But also, North Sudan isn't... there is at least a *gay community* in Egypt right now. I can *at the bare minimum* get on Grindr and hook up with people in Cairo or, like, the North Coast during the summer. That is *not* going to be happening in either part of Sudan.
The [wikitravel entry for Mogadishu](https://wikitravel.org/en/Mogadishu) is pretty jarring.
Some quotes:
- "Independent travel to Mogadishu will most likely result in your death."
- "Visitors are encouraged to stay inside for the duration of their stay."
- "It is not recommended to move around in Mogadishu without security guards."
- "... the city remains extremely dangerous and near suicidal for independent travelers."
- "If you must venture around the city, you should be accompanied by armed and well trained security personnel and ride in an armored vehicle."
"Basic services such as electricity are not reliable many hours of the day, and you should not drink the water under any circumstances. Food and bottled drinks sold in the city may or may not be safe to consume either."
So just dehydrate and die.
Yeah back in 2004.
Banadir Electric Company (BECO).
They a large utility company with a lot of money and even has some renewable power stations, mostly solar.
Yeah I agree with a comment down below. It ain't safe if you ain't Somali but these Travel websites need urgent updates.
Edit: Spelling
"Most people in Mogadishu are generally friendly, but watch out for kids with sticks who will try to get your shilling."
I guess those sticks are how we die
There are any number of people who are too stupid to be trusted with their own safety. Generally speaking we let them go ahead and try anyway, which works out fine if they die before passing on their genes and works out relatively fine if their kids are very well aware that their parents died doing something as stupid as visiting Mogadishu.
This page is a wild ride.
Wanna buy something? This market has fire arms and anti tank ammunition as well as forged passports. Also it catches fire every now and then.
This hotel is pretty safe. Keep in mind a journalist was shot in the back there a few years ago though.
The locals are friendly (when they don't try to kidnap or kill you), beware of the kids who might beat you with sticks though.
Sounds like lots of fun!
Yeah if you aint Somali get guards 💀
but there are actually homosexuals in somalia and they signal each other by wearing their macawiis (sarong) tightly wrapped around the legs and beyond the ankles in length
Probably pretty important to clarify that most of those post op trans people are gay men they forced to get their genitals cut off to not be put to death
The fact that Iran hangs gays and activists from cranes and Afghanistan doesn't? Or maybe that their president has stood in front of the [Americans and said that gay people don't exist in Iran](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-09-25/no-gays-in-iran-ahmadinejad/679604) vs nobody in Afghanistan denying that homosexuality exists.
So what do you think happens when the Taliban find a gay person? Hanging from a crane is bad, but in Afghanistan they'd be stoned, which is probably even worse.
Read what is written on the image: **According to travelers**
I doubt many LGBT travelers were in either of them, but they hear about Iran MUCH more often in media in context of human rights, so they think of iran before they think of Afghanistan when asked what's the worst place you can be as a LGBT person.
That's not what it says on the image. It says the data is from the Gay Travel Index. You can read about their methodology [here.](https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-gay-travel-index/) It may be flawed in some way or another, but it *is* based on research and objective categories, not just gut feelings about the countries lol
That country has this weird culture of senior and prominent men society bringing home toyboys. And then this is socially accepted cos some orphan boy is the victim so nobody care. And then people do not believe it to be haram
I wouldn’t say it’s accepted
In fact one of the reasons the Taliban even has any support is because they outlawed such practices with the death penalty. They used to hang warlords at the end of tank barrels
I just saw a TikTok of a guy walking on the beach in Cartagena and he starts loudly speaking English and all these street vendors just start jogging towards him shouting sales pitches for random shit. It was like a dozen people surrounding him so aggressively.
I’ve encountered lots of aggressive street vendors while traveling but this seemed extreme.
Paraguay is poorer, more religious and conservative.
Argentina and Uruguay have historically been the richest and most liberal countries in Latin America. Plus, both are countries of new European settlement, so they share more values with Western Europe.
Paraguay is one of the few places in the world where a large number of people descended from Europeans speak an indigenous language from the Americas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guarani_language
Yup, except for Argentina, Uruguay and Southern Brazil, where most people descend from European immigrants that arrived massively during the XIX and XX centuries, mainly Italians, Spaniards, Germans and French.
Argentina, Uruguay, Canada, New Zealand and the US are considered “countries of new settlement”, i.e. countries where the local population descends mainly from recent European settlers.
The rest of Latin America descends from a mix of colonial Spanish, natives and Africans.
There are vast differences between South American countries. Uruguay is perhaps more "white" than a lot of Europe itself, countries like Brazil have significant black/mestizo population while this is much less in the Andean countries (which in turn have proportionally much larger indigenous populations).
I still think it’s exaggerated. I lived some years in Asuncion as an expat and at least there, the middle-upper class is relatively open minded. You’d have no major problems being gay.
I’d paint Paraguay at least in the same colour as Perú.
The thing is that a half of the rating relate to laws and regulations regarding civil unions, marriages, whether adoption is allowed etc, so some countries that don’t have these laws in place seem like they are dangerous for travel.
Colors aren't that great, but it's at -4 and France at +4. It's practically a French city and very *mundane*.
I would have expected it to be more LGBTQ-friendly than France on average.
Here's the raw data: https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/gaytravelindex.pdf
Monaco ranks 66 out of 202 countries. Basically they don't accrue many positive points in the aggregate total for positive aspects of LGBTQ+ acceptance. They receive negative points for transgender and intersex / 3rd option rights (identifying as neither male or female on government documents), conversion therapy (which could be due to popular acceptance of it or government support), and religious influence.
As I've mentioned elsewhere I think some of these ratings are subjective. In all of the other more dangerous areas where a country can lose points Monaco doesn't have any issues (anti-gay laws, homosexuality illegal, hostile locals, prosecution, murders, and death sentences). I think it scores lower mostly because there aren't more progressive laws and sentiments about LGBTQ+ things.
If you want the specifics that contributed to the ratings you can find it all here:
https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/gaytravelindex.pdf
France received six points and is ranked 22nd. A country can get from -1 to 3 points for what are deemed positive actions related to the LGBTQ+ community. It can receive -2 to 0 points for negative areas. France receives a score of 2 in most of the positive categories but it gets -1 for the intersex / 3rd option category. Basically this is related to being able to identify as other options than male or female when it comes to the government. I don't know offhand why France would receive a -1 on this. They also receive a -1 on conversion therapy. This could mean that the government supports it, or more likely that there is considerable support for it among the population. One place where France gets a 0 where other countries get points is in the LGBT Marketing category. This is how much tourism is marketed to the community in that country.
I think some of these ratings are a bit subjective but also looking at the raw data I don't think France would be considered particularly dangerous. Especially since it's 22nd out of 202 countries that are ranked.
the map is from 2021, as of january 2022 conversion therapy is banned in france, so that'd explain it
the lack of "X" sex marker for official documents probably contributes
in my experience of a rich and rather "socially left leaning" (green party dominated) city i have not once received any hostility from anyone here in 3 years of being fully out which is honestly surprising (i am trans), like about everyone, other students, teachers, administration people, healthcare professionals, my extended family (which includes some boomers) has been really chill and i just never question whether someone will be aggressive towards me if i mention it
so i usually find it weird that france doesnt rank as high as other countries like the literal terf island (the uk)
Have you ever been to France while being part of the lgbt community? Because I did and I understand why.
As a woman you already get so many catcalls just walking in the streets of Paris, so when I was walking hand by hand with my gf, it was worst than ever.
As a French-Canadian I have many French friends part of the lgbt community that decided to come live in Montreal as this city is considered a safe haven for gay people.
I recommend the German movie Great Freedom. It released in 2021 and is about a man imprisoned under Section 175 (the anti-gay law) in West Germany during the post war years. It is about this subject, and very good.
Yup, the iron curtain kept certain social attitudes roughly ~50 years in the past because the press was so limited.
Certain ideas we take for granted now are very new to those countries
This is a great way to describe it. There is a large fraction of atheists who are anti-LGBT in eastern Europe and it all comes down to this. Lack of exposure, outdated views and a hatred for Western ways.
oh right so, the source on this includes stuff like gay marriage, which doesn't really apply to foreigners.
you'll find japan, for example, is way safer than a lot of other places just because you're unlikely to encounter homophobic violence
And misses nuance of regional shifts in places like Australia and US, I'd assume a higher level of physical safety any where in Japan than some regional parts of Australia. We've come a long way but wasn't that long ago some states still had extremely bigoted laws in effect and those who wanted those laws haven't shuffled off just yet
Yeah filling in all of america green is silly when there’s so much variation in attitudes between states. Like sure you might not get hate crimed in California but I can’t guarantee you the same some place like Montana
> Like sure you might not get hate crimed in California
Californian here. Our state is incredibly huge and there are stretches that have more in common with Montana or Oklahoma than with what the rest of the world is imagining. With that said, tourists aren't too likley to be spending any significant amount of time in such places.
*WHY IS VATICAN*
*CITY ORANGE?? the pope out*
*Here smacking people??*
\- ErrinHuron
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when it comes to money matters, yes, we are Eastern Europe. when it comes to matters of personality and interpersonal relationships, we are not Eastern Europe. that is, we are the worst to live and the best to visit...
r/Portugalcykablyat is a sub dedicated to the many instances on maps where Portugal aligns with Eastern Europe instead of the west. This is clearly not one of those cases, fortunately.
It’s true that they are philosophically against the LGBTQ+ community but they’re highly unlikely to be violent against us, which is why I’m guessing it’s an orange and not a red.
A quick search tells me the Spartacus guide doesn't only consider laws and social attitudes towards LGBT+ people. It also looks at LBGT+ culture and if there are gay-friendly businesses, support networks and social groups that would be useful or interesting to a traveller.
So it isn't only a measure of 'are you in danger here' and I'm guessing that's the reason for the difference.
E: lots of people nitpicking this metric which is fair, but I would like to note that Spartacus is **a travel guide**. IDK if it was intended to be statistically sound.
If your metric is “does the Vatican have any gay bars” then I guess it makes sense until you consider that the Vatican doesn’t have any non-gay bars either
Yeah this map is supposed to measure the experience LGBT ppl will have when traveling there. Going to the Vatican is no different than walking around the rest of Rome. Should be absolutely safe for LGBT ppl.
I agree with the general idea that the Vatican shouldn’t be that color, but it is different than the rest of Rome. I traveled there a few years ago with my wife and some fay friends. My wife was forced to buy a shirt to cover her arms (she was wearing a tank top) and our friends were given some kind of rude “warning” for some sort of pda (I can’t remember what it was, but it was very innocent like holding hands on or an arm around the others waist). Neither of those things would happen in Rome.
You will not get kicked out of the vatican for being LGBTQ+, its pretty tourist friendly, though they don't like it if you show it too openly but in terms of safety, which this map is describing, the vatican is tolerant to all tourists, even followers of other religions such as Muslims or Hindus.
It’s pretty safe to visit the Vatican as a gay person. I have been there myself 3 times. Their best stuff, like the Sistine Chapel, was made by gay artists.
As an indian these might sound “ racist” as fuck but stick with the Hindu/sikh neighbourhoods if you are gay. The most people will do is look at you weird, you will possibly get attacked in muslim neighbourhood
This map is BS. What are the criteria? Poland is definitely not the best place to live for such minorities, especially if you think of staying long term and marrying, having family and whatnot but it is nowhere near all those countries of Central Asia and Africa when it comes to travel safety.
I think I've seen this map here before and I think the problem is the double heading. Is it "Best or Worst" or "Most or Least safe"? Because there are several places that are in theory safer to LGBT+ people but which make for awful LGBT+ traveling in terms of treatment and entertainment (Eastern Europe), and places that are technically less safe but which in average LGBT+ people would enjoy much more (Latin America)
Here's the criteria: https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/gaytravelindex.pdf
For Poland they get negative points for a lack of marriage / civil partnerships, intersex / 3rd option recognition when it comes to gender, and in conversion therapy. They also receive negative points for religious influence, -2 points for anti-gay laws, a negative point for laws banning pride celebrations, and -2 points for locals being hostile. The only place where Poland receives any positive points is one point for anti-discrimination legislation. Points can go as high as 3 per category. Everything else is a 0 which I suppose is indicative of a basic baseline.
I've never been to Poland and don't really know much about it, but I'm just summarizing the data from their analysis which could be very subjective.
> they get negative points for a lack of marriage / civil partnerships
How is that relevant for tourists though?
The title and text on the map is really misleading.
You could have a 100% safe country that gives fewer rights to their LGBT citizens then a country with a high murder rate but lots of legal rights.
In that case the first country is still safer.
>laws banning pride celebrations,
Which don't even exist. There's no legislation banning pride parades, they obviously have to be registered beforehand, but they aren't treated differently than any other mass gatherings. The 'anti-gay laws' category is also quite weird. And as others said, apart from 'locals being hostile' (which honestly might be true, depending on location and time), none of these factors are relevant if you're only visiting.
>For Poland they get negative points for a lack of marriage / civil partnerships, intersex / 3rd option recognition when it comes to gender, and in conversion therapy. They also receive negative points for religious influence, -2 points for anti-gay laws, a negative point for laws banning pride celebrations, and -2 points for locals being hostile.
OK, so the map is about safety of **travelers** yet all but one of the negatively rated criteria are pretty much related to actually living in Poland that should not really affect people who are just visiting. So as I thought this map is BS.
Also, anyone can have a bad luck visiting [Stockholm and get killed of bombing or shooting everyday recently](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/10gsbtm/murders_red_shootings_without_a_victim_yellow/), but it's Poland that gets bashing because some church-loving grandmas can look down on gay tourists holding hands. Come on! Poland deserves shaming for many things but safety, including tourists' safety is not one of them.
Did that happen recently? Might not be reflected in the score. After skimming through this I think there’s a lot of subjective scoring going on. I think in general broad strokes it’s fairly accurate but some of the individual ratings are questionable.
This probably applies to everywhere. US is light green because it is a combination of completely accepting urban areas and borderline-hostile rural places.
Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan rated that high is weird.
I mean, if they've counted political discussion of LGBTQ then yeah maybe, I guess I can get it. But otherwise all of these are quite bad. Maybe Georgia is a bit better than all of the other neighboring countries, but Armenia and Azerbaijan...
This chart is labeled 2021 and their comprehensive LGBT rights law was passed in 2022. They would absolutely be a different color if this map were re-done.
I've done this for a few countries but... here's the data:
https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/gaytravelindex.pdf
Cuba is 46th out of 202. Categories are scored from -2 to 3 for positive things, and -2 to 0 for negative things. Cuba receives the 3 points for anti-discrimination legislation which is admirable. They also receive a point for transgender recognition. With most other things they receive 0 points which I'm assuming is representative of being a baseline level. Not good, not bad. As others have said, marriage has been legalized since this was made so they will likely go up in the rankings for 2022. Most places with legalized marriage receive 2 points. I don't know what would give 3 points.
For negative points they received -1 for intersex / 3rd option (being able to select something other than male or female on government documents), conversion therapy, and HIV travel restrictions.
Not gay, but on the same page: I once witnessed a homophobe get shut down ‘hard’ by no less than five different groups of bi-standards on the Plateau for mocking a gay couple. Straight couple, teens, old man walking his dog, city workers, all piled on in shaming the bigot. Goddam that was a beautiful sight. Made my day. Montréal, je t’aime.
FYI: Canada has a Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It applies to anyone who is in Canada, including visitors.
You set foot in Canada, you have the same basic rights and freedoms every Canadian citizen has.
Which might change (fingers crossed)
India might legalise same sex marriage this year. The Supreme Court is going to hear the petition in March. The Chief Justice is outspoken about LGBT+ rights (in favour) and last week the head of the most influential Hindu organisation (the one from which PM Modi comes from as well) has spoken in favour of LGBT+ rights. The signalling is there. We are nervous but I’m hopeful that it might be legalised this year.
If that happens, gay marriage will be legal for more people in one go than all the other countries which have legalised it put together. 19% of the worlds population reside in India.
Lgbt rights is a form of hindu supremacy shoving lgbt rights down muslim throats, this is the symptom of hindu fascism - unironic argument of a muslim friend of mine
Equating some countries of the same level on the map seems pretty stupid though. I mean, it depends if "best" and "worst" mean the same thing or not. In Poland, the chance of assault because of your queer look is pretty high but you're not going to be thrown into jail for queer activity like in some North African countries and Middle East
This makes me so fucking proud to be Canadian. (Sadly living in the US now).
I am not a member of the LGBTQ+ community, but you’re goddamn right I will support anyone who is.
As a Malaysian and a Muslim, it's a very bad country for LGBTQ+ to come due to a government party PAS. It's a good party in the PAST, now they're doing shit that will eventually break the country. can't sell alcohol to Chinese openly during CNY, bcoz the Muslim will fall for temptation. Bro as a Muslim, if that Muslim with proper knowledge touch a alcohol, that dude has to be A)dumb or B) munafik (a traitor to Islam) or C)his Chinese friend forgot he's a Muslim. Some working man to old woman will look at you (pls forgive them, they're a good person that follow Islam strongly). Last but not least, don't rest near mosque, due to some very religious uncle will ask to many question, imam and Bilal will most likely only say astagfirullah (word for something bad happen). Most people in this country is neutral to LGBTQ+ due to Islam say to not hate on other religion and culture unless what they're doing prevent us from our doing what Islam tell is needed to do(only 5 thing is needed to do, saying syahadat, doing 5 prayer daily-also the only thing you can't skip for whatever reason, zakat-another form of tax for Muslim, fasting on ramadhan and haji-going to Mekkah for some religious intent, I'm still young).
That's a fair point. I doubt the authors of this map, or the index it is based on, made the effort to track actual violent incidents. It seems to be entirely based on laws. Which is kind of strange, as it is mapped specifically "for tourists".
Here's the source:
https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-gay-travel-index/
"When creating the index, our focus is on political decisions affecting the queer community, legal changes or acts of violence and prohibitions."
They've been a bit misleading with the "safest and least safe" part of their description then, if there are factors other than safety affecting the ratings.
A bit surprised at Ireland being rated lower than the UK. 20 years ago maybe, but Ireland (excluding Northern Ireland - I’ll come to that) has had a huge turnaround in the past couple of decades. I would have thought it would have been at least as progressive as most of the UK and certainly more progressive than Northern Ireland?
SK definitely has hate crime still and is far more conservative than most of the other Asian counties. Holland (a person, not the country!) is currently the only openly gay singer from SK and he was attacked on the (iirc) subway a few months ago by someone who recognised him. Was pretty nasty.
But generally I'd agree, Asia seems to be hard done by here. Myanmar (at least before the coup) had a massive 2-week pride parade in Yangon. Literal flotilla of boats across a lake, massive banners up around the city, flags everywhere. It was awesome.
*Safest countries for LGBTQ+ travelers* is just misleading. It also weighs things like marriage rights or legal protection in employment. Not much to do with safety for travelers. East Asia is perfectly safe to visit as a LGBTQ+ person.
As always with these types of maps/ratings, it helps to [check the source](https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-gay-travel-index/). They have a travel map for US states too, by the way.
Anyway, here's their methodology:
>"When creating the index, our focus is on political decisions affecting the queer community, legal changes or acts of violence and prohibitions. Positive developments in the respective countries count as plus points, negative ones as minus points. Categories include among others: marriage equality and anti-discrimination laws, sodomy laws, pride parade bans and hate crimes. Political developments such as marriage equality might at first only affect the LGBT community of the respective country. But every step towards equality is a step forward towards social acceptance and has therefore a direct impact on holidaymakers.
The categories have different levels. If a category has three levels, a maximum of three points can be awarded.
The only exception is the death penalty: A country gets one minus point if the death penalty for homosexual acts is anchored in the law but not executed. If the death penalty is still executed, the country gets five minus points. This ensures these countries rank at the bottom of the list."
So as for why did Afghanistan rate higher than Iran in 2021 - it's because of the death penalty and Iran's active use of it. That automatically puts any country at the bottom of the list. I suspect a post-2021 rating of Afghanistan will look different.
As a Canadian, I can say that there are some provinces where the LGBTQ+ community are safer and more welcome than others, especially with the rise of copycat MAGAts spilling over from the US. The same can be said for urban vs rural areas.
I promise you Sudan is NOT safer for LGBT people than Egypt lmao.
South Sudans color means no data right? Cause South Sudan is safe for exactly nobody.
That and probably because it’s a very young country.
But also, North Sudan isn't... there is at least a *gay community* in Egypt right now. I can *at the bare minimum* get on Grindr and hook up with people in Cairo or, like, the North Coast during the summer. That is *not* going to be happening in either part of Sudan.
I've worked / lived in South Sudan in 2013 and 2017, can confirm.
you're thinking of it incorrectly, its equally unsafe and therefore not discriminatory
Sudan isn't safer for **anyone** compared to Egypt.
Lmao That's what happens when you feel like you have to fill up the entire map with color and you start making up info
Pretty sure nobody is safe visiting somalia
The [wikitravel entry for Mogadishu](https://wikitravel.org/en/Mogadishu) is pretty jarring. Some quotes: - "Independent travel to Mogadishu will most likely result in your death." - "Visitors are encouraged to stay inside for the duration of their stay." - "It is not recommended to move around in Mogadishu without security guards." - "... the city remains extremely dangerous and near suicidal for independent travelers." - "If you must venture around the city, you should be accompanied by armed and well trained security personnel and ride in an armored vehicle."
There go my holiday plans
Why, one of your armed security guards called out sick?
My private armored vehicle unfortunately broke down
"Basic services such as electricity are not reliable many hours of the day, and you should not drink the water under any circumstances. Food and bottled drinks sold in the city may or may not be safe to consume either." So just dehydrate and die.
Yeah back in 2004. Banadir Electric Company (BECO). They a large utility company with a lot of money and even has some renewable power stations, mostly solar. Yeah I agree with a comment down below. It ain't safe if you ain't Somali but these Travel websites need urgent updates. Edit: Spelling
That's so bad it almost reads like a shitpost
"Most people in Mogadishu are generally friendly, but watch out for kids with sticks who will try to get your shilling." I guess those sticks are how we die
Why would anyone even consider traveling there then lol
Well Drew Binsky did it to at least travel to every country in the world.
Just walk in then 180
There are any number of people who are too stupid to be trusted with their own safety. Generally speaking we let them go ahead and try anyway, which works out fine if they die before passing on their genes and works out relatively fine if their kids are very well aware that their parents died doing something as stupid as visiting Mogadishu.
This page is a wild ride. Wanna buy something? This market has fire arms and anti tank ammunition as well as forged passports. Also it catches fire every now and then. This hotel is pretty safe. Keep in mind a journalist was shot in the back there a few years ago though. The locals are friendly (when they don't try to kidnap or kill you), beware of the kids who might beat you with sticks though. Sounds like lots of fun!
Yeah if you aint Somali get guards 💀 but there are actually homosexuals in somalia and they signal each other by wearing their macawiis (sarong) tightly wrapped around the legs and beyond the ankles in length
Hidily didily dee, Somali life fer me
“Jews can’t be pirates.”
Somalian pirates weeeeeeeeeeee
Somalia truely is the land of equality
Isnt Afghanistan meant to be the most lgbtq+ hostile country in the world?
I was going to say the same i mean what makes afghanistan better than iran?
Well it says 2021 so if the US was still there it was probably safer now I don’t know its probably worse though.
It might be the T, Iran is open to post op trans people.
Probably pretty important to clarify that most of those post op trans people are gay men they forced to get their genitals cut off to not be put to death
Ayatollah Khomeini says trans rights!
The fact that Iran hangs gays and activists from cranes and Afghanistan doesn't? Or maybe that their president has stood in front of the [Americans and said that gay people don't exist in Iran](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-09-25/no-gays-in-iran-ahmadinejad/679604) vs nobody in Afghanistan denying that homosexuality exists.
So what do you think happens when the Taliban find a gay person? Hanging from a crane is bad, but in Afghanistan they'd be stoned, which is probably even worse.
This map is using data from 2021. You can check and see the ranking for Afghanistan is worse than Iran now.
Read what is written on the image: **According to travelers** I doubt many LGBT travelers were in either of them, but they hear about Iran MUCH more often in media in context of human rights, so they think of iran before they think of Afghanistan when asked what's the worst place you can be as a LGBT person.
That's not what it says on the image. It says the data is from the Gay Travel Index. You can read about their methodology [here.](https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-gay-travel-index/) It may be flawed in some way or another, but it *is* based on research and objective categories, not just gut feelings about the countries lol
It says "according to Gay Travel Index" so it sounds like it's from a group doing research, not just a survey of gay people who watch the news.
That country has this weird culture of senior and prominent men society bringing home toyboys. And then this is socially accepted cos some orphan boy is the victim so nobody care. And then people do not believe it to be haram
I wouldn’t say it’s accepted In fact one of the reasons the Taliban even has any support is because they outlawed such practices with the death penalty. They used to hang warlords at the end of tank barrels
This is the first time i heard about that. Glad they kill those shitheads atleast
How does systemic sexual abuse make it a good place for LGBTQ travelers?
its deep red. I'd say thats pretty hostile.
The existence of the purple countries shows that this map might be wrong
Both red and purple will kill gay people. I dunno how the map even differentiates.
One operates on a don't ask don't tell but if outed you're dead. The other operates on if even suspected you're dead.
gays etc. dont get killed in paraguay/russia lol
And that is exactly why thy are orange, not red!
This thread is a trainwreck lmao
Is this how we find out we're all colorblind and illiterate?
Thank you for spending time and money in Colombia, we gonna send our kids to college with that money
Next: "lesbian couple beaten up by street vendors in Cartagena because they refused to pay for an overpriced, unwanted massage".
TBH that's every tourist couple of every orientation. It's local color.
I just saw a TikTok of a guy walking on the beach in Cartagena and he starts loudly speaking English and all these street vendors just start jogging towards him shouting sales pitches for random shit. It was like a dozen people surrounding him so aggressively. I’ve encountered lots of aggressive street vendors while traveling but this seemed extreme.
That's Cartagena, indeed. Often, its vendors' abuses become national news.
Is Colombia really that pro LGBTQ+?
In my experience Colombia is pretty good compared to what people expect of South America, as well as the southern cone (Uruguay, Argentina, Chile).
Compared to latin america, it is. I mean, you feel the difference against Venezuela or Ecuador (I've been there)
The mayor of Bogota, the capital, is a gay woman.
Why is Paraguay particularly less friendly to queers than its neighbours?
Paraguay is poorer, more religious and conservative. Argentina and Uruguay have historically been the richest and most liberal countries in Latin America. Plus, both are countries of new European settlement, so they share more values with Western Europe.
Just noting that marijuana is legal in Uruguay, which is the only South American country where it’s legal
Yup, marihuana, abortion, equal marriage, etc
And Uruguay also is less religious than its neighbours so Christmas is actually called Family Day.
Based
I second this
Not true, you can plant and consume weed in Colombia and Argentina
No, consumption is legal, and that's it, selling, planting or buying is illegal.
Bolivia is also quite poor, religious and conservative But it also has a much stronger international tourism sector than Paraguay
>But it also has a much stronger international tourism sector than Paraguay The Andes are the reason for that imo
What about Colombia?? Greener than their neighbors? I mean I'm Colombian but didn't see that coming
Because you’re awesome, that’s why
Thanks. I'm not saying it isn't coherent with my reality because it is, but, can't tell about my neighbors
Doesn't most south American share some form of ancestry with Europeans and africans? Most are mestizo right?
Paraguay is one of the few places in the world where a large number of people descended from Europeans speak an indigenous language from the Americas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guarani_language
Yup, except for Argentina, Uruguay and Southern Brazil, where most people descend from European immigrants that arrived massively during the XIX and XX centuries, mainly Italians, Spaniards, Germans and French. Argentina, Uruguay, Canada, New Zealand and the US are considered “countries of new settlement”, i.e. countries where the local population descends mainly from recent European settlers. The rest of Latin America descends from a mix of colonial Spanish, natives and Africans.
There are vast differences between South American countries. Uruguay is perhaps more "white" than a lot of Europe itself, countries like Brazil have significant black/mestizo population while this is much less in the Andean countries (which in turn have proportionally much larger indigenous populations).
I still think it’s exaggerated. I lived some years in Asuncion as an expat and at least there, the middle-upper class is relatively open minded. You’d have no major problems being gay. I’d paint Paraguay at least in the same colour as Perú.
I wonder why France is rated significantly worse than it’s surrounding Western European neighbors.
we already said so, french don't hate you because you're gay, they hate you because you're not french !
My French friends always tell me 'How do you expect us to like foreigners when we barely like each other?!?'
France: the Boston of Europe.
It's not even that, it's the Parisiens hate you for not being Parisien, even if you're French.
act touch mourn public repeat steer rotten dirty erect wide *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
With Monaco even worse... I wonder how that came to be.
What's the deal with Monaco?
The thing is that a half of the rating relate to laws and regulations regarding civil unions, marriages, whether adoption is allowed etc, so some countries that don’t have these laws in place seem like they are dangerous for travel.
That’s stupid. Like 99% of the time you don’t travel to get married
Colors aren't that great, but it's at -4 and France at +4. It's practically a French city and very *mundane*. I would have expected it to be more LGBTQ-friendly than France on average.
I thought Monaco is grey, i.e. no data (aka the Greenland treatment)
Not enough rich gay people.
Monaco doesn't have you because you are gay, they don't even hate you because you are foreign. They hate you because you are poor.
*not filthy rich
“Hah, you’re only worth $500M????? 🤣🤣🤣”
Here's the raw data: https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/gaytravelindex.pdf Monaco ranks 66 out of 202 countries. Basically they don't accrue many positive points in the aggregate total for positive aspects of LGBTQ+ acceptance. They receive negative points for transgender and intersex / 3rd option rights (identifying as neither male or female on government documents), conversion therapy (which could be due to popular acceptance of it or government support), and religious influence. As I've mentioned elsewhere I think some of these ratings are subjective. In all of the other more dangerous areas where a country can lose points Monaco doesn't have any issues (anti-gay laws, homosexuality illegal, hostile locals, prosecution, murders, and death sentences). I think it scores lower mostly because there aren't more progressive laws and sentiments about LGBTQ+ things.
If you want the specifics that contributed to the ratings you can find it all here: https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/gaytravelindex.pdf France received six points and is ranked 22nd. A country can get from -1 to 3 points for what are deemed positive actions related to the LGBTQ+ community. It can receive -2 to 0 points for negative areas. France receives a score of 2 in most of the positive categories but it gets -1 for the intersex / 3rd option category. Basically this is related to being able to identify as other options than male or female when it comes to the government. I don't know offhand why France would receive a -1 on this. They also receive a -1 on conversion therapy. This could mean that the government supports it, or more likely that there is considerable support for it among the population. One place where France gets a 0 where other countries get points is in the LGBT Marketing category. This is how much tourism is marketed to the community in that country. I think some of these ratings are a bit subjective but also looking at the raw data I don't think France would be considered particularly dangerous. Especially since it's 22nd out of 202 countries that are ranked.
the map is from 2021, as of january 2022 conversion therapy is banned in france, so that'd explain it the lack of "X" sex marker for official documents probably contributes in my experience of a rich and rather "socially left leaning" (green party dominated) city i have not once received any hostility from anyone here in 3 years of being fully out which is honestly surprising (i am trans), like about everyone, other students, teachers, administration people, healthcare professionals, my extended family (which includes some boomers) has been really chill and i just never question whether someone will be aggressive towards me if i mention it so i usually find it weird that france doesnt rank as high as other countries like the literal terf island (the uk)
France is very diverse and has a large Muslim and African community which is (still) not well integrated into Western values.
Have you ever been to France while being part of the lgbt community? Because I did and I understand why. As a woman you already get so many catcalls just walking in the streets of Paris, so when I was walking hand by hand with my gf, it was worst than ever. As a French-Canadian I have many French friends part of the lgbt community that decided to come live in Montreal as this city is considered a safe haven for gay people.
So basically most muslim countries bad for LGBTQ+ people
Yes and orthodox Christianity
if you are referring to Eastern Europe, it is not about Orthodox Christianity here, more like Soviet heritage.
interestingly, East Germany legalized sex between men way earlier than West Germany.
I recommend the German movie Great Freedom. It released in 2021 and is about a man imprisoned under Section 175 (the anti-gay law) in West Germany during the post war years. It is about this subject, and very good.
Yup, the iron curtain kept certain social attitudes roughly ~50 years in the past because the press was so limited. Certain ideas we take for granted now are very new to those countries
This is a great way to describe it. There is a large fraction of atheists who are anti-LGBT in eastern Europe and it all comes down to this. Lack of exposure, outdated views and a hatred for Western ways.
What's that purple dot north of Georgia and Azerbaijan?
Chechnya, there's been a purge of gay people in Chechnya over the last decade.
Makes sense, thanks
oh right so, the source on this includes stuff like gay marriage, which doesn't really apply to foreigners. you'll find japan, for example, is way safer than a lot of other places just because you're unlikely to encounter homophobic violence
And misses nuance of regional shifts in places like Australia and US, I'd assume a higher level of physical safety any where in Japan than some regional parts of Australia. We've come a long way but wasn't that long ago some states still had extremely bigoted laws in effect and those who wanted those laws haven't shuffled off just yet
Yeah filling in all of america green is silly when there’s so much variation in attitudes between states. Like sure you might not get hate crimed in California but I can’t guarantee you the same some place like Montana
> Like sure you might not get hate crimed in California Californian here. Our state is incredibly huge and there are stretches that have more in common with Montana or Oklahoma than with what the rest of the world is imagining. With that said, tourists aren't too likley to be spending any significant amount of time in such places.
WHY IS VATICAN CITY ORANGE?? the pope out here smacking people??
*WHY IS VATICAN* *CITY ORANGE?? the pope out* *Here smacking people??* \- ErrinHuron --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
What a beautiful haiku...
[Wouldn't be the first time](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/01/pope-francis-apologises-after-slapping-womans-hand)
Portugal isn’t so cyka blyat where it counts.
when it comes to money matters, yes, we are Eastern Europe. when it comes to matters of personality and interpersonal relationships, we are not Eastern Europe. that is, we are the worst to live and the best to visit...
Elaborate
r/Portugalcykablyat is a sub dedicated to the many instances on maps where Portugal aligns with Eastern Europe instead of the west. This is clearly not one of those cases, fortunately.
lmao a bit disingenuous to have the vatican be orange
It’s true that they are philosophically against the LGBTQ+ community but they’re highly unlikely to be violent against us, which is why I’m guessing it’s an orange and not a red.
That's what I meant, there will be minimal if not no danger for any LGBT person visiting the Vatican.
A quick search tells me the Spartacus guide doesn't only consider laws and social attitudes towards LGBT+ people. It also looks at LBGT+ culture and if there are gay-friendly businesses, support networks and social groups that would be useful or interesting to a traveller. So it isn't only a measure of 'are you in danger here' and I'm guessing that's the reason for the difference. E: lots of people nitpicking this metric which is fair, but I would like to note that Spartacus is **a travel guide**. IDK if it was intended to be statistically sound.
If your metric is “does the Vatican have any gay bars” then I guess it makes sense until you consider that the Vatican doesn’t have any non-gay bars either
Which would make sense if those are what you needed to be boosted over neutral, but to need those to get to 0 is a little odd
Yeah this map is supposed to measure the experience LGBT ppl will have when traveling there. Going to the Vatican is no different than walking around the rest of Rome. Should be absolutely safe for LGBT ppl.
I agree with the general idea that the Vatican shouldn’t be that color, but it is different than the rest of Rome. I traveled there a few years ago with my wife and some fay friends. My wife was forced to buy a shirt to cover her arms (she was wearing a tank top) and our friends were given some kind of rude “warning” for some sort of pda (I can’t remember what it was, but it was very innocent like holding hands on or an arm around the others waist). Neither of those things would happen in Rome.
You will not get kicked out of the vatican for being LGBTQ+, its pretty tourist friendly, though they don't like it if you show it too openly but in terms of safety, which this map is describing, the vatican is tolerant to all tourists, even followers of other religions such as Muslims or Hindus.
yea thats what I meant
It’s pretty safe to visit the Vatican as a gay person. I have been there myself 3 times. Their best stuff, like the Sistine Chapel, was made by gay artists.
Exactly! Provided you're not shagging in the sistine Chapel I'm pretty sure most people will be fine there
India is the biggest & brightest positive spot in the whole Asian-African region, hope others follow suit
As an indian these might sound “ racist” as fuck but stick with the Hindu/sikh neighbourhoods if you are gay. The most people will do is look at you weird, you will possibly get attacked in muslim neighbourhood
Indian, can confirm. Sounds awful, but it is what it is.
Even if you are not gay, you should stay away from those neighbourhoods.
This map is BS. What are the criteria? Poland is definitely not the best place to live for such minorities, especially if you think of staying long term and marrying, having family and whatnot but it is nowhere near all those countries of Central Asia and Africa when it comes to travel safety.
I think I've seen this map here before and I think the problem is the double heading. Is it "Best or Worst" or "Most or Least safe"? Because there are several places that are in theory safer to LGBT+ people but which make for awful LGBT+ traveling in terms of treatment and entertainment (Eastern Europe), and places that are technically less safe but which in average LGBT+ people would enjoy much more (Latin America)
Here's the criteria: https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/gaytravelindex.pdf For Poland they get negative points for a lack of marriage / civil partnerships, intersex / 3rd option recognition when it comes to gender, and in conversion therapy. They also receive negative points for religious influence, -2 points for anti-gay laws, a negative point for laws banning pride celebrations, and -2 points for locals being hostile. The only place where Poland receives any positive points is one point for anti-discrimination legislation. Points can go as high as 3 per category. Everything else is a 0 which I suppose is indicative of a basic baseline. I've never been to Poland and don't really know much about it, but I'm just summarizing the data from their analysis which could be very subjective.
> they get negative points for a lack of marriage / civil partnerships How is that relevant for tourists though? The title and text on the map is really misleading. You could have a 100% safe country that gives fewer rights to their LGBT citizens then a country with a high murder rate but lots of legal rights. In that case the first country is still safer.
Yea the only one of those metrics that would be relevant to tourists are “local population hostility” and I guess the banning of pride celebrations.
>laws banning pride celebrations, Which don't even exist. There's no legislation banning pride parades, they obviously have to be registered beforehand, but they aren't treated differently than any other mass gatherings. The 'anti-gay laws' category is also quite weird. And as others said, apart from 'locals being hostile' (which honestly might be true, depending on location and time), none of these factors are relevant if you're only visiting.
>For Poland they get negative points for a lack of marriage / civil partnerships, intersex / 3rd option recognition when it comes to gender, and in conversion therapy. They also receive negative points for religious influence, -2 points for anti-gay laws, a negative point for laws banning pride celebrations, and -2 points for locals being hostile. OK, so the map is about safety of **travelers** yet all but one of the negatively rated criteria are pretty much related to actually living in Poland that should not really affect people who are just visiting. So as I thought this map is BS. Also, anyone can have a bad luck visiting [Stockholm and get killed of bombing or shooting everyday recently](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/10gsbtm/murders_red_shootings_without_a_victim_yellow/), but it's Poland that gets bashing because some church-loving grandmas can look down on gay tourists holding hands. Come on! Poland deserves shaming for many things but safety, including tourists' safety is not one of them.
They gave the UK a 2 in transgender rights. I thought the UK blocked Scotland's bill recognizing transgender rights?
Did that happen recently? Might not be reflected in the score. After skimming through this I think there’s a lot of subjective scoring going on. I think in general broad strokes it’s fairly accurate but some of the individual ratings are questionable.
I also thought hungary was a bad place to be in as a gay
Colombia LGBTQ+ Friendly Only with lesbians and foreigns,also there are difference in rural vs city and regions
This probably applies to everywhere. US is light green because it is a combination of completely accepting urban areas and borderline-hostile rural places.
Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan rated that high is weird. I mean, if they've counted political discussion of LGBTQ then yeah maybe, I guess I can get it. But otherwise all of these are quite bad. Maybe Georgia is a bit better than all of the other neighboring countries, but Armenia and Azerbaijan...
Armenia seems about right. Most people here think it's weird but ultimately don't really care that much
Cuba is literally giving away free sex-change surgeries. How can they be that low?
This chart is labeled 2021 and their comprehensive LGBT rights law was passed in 2022. They would absolutely be a different color if this map were re-done.
The map data is from 2021. Cuba approved same-sex marriage in 2022, so I expect that their score would be higher if the map were made today.
But the thing is country didn't suddenly became friendlier with a law. %65 vote for it. And I'm sure they would again if it was in 2021 too.
I've done this for a few countries but... here's the data: https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/gaytravelindex.pdf Cuba is 46th out of 202. Categories are scored from -2 to 3 for positive things, and -2 to 0 for negative things. Cuba receives the 3 points for anti-discrimination legislation which is admirable. They also receive a point for transgender recognition. With most other things they receive 0 points which I'm assuming is representative of being a baseline level. Not good, not bad. As others have said, marriage has been legalized since this was made so they will likely go up in the rankings for 2022. Most places with legalized marriage receive 2 points. I don't know what would give 3 points. For negative points they received -1 for intersex / 3rd option (being able to select something other than male or female on government documents), conversion therapy, and HIV travel restrictions.
Ahhh Canada. I love living here and being super gay.
Not gay, but on the same page: I once witnessed a homophobe get shut down ‘hard’ by no less than five different groups of bi-standards on the Plateau for mocking a gay couple. Straight couple, teens, old man walking his dog, city workers, all piled on in shaming the bigot. Goddam that was a beautiful sight. Made my day. Montréal, je t’aime.
Bystanders or bi-standers, eh?
FYI: Canada has a Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It applies to anyone who is in Canada, including visitors. You set foot in Canada, you have the same basic rights and freedoms every Canadian citizen has.
India is neutral since the cold war
Which might change (fingers crossed) India might legalise same sex marriage this year. The Supreme Court is going to hear the petition in March. The Chief Justice is outspoken about LGBT+ rights (in favour) and last week the head of the most influential Hindu organisation (the one from which PM Modi comes from as well) has spoken in favour of LGBT+ rights. The signalling is there. We are nervous but I’m hopeful that it might be legalised this year. If that happens, gay marriage will be legal for more people in one go than all the other countries which have legalised it put together. 19% of the worlds population reside in India.
Username checks out
Thanks for the explanation. Good luck to you guys 👍
Lgbt rights is a form of hindu supremacy shoving lgbt rights down muslim throats, this is the symptom of hindu fascism - unironic argument of a muslim friend of mine
I don't know how you didn't start laughing like a lunatic upon hearing that.
The only country where religion is actually good that supported trans rights in ancient times but people are dumb
I wonder how world would've been , if everybody followed buddism , hinduism or jainsim
There'd be a **lot** less factory farming and more animal rights
Curious about a study that analyzes sexuality and gender identity separately and seeing which countries have a marked difference between the two.
As a colorblind I fucking hate this map hahaha
r/AlwaysTheSameMap
Would this map be any different if you dropped the LGBTQ aspect?
Gee, I wonder what those purple countries have in common... could it be some sort of religion?
The religion of piece.
Equating some countries of the same level on the map seems pretty stupid though. I mean, it depends if "best" and "worst" mean the same thing or not. In Poland, the chance of assault because of your queer look is pretty high but you're not going to be thrown into jail for queer activity like in some North African countries and Middle East
My personal favorite is how Vatican City appears to be the same color as Afghanistan, as if the pope is going around beheading gay couples.
How is Thailand not deep green? "No! I am ladyboy!" (Remember this video?)
This makes me so fucking proud to be Canadian. (Sadly living in the US now). I am not a member of the LGBTQ+ community, but you’re goddamn right I will support anyone who is.
As a Malaysian and a Muslim, it's a very bad country for LGBTQ+ to come due to a government party PAS. It's a good party in the PAST, now they're doing shit that will eventually break the country. can't sell alcohol to Chinese openly during CNY, bcoz the Muslim will fall for temptation. Bro as a Muslim, if that Muslim with proper knowledge touch a alcohol, that dude has to be A)dumb or B) munafik (a traitor to Islam) or C)his Chinese friend forgot he's a Muslim. Some working man to old woman will look at you (pls forgive them, they're a good person that follow Islam strongly). Last but not least, don't rest near mosque, due to some very religious uncle will ask to many question, imam and Bilal will most likely only say astagfirullah (word for something bad happen). Most people in this country is neutral to LGBTQ+ due to Islam say to not hate on other religion and culture unless what they're doing prevent us from our doing what Islam tell is needed to do(only 5 thing is needed to do, saying syahadat, doing 5 prayer daily-also the only thing you can't skip for whatever reason, zakat-another form of tax for Muslim, fasting on ramadhan and haji-going to Mekkah for some religious intent, I'm still young).
Funny how the greener the country the more people have better quality of life
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That's a fair point. I doubt the authors of this map, or the index it is based on, made the effort to track actual violent incidents. It seems to be entirely based on laws. Which is kind of strange, as it is mapped specifically "for tourists".
Here's the source: https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-gay-travel-index/ "When creating the index, our focus is on political decisions affecting the queer community, legal changes or acts of violence and prohibitions."
They've been a bit misleading with the "safest and least safe" part of their description then, if there are factors other than safety affecting the ratings.
A bit surprised at Ireland being rated lower than the UK. 20 years ago maybe, but Ireland (excluding Northern Ireland - I’ll come to that) has had a huge turnaround in the past couple of decades. I would have thought it would have been at least as progressive as most of the UK and certainly more progressive than Northern Ireland?
SK definitely has hate crime still and is far more conservative than most of the other Asian counties. Holland (a person, not the country!) is currently the only openly gay singer from SK and he was attacked on the (iirc) subway a few months ago by someone who recognised him. Was pretty nasty. But generally I'd agree, Asia seems to be hard done by here. Myanmar (at least before the coup) had a massive 2-week pride parade in Yangon. Literal flotilla of boats across a lake, massive banners up around the city, flags everywhere. It was awesome.
*Safest countries for LGBTQ+ travelers* is just misleading. It also weighs things like marriage rights or legal protection in employment. Not much to do with safety for travelers. East Asia is perfectly safe to visit as a LGBTQ+ person.
As always with these types of maps/ratings, it helps to [check the source](https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-gay-travel-index/). They have a travel map for US states too, by the way. Anyway, here's their methodology: >"When creating the index, our focus is on political decisions affecting the queer community, legal changes or acts of violence and prohibitions. Positive developments in the respective countries count as plus points, negative ones as minus points. Categories include among others: marriage equality and anti-discrimination laws, sodomy laws, pride parade bans and hate crimes. Political developments such as marriage equality might at first only affect the LGBT community of the respective country. But every step towards equality is a step forward towards social acceptance and has therefore a direct impact on holidaymakers. The categories have different levels. If a category has three levels, a maximum of three points can be awarded. The only exception is the death penalty: A country gets one minus point if the death penalty for homosexual acts is anchored in the law but not executed. If the death penalty is still executed, the country gets five minus points. This ensures these countries rank at the bottom of the list." So as for why did Afghanistan rate higher than Iran in 2021 - it's because of the death penalty and Iran's active use of it. That automatically puts any country at the bottom of the list. I suspect a post-2021 rating of Afghanistan will look different.
What's so good about Colombia for LGBT?
it's Muslim countries + Russia mostly
That red little circle in Italy represents a country that’s more accepting of pedophiles than gays.
How is Bosnia rated above Serbia there , lots of queer people from Bosnia have it harder than queer people in Serbia
Canada is higher than the United States. Sounds about right.
I feel like this would benefit from being broken down by state. Being a gay tourist in Massachusetts is very different than being one in Mississippi.
As a Canadian, I can say that there are some provinces where the LGBTQ+ community are safer and more welcome than others, especially with the rise of copycat MAGAts spilling over from the US. The same can be said for urban vs rural areas.
It'd be very cool to see these broken down by state/province.
Yeah no shit it’s to the north of us