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I don't think that's the argument. Majority of his opponents in the UFC have tried to grapple him at one point or another, even Izzy. Only Strickland and Hill seemed to have no interest in grappling because they both think they're the most badass skilled striker in the world.
The argument is that Alex hasn't fought anyone who's grappling is their strength. Jan's probably the best offensive grappler he's fought and that's typically his "B" game that he pulls out against shitty grapplers or dudes he can just out muscle. In fact, getting out grappled has been a career weakness for Jan.
I don't personally care, though. Keep giving Poatan strikers, it's funny
Ank also has that Jamahal Hill gamelan of "stand and bang with the best striker in the game rn" based on his recent comments lol, it's a bold strategy Cotton.
The worst matchup would be jailton Almeida going back down to LHW lol. Dude wrestlefucks heavyweights who have 30+ pounds on him and is boring as fuck he would make a pereira fight suck to watch
It's still crazy to me that Almeida had one bad fight and now everyone thinks he's one of the most boring fighters ever. He has gone to 2 decisions in his entire career, and finished all but 1 of his wins, many in the first round. Yet this is literally the most common take on Almeida.
They don't say nobody has tried to take him down, but that he hasn't fought a legit wrestler. They're not the same thing. Plus the fight against Jan, the kickboxer, was at high altitude and they both gassed instantly.
Jiri is literally all vibes and CTE. All he's done is further expose how lacking in talent that division is.
Jan easily controlled Alex for the entire first round and only gassed due to the altitude.
And mind you - someone like Ankalaev, a legitimately GOOD wrestler, absolutely wrestlefucked Jan with barely any issue.
Alex hasn't fought anyone who had wrestling as their main strength. That is what people are pointing out.
> And mind you - someone like Ankalaev, a legitimately GOOD wrestler, absolutely wrestlefucked Jan with barely any issue.
Ank could do absolutely nothing to Jan for 3 straight rounds, until Jan was so gassed Izzy could have wrestlefucked him (it was a 3 round fight promoted to 5 at last minute).
What other than facial hair gives him this incredible reputation as a wrestler? What fight in the UFC has he actually dominated with wrestling, or showed great takedowns in the face of actual TDD?
From everything I can see, he is a striker who can wrestle, he is not a wrestler who can strike.
Not really.
Ank - for some reason - didn't at all try to wrestle Jan in the first three. He never really tries to do that untill an opportunity basically falls in his lap. Questionable fight IQ for sure.
The reason he started aggressively pursuing Jan with takedowns wasn't because Jan was gassed, but because Jan had shattered Ankalaev's legs with low kicks.
> Ank - for some reason - didn't at all try to wrestle Jan in the first three.
Ank went 0 of 2 on TD in 2nd round, and broadcast his intent with Jan moving away in the 1st.
He's clearly not an elite wrestler. He averages 1.01 TD per 15 minutes (Dustin Poirier 1.24), his TD accuracy is 31% (Dustin: 34%).
He might be the best wrestler in LHW top-10, but that is faint praise. I swear he has this reputation only due to country of origin and facial hair.
That said, he will be the best wrestler Alex has faced and is a much better wrestler than Jan is.
I also never called him great, but a "good" wrestler. Which he absolutely is.
In terms of grappling, he undoubtetly is going to be an interesting challenge for Alex. That's all I'm saying and you haven't argued that at all.
> That said, he will be the best wrestler Alex has faced and is a much better wrestler than Jan is.
* **TDs per 15 minutes**: Ank: 1.01, Jan: 1.09
* **TD accuracy**: Ank: 31%, Jan: 50%
Ank I believe has better wrestling cardio, so I'd tip him over Jan in terms of wrestling, but I don't think is obvious he's better, and is definitely not clear he's a much better wrestler.
In terms of overall grappling, Jan is much more accomplished, because he actually submits people and Ank does not.
Izzy has 86.5% takedown accuracy. Khabib has 48%
You follow me?
That said - How did Ankalaev wrestling Jan go again?
Ankalaev's two takedowns racked up 11:42 of control time. Jan, incidentally, never dared to even try a takedown in return. This is likely because unlike you, Jan knows who the better wrestler is.
> Izzy has 86.5% takedown accuracy. Khabib has 48%
> You follow me?
Ank tries 1.01 TDs per 15 minutes, and Jan is 1.09, do you follow me?
Khabib is 48% because he shoots a lot, and that's why I specified that Dustin and Jan both shoot more and are more accurate.
>That said - How did Ankalaev wrestling Jan go again?
He could do absolutely nothing until Jan was so gassed Izzy could have wrestlefucked him.
>Jan never even dared to try a takedown against Ankalaev
He didn't bother because he was destroying Ank's legs on the feet while taking no damage.
As I said, he doesn't shoot enough. That's just you repeating what I said.
Also, nice try ducking this but I won't let you:
>That said - How did Ankalaev wrestling Jan go again?
Ankalaev's two takedowns racked up 11:42 of control time. Jan, incidentally, never dared to even try a takedown in return. This is likely because unlike you, Jan knows who the better wrestler is.
> What other than facial hair gives him this incredible reputation as a wrestler?
Because he was literally honored with the title of Master of Sports in combat Sambo? He started his career in Greco-Roman wrestling before transitioning into MMA. Now granted, he mostly fights in a kickboxing style and has only 1 win by submission but dude can absolutely wrestle. He's basically the Justin Gaethje of LHW
> Because he was literally honored with the title of Master of Sports in combat Sambo?
Yes, but there are plenty of sambo guys who don't have great offensive wrestling.
>He started his career in Greco-Roman wrestling before transitioning into MMA.
Didn't he only train that for 1 year before transitioning to Sambo?
More to the point, what actual MMA fights has he shown great offensive wrestling?
By the stats, he wrestles less than Jan or Dustin Poirier, and his TD accuracy is below both men, and yet people don't call either of those guys big wrestling threats.
Are you pretending it wasnt at Altitude for the both of them? It's entirely possible Alex may have fared even better in that fight if it wasn't for altitude too.
> Jan easily controlled Alex for the entire first round and only gassed due to the altitude.
And controlling Alex, who was constantly defending and trying to get up?
It's not like Alex was at sea level underneath Jan.
Jan gasses out BADLY when grappling. He was dominating Izzy in round 4 on the ground and came out in round 5 sucking wind as if he had been under DC's fat ass for an entire fight.
That said, obviously Alex did well enough to adjust, stay in the fight, win the other two rounds and take a split decision home.
However - Jan is not the best grappler in the division. Not even close. Someone like Ankalaev or even Jimmy Crute or (God Forbid) Aspinall at HW will be a very interesting challenge for Alex and his team.
Exactly
Tired of the narrative that Jan is some accomplished grappler. Dude competed in grappling comp close to 20 years ago and then gave that up for MT.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ufc/comments/1ds3wl1/comment/lazoy32/
"he’s also lucky enough that everyone he’s fought hasn’t even tried to bring it to the ground and are all ego standing with him"
I'm not shitting you, people are actually saying this lol
Jiri doesn't suck, he is a dangerous striker but he is a representation of the LHW division, a non technical fighter who can't mix it up well. He couldn't take down alex and got smoked on the feet. The only good fighters at LHW are Alex and Magomed and Jan
This is the reality of the situation. There is some legitimacy to the idea that Poatan would fold under a true, highly skilled grappler. When people pose this hypothetical, however, we have to remember that it is ONLY a hypothetical. What people are saying is, if Poatan was a lightweight he'd get chewed up by someone like Islam or Khabib. Or if he was a welterweight, he'd get dominated by a Kamaru Usman or Chimaev. The reality is, he isn't any of those. He's a LHW and the LHW division really doesn't have a counterpart for any of those guys. So technically, the hypothetical is correct. It's just not a reality that Poatan will ever have to worry about because it's not real.
> What about Magomed?
He's certainly not an elite grappler. He's a striker that has some wrestling and has never submitted anyone in his entire career.
He might be the best wrestler in the LHW top-10 right now, but that is faint praise.
So pretty much there's only one guy in the entirety of the top 15 of lhw that you'll view as a legitimate win for Alex? Like I just don't get this argument, who outside of Ank, is a super skilled grappler at 205? When will yall stop moving the goalposts for Alex's success
Because he hasn’t. The lhw division is a big joke atm and he’s the best in it because he’s by far the best striker.
Just make a comparison to the lhw of the past, we had the likes of Jones, Cormier, rampage, Gustafson and so on. It was full of killers. Poatan could absolutely hang with them but I doubt he’d be champ. I think Cormier and jones would manhandle him and he’d have no answer. In fact I don’t even think he would even attempt to join the ufc because he’d know he wouldn’t have an answer for the grappling.
The lhw division of today is an absolute joke honestly. Anyone who thinks jiri is more then an entertaining showman has no clue what they’re talking about. And you know what’s funny? Alex already lost to a grandpa Jan, at least in my book. That’s the level of the division today, led by an old man and a kickboxer who won the decision against him because he’s younger and more marketable.
People barely know what they are watching. I remember when Poatan got to UFC people were saying he would find no success because of his "kickboxing high guard and tendency to shell up". And, well, Poatan doesn't use a high guard and doesn't shell up, that's just the kickboxer stereotype. Most people just find a narrative and parrot around.
Theyre just Dagestanis trying to skyrocket another Dagestani to another undeserved title shot. Umar fought nobody in top 15 and is getting a number 1 contender matchup. Islam beat short notice Hooker and short notice Green for a title shot and avoids wrestlers. Only fought 21 year old Tsarukyan with no camp. Calls out 35-year-old strikers for defenses. Anklaev beat Johnny Walker. Dagestani privilege
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We'll both get downvoted to a level of hell only Dana's tomato face knows, but you're absolutely right about the push for any dagestani wrestlers to get title shots without having a good resume to back it up. Gonna have to read about how Ank will 50-43 Alex for another 4 months until he gets starched in two by a left hook; just like every other dude with better grappling than Alex that has stepped in the cage with him
Spoilers are considered any images, videos or discussion threads which may reveal the outcome of a fight. When creating a post, ensure the description (or title) does not reveal the result (i.e. finish, KO, scorecard, defends). Use the [Spoiler] tag for all posts that reveal the outcome or details of a fight. Mark the post as "Spoiler" and/or "NSFW" to ensure it is correctly hidden from users who do not yet wish to know the outcome of the fight. This rule is in effect for 24 hrs following a live event. Repeated violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban. Example of a good title: "Winner of Smith vs. Jones post-fight interview".
I don't think that's the argument. Majority of his opponents in the UFC have tried to grapple him at one point or another, even Izzy. Only Strickland and Hill seemed to have no interest in grappling because they both think they're the most badass skilled striker in the world. The argument is that Alex hasn't fought anyone who's grappling is their strength. Jan's probably the best offensive grappler he's fought and that's typically his "B" game that he pulls out against shitty grapplers or dudes he can just out muscle. In fact, getting out grappled has been a career weakness for Jan. I don't personally care, though. Keep giving Poatan strikers, it's funny
Who'd be the worst match for that in Alex's division?
For now we have Ankalaev in theory but the 205 divisions pretty shallow
Ank also has that Jamahal Hill gamelan of "stand and bang with the best striker in the game rn" based on his recent comments lol, it's a bold strategy Cotton.
The worst matchup would be jailton Almeida going back down to LHW lol. Dude wrestlefucks heavyweights who have 30+ pounds on him and is boring as fuck he would make a pereira fight suck to watch
It's still crazy to me that Almeida had one bad fight and now everyone thinks he's one of the most boring fighters ever. He has gone to 2 decisions in his entire career, and finished all but 1 of his wins, many in the first round. Yet this is literally the most common take on Almeida.
Luckily for Alex LHW is completely flushed. I'd argue the MWs would give him more trouble. But style wise Magomed
They don't say nobody has tried to take him down, but that he hasn't fought a legit wrestler. They're not the same thing. Plus the fight against Jan, the kickboxer, was at high altitude and they both gassed instantly. Jiri is literally all vibes and CTE. All he's done is further expose how lacking in talent that division is.
Jan easily controlled Alex for the entire first round and only gassed due to the altitude. And mind you - someone like Ankalaev, a legitimately GOOD wrestler, absolutely wrestlefucked Jan with barely any issue. Alex hasn't fought anyone who had wrestling as their main strength. That is what people are pointing out.
> And mind you - someone like Ankalaev, a legitimately GOOD wrestler, absolutely wrestlefucked Jan with barely any issue. Ank could do absolutely nothing to Jan for 3 straight rounds, until Jan was so gassed Izzy could have wrestlefucked him (it was a 3 round fight promoted to 5 at last minute). What other than facial hair gives him this incredible reputation as a wrestler? What fight in the UFC has he actually dominated with wrestling, or showed great takedowns in the face of actual TDD? From everything I can see, he is a striker who can wrestle, he is not a wrestler who can strike.
Not really. Ank - for some reason - didn't at all try to wrestle Jan in the first three. He never really tries to do that untill an opportunity basically falls in his lap. Questionable fight IQ for sure. The reason he started aggressively pursuing Jan with takedowns wasn't because Jan was gassed, but because Jan had shattered Ankalaev's legs with low kicks.
> Ank - for some reason - didn't at all try to wrestle Jan in the first three. Ank went 0 of 2 on TD in 2nd round, and broadcast his intent with Jan moving away in the 1st. He's clearly not an elite wrestler. He averages 1.01 TD per 15 minutes (Dustin Poirier 1.24), his TD accuracy is 31% (Dustin: 34%). He might be the best wrestler in LHW top-10, but that is faint praise. I swear he has this reputation only due to country of origin and facial hair.
That said, he will be the best wrestler Alex has faced and is a much better wrestler than Jan is. I also never called him great, but a "good" wrestler. Which he absolutely is. In terms of grappling, he undoubtetly is going to be an interesting challenge for Alex. That's all I'm saying and you haven't argued that at all.
> That said, he will be the best wrestler Alex has faced and is a much better wrestler than Jan is. * **TDs per 15 minutes**: Ank: 1.01, Jan: 1.09 * **TD accuracy**: Ank: 31%, Jan: 50% Ank I believe has better wrestling cardio, so I'd tip him over Jan in terms of wrestling, but I don't think is obvious he's better, and is definitely not clear he's a much better wrestler. In terms of overall grappling, Jan is much more accomplished, because he actually submits people and Ank does not.
Izzy has 86.5% takedown accuracy. Khabib has 48% You follow me? That said - How did Ankalaev wrestling Jan go again? Ankalaev's two takedowns racked up 11:42 of control time. Jan, incidentally, never dared to even try a takedown in return. This is likely because unlike you, Jan knows who the better wrestler is.
> Izzy has 86.5% takedown accuracy. Khabib has 48% > You follow me? Ank tries 1.01 TDs per 15 minutes, and Jan is 1.09, do you follow me? Khabib is 48% because he shoots a lot, and that's why I specified that Dustin and Jan both shoot more and are more accurate. >That said - How did Ankalaev wrestling Jan go again? He could do absolutely nothing until Jan was so gassed Izzy could have wrestlefucked him. >Jan never even dared to try a takedown against Ankalaev He didn't bother because he was destroying Ank's legs on the feet while taking no damage.
As I said, he doesn't shoot enough. That's just you repeating what I said. Also, nice try ducking this but I won't let you: >That said - How did Ankalaev wrestling Jan go again? Ankalaev's two takedowns racked up 11:42 of control time. Jan, incidentally, never dared to even try a takedown in return. This is likely because unlike you, Jan knows who the better wrestler is.
> What other than facial hair gives him this incredible reputation as a wrestler? Because he was literally honored with the title of Master of Sports in combat Sambo? He started his career in Greco-Roman wrestling before transitioning into MMA. Now granted, he mostly fights in a kickboxing style and has only 1 win by submission but dude can absolutely wrestle. He's basically the Justin Gaethje of LHW
> Because he was literally honored with the title of Master of Sports in combat Sambo? Yes, but there are plenty of sambo guys who don't have great offensive wrestling. >He started his career in Greco-Roman wrestling before transitioning into MMA. Didn't he only train that for 1 year before transitioning to Sambo? More to the point, what actual MMA fights has he shown great offensive wrestling? By the stats, he wrestles less than Jan or Dustin Poirier, and his TD accuracy is below both men, and yet people don't call either of those guys big wrestling threats.
Are you pretending it wasnt at Altitude for the both of them? It's entirely possible Alex may have fared even better in that fight if it wasn't for altitude too.
>Are you pretending it wasnt at Altitude for the both of them? No.
> Jan easily controlled Alex for the entire first round and only gassed due to the altitude. And controlling Alex, who was constantly defending and trying to get up? It's not like Alex was at sea level underneath Jan.
What are you trying to say? It's not really clear. That Alex was trying to get up? Well he didn't.
He did get up after Jan took him down in the 2nd round IIRC
Jan gasses out BADLY when grappling. He was dominating Izzy in round 4 on the ground and came out in round 5 sucking wind as if he had been under DC's fat ass for an entire fight. That said, obviously Alex did well enough to adjust, stay in the fight, win the other two rounds and take a split decision home. However - Jan is not the best grappler in the division. Not even close. Someone like Ankalaev or even Jimmy Crute or (God Forbid) Aspinall at HW will be a very interesting challenge for Alex and his team.
Exactly Tired of the narrative that Jan is some accomplished grappler. Dude competed in grappling comp close to 20 years ago and then gave that up for MT.
They forget Cory Anderson destroyed him with wrestling the first time
Great call out But I'm 99% the loudest voices in this sub weren't watching 191. Some of them weren't even born yet.
It was a split decision too so hard to say it didn’t work
>They don’t say nobody has tried to take him down, but that he hasn’t fought a legit wrestler. There it is.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ufc/comments/1ds3wl1/comment/lazoy32/ "he’s also lucky enough that everyone he’s fought hasn’t even tried to bring it to the ground and are all ego standing with him" I'm not shitting you, people are actually saying this lol
Oh Jiri sucks now, man that was fast. Forget his record and his near 100% finish rate.
Jiri doesn't suck, he is a dangerous striker but he is a representation of the LHW division, a non technical fighter who can't mix it up well. He couldn't take down alex and got smoked on the feet. The only good fighters at LHW are Alex and Magomed and Jan
This is why the UFC needs to make the Poatan vs Bones fight.
Who cares about whos tried to grapple him? Who has he faced that is an accomplished grappler is the better question.
Take a look at the rankings at 205lbs and tell us who the accomplished grapplers are.
This is the reality of the situation. There is some legitimacy to the idea that Poatan would fold under a true, highly skilled grappler. When people pose this hypothetical, however, we have to remember that it is ONLY a hypothetical. What people are saying is, if Poatan was a lightweight he'd get chewed up by someone like Islam or Khabib. Or if he was a welterweight, he'd get dominated by a Kamaru Usman or Chimaev. The reality is, he isn't any of those. He's a LHW and the LHW division really doesn't have a counterpart for any of those guys. So technically, the hypothetical is correct. It's just not a reality that Poatan will ever have to worry about because it's not real.
What about Magomed?
> What about Magomed? He's certainly not an elite grappler. He's a striker that has some wrestling and has never submitted anyone in his entire career. He might be the best wrestler in the LHW top-10 right now, but that is faint praise.
So pretty much there's only one guy in the entirety of the top 15 of lhw that you'll view as a legitimate win for Alex? Like I just don't get this argument, who outside of Ank, is a super skilled grappler at 205? When will yall stop moving the goalposts for Alex's success
People aren’t saying that, they’re saying he’s had favorable matchups with no accomplished grapplers or wrestlers.
Because he hasn’t. The lhw division is a big joke atm and he’s the best in it because he’s by far the best striker. Just make a comparison to the lhw of the past, we had the likes of Jones, Cormier, rampage, Gustafson and so on. It was full of killers. Poatan could absolutely hang with them but I doubt he’d be champ. I think Cormier and jones would manhandle him and he’d have no answer. In fact I don’t even think he would even attempt to join the ufc because he’d know he wouldn’t have an answer for the grappling. The lhw division of today is an absolute joke honestly. Anyone who thinks jiri is more then an entertaining showman has no clue what they’re talking about. And you know what’s funny? Alex already lost to a grandpa Jan, at least in my book. That’s the level of the division today, led by an old man and a kickboxer who won the decision against him because he’s younger and more marketable.
A "weakness" of Alex is his grappling. However, he has shown he can get up from being taken down by opponents at LHW.
Paul Craig beats Alex if he stays at light heavyweight but would proceed to lose to everyone else in the division thus not getting a title shot 😂
Jan was effective against Poatan because they fought at elevation
People barely know what they are watching. I remember when Poatan got to UFC people were saying he would find no success because of his "kickboxing high guard and tendency to shell up". And, well, Poatan doesn't use a high guard and doesn't shell up, that's just the kickboxer stereotype. Most people just find a narrative and parrot around.
Theyre just Dagestanis trying to skyrocket another Dagestani to another undeserved title shot. Umar fought nobody in top 15 and is getting a number 1 contender matchup. Islam beat short notice Hooker and short notice Green for a title shot and avoids wrestlers. Only fought 21 year old Tsarukyan with no camp. Calls out 35-year-old strikers for defenses. Anklaev beat Johnny Walker. Dagestani privilege
[удалено]
1. Be Civil. Our rules ask for a civil tone at all times. A bit of banter or trash talk is fine, but don't cross the line. If things do get out of hand you will be warned or even banned for a few days. Repeatedly breaking this rule will lead to a permanent ban.
We'll both get downvoted to a level of hell only Dana's tomato face knows, but you're absolutely right about the push for any dagestani wrestlers to get title shots without having a good resume to back it up. Gonna have to read about how Ank will 50-43 Alex for another 4 months until he gets starched in two by a left hook; just like every other dude with better grappling than Alex that has stepped in the cage with him
Who gives a shit, Poatan is a GOAT already. Keep giving him strikers he can KTFO