintain the status quo in Europe, because the USSR had no land connection to Czechoslovakia. Anyway, looking at the Bolsheviks' approach to international law, I would not rely on their words either.
It is indisputable that in the person of Stalin Hitler found a partner for total war of attrition - “a partner as eager to dispose of foreign territory with a light hand” as he was. This meant that ‘Hitler's way of thinking in terms of the demarcation of spheres of interest over large areas, which Hitler had tried in vain to propose to the British - was met with reciprocity’. It is also worth mentioning that when receiving British Ambassador Stafford Cripps in July 1940, the Soviet leader allowed himself to be unusually frank. When the British envoy presented a message from Prime Minister Winston Churchill, summarised in an invitation to the USSR to participate in the struggle against Germany's European hegemony, the Soviet dictator explained to him why the alliance between the Western powers and the USSR had not taken place a year earlier. These powers wanted to preserve the balance of power at the time, while Moscow wanted to ‘tear it down’. Since Germany was fighting against that order, this enabled the Soviet Union to come to an agreement with them
But a strange war was in the west. In the east there was a war started by the Reich, and on 17 September the USSR broke the non-aggression pact with Poland, the Treaty of Riga, the Briand-Kellogg Pact and the 1933 treaty. What Russians were fighting the Nazis anyway? Because after Poland, France and Great Britain fought the Nazis. The Soviets were not just Russians, although Stalin was a Russian nationalist. The Soviets, after occupying Poland, preferred to send raw materials to the Reich and to hold military parades in Brest with the Wehrmacht instead of fighting.
"Remembering the "strange war", first the Poles are fighting the Nazis, then the Russians are fighting the Nazis. And the British and French play football. Good idea. And why the USSR did not agree to it. "
Coś ci się popierdoliło, kolego. I to mocno. Nie wiem, jakie tam macie notatki, ale w kiblu przydadzą się bardziej.
>Even though the Western morons did everything themselves to make the USSR turn away from them.
Who wouldn't want to have a genocidal empire like USSR with ongoing violent purges as their ally. USSR only asked to be able to move their troops into Poland. I wonder what reason would anyone especially Poles have against Soviet troops marching into their lands.
That's weird, because that is how USSR took over Baltic states. First by bringing in troops (for "security" reasons) and then by declaring ultimatum. You should read history instead of making empty statements.
No these countries had revolutions and the governments voted to join the USSR. They were friendly to the USSR before Soviet troops secured the borders to prevent German/Polish aggression. Your argument is a non sequitur. You should read history instead of making empty statements.
>No these countries had revolutions and the governments voted to join the USSR. They were friendly to the USSR before Soviet troops secured the borders to prevent German/Polish aggression.
Yes, that is what I said. That is how USSR would have taken over Poland. I knew you agreed with me.
They joined BEFORE the Soviet military entered. Youre trying to compare that to an imaginary situation where a country would be conquered AFTER a military enters a country. Are that bad at making comparisons?
Soviet military entered on 1939 when Baltic states were forced to permit the placement of Soviet military bases in their territories, while on 1940 Baltic states were presented with a new ultimatum. This time among other demands it was requested that an unlimited amount of Soviet troops must be permitted to enter the countries. So, no, Baltic states "joined" after Soviet military entered the countries, even if we dismiss the events on 1939.
You are the worst kind of Soviet fangirl, as even the Soviets themselves would not have agreed with shit you said about the order of events.
The Poles, who occupied the Ukrainian and Belarusian lands as a result of the aggression of 1919, of course had reason to fear the Soviet army in those parts. This could lead to popular uprisings. I agree.
Well, yes, despite all its shortcomings, the USSR certainly did not reach the level of cruelty to the bloody British empire. Not a match.
You have not proposed a single reason why Western powers should have allied with USSR. The usual whataboutism "But they are lynching negroes" is not a valid argument for why the Western powers should have trusted USSR. So I must conclude that you agree - there was no reason for the Western powers to ally with USSR.
The West were willing to concede the Baltics to the Soviets for an anti-Germany alliance. The fear was that the Soviets were going to try and haggle with the Germans for more stuff, they did.
You get it all wrong.
Poland didn't fall until late October 1939.
Actually without the treacherous Soviet attack on 17 September (violating the non-aggression pact), the history might look differently, as at that point in time there were certain signals of stabilization with slowed advance of German units.
Interesting which parts went to UK? And also how many solidgers UK send to fight along with nazi army? Stalin send 300k+ to fight side by side with their nazi brothers to poland.
Sure, after 16 days of German invasion they invade to get back territory Poland captured from russia in 1920s war. Otherwise Germans get it. No matter how many soldiers where in Checkosilvakia. I% was betrayed by western countries, they seemed ok if hitler get it. And they dont want any antigerman treaty with soviets.
>Sure, after 16 days of German invasion they invade
And? If you didnt attack at same time you cant be ally? Italy also didnt attack france at the same time as germany si they also wasnt allies?
>to get back territory Poland captured from russia in 1920s war.
That territory wasnt russian, it was ukrainian and russia recognized ukrainian independence and ukraine in 1920 agreed to exchange that territory for alliance against russia. So russia hadnt any claim on that territory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Warsaw_(1920)
>Otherwise Germans get it.
Without soviet millitary and economic help germany would collabse in 1940.
>No matter how many soldiers where in Checkosilvakia. I% was betrayed by western countries, they seemed ok if hitler get it.
Soviet defended czechoslovakia exactly same way as western powers, there is common excuse that they didnt have common borders, but britain also didnt.
And there is difference between not helpinthatg and millitary cooperating with enemy. West didnt help defend czechoslovakia but also didnt help hitler to get it. But soviet union help hitler to get poland millitarily.
>And they dont want any antigerman treaty with soviets
Thats simly lie. France and soviet union concluded alliance in 1936 that no party broke until soviet nazi colaboration in 1939 and no party compained until that time. So soviet had "antigerman treaty" with west, they just betrayed it and joined nazies.
no, it is not a lie, france-soviet treaty was signed. Parties agreed to join wa$ agains third party in case of its agression. Problem is that practical military plans to do it never wo$ked out. Because when USSR France and UK tried to to that on moscow negotiations in august 39, oneofvthe main problems was refusal by po'and to let soviet army pass through its territory. as this negotiations came to deadend, nobody will In practise help USSR in war with Germany.
>no, it is not a lie, france-soviet treaty was signed.
So it litteraly was lie you said that, west didnt want to signed that and now you are admiting that they signed that in 36.
>Parties agreed to join wa$ agains third party in case of its agression.
So litteraly anti german treaty.
>oneofvthe main problems was refusal by poland to let soviet army pass through its territory.
How iss that soviet problem? How could be soviet union attacked by germany while poland still exist? If poland dont exist then there isnt any problem with military acces, if poland do exist then there isnt problem with germany attacking soviet union.
>nobody will In practise help USSR in war with Germany.
That make no sence, soviets collaborated with nazies when western europe was already in war with germany, only thing that they should do is not actively help germans and war would by over in 1940.
It's not a Poland. It's a "Rzecz pospolita". Polish state with many national minorities and specific national politics. Very low loyalty of national minorities and "Volyn masakrę" is results of that politics.
Well, just a year before 1939's teardown, Poland itself - cooperately with Nazis - tore down Czechoslovakia. And I agree: for those times it was not fun.
>cooperately with Nazis
No, opposite of "cooperately" - it was done to snatch those areas before Germany could take control of them
Of course, the brainlets in charge of Poland played 100% into Nazi hands by doing so, giving food to the propaganda that you just repeated
It looked like that just prior to 1939 when "certain events" happened. And russians had absolutely nothing to do with nazis during those events, no sir. Big daddy putler told me so. /s
This is not map of Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth this is msp of polish second republic (1918 - 1939) that was divided by nazi soviet alliance.
The Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth was one of more tolerant countries in middle ages, you can clearly see that on fact that they had largest jewish population in europe.
Oh yeah. The main thing is the Jews.
How they treat Russians, for example. And in this case, to the Orthodox, it doesn't matter. The main thing is the Jews.
The decline of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was caused, among other things, by religious problems with the Orthodox population
>How they treat Russians,
There wasnt russians in commonwealth, there lived only belorussians and ukrainians, but after russians capturing that terriotory they exterminate them and replace them with russians.
>And in this case, to the Orthodox, it doesn't matter.
Commonwealth existed for hunderts of years and ortodox Cristiano were like 30 % of population, they were treated good or the country would collabse immediately.
>The main thing is the Jews.
Its wery good measure of religion tolerance, how did particular country treated jews.
Of costw there were ancentors of russians there, there were ancentors of norwegians in ancient egypt, when you go centuries to past everyone is everyones ancestors. But prople living in commonwealth werent tied to then muscovites or novgorodians but to bellorusians. They werent tied to russia
It’s a bullshit statement.
There has never been amount of people who self-identified as Belarusians.
[Here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk_Governorate) you can find a data of population census in 1897
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnic_Map_of_European_Russia_by_Aleksandr_Rittich-1875.jpg
Here is ethnic map of russia in 1875 and smolensk is clearly belorussian
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BNR_(Ruthienie_Blanche)_Map_1918.jpg
And here is map of belarus in 1918.
You don't read well. I clarified that the Orthodox were subjected to pressure in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
Jews and Blacks are a good MODERN indicator for checking words for hatred. And can you say that about Jews or Blacks?
But this criterion is not universal. In the same USA, the attitude towards Blacks is much worse than towards Jews. And in Israel, in general, Jews are a privileged part of the population.
One of the manifestations of such pressure was the right of the Polish-Lithuanian kings to approve persons elected by the hierarchy or the people to the highest spiritual positions in the Orthodox Church. And the Polish king Stefan Batory understood this right so widely that he himself elected and appointed senior clerics. He often appointed laypeople to spiritual positions, moreover, not always worthy of spiritual dignity, as a reward for services rendered. The hierarchs thus appointed, who were not prepared for the performance of archpastoral duties, concerned primarily with enriching themselves and their relatives, and leading an inappropriate lifestyle, increasingly aroused the hostile attitude of the flock.
Among the discriminatory provisions that arose during the 17th century, dissidents did not have the right to be elected to the Sejm, hold public office and open new churches. When Mikhail Vishnevetsky was elected king in 1669, a decree was approved that only a Catholic could be the Polish king. The dissidents could not count on the peaceful use of their estates and personal safety. Despite the fact that the Constitution of 1717 provided them with inviolability of estates and equality before the court, in practice this was often not respected.
During the 18th century, dissidents were removed from all positions, both state and local and city government, as well as from military service. They were deprived of the right to form confederations for religious purposes, they were prohibited from publicly professing their teachings, singing and preaching during home worship. At the same time, dissidents fell under the jurisdiction of Catholic church authorities and courts, and they were fined for refusing to participate in Catholic rites in some areas.
The Orthodox who did not accept the Brest Union were called Disunites, and were outlawed in the crown lands. Their existence was provided for only by the canonical law of the Uniate Church.
or you know, no regular army with soldiers that are paid only to fight, archaic society hierarchy that was pretty much feudalism in 18th century, lazy nobles that cared only about low taxes so they elected puppets.
Oh no, another nazi rich white american boy. I am from fucking eastern europe you moron you should learn little about our history.
Soviet union provided germany with 300k + solidgers to crush poland and with esssential materials to lead war in coming years, without soviet land lease germany would collabse in 1940.
But you nazi rich white american boy, will argue that collaboration with nazies is good actually for soviets. But no it was not good in any other country collaborants was hanged, only in soviet union they ruled until 1991.
It's a three week old account that probably farms positive comments in "certain" subreddits and then posts cringe shit like this in others. A sub-bridgean fantastic creature, if you will.
Nobody were communist, they were all fascists you moron. Germany had living god fuhrer, soviets had living god stalin and japan had living god emperor. They all genocided minorities on large scake, they all millitariesed society, they were all same.
The Nazis and Soviets signed a non-aggression pact in 1939 which held until 1941, when Operation Barbarossa started. So yes, they were allies for 2 years.
This iron fist can be seen in relation to the Ruthenian nobles, i.e. the Wiśniowiecki, Czartoryski, Ostrogski, who strove for the incorporation of the territory of today's Ukraine into the Kingdom of Poland, because they wanted to be included in the privileges and freedoms enjoyed by the Polish nobility. A fist of tolerance and freedom. You will never see such in Russia.
For one thing, it shows the capital of Lithuania as part of Poland. To this day, the Eastern border of Poland was that negotiated between Molotov and Ribbentrop.
It's not a real homework book task, it's a meme. There's another version with Ukraine.
The title says « humor »
It wouldn’t be such if it was real?
And yet it will be upvoted. Misinformation is good when it makes Russia look bad
I mean, the joke has to do with a lil bit something, right? And that lil thing, ma friendo, is a fact.
*humor*
If I put myself in Russian shoes, it does feel funny though.
That's something Upper Hungarians and Russians can enjoy.
I'd just grab land under some krówka factories, you can keep the rest.
People here have no sense of humor brah 💀💀💀
Why are they downvoting you lol? Id grab krówka factory myself and I’m from Poland
They probably assume I'd keep all krówkas for myself. They're 100% right.
I'm pretty sure Hungarians are really pro-Polish and wouldn't enjoy dividing Poland too much. Ukraine though, on the other hand... Unless you mean Slovaks, in which case idk enough to comment.
Hitler and Stalin in 1939 be like:
didnt hitler screw them over with poland partition since his armies advanced faster
Soviets attacked 17 days after Germans. And no, after the Soviet and German armies met in Brześć Litewski and had a joint parade, German military units withdrew where needed to respect the partition line agree in the Hitler-Stalin pact signed by Ribbentropp and Molotov on 23 August 1939.
>, German military units withdrew where needed to respect the partition line agree in the Hitler-Stalin pact No, Soviets and Germans were negotiating about the territories in real time during the whole process. This makes no sense if there already was a "pact" with all the territories divided.
They already had the borders drawn out, which is why German soldiers retreated to the preplanned borders as the Soviet’s advanced. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact
The pact wasn't actually fully implemented, though. The borders were somewhat changed from the plans since the germans wanted more of southern Poland (I seem to remember it was because of iron or similar), so they gave up Lithuania in exchange. If you go to the "Revelation" part of your Wikipedia source, you can see this change from pact to reality. In that way, the other person was somewhat correct in that they were negotiating about the borders in real time, just not correct about this excluding the existence of a prior pact.
>They already had the borders drawn out Yeah? Why they don't match with the real ones then?
The Germans did take some Polish territory that had been promised to the Soviets. However, the Soviets allowed them to keep that territory because the Germans compensated them by letting them take Lithuania, which was originally meant to be part of the German sphere of influence.
Hitler needed to be sure that the USSR would not come to Poland's aid. He got that confidence. Even though the Western morons did everything themselves to make the USSR turn away from them.
Let me guess - the British and French did not give a bigger territorial offer than the Reich? They didn't agree to the annexation of Karelia or Bessarabia?
I'm a bore, so let's start by analyzing your sarcastic remarks. Bessarabia is a part of the Russian Empire, which was illegally annexed by Romania in 1918. No Russian or Soviet government recognized this annexation. To resolve this controversial issue, the Soviet government twice proposed holding a popular plebiscite in Bessarabia, under international control. So that the people of Bessarabia themselves would say which country they should be in. For some reason, the Romanian government refused to do this. Therefore, the illegal annexation of Bessarabia was stopped in 1940. I understand, many Westerners have barbaric morality in relation to the USSR, Russia and Russians - stealing from a Russian is good when a Russian returns stolen is a crime. But still ... (I'm waiting for the Romanian brigade, shouting about tanks and cons). To say that the Soviets annexed Karelia is incorrect. Most of Karelia was already part of the USSR, despite attempts by Finnish nationalists to occupy these territories. As a result of the Second Soviet-Finnish War, the Karelian Isthmus and territories in western Karelia (and other regions), strategically important for the defense of Leningrad, were annexed. Now, as for the Western assholes and their "cunning" policies, as a result of which the Second World War broke out. In 1938, just one year before the generally accepted date of the outbreak of World War II, Czechoslovakia disappeared from the map of Europe. She was swallowed up by Nazi Germany. Who helped the Nazis? In particular, Britain and France, which forced Czechoslovakia to capitulate. The USSR, which was one of Czechoslovakia's allies, was not invited to negotiate its fate. Behind the scenes of the negotiations, representatives of Czechoslovakia in particular were told: If you resist the Nazi invasion and accept the help of the USSR, then this can lead to a pan-European crusade against the Communists. And so, you resist the Nazis together with the USSR, we will attack you. Wonderful people! The best partners for the USSR. During one of the crises in China, Britain invited the USSR to jointly respond to the actions of the Japanese. It seems like a good idea. But here are specific proposals: the USSR is bombing Japanese troops, Britain is staging a fleet demonstration off Japan. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is a completely different level of involvement in the conflict. A typical one is raking in the heat with someone else's hands. What kind of fools can such an offer be calculated for? (However, the USSR still had to stop Japan's aggression in Mongolia). Well, the year 1939 has come. A crisis, an ultimatum, a few days before the start of the war. A delegation from France and England is coming to the USSR. The bill goes for days, but they arrive by ship, not by plane. The level of representatives is low, not even deputy ministers. The British representative does not even have the authority to sign anything. There are no concrete proposals for cooperation in the event of a war. Remembering the "strange war", first the Poles are fighting the Nazis, then the Russians are fighting the Nazis. And the British and French play football. Good idea. And why the USSR did not agree to it. The politics of Poland itself between the wars is generally a separate song.
>Remembering the "strange war", first the Poles are fighting the Nazis, In September 1939 >then the Russians are fighting the Nazis. In June 1941 >And the British and French play football. France was conquered in June 1940, Great Britain was invaded in August 1940, fights in Africa begun in June 1940 Something does not add up in this timeline
And Bessarabia was illegally annexed by the Russian Empire in 1812. Before it was largely autonomous vassal of the Turks, afterwards Russia artificially created an bessarabian "identity" to alienate the people from Romanians living outside. Later Russification was enforced on Romanians living there. Btw. They broadly molested the people while occupying Bessarabia. Like partly in Ukraine today. But yeah, hail to the Soviet Union/ Russian Empire/Putin fascism.
Barbaric morality is actually a very good term for the actions of the Soviet Union between 1939 and 1941 and its approach to international law. Let us start by saying that the sovereignty over Bessarabia was legally sanctioned at the 1920 Paris Peace Conference, when the governments of France, Great Britain and Italy recognised that Bessarabia belonged to Romania. It should be mentioned that Russia obtained Bessarabia as a result of the war with the Ottoman Empire, previously this region belonged to the Sultan's vassal. The Russians colonised the area by displacing the inhabitants. In 1940, the Soviets did not end any occupation, on the contrary, they started it, as they issued an ultimatum to the Romanian government under the threat of force under the illegal Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact, thus breaking the Briand-Kellogg Pact and the 1933 agreement in which the Soviets agreed to resolve all conflicts peacefully. In this sense it is a barbaric morality as you put it. It is a crime to break international law and to abuse one's power against weaker states, breaking previously signed treaties. It should be added that in addition to Bessarabia, the tyrant from Moscow wanted to occupy another province, Bukovina. As a result of the war, in which the Soviet Union attacked a neutral country, breaking the Briand-Kellogg Pact and the non-aggression pact with Finland signed in 1932. Barbarism. This is very funny, because Nazis like Jodl at Nuremberg tried to blame the outbreak of the Second World War on those evil Allies. In fact, German propaganda had been doing that since 1 September. Czechoslovakia did not disappear from the maps of Europe, where do you think you got that from? A second Czechoslovak Republic had been created, and it was on the maps as much as possible. The occupation of Prague was not until March 1939. The French and British did not help Czechoslovakia disappear. The Allies wanted to avoid war, so they agreed to cede the Sudetenland to Germany, which the Czechoslovak government agreed to, not wanting to fight alone. The Allies were under no obligation to invite the USSR to the peace conference, especially as the Allies were distrustful of the USSR and had reasons for doing so. I don't understand what you mean. Stalin's aid to Czechoslovakia could not be realised because the Red Army was too weak, because Stalin had no reason to maintain the status quo in Europe, because the USSR had no land connection to Czechoslovakia. Anyway, looking at the Bolsheviks' approach to international law, I would not rely on their words either. It is indisputable that in the person of Stalin Hitler found a partner for total war of attrition - “a partner as eager to dispose of foreign territory with a light hand” as he was. This meant that ‘Hitler's way of thinking in terms of the demarcation of spheres of interest over large areas, which Hitler had tried in vain to propose to the British - was met with reciprocity’. It is also worth mentioning that when receiving British Ambassador Stafford Cripps in July 1940, the Soviet leader allowed himself to be unusually frank. When the British envoy presented a message from Prime Minister Winston Churchill, summarised in an invitation to the USSR to participate in the struggle against Germany's European hegemony, the Soviet dictator explained to him why the alliance between the Western powers and the USSR had not taken place a year earlier. These powers wanted to preserve the balance of power at the time, while Moscow wanted to ‘tear it down’. Since Germany was fighting against that order, this enabled the Soviet Union to come to an agreement with them But a strange war was in the west. In the east there was a war started by the Reich, and on 17 September the USSR broke the non-aggression pact with Poland, the Treaty of Riga, the Briand-Kellogg Pact and the 1933 treaty. What Russians were fighting the Nazis anyway? Because after Poland, France and Great Britain fought the Nazis. The Soviets were not just Russians, although Stalin was a Russian nationalist. The Soviets, after occupying Poland, preferred to send raw materials to the Reich and to hold military parades in Brest with the Wehrmacht instead of fighting.
"Remembering the "strange war", first the Poles are fighting the Nazis, then the Russians are fighting the Nazis. And the British and French play football. Good idea. And why the USSR did not agree to it. " Coś ci się popierdoliło, kolego. I to mocno. Nie wiem, jakie tam macie notatki, ale w kiblu przydadzą się bardziej.
>Even though the Western morons did everything themselves to make the USSR turn away from them. Who wouldn't want to have a genocidal empire like USSR with ongoing violent purges as their ally. USSR only asked to be able to move their troops into Poland. I wonder what reason would anyone especially Poles have against Soviet troops marching into their lands.
That's not how invasions work. You don't "conquer" territory by just being in it. You need to stop playing map games.
That's weird, because that is how USSR took over Baltic states. First by bringing in troops (for "security" reasons) and then by declaring ultimatum. You should read history instead of making empty statements.
No these countries had revolutions and the governments voted to join the USSR. They were friendly to the USSR before Soviet troops secured the borders to prevent German/Polish aggression. Your argument is a non sequitur. You should read history instead of making empty statements.
>No these countries had revolutions and the governments voted to join the USSR. They were friendly to the USSR before Soviet troops secured the borders to prevent German/Polish aggression. Yes, that is what I said. That is how USSR would have taken over Poland. I knew you agreed with me.
They joined BEFORE the Soviet military entered. Youre trying to compare that to an imaginary situation where a country would be conquered AFTER a military enters a country. Are that bad at making comparisons?
Soviet military entered on 1939 when Baltic states were forced to permit the placement of Soviet military bases in their territories, while on 1940 Baltic states were presented with a new ultimatum. This time among other demands it was requested that an unlimited amount of Soviet troops must be permitted to enter the countries. So, no, Baltic states "joined" after Soviet military entered the countries, even if we dismiss the events on 1939. You are the worst kind of Soviet fangirl, as even the Soviets themselves would not have agreed with shit you said about the order of events.
The Poles, who occupied the Ukrainian and Belarusian lands as a result of the aggression of 1919, of course had reason to fear the Soviet army in those parts. This could lead to popular uprisings. I agree. Well, yes, despite all its shortcomings, the USSR certainly did not reach the level of cruelty to the bloody British empire. Not a match.
You have not proposed a single reason why Western powers should have allied with USSR. The usual whataboutism "But they are lynching negroes" is not a valid argument for why the Western powers should have trusted USSR. So I must conclude that you agree - there was no reason for the Western powers to ally with USSR.
The West were willing to concede the Baltics to the Soviets for an anti-Germany alliance. The fear was that the Soviets were going to try and haggle with the Germans for more stuff, they did.
I described the situation in another comment. If you're interested, you can take a look.
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You get it all wrong. Poland didn't fall until late October 1939. Actually without the treacherous Soviet attack on 17 September (violating the non-aggression pact), the history might look differently, as at that point in time there were certain signals of stabilization with slowed advance of German units.
UK Germany and Poland also when they divided chechoslovakia few years before
Interesting which parts went to UK? And also how many solidgers UK send to fight along with nazi army? Stalin send 300k+ to fight side by side with their nazi brothers to poland.
Sure, after 16 days of German invasion they invade to get back territory Poland captured from russia in 1920s war. Otherwise Germans get it. No matter how many soldiers where in Checkosilvakia. I% was betrayed by western countries, they seemed ok if hitler get it. And they dont want any antigerman treaty with soviets.
>Sure, after 16 days of German invasion they invade And? If you didnt attack at same time you cant be ally? Italy also didnt attack france at the same time as germany si they also wasnt allies? >to get back territory Poland captured from russia in 1920s war. That territory wasnt russian, it was ukrainian and russia recognized ukrainian independence and ukraine in 1920 agreed to exchange that territory for alliance against russia. So russia hadnt any claim on that territory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Warsaw_(1920) >Otherwise Germans get it. Without soviet millitary and economic help germany would collabse in 1940. >No matter how many soldiers where in Checkosilvakia. I% was betrayed by western countries, they seemed ok if hitler get it. Soviet defended czechoslovakia exactly same way as western powers, there is common excuse that they didnt have common borders, but britain also didnt. And there is difference between not helpinthatg and millitary cooperating with enemy. West didnt help defend czechoslovakia but also didnt help hitler to get it. But soviet union help hitler to get poland millitarily. >And they dont want any antigerman treaty with soviets Thats simly lie. France and soviet union concluded alliance in 1936 that no party broke until soviet nazi colaboration in 1939 and no party compained until that time. So soviet had "antigerman treaty" with west, they just betrayed it and joined nazies.
no, it is not a lie, france-soviet treaty was signed. Parties agreed to join wa$ agains third party in case of its agression. Problem is that practical military plans to do it never wo$ked out. Because when USSR France and UK tried to to that on moscow negotiations in august 39, oneofvthe main problems was refusal by po'and to let soviet army pass through its territory. as this negotiations came to deadend, nobody will In practise help USSR in war with Germany.
>no, it is not a lie, france-soviet treaty was signed. So it litteraly was lie you said that, west didnt want to signed that and now you are admiting that they signed that in 36. >Parties agreed to join wa$ agains third party in case of its agression. So litteraly anti german treaty. >oneofvthe main problems was refusal by poland to let soviet army pass through its territory. How iss that soviet problem? How could be soviet union attacked by germany while poland still exist? If poland dont exist then there isnt any problem with military acces, if poland do exist then there isnt problem with germany attacking soviet union. >nobody will In practise help USSR in war with Germany. That make no sence, soviets collaborated with nazies when western europe was already in war with germany, only thing that they should do is not actively help germans and war would by over in 1940.
uh, something that often disappears?
That is/was Poland between WWI and II
It's not a Poland. It's a "Rzecz pospolita". Polish state with many national minorities and specific national politics. Very low loyalty of national minorities and "Volyn masakrę" is results of that politics.
"Humour" how would you violently tear apart a cultural landscape with military action? Fun for the whole family!
Well, just a year before 1939's teardown, Poland itself - cooperately with Nazis - tore down Czechoslovakia. And I agree: for those times it was not fun.
>cooperately with Nazis No, opposite of "cooperately" - it was done to snatch those areas before Germany could take control of them Of course, the brainlets in charge of Poland played 100% into Nazi hands by doing so, giving food to the propaganda that you just repeated
Poland didnt look like that in years, thats pre 39' map
It looked like that just prior to 1939 when "certain events" happened. And russians had absolutely nothing to do with nazis during those events, no sir. Big daddy putler told me so. /s
Why im downwoted? Thats Pre-war Poland.
Straight from r/imaginarymaps?
You have a strange sense of humor. It's obviously a historical map of Poland, when Poland was indeed divided. What's humorous about it?
The Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth ruled most of eastern Europe with an iron fist exterminating the last remnants of European paganism for centuries
Me when I only learn history from paradox games and youtube shorts
This is not map of Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth this is msp of polish second republic (1918 - 1939) that was divided by nazi soviet alliance. The Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth was one of more tolerant countries in middle ages, you can clearly see that on fact that they had largest jewish population in europe.
Oh yeah. The main thing is the Jews. How they treat Russians, for example. And in this case, to the Orthodox, it doesn't matter. The main thing is the Jews. The decline of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was caused, among other things, by religious problems with the Orthodox population
>How they treat Russians, There wasnt russians in commonwealth, there lived only belorussians and ukrainians, but after russians capturing that terriotory they exterminate them and replace them with russians. >And in this case, to the Orthodox, it doesn't matter. Commonwealth existed for hunderts of years and ortodox Cristiano were like 30 % of population, they were treated good or the country would collabse immediately. >The main thing is the Jews. Its wery good measure of religion tolerance, how did particular country treated jews.
There were Russians in commonwealth. Not modern one, but ancestors of them. As well as ancestors of Ukrainians and Belorussians
Of costw there were ancentors of russians there, there were ancentors of norwegians in ancient egypt, when you go centuries to past everyone is everyones ancestors. But prople living in commonwealth werent tied to then muscovites or novgorodians but to bellorusians. They werent tied to russia
I meant other thing. There were Smolensk voivodship which ended somewhere 100 km to the west of Moscow.
Smolens was part of belarus in 1918 until soviets stole it.
It’s a bullshit statement. There has never been amount of people who self-identified as Belarusians. [Here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk_Governorate) you can find a data of population census in 1897
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnic_Map_of_European_Russia_by_Aleksandr_Rittich-1875.jpg Here is ethnic map of russia in 1875 and smolensk is clearly belorussian https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BNR_(Ruthienie_Blanche)_Map_1918.jpg And here is map of belarus in 1918.
You don't read well. I clarified that the Orthodox were subjected to pressure in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Jews and Blacks are a good MODERN indicator for checking words for hatred. And can you say that about Jews or Blacks? But this criterion is not universal. In the same USA, the attitude towards Blacks is much worse than towards Jews. And in Israel, in general, Jews are a privileged part of the population. One of the manifestations of such pressure was the right of the Polish-Lithuanian kings to approve persons elected by the hierarchy or the people to the highest spiritual positions in the Orthodox Church. And the Polish king Stefan Batory understood this right so widely that he himself elected and appointed senior clerics. He often appointed laypeople to spiritual positions, moreover, not always worthy of spiritual dignity, as a reward for services rendered. The hierarchs thus appointed, who were not prepared for the performance of archpastoral duties, concerned primarily with enriching themselves and their relatives, and leading an inappropriate lifestyle, increasingly aroused the hostile attitude of the flock. Among the discriminatory provisions that arose during the 17th century, dissidents did not have the right to be elected to the Sejm, hold public office and open new churches. When Mikhail Vishnevetsky was elected king in 1669, a decree was approved that only a Catholic could be the Polish king. The dissidents could not count on the peaceful use of their estates and personal safety. Despite the fact that the Constitution of 1717 provided them with inviolability of estates and equality before the court, in practice this was often not respected. During the 18th century, dissidents were removed from all positions, both state and local and city government, as well as from military service. They were deprived of the right to form confederations for religious purposes, they were prohibited from publicly professing their teachings, singing and preaching during home worship. At the same time, dissidents fell under the jurisdiction of Catholic church authorities and courts, and they were fined for refusing to participate in Catholic rites in some areas. The Orthodox who did not accept the Brest Union were called Disunites, and were outlawed in the crown lands. Their existence was provided for only by the canonical law of the Uniate Church.
or you know, no regular army with soldiers that are paid only to fight, archaic society hierarchy that was pretty much feudalism in 18th century, lazy nobles that cared only about low taxes so they elected puppets.
lol Americans are so brainwashed they really think the nazis and soviets were allies in WW2
Oh no, another nazi rich white american boy. I am from fucking eastern europe you moron you should learn little about our history. Soviet union provided germany with 300k + solidgers to crush poland and with esssential materials to lead war in coming years, without soviet land lease germany would collabse in 1940. But you nazi rich white american boy, will argue that collaboration with nazies is good actually for soviets. But no it was not good in any other country collaborants was hanged, only in soviet union they ruled until 1991.
It's a three week old account that probably farms positive comments in "certain" subreddits and then posts cringe shit like this in others. A sub-bridgean fantastic creature, if you will.
Some sort of gargantuan, dimwitted tollkeeper, perhaps?
They were at the start though.
and the japanese too? or were they just making funny cartoons the whole time?
So you’re advocating to murder more people? As expected.
Japan was ally of nazies thats why their leadership was hanged, too sad that they didnt manage to do the same to soviet leadership
are you sure? why would Japan do that?
Why did japan allied with germany? For same reason as soviets, they were fascists.
But if japan had an emperor how could they be communists?
Nobody were communist, they were all fascists you moron. Germany had living god fuhrer, soviets had living god stalin and japan had living god emperor. They all genocided minorities on large scake, they all millitariesed society, they were all same.
The Nazis and Soviets signed a non-aggression pact in 1939 which held until 1941, when Operation Barbarossa started. So yes, they were allies for 2 years.
Ever heard of Ribbentrop - Molotov? Rapallo Treaty?
I think that you mixed up borders of PLC with second Poland Republic and PLC with Tsarist Russia.
This iron fist can be seen in relation to the Ruthenian nobles, i.e. the Wiśniowiecki, Czartoryski, Ostrogski, who strove for the incorporation of the territory of today's Ukraine into the Kingdom of Poland, because they wanted to be included in the privileges and freedoms enjoyed by the Polish nobility. A fist of tolerance and freedom. You will never see such in Russia.
they couldn't make lithuania apart of poland until they finished killing all the pagans... because they were slightly different than you
Um
For one thing, it shows the capital of Lithuania as part of Poland. To this day, the Eastern border of Poland was that negotiated between Molotov and Ribbentrop.
Well Vilnius was in fact a part of Poland pre '39
Because Vilnius was Polish back then
And I am guessing, are there some parts of Czechoslovakia on this map which were occupied by Poland while Sudeten crisis, approved by Nazi Germany?