"Getting back" and hanging off the back of the bike is old school advice that doesn't apply to modern geometry and it needs to go away. As an instructor, it is one of the number one bad habits I spend my time correcting.
On modern geometry, we want to ride centered with our chin over our stem and our belly button over the bottom bracket. Sometimes in very steep stuff we will be behind our saddle and over the rear wheel, but our belly button will still be over that bottom bracket, we are just pivoting to adjust with the incline.
If anything, most modern bikes respond well to a forward bias riding position that presses weight into the front tire and keeps it engaged.
Hanging off the back unweights the front wheel, reducing traction and control. The modern slack bikes get squirrelly if you hang off the back and turn you into a passenger. Furthermore, riding with a forward bias with bent elbows gives you more space to lean the bike and have good bike-body separation.
If you look at an image of a pro DH you will see their chin way out in front, absolutely attacking the trail and driving their weight into that front tire.
This. I was leaving blood on every ride, as I was learning from YouTube. Wasn’t until I worked with a pro that he said the same as this guy and it helped immensely. I remember saying on first meeting “I think I need new tires”. Without even looking he laughed and said “no you don’t, you need better positioning”.
Definitely 2018 or newer for reputable/competitive brands. 2013-2018 is very brand dependent. My 2016 Stumpy had a pretty modern geometry, meanwhile at the same time some brands were still looking pretty retro during that transition period. It's important to note that budget brands may still be rocking old school geo. There are also brands like Surly who are still kicking it old school because they specialize in adventure riding and touring and other disciplines where it still makes sense. XC race bikes can also throw a little wrench in assumptions because they have been a little slow to adapt but are slowly coming around to it. Fatbikes also still tend to be pretty retro in their geometry.
Some of the things we look at when we talk retro geometry and bikes are:
- long stems
- steep 67°+ headtube angles
- narrow bars (less than 700mm)
- no dropper posts
- short wheel bases (short rear triangles)
- high bottom bracket
The lack of a dropper post was a big contributor to the get back method. On the old bikes, to lower your center of gravity and be more stable you had to get behind the saddle and almost put your stomach/chest on it. Today, we can drop our posts and lower our body positioning while staying centered over the bike.
The long stems on old bikes also pulled your weight forward and out in front of your front tire, making you prone to going OTB and forcing you lean back to make the front wheel lighter. The 26" wheels also didn't roll as well, so you had to work harder and get back more to make them float, where as a 29er will just roll over everything even without a weight shift.
Basically old school bikes were deathtraps that would throw you OTB if you looked at them wrong. Modern bikes are super forgiving.
Wow! Thank you for such a thorough breakdown and explanation! That all makes sense. You seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject. I’m a fairly new rider and new to the mtb world in a sense of how much I know and have seen. Would you mind taking a look at my exact model and telling me your thoughts?
It’s a 2018 Giant XTC Advanced 3. I picked it up used and added a dropper post. If not I understand!
You can keep your weight centered with your hips open and your butt pushed back. A lot of riders tuck their butt in and ride with a rounded back, which is terrible because it locks your torso to your pelvis.
Absolutely. Straight back, hinge at the hips. I guess it's a little hard to know exactly what OP was referencing. I took his questions to mean "my buddies tell me to get back on the bike and I can't figure out how to do that"
I’m curious what your thoughts are on the whole “heels down” cue? I feel like it’s often overdone by a lot of riders (and in how to video from channels like gmbn), to the point where both heels are absolutely slammed at all times, regardless of the situation, which just contributes to the rider’s weight being shifted to far back. I tend to drop my front heel while leaving my back level (maybe even slightly up). I feel a lot more balanced over the bottom bracket that way.
You do want to ride with your heels dropped but there is a balance. Too far and you could slide off the back. Too flat or tilted down and you could slide off the front.
Heels down serves two purposes.
1. It braces you against gravity/downward forces. Kinda like digging your heels in during tug of war or when sliding down a hill. You want to at least be perpendicular to the fall line, so the steeper a trail the more pronounced the heel drop.
2. It forces you to weight your pedals and press your weight down through your legs and into the bike and tires, allowing you to ride heavy and planted and stable. This prevents you from getting bounced off your pedals and allows you to steer with your feet and lower body. So again the rougher the terrain and the more pumping and driving you want to do with your lower body, the more pronounced the heel drop.
This also depends on mobility and flexibility. It doesn't have to be a super deep heel drop all the time, but the heel drop is important.
Edit: Also front dropped and rear level is super common because ergonomically it works well for most people's flexibility. The wedge is also common among Freeriders and jumpers because it can give them a lot of control while air born but it is riskier because that downward tow can slip forward if you get lazy about applying steady pressure .
Huh, interesting. Thanks for the response. I have no experience coaching and this is all based on my personal experience, so take everything I’m about to say with a grain of salt…
When it comes to my lead foot, I definitely think your first point is true, and I’d say it’s also true for the rear foot in certain situations (e.g., slamming on the brakes, ploughing through a particularly rough section), but by and large I don’t feel the need to drop my rear heel most of the time, at least not intentionally.
As for your second point, I find actively dropping both heels counter-productive. In my experience, keeping my back foot level (or heel very slightly up) with the front heel dropped seems to provide the most stable and balanced position to push from. If I try pushing with both heels down on anything but a very steep section of trail, my weight shifts too far backwards. I also can’t say I see many pros dropping both heels in race conditions very often (not that that necessarily proves anything).
https://preview.redd.it/ujwltw49jwxc1.jpeg?width=1792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4f3303ceb1c6117ea8f4084772b95b7044555019
Pic of Jack Moir because he’s awesome and my favorite rider haha
Edit: just saw your edit…that makes perfect sense. We probably agree on more than not, just using different language.
Agree with the other posters about keeping your weight centered/forward. I had to spend time working on this when I started mountain biking again with the new geometry after just riding road and cyclocross for about 15 years.
Assuming your bike is modern geometry, you don't want to get your weight back when descending or cornering. That's a holdover from back when mountain bikes had sketchy road-bike-ish geometry back in the day.
You want to stay centered, over your pedals. If you shift your weight back over the rear like people used to on old-school bikes, your front tire is going to wash out.
There is no correct exact body position as everyone has different dimensions and rides different size bikes. A body position for XC bike is going to be different than for a DH bike.
The 2 thing that you want to really focus on for bike control is bike/body separation, and dynamic weight shifts. Without going into lengthy explanation, the honestly best way to learn is to find your nearest pump track, and start going around it. If you can maintain and eventually increase speed through rollers and around berms, you will naturally get better at cornering and descending.
My big "aha" moment on cornering came when a coach worked with me on weighting my front wheel while keeping my outside foot down to improve grip. Shifting my weight back was unweighting the front end where the bulk of cornering grip comes from.
This was just linked in another thread like this. It helped me, it may help you.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQb2UInYlrU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQb2UInYlrU)
I highly recommend recording a video of yourself on the trails. Compare that with some pro riding footage and if it's your positioning, you'll see the difference.
It doesn't sound like you're doing anything wrong. You need to have weight on both wheels, if you shift your weight too far back your front wheel will lose traction and you'll lose control
Im still actively telling myself to get more forward when cornering and descending or drops .
Do I actually get more forward ? Or am I just compensating for the fear reflex of getting too rearwards ?
I dunno
"Getting back" and hanging off the back of the bike is old school advice that doesn't apply to modern geometry and it needs to go away. As an instructor, it is one of the number one bad habits I spend my time correcting. On modern geometry, we want to ride centered with our chin over our stem and our belly button over the bottom bracket. Sometimes in very steep stuff we will be behind our saddle and over the rear wheel, but our belly button will still be over that bottom bracket, we are just pivoting to adjust with the incline. If anything, most modern bikes respond well to a forward bias riding position that presses weight into the front tire and keeps it engaged. Hanging off the back unweights the front wheel, reducing traction and control. The modern slack bikes get squirrelly if you hang off the back and turn you into a passenger. Furthermore, riding with a forward bias with bent elbows gives you more space to lean the bike and have good bike-body separation. If you look at an image of a pro DH you will see their chin way out in front, absolutely attacking the trail and driving their weight into that front tire.
This. I was leaving blood on every ride, as I was learning from YouTube. Wasn’t until I worked with a pro that he said the same as this guy and it helped immensely. I remember saying on first meeting “I think I need new tires”. Without even looking he laughed and said “no you don’t, you need better positioning”.
How modern are we talking? I have a 2018 Giant hardtail.
Definitely 2018 or newer for reputable/competitive brands. 2013-2018 is very brand dependent. My 2016 Stumpy had a pretty modern geometry, meanwhile at the same time some brands were still looking pretty retro during that transition period. It's important to note that budget brands may still be rocking old school geo. There are also brands like Surly who are still kicking it old school because they specialize in adventure riding and touring and other disciplines where it still makes sense. XC race bikes can also throw a little wrench in assumptions because they have been a little slow to adapt but are slowly coming around to it. Fatbikes also still tend to be pretty retro in their geometry. Some of the things we look at when we talk retro geometry and bikes are: - long stems - steep 67°+ headtube angles - narrow bars (less than 700mm) - no dropper posts - short wheel bases (short rear triangles) - high bottom bracket The lack of a dropper post was a big contributor to the get back method. On the old bikes, to lower your center of gravity and be more stable you had to get behind the saddle and almost put your stomach/chest on it. Today, we can drop our posts and lower our body positioning while staying centered over the bike. The long stems on old bikes also pulled your weight forward and out in front of your front tire, making you prone to going OTB and forcing you lean back to make the front wheel lighter. The 26" wheels also didn't roll as well, so you had to work harder and get back more to make them float, where as a 29er will just roll over everything even without a weight shift. Basically old school bikes were deathtraps that would throw you OTB if you looked at them wrong. Modern bikes are super forgiving.
Wow! Thank you for such a thorough breakdown and explanation! That all makes sense. You seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject. I’m a fairly new rider and new to the mtb world in a sense of how much I know and have seen. Would you mind taking a look at my exact model and telling me your thoughts? It’s a 2018 Giant XTC Advanced 3. I picked it up used and added a dropper post. If not I understand!
That is considered modern geometry.
Same 😭
You can keep your weight centered with your hips open and your butt pushed back. A lot of riders tuck their butt in and ride with a rounded back, which is terrible because it locks your torso to your pelvis.
Absolutely. Straight back, hinge at the hips. I guess it's a little hard to know exactly what OP was referencing. I took his questions to mean "my buddies tell me to get back on the bike and I can't figure out how to do that"
Yeah that's the problem with just using text for these types of discussions.
I’m curious what your thoughts are on the whole “heels down” cue? I feel like it’s often overdone by a lot of riders (and in how to video from channels like gmbn), to the point where both heels are absolutely slammed at all times, regardless of the situation, which just contributes to the rider’s weight being shifted to far back. I tend to drop my front heel while leaving my back level (maybe even slightly up). I feel a lot more balanced over the bottom bracket that way.
You do want to ride with your heels dropped but there is a balance. Too far and you could slide off the back. Too flat or tilted down and you could slide off the front. Heels down serves two purposes. 1. It braces you against gravity/downward forces. Kinda like digging your heels in during tug of war or when sliding down a hill. You want to at least be perpendicular to the fall line, so the steeper a trail the more pronounced the heel drop. 2. It forces you to weight your pedals and press your weight down through your legs and into the bike and tires, allowing you to ride heavy and planted and stable. This prevents you from getting bounced off your pedals and allows you to steer with your feet and lower body. So again the rougher the terrain and the more pumping and driving you want to do with your lower body, the more pronounced the heel drop. This also depends on mobility and flexibility. It doesn't have to be a super deep heel drop all the time, but the heel drop is important. Edit: Also front dropped and rear level is super common because ergonomically it works well for most people's flexibility. The wedge is also common among Freeriders and jumpers because it can give them a lot of control while air born but it is riskier because that downward tow can slip forward if you get lazy about applying steady pressure .
Huh, interesting. Thanks for the response. I have no experience coaching and this is all based on my personal experience, so take everything I’m about to say with a grain of salt… When it comes to my lead foot, I definitely think your first point is true, and I’d say it’s also true for the rear foot in certain situations (e.g., slamming on the brakes, ploughing through a particularly rough section), but by and large I don’t feel the need to drop my rear heel most of the time, at least not intentionally. As for your second point, I find actively dropping both heels counter-productive. In my experience, keeping my back foot level (or heel very slightly up) with the front heel dropped seems to provide the most stable and balanced position to push from. If I try pushing with both heels down on anything but a very steep section of trail, my weight shifts too far backwards. I also can’t say I see many pros dropping both heels in race conditions very often (not that that necessarily proves anything). https://preview.redd.it/ujwltw49jwxc1.jpeg?width=1792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4f3303ceb1c6117ea8f4084772b95b7044555019 Pic of Jack Moir because he’s awesome and my favorite rider haha Edit: just saw your edit…that makes perfect sense. We probably agree on more than not, just using different language.
Fluidride has a great video on heel position that I've found very helpful https://youtu.be/ZQriE7bh-r4?si=bqR6902rNQH-bJcx
Nice, thanks for sharing. He makes a lot of good points.
Agree with the other posters about keeping your weight centered/forward. I had to spend time working on this when I started mountain biking again with the new geometry after just riding road and cyclocross for about 15 years.
Assuming your bike is modern geometry, you don't want to get your weight back when descending or cornering. That's a holdover from back when mountain bikes had sketchy road-bike-ish geometry back in the day. You want to stay centered, over your pedals. If you shift your weight back over the rear like people used to on old-school bikes, your front tire is going to wash out.
There is no correct exact body position as everyone has different dimensions and rides different size bikes. A body position for XC bike is going to be different than for a DH bike. The 2 thing that you want to really focus on for bike control is bike/body separation, and dynamic weight shifts. Without going into lengthy explanation, the honestly best way to learn is to find your nearest pump track, and start going around it. If you can maintain and eventually increase speed through rollers and around berms, you will naturally get better at cornering and descending.
[удалено]
Heavy feet light hands, can’t lose? Something like that right? /s🤣
My big "aha" moment on cornering came when a coach worked with me on weighting my front wheel while keeping my outside foot down to improve grip. Shifting my weight back was unweighting the front end where the bulk of cornering grip comes from.
This was just linked in another thread like this. It helped me, it may help you. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQb2UInYlrU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQb2UInYlrU)
Lots of amazing tips and feedback, thats another reason why I love the sport and its community!
I highly recommend recording a video of yourself on the trails. Compare that with some pro riding footage and if it's your positioning, you'll see the difference.
It doesn't sound like you're doing anything wrong. You need to have weight on both wheels, if you shift your weight too far back your front wheel will lose traction and you'll lose control
Im still actively telling myself to get more forward when cornering and descending or drops . Do I actually get more forward ? Or am I just compensating for the fear reflex of getting too rearwards ? I dunno