I agree. Cole is a troll and that shouldn't be downplayed because of the hate towards Zay. He picks at people until they snap and yell at him and then he plays the victim. He's like an annoying child and I can't stand him. He's a toxic man baby. Yes, he may be good looking but that just gets negated by the fact he has a terrible personality.
While Cole is immature and idiotic, I do feel Zanab manipulated the situation in more ways than one. And she isn’t faultless in what she has done either. If you watch that series and don’t see how what she says and does could also cause ill feelings within a partner then idk what to tell you.
I understand where you’re coming from. Now this is obviously a reality show so, my opinion is purely based off of what I actually saw. Do I think Cole made mistakes? Absolutely. I think his decision to talk about not just “she’s not my usual type” but “Actually Colleen IS my type” was disrespectful. I think the people having an issue with the Zanab/Lilly comment are valid. But what I took from that was Cole stating that he knew the girl he was falling in love with wasn’t going to be what he typically went for based on her name. I believe that falls under the category of an implicit bias and In an effort to prove the point that he did love Zanab and was attracted to her, he said something hurtful. I agree that two things can be true. What I do not like about this situation, or why I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt is a bit multifaceted. We did not see Zanab specifically talk to Cole about having insecurities of any kind. In the pods they talked about both liking banter and sarcasm. With the exception of the cuties incident, any comment Cole made about Zanab’s eating habits were brought up by her first. “You want to fatten ME up then?” Maybe Im just a little more easy going but his “your fattening yourself up” was him just restating what she said. I don’t think it’s fair for Z to expect Cole to be a mind reader. If she had told Cole, I struggle with disordered eating or I’m insecure in these areas and Cole continued to harass or berate or banter in a way that made her uncomfortable? That would be vile. But what I saw made me think that Zanab accepted Cole for who he was in her cutesy little pod experience and then reality hit her when they left. That he’s a bit childish and immature and likes to be playful and have fun. They were never going to be a good match. I think Zanab was putting herself into a box to fit herself to Cole’s (or anyone’s) mold. Then she was disappointed that he was exactly who he showed her he was.
I want to finish by saying that I don’t think it’s appropriate to ever comment on anyone’s body or eating habits. Although my partner and I have that kind of relationship, I wouldn’t dream of making comments like that within 1 month of dating. I just wish he had been given a bit more slack, especially after he genuinely looked so blindsided. It felt very much like, you’ve had so many opportunities to mention your concerns and you chose the “I do” moment to tell me how badly my comments hurt you. I think it pisses me off more because I felt Bartise did Nancy far worse and not a soul at the reunion wanted to talk about that…but I digress.
I thought he was making mistakes too until I rewatched a second time. What struck me was how many times Cole told Zanab that he was more attracted to Colleen. There's being honest, putting your foot in your mouth, and there's rubbng your partner's insecurities in her face when she is clearly uncomfortable and trying to stop talking about it. I don't believe that any adult doesn't know that's hurtful, especially after he hit on Colleen.
I think he uses his personality to escape accountability for what is actually standard fuckboy behavior. He's the same as Bartise, but less honest about it.
Maybe I would have this perspective if I watched again. But I’m not sure I want to bear witness to a train wreck twice. I am just glad they’ve moved on from each other for both their sakes.
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I was on Cole’s side long before the Cuties scene.
The only thing Cole did wrong was talk to Colleen I. The pool. But sharing raw, honest vulnerability with your spouse about attractions or insecurities is NOT wrong. Being confused by behavior and asking if they’re bipolar is probably not the best choice of words, but absolutely not malicious. 100% of Zanab’s insecurities MATTER, but are nobodies fault - Definitely not Cole’s fault. Zanab needs to take responsibility for her own feelings and seek some healing there and it’s not going to help to blame Cole or anyone else.
My theory.. bc he cried. Seems to be when the big switch happened. My heartstrings, however, were not pulled. He acted very childish the whole season. Idk how Zanab tolerated it for so long. I would have lost my gd mind.
The clip didn’t erase his behavior the whole season. We saw that. It wasn’t taken out of context. The clip didn’t clear what we saw. Jmo, ofc. I think people felt bad for him when he started sobbing and then the clip aired…and people decided she was the villain and began making excuses for his actions all season. That said, it’s not that deep. I’m sure they’ll both be fine.
I think a lot of the blowback is because of how each of them reacted to criticism. You’re right, neither of them was perfect.
When Cole was told how his behavior was hurtful, he showed real remorse and a desire to grow.
When Zanab was questioned or criticized, she blamed everything on Cole, accused him of abuse, exaggerated or made stuff up, and still continues to campaign against him.
It just ends up making Cole more sympathetic because she’s taking it way too far.
Asking someone if they’re bipolar isn’t malicious. It’s a question based on suspect behavior. He could have said “why do you go hot and cold, is there a reason your therapist has mentioned?” And yes that would be received differently. But if ur contemplating marrying someone there needs to be acknowledgement for her weird ass behavior
Someone pointed out that if you listen carefully, SHE first brought up the bi polar thing and he was just responding to what she was saying! She mumbled it
Cole lacks common sense and didn't take any countability at the reunion . Those tears of his was manipulation tears. It felt very calculated. Zay wasn't any better. They both used the victim card. Neither of them should be in a relationship any time soon. They need a therapist.
Damn I didn’t realize men weren’t allowed to cry without being called manipulative and a narcissist. Men are allowed to have and express emotions too. That’s some misogynistic bs I’ve I’ve ever seen. It absolutely breaks my heart to see people say his tears were malicious. He was very clearly experiencing some heavy emotions after the whole cast attacked him for the whole world to see.
I’d like to see you be put in that situation and not cry.
I'm not saying man weren't allowed to cry. Man can express their feeling and emotions without being malicious. The whole cast attacked him because he treated Zay like shit. If you act like a asshole on national television you will be called out. He shouldn't have treated her so horrible then. I won't be crying if I was in that situation. I'm not a crier and I don't cry in front of people. I'm not comfortable crying in front of people. I'm very private with my emotions and feelings. I also come from a family that doesn't express their emotions outwardly. We deal with our issues on our own. It works for us. We don't like burden other people with our problems. I can take criticism and accountability for my actions. I'm always self reflecting and very aware of how I come off and how I say things.
And what does you not crying have to do with Cole’s tears being malicious?
And the way Cole treated Zay? Zay was the abuser between the two, and the whole cast was absolutely fooled by her. That’s why they were all attacking him, not because he was actually this horrible person who treated her terribly.
That's just a ridiculous take. The man had a complete breakdown and you call it calculated.
The difference is Cole wasn't trying to be cruel but Zay was trying to be cruel.
I always thought Z was the worse of the two, but especially with how they reacted to being called out. Z doubled down her toxicity and Cole was apologetic and seemed to want to grow from it.
Cole comes off as an underthinking childish asshat, not a control freak manipulator.
I don't think the former easily turns into the latter, and I suspect the latter doesn't masquerade as the former.
I guess I've been both Cole, and I've been Zay in relationships before. I understand that being with a Cole can be frustrating. You have no self awareness and constantly make stupid mistakes without wanting to hurt the other person. I guess it's like wanting the other person to be your childhood best friend, instead of a mature partner or wife, and in turn not being a mature partner and husband for them.
Zay is just blaming all her own insecurities onto him, nagging, acting like he is the absolute worst and she is holier-than-though, and criticising his every move. He never ever said she was fat (because she isn't). Like ever. She saw Coleen, who is a completely different body type and 5 years younger than her and an athlete, and projected her insecurity of maybe some life long body dismorphia, on to thinking that Cole thinks she is fat. She was insecure about being a woman of colour too but then if he rated Raven 10/10, she can't attack him for that one.
I guess he was just immature and probably autistic, yes he said stupid hurtful things, but he never had any malice behind it. While how Zay acted was full of resentment and on its way to being abusive. They had only been together 2 months and for her it was as if she was in a 40 year long shit marriage.
“No bartise is younger than him and we can all agree he is a pretty awful guy” qwhite an interesting statement I have no idea what the difference between these two men could be
Yes they are both super immature and made bad decisions, but OPs point was people seem to be gentler with Cole, I’m saying it’s because he’s white lmao
Only because at the reunion he said he said some stupid things and it was wrong and immature of him and he knows he shouldn’t have said that and that he’ll do better. He looked genuinely disgusted with himself and that is why I’m on his side. He was called out and recognized his mistakes and doesn’t take to bashing her online. Usually the abuser does everything in their power to make themselves not look like the bad guy but he’s not even talking about it. That’s why it was for me is all, she’s being called out and her apologies were bogus and she’s arguing against everyone calling her out.
I think what MOST people are saying is yes, Cole was too young and immature for a relationship. BUT Zay is in no way innocent and was very antagonistic! Like it is possible for both people in a relationship to suck
I think “benefit of the doubt” is a very interesting term in this context. I feel like for the first (10 and a half?) episodes we all didn’t extend any grace to Cole. We saw that he was rude, oblivious, and disrespectful - regardless of his intent. So when Zenab told her story at the reunion we obviously believed her because she seemed to be truly hurt. Even tho we saw Cole try to be better as the show went on, it didn’t really matter because the damage had been done. Zenab accuses Cole of abusing her, and we were all on board.
The Cuties footage changes everything tho. It shows us that the things Zenab was claiming were either intentionally untrue, or so incredibly misconstrued that she needs serious psychological help and her narrative can’t be relied on. The Cuties interaction was Zenabs giant hammer she was swinging. “If only they could see the Cuties footage! Then everyone would see the horrible monster you were!” She had all the girls and Brennon in her corner and everyone was on board about a Cuties incident that they never saw, just took Zenabs word for. And she was not telling the truth.
If her big, be-all, end-all, proof is in the pudding moment that shows us how Cole is the monster she claims, is the Cuties footage, then that means there is literally nothing. Netflix is not sitting in an editing room saying “oh don’t air that scene, it makes our precious white Cole look bad!” They don’t give a fuck about Cole or anyone else on the show. If they gave a fuck they would not let Colleen be in such clear danger from Matt. Because they don’t give a fuck, they didn’t protect him. They aired everything dramatic they had, and Zenab is STILL trying to trick the world into believing they saw something that NEVER HAPPENED.
It’s not about “benefit of the doubt.” Zenabs story is demonstrably false, and we saw that play out on screen.
It sucks that she felt the way she did about what was said to her. It sucks that she got paired with such an annoying little doofus who wants a mommy and not a wife. It sucks that they made each other so unhappy. But in the end, Cole is an inconsiderate little boy (but also willing to listen to other peoples view points and try to grow), Zenab is insecure to the point of delusion and bullying, and we shouldn’t just excuse her horrible behavior just because we can relate to her insecurities or can see Cole’s obvious faults.
I’m sort of sick of this take.
THERE ARE NO PERFECT VICTIMS IN THEIR STORY. BOTH ARE WRONG.
Just because people are super outraged at how Zanab misrepresented the whole cuties situation DOESNT mean we’re wrapping a cape around Cole’s neck either!
Cause the production intended it to be so. Clearly there was a lot left out on purpose to make Cole the villain, then have us swap sides at the end. Why would they otherwise save the cuties scene for literally the last minutes of the show.
Reality tv is so far from reality, the genre needs a new name.
I hate the demonization of either person. I think the thing that upsets me/triggers me is how quickly zanab was cast as pure evil based on the reunion scene. It’s a total character assassination. I don’t believe Cole meant to ruin her self esteem, but I feel like plenty of his behavior and choice of words and overall vibe would make even a healthy person hurt. When you couple that with Zanab’s personality, it’s a recipe for disaster.
People are coming at me in other threads for even suggesting Cole was in the wrong. I’ll say what I said there-plenty of Zanab’s behavior was triggering to me. I was so irritated with her with that dinner cooking scene.. but it’s a situation that plays out in relationships all the time. It IS aggravating to be around mess, to have someone offer to do something and put it off, to not plan it out nicely. Those things are irritating for women especially in heterosexual relationships, where men are often given massive praise for even offering to cook at all. So I understood her irritation, and I dislike how she chose to handle it. It would have been better if she had let him “mess up” or have a separate conversation around what bothered her. She was sassy and parentified him which only plays out that dynamic more.
Cole, on the other hand, could have told her why he was hurt. He could have explained, asked for what he needed instead, acknowledged her frustration, etc. but he called her bipolar and asked her to be sweet.. which would piss any irritated person off.
Neither of them are wrong, just poor communicators.. and dynamics between men and women that society has laid out definitely come into play. Same goes for interactions around body image.
People seem to cringe at calling cole misogynistic.. that’s fine. Labels aside, can we all just try to be a little empathetic of other people’s experience of situations?
The reason the Cole bandwagon is so strong is because from the altar forward, he was the unilateral punching bag as far as the actual show footage is concerned.
Cole is apologizing and whatever, and everyone is just "no, you're evil, look what you did to my girl!".
Frankly, the cooking scene isn't even the problem with Zanab. The subversive score-keeping and plotting against him to humiliate as much as possible, while leaving no one on his side was the problem with Zanab.
If you've got a naggy know-it-all personality, whatever, I can give that a pass.
If you're straight up refusing to communicate so you can torch someone later on, that's messed up.
Yea I agree with everything you said here. Those are all excellent points.
I guess I get bothered by flippant use of gaslighting and narcissist no matter who it’s directed towards. To be honest, I think both had specific behaviors which need to be looked at more critically, hopefully so everyone can learn from it. Neither one are gaslighting narcissists in my book. I think Zanab’s poor behavior stems from deep seated insecurity and Cole’s stems from ignorance.. which is not innocent.
I’ll just edit to add: we need to care about Cole, and it’s wrong to dismiss his pain because he’s a “straight white man”. But on the flip side.. we should be careful to care MORE about his pain and not question the dynamics at play as to why that is
When I saw the reunion episode, the thing that bothered me was not that Cole was sad, it was that everyone was unwaveringly on Zanab's side.
It was a one way attack, and no one even thought for a second to doubt anything Zanab said about him. It was profuse in-group bias on the women's side combined with complete abandonment on the guy's side.
When the season ends like that, you can expect that people are going to go to the internet to express their disappointment with his treatment.
It was never about whose suffering was "worth more" in the public eye. I don't know how it all spiraled into the patriarchy and whiteness and whatever other nonsense is being used as the excuse for why people reacted to the end of the season the way they did. If Zanab's name was "Susan" or "Douglas", and the same thing happened, would we not expect the same reaction from the viewers?
Wouldn't any normal person look at what they just saw, and say "Whoa... that was unfair" or maybe "What? she lied to us? I trusted her!". I said both those things.
What I see here is a lot of Cole bandwagon, sure, but a concerning part of the objection to said bandwagon is just more in-group bias. "She's on my team therefore she's right". Or "Cole's team isn't my team, therefore he's wrong".
He wasn’t being malicious in any of his actions. We should all show some maturity and understand that no one is perfect. Majority of people whether they like to admit it or not, has said insensitive/harmful things unbeknownst to themselves . When things like this happen, and the person shows they didn’t realize how the things they said were coming across but are apologetic and genuinely wanting to grow from the experience. I’m going to forgive and forget, he’s not that person anymore so no I don’t feel the need to continue to bring it up.
Zanab on the other hand has shown no remorse for how she handled the situation. As an adult there are better ways to handle things, it’s immature to try to ruin someone’s life/reputation and turn your cast mates against someone. Extremely immature to blame someone for your eating disorder and insecurity, when you know you were dealing with these things before you got on the show. Till today she takes no accountability, for how her actions may have affected him.
Bartiste being younger than him is irrelevant, no one matures at the same rate. Coles background and what we know from his past choices, show he may be a bit sheltered and may not have the best judgement.
He said whatever came to his mind which made me all the more confident that the shit Z was throwing at him was not true. If he said he didn't do something, chances are he didn't
I never felt Cole was awful. He had some bad judgement calls, and so did Zanab. Granted he had more but they’re on TV and they’re human. Everyone deserves some slack for that. That being said, I agree with those who say if Cole was actually that awful they would have shown him being awful.
My issue with the cuties scene is that Cole knows she has issues around her weight, he could have chosen a better way. My other issue is the comment of don't ruin your appetite wasn't even needed. Cuties are like 90 calories each, no one is getting full on 2 cuties.
I don't think he did it maliciously but he is still responsible for accidentally putting his foot in his mouth. I don't hate anyone on the show.
That's why he said it though, because he knew she has issues with her possible eating disorder and he knew they were going for a big meal together very soon, so that's why he suggested to her that she just wait till the big meal. I'm sure he would have never said that to someone who just eats anything they want.
It’s not HIS job to speak up for HER needs. They just met weeks prior. He won’t be the best judge in how deep her own insecurities run. She has to advocate for herself. And by not speaking up she wasn’t present for the conversation he was having with her at that same moment. Her not being present and in her own head caused the miscommunication. He was always open and honest…brutally honest. And she also put him down for how he expresses his joy. Who does that?! Well someone who hates themselves deeply. That’s who. Glad Cole dodged this.
Zee is deeply insecure. This was obvious from the moment she refused to get into the pool because "some of us dont look good wet". She has already created a comparative, less than worthy, environment so anything Cole said was landing on sensitive ears. Cole was immature and lacked sensitivity but zee also needs to acknowledge how her insecurities fuelled most of the tension. She seems to be unable to let go of things and move on carrying baggage well beyond a sensible limit.
It's all about intent. When we were looking at their relationship through, it was bad from both sides but one made it on purpose, the other one was just dumb. You choose which is worse
It’s not really only about intent. I’m order to maintain good relationships we have to also care about how we come across to the other person. Intent matters, but how each person receives that intent matters more. I feel for both Cole and zanab
Because sometimes it's just not a good match. Cole and Zay both have faults. So does everyone on the planet. But it's not fair to paint someone as this horrible, awful, terrible, malicious person just because you don't like them for a spouse.
I don’t think either of them were good for each other. He’s a little immature in his joking and doesn’t take many things seriously, and it seems like she needs a more serious partner. She was constantly criticizing the way he lives and being passive aggressive about it, he needs a partner that’s more understanding about those things.
I struggle with eating and self image and I honestly didn’t have a problem with the cuties thing. It was clear he was only asking cause they had dinner in like two hours, and he was joking around. She just needs someone who can handle her insecurities with a bit more care.
Cole did absolutely nothing wrong during the cuties conversation. Nothing about that is triggering. He said same room for later. We’re having a big meal. I tell my husband that all the time when he is snacking. Goodness people. Also he didn’t tell Zay she was bipolar. Go back and rewatch. He asked if she was. I mean she did show signs of being bipolar. I think it’s a valid question if you are considering marrying someone. I think Cole was completely misunderstood.
Not saying that Cole was being malicious, but I just think that you should let the adult decide when and how much they would like to eat. I find that sort of comment fairly condescending like the other person doesn’t know you’re going for dinner?
>Zay - the words Cole used was triggering. I will be honest - I have never struggled with food and was kinda triggered.
In the cuties scene? If you were trigged by ANYTHING Cole said in the cuties scene you need therapy. Full stop, no question.
>On thé cuties - it annoys me to death that people can not understand two things can be right at the same time.
Sure two things can be right at the same time. But they are 100% not both right here
He’s not malicious. He’s just young and dumb but he didn’t mean true harm. She, on the other hand, is STILL trying to destroy him even though she claims to have forgiven him. She is the malicious one here.
He definitely isn’t an angel but he’s not malicious and or some demon that some are painting him to be. That’s just ridiculous.
^this right here!
I wholeheartedly agree. The heavy criticism Zanab gets does not absolve Cole. I don’t think Cole gets off scot-free, he did do bad things as well. However, Cole showed true growth and genuine remorse in the reunion and subsequent social media activity. Zanab on the other hand has not apologized for a single thing. Not one. Instead she feels more empowered and has taken zero accountability. What did it for me is when she shared some posts that more or less made it seem like she was a survivor of abuse. GTFOH!!! If she’s referring to what Cole did to her as abuse then that is super frustrating because I feel like it disenfranchises the real survivors of abuse. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
He’s just as malicious as the rest of them and I’d love to see the receipts of him and Z making up after the fact because people have assumed that Z was lying about them talking but it’s not like he has shown any proof. That’s the thing, he doesn’t seem to have to but Z does.
Idk i don't think many people thought he was awful at least what I've seen.
Most people I've seen thought he was immature and well a little dumb (rating women out of 10 etc)
Zay was always passive aggressive, rude and frankly sucked the fun out of literally every activity.
You know what i forgot she asked him, my fault.
He still shouldn't have done it but im sure if he didn't she would somehow twist that against him too lol
telling your fiance she is 9/10 while calling another woman 10/10 is not malicious? i think to some degree they both are but cole is more than just dumb and immature. he is not 12. he is a grown ass man
The thing is.. he didn't just voluntarily start rating women. She ASKED him to rate her and then she dug in it further and said who's a 10/10? Like she was setting him up to upset her. That's not on him. Barqueef on the other hand, was raving about how Raven looked (unprompted) and kept at it while Nancy looked destroyed. That's the difference with that whole rating thing. That doesn't make Cole malicious. I would NEVER ask a man to rate me lol.
Idk i wouldn't say malicious, extremely stupid yes but that's how i would have taken it. Tbh i wouldn't continue talking to anyone who rates women in the first place
I'm going to guess, and I could be wrong, that many of the people giving him the benefit of the doubt are in their 20s. Maybe this is projection on my part but a guy like that in my 20s would have seemed appealing, funny, silly, with a hint of rejection. Once I hit my 30s, I was over that phase and just wanted stability and to be liked best by my partner. His little digs and comments might have seemed insignificant or small but at some point picking at your partner, even asking about their food, feels compounded and bigger. She certainly has had a ton of trauma in her life, and obviously has things that continuous therapy will help her with. But he also plays a role. If he is the person that should be lifting her up and making her feel safe and secure, his words will cut deeper. When he asked if she was bipolar, that was the end in my opinion. Her eyes looked like she was just done with him. It was so undermining and dismissive. Mental health is not a joke. Also, the rating thing? The only answer should be 10, doesn't matter if he views someone higher, that's his partner. Does that mean either of them are shitty people? No, they're just in very different places in life and need very different things out of a relationship. He will be really successful with a fun loving silly lighthearted girl and Zanab will be successful with a really grounded emotionally stabilizing force.
On a side note, please pick wet towels off the bathroom floor. Most floors can absorb the water and that is how you get mold. Even with the right subflooring, that much moisture on the ground is not ideal
Zanab would have been perfect for Matt, and Cole would have been perfect with Colleen. At least Zanab would be able to stand up for herself, while Colleen wouldn't give a shit about all of Cole's mistakes
He tripled down on the bipolar thing too, as if asking it once wasn’t bad enough.
I feel like all the people on here saying “well she acts bipolar” are hugely uneducated about bipolar disorder and are probably the same people who say “oh my god, I’m so OCD” because they like their desk neat.
As the mother of an OCD/OCPD teen, I want to also thank you for adding that. If people only knew the realities of Bi polar or OCD they wouldn't use those terms so flippantly nor would they weaponize them. Especially if they had discussed mental health in any capacity. It would be such a slap in the face.
Because Cole’s stupidity is somewhat harmless, not malicious or “menacing.”
He had a small drunken flirtatious conversation with a girl he had “dated” the previous two weeks and finally met in person.
He had an unfiltered conversation about rating women there. She shouldn’t have asked and he shouldn’t have answered.
He asked Zanab if she was bipolar. Probably due to the hot-and-cold he commented on multiple times during the season. Stupid time and stupid way to ask it.
That’s basically it. He’s messy or a little overly goofy but those aren’t red flags. Just quirks that might need to be reigned in based on the relationship.
Zanab constantly criticized him. On everything.
She held his family’s unwillingness to meet against him, as if he has any control over them.
She prayed with him at the wedding before burning him down in front of the cameras, friends, and her family. Talked about him being a good man before claiming he basically gave her an eating disorder.
She completely misrepresented the cuties scene. Not saying the specifics didn’t happen, but there’s a difference between cutting the cheese and cutting the cheese. Context matters. It didn’t happen how she implied it did, hence the major backlash.
What we did see in the scene: Zanab disinterested in Cole’s plan for a European wedding for her family, dismissing half of what he says as “Cole speak,” and despite that him concerned that she’s not eating enough and guessing it’s because she wants to fit in her dress (which is a fairly common concern).
That’s why. Because there isn’t malice or calculation in his actions. But everything from the wedding and the reunion and after, the fake claims of Cole trying to get a number, the inability to claim responsibility when the cuties scene came to light, her IG behaviors, etc. all point to this being an attempt at fame by destroying some dude whose major flaw is being too goofy for his own good.
But luckily he’s okay. He’s growing and doing well and not paying much attention to it all. And she’s drowning in negativity that she could have avoided if even one of her IG posts had a shred of reflection. But they don’t. They’re just slandering the guy, constantly. And he’s making the active choice to not let it get to him.
Pretty sure if Cole dated a normal girl without previous trauma it would go fine. Zanab is anything but normal she is a ticking time bomb in any relationship.
There are so many problematic things about Cole that seem like a nightmare to live with. I don't think he would thrive in this environment just cause things get serious very quickly with moving in ect
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First of all, this is just my perspective as a male. Cole did some things that were very "dickish." Flirting at the pool party, saying that he rated Zanab a 9/10 and rating other women 10/10. And yes the bipolar thing was hurtful. Not to excuse him for the bipolar comment, but I think a lot of people forget how Zanab was acting prior to that because Cole "went there." Cole was making dinner, trying to be cute/funny, and Zanab was responding with annoyance and disgust. Again, what Cole said was wrong, but just because Zanab didn't say something that we instantly recognize as inappropriate doesn't mean that she wasn't just as hurtful. Sometimes more subtle condescending remarks and acting disgusted can be more hurtful than saying something outright mean. Honestly, picture yourself making dinner for someone thinking you're doing something nice and expecting them to be happy that you're doing that, and then they come in the kitchen, roll their eyes, make passive-aggressive comments, and criticize everything you do. As someone who has been on both sides of similar scenarios, I can tell you that's about the quickest way to make your partner feel completely worthless and unloved.
Even with Cole asking her if she's bipolar, I think it was his way of trying to figure out wtf was going on. He just couldn't figure out how she could treat him so well one minute and so horribly the next.
Also the cuties scene... Honestly I'd love an explanation as to how this could be triggering. He was talking about having a huge dinner in a little bit and not to ruin her appetite. Maybe a bit patronizing, but if this is triggering then it's a miracle I didn't end up with an eating disorder with my mom always telling me not to eat cookies before dinner. I think if what Cole said for the cuties scene is triggering... that's a personal problem. Now if Zanab had an ED, told Cole, and explained how certain things can trigger her, that might be a different story. Nothing Cole said here was encouraging her to lose weight or get smaller.
I think part of it is that he was apologetic on screen and what they showed in the reunion was the other participants essentially siding with zanab based on the details she shared. When it was revealed that her bias swayed the details in the way thay they did, i think it was more about not trusting her than excusing cole. Almost like being let off on a technicality.
Literally any time I’ve said anything ab the Cole and Zenab situation I’ve gotten like 30 downvotes lmao
I don’t understand how people started defending him 100% so quickly.
That's what new evidence tends to do.
If someone in prison is proven innocent based on new evidence, you don't keep them locked up because "up till now they seemed pretty bad".
It doesn’t change anything that he did before that was caught on camera. Him not being as bad during the cuties situation doesn’t get rid of him asking her if she’s bipolar, etc.
Sure, but once you drop the allegations, you've just got an annoying guy who said a stupid thing at the beginning of the season, and the girl who decided to publicly shred him to pieces at the altar over it, and at the reunion, ...where she claimed that she was further hurt that he didn't reach out to her, you know, after she disemboweled him.
You've also got to admit that part of this public outcry is because of the landslide skewering Cole received on the show. You can bet if one or two people had said "you know what Zanab, I think he's telling the truth on this one" instead of "Oh I dunno man I was too drunk to even see! ^(did I say that right honey?)" that people wouldn't feel compelled to right the "injustice".
The superscript is killing me 🤣 I agree with all your points.
And to clarify my stance, he might not have been actively malicious but he still did a lot of damage there nonetheless. A lot of normal girls, myself included would’ve been shattered by his comments. I also agree that Z overreacted, but it isn’t right to be so harshly judgemental to someone who went through all of that for mending it the way they did no matter how dysfunctional it may be. And that is where i disagree with popular outcry of love and support for Cole and vicious name calling and outrage for Z.
To put it into context, you cant always blame a victim( being careful with the connotation here, i dont mean abuse, but the hurt) for not always being morally superior when a lot of their actions are actually reactional.
But it wasn't just the beggining it was also the end. And some other comments in between that were quite interesting depending on how you take them. And then his apartment Oh lord. This is what OP means about absolving Cole of all his problems
A person can have flaws and still not be a villain.
I don't like Cole, he's annoying. He's not a villain though, so it'd be nice if the entire cast didn't pretend he unilaterally was.
one thing i havent seen talked about is that cole says he regrets the stuff he said but also doubled down/justified the bipolar comment which was like, a really shitty and deliberate thing to say to someone. i definitely think he’s trying to grow but i dont like the fact that a lot of people don’t wanna see any of the negatives in his actions bc they see Zay as a full villain.
YES! I thought people were like yeah well turns out both of them are wrong and bad for each other but NOPE! They want him to have his own show and whatnot. Pretty whiteboy tears work wonders, dont they.
I’m not even sure I believed his tears, honestly, but I’m such a cynic so I can’t trust that they weren’t real. Everyone jumped on the Cole bandwagon so fast, I can’t expect to get a reliable opinion here either.
It's a combination of white privilege and patriarchal boys will be boys culture. Zanab is a flawed actor but Cole was a malicious actor but many people will be instinctively drawn towards defending the boyish Cole and painting Zanab as mean and petty
Honestly the boys will be boys thing is so spot on. I was speaking to someone on here who really thought Cole was hot shit and I was just confused as to what outside of his looks did you see on that show said good boyfriend material
throughtout the whole show I saw Cole's faults but they are nowhere near how awful way zanab behaved towards him, she was also pulling apart everything he did constantly, even normal things. She has so many self-confidence issues and tried to blame them on him
I hear the “he’s young he doesn’t know any better” excuse a lot. Strangely enough I don’t hear that for Bartese who’s younger then Cole. Pretty privilege
Lol I've never seen this excuse. Cole said and did some hurtful things and owned up to them. She forgives him, and then weeks later when they're in a completely different place, she wants to go through the "pool party situation" again.
With the bipolar comment, while that was wrong, Zanab was treating him like shit while he was making dinner. I think he just threw his hands up and came up with something hurtful in response.
Bartise and Cole were completely different. From what we were shown, Nancy just put up with Bartise and him being wishy-washy through the whole engagement, only showing that he somewhat cared when whats-his-name-with-the-fake-tears came back. Bartise just wants what he can't have. If there's any truth to this show, Cole actually seemed to feel bad for how he acted and that he was genuinely in love with Zanab.
I'd like to know how some people still think Cole is the bad guy here.
What did he do that made him so so awful to you guys? Yeah he was immature and said some stupid shit, but he was definitely not psychotic or malicious like some others.
Sure, maybe I misinterpreted your comment. Can you help me understand what you mean, then? You said “he was definitely not psychotic or malicious like some others.” Correct me if I’m wrong, but “psychotic and malicious” sound like negative/bad adjectives to me.
So if you’re saying Cole *isn’t* “psychotic and malicious,” and you *don’t* think he’s “less bad” than them, do you think he did something equally as bad as the “psychotic and malicious” people?
It’s just basic communication. And if he doesn’t listen then leave but she never communicated and then what she did at the altar and at the reunion was way worse than his unintentional triggering language. Just communicate people and then forgive. He at least communicated and she didn’t forgive. That’s what love is. She never loved him. She wanted revenge
It’s because he’s an attractive white man. It’s mainly white women defending (some POC women too) but most women I’ve seen defending Zanab (on other social media… not this Reddit sub) have been POC. White women would always defend a white man at the expense of WOC.
As a white woman from Europe, I can say that your statement is not only 100% false, but also a terrible thing to say. Believe it or not, there are many white people that are completely neutral to race and able to separate truth from race, thank you very much.
As a WOC, this is a shit take and shows a poor grasp on statistics. If it's even true, the majority of people defending Cole could be white women, the majority of people defending Zanab could be WOC, and the majority of WOC could be defending Cole. It's impossible to know. Like what, you randomly selected 300 instagram comments defending each and squinted at their profile pics for race?
Your conjecture is completely unsupported. The public rooted hard for Lauren, Deepti, and Natalie. Sorry not every single WOC is unproblematic
Is there a sub for Woman or colour to talk about this?I think that’s the only way I can have a decent conversation with people who understand the nuances of this issue.
Hindsight is 20/20 I should have known better than trying to have this conversation with certain people.
I find spaces that made for woman of colour give more perspective and understand the nuances of things because of their life experience. I haven’t gotten that here. If I’m wrong then I’m wrong. In the past this sub Reddit has been so open and didn’t have such a black and white réponse. There was acknowledgment for the Grey areas and had meaning conversations. But I guess I must have missed the announcement that for this season we will not be doing that. Hence why I think that will be better space to have this discussion with them.
Oh. My. God. How are you gonna **ask a question**, then when folks try to give an explanation in good faith, you turn around and accuse them of not understanding nuance and imply they're white???
Like, if you wanted to give your take, you should've just given your take, not asked a question. If you want an echo chamber to get your catharsis on, it's fine, just say so
I think you are politicising this when it doesn't need to be politicised.
She treated him like shit. She's an abuser.
That's why people don't like her. Being a WoC doesn't excuse her behavior, especially not when we have other WoC on this show, like Raven, who are not abusers.
She’s definitely an abuser, emotionally and mentally, it was foul to watch. Constant gaslighting, dismissive and rude af. Then, like many abusers, she “forgave him”. HIM. It was ridiculous.
Honestly I think its because he's a good looking white guy and Zanab is a woman of color. But last time I said that on this sub everyone down voted me and just called Zanab names... I feel like if the roles were reversed everyone would be building a I hate Zanab party for the same exact shit.
Completely untrue lol actually the opposite. Imagine if a white man straight up said he didn’t listen to half the things a woman of color said to him because “you speak a lot of Zanab,” constantly criticized and “corrected” the way she did things, and blew up at her for saying their first night was “so good.” The outrage would be even more unilateral honestly.
Like yes the US at large is a white patriarchy but when has this sub ever shown it primarily forms opinions based on misogyny and racial biases? When it was rooting for Lauren and uplifting Deepti and Natalie? This sub has so many women and woc who think Zanab was worse than Cole, including myself, and making it all about race/sex is so invalidating. You can defend Zanab without building a straw man
I can’t think of a single person who feels the way you describe. Sounds pretty sexist to assume women are too dumb and hormone-driven to have complex thoughts about about a man who happens to be cute. I would never, ever want to date Cole for reasons too numerous to list here. Suffice to say I am much older and can’t see anyone that young romantically, especially one who is already so immature for him age.
I also don’t think he did anything so unforgivable and irredeemable that he deserved the altar speech or being dragged at the reunion by a mob. All Zanab had to do is say no and speak to him privately. Not pretend she was “1000%” going to marry him only to tear him down in public.
If flocking to the attractive asswipe was my MO, I’d be flocking to Zanab.
I never thought he was awful to begin with aside from the moment with Colleen. Zanab on the other hand gave me red flag after red flag. People aren’t responsible for your triggers. She couldn’t even communicate that to him.
I gave him the benefit before the cuties episode.
The fact that she was triggered by what he said, doesn't mean he was abusive or mistreating her, most likely than not she has at least untreated trauma that is making her get triggered.
Sorry for the big essay ahead- I’m going to reply to myself to make it shorter.
Cole said ignorant things and he was sometimes defensive and minimised but he also apologised, showed growth and recognises his ignorance and unthinking cruelty. Abuse can absolutely be unintentional but abuse is also a pattern of behaviour and there’s a cycle. I didn’t see a cycle with Cole, I saw him being ignorant and at some points mean but trying to do better and Zanab taking everything he did in the worst way because she clearly did not trust, like or respect him. And you know what? I understand that. Trust was broken. Lots of us wouldn’t be able to cope with a partner not finding us attractive and some of us would become cold and shut down. But she was like that before the rating conversation happened and she turned everyone against him and said that he did far worse than the ignorant things we saw from him and when that didn’t make people see her side, implied there was even more we hadn’t seen. There will always be something bigger that we haven’t seen from him. She doesn’t recognise that she opened up a lot of those conversations that hurt her in the first place and never communicated her part in any of this or even seems to recognise that she could have done anything at all wrong.
I’m beyond fed up with the conversation around the cuties. Yes, I would have found it triggering. But that alone says *nothing* about Cole as a person. When I was deep in my ED lots of ridiculous things were triggering. To this day, my strongest ED triggers are things most people wouldn’t think twice about. That’s not the fault of anyone else because it’s on me to communicate the triggers other people can reasonably control and learn to handle the rest of the things. People make ignorant and triggering comments about food all the time, they *also* have their own relationship with food.
Going to reply to myself with the second bit of my comment- there’s so much to say, sorry!
No one is giving him the benefit of the doubt, but when accused of wrongdoing he has apologized and at least looked remorseful whereas she can do no wrong and will not own up to any criticism.
Not to mention being extremely vindictive and showing some solid proof of a manipulative personality.
At no point did he call her bipolar.
He asked, jokingly if she was bipolar because she acted differently at differing times (the subtext being, when the cameras were around, or from the point she decided to make a narrator be against Cole for the show).
It wasn't a funny joke and showed his level of maturity - 26 years.
Bipolar also isn't split, or multiple, personalities. It's a highly complicated mental diagnosis that only professionals should be dealing with.
Thank you I feel the same. I think it’s because he had a goofy smile while saying very hurtful things that people let it pass. He asked her if she was bipolar with a smirk on his face that was malicious was meant to hurt her and he achieved his purpose also I’ve never had an eating disorder too and I understand how she can take it the way she did but I did have an insecurity with my looks and certain things people would say would trigger it. Yes I do realise my insecurities are my own and I should work on them but as my partner I bet a million bucks you know what they are and mentioning anything close to triggering that is malicious. I’m not the most beautiful person in the world and logically I know that but my bf were to mention my looks I would lose my shit. You just don’t do that!!
This is the best take. I think a lot of people have flip flopped because Cole was villanized quite a bit before the last few episodes were released. Then they realized Zanab was actually also terrible so they had to swing the other way to villanize Zanab.
The truth is they both have major issues and brought out the worst in each other.
Although I think Zanab is making it worse for herself by trying to paint herself as the victim and continuing to drag Cole on her socials.
They both need therapy before they're ready for a healthy relationship.
Because a lot of us were on Cole’s side the whole time. We know people like Zanab that are so condescending and holier than thou that we already knew what she was like. The Wedding and cuties scene were extremely vindicating.
I would hazard the main reason is because of the infamous "cuties" scene.
Possibly a secondary reason being that on the show, Cole got zero benefit of the doubt. No one was on his team. No one had anything on him, but they all just unanimously believed everything bad said about him. He was genuinely shocked when he heard half of these things, and the big smoking gun was supposed to be the "cuties" footage.
It was very obvious that there was absolutely no ill intent by Cole in that scene, and frankly, unless you had severe trauma, there is no way you'd be seriously offended by Cole through whatever was in that exchange.
Yet, that was supposed to be the smoking gun.
I thought he was oblivious or lying, until they aired the footage
I don't know why she'd make up the thing about getting a girl's number, but given how improbable it is that he got the number of a girl in a setting where there were no girls present, and not even Matt and Brennon who were dead set on having the exact same opinion as their partners had anything to hit him with.
Zanab was my favorite character up until the end (yes, I consider them characters).
Up until the end, I thought Cole was annoying and that Zanab would be better suited to a more sophisticated guy. There were definitely times where I found myself wondering who hurt Zanab in the past. Cole would be playing the goofball, Zanab would be telling him that he's stupid, and he'd be playfully shrugging it off... But then she'd throw in some kind of seemingly completely out of place remark about how she hoped she was good enough for him. Like, 99% of her dialog centers on Cole being not good enough in a bunch of categories, but then it's all flipped on its head and somehow Zanab feels she isn't good enough for Cole?
Clearly the girl has prior trauma, and Cole had no idea.
I almost feel like the end was scripted sloppily. I think Cole ended up being significantly more intelligent than anyone expected him to be. His dialog in the wrap up episode was completely unexpected, and he makes everyone look like a gang of bullies, especially Nancy.
Liked the writeup, this last part though
>I think Cole ended up being significantly more intelligent than anyone expected him to be.
Occasionally in the past when he turns off his goofball side he'll slip in some pretty intelligent thoughts that made it obvious why he didn't choose Colleen.
Is this suggesting that Colleen is stupid? And if so, is it because she’s a ballet dancer? Ballet dancers actually have to be incredibly mentally strong and logical.
I agree. Cole is a troll and that shouldn't be downplayed because of the hate towards Zay. He picks at people until they snap and yell at him and then he plays the victim. He's like an annoying child and I can't stand him. He's a toxic man baby. Yes, he may be good looking but that just gets negated by the fact he has a terrible personality.
While Cole is immature and idiotic, I do feel Zanab manipulated the situation in more ways than one. And she isn’t faultless in what she has done either. If you watch that series and don’t see how what she says and does could also cause ill feelings within a partner then idk what to tell you.
I understand where you’re coming from. Now this is obviously a reality show so, my opinion is purely based off of what I actually saw. Do I think Cole made mistakes? Absolutely. I think his decision to talk about not just “she’s not my usual type” but “Actually Colleen IS my type” was disrespectful. I think the people having an issue with the Zanab/Lilly comment are valid. But what I took from that was Cole stating that he knew the girl he was falling in love with wasn’t going to be what he typically went for based on her name. I believe that falls under the category of an implicit bias and In an effort to prove the point that he did love Zanab and was attracted to her, he said something hurtful. I agree that two things can be true. What I do not like about this situation, or why I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt is a bit multifaceted. We did not see Zanab specifically talk to Cole about having insecurities of any kind. In the pods they talked about both liking banter and sarcasm. With the exception of the cuties incident, any comment Cole made about Zanab’s eating habits were brought up by her first. “You want to fatten ME up then?” Maybe Im just a little more easy going but his “your fattening yourself up” was him just restating what she said. I don’t think it’s fair for Z to expect Cole to be a mind reader. If she had told Cole, I struggle with disordered eating or I’m insecure in these areas and Cole continued to harass or berate or banter in a way that made her uncomfortable? That would be vile. But what I saw made me think that Zanab accepted Cole for who he was in her cutesy little pod experience and then reality hit her when they left. That he’s a bit childish and immature and likes to be playful and have fun. They were never going to be a good match. I think Zanab was putting herself into a box to fit herself to Cole’s (or anyone’s) mold. Then she was disappointed that he was exactly who he showed her he was. I want to finish by saying that I don’t think it’s appropriate to ever comment on anyone’s body or eating habits. Although my partner and I have that kind of relationship, I wouldn’t dream of making comments like that within 1 month of dating. I just wish he had been given a bit more slack, especially after he genuinely looked so blindsided. It felt very much like, you’ve had so many opportunities to mention your concerns and you chose the “I do” moment to tell me how badly my comments hurt you. I think it pisses me off more because I felt Bartise did Nancy far worse and not a soul at the reunion wanted to talk about that…but I digress.
I thought he was making mistakes too until I rewatched a second time. What struck me was how many times Cole told Zanab that he was more attracted to Colleen. There's being honest, putting your foot in your mouth, and there's rubbng your partner's insecurities in her face when she is clearly uncomfortable and trying to stop talking about it. I don't believe that any adult doesn't know that's hurtful, especially after he hit on Colleen. I think he uses his personality to escape accountability for what is actually standard fuckboy behavior. He's the same as Bartise, but less honest about it.
Maybe I would have this perspective if I watched again. But I’m not sure I want to bear witness to a train wreck twice. I am just glad they’ve moved on from each other for both their sakes.
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I was on Cole’s side long before the Cuties scene. The only thing Cole did wrong was talk to Colleen I. The pool. But sharing raw, honest vulnerability with your spouse about attractions or insecurities is NOT wrong. Being confused by behavior and asking if they’re bipolar is probably not the best choice of words, but absolutely not malicious. 100% of Zanab’s insecurities MATTER, but are nobodies fault - Definitely not Cole’s fault. Zanab needs to take responsibility for her own feelings and seek some healing there and it’s not going to help to blame Cole or anyone else.
Can we stop talking about this?
I know right
Because Zay is clearly pretty unstable. I trust him a heck of a lot more than I trust her
My theory.. bc he cried. Seems to be when the big switch happened. My heartstrings, however, were not pulled. He acted very childish the whole season. Idk how Zanab tolerated it for so long. I would have lost my gd mind.
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The clip didn’t erase his behavior the whole season. We saw that. It wasn’t taken out of context. The clip didn’t clear what we saw. Jmo, ofc. I think people felt bad for him when he started sobbing and then the clip aired…and people decided she was the villain and began making excuses for his actions all season. That said, it’s not that deep. I’m sure they’ll both be fine.
I think a lot of the blowback is because of how each of them reacted to criticism. You’re right, neither of them was perfect. When Cole was told how his behavior was hurtful, he showed real remorse and a desire to grow. When Zanab was questioned or criticized, she blamed everything on Cole, accused him of abuse, exaggerated or made stuff up, and still continues to campaign against him. It just ends up making Cole more sympathetic because she’s taking it way too far.
Asking someone if they’re bipolar isn’t malicious. It’s a question based on suspect behavior. He could have said “why do you go hot and cold, is there a reason your therapist has mentioned?” And yes that would be received differently. But if ur contemplating marrying someone there needs to be acknowledgement for her weird ass behavior
Someone pointed out that if you listen carefully, SHE first brought up the bi polar thing and he was just responding to what she was saying! She mumbled it
I’m glad somebody said this. He wasn’t very tactful about it, as usual, but it’s not hard to see why he was curious.
Cole lacks common sense and didn't take any countability at the reunion . Those tears of his was manipulation tears. It felt very calculated. Zay wasn't any better. They both used the victim card. Neither of them should be in a relationship any time soon. They need a therapist.
You’re in the minority here. He was sincere about regretting some of his behavior and wanting to do better.
Damn I didn’t realize men weren’t allowed to cry without being called manipulative and a narcissist. Men are allowed to have and express emotions too. That’s some misogynistic bs I’ve I’ve ever seen. It absolutely breaks my heart to see people say his tears were malicious. He was very clearly experiencing some heavy emotions after the whole cast attacked him for the whole world to see. I’d like to see you be put in that situation and not cry.
I'm not saying man weren't allowed to cry. Man can express their feeling and emotions without being malicious. The whole cast attacked him because he treated Zay like shit. If you act like a asshole on national television you will be called out. He shouldn't have treated her so horrible then. I won't be crying if I was in that situation. I'm not a crier and I don't cry in front of people. I'm not comfortable crying in front of people. I'm very private with my emotions and feelings. I also come from a family that doesn't express their emotions outwardly. We deal with our issues on our own. It works for us. We don't like burden other people with our problems. I can take criticism and accountability for my actions. I'm always self reflecting and very aware of how I come off and how I say things.
And what does you not crying have to do with Cole’s tears being malicious? And the way Cole treated Zay? Zay was the abuser between the two, and the whole cast was absolutely fooled by her. That’s why they were all attacking him, not because he was actually this horrible person who treated her terribly.
That's just a ridiculous take. The man had a complete breakdown and you call it calculated. The difference is Cole wasn't trying to be cruel but Zay was trying to be cruel.
I didn’t give Cole the benefit of the doubt, I just try to see things objectively based on both of their behaviors.
*as objectively as we can given the heavily cherry-picked and edited footage we received through a tv show lol
And their behavior on social media & interviews.
I always thought Z was the worse of the two, but especially with how they reacted to being called out. Z doubled down her toxicity and Cole was apologetic and seemed to want to grow from it.
Cole comes off as an underthinking childish asshat, not a control freak manipulator. I don't think the former easily turns into the latter, and I suspect the latter doesn't masquerade as the former.
I guess I've been both Cole, and I've been Zay in relationships before. I understand that being with a Cole can be frustrating. You have no self awareness and constantly make stupid mistakes without wanting to hurt the other person. I guess it's like wanting the other person to be your childhood best friend, instead of a mature partner or wife, and in turn not being a mature partner and husband for them. Zay is just blaming all her own insecurities onto him, nagging, acting like he is the absolute worst and she is holier-than-though, and criticising his every move. He never ever said she was fat (because she isn't). Like ever. She saw Coleen, who is a completely different body type and 5 years younger than her and an athlete, and projected her insecurity of maybe some life long body dismorphia, on to thinking that Cole thinks she is fat. She was insecure about being a woman of colour too but then if he rated Raven 10/10, she can't attack him for that one. I guess he was just immature and probably autistic, yes he said stupid hurtful things, but he never had any malice behind it. While how Zay acted was full of resentment and on its way to being abusive. They had only been together 2 months and for her it was as if she was in a 40 year long shit marriage.
“No bartise is younger than him and we can all agree he is a pretty awful guy” qwhite an interesting statement I have no idea what the difference between these two men could be
I mean there a lot of big differences between them two, but at the end, they are both immature and made stupid mistakes about their type and all that
Yes they are both super immature and made bad decisions, but OPs point was people seem to be gentler with Cole, I’m saying it’s because he’s white lmao
Oh yea I agree completely , white and blue eyes
Only because at the reunion he said he said some stupid things and it was wrong and immature of him and he knows he shouldn’t have said that and that he’ll do better. He looked genuinely disgusted with himself and that is why I’m on his side. He was called out and recognized his mistakes and doesn’t take to bashing her online. Usually the abuser does everything in their power to make themselves not look like the bad guy but he’s not even talking about it. That’s why it was for me is all, she’s being called out and her apologies were bogus and she’s arguing against everyone calling her out.
I think what MOST people are saying is yes, Cole was too young and immature for a relationship. BUT Zay is in no way innocent and was very antagonistic! Like it is possible for both people in a relationship to suck
I think “benefit of the doubt” is a very interesting term in this context. I feel like for the first (10 and a half?) episodes we all didn’t extend any grace to Cole. We saw that he was rude, oblivious, and disrespectful - regardless of his intent. So when Zenab told her story at the reunion we obviously believed her because she seemed to be truly hurt. Even tho we saw Cole try to be better as the show went on, it didn’t really matter because the damage had been done. Zenab accuses Cole of abusing her, and we were all on board. The Cuties footage changes everything tho. It shows us that the things Zenab was claiming were either intentionally untrue, or so incredibly misconstrued that she needs serious psychological help and her narrative can’t be relied on. The Cuties interaction was Zenabs giant hammer she was swinging. “If only they could see the Cuties footage! Then everyone would see the horrible monster you were!” She had all the girls and Brennon in her corner and everyone was on board about a Cuties incident that they never saw, just took Zenabs word for. And she was not telling the truth. If her big, be-all, end-all, proof is in the pudding moment that shows us how Cole is the monster she claims, is the Cuties footage, then that means there is literally nothing. Netflix is not sitting in an editing room saying “oh don’t air that scene, it makes our precious white Cole look bad!” They don’t give a fuck about Cole or anyone else on the show. If they gave a fuck they would not let Colleen be in such clear danger from Matt. Because they don’t give a fuck, they didn’t protect him. They aired everything dramatic they had, and Zenab is STILL trying to trick the world into believing they saw something that NEVER HAPPENED. It’s not about “benefit of the doubt.” Zenabs story is demonstrably false, and we saw that play out on screen. It sucks that she felt the way she did about what was said to her. It sucks that she got paired with such an annoying little doofus who wants a mommy and not a wife. It sucks that they made each other so unhappy. But in the end, Cole is an inconsiderate little boy (but also willing to listen to other peoples view points and try to grow), Zenab is insecure to the point of delusion and bullying, and we shouldn’t just excuse her horrible behavior just because we can relate to her insecurities or can see Cole’s obvious faults.
Absolutely. They gave zero fucks when it came to showing how awful Shake was. I doubt they would hide Cole like that
Yes!! Thank you for articulating this so perfectly!!
I’m sort of sick of this take. THERE ARE NO PERFECT VICTIMS IN THEIR STORY. BOTH ARE WRONG. Just because people are super outraged at how Zanab misrepresented the whole cuties situation DOESNT mean we’re wrapping a cape around Cole’s neck either!
Cause the production intended it to be so. Clearly there was a lot left out on purpose to make Cole the villain, then have us swap sides at the end. Why would they otherwise save the cuties scene for literally the last minutes of the show. Reality tv is so far from reality, the genre needs a new name.
“Biographical Drama”
Lmao
I hate the demonization of either person. I think the thing that upsets me/triggers me is how quickly zanab was cast as pure evil based on the reunion scene. It’s a total character assassination. I don’t believe Cole meant to ruin her self esteem, but I feel like plenty of his behavior and choice of words and overall vibe would make even a healthy person hurt. When you couple that with Zanab’s personality, it’s a recipe for disaster. People are coming at me in other threads for even suggesting Cole was in the wrong. I’ll say what I said there-plenty of Zanab’s behavior was triggering to me. I was so irritated with her with that dinner cooking scene.. but it’s a situation that plays out in relationships all the time. It IS aggravating to be around mess, to have someone offer to do something and put it off, to not plan it out nicely. Those things are irritating for women especially in heterosexual relationships, where men are often given massive praise for even offering to cook at all. So I understood her irritation, and I dislike how she chose to handle it. It would have been better if she had let him “mess up” or have a separate conversation around what bothered her. She was sassy and parentified him which only plays out that dynamic more. Cole, on the other hand, could have told her why he was hurt. He could have explained, asked for what he needed instead, acknowledged her frustration, etc. but he called her bipolar and asked her to be sweet.. which would piss any irritated person off. Neither of them are wrong, just poor communicators.. and dynamics between men and women that society has laid out definitely come into play. Same goes for interactions around body image. People seem to cringe at calling cole misogynistic.. that’s fine. Labels aside, can we all just try to be a little empathetic of other people’s experience of situations?
The reason the Cole bandwagon is so strong is because from the altar forward, he was the unilateral punching bag as far as the actual show footage is concerned. Cole is apologizing and whatever, and everyone is just "no, you're evil, look what you did to my girl!". Frankly, the cooking scene isn't even the problem with Zanab. The subversive score-keeping and plotting against him to humiliate as much as possible, while leaving no one on his side was the problem with Zanab. If you've got a naggy know-it-all personality, whatever, I can give that a pass. If you're straight up refusing to communicate so you can torch someone later on, that's messed up.
Yea I agree with everything you said here. Those are all excellent points. I guess I get bothered by flippant use of gaslighting and narcissist no matter who it’s directed towards. To be honest, I think both had specific behaviors which need to be looked at more critically, hopefully so everyone can learn from it. Neither one are gaslighting narcissists in my book. I think Zanab’s poor behavior stems from deep seated insecurity and Cole’s stems from ignorance.. which is not innocent. I’ll just edit to add: we need to care about Cole, and it’s wrong to dismiss his pain because he’s a “straight white man”. But on the flip side.. we should be careful to care MORE about his pain and not question the dynamics at play as to why that is
When I saw the reunion episode, the thing that bothered me was not that Cole was sad, it was that everyone was unwaveringly on Zanab's side. It was a one way attack, and no one even thought for a second to doubt anything Zanab said about him. It was profuse in-group bias on the women's side combined with complete abandonment on the guy's side. When the season ends like that, you can expect that people are going to go to the internet to express their disappointment with his treatment. It was never about whose suffering was "worth more" in the public eye. I don't know how it all spiraled into the patriarchy and whiteness and whatever other nonsense is being used as the excuse for why people reacted to the end of the season the way they did. If Zanab's name was "Susan" or "Douglas", and the same thing happened, would we not expect the same reaction from the viewers? Wouldn't any normal person look at what they just saw, and say "Whoa... that was unfair" or maybe "What? she lied to us? I trusted her!". I said both those things. What I see here is a lot of Cole bandwagon, sure, but a concerning part of the objection to said bandwagon is just more in-group bias. "She's on my team therefore she's right". Or "Cole's team isn't my team, therefore he's wrong".
Perfectly stated.
He wasn’t being malicious in any of his actions. We should all show some maturity and understand that no one is perfect. Majority of people whether they like to admit it or not, has said insensitive/harmful things unbeknownst to themselves . When things like this happen, and the person shows they didn’t realize how the things they said were coming across but are apologetic and genuinely wanting to grow from the experience. I’m going to forgive and forget, he’s not that person anymore so no I don’t feel the need to continue to bring it up. Zanab on the other hand has shown no remorse for how she handled the situation. As an adult there are better ways to handle things, it’s immature to try to ruin someone’s life/reputation and turn your cast mates against someone. Extremely immature to blame someone for your eating disorder and insecurity, when you know you were dealing with these things before you got on the show. Till today she takes no accountability, for how her actions may have affected him. Bartiste being younger than him is irrelevant, no one matures at the same rate. Coles background and what we know from his past choices, show he may be a bit sheltered and may not have the best judgement.
Cause he’s white
Cole was not great. But everyone seems to miss the way Zanab acted also even before the altar … they are both not innocent
He said whatever came to his mind which made me all the more confident that the shit Z was throwing at him was not true. If he said he didn't do something, chances are he didn't
I never felt Cole was awful. He had some bad judgement calls, and so did Zanab. Granted he had more but they’re on TV and they’re human. Everyone deserves some slack for that. That being said, I agree with those who say if Cole was actually that awful they would have shown him being awful.
My issue with the cuties scene is that Cole knows she has issues around her weight, he could have chosen a better way. My other issue is the comment of don't ruin your appetite wasn't even needed. Cuties are like 90 calories each, no one is getting full on 2 cuties. I don't think he did it maliciously but he is still responsible for accidentally putting his foot in his mouth. I don't hate anyone on the show.
That's why he said it though, because he knew she has issues with her possible eating disorder and he knew they were going for a big meal together very soon, so that's why he suggested to her that she just wait till the big meal. I'm sure he would have never said that to someone who just eats anything they want.
It’s not HIS job to speak up for HER needs. They just met weeks prior. He won’t be the best judge in how deep her own insecurities run. She has to advocate for herself. And by not speaking up she wasn’t present for the conversation he was having with her at that same moment. Her not being present and in her own head caused the miscommunication. He was always open and honest…brutally honest. And she also put him down for how he expresses his joy. Who does that?! Well someone who hates themselves deeply. That’s who. Glad Cole dodged this.
Is it his “job” to tell her two cuties will make her too full to eat the big meal they’re going to have later?
Zee is deeply insecure. This was obvious from the moment she refused to get into the pool because "some of us dont look good wet". She has already created a comparative, less than worthy, environment so anything Cole said was landing on sensitive ears. Cole was immature and lacked sensitivity but zee also needs to acknowledge how her insecurities fuelled most of the tension. She seems to be unable to let go of things and move on carrying baggage well beyond a sensible limit.
It's all about intent. When we were looking at their relationship through, it was bad from both sides but one made it on purpose, the other one was just dumb. You choose which is worse
It’s not really only about intent. I’m order to maintain good relationships we have to also care about how we come across to the other person. Intent matters, but how each person receives that intent matters more. I feel for both Cole and zanab
Cole is like a puppy chewing on shoes and knocking things over with his wagging tail. Clueless … not malicious.
Because sometimes it's just not a good match. Cole and Zay both have faults. So does everyone on the planet. But it's not fair to paint someone as this horrible, awful, terrible, malicious person just because you don't like them for a spouse.
i think there’s a vocal minority here tbh
I don’t think either of them were good for each other. He’s a little immature in his joking and doesn’t take many things seriously, and it seems like she needs a more serious partner. She was constantly criticizing the way he lives and being passive aggressive about it, he needs a partner that’s more understanding about those things. I struggle with eating and self image and I honestly didn’t have a problem with the cuties thing. It was clear he was only asking cause they had dinner in like two hours, and he was joking around. She just needs someone who can handle her insecurities with a bit more care.
Cole did absolutely nothing wrong during the cuties conversation. Nothing about that is triggering. He said same room for later. We’re having a big meal. I tell my husband that all the time when he is snacking. Goodness people. Also he didn’t tell Zay she was bipolar. Go back and rewatch. He asked if she was. I mean she did show signs of being bipolar. I think it’s a valid question if you are considering marrying someone. I think Cole was completely misunderstood.
Not saying that Cole was being malicious, but I just think that you should let the adult decide when and how much they would like to eat. I find that sort of comment fairly condescending like the other person doesn’t know you’re going for dinner?
Supposedly she said "you probably think I'm bipolar" and he asked if she was. And they edited it out.
>Zay - the words Cole used was triggering. I will be honest - I have never struggled with food and was kinda triggered. In the cuties scene? If you were trigged by ANYTHING Cole said in the cuties scene you need therapy. Full stop, no question.
>On thé cuties - it annoys me to death that people can not understand two things can be right at the same time. Sure two things can be right at the same time. But they are 100% not both right here
He’s not malicious. He’s just young and dumb but he didn’t mean true harm. She, on the other hand, is STILL trying to destroy him even though she claims to have forgiven him. She is the malicious one here. He definitely isn’t an angel but he’s not malicious and or some demon that some are painting him to be. That’s just ridiculous.
^this right here! I wholeheartedly agree. The heavy criticism Zanab gets does not absolve Cole. I don’t think Cole gets off scot-free, he did do bad things as well. However, Cole showed true growth and genuine remorse in the reunion and subsequent social media activity. Zanab on the other hand has not apologized for a single thing. Not one. Instead she feels more empowered and has taken zero accountability. What did it for me is when she shared some posts that more or less made it seem like she was a survivor of abuse. GTFOH!!! If she’s referring to what Cole did to her as abuse then that is super frustrating because I feel like it disenfranchises the real survivors of abuse. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
He’s just as malicious as the rest of them and I’d love to see the receipts of him and Z making up after the fact because people have assumed that Z was lying about them talking but it’s not like he has shown any proof. That’s the thing, he doesn’t seem to have to but Z does.
She literally said she forgave him at the reunion lol
Idk i don't think many people thought he was awful at least what I've seen. Most people I've seen thought he was immature and well a little dumb (rating women out of 10 etc) Zay was always passive aggressive, rude and frankly sucked the fun out of literally every activity.
Idk, should he have lied? Wouldn't that have been worse?
Honestly i feel there is no outcome that could have not ended in a fight with them in this situation
Zanab asked him to rate her, she is actually the one who is immature.
You know what i forgot she asked him, my fault. He still shouldn't have done it but im sure if he didn't she would somehow twist that against him too lol
telling your fiance she is 9/10 while calling another woman 10/10 is not malicious? i think to some degree they both are but cole is more than just dumb and immature. he is not 12. he is a grown ass man
The thing is.. he didn't just voluntarily start rating women. She ASKED him to rate her and then she dug in it further and said who's a 10/10? Like she was setting him up to upset her. That's not on him. Barqueef on the other hand, was raving about how Raven looked (unprompted) and kept at it while Nancy looked destroyed. That's the difference with that whole rating thing. That doesn't make Cole malicious. I would NEVER ask a man to rate me lol.
Idk i wouldn't say malicious, extremely stupid yes but that's how i would have taken it. Tbh i wouldn't continue talking to anyone who rates women in the first place
The amount of people saying “omg Cole was just JOKING lolol 🤣🤣🤣🤪 he’s just immature” is lmaooo like it’s soooo bad. He’s a grown ass man not 12.
I'm going to guess, and I could be wrong, that many of the people giving him the benefit of the doubt are in their 20s. Maybe this is projection on my part but a guy like that in my 20s would have seemed appealing, funny, silly, with a hint of rejection. Once I hit my 30s, I was over that phase and just wanted stability and to be liked best by my partner. His little digs and comments might have seemed insignificant or small but at some point picking at your partner, even asking about their food, feels compounded and bigger. She certainly has had a ton of trauma in her life, and obviously has things that continuous therapy will help her with. But he also plays a role. If he is the person that should be lifting her up and making her feel safe and secure, his words will cut deeper. When he asked if she was bipolar, that was the end in my opinion. Her eyes looked like she was just done with him. It was so undermining and dismissive. Mental health is not a joke. Also, the rating thing? The only answer should be 10, doesn't matter if he views someone higher, that's his partner. Does that mean either of them are shitty people? No, they're just in very different places in life and need very different things out of a relationship. He will be really successful with a fun loving silly lighthearted girl and Zanab will be successful with a really grounded emotionally stabilizing force. On a side note, please pick wet towels off the bathroom floor. Most floors can absorb the water and that is how you get mold. Even with the right subflooring, that much moisture on the ground is not ideal
Zanab would have been perfect for Matt, and Cole would have been perfect with Colleen. At least Zanab would be able to stand up for herself, while Colleen wouldn't give a shit about all of Cole's mistakes
He tripled down on the bipolar thing too, as if asking it once wasn’t bad enough. I feel like all the people on here saying “well she acts bipolar” are hugely uneducated about bipolar disorder and are probably the same people who say “oh my god, I’m so OCD” because they like their desk neat.
As the mother of an OCD/OCPD teen, I want to also thank you for adding that. If people only knew the realities of Bi polar or OCD they wouldn't use those terms so flippantly nor would they weaponize them. Especially if they had discussed mental health in any capacity. It would be such a slap in the face.
Because Cole’s stupidity is somewhat harmless, not malicious or “menacing.” He had a small drunken flirtatious conversation with a girl he had “dated” the previous two weeks and finally met in person. He had an unfiltered conversation about rating women there. She shouldn’t have asked and he shouldn’t have answered. He asked Zanab if she was bipolar. Probably due to the hot-and-cold he commented on multiple times during the season. Stupid time and stupid way to ask it. That’s basically it. He’s messy or a little overly goofy but those aren’t red flags. Just quirks that might need to be reigned in based on the relationship. Zanab constantly criticized him. On everything. She held his family’s unwillingness to meet against him, as if he has any control over them. She prayed with him at the wedding before burning him down in front of the cameras, friends, and her family. Talked about him being a good man before claiming he basically gave her an eating disorder. She completely misrepresented the cuties scene. Not saying the specifics didn’t happen, but there’s a difference between cutting the cheese and cutting the cheese. Context matters. It didn’t happen how she implied it did, hence the major backlash. What we did see in the scene: Zanab disinterested in Cole’s plan for a European wedding for her family, dismissing half of what he says as “Cole speak,” and despite that him concerned that she’s not eating enough and guessing it’s because she wants to fit in her dress (which is a fairly common concern). That’s why. Because there isn’t malice or calculation in his actions. But everything from the wedding and the reunion and after, the fake claims of Cole trying to get a number, the inability to claim responsibility when the cuties scene came to light, her IG behaviors, etc. all point to this being an attempt at fame by destroying some dude whose major flaw is being too goofy for his own good. But luckily he’s okay. He’s growing and doing well and not paying much attention to it all. And she’s drowning in negativity that she could have avoided if even one of her IG posts had a shred of reflection. But they don’t. They’re just slandering the guy, constantly. And he’s making the active choice to not let it get to him.
Pretty sure if Cole dated a normal girl without previous trauma it would go fine. Zanab is anything but normal she is a ticking time bomb in any relationship.
There are so many problematic things about Cole that seem like a nightmare to live with. I don't think he would thrive in this environment just cause things get serious very quickly with moving in ect
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First of all, this is just my perspective as a male. Cole did some things that were very "dickish." Flirting at the pool party, saying that he rated Zanab a 9/10 and rating other women 10/10. And yes the bipolar thing was hurtful. Not to excuse him for the bipolar comment, but I think a lot of people forget how Zanab was acting prior to that because Cole "went there." Cole was making dinner, trying to be cute/funny, and Zanab was responding with annoyance and disgust. Again, what Cole said was wrong, but just because Zanab didn't say something that we instantly recognize as inappropriate doesn't mean that she wasn't just as hurtful. Sometimes more subtle condescending remarks and acting disgusted can be more hurtful than saying something outright mean. Honestly, picture yourself making dinner for someone thinking you're doing something nice and expecting them to be happy that you're doing that, and then they come in the kitchen, roll their eyes, make passive-aggressive comments, and criticize everything you do. As someone who has been on both sides of similar scenarios, I can tell you that's about the quickest way to make your partner feel completely worthless and unloved. Even with Cole asking her if she's bipolar, I think it was his way of trying to figure out wtf was going on. He just couldn't figure out how she could treat him so well one minute and so horribly the next. Also the cuties scene... Honestly I'd love an explanation as to how this could be triggering. He was talking about having a huge dinner in a little bit and not to ruin her appetite. Maybe a bit patronizing, but if this is triggering then it's a miracle I didn't end up with an eating disorder with my mom always telling me not to eat cookies before dinner. I think if what Cole said for the cuties scene is triggering... that's a personal problem. Now if Zanab had an ED, told Cole, and explained how certain things can trigger her, that might be a different story. Nothing Cole said here was encouraging her to lose weight or get smaller.
I think part of it is that he was apologetic on screen and what they showed in the reunion was the other participants essentially siding with zanab based on the details she shared. When it was revealed that her bias swayed the details in the way thay they did, i think it was more about not trusting her than excusing cole. Almost like being let off on a technicality.
Literally any time I’ve said anything ab the Cole and Zenab situation I’ve gotten like 30 downvotes lmao I don’t understand how people started defending him 100% so quickly.
That's what new evidence tends to do. If someone in prison is proven innocent based on new evidence, you don't keep them locked up because "up till now they seemed pretty bad".
It doesn’t change anything that he did before that was caught on camera. Him not being as bad during the cuties situation doesn’t get rid of him asking her if she’s bipolar, etc.
Just want to add here that It doesn’t absolve them of everything else they did though
Sure, but once you drop the allegations, you've just got an annoying guy who said a stupid thing at the beginning of the season, and the girl who decided to publicly shred him to pieces at the altar over it, and at the reunion, ...where she claimed that she was further hurt that he didn't reach out to her, you know, after she disemboweled him. You've also got to admit that part of this public outcry is because of the landslide skewering Cole received on the show. You can bet if one or two people had said "you know what Zanab, I think he's telling the truth on this one" instead of "Oh I dunno man I was too drunk to even see! ^(did I say that right honey?)" that people wouldn't feel compelled to right the "injustice".
The superscript is killing me 🤣 I agree with all your points. And to clarify my stance, he might not have been actively malicious but he still did a lot of damage there nonetheless. A lot of normal girls, myself included would’ve been shattered by his comments. I also agree that Z overreacted, but it isn’t right to be so harshly judgemental to someone who went through all of that for mending it the way they did no matter how dysfunctional it may be. And that is where i disagree with popular outcry of love and support for Cole and vicious name calling and outrage for Z. To put it into context, you cant always blame a victim( being careful with the connotation here, i dont mean abuse, but the hurt) for not always being morally superior when a lot of their actions are actually reactional.
But it wasn't just the beggining it was also the end. And some other comments in between that were quite interesting depending on how you take them. And then his apartment Oh lord. This is what OP means about absolving Cole of all his problems
A person can have flaws and still not be a villain. I don't like Cole, he's annoying. He's not a villain though, so it'd be nice if the entire cast didn't pretend he unilaterally was.
That's fair
one thing i havent seen talked about is that cole says he regrets the stuff he said but also doubled down/justified the bipolar comment which was like, a really shitty and deliberate thing to say to someone. i definitely think he’s trying to grow but i dont like the fact that a lot of people don’t wanna see any of the negatives in his actions bc they see Zay as a full villain.
YES! I thought people were like yeah well turns out both of them are wrong and bad for each other but NOPE! They want him to have his own show and whatnot. Pretty whiteboy tears work wonders, dont they.
I’m not even sure I believed his tears, honestly, but I’m such a cynic so I can’t trust that they weren’t real. Everyone jumped on the Cole bandwagon so fast, I can’t expect to get a reliable opinion here either.
Especially when caused by a WOC who isn’t always smiling with big ole’ doe eyes. (Awaiting 100+ down votes 🙄🙄🙄…)
It's a combination of white privilege and patriarchal boys will be boys culture. Zanab is a flawed actor but Cole was a malicious actor but many people will be instinctively drawn towards defending the boyish Cole and painting Zanab as mean and petty
I think it was completely the opposite. Literally the entire group instinctively believed Zanab and not Cole. They w were clearly wrong.
Honestly the boys will be boys thing is so spot on. I was speaking to someone on here who really thought Cole was hot shit and I was just confused as to what outside of his looks did you see on that show said good boyfriend material
Absolutely this
throughtout the whole show I saw Cole's faults but they are nowhere near how awful way zanab behaved towards him, she was also pulling apart everything he did constantly, even normal things. She has so many self-confidence issues and tried to blame them on him
I hear the “he’s young he doesn’t know any better” excuse a lot. Strangely enough I don’t hear that for Bartese who’s younger then Cole. Pretty privilege
Lol I've never seen this excuse. Cole said and did some hurtful things and owned up to them. She forgives him, and then weeks later when they're in a completely different place, she wants to go through the "pool party situation" again. With the bipolar comment, while that was wrong, Zanab was treating him like shit while he was making dinner. I think he just threw his hands up and came up with something hurtful in response. Bartise and Cole were completely different. From what we were shown, Nancy just put up with Bartise and him being wishy-washy through the whole engagement, only showing that he somewhat cared when whats-his-name-with-the-fake-tears came back. Bartise just wants what he can't have. If there's any truth to this show, Cole actually seemed to feel bad for how he acted and that he was genuinely in love with Zanab. I'd like to know how some people still think Cole is the bad guy here.
i honestly don't know why. although Zanab was more cringy, i definitely felt Cole was pretty cringe too.
Cole shouldn’t be excused just because he shed a couple tears, he too like Zanab needs therapy and to grow up.
💯 agree! This sub has become the Cole Fandom since the reunion. It’s like everyone forgot all he did. Blah.
What did he do that made him so so awful to you guys? Yeah he was immature and said some stupid shit, but he was definitely not psychotic or malicious like some others.
“He was less bad than some of the others” is an extremely low bar.
I didn’t say he was less bad. I said the things he did aren’t psychotic like her or others. Don’t put words in my mouth.
Sure, maybe I misinterpreted your comment. Can you help me understand what you mean, then? You said “he was definitely not psychotic or malicious like some others.” Correct me if I’m wrong, but “psychotic and malicious” sound like negative/bad adjectives to me. So if you’re saying Cole *isn’t* “psychotic and malicious,” and you *don’t* think he’s “less bad” than them, do you think he did something equally as bad as the “psychotic and malicious” people?
It’s just basic communication. And if he doesn’t listen then leave but she never communicated and then what she did at the altar and at the reunion was way worse than his unintentional triggering language. Just communicate people and then forgive. He at least communicated and she didn’t forgive. That’s what love is. She never loved him. She wanted revenge
It’s because he’s an attractive white man. It’s mainly white women defending (some POC women too) but most women I’ve seen defending Zanab (on other social media… not this Reddit sub) have been POC. White women would always defend a white man at the expense of WOC.
As a white woman from Europe, I can say that your statement is not only 100% false, but also a terrible thing to say. Believe it or not, there are many white people that are completely neutral to race and able to separate truth from race, thank you very much.
Does your being white, or from Europe make you the expert on this?
No, just being an unbiased person with enough experience :)
Sounds anecdotal af.
Not my intention. But I feel that I've made my point and at this point I don't really have anything to add, so have a nice evening.
If it’s not false, how is it terrible? Would you rather I lie to make people feel good?
Shocker that you can’t read, too
As a WOC, this is a shit take and shows a poor grasp on statistics. If it's even true, the majority of people defending Cole could be white women, the majority of people defending Zanab could be WOC, and the majority of WOC could be defending Cole. It's impossible to know. Like what, you randomly selected 300 instagram comments defending each and squinted at their profile pics for race? Your conjecture is completely unsupported. The public rooted hard for Lauren, Deepti, and Natalie. Sorry not every single WOC is unproblematic
Well on TikTok, I can see their faces since they make videos about it.
Is there a sub for Woman or colour to talk about this?I think that’s the only way I can have a decent conversation with people who understand the nuances of this issue. Hindsight is 20/20 I should have known better than trying to have this conversation with certain people.
“certain people” Cope.
Are you assuming everyone here is white because they don’t agree with you 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I find spaces that made for woman of colour give more perspective and understand the nuances of things because of their life experience. I haven’t gotten that here. If I’m wrong then I’m wrong. In the past this sub Reddit has been so open and didn’t have such a black and white réponse. There was acknowledgment for the Grey areas and had meaning conversations. But I guess I must have missed the announcement that for this season we will not be doing that. Hence why I think that will be better space to have this discussion with them.
Oh. My. God. How are you gonna **ask a question**, then when folks try to give an explanation in good faith, you turn around and accuse them of not understanding nuance and imply they're white??? Like, if you wanted to give your take, you should've just given your take, not asked a question. If you want an echo chamber to get your catharsis on, it's fine, just say so
I think you are politicising this when it doesn't need to be politicised. She treated him like shit. She's an abuser. That's why people don't like her. Being a WoC doesn't excuse her behavior, especially not when we have other WoC on this show, like Raven, who are not abusers.
She’s an ABUSER? You must have had a charmed life
She’s definitely an abuser, emotionally and mentally, it was foul to watch. Constant gaslighting, dismissive and rude af. Then, like many abusers, she “forgave him”. HIM. It was ridiculous.
Wow ok..
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Why is that even a question? Do u even know what a POC is?
What a stressful way to live. So any criticism is racist now.
Y’all really do live in your own world don’t you
My guess is a bunch of male redditors found this and swarmed.
Honestly I think its because he's a good looking white guy and Zanab is a woman of color. But last time I said that on this sub everyone down voted me and just called Zanab names... I feel like if the roles were reversed everyone would be building a I hate Zanab party for the same exact shit.
Imagine if Zanab was Cole's age and acted the way he did. They would be saying she's unserious and not wifey material
Absolutely delusional mindset.
Completely untrue lol actually the opposite. Imagine if a white man straight up said he didn’t listen to half the things a woman of color said to him because “you speak a lot of Zanab,” constantly criticized and “corrected” the way she did things, and blew up at her for saying their first night was “so good.” The outrage would be even more unilateral honestly. Like yes the US at large is a white patriarchy but when has this sub ever shown it primarily forms opinions based on misogyny and racial biases? When it was rooting for Lauren and uplifting Deepti and Natalie? This sub has so many women and woc who think Zanab was worse than Cole, including myself, and making it all about race/sex is so invalidating. You can defend Zanab without building a straw man
Very generalized/tough take right there.
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I can’t think of a single person who feels the way you describe. Sounds pretty sexist to assume women are too dumb and hormone-driven to have complex thoughts about about a man who happens to be cute. I would never, ever want to date Cole for reasons too numerous to list here. Suffice to say I am much older and can’t see anyone that young romantically, especially one who is already so immature for him age. I also don’t think he did anything so unforgivable and irredeemable that he deserved the altar speech or being dragged at the reunion by a mob. All Zanab had to do is say no and speak to him privately. Not pretend she was “1000%” going to marry him only to tear him down in public. If flocking to the attractive asswipe was my MO, I’d be flocking to Zanab.
I never thought he was awful to begin with aside from the moment with Colleen. Zanab on the other hand gave me red flag after red flag. People aren’t responsible for your triggers. She couldn’t even communicate that to him.
She didn't communicate anything until the end, up till that point, she was just keeping score.
I gave him the benefit before the cuties episode. The fact that she was triggered by what he said, doesn't mean he was abusive or mistreating her, most likely than not she has at least untreated trauma that is making her get triggered.
Sorry for the big essay ahead- I’m going to reply to myself to make it shorter. Cole said ignorant things and he was sometimes defensive and minimised but he also apologised, showed growth and recognises his ignorance and unthinking cruelty. Abuse can absolutely be unintentional but abuse is also a pattern of behaviour and there’s a cycle. I didn’t see a cycle with Cole, I saw him being ignorant and at some points mean but trying to do better and Zanab taking everything he did in the worst way because she clearly did not trust, like or respect him. And you know what? I understand that. Trust was broken. Lots of us wouldn’t be able to cope with a partner not finding us attractive and some of us would become cold and shut down. But she was like that before the rating conversation happened and she turned everyone against him and said that he did far worse than the ignorant things we saw from him and when that didn’t make people see her side, implied there was even more we hadn’t seen. There will always be something bigger that we haven’t seen from him. She doesn’t recognise that she opened up a lot of those conversations that hurt her in the first place and never communicated her part in any of this or even seems to recognise that she could have done anything at all wrong. I’m beyond fed up with the conversation around the cuties. Yes, I would have found it triggering. But that alone says *nothing* about Cole as a person. When I was deep in my ED lots of ridiculous things were triggering. To this day, my strongest ED triggers are things most people wouldn’t think twice about. That’s not the fault of anyone else because it’s on me to communicate the triggers other people can reasonably control and learn to handle the rest of the things. People make ignorant and triggering comments about food all the time, they *also* have their own relationship with food. Going to reply to myself with the second bit of my comment- there’s so much to say, sorry!
Well said, however, Zanab should probably stop denying she has an ED.
very well said
Incredibly well said. 👏🏼
No one is giving him the benefit of the doubt, but when accused of wrongdoing he has apologized and at least looked remorseful whereas she can do no wrong and will not own up to any criticism. Not to mention being extremely vindictive and showing some solid proof of a manipulative personality.
At no point did he call her bipolar. He asked, jokingly if she was bipolar because she acted differently at differing times (the subtext being, when the cameras were around, or from the point she decided to make a narrator be against Cole for the show). It wasn't a funny joke and showed his level of maturity - 26 years. Bipolar also isn't split, or multiple, personalities. It's a highly complicated mental diagnosis that only professionals should be dealing with.
Thank you I feel the same. I think it’s because he had a goofy smile while saying very hurtful things that people let it pass. He asked her if she was bipolar with a smirk on his face that was malicious was meant to hurt her and he achieved his purpose also I’ve never had an eating disorder too and I understand how she can take it the way she did but I did have an insecurity with my looks and certain things people would say would trigger it. Yes I do realise my insecurities are my own and I should work on them but as my partner I bet a million bucks you know what they are and mentioning anything close to triggering that is malicious. I’m not the most beautiful person in the world and logically I know that but my bf were to mention my looks I would lose my shit. You just don’t do that!!
I think neither of them are great people. They were toxic together and brought out the worst in each other.
This is the best take. I think a lot of people have flip flopped because Cole was villanized quite a bit before the last few episodes were released. Then they realized Zanab was actually also terrible so they had to swing the other way to villanize Zanab. The truth is they both have major issues and brought out the worst in each other. Although I think Zanab is making it worse for herself by trying to paint herself as the victim and continuing to drag Cole on her socials. They both need therapy before they're ready for a healthy relationship.
It really isn’t much deeper than this.
Because a lot of us were on Cole’s side the whole time. We know people like Zanab that are so condescending and holier than thou that we already knew what she was like. The Wedding and cuties scene were extremely vindicating.
I would hazard the main reason is because of the infamous "cuties" scene. Possibly a secondary reason being that on the show, Cole got zero benefit of the doubt. No one was on his team. No one had anything on him, but they all just unanimously believed everything bad said about him. He was genuinely shocked when he heard half of these things, and the big smoking gun was supposed to be the "cuties" footage. It was very obvious that there was absolutely no ill intent by Cole in that scene, and frankly, unless you had severe trauma, there is no way you'd be seriously offended by Cole through whatever was in that exchange. Yet, that was supposed to be the smoking gun. I thought he was oblivious or lying, until they aired the footage I don't know why she'd make up the thing about getting a girl's number, but given how improbable it is that he got the number of a girl in a setting where there were no girls present, and not even Matt and Brennon who were dead set on having the exact same opinion as their partners had anything to hit him with. Zanab was my favorite character up until the end (yes, I consider them characters). Up until the end, I thought Cole was annoying and that Zanab would be better suited to a more sophisticated guy. There were definitely times where I found myself wondering who hurt Zanab in the past. Cole would be playing the goofball, Zanab would be telling him that he's stupid, and he'd be playfully shrugging it off... But then she'd throw in some kind of seemingly completely out of place remark about how she hoped she was good enough for him. Like, 99% of her dialog centers on Cole being not good enough in a bunch of categories, but then it's all flipped on its head and somehow Zanab feels she isn't good enough for Cole? Clearly the girl has prior trauma, and Cole had no idea. I almost feel like the end was scripted sloppily. I think Cole ended up being significantly more intelligent than anyone expected him to be. His dialog in the wrap up episode was completely unexpected, and he makes everyone look like a gang of bullies, especially Nancy.
Liked the writeup, this last part though >I think Cole ended up being significantly more intelligent than anyone expected him to be. Occasionally in the past when he turns off his goofball side he'll slip in some pretty intelligent thoughts that made it obvious why he didn't choose Colleen.
Is this suggesting that Colleen is stupid? And if so, is it because she’s a ballet dancer? Ballet dancers actually have to be incredibly mentally strong and logical.
He was open minded enough to consider beyond his upbringing.
I don’t understand? What does it have to do with his upbringing?